Conversation 532-017

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I'm ready to see you.

Sit down, sit down.

Yes.

We're one of those periods.

and I think about all you can really do is provide an awful lot of tender loving care and reassurance in the rest of the city when you know who our friends are.

We have, we have also some of our very harmless problems

Let's take, for example, the U.N. thing.

I think if we were to try to right now and go out and make an all-out fight against the previous position, we'd lose.

I'm announcing this.

I've been holding the line.

The State Department announced it about six months ago when we were drawing the call, but we haven't done it.

We're still holding our feet to the bar.

We may not be able to make it, but we can.

Well, yes, of course, the British deserve this, the Canadians deserve this, the Italians deserve this, you know, just right down the line.

So we're just having one hell of a time trying to hold the line for these very decent people that we're for.

Nine countries in the last nine months have derecognized, have been recognized, including some very small ones.

Well, a small one, we don't care about.

Some of them, yes.

Of course, Chile next.

Well, it was one of them.

One or two small African countries.

And it now looks as if Turkey and Iran might defect.

They haven't yet.

But it is bad, both of those capitals.

Well, in any event, we don't say it.

We just have to play this.

You're in a very hot spot in this very difficult place.

You have to play it as cool as you can.

Recognizing, again, I remember that we have to, we're having to do what we are.

One, because in the recognition, the U.S. Army is a collaboration.

In the other field, the Chinese-American, Congress of the Chinese-American Initiative, it involves states far more important than China.

That's the problem.

It involves our relations with the Soviet Union.

It involves Vietnam.

And that's very interesting.

Am I authorized, Mr. President, to continue telling them that we do not intend our efforts to lower tensions and to get some contacts, and we do not intend those efforts to prejudice the vital interests of the folks which have authorized me to say that 12 months ago?

And just to say that we are...

As far as the Republic of China is concerned, we know who our friends are, and we are continuing to continue our close friendly relations with them.

As far as their final interest, what do you mean by final interest?

What do you mean?

Is there a way to turn them over to the jackpots?

Is that it?

Well, I think they, of course, they know we wouldn't do that.

I believe they think of that as just general support for their membership in the U.N., general international backing of them.

We will certainly in the U.N. That would throw them off.

Now, whether or not we do what they want to do, which of course is to support the proposition that they stay in the Security Council, that's really, I think we can support them if it's going to work.

I mean, if they get in, if they should, and that's why the whole do China thing is so really rather ridiculous even if we eventually have to come to that.

But our position will basically be that we

They do not support any resolution.

Our China position will not support any proposition to have the Republic of China put out of the U.N. We will be strong and steadfast on that point.

So that's one.

Now when you get into the other areas, we have to roll a treaty commitment.

And what we must have in mind, they must be prepared for the fact that there will continue to be a step-by-step, a more normal relationship with the other, with the Chinese mainland.

because our interests require it, not because we love them, but because they're there, and because the world situation has so drastically changed.

This is not been a derogation of Taiwan.

It's done because, as I say, because of very great considerations in other areas.

It's a hardship.

It's terribly difficult.

They're going to see it black and white.

And they, in my personal friendship, go back many years and make some beautiful gifts to our daughters.

We just, that's the way we feel.

Personal considerations here are.

We'll put it this way.

We're not about to engage in what the Kennedy administration is yet.

You might think that way.

And either physically or philosophically.

We don't do that for our friends.

Yeah, exactly.

You remember that?

Yes, of course they do.

And the administration has blood on its hands.

Unfortunately.

It was a bad thing.

Yeah.

The president says repeatedly that you're the president and your administration is the administration.

understands the China issue and really sympathizes with his government, understands its ideals, its aspirations, its role in the world better than any other American president in any preceding administration.

He's unshaken in that view.

That's why it causes me great concern that we have to move in this other direction.

I say we have to move.

We have to because our

Our failure, though, would be, would prejudice our interest in other areas that are overwhelming.

Let us suppose, for example, it requires cooperation in Vietnam.

Let us suppose it could affect other relations.

You can see many, there are different guesses on that, but all these things are there.

The real crunch on the UN issue is the Security Council seat.

Of course, events we can keep them in if there's no tender of the Security Council seat to the Chinese Congress.

If there is, as a matter of fact, they would withdraw.

That would mean they'd pretty well convince themselves they could make a go of it without the U.N. Oh, we don't think so.

And the U.N. moves in that direction.

I just say the hell with the U.N. What is it anyway?

It's a damn debating society.

What does it do?

Very good.

Express media, sure, everybody's gotten past the U.N.

They talk about hijacking and drugs and challenges of modern society and the rest, and just give a hell to the United States.

That's all it is.

No, my view is about the U.N., I must say, despite, I mean, publicly, I have to go through the usual facade, the act of, I mean, they praise the U.N. sort of, but it's had it.

Talk about very sophisticated notion.

I mean, it's mean, it's destined to have it.

not serve our interests.

If you put anything up to the UN, you'll note none of our vital interests have ever been submitted to the UN and will never be aligned here.

So as far as they're concerned, I think they ought to not give much a damn what happens to these people.

I don't think it hurts them one bit, but that's for them to decide.

They recognize certain psychological reports.

They don't want to be isolated.

They don't want to be outside.

And they're afraid that other countries might use their absence from the U.N. as a sort of pretext for discriminatory actions against them, even in the trade sector.

There might be some danger.

For instance, the European economic community is rather inclined to exclude Taiwan from the list of preferential countries, the less developed countries that get preferential treatment on import dues.

And they're afraid that there'd be an extra argument for the EDC to cut them out if they're not members of the UN.

They might say, well, who are they?

They don't even have UN status.

Why should they go on any sort of a...

preferential lists or concessions.

I'm just afraid that efforts to keep up the exports might suffer.

And no, I got the export to live.

And they've been phenomenally successful.

And that's a remarkable rate of growth that's continued.

That total foreign trade last year was greater than that of entire England.

Just over $3 billion, which slightly exceeded the total import and export trade of the Chinese country.

Think of that.

$14 million, that's $750 million.

They had a little larger foreign trade.

Wait, we just talked about that.

What could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of that mainland?

Good God.

There'd be no power in the world.

You put 800 million Chinese to work under a decent system, and they will be the leaders of the world.

And the Indians, you could put 200 million Indians to work, and they wouldn't amount to a goddamn.

You know, they're basically different kinds of people.

But the Chinese, they're all over India.

I've just been up in New York on some trade conference work for the Businessmen's Council of the National Assembly, Mr. President.

I've assured them that we are well disposed to a continued American

investment.

I encourage them to continue.

I've told them, so far as I know, that political climate is going to remain favorable if they can make an independent business judgment, which they must make themselves.

It's a good business risk.

Then, as far as we know, the political climate suddenly would argue for that going in.

We don't anticipate any change there.

We anticipate that we continue to be a good climate.

We're continuing to give our export guarantees there.

In the Cairns Ex-Im Bank program has done an awful lot there, a wonderful job.

Also, the EID guarantees on investments.

It's famous in other countries.

So I encourage them to continue to take an interest in investment.

I got a very good response.

I consider a man from a stable country.

I certainly would not follow any course with that.

But it's a delicate line that you're gonna have to, we're gonna have to be as effective as you can be under difficult circumstances to keep that

We're saying it ain't due to us, of course, that we visit that so much.

But the point is, we take no comfort in singing to her airframe.

There's no comfort at all.

The world is spared of very delicate problems.

It's something not to be talked about now, of course, Mr. President, but I can see that Taiwan is gradually developing its own orbit separate from that of the mainland.

And I think this is going to be in our national interest, too.

We don't need to talk about formal independence now, sovereignty questions.

I think we are wise to leave this old crime uncovered.

They should go on.

I think that's their whole line of work.

Of course, the generalissimo couldn't come to that now, but someday I think they are going to accept a separate status, independent of the mainland, in a different orbit.

And a separate status for Taiwan is a part of the general equilibrium in the Far East, and I think I'd be seriously disturbed apart from every humanitarian consideration of the Chinese Communist Party.

Of course, it'd be a bloodbath, the same as Tibet.

But from the geopolitical standpoint, it would just change the sensitive equipoise in the area, I think.

I know the Japanese would be greatly disturbed, too.

The Filipinos would be.

And, of course, the version of Okinawa, the Japanese, all the more sensitive to any change there.

I think we've got a real, in Japanese, everything comes down to one problem.

They're basically with us.

The LDP is, I don't know how Japanese socialists would be if they could, and I hope they never do, but the LDP is with us.

Sure, sure, sure.

Well, it's a, you have, you don't have, there isn't any more delicate assignment, or I want to say, as events unfold here, any one of them will be more difficult than yours, and I just

That's just one of those things, as I say, I look around the world, and you have to deal sometimes with a bunch of damn bandits, and we do.

And we're dealing with bandits, thugs, international outlaws, and so forth.

But sometimes you have to, because our interests are so demanding of all of us.

And it's so difficult.

I heard a great story somewhere in Texas, you know, what you got to deal with.

You got to deal with it.

And we've got a complex interplay here, the Soviets and the Chinese Communist.

They've obviously got very mixed feelings about the prospective entry of the Chakrams into the U.N.

They don't really want it, but they think they've got to give lip service.

I guess they'll vote for them, but they don't really want it.

Or they just love sitting there.

Yeah.

That's the worst thing.

Well, you know, they left every resource in mind.

I can't say much more.

You should be quiet.

Just say as little as you can.

Reassure.

But on the other hand, we have to continue our other things for other reasons that have nothing to do with our time.

Yes, exactly.

All right, I think that's exactly right.

I'm rushing back, you know, and the first thing the host got was a two-line reception.

It's wonderful.

Can I get you that?

I did.

I have a... That chair is still in my bed.

Yes, sir.

I'm charging it for... You can't have it.

You can't have it.

I'm never losing... No, I'm not.

I'm not.

Thank you, Mr. President.

This means everything to me.

It really does to your wife.

I remember how great she was.

I want to thank you for this, and thanks to my wife.

It's been a pleasure, too.

Good to see you.