Nixon, Kissinger & Mitchell on Pentagon Papers and Daniel Ellsberg

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He said, black pocket skinny.

And I said that, I called him, and boy, he's quite a role model.

He said, of course, he had said I was, well, that was wonderful, and he said he was so pleased.

I said, well, I just want you to know, we didn't agree with everything, but I want you to know that I was very impressed with what you said, and we listened, and that kid's really, I mean, he was trying hard, he was trying hard, but he was only pretending, and I just got it done.

Then he went on to say a very interesting thing.

He said, you know, he said, I just wish my grandfather could have

live in C.C.

His grandson made the call from President I.C.C.

William Cleveland.

I said, well, I said, my grandfather William Cleveland, if you can see me, made the call.

He said, I love you.

Anyway, I want to say, too, that they said, I feel like you're a crow.

You're other people, because you're a crow.

I guess crows are better.

Well, I guess keep talking as you know.

We're not Democrats.

We're Republicans.

I'm just saying.

But I thought you might just...

I don't know Randall, of course, but I've heard of him.

But, yeah.

He's an awfully good-looking guy.

I remember he was very intelligent.

And, of course, naturally, I've been born in Arnold.

I'd be a Democrat under those terms.

But anyway, I thought that when we can't do something for him, let him know.

And never get mad in their instance.

That's what I did.

He said that he was going to report to the caucus, and I said, that's fine, I just want them to know that we didn't read everything, but we did have some, and when we did, we followed up.

So I thought, and so he's a, I was very impressed with the young successor.

Now he, actually, even as a boy, I don't know how to be aggressive, but he's a very intelligent man.

Yeah.

Very intelligent man.

You know, I've got an interesting thing, I don't know whether you noticed, but did you notice if you just sat there and marked his color away how much he looked like my younger brother?

Did you notice?

Well, his face, did you notice?

Yeah, well, and sort of his eyes, you know, the way he kind of, his smile, I was just really impressed.

He had sort of the same attitude, you know, sort of an attitude.

Yeah.

Right.

Wow.

But I think that he has to, as I told him, in order to keep this constituency, he's got to combine lots of things.

But on the other hand, just give us our due order right.

That's all we ask for.

Well, you might think this little rambling story is not a bad idea.

Not blatantly, but it's really nice.

Okay.

Bye.

That was a lovely party, I thought.

Very nice.

The bus was so big that I think all of the other people were.

The undersecretary of production.

We are doing an awful lot of things like that, Rose, that we've never done before.

I believe they should be more recognized, you know, statistically recognized.

You know, we've had all that.

I don't mean to, but there are cars that can.

Uh...

Let's find out how he pulled it on me.

I'm a man of the order.

Come you know roses ridiculous

I'd rather we haven't been in that car today with people we just love, and they just want to fill those seats.

Just protect us.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

No noise.

Sorry, you're too close.

You know, the point is, it'd be easy to give them all tickets that time there or something, and say, come back in two years.

It's just such a wonderful experience for people who get to come.

It's a wonderful experience.

I haven't voted in my guest house.

It was a holy city.

John, I was looking out there, this thing here, noticing that there are about, you know, too many people there.

Why don't we get the tourists in there and build a little stage house?

It's a great thing to hear that sort of thing.

Yeah.

Well, how do they think of this crowd then?

Yeah.

Well, take a look.

It looks to me like it's just about cut 200 or 300 blacks and 800 empty seats, and that's ridiculous to have everybody go out there.

Uh, you know, uh, in fact, I don't think, uh, Parable should be go on.

She's supposed to go on.

Just be what's silly and go along with it.

They ought to go those ways, don't they?

Right.

They ought to go those ways.

Hello.

This is Cynthia.

How are you?

I was calling to tell you that one of your friends in Manchester, as a matter of fact, a reader's neighbor, sent me a copy of your speech that you made for your valedictorian speech, and I just thought it was great.

I congratulate you on first of my speech, second on me, the valedictorian of your class,

Third, I'm expressing silence about this country that we need to hear.

And I'm so pleased to note that you got a big ovation at the end.

Everybody stood up.

Yes.

Tell me, I noticed that your father is not living.

I see.

But your mother is.

You have brothers and sisters.

Four brothers, older, younger.

You're not.

You're going to college.

You're going to Smith.

Oh, I wish you well, my daughter's on task.

Julia.

Well, that's just great.

Well, I wish you the best.

You just need to get down to some medicine.

There are a lot of ideas expressed, but just keep your fingers in place.

Okay, bye.

And she says that I think the time has come to defend America.

And, uh, and, uh,

They did not loyally molest me.

They cursed me to poison all the rightful places.

It's one of each, well, one in each one, but only for one year, and otherwise it was a pure left-wing group.

Really?

I don't know.

Well, I don't know.

They were students.

Well, they were students because there were a lot of Jews in there to feed them off of.

How did so many, who don't have parents, who understand it at all?

Oh, wow.

whether it's Francis or the other office, but you can call them.

I thought Stewart would go for sure, because he's the in-house of the NAM.

I'm sorry.

If they don't stop it in the country, we're going to be right back to that.

Did you ever read Atlas Drive?

Yeah, I did.

I actually did, not too long ago.

It does take you, because you're way too attached to it.

Sorry, I had to go home early last night because I went by the chocolate party before I came here.

Did you have anything, um... Could you get, uh, turn the camera, please?

Uh... Mark said you were going to talk about something you had mentioned just now.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Oh.

Boy, I'm excited to learn.

Okay, we're on, so...

What we'll do is not have them say it.

Right?

We'll try to get help on the way out.

She'll bring it up and I'll say that I think you need that time.

But why doesn't she know?

Let's hope it'll work.

I think, let's hope it'll work.

I think maybe we'll try.

You know there's a great code of rules against it.

Yeah.

I don't know what it is.

Mm-hmm.

Isn't that a huge deal?

Yeah.

But it also had some...

When we get those out of the state, he said... Look, is he quid?

He's over with Richard Smith, H.E.W.

now.

But what about his documents, sir?

How do they know he did it?

Um, I only know what Laird told me.

Yeah, okay, fine.

They had a, certainly I talked to Julie.

Yeah, good.

He said they, uh, they had caught him earlier xeroxing documents and... Oh, why didn't they fire him?

That's a very good question.

Xeroxing documents?

Yeah.

And Ellsberg, uh,

He's a good friend of Ellsberg's.

And Senator Messiah has a bundle of documents of Roger's memos to us.

And our replies can't be much because all we ever said was the President has directed that.

What areas?

We don't know.

We're going to try to get a look at them this afternoon.

Who told you?

Larry told me, Larry.

You know, he has his own investigative branch.

Wow.

He gets that through his own intelligence.

And they have some NFC documents.

Well, they have some NFC, yeah.

We don't have any of Cambodia in there.

NFC, we've got them out of the legislature.

A is from 69.

Our whole system is different.

I don't know what it is.

We can certainly have some silly memos from Rogers.

Mr. President, if they force us to declassify, we are going to look very, very good.

If they drive us too far, I think you ought to go on national television with a charge of treason and say, this is what they brought us to, and now you're going to fight your campaign to stand this out.

I really think you ought to get on the attack.

The government cannot run if this keeps up.

It isn't just this administration anymore.

And I think once the public knows all the things you've been doing, if you say that on May 15th you got a communication from the Chinese, on May 31st you approached the Hanoi, and while all of this was going on, these guys have been leaking documents, passing resolutions,

I think we can turn this country around dramatically.

Particularly, particularly once we get the Chinese thing out of it.

I just hope they won't leak so much next week now with the Supreme Court.

I don't know what they've got.

Well, we can't worry about that.

Well, you say it is from 69.

What the hell do they have in 69?

Oh, proposals for private meetings, ceasefires.

There was a hell of a lot that we haven't done in a long time.

We are in great faith because... What did you say?

He thinks he knows the man, somebody that Elliot Richardson now has in state?

In ATW.

Well, Elliot Richardson has got that hand exam and he's got somebody in zero.

Yeah, but we have to say it's the first I ever heard of it and there's no question.

I wanted to give you a minute.

Let me touch down very briefly through what the issues are.

The issues are how many safeguard sites we should ask for.

Jerry Smith is going to recommend one.

He's written you a letter.

You might refer to his letter.

One.

One safeguard site for Moscow.

That's an insanity.

We started out asking for three.

and for them to be able to protect most of, much of the industry's population and some missiles while they have some systems analysis figures which prove you don't protect many more missiles.

But it's simply a question of discipline.

If we have, we will look like fools to have one safeguard side against Moscow.

On the, but you don't have to decide it.

I just want you to know what the mood is.

Mora will ask for four, but they'll all settle for two.

The second question has to do with offensive weapons.

I'll present the issues, but I just want you to be aware of them.

What should the freeze apply to ICBMs and submarines or just ICBMs?

Smith wants to apply both to ICBMs and submarines.

Nobody really wants to have it apply only to ICBMs.

Frankly, I think we will have to make the deal on ICBMs alone.

We don't say that.

No, I'll go head out with Sabrina.

Thirdly, the third has to do with the length of the agreement.

whether you put a definite time limit on it, whether you put no time limit on it, or whether you tie it to an offensive agreement.

I think we should, I've talked to Phil about it, we should probably tie it to an offensive agreement, saying that if there's no offensive agreement within X number of years, we'll have the right to withdraw.

But those are the three big issues.

Jerry wants simply... simply wants an open-ended...

I read the memorandum, and I'll keep it.

Right.

And if you could just...

He signed nothing today.

Why do we have to give him the job to come in?

I'll give...

I'll leave a decision memo with you before I leave.

We have to give him an answer early next week.

Really?

When are you going to give him the answer?

By early next week.

Yeah.

Oh, I see.

Fine.

Well, you know what we have to do, sir.

Yeah.

Well, I think that Carter could do what we anticipated then.

He said, you know, you can't just put it right on the nose with the numbers.

Same as I anticipated.

Yeah, he was a part of it, Stuart.

I'm not the boss, but I like you, Stuart.

Carter is what he is.

Well, good.

He was sort of a republic today, but Stuart is a softhead.

You know, he runs around all this work, and so he's a...

Uh...

Why, Craig says, is he getting political?

I don't know.

It must be because... Former Deputy Attorney General.

As I've mentioned before, he's been awfully good with the wiretaps.

What is it all?

What's the decision being signed?

Everything has so forth.

Where do we go from here?

It just means that they've released all of the documents without limitation.

In other words, they've... And the dissent of...

Yes.

They released all of the 47 volumes.

We can, again, try it with any new set that comes out.

Or have they said there's no prior to that?

Well, I haven't seen the opinion.

If they destroy anything, the classic case, suppose that they reach documents about what we're doing with the assault negotiations next week.

I don't know, Mr. President.

I might have made the determination that these were historical documents that had no grave or immediate danger to the country.

I haven't seen your opinion on that.

Well, let me say, don't you agree, though, that we have to pursue the Ellsberg case now?

No question about it.

Huh?

No question about it.

All right.

This is the one sanction we have is to get at the individuals who are, I suppose, they're an asset to Ellsberg, but we believe all of the documents do not endanger the national security.

That's what I'm agreeing.

Others said, why do we go after me?

It might be the case we've...

The structure of the complaint under the statute is a lot clearer about taking government property rather than the espionage aspect of it.

Oh, I see.

Just taking government property.

Technical.

But that's the only technical thing.

We got this on perjury, not on espionage, because the statute of limitations is right.

Why not?

Just get some of the bitch in the jail.

We've got to get that.

It's pretty accurate, but we're getting to find some of the, um, some of the, um, background in the consortium of the domestic communists hearing at the meetings.

Well, I want to get that out.

Now, if there's anything to do, don't worry about it.

Just try it.

Just get everything out.

Try it in the press.

Everything John Luther is on the investigation, get it out and leak it out.

We want to destroy it in the press.

Is that clear?

That's the way we want it in this case.

I didn't try it.

I got it.

I wanted to order it.

I got it.

I got to do this.

Why is he on impeachment and murder?

Layup called me and said that Matthias has a batch of documents from 69.

Are you familiar with that?

Yes, as a matter of fact, Matthias called me about it earlier.

What did he do?

Put him out?

No.

No, he's been holding them in.

no he says from 69 according to henry henry said

Well, I am familiar with it.

Matthias called me and said that Ellsberg had given up a bunch of documents.

That's right, but Laird called me saying that Matthias called him and said that he had documents from the year 69 that he got from Ellsberg.

And where would Ellsberg give them out of range?

Apparently, Laird said...

I know a fellow called Dick Cook in Richardson's office, who was then in Richardson's office.

In whose office?

In Richardson's office.

I know Dick Cook and I know his views of...

He led Liberals?

Yeah, former Army officers.

Well, why doesn't he fire him?

Well, up to now, Mr. President, the fact that I knew him as a dove didn't mean that I knew him as a traitor.

Don't listen.

Just assume.

And apparently, I'm just quoting Laird, they have memos of Rogers to the president from 69 about Vietnam, and allegedly they have my replies to them.

Now, I never make substantive replies.

All I could have said is, the president has set this

I've never put anything on paper in an argumentative way except for you.

But to have that sort of thing in the hand of a senator is ridiculous.

Well, look, John, I think it's good if this is just the same.

Just keep it going.

The court isn't going to look so good on this one, too, though.

For Christ's sake, sir.

So what have we done?

We're just three, Harlan, Berger, and Black.

I hope Berger writes good opinions.

He did write good.

I'm sure they have.

That's what I mean.

And, uh, the other thing is that I thought that, uh, I thought we would lose Harlan and Stewart.

rather than whining stories.

I just can't believe, boy, not only having the experience of a deputy attorney general would be proud, but also on the basis of his prior opinions that he's written.

It shows what these superannuated fools like Black and Duck, that's what they do to the court.

Yeah, yeah.

Because with two more appointments.

Yeah, we'd have had it.

We would have had it.

Yeah, yeah.

Good.

Well, because we gave O.J.

Edgar his send-off to change.

He was in the 7th Amendment.

The right thing to say to prepare him for later times.

He, uh, and I used that term, which, of course, we now have, of course, a year of permissiveness.

It's got to go ahead.

The Supreme Court says, says permissiveness now is okay.

We'll let him do anything.

They don't know how to do it.

Look at the freedom of the press and the life that they do.

It just makes them above and beyond the government and the courts and everybody.

Well, it's preposterous.

Now, don't think that despite this, don't think that this is a big of an answer for our Democratic friends.

This shit's going to hit the fan down.

There must be more stuff in these documents, isn't there?

Very much so.

That would be right, but of course now, if this leads to a situation

where all our enemies in the bureaucracy can leak all of the documents of our administration and force us into court to defend them.

Well, then, I don't know what to expect.

Mr. Ellsberg is under complaint.

Yeah.

Let me say one other thing.

I understand what you mean.

It's important.

I must immediately change our own classification system.

I don't want any more suppository stuff coming in here.

We've got to have a classification for the president.

Because you're pretty secure here, and luckily we have sent nothing into the bureaucracy of our memos.

There is nothing floating around like Bundy's stuff.

I've never shown any cabinet member except occasionally to John memos I've written to you.

Russia's led.

Nobody has ever seen it.

Oh, yes, their stuff, if I can... No, their stuff is going to get out, but our stuff isn't going to get out.

My point is that we have a new classification.

As far as that's concerned, any conversation with the president, anything like that, God now has got to be classifying the president, and I will...

I'll indicate when they can get it out.

There are many people that have top-secret curative clearances in this government.

One way...

I'm thinking seriously, Mr. President, that if this doesn't blow up our various schemes now, that we might consider, you might consider going to a joint session of Congress and saying it has gone too far now and ask for some laws and get a tough battle going.

There are laws.

The court has just held that that law is unconstitutional at that time.

Well, it's hard because there's no order against the publication.

They're not ruling on whether the guy can take it out.

This reading is on the narrow issue of publication.

The narrow issue of publication.

We've got to hold down.

I agree with you.

He could have tried to stop us.

He could have held us back.

He hasn't tried that.

Well, the problem is, the paper's out.

See you then.

Yep.

Nixon, Kissinger & Mitchell on Pentagon Papers and Daniel Ellsberg

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 30, 1971

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