Nixon, Bunker & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Nguyen Van Thieu

2:46:01I think New Jersey had some.
2:46:03Well, we are.
2:46:06We were waiting at your instructions.
2:46:10We felt very, very heavily in California.
2:46:14I think it may be that we overdid it because some of the people who look at it, the mothers that sent me, are asking for trouble by going so heavy there.
2:46:28So maybe we should back off a little bit from that.
2:46:32But we've just noticed practically all of it in California.
2:46:35Well, when you come down to a church, it's the major source of our trouble.
2:46:40We look in terms of numbers that are unemployed, because it affects the national number.
2:46:45It isn't just California that affects the national number.
2:46:51California, whatever it is, 9% in Southern California just knocks the hell out of us.
2:46:57Well, that's an important trouble area, but there are others that have also been hit.
2:47:01Michigan...
2:47:02The Washington-Seattle area, New Jersey, I guess, has a few.
2:47:06And Kansas, I guess, has some.
2:47:10So they're scattered around.
2:47:12Scattered fewer than those in California, I guess, basically.
2:47:16Just say there's more aerospace.
2:47:18And he's not going to even throw something to Washington.
2:47:21He's not going to mean much, but I don't do it.
2:47:24That's justification for saying you want Washington.
2:47:28It's the aerospace...
2:47:30Well, anyway, we'll see you tomorrow.
2:47:33All right.
2:47:33Now, I will, uh, I will give after this word that it's very driving for you to discuss it with me in the comments, and that's all.
2:47:40Well, I'll have to wait for it.
2:47:42But you won't have to go that far.
2:47:45I don't trust you to lose me.
2:47:46I don't want to see you.
2:47:49Just say that I'm thinking of something in terms of down the road.
2:47:54Say it.
2:47:55Oh, my God.
2:47:57Sometimes I walk over there and I want a word with you, but I would like to ask you as to how he would operate again up there.
2:48:09He has written your own memorandum earlier, but I'd like you to play this thinking about how he would set up the board, what he would call it, and that sort of thing.
2:48:20How are you?
2:48:21Good to see you.
2:48:57Is that okay?
2:49:29Oh, yeah.
2:49:29First in the United States, second beyond that.
2:49:34Henry's got a win?
2:49:35Yes, Henry's got a win.
2:49:37Is he as much of a conspirator as people say he is?
2:49:42Henry?
2:49:42Yeah.
2:49:43Oh, he's the best.
2:49:43Oh, good.
2:49:43Well, I ought to say, we did appreciate your masterful handling of this card.
2:49:52I don't know if anybody over there
2:50:29Yes, he called me right away.
2:50:32He said he thought it was very constructive.
2:50:38Of course, he had to split the time open to bring this piece to Vietnam and also to this part of the world.
2:50:53But he didn't have a call.
2:51:01No, he put his telephone, he just heard it, you know.
2:51:04He made it a statement too, didn't he?
2:51:05Yes, he just said it.
2:51:07Well, actually he told me when I called on him, but after what, he thought it closed the relations to China.
2:51:16He said it would help with the North Sea.
2:51:18Yes.
2:51:19And he said that some of it, my son, was for love.
2:51:22Thank you, I think, for finding it.
2:51:26No problem.
2:51:30I think he makes a very good point in one respect.
2:51:37The reason he has for not vetoing is that we will not lay the proper precedent for him.
2:51:48His view is that once we have made the other rules that we're planning,
2:51:59But then, you just veto in a minute, and throw the ball right back over to the Congress.
2:52:06But here, to do it now, he thinks there's some balance about it.
2:52:12Now that's his argument for whatever it's worth.
2:52:15And I hate to roll over on those bills, I must say, but I still want to see tomorrow what the congressional chances are if we do veto.
2:52:27Okay.
2:52:28Yeah.
2:52:29Now, he said, Saturday when I talked to him, he was speculating too about how things might develop.
2:52:38That if we do get some agreement of peace, some agreement with the other side, that we have a guarantee.
2:52:47He said, I think that the two important countries are the United States and China.
2:52:58And a guarantee.
2:53:01Robert doesn't know this, but his reasoning being that the Chinese are there in Asia, and we are in Asia, and the Soviet are along.
2:53:11You know, Henry, the point about the Soviet in here, Henry, it's one of these pathological pro-Indians around here.
2:53:21Yes, that's good.
2:53:22I always trouble keeping in mind, but anyway, the reason is...
2:53:27I have the right to believe it, don't you think, Henry?
2:53:32The thing is about the Indian environment, I would be damned concerned about having my great and good friend be the Soviet, and the Chinese sitting out there, and the United States, the hell of a long way off now.
2:53:49Did you see any investment?
2:53:50Oh, yeah, I did.
2:53:51I said to the Jew, if you want to have yourself abused, and I decided to do the same thing.
2:54:00I just want to tell you, we've been talking all day.
2:54:01Just a few hours.
2:54:02Just a few hours.
2:54:02He said I want to take him home.
2:54:04I'm starting over to the church soon.
2:54:05I don't know if he can.
2:54:05He hasn't accepted your invitation.
2:54:07He's kind, you know.
2:54:07Well, that was nice.
2:54:08Thank you for your care.
2:54:09Thank you.
2:54:30Well, that's good, that's not.
2:54:33It's not, it's not, it's not, because... She would, she would respond to the invitation.
2:54:36She would blow the water before the invitation.
2:54:39That's good.
2:54:41Well, yes, the way you talk to them, they're just ridiculous, those goddamn Indians.
2:54:49As you know, they're just as much false as, frankly, as the Pakistanis, in my opinion.
2:54:54They want to cause this trouble.
2:54:56Well, but, yeah, yeah, it's not me, it's not the whole thing.
2:55:32Christ sakes, just imagine our own position.
2:55:35Murder is the death.
2:55:37What did he announce?
2:55:41He was going to try for what?
2:55:43Try for treason, for possession.
2:55:44Is that true?
2:55:46He can't do that.
2:55:46I told him that, but I think it's going to end up like this.
2:55:56Unless he's not trying to learn to love me.
2:56:03...was to expel so many Hindus from East Pakistan.
2:56:30It's a good cause.
2:56:33Well, can we still avoid a war?
2:56:35Yes.
2:56:37Now, come to Vietnam.
2:56:39Give me a brief summary of what you concluded first in the election.
2:56:45My question is, of course, the field of the election.
2:56:49I think it was quite stupid in his hand to compete.
2:56:53It was completely unnecessary.
2:56:56Why did you do that?
2:56:57Well, there are two reasons.
2:56:59First,
2:57:00He dislikes them.
2:57:01They dislike each other.
2:57:02That's one reason.
2:57:04The second reason is that he's smart under the fact that he was elected by only 35% of the vote.
2:57:13And the communists have thrown this out there.
2:57:17He's an already president.
2:57:21The Germans, again, he said, are doing more than one semantics.
2:57:25And...
2:57:45Joe had a big majority.
2:57:47He had 56 businessmen.
2:57:49The men at Key divided the rest of it more deeply.
2:57:53And I told him this.
2:57:54I said, you have no problem.
2:57:56You've got all the government apparatus.
2:57:58These guys are all fixed already.
2:58:01Problems chiefs, they're all his appointees, they're all military people, district chiefs, the whole business.
2:58:09And I said, this...
2:58:11There's no need for you to do this, and I can't give you assurances that if men drops out, the election is undetested, and the Congress is going to keep on supporting voting aid for you.
2:58:25And, uh, I'll send you to see what they did with Greece, and, uh, and, uh, what?
2:58:32He's, uh, he's gone this road now.
2:58:38Yeah, well, men won't drop out of it.
2:58:42That's very stupid.
2:58:44Yes, that's the end of August.
2:59:13Now, Hugh is convinced he'll stay the course.
2:59:18This is why, I think, one reason that he's taken this, made this move, thinking he'd be safe with Ben in the race, but I'm sure he's going to stay.
2:59:36And if he should go out for
3:00:06Well, we don't care who goes.
3:00:08If senators want to go, they go.
3:00:09No, we're going to have one good group on their own, headed by a billion.
3:00:14No, this is for freedom.
3:00:16I don't know the next count that's going with it.
3:00:20Oh, he's got credentials.
3:00:22Yes, they're good.
3:00:26So I think the...
3:00:30He's very closer.
3:00:33Go ahead.
3:00:35He's honest.
3:00:36Well, what do you do?
3:00:40What do you do?
3:01:01Yes, you think.
3:01:02I think the general has done a lot at this time of the year, but it's been lower this year than I've ever known.
3:01:10Well, last year at this time it was 78, and last week it was 14.
3:01:1514 is 78.
3:01:15This week it's 18.
3:01:1618.
3:01:17Oh, well, with us, because our troops are not carrying on any offensive operations.
3:01:26It was all defensive.
3:01:28The old combat started out by the Vietnamese, you know.
3:01:33Yeah, but they're, they're, you know, taking a good break.
3:01:37Oh, yes, you can take it.
3:01:39Well, last week they were the lowest I've seen them for a long time, about 189, but they've been running about 225 to 300.
3:01:50Yes, oh yes.
3:02:17It's running very low, very low.
3:02:21Can't make me out at 18.
3:02:22No.
3:02:22Now, what do you expect in the way of an offensive out there in your village road across the DMZ?
3:02:44Are you expecting to give them a crash before the election?
3:02:47Well, perhaps so, although I'm not sure.
3:02:51I think the indications are that they're not going to do it.
3:02:55That they try something, but they're rather, for me, intelligent to begin now.
3:03:05They're rather going to turn their attention to political work.
3:03:09Or just get to support...
3:03:15I think so.
3:03:15Well, actually, it could not be said that when you look at it, we've been there a long time.
3:03:25We've been telling a lot of people.
3:03:30Cambodia gave them a little punch.
3:03:39Laos, even for the difficult ones, as well as we should have also tried.
3:03:43But that's another reason, I think, I was going to say that the level of, actually, the punishment they took in Laos and Cambodia, and the punishment they've taken on their tradition.
3:03:55Now, the...
3:03:57I think it's got to work.
3:04:00You see, for instance, for instance, for example,
3:04:04of the input from North Vietnam into Laos and the trail.
3:04:10Last year, about 37% of it got through.
3:04:15This year, only 14% of it has been through.
3:04:24But it was either consumed on the way or destroyed.
3:04:27It's consumed in Lausanne, 719 in Laos, consumed in Cambodia, and it's...
3:04:34It's way down.
3:04:35Our invitation is much more effective.
3:04:37I think that's a good matter.
3:04:40That's a good matter.
3:04:41They in fact got only about a third of the supplies through this.
3:04:44Very good.
3:04:46What are your objectives?
3:04:48What are your objectives?
3:04:49What are you going to do next with our horses down here?
3:04:54Well, we're moving ahead with one.
3:04:57We're strengthening the forces in I-4 and 2-4.
3:05:00We're going to create another division.
3:05:04What I think their deal is to split the first division and then add two each, half of it.
3:05:13And we're giving him, as you know, a heavy tanker tagger up there, too.
3:05:21And they're making arrangements for moving the reserves out if necessary.
3:05:25And he'll need, I think, another division in two corps.
3:05:32I think we can do that under the present ceiling of 1,100,000.
3:05:35Now, can you, based on what I predict, can you ask this?
3:05:40Do you think that, first, that likely a...
3:05:48Do you think from a military standpoint he will be able to hold on through 72?
3:05:57Yes, he can.
3:05:59Yes, he does.
3:06:00He thinks he can handle himself?
3:06:02He thinks he can handle himself through 72.
3:06:05What is the figure, if I may digress a little bit, of Ken Cooke?
3:06:13The plan, if you still ask the plan that he described to me when I was there, was that as soon as the rainy season was over, I had to be back home.
3:06:42Yes, but he says that he can strengthen the forces in I-Corps, II-Corps, and carry on in III-IV-Corps plus Cambodian operations.
3:07:00But does he still have that 5-division operation?
3:07:11I don't know whether he's still thinking of populations or not.
3:07:15He's talking about a great thing.
3:07:19Now, you feel that, what is the major danger in the next year?
3:07:24Your judgment would be that in 72 is the year they took, with the American withdrawal, or something unique, some sort of Dave Wardu withdrawal, or any other attack to be accomplished, and that he still survives, that's your view at this point?
3:07:40Yes, I think so.
3:07:42Yes, I think so, and I talked to you on Saturday about this, and he said, ah, what was he still doing?
3:07:50Well, now, he's over in the treatment, and it's now after next year, anyway.
3:08:02Now, ah, and he said his first problem was to strengthen his muscles in my core,
3:08:14It would be bad from the point of view of this situation.
3:08:20We think it's going to blow out in 72.
3:08:25If we could slow it down a little in the first part of the year, speed it up.
3:08:38As you know, the Koreans have taken down about 10,000 Marines out there.
3:08:45which I think we're very glad to see go, because Ben Cholson and the Russians and the Vietnamese are there, but the other two divisions have not stayed.
3:09:03And in the end, he thinks they may also, 72, and therefore wants another division.
3:09:14He thinks that he can handle that.
3:09:29It's gone pretty well.
3:09:31In the southern provinces of my call, there's been some regression, I think, in the security situation after we pulled out
3:09:44But, if you're aware, I'm going up there to let go, and tell me if there are a few more regional forces, units up there in both provinces, maybe get them stripped down.
3:10:00Well, we try and account that they won't do any controlling.
3:10:02There will be a few regional forces if you let them down.
3:10:06Yes, but this is funny, it's not true.
3:10:12In the Delta, they're doing most of the fighting.
3:10:15No, I mean, there's only two.
3:10:17No, there's only two.
3:10:18In the case of Kwong Nam and Kwong Nai, those two provinces, they're the ones who are having trouble.
3:10:27You're, of course, the major in these activities.
3:10:31Yes.
3:10:31They're not very helpful.
3:10:33I said, oh, yeah.
3:10:35You did that, I think.
3:10:37What do you think?
3:10:38Well, I mean... Well, I think one thing... Have you ever agreed anything?
3:10:43Well, I...
3:10:44I said he tells me the Elizabethan transcript.
3:10:49Yes, I know.
3:10:50I think so.
3:10:52You, Bruce.
3:10:54Yes.
3:10:56Yes, that's correct.
3:10:58Yes, that's right.
3:11:01He doesn't want it.
3:11:02He doesn't want it.
3:11:03He shouldn't have it.
3:11:04Then he has to, you know, he's got to hold his damn people together.
3:11:09He doesn't have it.
3:11:11He doesn't have it.
3:11:12I think that, in reading the transcripts of the last few meetings, it seems to me there's been a distinct change.
3:11:19And I have swiped it through several things.
3:11:24First, this is kind of eponymous.
3:11:27They've had to get us kicked.
3:11:29Oh, sure.
3:11:30First place, they said nothing.
3:11:31They didn't know what to say for about two weeks.
3:11:35And they said, well, we'd better come to Washington.
3:11:37We're going to run our own show, you know.
3:11:39And they said it for about a week.
3:11:41And that's, I think, one thing.
3:11:44Secondly, I think that no matter how well disciplined they are, they've taken tremendous losses
3:11:59They've fallen, they've fallen, they've lost us, and their economy is in a bad shape.
3:12:07It's a terrible shape now.
3:12:08And really, when you think of both Cambodia and Aung San Suu Kyi, they're counting each other, they're killing the hell out of them.
3:12:17And they're fighting for Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam.
3:12:19And today, just today, they've got to be here again.
3:12:21In Laos, for example, this year, one power, three books, almost all of them, managed out again.
3:12:26Yeah, yeah.
3:12:27I think this is a very distinct bearing on this.
3:12:35I guess the key to it, from the way I analyze it, and I agree, is that it's cute.
3:12:51If you give him two to his head, then they agree to something.
3:12:56But can't they agree without getting two to his head?
3:12:59And that's what it really gets down to.
3:13:01I think the other hand is to give him two to his head.
3:13:05Why would three to him?
3:13:06They won't agree.
3:13:06They don't have to agree to anything.
3:13:08It doesn't go down to that.
3:13:12So I think that's what they're teetering on down on the edge.
3:13:17That's why he don't tell us back.
3:13:18Yes, oh, absolutely.
3:13:19Well, we'll get a few indications if he comes back at the end of this week to vanish.
3:13:30Then there's a strong possibility that they have something.
3:13:34He doesn't come back.
3:13:37It's over.
3:13:38Well, it's either over or they come back.
3:13:41Well, I don't know.
3:13:42Maybe we'll run over there.
3:13:43It's ridiculous.
3:13:45Well, if they make me come over there,
3:13:47I think, unless we overestimate his Harvard neighbors, his Harvard neighbors have a damn good interest in getting this thing settled.
3:14:16Ja.
3:14:16Ja.
3:14:17Ja.
3:14:42Are we doing enough?
3:14:43By the way, Henry, I want to be sure, are we leading enough stuff there?
3:14:49By God, we've got to lead the stuff in Vietnam.
3:14:53Let me tell you, we are going to have one hell of a time with this Congress.
3:14:59A hell of a time in getting funds for Vietnam for military purposes after this is over.
3:15:05Also, if we make some kind of arrangement here, we may have it all done.
3:15:13What we want to do is to sock them off and fill their gut.
3:15:18We're in the process now.
3:15:20Don't let the damn services chase us out of there.
3:15:24Just leave it there.
3:15:25I approve of that.
3:15:29Take water at a two-year stockage level and fill 15 of everything sent to ammunition.
3:16:04These M48s have done a great morale to... Are they quite a tank?
3:16:11Yes, they've got a small tank, and the off-evenings have bigger tanks than we have.
3:16:16That's ridiculous.
3:16:18What the hell's the matter with Abrams?
3:16:25He didn't have...
3:16:27He could have got them.
3:16:29He didn't know they had a tank.
3:16:34with great intelligence.
3:16:35But anyway, getting back the tanks now, our tanks now, the tanks we're giving them will be as big as their tanks.
3:16:43Or at least, you know, I think they'll have a fire department.
3:16:46Yes, yes.
3:16:47I remember in the early days of World War II, you know, our tanks were shot in all with the Germans.
3:16:53Yeah.
3:16:53But, you know, we had those stinking little tanks.
3:16:56Yeah.
3:16:56Ridiculous.
3:16:58Yeah.
3:16:58Oh, I think of that when they sent 48s.
3:17:01On Iran, too.
3:17:03Yeah.
3:17:04And we would have one battalion evacuated this year.
3:17:10Yeah.
3:17:14I think it's a long road, but we have, oh my gosh, you know, you stop to think of all the criticism we take, not answering the seven points of the rest, I was just thinking, I read their damn faces will be, I don't even sell, but we put out the record.
3:17:37Isn't that the record?
3:17:38That's the record.
3:17:39Because we had nine voters, and we reported, and they told us that nine
3:17:49Well, anyway, we've come a long way.
3:17:56We've come this far, and we're not going to cave in.
3:18:00One of the things that really, the Chinese thing, it's like Henry knows, we didn't do it because we did not.
3:18:10We did it a lot quicker, we just, because Vietnam could have made it one way or another, but one thing it has done, it has driven all Henry's friends, our critics, his former friends, they're now his friends again, so, right out of the wall, because they, you know, what can they make it up to?
3:18:33Greg, tell what else is about how you're even welcome in New York, and how it pushes you over to the watering places.
3:18:41I got a big stack of invitations to go to college in New York, sir.
3:18:46It's for you and me, buddy.
3:19:02But the 1960s completely behind the movie is not the 1960s.
3:19:06Really?
3:19:07Yeah, that's right.
3:19:08Oh yeah, that's great.
3:19:11That's nice.
3:19:11He's just solidly behind.
3:19:15Great!
3:19:16He's a great power.
3:19:17Power and strength.
3:19:23Oh, he probably even proves it every moment he's here.
3:19:31The district killed him before we delivered the article yesterday.
3:19:35All right.
3:19:37Isn't that something?
3:19:39It's weird.
3:19:39I've read that note.
3:19:41He had an article saying that the only reason the president organized this Peking expedition was to have to avoid, to be able to avoid action in seven points of view.
3:19:53Isn't that wrong?

Nixon, Bunker & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Nguyen Van Thieu

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on August 9, 1971

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