Conversation 581-002

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Huh?

Yeah, sure.

That's exactly right.

Now, these are used back in the Middle East, you know.

Well, I think that there was a crook in town, you know, for a certain amount of time.

We can't, I can't get a feel of the dance tonight.

I thought the yard had died yesterday.

Nothing went on that day, huh?

Nothing went on that day at all.

I got nothing to stand here.

And I can't, uh...

No, there was just two of them along in there.

But on the... 30 minutes before the intermission.

I hope that...

He still talked very frankly about it, and the result...

You know, it's going to make a rather kind of a six-point piece, kind of the speech of D-Man, where he's going to propose, well, re-propose some of the things that are going on.

But Gromyko isn't one that I... Did you have to come up and talk to him?

Because he seemed to think that he'd get some language right before he got to D-Man.

But Gromyko was very... You know, he's a man of usual speech.

How are you, sir?

I've been along with your Chinese friends.

What?

Probably beyond the point of any change pertaining to other factors.

Yes.

In terms of the substance, it doesn't really change anything.

Now, everybody knows the trip is going to take place, and all this does is just simply remind them again of the main arrangements.

But it's just too damn bad, isn't it?

The time they take is not right.

They want to apparently have it earlier, have the physical earlier.

So that's where we get to play the nonsense up.

Again, you get a rundown of the things.

It's very close.

We're fighting, yes, still, but extremely close.

We think we've got to win this important question, this procedural vote.

We've got to get that done first.

If there was a way you could mention that to Sir Alec, if he's going to be wanting stuff from us, not that they can support us, but they can abstain on priority for the important question.

They can abstain on the important question.

That would be important.

I don't know whether you want to mix that in, but if you could, it would be helpful.

We're going to have to do some things like that in order to guarantee this first vote, this important question vote.

Carrie, we think we can get the votes to do that.

And then it's a procedural thing, a little confusing.

The Albanian resolution is not going to get two-thirds of the vote.

And then we think we've got a very 50-50-ish kind of chance to win our...

our dual representation.

The problem with this thing, and Henry's very well aware of it, is that we're fighting kind of a psychological battle.

The arguments are, well, you have to be serious if the president's going to Peking.

You're fighting a battle of people who obviously don't want to see us lose.

We're separated from our allies on this.

And the Scandinavians who normally are helpful to us in certain things up there are just solid.

They're hard-headed.

And so I think, I think it's winnable.

I think this thing would be canted, as I've told Henry, will not be helpful at all.

But what we've got to do is turn it around.

Yeah, but it's a real question.

It's a real question of how we're going to do.

You don't think there's any way we can shift it around?

Yes, it did last year.

The date was really set.

proposed by us in august when we thought the vote would be at the end of november and then they accepted it in september

And the reason they did it is because they think they're, you know, last year the vote was in November, middle of November, and the reason they do it is they think they're in better shape.

They should have shook up a little by the public vote we had the other day, so they're not quite sure, but they're still pressing, and the procedures there are such that normally, what we've tried to do is to, I, without discussing with anybody, but on Henry's, you know, try to find if we could put some other thing in between, or if we could get some other...

Unless there was some...

major security council thing, but we can't engineer those things too well.

So I think really we're just gonna have to make the best of it.

We'll have to be, I'm worried a little bit about the political aspects of losing for you, and if we don't go through the, you know, people don't understand we're doing everything we can to win on it, and we're getting some help, though, from Congress,

will be handled will be, and of course it's awfully hard to say, but it will be handled as a routine, just advancement.

Well, that would be helpful.

We're not going to make any, we're not going to do anything in the way of a, I mean, it's just not going to be .

But it'll be big.

I mean, no use.

I mean, it has to.

We find this big news.

But that's the way we find it.

That's right.

But it will be big.

Yeah.

I'm afraid, I'm sure.

Yes, sir.

I know.

So you figure there that it is.

Because there you've got everybody so damn smart.

There everybody knows everything.

You know, he's going to tell what this means.

I mean, that's the thing.

We're up to it.

That's what actually happens.

What they do.

And you hear all kinds of interpretations by these smart diplomats who know exactly what Henry talked about and P. King.

They know exactly what you're going to do.

And so it's that kind of a thing, rather than the fact itself.

It's the psychology.

It's the, it's the, it's the, well, probably around the, yeah, I say probably because there is some flexibility, but just kind of in that last, last, very end of the month, around the 28th or 29th or somewhere in there.

We're assuming now that the debate would start on the 19th, which would be the latest we think we can get it started.

They warn that the Albanians are pushing to start it on the 14th or the 15th.

But I think that at the end of the week, we think we can delay it over until it falls.

The other problem that Henry brought up to me is our speaking on it.

We're so kind of quarterbacking the thing that it's going to be awfully difficult for me to say nothing because our allies are going to be... No, I was wondering, we were exploring all possibilities, whether the American speech could be put after I've left the...

since the debate will go on for three or four days after I've left there.

And that's still possible, Mr. President, but procedurally they're going to be doing it.

Procedurally, I have to be there prepared to say, now wait a minute, they're going to try to separate our idols.

That's true.

I think there was a reaction quite open, you know, giving it all we've got, so win or lose, people aren't going to say, look, they held back on this thing.

without disrupting anything Henry's doing.

I just think it's terribly important.

Um, politically and every other way, I mean, and there's a big... George has a point there, that we have to be able to finish problem here.

We have a desire, which of course is... as it goes, goes on.

It's very important.

There are other reasons to have it go on.

Things that don't go on.

I think that on that point, since we are going at it, we better let George fight hard.

In terms of his public fighting, I don't think it makes a hell of a lot of difference.

I think I can make the case that the best way to win a vote is to have what hopefully will be a decent speech just before the vote, and the Congress, rather than the guy who picked up the first thing.

The last vote is the best.

The last speech is the best.

you know, fighting on procedure, at least.

But no one understands those anyway.

And we're trying to buoy up our allies in this thing who are... First, Japan has got a lot at stake on this.

Is there any... Oh, yeah.

Here, I opened it, but I was just thinking, is there any way that they could...

Well, we still wouldn't like a leave, but I think if we sent a message to Sato, not through the embassy, but through our own channels,

We can get it delivered.

He has sometimes kept messages for 48 hours before leaking them.

What the press people need to think about is this line.

Look, sure, Bush is up there just kind of a Texas politician going through the routine in New York, and yeah, he's doing everything they can, and he's doing this, but we all know there's no way that he can get something in this way, and we all know that...

that there's got to be some side deal between the King and the President on this thing.

And it's going to be this kind of skeptical, cynical thing.

And this just proves it.

Here it is right in the middle of the UN debate.

And it just shows that now that's the thing that's got to be overcome.

I don't think we can do it in such a way that, from a domestic political standpoint, that won't be.

too bad.

It does hurt us from a vote standpoint in the UN, and I think Henry and I both agree that we've got to set up the properties and we can, I think we can twist it around to, you know, just in consultation, to say, wait a minute, what does this mean?

You know, Peking, they've got the same problem.

I mean, if they, here's a visit from Peking.

Have you discussed the...

I have mentioned this just to give him the setting why it's so hard to change this.

He knows there's a need for Trump.

Oh, absolutely.

The Russian man.

Yes, sir.

Well, you're going to accept the Roger, you know, and let him know it's not a set-up.

If Bill tells anybody in the state of the God damn thing to leak all over there, just like a citizen, he's been good about that.

He doesn't leak.

But I think that that's really, when you get it down to it, the reason you can't change the Chinese one.

They would have been, the Chinese would have done that.

We could have shut them back up not easy enough with the Chinese.

But we did it now, right after I met Romingo.

They think Romingo came in, agreed to a Russian summit, and stuck with them.

See, that's the problem.

Now, George, as you well know, it's important as the Chinese move is, the Russian summit is infinitely more important because we're going to be talking about assault and, who knows, a hell of a lot of subjects there.

It's a very important time.

And they can come to us this time.

They want it.

That's good.

So this is a very, very important move.

We've got to go forward announcing it on the 12th.

So that will come before your vote, too.

I wonder how that's going to go.

Well, I told Henry, I thought that might clarify things.

Because the sophisticated people are, I think, will analyze it.

Well, I didn't have it that way.

Well, it seemed to me that the fact that the Russians, some of them, were announcing

It might just confuse the hell out of everybody.

Well, it will.

I mean, it's a big ameliorating factor.

Yeah, we're going to both places.

And it will help us.

I mean, it will help you.

Yeah, I think that would be a same thing.

I mean, I think that would be a help.

Well, that's what I was thinking.

Yes, sir?

That it might just say, well, they're going to have a mosque outside, too, unless they're just overflowing.

That's all I was thinking.

The idea that we're going to be there doesn't mean we're going to sink as well.

We're not going to rush to the same angle.

Exactly.

See what I mean?

Well, I understand the problem, Monique.

I can go down and say anything can work.

We're waiting out about a week to land in Massachusetts.

We'll have to sign an announcement in Massachusetts.

And the other one's a week later, exactly.

And you, it's too late if you can't get the debate started.

I was discussing, sir, with Henry as to whether there's any conceivable way that it would be to P. King's interest to not have this debate going on.

In other words, it would be a signal to go to Albany or somebody and say, look, set this damn thing back in November and then...

But they're pushing so hard now.

They're saying Peking wants it.

And they said in a statement yesterday, Peking will come the day after they're elected to the UN.

They'll be right there.

The man in Ottawa will come down.

And of course, the other thing we're fighting is just the Democrats.

They want it.

They don't need the Democrats.

That's fair, right?

They want them there.

It makes it more exciting.

And so we're getting good editorial support, even the Times, on the policy.

But the reporters are making it out in the very beginning we have.

All they've got is Chad and Nicaragua.

Never get New Zealand and Australia.

Never get Japan.

And each time when something happens, they go on to some other obstacle.

So they don't want to, I mean, we're fighting that damn thing.

The trouble is, this is Thursday afternoon.

It's Thursday.

We are contacting them.

We couldn't get to them under any conceivable circumstances now before tomorrow morning.

They can't get back to Peking before Saturday.

Although this is not dependent on it.

We could just tell them, make the announcement, and afterwards see whether they can delay the detail.

We might try that.

Do what?

We could conceivably go to Peking and ask them to cooperate with us.

It's delaying the debate, but I don't think there's a reference back there.

They might take it as a result.

They may figure that we're trying to screw them on the thing.

I mean, there's no secret about it.

They know that we're going to go for the two-track policy, and they're against it.

No, they've been acting as a node last week, complaining about it.

That's right.

They did.

Sure.

Well, so that shows we're doing a two-track policy.

I said you're doing damage to us without benefiting yourself tonight's race.

How'd that happen?

So I think sending a note to them.

I don't think, I think it's a sign of weakness.

And it just reminds me.

I think what you're arguing to do, sir, is write it through.

But the way you should handle it is to say, it's a routine announcement.

And the whole purpose is to, I play it just the other way.

Rather than this points out that we're going to be, we're just, it's.

So it was the careful preparation for this.

We're not going over there to get away the store.

History is going to America for the purpose of arranging many of the arrangements for the trip, period.

And everybody knows the trip is going to take place in Iraq.

There's been a lot of speculation.

Bill has said, you know, the old riders, he said he'd like to have the trip in December.

So suppose we were going out on a trip that was going to go in December, that I was going to go on.

That would be a really smack of a road for you.

But as you're going, see, it leaves me to spend a couple of December.

It really, the irony of it all is it's not the fact.

It's not the fact.

It's just the, it's just the, you know, bull.

You thought the Congress was all bull.

There's a lot of bull up there, too, isn't there?

Yeah, there are.

There's some good people, but gee, it's just frustrating.

You know, we've got some massive other things as well.

Well, anyway.

Anyway, I understand.

We have a, do you have any other thoughts that we can do?

We'll keep in touch with you.

I think George has got to fight like hell.

Oh, yes.

He's got to fight like hell.

He's doing it.

And be in particular in these procedural things.

Just gracefully call out the proceedings and ask for the principles involved and so forth and so on.

I think that's...

I think you're doing it well.

Remember, of course, that, yeah, that's very generous problems a little bit.

That's the one place we can make some headway on this thing.

Of course, the Chinese have already published something which says that's a ridiculous argument.

Therefore, you stay out in Memphis.

This is one thing the American people don't understand.

I mean, here's a guy that's been there.

But it's such a hell of a time for it to come out.

Well, maybe we'll find a way.

The plane is so screwy.

Maybe there'll be some Middle Eastern.

Now, maybe a thing will come up that you can say, wait a minute.

Now, let me say this.

It's so important, the Security Council, I insist that the Security Council hear this.

See, there are early on some planes.

You can't have some... Yeah, see, but you can't know that.

I don't mean to...

Sure, if we find one, and then we give it a great emphasis, what, maybe there's a way to keep them from, you know, what, changing the party.

The problem is, it's China.

It's China, the UN is here, and it's going to have to be something pretty important.

What else?

Do you have any other thoughts?

What are your questions?

Well, it's too bad.

I mean, there's no question about it in a sense.

We've got to play it out.

We've got to play it out in Georgia.

That's the point.

Mr. President, if that comes out, if that's coming out, well, won't that mean, I mean, won't that kind of be helpful?

I don't know if that means anything.

Well, of course they're going to ask you to have this ahead of time.

Because people are going to know this.

Well, people are going to know you because you couldn't have the rest of the announcement.

It's not really what it is.

That's their name.

They've got to watch it.

Well, let's see.

Okay.

I didn't make you disappointed about the rest of the thing.

You ought to make that one jealous here.

I don't think we're sending good boy out on the job today.

But try to put some man in the procedure, you know.

Screwed on anything.

You know, you're gonna become mad.

You're gonna have to apply the sense of the word here, can't you?

Yeah.

so that it doesn't look too fake.

I think you might consider saying you think about it and then let Bob or me, better Bob, call him and say you've decided to go ahead, or me, or you call him, but then either.

I think Bob can do it.

This thing was, the date came up on the 15th of August, this is

When we thought the UN board would be at the end of November.

Oh, I know, I know.

Excuse me.

That was the dilemma.

Uh-huh.

You said yesterday I should check with you about that Gromyko conversation.

He said, first, he said, we will agree to stop sending arms in the area.

Second, we will agree to remove all military units from the area.

from the UAR, all the military units.

He said, now, I want to be precise.

He said, we will keep advisors like you had in Iran, but no military units.

We will remove them all.

And third, we will agree to participate in any kind of a campaign of Israel's to take sovereignty, et cetera, et cetera, with you or anybody else.

We will agree to participate.

And then he said, we will do all this

at the time of an interim settlement, provided there is an understanding, he'd go on to a permanent monarchy or something like that.

That's a tremendous debt.

Well, it is.

And so I drew the whole thing.

When he said the last point, I think it's a significant, I drew the whole thing.

I said, well, Dr. Kissinger's decision

First, I said, we'll bring you a message that I consider of enormous importance on the Vietnam thing.

And I said, discuss it with him.

Second, let him discuss this.

And third, I said, as I told you, on European security and all these other matters, I said, let's talk about it in this channel.

And I said, so that we can work things out privately.

That's what he was talking about.

the idea of getting the damn thing out of the way before the sun is important, but also the idea that

I don't know how far you're going to go until number two.

I won't even take a shot to disclose that.

What I thought, with your permission, I would tell him, Mr. President, is that we are going through those eight points.

We are prepared to make a compromise in the political field and in the withdrawal field, but I won't tell him what it is.

that we may propose it, we will propose it to Hanoi in the near future.

We want Hanoi to think about it.

That's going to be our last offer.

And we want them to use their influence.

Well, I wrote down something last night.

Did I get it?

I knew of all the malarkey he was giving me about his desire for Brezhnev to, and it may be that Brezhnev would like, but does realize that a Soviet-American pact of friendship is very much in their interest, and also that we may need it too.

You know, not a pact, but you know, the idea we are friends and so forth.

It occurred to me that the way you would put this is that Brezhnev wants friendship, that

Look, Mr. Foreign Minister, I myself can't even predict what this President Nixon will do.

He surprises me.

But he is a man, more than anybody that's been in this office in this century, who made a daring, big play.

He made it now.

You people wonder about it.

They wonder about the economy.

They wonder about this.

He is prepared to make a very big play with you because he considers

Your situation is infinitely more important than anything else.

You know, I thought my little analogy is, when I talked about it, I said, now, we always say in these meetings that we want peace, that it's important.

I said, we want peace with Bolivia.

But whether we earn peace with Bolivia doesn't make any difference.

The President, your meeting yesterday ranked right up there with the Khrushchev meeting.

And in a way, it was more difficult because you

But you were so firm, and when he started with his malarkey, you said, all right, we say this, what else can we say here?

But let's, in effect, you said, let's get concrete.

I think when the history of this is written, it will turn out that you turned around salt yesterday, as much as you turned around Berlin.

You remember, you notice how he said to you what you said last year about Berlin, it's come true.

And I think these are going to be... At least we got through and solved the very simple point that we couldn't freeze a superiority for them on offensive weapons and an inferiority for us on defensive weapons.

And we had to look at the whole bag.

And while we were waiting for you, kept coming back to that two or three times.

that in my opinion, and also that I am the only one who can deliver on a big fly, I'm the only one who can deliver because I can hold right, that Vietnam is the only thing that stands in the way.

It will open all doors.

Now, now, just get that, and then it's time to get it over with.

Now, I think you go on, they throw the carrot out there, put the stick out there and say, now, his patience is running out on Vietnam.

It made me very embarrassed.

And I throw in a hell of a dress.

Because my view on Vietnam, the more I thought about it, is that for the end of the year, and I'm going to poll it in advance to see what it is, that I will say, all right, we'll make an announcement of some sort.

And then we, I'm assuming these bastards turn us down.

And then they say that I have the pleasure to resume the bombing.

we get the prisoners back.

That is what I would say.

Absolutely.

I would say we've offered everything.

Go through the whole record.

We've been there.

We've gone to the Russians.

We've gone to the Chinese.

We've gone every avenue.

We've offered to replace you.

Everything has been offered.

All has been rejected.

And this is it.

Yeah.

So then I think, Mr. President, we go back to the China thing for a minute.

We wanted this stuff early in this congressional session.

We wanted this early in the congressional session.

We are having a terrific double play, two successive Tuesdays.

And I think it's going to pull the teeth of a lot of opponents.

When we planned it in the middle of August,

We just couldn't know the... Look, we just got there.

Don't worry about it.

We got there.

I'll sit there with Bill and talk about it.

I'm going to talk about the Russian summit a little with him.

The Russian summit's a hell of a thing for Rogers.

Well, we don't want him, though, to start planning it.

He screws up really every...

He's not going to plan it.

I mean, it's a hell of a thing for him to do.

Oh, yeah.

Jesus Christ, I'm going to do it.

You know that.

I'll tell you what.

I decided that all these folks, I'm not going to let them do anything.

I wouldn't do it, but I swear to God, I mean it.

This boss is running the plan.

And he really doesn't understand.

I don't want to hear the detail, but he screwed up something.

I'm sure he did.

When will you see him?

I'll call you.

Oh, you'll be on the line, will you?

I'll call you when you hear the sign.

I don't have a phone.

Hey, hang here.

Yeah?

to get his report.

I'll tell you what I might do.

I might have Schultz's going down to give me a report on the domestic thing, and maybe, and then come back the next morning.

because I want to hear from you.

Absolutely.

I think it'd be better if you listened to Helen's stories.

But what do you think of my plan?

By God, if they turn down everything, we just resolve the bombing.

A better country.

I'll bet you the American people will back it to 70%.

What do you think?

I will do it.

I think you cannot go out of your mind.

Sir.

It's a dead layover.

I think being in one bring, that goddamn Teddy overstepped when he said he would crawl in it.

at the various stations to get Gromyko here the way he was yesterday, to get the Chinese.

We've got everything working together.

The only thing that's missing, I think, with this, we may do something on the Middle East.

Well, I don't understand the Middle East problem well.

I don't know whether we can, but it seems to me it's a hell of a concession.

Oh, it's a...

But the point is, the way that ought to be done, frankly, you, and that person is me, I ought to get in the ravine and say, now look here, this is a hell of a deal, and we think we can settle it.

This is what we're prepared to put to run out in Russian trouble, if you'll do something.

See my point?

Don't tell them the Russians offered it.

Tell them we will get it for them.

Come on then, George.

But we'd have to find out first what they want in return for the interim settlement.

I mean, before we get them, in order to get these Russians, let me put it this way, the Israelis at the top, they're going to be a hell of a lot tougher than the Russians.

Now, in order to get these Israelis to come somewhere, we've got to say, we've got, we mustn't let them think the Russians prepared to offer this until we get a hell of an offer from them.

No, but we have to find out from the Russians, and I can find out

about the Israelis have to go.

Oh, yeah.

On the interim settlement.

Yeah, but don't tell them.

Never tell the Israelis, but the Russians are prepared.

Oh, God.

And they'll say we'll start later.

about a housing case in Chicago and told him that we'd do everything we could.

Now, we've got to, we've got to, honestly, he also thought he showed us something.

Yes, that's right.

I told him he thought he showed us something.

We've got to, we've got to correct the decision as to whether to appeal a case, that case he talked to you about, which the federal government's involved.

There are two

Identical cases, one brought against Chicago and one brought against us, involving the same set of circumstances.

Chicago has taken their case all the way to the Supreme Court, had certiorari denied it and lost it.

Our case was held in a stipulation pending the outcome of that case.

So now we've entered a judgment against the federal government on the same ground.

Under the stipulation, we have the right to appeal.

it would probably be an idle act, and we might get some very bad law out of the circuit court.

But I didn't know how strong you'd go on with David, and whether we ought to read the text.

Do you think within the parameters of your conversation,

if we simply abided the outcome of the Chicago case without appeal.

Well, I heard something put on the technical, highly technical panel.

I just called and said we don't want to get this sealed into the law.

We don't want the court to seek out again.

And since your case has been lost, but we feel maybe we'd better not appeal it.

I want to be goddamn sure that this does not mean we accept this thing.

I understand.

I don't seem to be opposed to the policy.

That's the way it's going to be misread.

And it comes under the heading of no stone unturned.

We can go ahead and appeal that appeal to make sure that our position is very, very clear.

We don't appeal it.

They're going to figure that we have done this kind of thing.

It's subject to that interpretation.

And...

So we gotta do something public.

If we don't appeal it, we've got to do something public like we did in Blessing to make clear what our, what our position is on the dark side.

And it may be that what it ought to be is a letter to George today, which David had put out publicly, something of that kind.

That letter may be far from it.

Well, we didn't discuss anything, but this is not the department I'm talking about.

But just so you understand.

Okay.

Well, I wasn't sure just what might have been said back before.

That's the main thing that I had to do.

Let me ask you something else on the segregation thing so that these people can sing.

I don't want to do that.

I don't want to hear anything about it.

These people are all here.

It's not a very good question.

And we've only got, it says 30 minutes after that.

It's 45.

You're just going to have to lay it off and move away from there.

Tomorrow, right?

He's got a program, and he has had them in for scrubbing ahead of time.

So we turned it up and come in through the plant.

That's it.

And if something comes up about freeze or cost of living council or something like that, we're not planning to have anybody there.

But there will be somebody on the call in case you want to send for Weber to come in and talk to him about teacher service.

Which is a big hot issue in this freeze.

If you prefer to have whoever's there.

Okay.

A couple of other odds and ends.

I think we will have to cut McGregor into your secret strategy in a welfare reform.

Okay.

Because what's happening

He said that they're effectively fighting for it and kind of deals with the Senate.

And crap, undoing our good work.

So I think I have to sit him down and explain to him a little of what we're doing.

We'll explain to him what we really want is a temporary trial, a crack deal, and that's what we ought to aim for coming into this court because

budgetary and other reasons, and also because we're just not ready to implement the goddamn thing.

Why don't you put it that way and say, look, I don't want him to get the idea that we're not for welfare, I understand, we're for it, but just say, Clark, it's a hell of a mess at AGW and we're gonna just reap the whirlwind and we better have a .

That's good.

We probably will have to send a presidential letter to Judge Maloney because he's been associated pretty badly with the slippage business.

And he told the governors that he wouldn't take this up until after the first year.

And if the president proposed any tax reforms in the State of the Union, then probably that would delay it even further.

So I think we have to name it right now.

Because we are going to have some tax reforms, I think.

Well, I hope you've got a blockbuster to understand that I've got to talk with you about one piece of the Higgins plan.

You're also going to sell it to the Treasury Department.

Well, now that's a real problem because John Cotton is so damn busy.

that he just can't show up to Walker.

Well, he can't show up to meetings.

He's got everybody over there, like Eddie Collin, for instance, pulled up on this monetary thing.

And as a result, we're having, because of the shortness of time, we're having to proceed pretty much on faith.

Well, let's take a seat.

We'll get on with this.

Oh, I see.

And it is not at all critical.

I have a very sensitive view of the situation.

But I'm afraid that when we get down the road, he's liable to come in frozen.

And, well, I've got to perhaps tell him at some point that he should keep an open mind about Gil's problem and we have to go.

That would help.

Well, I haven't talked with him, but I know he's doing the best he can, but he just can't be in on all this stuff.

Now, we've done the same thing on Andy Truss.

We're beginning to move on Andy Truss changes.

And he couldn't show, and he didn't have anybody to meet.

So we settled without him, because we just don't have any choice.

The time is just too damn short.

And so there's that.

Well, he's just a black man.

And he doesn't have a lot of backup that he has confidence in.

So that's, uh, that's our difficulty.

Well, that's, that's all I need to know.

Well, we'll, uh, I don't want to bother him with the right of this attorney because he's so busy.

He's got to see him in the monetary all week.

He's got to be in phase two this weekend.

And then, uh, then he's got to get, uh, I've got to keep this sort of ready and together.

The problem is, when you count the number of days, we're less than 90 days.

How come?

From having this thing on our table.

I don't know.

He just played a sly game.

But what do you mean?

A letter of Christ we said in the speech.

Is there anything else that Christ is going to give you now?

My thought is to write a letter and just say, from a speech that you made in California the other day, I gather that you do not clearly understand my position.

How important that you do.

Here it is.

We want it.

We want it to pass quickly.

We want the effective date to be the 1st of January.

Yours truly.

And we'll put that in the hands of all the public interest groups, the states, the counties, the cities, and everybody, and just broadcast that all over the place.

and his work are kind of on a stop line.

Now, what he's really done, you see, is booked himself up for six weeks of speeches.

He won't even be in this town for six weeks.

Who?

Mills.

Yeah.

Hang around with this president.

Yeah, sure.

That's what they're all doing.

You know, they're a whole bunch of... You know, the interesting thing on the hard and positive side is that

Real shock.

The, uh...

I think they're feeling, when I saw number one, I also feel the pressure that it would take a lot of time

if the ABM said, I know that's why they vote against it.

They've been voting against ABM before.

They would have taken, they would have had to postpone it, and they would have had to spend time in debate, and they would have had to make a major standout.

I suspect, I haven't talked on the record about this, I'm just guessing.

And they're beginning to feel a pinch a little bit in terms of how work they've produced and how far behind they are.

And they see this report.

All that I understand, though, not having to debate it

but what I didn't understand is that they divided 45 people against ADM last year and 21 this year.

I don't know why the hell they think that, but they must think we're not.

Well, this education thing, you just sit and listen.

I don't think you need to say 10 words, the whole thing.

Well, I think it just all does it.

And Marlin, Marlin will carry the load.