Conversation 572-005

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Mr. President?

Hello, how are you?

Good to see you again.

How are you doing, Mr. Carter?

Good to see you.

When you were there, I remember, on our visit, you had just arrived just before that, two weeks before.

Yeah, that's right.

You had just come to this place.

And I've been seeing folks before that, too.

I remember about last night, when I was out there in 62nd, you were in the second floor.

Do you like it?

I do like it, and I think things are going quite well.

Yeah.

How do you think Saharo is doing?

I think he's doing well.

I think he's doing better.

Since I've been down there, I think it's been a process of just taking on experience and self-confidence.

How does he get along, Saharo?

What kind of team is he building?

Are there enough competent people?

Is he relying too much on the military?

Does he have a lot of young cops coming up and so forth?

He just, after the recent election, has made some claims to the cabinet and keeps these things very close to his chest, but you know how.

He's quite better at this than he thought he saw.

That's right.

We're entirely the civilian experts.

He juggled over the head of planning

solid for his number two man, and so on, so that he actually has strengthened that side of it in the, right after an overwhelming victory to which he, you know, really owes the army, military leadership.

He's sensitive to, what about this, this, to Harvard's relationship with Pollock.

Well, there's a little less than absolutely the closest there.

In fact, he keeps most people at a little arm's length.

He has a very great reserve.

But Malik did himself a lot of good during this election.

He went out and campaigned.

for the group that was supporting the president was quite effective.

And I think that Malik's stock has gone up, and of course Malik is president of the General Assembly.

This is a...

This is a prestige item for Indonesia, and I think he appreciates Malik.

Well, they're coming down there.

They have crazy numbers, and quite a few are staying.

The...

The figures are now about a million and a half dollars of investment, about a third of that's American.

Well, they're treated well.

Now, there are a lot of obstacles.

There are a lot of headaches and irritations because of the

lack of experience, the bureaucracy, the, you know, the hands out and all that kind of thing.

But the Indonesians are interested in how things are going and we have a little dialogue that goes on in a kind of a delicate way about what's wrong and then they are making attempts to fix it.

And just this morning I read a report about some improvements they've made in the customs in the harbor and so on, which has been one of the bottlenecks.

So I think they're trying hard.

Now, it's going to take a long time to get everything smooth, but those who want to have the will and the patience to get used to a different environment and find a way through some of these difficulties are quite happy, I think, with the situation.

There is good will there, at least.

I think you see the big developments, of course, have been oil, quite encouraging, and timber, which has gone from, oh, they have the world's largest supply of tropical hardwoods, and it's gone from 10 million in a year to 100 million in the course of three or four years, the annual export earnings, and will go higher, and they say they can market to,

a half a billion dollars worth of hardwood timber without depleting the resource.

I don't know whether this is true or not, but this isn't said.

This is a question about how you preserve and retain that resource.

How worried are they about our change?

Well, I do.

I'm a little nervous about it being done because you know they don't trust the Chinese at all.

But they do appreciate why you're doing it.

I don't think...

So I'm careful that we, you know, we can't do the thing that the Chinese actually were doing there, that prior to the visit, that the head of the Supreme Court over there started basically putting herself into the position of Indonesia.

Here's Indonesia, a weak country, militarily.

A country that is also a potential subject for immigration and subversion of all rights.

Here's the United States.

6,000, 8,000 miles away with a convention in the Pacific, a convention in terms of certain economic assistance and a military presence, which we will wait and retain, but a military presence, I'm pretty sure, is not going to inevitably be less in the future than it is in the present.

However, the United States, in terms of superpowers in the nuclear club, that is a deterrent to any power in the world.

It goes beyond a certain point.

It doesn't make any difference.

Now, the long-term answers to that question.

Is it better for the United States, 6,000 miles away, to be in a position of

current confrontation on the mainland of Asia with another country, China, or even Canada, or the United States.

Totally realistic, eyes open, knowing that their interests are very different from ours.

Their systems are very different from ours.

and that they, we respect them for what they are, they respect us for what they are, nobody's under their illusions.

I am, I hope that you know, there are no manners, so it's the Chinese.

I know that if you know that the Chinese of any kind

are damn true.

And so they do what's in their hands.

In the long term, in the long term, it seems to us that the Pacific will be safer, and particularly when you see the solar building over Donald Trump too, if the United States on a step-by-step, very precise basis, proceeds toward a normal relation with China.

Now, this is a very different stuff than Trump, and this is why they should be concerned.

They have the idea that we are doing this for a reason.

Most of us are good, normal friends, and it's very gracious, which, of course, is the wrong reason that we were always wrong about Trump.

And it was never progressing.

They forget what happened in Korea.

They forget what they did in Vietnam.

They forget what they did in India.

They forget what they did in Taiwan, and all the things that people in our country do.

and they forget it's a common system.

And really, it's just a question of getting to know each other and so forth.

If that were the case, I would be petrified in that nation.

But what they have to realize, as far as I am concerned, no one is perhaps

more pragmatic and goes into this kind of a operation with a more, shall we say, totally unemotional attitude.

And this does not mean we don't go there with the idea that we want to talk if they want to, but it's just culture.

And I think that the United States playing that kind of a role, just as we are not, frankly, playing that kind of a role with the Soviets.

Not with the Soviets.

We've got relations.

We negotiate about Berlin and we talk about the Mideast and so forth and so on.

And I must say it's hard going and usually we are done in to an extent.

They're done in a little bit.

Now we're talking about Seoul and so forth and so on.

That's one.

The other way, and I think the other way was right for a certain period of time until we got together militarily and so forth.

The other way is to simply say, I thought you did a good job.

Now there comes a point where we negotiate not with the idea that they should change or that we should change.

That's the same thing.

Nobody should change.

American change.

They are the same way.

Not that they're just Russians.

The Chinese, in fact, they're communists.

They're going to be communists.

And they have a different attitude about the world.

They still want more.

And we want to keep interests perhaps in the right of choice.

And I think if that, looking at the parallel in Europe,

and looking to grow the United States in the light of Asia, that Indonesia will be, in the long run, that the United States can be more effective as a friend of Indonesia, where we can talk to the Chinese, than in a position where we can't.

Mr. Justice?

Yes.

I think that, you see, as Professor Gordon said to me, I thought quite solemnly that he, you know,

He was worried about the Chinese and so on.

Indonesia's interests were one thing, but world peace was, of course, a greater interest.

And he recognized the effort through his tensions and the interest of world peace was an interest of everyone.

We just had a group of the generals yesterday.

I was sitting with Marshal Green.

They came over to talk.

just about the big picture.

And they really, what they really want, I think, is reassurance that this isn't going to lead to further American withdrawal.

This was just yesterday in the State Department.

This was General Hassan al-Tabib, who is the chief of staff for policy in the plan.

He's kind of their thinker.

And he came over.

He just wants to go out on their own.

No, we won't.

There is some, it's only a matter of degree, I think you should know very strongly what my views are, that matter of degree, but there is somewhat of a difference of opinion and high circles around the government and it's too

What our response should be is to Haro's request for military assistance in distinguishing our discretion from the economy.

All that I know is this, that I am convinced that a country that is a thousand miles

uh, territory, uh, the 110 million people.

Unless it has a significant military clout for internal purposes, it cannot surprise me.

But as my own country, I also know that when you've got military manhandling, you've got to have some assurance on there must be a balance.

But I want you to lean in terms of what he thinks he needs.

But I feel that it's very strong.

I did not go along with some people here in the Foreign Service who, quite honestly, whether it's Latin America where they want to get rid of all of our military missions, or in a place like Indonesia,

and the best decision for the United States is to pass the month economically.

So I think that's very important that he be reassured.

He asked me about that when he was here a couple of months.

And that is why he was very, very strong.

This is what we're trying to do is to have a balanced program.

so that one will reinforce the other rather than undermine it.

I think we're on the right track now, sir, with this new program, this level of 25 million.

I think it's about right.

Is that what you mean?

Absolutely.

Yes, sir.

What is the situation?

Are they talking more about Vietnam, or do they sort of think that's about now?

You know, Malik's attitude on Vietnam is to keep his lines open with North Vietnam, hoping that somehow, someday, they can be of use in finding some settlement there.

Of course, they are, I think, watching our withdrawal from South Vietnam with very great interest.

They don't want it to be too fast.

And then, you know, they're afraid we will go too fast.

Do they worry much about the two elections and that sort of thing?

That's how they have a problem with the Senate, though.

Well, it's good to see you.

It's good to meet you.

Oh, well, I appreciate it.

You're my best friend.

Best friend.

Came through the country.

You have a pair of cup laces.

You have another.

There's a trinket for you.

All right.

Let's see what else we've got here.

A couple little gifts for visitors.

Oh, yes.

This is a bookmark.

You'll need that at the presidential seal.

Thank you so much.

That's all the pastors get when they come in.

Good to see you there, Connie.

We do appreciate you working.

Thank you.

Ted, get it out of here now.

You're just getting really in need.

Right, sir.