On July 19, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:08 pm to 1:21 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 539-014 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Very well.
He's getting himself in gear.
He has a, it's obvious when you know him, I don't think anybody else sees him, but he's got this problem all the time, trying to figure out what to say and what not to say.
He hasn't become comfortable with it.
Yeah, he is.
I'd be at a point in the games by, uh, scaling.
Except that it's got to be not that bad.
All right.
You hit it well Henry, you hit it well and I hit it.
It can't be, it can't be the question of anybody's mind that this goes off now because some guy willfully is doing it.
And that's all.
There's no other thoughts.
They're all there.
You had everybody there.
And there's no need for any of that now to talk.
And, uh... Well, to get it across, Bob, people don't do it because, and many people, well, there may be somebody doing it, but most people don't do it because they want to hurt you.
They just don't.
They're taking it in with a goddamn press.
Henry made the point after you finished that what you were saying to them was not for them to use
and talking to people, it was only for them so they'd understand the background of this thing.
And then I came in and made the point that we had set up backgrounders with the staff for briefing meetings with the staff at Cambodia time and at other major events, you know, to tell them what was going on so that they were able to communicate with other people, but that this time it was for a different purpose.
This was not so they would be able to communicate with other people, it was so they would know as much as they needed to know.
for now, as to what the status of this thing was, and to understand the reasons why they should not communicate with other people, press, friends, social, or anything else, and that this was a different situation, and that on this one we would not be having a series of staff briefings to keep people up to date on what's going on in China.
We wouldn't be going into anything further on it.
They should not expect to be kept up to date.
i think it's worth making that point because we have on the others we've you know whether we're in a crisis or a big developing story we've gotten together periodically and kept them posted on it i don't think we want to on this one and they might as well not think they're going to get it now then i made at the end roger's point because i think it was a good one for the staff that the opposition is now going to take us on on domestic grounds because they are going to be able to do much on the
one thing this gives us an opportunity we'll have plenty to talk about plenty to do from a staff academy point on the grounds where there is responsibility without having to get into the china question usually it's the heart of the staff and that's because you know they're all well-intentioned loyal press but by god they've got to be heard i don't think sometimes they get the message otherwise what do you think you weren't too hard at all uh
Some guy willfully is killing me.
And that's all.
I mean, it just, there's no other thoughts.
They were all there.
You had everybody there.
And there's no need for any of that now.
And, uh... Well, they got an across spot.
People don't do it because, and many people, well, there may be somebody doing it.
Most people don't do it because they want to hurt you.
They just don't.
They're taken in with a goddamn press.
Henry made the point after you finished that what you were saying to them was not for them to use in talking to people.
It was only for them so they'd understand the background of this thing.
And then I came in and made the point that we had set up backgrounders with the staff for briefing meetings with the staff at Cambodia time and at other major events to tell them what was going on.
so that they were able to communicate with other people, but that this time it was for a different purpose.
This was not so they would be able to communicate with other people, but so they would know as much as they needed to know, for now, as to what the status of this thing was, and to understand the reasons why they should not communicate with other people, press, friends, social, or anything else.
and that this was a different situation, and that on this one we would not be having a series of staff briefings to keep people up-to-date on what's going on in China.
We wouldn't be going into anything further on it.
They should not expect to be kept up-to-date.
I think it's worth making that point, because we have on the others.
Whether we're in a crisis or a big developing story, we've gotten together periodically and kept them posted on it.
I don't think we want to on this one.
I just forgot.
and they might as well not think they're going to get it now.
Then I made, at the end, Raj Morton's point, because I think it was a good one for the staff, that the opposition is now going to take us on on domestic grounds because they aren't going to be able to do much on the more thing.
This gives us an opportunity.
We'll have plenty to talk about and plenty to do from a staff and category point on the grounds where there is responsibility without having to get into the China questions.
He's the hardest man in this because, you know, they're all well-intentioned, loyal to us.
But by God, they've got to be hurt.
I don't think sometimes they get the message otherwise.
What do you think?
You weren't too hard at all.
I don't know about everybody.
We have to be tough on them.
They do leave.
God damn it, this administration leaves like a sieve.
It's because we've been too easy.
Don't you think so?
Yes.
And so we're just not going to happen anymore.
I took a look at the main news magazines there.
I thought that, as I told Henry, I agree with you, I agree with what we're doing with Rodgers, and I feel that some say that Rodgers and several of his aides have been informed about that, but is that one of the magazines that we haven't seen yet, some of his colleagues' aides?
Well, of course, some state department got it put down, so it's not a labor-informed goddamn thing.
The only problem is not a labor-informed, but then it goes on, maybe for two, this is the point, and it was layered or not informed.
Well, now, if you informed some shit, I said, state financial department, I didn't win a lottery.
See my point?
Oh, well, that's state for you.
That's the way they do it.
Oh, oh.
Marshall Green, trying to make sure nobody can see him.
He was extremely well handled, and so forth.
And, uh, considering being better than magazines, they give, they give, uh, isn't it, as much play as you can imagine to a man as you would expect to, uh, a person's actual role here, you know, in this, uh, analogous to the old, which is alright.
But, uh, if you, if you were, you were absolutely right to,
The whole tendency would have been to play it all as either a Rodgers boy or a Kissinger boy, or any kind of a hell of a beard.
But in this instance, they do a little grudgingly.
They have to say, yeah, it does.
You know, it's hard.
How can you expect them to turn around and do it?
They don't have to do it grudgingly.
And it may seem as if they didn't.
I couldn't agree more.
The average person will not see that it's...
Right there.
It's clear he doesn't want to talk with me beforehand, because he didn't want to get together.
I started to check a couple of things, and he said, well, it's not the specifics.
I know those points.
I don't have any specific problems.
It's just the way this thing is developing or something.
Uh, he said dinner would be fine, if you would like to do that.
I think I'm discouraged, yeah.
He says he knows you don't like to have dinners, and that he'd be happy to meet with you any time of your convenience.
He has to testify tomorrow, and he would like to meet with you today, and he'll use the time.
He'd like to know when, because he wants to spend his time getting ready to testify, either this evening or this afternoon.
Well, fine.
Why don't we get him out of the way, and then just say that, and then tell him we're not in private region today.
It's hard to get outside of my assumptions that he's... he thinks that there is a program somewhere in here to send Woodward to get rid of him, to do him in.
and that he is not going to contest such a thing.
If there is such a thing, he'd rather just go and not struggle with it than to fight it.
He ain't going to succumb in here and fight a battle and maintain his position.
He can't.
Sure.
I think being assured that A, I don't think he's right.
I don't think there is a thing to get him out.
I honestly don't.
I don't think any.
I'm trying to figure out where there can be one, and I don't think there is.
On the other side of the coin, maybe he wants to get out.
That's the other possibility.
I can't believe that he would.
I mean, he can't just, I don't think that he would be very, very strange for him to, for his standpoint, to say that.
I don't know.
I don't have that impression.
I have the idea that he just wants to find out where the hell it was all about.
But the merits of the ones he's raised, he has no.
Good.
Well, just as well, I'd rather that he talk to me directly about the thing.
You see, he looks at it from a different point of view.
He believes in discipline.
He believes in punishing people and they, you know, fire at people in general, and they don't.
And it just may be that, you know, I've got a snap to look behind on that speech and so forth.
He said, well,
We're going to have to get the hell out of here.
You know what I mean?
You think we're not talking about communication?
Correct.
Yeah.
And I think that may be part of the problem here.
Also, he has had his problem with the state.
He may think he has something to counsel.
But I think he may think he has something to show us.
I don't know.
I don't see.
But his problem is that he knows clearly where the power lies.
And the guy can't expect, he's a politician.
He can't expect that he's got a completely smooth path before him on everything.
Because I can't imagine that he's, well, in a way, he's got to really decide.
I don't think he can.
I have a very great loss to us.
He's so much better than Kenny is.
Oh, yeah.
And so much better than so many other ways he's such a fellow.
Well, I don't think he's that good.
I think he's...
He doesn't like being in a position of carping about this kind of stuff.
He doesn't feel he can get along with it.
And I think we've just got to...
I think, well...
I'm sure he's going to talk to me.
He's got to talk to somebody that really knows.
So I say you've got to find the time.
You know, you can take a really ridiculous part back from both of you, you know.
all the time before John and Spencer would have one.
That's ridiculous.
I think we always, it's about to start being a little off the top of our heads, don't you?
Yeah, I do.
Bobby and Romney holding their hands and barking around.
I just get right down to it.
They're going to play, they're going to play.
I can't believe that it's...
It may be that you just may be more mature than what we think.
Well, let's check it out.
It doesn't, it sure doesn't fit, I suppose, as possible.
But she's going to testify.
Why don't you just say that, that she's going to testify that I'm going to be free tomorrow.
We're going to have a matter of him.
I think he'd rather do that because I think he'd like to then have his evening.
Why do we say 3.30?
It was no more.
3.30.
They're about to make a tree, I'm guessing.
So it's a time, 3.30 or 4.00, suit his convenience to fit his own pattern.
Earthman would love to see you today.
Well, I know that one.
Yeah.
That appropriations thing is next week.
We had originally set it this week, and then we moved it because of the assignment.
And it's, they've got invitations out and all that, and that's where you can find it.
Now let's keep, let's do things this week, but as I say,
Well, I guess you've got to have some craft on you.
Not so very much, no.