Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Congressional relations

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I'd like for you to have a hold of Christ.

I, uh, the Sapphire thing on the, uh, have you read it by any chance on that December 13th?

No.

Well, take a look at it.

You can have a copy.

I'll have a copy of it myself, half the time.

Uh, uh, yeah.

Uh, well, I'll give it to you.

Okay.

Wow.

falling over Jefferson, which is too obvious.

I mean, you can't fall over Jefferson without saying something about Washington.

You know what I mean?

I know why he's doing it.

He wants to, you know, to build up the idea.

And I think Jefferson's a great fall, and so forth.

But I mean, that's great that you can't do it so obviously.

And second, she's a field worker.

I'd like her for just another crack, an entirely different,

Then why don't you see if Andrews could try, he could take this and give a thousand words, all in one thousand words.

Let's try, let's try another one.

That may give me some talking points that maybe I'll try to get the goddamn thing in my head.

Did you see Andrews' stab at summarizing here?

Actually, I read an American thing he did.

He took that and did a pull-together, basically what you said, and then he did a second version, kind of a spanning, and then a third version, pre-wheeling, that maybe, well, I don't know.

I figured out now that he might want this, take a look at this, and then try this version of what he thinks ought to be set in 3rd of July.

I mean, something will be...

Good.

OK.

That's the best move we've made.

He knows exactly how to

and how to be strong, do as well for them, unless the other factors lie.

I mean, I don't care what they do.

I'm cracking this in line with the fact that he doesn't achieve economic spokesman.

That's too bad.

He isn't.

He can never be.

What's got to be understood there is he's got to revert to the role that he belongs in, which is economic advising.

He's got to start analyzing, looking at options.

Tesla, he doesn't go in and out and announce policies.

But he shouldn't announce the policies.

He's not going to announce the policies.

It's all there is to it.

This speech-making by people is not a good idea.

We've got too many people running around, popping off about the economy.

Well, we've asked him to make speeches.

You know, I'm sorry if we had to argue there last night.

That would have been a good one not to have you there.

Yeah.

Because there's no reason to have you there.

Goddamn, he simply had to sell other agency heads.

I think that's the case.

He's not an agency head, you know?

He's independent.

Those were our, before we put, all right, I did that on, but I, as I saw it, I thought, oh, boy, I messed up.

No, but we couldn't have un-invited him.

That's what he was saying.

But you'd be able to comment and get captured.

Yep.

on one thing.

I noticed that there's a leak, maybe a leak that says that sources inside the court are saying what the courts are going to do.

Now, that's one thing that's never happened.

I mean, the court, that's probably one of the left-wingers.

You see the Jews, or maybe most of those Christian Jews, or on the very left, they're going to be from Harvard and all that sort of thing.

Now, I want to see you close it.

get somebody to wrap that, I mean, somebody who's interested in the court, to wrap that kind of thing, but they've got to, I mean, because it might affect the court the other way.

You see my point?

Yep.

And somebody to crack what's this leaking, this unconscionable, even leaking from the court, see?

I gave all that right away.

So, I don't know, I'd rather guess the leaps are correct.

Could you come in now to talk about that thing, or are you ready?

Fine.

On that July 3rd thing, we were, the original plan was to have about 50 people, you know, sitting in there as, uh, 50 devices, uh, uh,

to have someone there, but the real question, and the only question that matters really, is whether you feel it would be easier for you and work better for you to talk to an audience, or whether it's easier for you to just work to the camera, not to think.

So that smattering of applause.

That's right, not that thing.

I don't want a smattering of applause after each one of those people speaks.

Nobody else should be there.

She has to be either 500 or, you know, we could build it up to 700 or something, but you can't get close.

Well, if you can't get close out of that, it sounds so difficult.

But don't you agree?

I kind of do, yeah.

Originally, we thought it would be a good idea.

There's no good for me to have people to talk to.

I do better when I don't have people to talk to.

Because unless you're going to go for it out, you know, it won't be any longer.

I think somehow...

the telecast comes out better.

And here, here's a house full of the archives that have been beaten their hands off by anybody.

It's like doles of glass hockey.

So we've got to talk about a couple of things.

And I wonder if maybe that might be a good one to show in California.

You know, for that matter, we've got to make a decision on the convention, which might hurt.

He still is popular.

Yeah, I don't think that is.

And I'll be incorrect if this all weighed in, because I just wrote out the stock tips.

I mean, I have only because the people say you were unanimous against it.

Well, that was our, you know, the non-national committee.

I don't know what the national committee's position is.

Yeah.

Well, the Midwest, they're afraid of it.

I don't know.

Maybe for a half hour before I leave.

And you come in with him, Mitchell.

In with him every time, you know what I mean?

Mitchell's busy this week, of course.

Somebody's wetting those, too.

I think we'll have to get him out there.

I think he got a little used to it in Kansas.

But he certainly did the blunts up around last night.

It was loading on air, I saw that.

Half the post office department was there.

We had at least, we had eight, there were 16 post office departments.

It was interesting, I was down next to a lady whose husband is an undersecretary or something, assistant secretary of the post office, and she

She and her husband both have been born and raised in Washington, but he'd been with Westinghouse Company for 23 years in Pittsburgh and Kansas City.

What's the fact that they didn't come in to the government with us?

She'd never been to dinner at the White House.

And she said all her neighbors got out on the street and waited, sent them off for dinner last night.

And it's like, how do you just forget about that type of stuff?

She said she called her in-laws, and she's older, like 50 years old or something.

She called her in-laws, and...

Those men will be here tonight.

They will see you.

And the thing we make is to keep repeating.

That's why I told you from now on, there ain't gonna be no more repeating.

No state department or others that accept the people that have to be there.

We're gonna start just having people that's gonna mean something to you.

And the few other events that we have between now and next year are gonna make a lot of money.

And that's true of outside people, too.

You get, because I kind of mean that.

You guys like John Kendall, they like to be around your eyes.

There's, here's, there's many, many people.

Yeah, I think so.

But then you get some other soul from Philadelphia who's never been here.

It's the biggest thing.

Oh, it's a great thing.

I saw that Blunt family afterwards.

I had arranged a dinner for three weeks.

That was the only evening that, because I'm going away, of people who would have me at their houses.

I told Henry you mentioned it.

at the dinner last night that was too bad.

No, I felt terrible about it, but I...

Consideration for the postmaster.

I didn't learn about it until last Wednesday when you had done it.

I couldn't change it anymore.

But you saw it, and it was going to be pretty good.

They were...

I tell you, he was absolutely floating on air about your toast and how generous you had been to him.

And... And his...

He had his daughters.

He brought his daughters around, and...

and his son.

And I tell you, I've never seen a happier family.

And Dave Packard came by afterwards, and he thought it was a great occasion, gracious.

We want to make a little tribute to the Undersecretary of Defense, which is David.

Of course, he's been here many times, but others haven't.

Some of them haven't.

And those assistant secretaries from the Post Office have never been, never will be, most of them secretaries.

For dinner, yes, that's right.

Oh, we had it for Christmas.

They've all had a church Christmas party or something.

They've been in the White House.

And there were some whose men at my dinner and tea and day were all impressed by the way these people were babbling about you.

Well, on bill, why don't you work it out and get him out there if you want.

Harryman came in this morning.

I tell you, the Democrats are really worried.

First of all, he was wailing about the papers.

He said, you know, that's an attack on the president.

It's not an attack on the Democrats.

That's exactly what I said to him.

I said, just say that.

And he said, he just wants us to know that if we are thinking of negotiating,

If we can end the war.

But he's worried.

He thinks something is going on.

He's such a partisan, you know, that he must think something's going on.

Well, the leaks must be out.

Let me ask you a couple of things, Henry.

Maybe a couple of quick things.

What significance at all is there in this?

Is there a

reading the press, of course, every day.

They said the huge North Vietnamese were fencing an I-cord.

Now, the things I've seen, the things I've indicated to sisters, I think it's over.

There's no damn huge fence in this country.

There's no fence right now at all.

There's some reports that they may be building up, but even that we can't confirm through our source.

You know, the casualties this week were 21.

That's a...

They won't play them if they work.

Colson told me they aren't like the catchers, I don't believe it.

They hardly ever do.

They'll probably say 21.

But I can tell from Harriman that the type is...

He said, for example, that if McGovern ran against you, he'd back you.

He said he's decided...

He won't do that either, but... Because he thinks he's too far left?

That's right.

And...

I'm just using him as a parameter, Mr. President.

I told him.

He said, you know, I don't remember how he's getting so jittery, and he said to me last night at this dinner, it's better than one thing I did at home.

On the therapy side, I gave Rogers a lot of credit on that opium poppy thing.

Okay.

Something else.

Of course.

And Hanley did carry it out to me all at Franklin Colony and

Well, if they had to be...

They had to be brutalized to do it, but...

I'll say we brutalized them.

They...

They should get that credit.

I had that... Well, I don't know what about this told you.

About the Indian ambassador at the dinner last night.

She got that.

Well, they've been telling him at State that we've been stamping arms, eh?

To them?

That we've been, that State wants to stamp arms to Pakistan, but the White House won't let it, and arms are cheaper.

And, uh, but it's... Now, I've worked out, Mr. President, an amendment which we could fairly live with, which is a slightly, which is a little... Well, if you thought of, though, if you thought of what the alternative is,

else can we just let it lapse well it's an interesting tactical decision mr president if you let it last on the whole i think this amendment that i've got here we can live with uh it's uh that won't hurt us and uh it's such a pullback for them that if we could get that accepted and get it all quieted down it would be good

On the other hand, there's something to be said if we hit them in the eyes in the middle of a filibuster with a Chinese announcement.

It takes out the phrase, terminated the earliest practicable date of military operations.

It takes out the phrase prompt withdrawal, just orderly withdrawal.

I'm just going to give him a chance while I'm here.

Okay.

It's, what do I say to you?

You can say to a bear that we are, that Don Cook is delivering, what's his name?

Cook, that Cook is delivering to him, that Cook is delivering to him the version, the only version that we can accept.

It's not that different from what they have.

It just takes out one phrase.

And I will call Stenner's and I'll call.

Mr. President, I've risked a fight for two or three weeks.

Here is the one that they have already had.

So that you can see the difference.

I took out this, the provision we made.

I took out the unit back from the day of all military operations.

No, Mr. President.

And instead of saying, in order, it was just in order.

Well, yeah, that's sort of...

But they say, they always say that, Mr. President.

I'm just trying to see what the temper is.

I mean, he's in my home.

throughout the country.

They'll all come back throughout the country.

Let's get that in hand for business.

This won't hurt us too much.

Because that's, in effect, what we've already offered.

The president is making a few more changes in this thing.

It's not a go until he's clear.

Will you make sure that they don't distribute it?

Will you also make sure that nobody gets the idea they're supporting it?

Not supporting it, that's right.

The other is not in place.

That has to be added in it.

But we are not, under any circumstances, supporting it.

We're not.

Hold on, and the governor will have the text.

You'll may have one in a little while.

Thank you.

On balance, probably not letting it.

I look hard enough.

You know that the Soviet cosmonauts all got killed?

Oh, sure.

It's already been prepared.

The idea that the whole world admires, encourages, explores the unknown, and the American people, the giant people of the world, trust America.

That's the message I want to send.

The whole world admires us.

the greatest explorers of the unknown, the American people who are the people who are discussing the hard and the deep and the selfish.

Got it.

We'll go out and get them the next hour.

I'll do that as soon as I can.

You might say this, but he's not going to read it.

He's just sending his personal message.

Can you get me in battle with the Dupree community, please?

Why do we say by an early date, all United States forces?

The weaker it is, the weaker it is, the better I like it.

The best would be as soon as practicable after.

As soon as?

As practicable after.

As soon as practicable.

Of course, you do realize that you've got a conference that will handle this life and change it some more.

And I'd say continue to negotiate with the government off the account.

Continue to negotiate.

One thing that Harriman was in to say was that he prayed

We would not blow the opportunity to see Le Docteur the way we blew it last time he was there.

So you think we blew it?

Yeah, well, he was there for three months when I saw him four times.

And he thought we didn't see him.

That's right.

Some time in the not-too-distant future.

Late, late, I should say.

Now.

When the crisis was late, late, I told him that.

Now, late, I must say this much.

He's been honorable.

Just against the war.

I don't like it.

I don't consider it the other way around.

How so?

He's terrible.

I don't know.

I was sitting here with the president, and he wanted me to express to you personally his sorrow and what happened to the customers.

as to the, uh, to, uh, to address it.

But he wanted me to, to make sure that, in fact, the president was there when we were sent off.

So...

I want you to know that this message is not just the usual one.

I indicated it myself.

And if you're taking me up, my daughter, Julie, is in Athens, you know, with, and she called me on the phone, got me up at 7.30 this morning, and to say that she had just heard it.

So we just want you to know that wherever brave men are in the world, our deepest sympathy goes to them.

And we know that your burden will continue as ours will.

Remember, we had three, and we lost two one time.

But we just want you to know that this is from the heart.

Right?

The thing that you point out to your government, as I said, that my daughter called, and these are little personal things we won't put out in our formal message, but I want you to know that, yeah.

Right?

What do you think of that?

Well, they were in good shape yesterday, and they were dead when they arrived.

Maybe they were up too long.

There may be mysteries.

We don't know.

Yeah, there was one message that came back.

It said, one guy said, we've been out here too long.

We've been out here a long time.

One guy said, I'm on the surface.

Maybe they were trying to exploit it when they came back and all of a sudden they opened up and they're dead.

I guess too many people know it.

They don't know what they're doing.

That's very bad, but the order to go with a practical draw line as soon as practical after a major ceasefire in a period.

Put the order to draw all your 9th Street forces.

And it's basic to be negotiated as soon as practical.

How about that?

I think this is vacant.

This is... Would you call it there?

Or you could come and send your vote, or I could call it.

Yeah, I'll tell you.

I wouldn't like to do it for myself.

Yeah, I'll get you money.

There is one version that we are sending over to him, which is, if that's modified, we'd rather have nothing.

I don't think you should be involved.

Julie also asked about something else which I thought would be able to ask about.

They happen to be that they will be staying at the embassy his ship will be in over the 4th of July.

Tosca's having his annual 4th of July reception, of course, while they're at the embassy.

They will be staying.

And he's asked David to come.

Now.

She should come.

How do you think she... A few years ago.

A few years ago.

After those things.

Yeah, after those things.

Yeah.

Eddie, let me say that this, that first, I've been thinking about this, and I guess if you're not talking about it immediately, just level with you what I really think.

Purchase it.

And actually, I don't want to see the draft on it, so that's one problem.

That's what you're concerned about, too.

Second, I'm not sure if any language you would get here isn't going to be full on here, and so be it.

Now, the third point is that as far as the language is concerned, to be perfectly frank with you, there shouldn't be any.

In other words, there just shouldn't be any.

After all, we are negotiating for a ceasefire.

We are negotiating for an exchange of prisoners.

We are negotiating for a mutual withdrawal.

In other words, all that dust on the table, and you know what I mean, is that we're not going to change a damn thing as a result of this.

Yet, I know the problem that you've got when you've got a Senate provision

And you've got to come up with something in conference.

Is that basically what you have to do?

Some type.

Jack language.

Now, I'll tell you what.

Here, or throw it out.

Well, but if you throw it out, then you won't have a bill.

They did that a little better.

Now see, now,

What I would like to do, I have, Dr. Kissinger has worked on this thing, and we will send down by, just a second, I will send it.

He's sitting here.

How come?

A special message.

To him?

Yeah.

We'll send down by special message to you in your office.

Will we send it to you in your office?

All right, you can come down right away.

Now let me be very specific.

This is not language the White House is advocating or urging.

You understand?

I don't want to put it that way.

I'm simply saying to you that if there, if in the judgment of the chairman of the conference,

who basically is a great patriot in the event that you determine that they're negotiating that language is needed.

This is the language that is the least objectionable.

That's really what we're saying, that we would acquiesce to it.

But I don't want it, you see, let me put it this way.

I know we're not trying to be cute.

I don't want, because of the things that are going on in the negotiating front, I don't want to have it

have a new position by the White House to come out of this, see?

See, because the guy, here's David Bruce sitting over there, and it's definitely, he's talked to me about this over the last few days, and he says, gee, and he's just delighted with the House action.

He said that the Senate thing really gave the enemy a lot of hope, and he says the House action showed it up.

But here, if it appears that we have changed our position, even though it's, you see,

So could you handle it that way, to say it and say it?

Yeah?

No?

That's right.

So he said, gotcha.

Well, we could handle it, he said, we could live with it.

Live with it, but I did not want to, but I would be, if the, because the press will ask you, well, now, did the White House approve this?

Did we write it?

You say it.

And you, yeah, and you...

And you say, no, this is something we worked out in conference.

That's right.

Yeah.

You've got to know.

Yeah.

Right.

That's right.

Right.

Yeah.

Now, incidentally, any substantial modification of this, we don't mean you leave every, ah, the substantial modification might be that, but it's, but you use your, whichever, we put in as soon as practicable, things like that that are, yeah, that's it, that's it.

Sense of Congress, and as soon as practicable, rather than a date, see, the date is murder.

Yeah, but we do say as soon as practicable, that's not bad.

I'd rather go right back to the house on that and let the draft lapse.

That's right.

And if it lapses, Eddie, we can get along.

Yeah.

And all...

That's right, Dad.

It is time to show religion.

So if they insist, their hard line, about that they're going to have, it's the Mansfield Man, or something cut to it, or anything that has a date in it, stand like a rock.

Don't give them a date.

Don't give them a date on the date.

And hook it to the ceasefire, too.

It's got to be tied to a ceasefire.

Yeah.

That's right.

Now, incidentally, the one new factor that we have added, factored into this, which I think you will totally agree with, is this, and I want to tell you why it's in, and why you should argue with me.

You see, the Senate mandate is tied to, tied only to POW.

Well, now, you can't lose 40,000 men and then throw in a towel because of 400.

You see what I mean?

Now the second point is, the other thing is, if you have a withdrawal without a ceasefire, the rest of your guys, so you've got to have a ceasefire in there as well as an exchange of prisoners.

See my point?

The ceasefire is an absolute condition for us that we'll be not going to be faster.

See my point?

So that's what the language, why we've got this language, we'll look a little bit, you'll see the nuances when it gets done.

yeah and i'll get it down it's only eight minutes left why don't you just uh you or al call julie on the phone she was the one who called me i don't know she'll love it she's safe it's fine but i think she could go you know everybody had to say

And so she just said that she knew that it was unpopular.

She reads it.

She's very intelligent, you know.

And she reads it and says, I noticed that somebody's attacked the state government.

I said, well, the other hand, you're a guest.

Well, why shouldn't he go?

He's a uniformed.

They've got 20 divisions and they don't.

You've got to explore his uniform.

Absolutely.

Lieutenant.

And his sacks.

So he's an official.

No.

And they're injured.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you just call her.

And get that right now.

Yes, sir.

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Congressional relations

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Also recorded on June 30, 1971

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