Conversation 581-004

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Good morning, Mr. President.

Hi.

How are you, John?

Good.

What do you want to do?

Well, I'm going to go to the court.

The usual problems that make tomorrow the best meeting is called operas.

It's very obvious what means does.

with the civil rights draft so he can practice discrimination in his union.

That's the whole basis for that.

Well, how's this going?

Well, Chris, well, let me run through the current situation.

Some of the players, because of the

pressures that have been building up on POP with the civil rights people and so forth, it became very obvious that we didn't want to get mousetrapped by sending somebody else up with them, where we might lose POP and get the other one, an appropriate payer operation.

We have POP now before the ABA committee, and they will meet on Saturday, and we'll get a report on it.

Is that a new issue, of course, occurred?

No, the House people have been coming through a great style.

They've got a letter down here of liberals and conservatives yesterday who attacked and came out and said something against you.

I think that that isn't bad, the fact that we've got liberals in the House supporting you.

Yeah, even Mathias is, from all accounts, is around building a potluck.

But of course, you know, better not even lose Mathias overnight.

There are three basic problems with Poff.

The Civil Rights Manifesto and his position on that, although everybody recognizes that Poff has talked on the state's rights basis on the civil rights legislation.

He has not talked race at all.

Oh, yeah, I knew that.

Well, I'm talking about the factors that are part of this agreement.

The point is, we know, John, that in the case of politics, it's a decent Southerner.

You get what any damn Southerner should do.

I don't have that argument brought up.

I'd rather have to be defeated on it.

I decided to top that manifesto today.

I think I would, if I had an opportunity, add the same.

And Bill, Pop has also introduced a bill over the period of years prescribing qualifications for the Supreme Court.

Of course, he doesn't meet those qualifications.

And one other factor that is involved here after rather an exhaustive review is that he

like all the other congressmen, had his name in a law firm and got money out of it without participating in the practice.

But when the American Bar came through with a ruling to the effect that this was unethical, he outed the fund.

As a matter of fact, he did it before it was adopted in Virginia.

So he had that operation.

The...

As far as, well, he's had an affair with a secretary, but that's not going to pop up, I don't believe, because she's back with her husband, and Pop's wife knows about it, and this was 15 years ago.

I don't think there's a problem there.

The question will come up, obviously, about his practice of law, of which he's had so little.

We have filed with the committee a 10-page brief on the subject matter, which covers the writings of Frankfurter and so forth, in which they say that this is not a requisite for the Supreme Court.

And also, of course, we have documented Pop's active participation in the Judiciary Committee, what he has done.

And it's quite an impressive record.

So in what way do you practice law?

It was about seven years ago.

And he did practice some law while he was in Congress.

He tried a few cases and things like that.

I agree.

That's exactly right.

And that is exactly the point that's made.

They certainly do not run out.

No, thank you.

Because we've been beating up on them, and of course other people have too.

Let me say, let me give you my theory of the plot, if I can, because it may help your company.

I've been thinking a lot about it.

And I see these groups lining up.

I know you're concerned, and I'm concerned you might be able to prove it.

But I now think that we ought to stand positive, and so

And if these bastards turn him down, then a decent Southerner for this job on, again, some factual scrawl from the President, then by God, that's it.

I mean, I think we've got an issue that we, the Higginsburg and Carzo one, we wondered about the defeat for the President and the rest of them.

We can just say it's hard for you, you can't get a Southerner in there.

I just, I'm just not gonna, I think that the, this whole civil rights thing that people are fed up with, they're fed up with the God damn, you know, these people like me.

He's a hypocrite.

These God damn senators are hypocrites, John.

And I just feel that we ought to take, fight the bullet from the Senate down there.

Fight it.

We lose the power.

We have a double-edged problem and probably a double-edged sword because the Congress will raise hell.

If the bar doesn't approve him, then he's not Senate.

The House?

You bet your life.

There's a lot of people in the Senate.

Well, sure, sure.

But also, John, let's face it, we also have a public servant that doesn't have a certain kind of security.

Let's face it.

He is the Southern nominee, isn't he?

That's right.

He's the Southern candidate.

And we've got that.

John Alden is in here pushing.

Yep.

He said, yes, sir.

And I said, sir, and we, and instead of what you've got to tell John, I said, I want them to really race.

Go, go, go all out with this man.

Well, you ought to enlist the Southern Matthews.

They've never been enlisted.

And just say the president is in here.

That might mean they hate me.

There you go.

The likelihood is that we will have support from outside of the Senate.

I don't think you're going to have more than 40 votes against him.

I think it will be 35.

That's just my guess, based on the talk with Scott.

He's the only count of 36 votes against him, or 37.

I think that's where we come up.

Well, I think what we ought to do, Mr. President, is to see how the ABA comes out on Saturday and then get the hardest count we can get to make a judgment factor on.

Well, could we get it to come, even have it start now?

Sure.

I think it's going right now, because I had to get that name up there Monday.

There are other reasons that I'd like to.

We've got another announcement coming Tuesday.

I'd like to nominate the news next week with at least one announcement, one of these, maybe two.

Well, you could on him, at least.

We can on him, yes.

And I think we ought to fight this battle.

and come with the relatives now.

All right.

Would you be disposed to send them up if the bar is disproven?

Oh, hell yes.

By all means, I decide.

OK.

But I'm not going to wait for the bar.

The fight is, the fight is...

I'd be very glad to have the bar, but if the bar is disproven, I then send them up.

I'll say I'm very interested in having the bars used, but I disagree with it.

Do you think that poses a problem?

That'll be the issue.

And that's where some of our troops will use as an excuse to get out.

We have told them in no uncertain terms that this is probably the parting of the ways with the whole operation if they don't act responsibly.

Walsh is trying to do it.

There's no question about it, because he wants to... God, I hate the Department of the American Party.

It looks like they're... Jesus Christ.

Well, now... Maybe they'll be all right, though.

Maybe if we want something to come true.

It may be.

Now, we have to also look at the context of it.

This is purely an off-the-record confidential assessment.

And what will come about, of course, will be...

No public statements whether he's qualified, disqualified, otherwise.

But they will, of course, as they do in all these judges, appear and testify before the Judiciary Committee.

And that's where you get it later down the line.

So that this is a factor as to how long you can hold your troops if the American Bar goes up and testifies that he's not qualified because of life practice law.

It's a court case in the Senate.

except insofar as he had an excuse to get away from it.

That's the problem.

However, the way we would make that case is to take it on the front lines and say that the American bar has an obsolete deal, and say, what about Frankfort?

Under this rule, he would never have been through the bar relationship.

And you can go down, there's a list.

Frankfort, I think, is secure.

About Blackney, Frankfort's law.

He was a prosecutor for a short period of time and a local police court judge.

All right.

We can say that he could never have qualified for the Supreme Court.

No question about it.

So let's go.

I'm just convinced we've got to go to the bottom now.

All right, sir.

Could we do it Monday then?

We can do it any time you want, Mr. President, but I think that... Wednesday?

I think Wednesday would be better because it would give us more time for a state account.

Now, do you feel that it's possible to get commitments in advance of this vote?

Can Scott go and get commitments?

Scott Griffin arrested, and I think the whole issue is...

I think you should say that the President leans very strongly on this call.

And we have heard a lot of sending him to the meet, right?

And we want to know if you get us a commitment so we can get the name up there.

Why don't you just put it that way?

It's still important to have a man on that court soon.

We should do that.

Yes, sir.

And ask all these topics, and each one of them can call John and follow up on any names you can get and so forth, and let's just get a list.

Will they vote for Tom?

And make a hard commitment so we know what's going on.

His record is totally blank.

All right, sir.

We'll fight that way unless something explodes in the meantime.

Your troops around here get very concerned, you know, about another fight.

mcgregor john ellickman and all the rest of it uh no i i think it's uh not quite mcgregor but i think what they're uh as john mentioned you're gonna have enough problems with your tax bills and so forth and you don't need another other

any judge we send up there who isn't a goddamn liberal will be bought.

John has got to realize that it has nothing to do with the pot.

It has to do with the fact that he's a conservative.

I believe that.

I just, I will not send a goddamn liberal up to that court.

I quite agree with you.

Okay.

Now, let's talk about the women for a moment.

There are just two women who could fit into this category.

that would fit in your philosophy.

And I'm a little doubtful about one of them because we don't have all of the record in it.

The one that obviously, because she's been on the court for so many years and has expressed her philosophy, is Judge Lilly from California.

She was on the Superior Court out there.

She's now on the Intermediate Court of Appeals.

Uh, she's 55 years old.

Uh, she, um, is solidly backed by Reagan, the prosecutors.

Yorty?

Uh, Yorty, et cetera, et cetera.

Are you a Democrat, too?

No.

Huh?

I don't believe she is a Democrat.

That doesn't make any difference, but I, I think she is.

Is she?

She's, she's one of those, Mrs. Johnson serving down the rest of Chicago, California.

Chiefs in the Court of Appeals of the State.

That's it.

And 55.

And well recommended by all of the police officers.

Yeah.

I appreciate it.

Is there to be a good judge?

Yes.

So far as you can tell, on that level, because you know, at that level, your problem is disposing of the cases, not writing long theoretical opinions.

And the other one, of course, is Sylvia Bacon, who's got a pretty solid record.

Tell me about Sylvia Bacon in terms of both of them, because now that it's confirmed.

How did Lily do in law school?

What kind of a law school did she go to?

I don't know what kind of record she had, but she was a good student.

Yeah, she had a good record in law school.

Sylvia Bacon had a, well, she went to Vassar, and then she went to the London School of Economics, and then she went to Harvard.

Her record in Harvard was not too good.

I don't know what the circumstance is.

Then she came out and she got a Master of Laws degree here at Georgetown University, so she had a

good, solid, long educational track record.

That's an awfully good record.

That's a good track record.

Yes.

Let me give her some breath.

She's not in the criminal field, and of course... You're sure?

I'm sure she's not in the criminal field, but I don't know what... You can't guarantee what might come out of anybody.

Her father's a newspaper publisher from the Dakotas.

She's conservative, Republican.

She's Republican?

Yeah, yes.

How old is she now?

Forty.

She just turned 40 in July.

Who worked with her in the department?

Did you work with her?

Did you have a chance to see her work with her?

I have been in conferences with her.

Why is she there?

Good.

She's a...

Yeah, very much so.

And the type she dedicated her life, she's been on the, through the law so far.

She's been on the board of law examiners here, and all these commissions, and she's got a long, long list.

She actually, Lily is basically the better one.

Right.

Frankly, she's older.

And she's served in court 15 years.

Yes.

Everybody's going to be there until Sunday.

And it'll always be a woman's seat from then on.

15 years is about as long as she's going to be there.

Hmm, you must.

Well, Tucker was in his thirties.

And I guess Potter Stewart also.

Yes, didn't he?

What he's doing with it, maybe that makes it work pretty good.

Yeah.

So do you think you've ever met Milford Lillard any chance?

No, I haven't.

I haven't.

Because you know what?

If you haven't made any trades on her.

No, we haven't, of course, serviced her.

It's all been a check with the people out there.

Is she highly regarded?

She can't be highly regarded because she is a conservative and, of course, is in this intermediate court.

Yeah.

uh in other words you just don't get it yes it's like the appellate division of new york one other thought in here mr president i would believe that if you didn't go with a woman realizing you're going to have to have a southerner no matter how far you have to battle it you've got to have somebody from the south there

Uh, that your friend, your friend Smith is from California would probably be the ideal choice, as in the second man on that appointment to the committee.

Yeah.

You're right about that.

Just very impressive, very impressive records.

No, I thought it might be, but I don't know.

Just keep your eyes on that.

You see what a, what a, what a well, well done.

We don't have to, we don't have to.

And he had to kill Pop at the bar turned down at University of California's Harvard Law School.

I did kill him.

I'm certain he got a hell of a record.

Yeah, he's a well-rounded fellow, and everybody that knows him that I've talked to says that he is a real, solid,

I would recommend this.

argument that california hasn't had a judge on that court for ages it's the largest state in the union that should be represented and of course if they complain about the new york that's another reason yes if uh if you feel to go the woman

I've mixed emotions.

I know.

Let me tell you, so that we have a total understanding of this.

I don't think a woman should be in any goddamn job you've ever been in front of with you.

I mean, I really don't.

I mean, that's my attitude, mainly because they are erratic and emotional.

Men are erratic and emotional, too.

But the point is, a woman is more likely to be

The second problem we've got is that in terms of the court, I know that that's like living with somebody inside a spaceship.

That poor burger will have to go through.

But on the other hand, so from the standpoint of that, I just said we shouldn't have a woman.

There should never have been a woman there, but they can.

I mean, people can't swear when they want to or, you know, get drunk.

I'll be the hobbyist here.

Now, let's come back to the woman here.

In a political sense, John, it comes right down to cold turkey.

If you were to poll the country, 70% of the people would say, no, they don't want to vote for the Supreme Court.

I'm sure.

However, if you were to poll the country and say there's a president or vice president who would vote against you for that reason, it would be zero.

On the other hand, if a woman were appointed, it could affect 1% or 2%.

who would say, because you appointed a woman, I am for it.

Now, it's as cool as that.

It's a proposition that it would answer once and for all.

It's still the argument that's lived in everybody else.

Do we care about women?

My God, we put the woman on the Supreme Court.

There's another argument for it, and I'm kind of suspicious of what it is.

With all this talk, whatever you and I think about the women and what Berger thinks, we all think alike, believe me.

Women's liberty is here.

It is a growing thing.

It is a step down.

And the demand for this is there.

And the woman's viewpoint probably ought to be on the court.

Probably ought to be on the court.

It isn't a man's world anymore, unfortunately.

It should be.

I mean, I think that's true.

Those are my enemies.

So I lean to a woman only because, frankly, I think at this time, John, we've got to pick up every half a percentage point we can.

So there's that.

I hate to do it.

When you and I played golf, I was clear off.

But I got to be on the thing whenever we can.

Oh, Christ.

We've got to take a look.

Why is she concerned?

No, I choose liberal help.

I wouldn't appoint any liberalism.

No, I think this woman will qualify.

Lily?

Lily.

Would you rate her or Bacon?

I would for this reason, Mr. President.

Bacon is young, and she's an unknown in the civil rights field.

What do you think Lily is going to do?

I, from what readings we've had to date, she's just conservative, period.

All across the board, now.

If, uh...

If one thing about the woman, conservative, these bastards can't vote against her.

I would believe not.

I don't think... No, because they're all up there screaming, putting you on the spot.

thinking that you won't do it, and that they're all out for it, the Bys and the Kennedys.

Let me ask you to do this.

Take a run at first.

There's no reason we can't have two from California.

I mean, look, I already know about two, two yards from California.

We've got two from Minnesota.

In my view, in my view, in Harlem, we're not getting it.

If we could get another seat, other than the black seat, I mean, just to make sense, it would be a hell of a point.

I just had to get back, because that's the kind of a guy that is, you know, that frankly is in the league with Berger.

I mean, he's a real student of the law, right?

He is, Jim.

And he's a guy, I read her a point, but who has told you about her?

Is it Ray?

Ray, younger.

What younger did her?

I think she's just

hardest nails on the criminal law.

Well, not in the criminal law.

He called me Sunday morning after a lot of these names got out.

And, of course, they were almost jumping out of the wall when they heard about Huffstetter, but, you know, that lefty Democrat whose name has been so prominent.

With respect to Mildred Lilly, she has, according to all of the people that have been checked, including the

district attorney's office out there and the U.S. attorney's office and so forth.

It's just as solid as can be in the criminal law.

And according to the opinions that our people have read, Bill Lindquist, who's very conservative, says that her philosophy is the same as yours.

We've checked through some of the judges that sat with her in the different courts out there who are now

one of them on the Ninth Circuit of conservative judges.

They say that her philosophy is conservative.

Where does she go to school?

We don't know if she's a Cal.

I'm not certain.

I don't have a hearing of Mr. President.

Very much so.

That's good.

If it's a woman, then he's very strong.

All right.

Let's run her by.

I think the bacon one is a little too soon.

Is that your honor?

I think she's a better point, frankly, because I think she's got a better...

She's more in tune with national politics, basically.

I believe so, and she's probably had a wider exposure to Washington and legislation and so forth.

But isn't she just a little deranged?

I think that this would be the criticism that... No, you're good.

All the time.

She's been a judge longer than I can remember.

She started on the...

Well, she's been on the District Court of Appeals since 58, and she sat in the Supreme Court for quite a number of years before that.

The District Court of Appeals since 58?

Since 58.

My God, just think of it.

That's 13 years.

All right.

We go with her.

Now, let me tell you this.

How about it?

All of a sudden, her name first.

Well, uh... You know, I just think that maybe that'll help with the conflict.

Did I get my point?

It might.

It might, but on the other hand, we might get her through, and then they really gang up on Pop.

I think that...

Pop should go first.

I think so.

I think otherwise we're going to get mousetrapped.

Sure.

We'll try to get Pop unless he can't.

Wednesday or Thursday, we'll wait and see if we can't.

Wednesday or Thursday, could we do that next week?

I believe there's no reason why we can't, because the only thing that'll be left will be for us to get a reading of the Senate.

We know that we don't have to run.

We've heard central.

But I think you want to...

I think we should take a look a little bit.

That's the one.

All right.

You don't think they're good buyers of wool?

Well, it's 15 years, as you point out.

And I think that a woman with a track record like this has more credibility rather than the gimmicky business of a woman.

Too young.

I mean, if somebody is a young flipper, basically some people, women, a woman of 39 is flippant.

Well, that's not true.

women of 70 or something, sometimes.

Personnel, entirely.

55, I think, is a good age.

I thought, well, the other is much older than that, but it's because that's a pretty good age, pretty good age.

And she'll say, well, 20 years, actually.

Nobody's going to retire at 75 anyway.

Not if they're in health.

Sure.

And they're pretty middle 75.

Yes, that's right, yeah.

I say, I see some, I see a ball like John McCallum.

Goddamn, he stays in there forever.

I think he's going to run again.

Sure.

I'm sure.

I sure do.

He's the status supporter we've got up there.

I hope your people were able to accommodate him on this problem he's got with cable television.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

It's a can of worms.

You know, what I did at Johnson.

That works fine with cable television.

There's huge resources involved and so forth.

But I told him that we weren't trying to decide on that thing.

We were just beating the young car, which is what he wanted.

Yeah.

He just didn't want you to block the legislation that he's been working so hard to compromise.

He's trying to work that.

John McClellan is a fine individual.

They hope that.

I mean, they won't decide after he can't get a woman.

Oh, yes.

Yes, they will.

John, it's the right thing to do, though, I must say.

Don't tell anybody, but it's the right thing to do.

It's the time.

The time has come.

And if they don't get it, they don't pay for it.

A surrogate woman in California.

God, I can't ever kill her.

I'm glad you recognize this woman prophet coming up in the election because it's going to be monumental.

This whole administration has got to watch what they say and so forth.

Look at the plaque.

It just came out of the fact that Zeke would have referred to 12 men under consideration.

Jesus just exploded.

But you see, John, on the moment that we sent a woman to that court, we've been called chimpanzees, and we've done it.

You know what I mean?

Because we named one.

Don't you agree?

Absolutely.

This is a cancer forever.

Absolutely, but you know that...

Exactly.

I know in structuring the political apparatus, the women don't want to have women organizations anymore.

They want to be part of the total mix.

Is that right?

Oh, yes.

All over.

All right.

And this is probably where it should be.

I'm letting them go out and run their corporate branches in suburbia.

Well, there is this woman saying, as I told you, I'm not.

You take somebody as reasonable as Julie, and she would have never been.

My two kids are mostly sitting on their bus in service.

They can be a Christian person, terribly concerned with Julie and so on.

But they say that while they do not agree with it, that among younger girls,

But at their age, this damn woman's thing has really caught on.

That's what they tell me.

They don't really understand, but they say it's there.

And my wife, it's the same thing.

You know, she's a woman's lip-sync, but she says it's a crusader drumming on her all the time.

So you say, let's recognize.

And I think you've got to have a talk with her.

And I want Berger, however, he's got to be outgoing about it.

He will, I'm sure.

I know the problem.

But it's time to come, John.

And under Berger, who better still to find a way?

I think this Lilly thing could be a hell of a plan.

Warren Berger's a good soldier.

Have you ever talked to him about that?

No.

Don't go over the top.

No, I haven't.

But I'll look forward to it.

Douglas made an interesting remark.

He said you could put seven on there as long as he had one man to talk to.

If they were young enough.

I wonder if there would be any point in putting Bacon and Lilly, both of them, before the bar.

Good.

and incidentally would you do that very soon uh yes i'd like to uh i'd like to check out the building further uh with people who yeah uh well now you're gonna find you're gonna find she has a lot of opponent enemies out there because of her being considering don't let that knock you off and i'm sure they said don't check her about patch and i'm sure bob

probably his liberal antenna would come up and let him in the other hand.

That's why I'm for her.

I know, I know we are his all out for her.

Of course, that probably tells you something about where she is in the Negro section.

I would believe so.

But people say she's a hell of a conservative.

They have all said so.

I just didn't realize that she had any credentials of being a judge because she's been on the bench and it's true.

I mean, the appeals court for 13 years does say hell of a credential.

Yeah.

Yes, it's not the highest court in the state, but it's an appeals court and it gives her a longer period of service as a judge than probably anybody else except Sarah Hughes.

And of course she's 69 or something.

Well, don't, as I say, don't, don't listen to the arguments and set up a vote, but, uh, I like the Lillian River.

I like the Californians.

I'll tell you that.

They need to be proud out there.

Yeah, I agree that they would be.

California needs an appointment.

It does, because it hasn't had representation.

You know, they have me, but they don't really think.

They think the president belongs to everyone else.

I thought they needed an appointment.

Tom Redden, for instance, wrote me a long letter about her.

He says that he and his wife have known Judge Lilly and her husband for X, Y, X years, that they're just great people, that she's conservative, she's got judicial temperament, and all the rest of it.

I've anticipated this for some time.

Well, believe me, you know how I feel.

But we've been doing what's right so much, Josh, and we've got to do what's political.

And it is right, in the sense that we've mentioned here, isn't it?

I believe so.

In the sense that it's mentioned.

It's got to come.

It's got to recognize it.

It's just that innate feeling that you have that...

that, as you say, putting that gal up there with those other judges and going through what they will have to go through is going to be a dramatic experiment.

But hell, let somebody else take the heat for a while.

Some of these meetings are just unbelievable.

I know the population.

And I hold the bar against you.

It will be tough if they come out against you, won't it?

I think if they come out against them, we've got to have a hard camp.

Yeah.

Because if we don't... And we've got to tell the boys at the bars against them, and then say we have to hold the bar against them.

That's absolutely correct.

Do we have any other senator?

Right?

Uh...

Well, we have some alternatives, Mr. President.

It depends on how long we want to carry on this fight with the South.

Thanks, Lou.

No.

We could get Lewis Powell confirmed in a minute.

Why not?

He's a good 64, but we could get him confirmed in a minute.

They couldn't possibly go against him.

And he's got the same...

or we could uh or we could go to herschel and uh let them take it on again they can't you know forever and i know that's the part where

Or we could submit both of them to the bar and see how they came out.

I'll let you talk about the mess on top.

Yep.

Because a lot of steam has been built up on top.

Yes, it gets to the...

It gets to the basic question as to...

The overall picture as to how much of this battle we want to do for what reason, frankly, I think we've changed the battle from the Southerners to the Congress now.

We've got the Congress as our battleground.

And certainly there's a track record as far as putting up Southern judges and getting them knocked down.

You don't need much more of that.

I just want to make sure that Bob doesn't get mixed up.

I'm going to California this afternoon.

He was going, and now I hear he's not.

But I hope he's going to be out of here, because what I plan to... Do you want him out there?

Yeah.

Do you want him to go?

I want him for this reason.

Reagan has called a meeting of all of the Reineke's and Monahans and all the rest of them.

I want to get all of them in that room and find out whether they were going to support the President's election in 72 and, of course, the Antelope.

He asked when the next step is that

If they don't stop their bickering and campaigning, et cetera, et cetera, we just lower the boom on them.

I've got this program with Ron, and I'm going to meet with Ron Reagan and talk to him about that ambassadorship that's supporting him.

Is it not a cut game of Notre Dame?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, yes, I'm sure.

Okay.

Mm.

That'd be his recommendation.

That's right.

Now, you see that cranch and the tonic are probably closer.

That's all right.

Well, listen.

That's very good.

Sit down.

I'll be right back.

I say they're screwing around with my schedule again.

Why is that?

Probably because of the verification panel a bit.

Why?

Because we've got some soft talks to do.

portion reductions.

Well, even if it gets down to the amount of digits and momentum and the changes of players out there, the money apparently is going to be offered to the University of the Pacific Presidency.

Oh, really?

It wouldn't be available.

It wouldn't be available, and I won't know until today or tomorrow.

But they're scoring back on that, which would be a problem.

I don't know where we'd go in that legislature to get a backup guy.

I'm supposed to.

He would just give up a seat.

Which is this University of Mississippi?

Good private school, huh?

You know, William French knows very well.

What's the president been talking about all these years?

He's a good lawyer, I think.

Yeah, he's got a resume, you know, that looks like, for his age, like it's a piece of cake.

Are you going to be hitting the clock?

I wanted to say that I think the way John's got it, it's good.

Getting everybody in a row and getting the players around there to quit campaigning and start supporting the team.

But you're going to have to, you're going to program right before you... Oh, Ron, Ron's in complete accord.

I think he's a reporter, what I know.

Sure.

And that's going to be this weekend, isn't it?

Yeah, that's going to be tomorrow.

The only other question I've raised on the hang committee, John, do you think, is it, is it, is it a strong feeling on the part of the governor or would it be if they want to announce that committee, the delegate selection committee?

that should.

Because there's no sense everybody knows the goddamn things in existence.

And make sure, again, that there's absolute understanding and commitment that there will be nobody on that delegation that isn't proved back here.

Well, I'll do a consultation with Bob and people that know the

They don't want it because of the prestige and so forth but

But we also have an understanding that the delegation is going to be used to pull together the next organization out there from a whole spectrum.

Particularly the finance guys.

I think it's important that whoever we have is in the post committee and the expenses of that, whoever is on the sidelines of the finance generally, they're on straight through because what you're assessing these guys for relates directly to your campaign finance.

Whether it's DART or

However, whoever decides that it should be, should have a separate operation financially for the delegation that is unrelated totally to the campaign for Madison.

No, I quite agree with you because they should meld right in together.

That's the whole purpose of the delegation.

And also, I'm glad to hear that the governor and everybody out there is thinking of, look,

You can't have a California delegation like they had in 68 where they all looked like they were 99 years old.

Present company accepted it.

Let's have a few young people talk.

Let's say I understand.

Right.

Yeah, sure.

New Mexicans, yeah.

We did get a lot of credit when we got appointed that Mexican woman.

Particularly with that Sanchez story and not being mad at me.

And Sanchez, where's the word you want to put that in?

Well, Mexican.

Are they going to get the word?

It's all over.

And the top of the Mexican woman, she got out and talked to us a little bit.

Well, she's a shy person, but I know.

But, you know, the problem we have now, we just haven't.

Well, let's also stay with the Cubans, too.

The Cubans are smart, too.

If you could put them in, the Puerto Ricans would come as well.

except for Puerto Rico.

Well, they're led like a lot of sheep.

Of course, we can...

But this woman is a very nice woman.

I think that's a... She's got a Mexican name and a Mexican accent.

I thought she was great.

We've got Ferrero lined up.

He'll take care of our Puerto Rican.

She's going to come up and campaign all over the place.

Louie?

Yeah?

Well, of course, Harrison.

That's why I say it's smart that you've gone there.

But, Bob, one thing I want to talk to you about.

You know, Bob, it was your trip.

Did you know about the plane?

I have mine.

You're going to trip to Latin America.

Do you want me out of here, Mr. President?

No, no, no.

Listen, just a second.

I've been trying to think of some way to have a, at this particular time, to have a sort of a hand-related thing in Latin America.

You know, I can't go because of the possible, for several reasons.

One, I don't have the time.

Two, the possibility of demonstrations is too goddamn dangerous.

On the other hand, the rock and roll mission, I was way behind this, and for all kinds, too broad a journey, and got us all committed to a lot of those.

I talked to Roger Scott.

to be a very good idea if you took about a month's trip.

And what I had in mind was to make it sort of like my 58 trip, for example, down to the rocks.

And I would go to major countries.

I just think I'd go to Brazil, I'd go to Argentina, I'd go to, actually, I don't think you should go to Chile, but I had a very good ride.

Eric, Bill is prepared to give you a recommendation, but I didn't recommend it.

But then without telling Bill, check the names of Kissinger.

Because they're not together.

But then, if you don't mind,

I would say that I think if you could work through speaking things out, and I think this would be a good thing to cancel, you could go out on the wave, we'll build it up, I think we could build it up that you would come in and meet with Rogers and me, we'd have a picture taken, we'd have you meet the ambassadors before you go, head of the Tennessee briefings and so forth.

My view is too that you probably ought to do Mexico

But I will not do Central America.

Be arrogant to that bag, you're no problem.

But not in Central America.

I do Venezuela, Colombia, Cabo in Peru because of the loss.

So I certainly...

Brazil and Argentina, don't worry about whether they're dictators or not, because there are a lot of friends who've gone to dictators.

And then maybe some others.

The problem you have is that, and it may be that you should do them all.

You've got 20 countries in the next one.

You see the problem?

The problem is if you do all the countries of South America,

You know, I have skipped everything in the Caribbean.

I think we've just got to start with that, because I've already got Barbados and all those, and they don't matter.

I forget all the countries, the major countries in South America.

See, what matters to us, I heard that Mauritius is on Brazil, for example, and I was on Bolivia, see?

Brazil's the country that matters.

Now, what I had in mind there, too, is that if you would go, not as long as the

You would not want to make a big press while you were there, because you're not going to want to.

I mean, I don't want any press in the country that had to come back here to come back.

On the other hand, what you would gather as a result of this is just an incomparable story, so to speak.

It's a hell of a time to go through a speeding.

And I would take a long, you could talk to Bill about it, but you should take a long, very sharp safety guard to follow him and speak Spanish.

To do both, to work with him.

I would not let a driver take a long doctor.

He has legs there and I don't think he'd go up.

No, let me tell you, I have a long carousel of a couple of people that I've heard from out there.

It's a very thin staff.

very thin, thin group, because, so that you were the center of the thing, rather than having other people jackassin' around.

And, in other words, you're going as the president's

counselor to meet with our friends in Latin America to get their views about what we ought to do.

And then when we come back the last time, maybe we should do something for them in search of our student grant.

And I think it would be quite an achievement.

Like on that one, over the Christ Secretary that's on for Greece, or probably is there, if we are able to then re-govern, we'll do something about their loosened up rules so it proves he did this on my behalf.

This trip is an important one.

I don't know, I think it gives you something that will be very useful to you.

Because the main purpose that I see for you in the campaign, and the same is true of Rumsfeld, and I spoke to John about Rumsfeld.

speak around the country.

And not just in California.

And he could just be in Illinois.

In fact, in Landy Market, around the country, in the colleges, among youth groups.

They can get across from the suburban area that not many of our people can't get across to.

And so I did the credit on us.

The credit may give you a

Frankly, I started to stop so that it doesn't appear that we're just around here.

You know, everybody, you know what, you're going to work.

But I think the trip can be a hell of a time for it.

And I thought that possibly you're going to Africa, but God damn, there's no hopes there.

I'll tell you that.

I'm going to Liberia, Mr. President, and I don't care where everybody is.

Now, the real question is, I think, you and Bill have discussed this, but I'm going to move on to price, which would apply naturally.

My guess is that the best out on a plane is to use, because you can get around, is probably to use the jet star, you see, because if that was big enough.

If, on the other hand, you had to go bigger, then you got to, you'd get up into the next, the medium size, you got that.

I've heard news about the conveyor.

It's just slow as hell.

If you go out to the big plane, the present-action plane, it's a problem.

Due to the fact that then you've got a little press in there, it doesn't, you know, sound now.

But these are things that you should talk to Bill about, Bill Rogers.

But you know what the purpose is.

He's all prepared to make some recommendations.

You know Charlie Myers?

Yes.

I've got to go.

He's not a fellow.

He couldn't be helpful to you.

Do you like that idea?

I do, sir.

I've got to get on with it.

But Rogers is all set.

I mean, he doesn't have names, but he's right in the country.

But he's all set, too.

I'll start with Rogers' list, and then we'll see how we play it out.

And you can also talk to Bill and Dennis, and then quiet.

It's okay, because every old one of them.

But let this be on Roger's show.

Roger's mind.

That's right.