Conversation 538-013

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Erland and Coulson and I met earlier for what we decided to do, unless you feel strongly against it, is to get Buchanan into this thing and to retain that CIA guy.

And then to set up about the USIA volunteer.

We may get him, if you want to put this together.

Then, remember the young guy that was the POW guy that we talked so highly of, that was working with us?

I thought he wanted to hire him.

We were looking for a place for him here.

We didn't have that.

The DOW thing didn't fit in, too.

That's what he wanted to do first.

What we think we'll do is have him take the job at I-Court's committee and tell I-Court and Fletch Thompson and a couple of the others that this guy is a pipeline.

I mean, make no bones about it.

So they know, and it will be him.

We know we can trust on their committee.

And then we'll just open a funnel and just pour this stuff in and let them start banging the feeders all over the place up there.

Now, I hit Mitchell this morning.

I didn't think he had done his polygraph on that son of a bitch Cug.

And I called him this morning and said, is this morning how your polygraph came out on Cug?

And he says, oh my God, I forgot all about that.

And I said, gee, we were counting on you.

I'm getting a reading on that.

He said he'd get right over there and get started and stuff like that.

He knows.

But Cook, the defense department people, are going to the grand jury tomorrow in Boston.

The New York Times guy.

And they got evidence on him and his wife that they were involved in a stealing and copying.

of the documents.

So they're going to go into the grand jury and then Marty ended up worried, but his stuff was worried beyond the industrial pressing equipment for reporters.

No, I don't think so.

I don't think so.

I just got this thing from Uber.

You got stuff on what else?

Here's Neil Sheehan.

and identifies why a citizen she and, including the reporter, they arranged for and participated in the copying of what appeared to be zero-ounce copies of some of the classified material for a nightmare study at two duplicating firms in Massachusetts, one in Bedford and the other in Boston.

This was done March 21 to 23, 1971.

Liam Kovach, a reporter for the New York Times, has possibly identified an individual arranged by telephone for a citizen she and to have a large duplicating job done at the firm in Bedford.

Identified in the school college, Carlisle mask conveyed the impression he had used the services of his friends from the representative of the military at the airport space in Bedford.

Between the time he complicated the documents, time of publication arrangements were made for three staff writers in the New York Times to work with Sheehan in the preparation material.

built a hotel in New York City, Kenworthy, Butterfield, and Richman.

We knew that.

Cycle Times, first mark, investigation into Lloyd Shearer, West Coast head chief of Parade Magazine.

He was a close associate of Daniel Ellsberg in California.

He has attempted to cultivate the friendship with Ellsberg's divorced wife.

Tony Russo, served as assistant manager.

Shoney immediately consulted with Lloyd Shearer and sought his advice.

Shearer recommended he select his attorney, Joseph Ball, my God.

Prominent California lawyer, senior trial counsel, President's Commission, investigated the assassination of John Kennedy.

The advice of Ball was so clear before the grand jury refused to testify.

Granted an immunity, Eaglin again declined to testify and contempt was placed against him.

Upheld the execution to prevent a final death.

We're seeing an intensive investigation all the way through until we get to the line.

So that, that here's the line.

There's a couple of more people.

I don't think you'd get an MRI.

No, the defense aren't getting any of them.

Other people are going to push on that.

See, you see, well, they've got, look, they've got this on the Mathias papers.

And this part is in the middle of this one.

And the Mathias papers are in our names.

So allegedly NSC papers and Secretary Rogers' memos to you on NSC matters.

Who do you know, sir?

Cook.

Well, God damn it.

Cook's got to be good.

We've got to go with him.

We're moving on Cook, man.

He's out of a sensitive position now, but we still...

He took the lock, gave it to Ellsberg.

That's what they say.

They're still trying to figure it.

They know Cook gave it, as you know.

Showed Ellsberg.

Cook was very closely tied to Larry then.

I've got a web.

relationships between Cook, Lynn, Halpert, all the schematic that you might be interested in, Bob, because it would give people something to focus on.

Well, we're going to work on a little.

Does it look like that?

Yes.

I'm shocked if he is.

That's right.

It looks very possible.

That's right.

I don't know.

I mean, it might not necessarily be clean.

A lot of it's circumstantial, obviously.

But if I asked the first effect with the Crescent Papers, it would be a very, very difficult decision to put stuff out there that's currently out there.

What's done is it's rotting for about a while.

What kind of stuff is it?

National Security Affairs business, and the only thing I could think that they'd be, that Cook would be interested in would be Southeast Asia.

But we don't know because Mathias hasn't told us now of a defense in our manner to go over and see Mathias on Thursday.

I mean, she's in it and might make the documents available to you.

Jesus Christ.

That is unbelievable.

But he's also told them that he knows that other people have these documents.

No, well, McComber...

And the judge, or the general counsel of defense, Dick Kennedy on our side.

Well, that's the other thing.

Buzzard, they took a five-hour deposition.

Buzzard, he's bad.

No, no, he's good.

He's gotten down on paper and his total, what he thinks...

He sees this weapon, and they're trying to get that down, and then they'll follow it all out.

That's right.

And then we'll get this other CIA guy, we'll put on a retainer and use him externally, and we can use, he's very good not only at finding stuff, but also at feeding, so we'll use him as a foreman.

Okay.

Use him also to be, uh, to, uh... Well, this is the lesson I'm worried about.

Now, this is a very interesting thing.

There was a feature story in The Star last night.

I told you it was a bit of an interruption.

Now, I didn't mention this to Henry.

I said, Henry, watch your people.

Watch these people.

He's never believed it.

It's hard for you to believe this.

It is after you get to know these people.

Of course.

That sounds like a good one.

Hurleyman, as you know, who's been pretty skeptical on this whole thing, is now basically convinced that there is a conspiracy, and that it is because it's got our papers as well as the others.

It's a group of four or five, apparently, key people who have set themselves up to do us in by the best means they can follow.

You asked him, rather than Johnson and Kennedy, to do the establishment, to do the United States, in the United States, in regard to this war.

It's a presidency.

In regard to what?

That's right.

So, I think what you're going to do is...

and he agreed, not the courts, he agreed to fly it through the press.

Put stuff on, leave stories.

That's why America needs some of these baskets out.

Don't worry about the grand jury.

Get it out.

I want the GM story out and have somebody write it.

That's not correct.

Come on, go ahead.

Do you think you could be here when I see Mitchell?

Probably.

I've got to tell him about this thing.

Yeah, I guess so.

How are we going to vote?

We're going to vote.

All right.

We're going to vote.

We're going to go after him.

You got this.

I think that the, I think that the whole business here is going to be so good.

All reflections and more reflection are coming closer to being removed.

Firstly, it's what I expected.

Because I guess it was, as I told Henry, I said, Henry, what the hell are you going to put something for that?

He says, well, I'll put something for that.

He says, I'll tell him I'll cut off this channel and all that.

Exactly right.

No, I never had.

No, I had not.

And I do not.

I think you've got to get it straight with that.

But the thing you've got to do with anger is to be very comfortable with it.

I was done with anger, you know what I mean?

You just can't keep going over there and dilly-dallying around because...

He gets too impressed by the, uh, basically the cosmetics.

He really does.

I mean, as much as he's as realist as he is, you know, like, that's impressive.

The cosmetics do impress him now.

His background is a problem.

He's come from that goddamn left-wing, and even though he's a hard-line, tough guy, he's working hard.

So he wouldn't...

For example, when I wrote a letter to an astronaut, I thought about the goddamn Russians.

Like that.

Because we'll talk about it here.

People like to do that.

And he's just got to get a little bit, got to be more.

And he'll say he's long gotten that tortuous news with the rain on it.

It was very, very exciting.

Well, there's soccer so long.

that you've got to be... Now, it may be in their interest to require a soldier.

Excellent.

They may want a soldier.

I think they want an improvement in relations because they think they can unravel the NATO alliance and split Germany out.

That's what they're after.

They want a brother.

Yes, sir.

You've got to screw that up.

I hope that is made awfully clear to Russia.

Yes, sir.

And it's sufficiently complicated and still has a long enough way to go that we can do that.

And this announcement, when it comes, I'll hit them right between the eyes.

I know goddamn well that they're not fooling the people that are going to sit and get raped.

I think that's what I'm concerned about.

I think it'll work fine.

No, no.

He said he thought it was an honor message.

well he said that he had alerted his number two to convey additional messages because he felt there would be more uh because all they did was register their concern uh let me say this if they if it's knocked down if this one goes because of that it was too generous to be in anyway that's right and this we better find out right now that it's because of someone who had a sweet story

They're going to knock it down as two handlers, you understand?

No, I think they wanted to.

They made a firm commitment.

You started talking to them.

Henry's always talked to the Russians a lot.

You started talking to them, too.

Well, I did, and I still think they do, but they want to suck us dry.

They think they can get more out of us, or I'm thinking they just make us pay a bigger price.

No, that response was...

in an effort to just suck us dry, not to turn it down.

We hope our relations will improve.

We've noted some positive things.

What else are you going to do, boys?

What we're going to do is stick them right in the teeth.

But the message to Henry, I said, no, I want it to be, and this is absolutely categorical, there should be no MP here, no Bruce Tripp.

I sent him that this morning, sir.

Do you agree?

Yes, sir.

If you can see why I left the Bruce Tripps and I heard Robert.

I mean, why do it twice?

And it was just announced that we'd never be separate, not prepared to go.

That's a much more frank way to handle things.

Well, that's one thing.

You're dealing with a more straightforward customer.

They're tougher.

But I think the Chinese are more direct and honest.

When they say something, they mean it.

They've made a decision.

Well, I think that's going to go.

They never would have sent that message if they didn't mean it.

Now, they may ask a price that you might not be willing to pay.

That would be the complication on the Chinese.

But the Soviets, they're just playing pussyfoot there.

Now, is there anything we could hit in North Vietnam below the level of mass publicity after that Da Nang thing?

I don't think they should go into Paris or not crack them someplace.

Now, have you checked that out, or has the defense been in any one of these lines?

Well, they have arranged plans.

I haven't...

been told to do anything but the chairman's he's got them stacked up in various gradations of severity or should we wait a little after he gets back from paris i would wait sir but then i would every time they drop one of these i think you're going to tell henry that uh that person that i have viewed the attack of the man that i i expect this i i i didn't have a view of the soviet reply i expect that the

It's my strong feeling that the next meeting should be a lasting one.

And you should make the record with that in mind.

Because so that we can, so that we are not inhibited or pitied,

I think we ought to warn them very strongly at this meeting, too, about these shellings.

That's right.

And he's telling us that there must be a warning that we, the President, under that trumpet, any time, I'm warning you, we will retaliate.

And it will not be 10 for 10.

You should use those phrases.

It will not be 10 for 10.

But I think, I really think, you know, we've got to push it together.

I don't believe that that's what did it.

In my view, all these great agents that he saw and he's talked to them, they didn't do a goddamn thing because they never changed their basic positions.

See how you do?

See my point?

I don't think you

These people were tossed.

They fought too long.

And we've got to just sweat it out.

And I think we can, too.

But, too, he's got to sweat it out by himself.

And he can't go down to the British Army in Asia, has he?

Yes, sir.

I think he can do it.

We can.

They're goosey.

They need psychological and material help.

They can get psychological help, but they can't continue to get, for example, we're not going to get...

see how it means that we're not going to be able to continue to bomb all next year either.

That can't be done.

We can't be out there running bombers up and down that goddamn place.

We've got to have an end to this thing.

And then, and then it goes into problems.

Now after the election, do something about it.

And that's the thing we can hold on for.

We can turn hard right then.

That's right.

And that's why we do it.

It's just such a balancing act of pulling that together so it doesn't unravel because that would be equally tragic.

I don't know.

I don't believe it.

No, it can't.

You can't just assume that it's all true.

You can't just assume it's all right.

You know, General Bien was here.

We didn't worry.

The chief of their general staff was here this week in Washington, and he thinks they can do it, but they're very, very concerned that we do it the right way.

And he's an honest soldier.

He's no more than that.

We've got to leave them with enough to do the job.

We have to do that.