On July 24, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Egil ("Bud") Krogh, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:36 pm to 1:03 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 545-003 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
...has got information on his lead.
All right, Mr. Sucker, all right.
Just kind of call the guard in, all right?
to start is to put this guy and hit it very hard.
Get it in a polygraph, take it over, and then if you don't immediately get a confession from him, start on campus.
Do you agree with that?
Yes, I do.
He said that you'll get resignations and you'll get legal action if you do it this way.
He said that.
And masks.
And masks.
That's what we're all going to do.
We'll have 20, 30 people.
Might be 30.
He said if we get 10 to 15 people, then we'll resign.
He doesn't know these people.
He didn't tell me exactly where.
Just be aware of what we'll have.
and i came back with this one you know i said all right he said we've got a prime suspect it's a final start there let's just grow the hell out of that guy and people around him in that one unit well we've got one person that comes out of dod according to al hay who is the prime suspect right now a man by the name of van cleve
who they feel is very much the guy that did spend two hours with Beecher this week.
He had access to the documents.
He apparently has views very similar to those which were reflected in the Beecher article.
And it would be my feeling that we should begin with him and those immediately around him before going to a drag and polygraph any other people.
If he doesn't pan out, then move on.
Polygraph him?
Yes, sir.
Do you understand?
Yes, sir, I do.
Well, are any of you just about talking to your W?
Well, Kate was not able to tell me at this point.
This is just what they've got from him.
from this man over in DOD that they've got this man nailed down, but they didn't give him something.
That was a leak before or something.
They don't know that either.
We're taking this here setting about twice or so.
That's right.
I don't care whether he's a hawk or a gobbler.
Some of them actually...
He's not with the government, sir.
That's it.
It's the other point here.
Sir, I don't have time for the bus.
I want you to get over there.
I want to get over there, but I don't want any gift signs or bus.
But get a bank leave and a bus.
Sir, I'm trying to give you a call there.
Fair enough, sir.
I decided something on the polygraph thing, John, that I think makes more sense.
You're trying to get a million people to... Are there millions that have top secret experiences?
No, not that many.
Well, 400,000.
Yeah, but I will tighten the nails.
Here's what I want.
I believe that's what we have to do.
I've heard it regarded all, all the people of, uh, little people did not leave.
This crap of the fact that a stenographer did it, or the wastegate paperbacks did it, it's never that case.
I've studied these cases long enough, and it's always a son of a bitch that leaves.
Do you agree or not?
This can't be.
Oh, sure, sure.
They're there, right?
So what I would like to do is to have everybody down through J.S.
something or other, you know, in the Foreign Service and so forth and so on.
And, you know what I mean, here in Washington, and just in Washington, I want all of them who have top secret clearances against me to get a pen and to agree to take part.
That's what I did.
And maybe another approach would be this, to set up, remember I already mentioned, to set up a new classification, right?
Which we would call what?
Let's just call it a new classification.
Don't use top secret for me ever again.
I never want to see top secret in this goddamn office.
I think we just saw, shall we call it, John, I believe his name, President Secure Bar, eyes only as a subject to, it doesn't mean anything anymore.
We used presidential document before with one of the ones that we were working with, but that didn't... How about, looking forward to the court case, I wonder if we could get the words national security in there.
Yeah, so that the national, uh, just say...
National security classified or national security secret or... Well, not the word secret should not be used.
All right.
Because you see, secret is now compromised.
How about privilege?
Privilege is not too strong.
National security... National security...
Restricted.
Restricted.
National security and...
I agree with that.
National security...
Restriction, priority of control, our national security, priority of security, control.
But we'll let this work out.
What I'm getting at is I want a new classification for that purpose.
And everything that I consider important, and only those things I consider important, will have that classification.
Then on that classification, every document that is out is to be numbered.
You see, there's the end of people so that we'll know what people have.
Now, the fact that a hundred had this was terrible.
That, and I want to find out why a hundred had it.
I mean, they rumbled around and said, well, they're going to clear it out.
Well, God damn it, I told them two weeks ago not to put this up.
See, they didn't follow up on it.
Nobody follows up on a God damn thing.
We've got to follow up on this thing.
We had that meeting.
Do you remember the meeting we had?
And I told that group of clowns we had around there, Rentschler and that group, what was his name?
Rentschler and Rentschler.
I said, look, let's limit the number of people.
What have they done about limiting the number of people?
Well, they're at work.
What have they done about it?
They're going to come back at you with a whole new classification scheme.
And it is.
But it is what it is.
understanding the thing with the, what I want with this, what I want with the polygraph, because you put your finger on the real problem.
A person in government or a person who has access to a policy that can and refuse to take the polygraph, nobody is to have access to the presidential clap, matter of fact, no, national security, national security,
Why don't we just say national security?
I think you're right.
National student security, not top secret national security.
special national security, or it's something like that.
But anyway, get that.
So it's just three letters, like SNS, S-N-S, or something like that.
And then on those, that kind of a thing, they say, let's limit the number of people who get them.
We know who get them.
And everybody who gets it must sign the agreement to take polygraphs.
Also, with regard to the agreement to take polygraphs, I want that to be done now with about 400 or 500 people in state defense and so forth, so that we can immediately scare the bachelors.
Would you agree with that?
Yes, sir.
We're getting a draft of that waiver prepared.
That stamp, we're having a look at what the stamp page developed first, and then how we draft the tape.
And then, Graham, I mean, just say that all people who are doing this with the top executives in government who have access to the top secret things, that should include everybody in the NFC staff, for example, when you start with that.
It should include about 100 people at probably 400 or 500 in state and 400 or 500 in defense.
and do the 300 over at the CIA, and that's it.
I don't care about these other agencies.
All CIA people have gone through a polygraph.
They take their own polygraph.
But they, obviously, then have waived any margins they refuse to take.
That's right.
No, they take a polygraph as part of their employment at the drop side.
That doesn't waive their right.
Not to take the polygraphs.
I want everybody, just have everybody who just helps to do it.
They should have that.
Every CIA person should have, should wait for the polygraph.
But I, but I'm, listen, I don't know anything about polygraphs.
I don't know how accurate they are, but I know they'll scare the hell out of you.
They scare people.
They're clumsy.
They ask a lot of tough questions, personal questions.
about a man's sex life, about what his mother was like, and things like that.
These polygraph tests, if we run them, would be more restrictive.
We'd ask four or five basic questions about the story, their familiarity, or the issues, whether they talked to Beecher, what he said to Beecher.
I bet this thing has set us now, if you are...
Incredible.
Hay has told me that... We're talking about one person.
If you do that, he's enforcing the one guy that's also going.
Yes, that's the word.
What he's objecting to is going past that.
He says you abide by yourself.
I don't think that's the point.
That's the point.
He's going on this one person now.
Okay.
And then I'll decide whether we have to go beyond it, right?
What I'd like to do is I'll do a report on this guy and go immediately around it.
Once I get back, then come back and see what else we have to do.
But we're going to start shaking them, shaking the trees.
But I keep this moving through the weekend, so we may send something back to you.
Oh, I'll be available tomorrow.
I'll be available.
I'd just like to know.
And if we catch the guy, his resignation is disputed.
And it's not quiet.
The one contingent, if you catch anybody, it's not going to be quiet.
We're going to put the goddamn story out.
He's going to be dismissed and prosecuted.
There's prosecutors that can't be.
The polygraph is not useful in prosecution.
All right.
The point is, it's a statement from the church.
It doesn't make any sense.
If you're going to catch him, he needs to be prosecuted.
It's calling you out for Satanism.
It's your knowledge of what's in I.O.S.
That's right.
That's right.
All right, sir.
Well, I just think we ought to...
It does happen.
This does affect national security in this particular one.
This isn't like Pentagon Papers.
This involves a current negotiation, and it should not have... And it's getting out.
It jeopardizes the negotiating position.
Now, God damn it, we're not going to allow it.
We just aren't going to allow it.
All right, good luck.
Thank you.
I was really dead.
The purpose of my taking, talking about the tax thing that way, as I told Connolly, was for him to carry it back to his agents of trade.
I said, now shake those people up a bit.
Tell them all some more radical ideas and so forth and so on.
And I hope that we can get to this far.
We've got these in the way now.
But, uh...
The tax thing is such a mess.
It's a real feather pillow.
Unbelievable mess, huh?
It's a feather pillow over there.
You can punch it, and it just gives, and then it comes back.
If it is, you hit it on the nose going out the door there, that there's a sort of, there's a league of people in the tax profession.
Eddie Cohen is a member of it.
Everybody that has anything to do with it is a trendsetter.
Oh, well, it's not quite the same.
They have a lot of it.
Yes.
It's very, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,
Absolutely.
Well, this is a very good .
It was very well done, very well done.
Larry issued a statement this morning recanting
And, uh, we put out a presidential statement this morning.
And John Tower made a speech on the floor of the Senate this morning with your statement and Laird's statement.
And so we're also, we'll put it out.
So maybe we can get that damn thing positioned back.
Very good candidate.
Yeah.
put out a very unequivocal statement supporting the administration's position.
That's the beauty of it.
Now, there he is.
Absolutely no precedent.
Doesn't talk a damn about what he can say, whatever.
Whatever just seems to be required.
But he had to say, well, you know, he knows better than that.
Damn it.
He wants to defend Packard.
He wants to deny whatever he does.
Well, it isn't just defending Packard.
He's, he's, he's had a discussion with them about that he can keep Packard.
That's, that's what he's working on.
We can keep Packard.
Yeah.
Packard doesn't... Packard knows that the position is different.
Let him make his own position, but God damn it, he can't have...
The cabinet officer cannot disagree with the other cabinet officer.
To hell with him.
It's not the law.
You're saying that we put out a message calmly and said you supported it.
You directed... You had directed his position, his position to your position.
Yeah.
Now what do you want to do with Arthur Burns?
Racist, all right.
But this note just came in.
George Schultz recommends against the Arthur Burns condi meeting on Monday.
I don't think a condi is going to sit on Monday.
No, you were going to meet with Burns.
I don't think we're planning to.
Well, we are as of now.
There is being scheduled.
I think we've changed our mind.
What do you call a condi and say that in view of, in view of Burns'
I just feel that I don't want the burn as cool as it heals for a few more days right now.
Who is it supposed to be?
John?
What's your service?
How do you have the care and feeding of our burners?
I don't know.
I think they saw me that the sugar stuff doesn't work.
I had a wonderful time.
You know, I said, but you know what?
Conley put his finger on it.
I said, what really makes you tick?
He said, did you see the picture in the paper this morning?
Publicity, Karen.
Art loves to get his name in the paper.
He's not going to get his name in the paper agreeing with the administration.
He gets his name in the paper disagreeing with the administration.
He doesn't believe that Art, he doesn't believe that his second round is going to help him one bit.
So I think, I think it doesn't mean we should fight him openly, but he believes that the cool treatment is necessary at this point.
Is that what you think?
Yes, sir.
Do you agree about that?
I'm not so sure I'd stop there, but I agree with what he said.
It should be done.
Solid.
cool treatment of the problem as we back, our cool treatment gets watered down by backing off of it.
But we all see Arthur frequently.
Arthur never turns down an invitation to a party.
And I think Flanagan and John Conway and some of the rest of us who do see him occasionally can't pass a word to him that he is in deep trouble with the press in the United States.
And let him worry about that.
for quite a while.
Just not quite get around to having time to see it.
The only problem is we've got this international that we're going to have to meet on eventually.
Okay, but do that at your initiative.
Oh, yes.
Not on his.
See, this was a request for a meeting with you.
His request for a meeting.
Then, the other thing is to really put the screws on him on the social.
We don't have anything so tacky here.
We keep backing off of that.
We put him on and add it into everything.
No, the social then is easy.
You just have to let him come.
Well, it's not easy because as soon as he finds out he isn't at anything, he starts calling everybody.
He said, I just want you to know it's going to be easy from now on.
We don't have many events, but with that item.
I have no problem with this just not hanging around.
And I'll tell you another thing, though, that we'll get to it, John.
Just not getting that raised.
Oh, that's all right.
That may be why you went up there yesterday.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Because that speech was written, that testimony was written four or five days before.
But I, Arthur is a very sensitive barometer.
And I think we can, we can, he can start getting the word from other people in the economic community, too, which we can put out.
And then when it starts coming back to him from quarters that he thinks it's, could you get one story leading through Colson Amorettis on our, I'm only suggesting two things for now.
In fact, one, that they, that recommendations are being made
from among the President's economic advisers that he recommend the Federal Reserve Board membership be expanded, be increased.
uh, because it's having, uh, far, you know, there's so many problems these days.
That's my point.
And the President is, that is part of the issue.
That, that will, that is, will be recommended.
Get a column out on that.
I say, well, who is it?
Well, various people within the President's, uh, within, not in the White House, just in the President's economic, uh, number of the President's economic affairs deals with it.
The other one is that, uh,
The, uh, that, uh, and also the recommendation that's been made that, in view of the, in view of the fact that the President has responsibility to pull over the mic, the President is considering legislation to, uh, well, what is, it is, it is, well, I don't know how you could put it.
It's really, it's really what has to be done eventually.
That is, the Fed has got to be brought in to, because you agree, it doesn't take branch.
Yes.
of the independence of the Fed.
Is that put seriously into question by the economic results put out?
That just commonly feels, John, Bob would be hopeful to have, he thinks it might sort of worry us a little.
If somebody can do a good column on the whole question of whether the independence of the Fed is a good idea, whether it's not really not obsolete, that concept, whether we really have to have the Fed going in one direction and the other in another direction.
I'll tell you, Burns mentioned about the vacancy that would be coming up.
He had a recommendation from Carter and George Siddow.
Are the presidents aware of that vacancy coming up and already has his man selected?
got very suspicious and fumbled and fumed and fussed and then he told him about how Eisenhower or somebody had put his own man on the Fed in order to be a pipeline to the White House and that served no useful purpose because that man was immediately kept out of anything that mattered.
But another man trying to, trying to name his own man to the federal ancestors.
You get two votes, you know, you get this one guy who's resigning, you get another one in January, uh, on a, just turn, end of term.
We're, we're gonna fill a bowl with basically easy money men.
George says he's, huh?
George said both, both he and Collier are under orders from you to find the easiest money man in town.
Well, well.
That's the way you fight the game.
We just made a mistake there.
The thing to do is ask them.
The thing to do is get an easy money man who is a...
Has he got a little public flair who would go out and fuss things up in the papers?
He does.
If Lee Parker keeps him out of things, I don't want to fight with him.
The next one's probably going to fight him.
Yeah.
Well, you have some guy who says that the chairman has frozen me out of the decision.
Sure.
Yeah.
I disagree with the chairman.
Yeah.
They're wrong.
He's a statutory member of this board.
Yeah.
For example, did Blackhall always disagree with Martin?
Martin, remember?
He was always out in the field.
Does everybody disagree with Martin?
No, Martin's problem is conceit.
I think that's, I think, would you agree or disagree?
I think it's Achilles' heel.
I think it's where we can get at it.
And probably the only place you can get at it, you can't impeach him.
His problem is people's fallibility.
His vulnerability is his conceit.
He's got a terrible, yes, but it's a terrible problem.
And also, there's a hell of a problem with ingratitude.
I mean, yeah, I really feel that.
I mean, we have taken him, we've given him everything and put him in this position.
And a hell of a lot of people just didn't want it in there, you know.
They thought he was too old.
No, I think, uh, but that's all right.
We'll just have to work with it.
Sergeant Martin was already to make the deal with us.
That's what we knew it was Arthur he was dealing with, that he wouldn't leave.
I think Martin's been talking about that a little bit.
Has he?
I saw something a while back.
But is Martin disapproval of Archer?
Let me say Archer is better than Martin.
Martin was always often downgraded in his own way, knocking the hell out of things, and also was bad on policy.
Archer used to try to do something on the policy.
His problem is that he decides what the economic policy of the government should be, that if the government does not follow what he does, he then proceeds to rent us out.
Now, we cannot have that.
Right?
He has a very blunt instruct that he doesn't know.
Okay.
Thank you, John.
Take the day off.
Later.
Thank you.
Oh, please.
I really wanted to.
Now we've got some things to clean up here.
The TV's out here already.
I guess we could go now.
And it's clear.
The crow just might have spoken.
Yeah, that smells pretty good.
He said, somebody were talking to me just a few hours later.
He had seen the doctor talking to the critical thing.
And he has a deadly fear of polygraph repercussions because they used to burn him quite extensively after the defense department.
He was not when he was in that Cuban guerrilla in the business after the base.
He was running, I guess, and all of that had to go on polygraphs.
because they kept screws on them pretty tight.
And he said it created an enormous turmoil.
I don't want to use it.
I want to scare the bastards.
And said, Brian, let them think we're going to use it.
Then when we get a good lead, go out and use it on one.
So you have some credibility to the draft.
I don't know why, why is it that some, that Laird or Rodger or somebody didn't come over to the White House the day that thing leaked and said, look, we're concerned about it and we're trying to find it out.
I don't understand that at all.
He says Rodgers is just totally cooperative on this.
He did call him and he did make a start to explain it, but Rodgers called him and said, we've got to move on this thing and this is our chance.
Rodgers takes him and says, you are.
Do it very openly.