On October 5, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Tun Abdul Razak, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., White House operator, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:33 pm to 5:12 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 585-008 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Mr. President.
Mr. President.
How are you, Mr. Prime Minister?
Very well.
Well, good to see you again.
Why don't we come over here, Mr. Prime Minister?
Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you for the United States picture.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you, Mr. President.
It's quite tiring to come all the way around the world.
That's right.
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This is the favorite spot of one of the soldiers in the Vietnam War.
Is that right?
Yes.
It's quite different from the rest of the great cities.
Well, it's so unspoiled.
Well, it was unspoiled in a sense.
You've got a fine industrial park there.
I visited that.
Yes.
And, you know, it's just booming them all.
But you still have, I mentioned the railroad station, which has the feeling of going back a hundred years and all that sort of thing.
Yes.
It must have never been a copycat.
That's how we are designed.
I don't think the science would.
Well, we want you to know that we're really interested in the future of your country.
You're there right at the eye of the hurricane between great powers.
You survived.
I know some of the internal problems and the rest, but our whole policy is to be helpful without hurt.
And I understand, too, the position that you take, which seems to me very solid, that you take a position which is basically to avoid staying too involved in the...
on one side or the other, except for the person who was talking about that.
Yes, no, we felt that, you know, because if you don't have doctorate, and we know that you can't stay there all the time, and that we must be self-reliant on ourselves.
Sure.
There was a time when I took over the job, and there was a time that we were due on a policy,
and put up the proposal of a new charity of Southeast Asia.
And we felt it is the only way in which we can ensure this region.
The charity is the present and doesn't mean that we're going to be neutral in everything.
It means that we would like that area to be declared a zone of peace.
So that big power should not have a new universe, but we should develop those to build our way of life and to develop our country.
That's me.
We don't need to get up yet now.
We'll be ready now.
It's your responsibility.
But Cambodia, we tried, you know, to have the salt.
Cambodia, you remember, to come to a conference.
And nobody asked me to help.
And we tried our best.
But we couldn't get Russia to move, you see.
So we've got to, unless we can get big powers to keep up.
Or a treaty to control it.
Yes.
Well, if you can avoid, of course me, you have a big paper to the north.
You have the problem of getting caught in a vice there.
We, of course, have tea.
I have tea.
The coffee's better.
It's very good coffee.
But what we call, what makes a doctor many times is not understood by the nation.
The United States is saying, after yourselves.
What we are saying, in fact, is that we're not doing that.
and to help people, that they understand their own responsibilities.
And also, we think that it's very important.
Well, take our friends in Indonesia.
They need enough military strength to control a thousand miles of islands.
Otherwise, they're going to be like that and have control of this.
And the other half of Indonesia will be out of its mind and become involved in a great power conflict.
I don't think that's a problem.
It's true of your country.
It's true of, frankly, Vietnam.
Once that war is over, both Vietnams will be well advised to be controlled in Vietnam.
He has got that clearly.
No, I think this is very true, sir.
Is it?
Nobody can go Vietnam.
Because the whole thing is now in Cambodia, it will depend on Vietnam.
Very much so.
Yes.
And Vietnam, in turn, depends greatly on Cambodia, because a lot of this increased security has come.
As we're coming to that point, as we're cutting off those sanctuaries, the fact that Cambodia now has cutting off those sources of supply, that's one of the reasons why the level of fighting is down.
And it's all part of the package.
And we're doing our best.
It's going well.
We're doing our best to bring that up.
But we are, I assure you that we are not going to just move out and put ourselves in and out.
We have to do it our own way, in our own time.
and by negotiation possible and by a major withdrawal if necessary.
Because I think it would be, from having traveled that area or part of the world very much and having a very strong feeling of respect for the people there and wanting to see them, you know, choose their own way.
I think that it would not be a healthy thing for that part of the world, for the United States,
Hello, Mr. King.
It doesn't let you go that way.
You've got your big neighbor in the dark.
And I think we're a pretty good guarantee.
I think also, Prime Minister, I know you're a very good statement on our matter.
We announced today that Dr. Kishkin is going to go over again to make the final decisions for our trip.
But we feel that that trip, rather than being disturbing to people in Southeast Asia, should be reassuring.
Yes.
Because as long as you, don't you think that's true?
How do you see it?
What is your judgment?
And how do your people view it?
We both have to take steps forward to ease tensions in the area.
And so we also, what is important is that you brought me to the point of being that the only way you can make a response to a formal action
At the moment, she's being isolated.
She's against the order of the Asia.
And she's supporting all these subversive elements.
So we feel that she's a big power, surrounded by millions of people.
And we made us responsible for the action.
And also we made us responsible to implement this law in Asia.
That's why the moment you announced the trip to Egypt, I made a statement and I said, we welcome it.
I think it is a good move to set up these stations because
Even this, there's always been confrontations that you know yourself, the number of incidents, the blue things up, the situation in Korea.
Well, we've been through it twice, yes.
We have almost 1,000 American dead in wars, which basically were supported by the Chinese, one in Korea, the other in Vietnam.
So it's much to our interest and much to the interest of the countries there.
I think we should have allusions, however, that they're... Maybe I should not.
Maybe I need to ask in terms of the question.
What is the level of Chinese support, the Communist Chinese support, of subversion now in your country and other countries?
This tree is up, down, upward, what is that?
What does that mean to say?
We have miracles of what?
Thank you.
You have about, in your country, you have a very substantial Chinese population.
Forty percent.
Forty percent.
Yes.
You don't know about that, do you?
Of course, also for oil.
Yes.
But it's not...
Yes, we have a very small business.
We have a very small problem.
I am the trade mission of our country.
We need to be the same trade mission.
And the leader of the trade mission, one of the different men, is very keen to have, you know, the conversation with us.
And we invite the German mission to visit us.
As I have always been thinking about this, I have asked them, you see, and I've asked them two questions, one that you can propose.
Oh, they say it's in line with their idea of peaceful existence and not interfere with the affairs of our country.
I say that we have another problem.
I say this is the terrorists.
They call it the communist terrorists, and they say that we are support.
I said, well, we support it.
They say that they have your support.
Oh, yeah, sure, sure.
I said, they say they have your support.
Would you be prepared to be glad to go to meet the people who come?
You don't support them.
So they say, well, we are trade nations.
We are not political.
And so they said, can you report to our government?
I said, yes, by all means.
This is one of the things that nobody asked.
And last night we had a discussion with the foreign ministers of the ASEAN countries.
And we had a discussion on this and on the whole situation, particularly Western China.
Not so much the question of China coming into the UN or not coming this year or not.
It's rather about the relationship with China,
I think we generally agree that this idea of transparency is a good idea.
Maybe it is difficult to realize.
We are agreeing with that, too, but I said that it is objective to my statement.
So we are going to have another meeting in fall or fall, in November.
What countries will participate?
You don't have the Cambodians there?
None of the Saudis?
I would hope that you would not...
I know you don't want to get involved in the ocean thing, but the Cambodians really deserve support.
This is a direct forum.
It's a terrible thing, and they're keeping a good report on what they're doing.
They're very, very well supported.
They are basically neutral citizens.
They don't want to fight.
No.
And there are good people training them.
But they are bombing them.
They are training them.
In fact, the foreign minister said so.
They are very careful with us.
For training, general training, we will train them to listen.
We are not giving them help, but we will do what we can.
Because we have all the problems we have with them ourselves.
We are training them.
And we told them, we welcome 10%, any number of people or patients can go off there.
We've got a number of schools there.
You're experienced.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I experienced it in your country.
Yes.
Way back in the days.
In Tampa, yes.
Tucker was there.
He was a remarkable man.
He had a remarkable wife, too.
He worked late after work with all sorts of good people and volunteers.
He did a good job.
The comics have come to be, sir.
The comics, too, you remember, right?
Used to be my detective defense when I messed up.
Yes, that's right.
Yes, sir.
Very good, very good.
A good time, sir.
One of the best that this did was sell me.
He thinks we're doing very well with the announcement.
Yes, sir.
Here's the ammortia.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah.
He was obsessed with it.
It's very high.
He in progress made an ammortia.
Yes, sir.
And we'll get another report of it, and I'm sure it's going to be.
I think so, sir.
No, he's not in Thailand.
Yes, sir.
We were very happy that he didn't have to go to Thailand.
Because we have got this common border here.
Sure.
And we feel that there could be a little bit more.
But we have to use the tools.
At least have a little bit of group there.
It might be interesting if Thompson is...
I don't know what his plans are.
You know, he...
Yeah, you consider him an expert.
Yes, he is.
Yeah.
Nobody gave a chance a year ago.
You realize a year ago, in the papers here, every, you know, citizen that told us, every night, you know, not fast enough, all pissed around, but the Cambodians will never stand.
And here they are, still against.
We think so.
You do.
We think the Cambodians will take it.
Because we have that wheel in us, because we will survive.
I'm sorry I'm not getting out.
It's just a feeling, a couple little thoughts.
Marshall said that we dominate the enemy morally, not just physically, but morally.
Yes.
And that's very important.
Yes, it is.
He's much, much better than he was when I saw him in Hawaii.
Well, he's got that paralysis of an arm.
Yes.
We like them.
They're very gentle people.
They're like buddies.
Yeah, the Burmese are nice people.
How are they getting along with you?
They seem to have had some terrible problems.
Every first time, I have to go three times.
Do you believe that it will go that way?
I don't know why I didn't see it.
It's not going to be any different.
Yes, it could be, because they've got a lot of water in the Chinese.
They cannot move.
If they move, it will be the Chinese.
But, but, it's...
But they've got good, they've got a strong army.
The only thing...
They have, they have good.
Oh, the army is good.
The only thing is, economically, I'm telling you right now, because the idea of, uh, what is your, uh, social service, what, you know, you cannot close in.
This is my statement, but you can't.
You've got to open up, you know.
You can't close in, aren't they?
You can't close in, yeah.
You can't go out there.
Well, I hear kind of that you and you, I know you want private investments.
Yes.
And you can.
Yes.
That's great.
I mean, it's hopeful, despite the differences they may have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, if you can't sing it for her, then they can go out and get investments.
You're getting them.
He's a good man, basically.
He's good.
He's a strong man.
I think when I was there, you knew it was Prime Minister.
53.
Yes.
Nice man.
Yes.
But, uh, they went and said, General, is there any of the army?
Well, the Burmese people, I know, were so kind.
Yes.
You know, I think of all the people, you know.
Yes.
That part of me today, you serve, you serve a chance to have a little peace.
It's just a terrible, terrible war.
It's a terrible chance to choose their own way.
I don't care what you think.
We have no peace in the world.
We have no peace.
He had to be the piece in all of it.
You had a terrible problem there.
You were fighting those terrorists for years.
The Philippines, you had the Hawks.
The Philippines, you had that problem.
Yes, the Cardinal.
Yeah, that was enough.
All that was the Cardinal, too.
An able hand.
How that great Tom was wasted.
He became so obsessed with himself that he could not really do for his people what he could.
He became able to have
Mark is a great speaker.
I've heard him speak to 100,000 people.
There's just so much I don't know.
He's a very good speaker.
But if you ever like what he says, it comes to nothing.
It's just a new story.
It's just words.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And again, what does he believe?
He believes in Mark and stuff, but not his company.
The entity is coming along.
Oh, yes.
Yes, I was there a year ago.
Yes, December.
Yes, of course, they got a little competition.
I like it.
And now it's good money.
Both people have it.
Good Patriots.
Do you think the nation is coming along?
Coming along, yes.
Yes, I think so.
Or maybe we'll have this government, but it's another idea.
First of all, it's good to be elected president now.
I think that's the department.
Each country's got to choose its own way and so forth.
Our interest really is that it's very honestly felt.
We want to help without hurting.
We respect the right of each country to choose whatever response is more important.
We would point out that we are no threat to anybody.
I think that's generally the case.
And we should also point out that our
just retreating from that scene would leave a vacuum, would inevitably be filled.
That's what we're trying to do, is to maintain a presence, a presence that indicates our interest, our discernment, and for countries that want to be, you know, whatever they want to be, neutral or otherwise, but without any nomination.
And I feel, you know,
and our relations with the Chinese, we can contribute to that.
That's all for good.
China really has enough problems within China to not get involved in any place else.
Well, to be quite candid, let me say that I do not expect that the broad differences that we have are going to be resolved.
There are no commitments and no conditions on either side.
And there will be none, I guess, during this period, which has to go.
Now, what it really does, what it will mean, is what, perhaps at the minimum, is simply the opening of a dialogue about those differences, about whatever our role is to be the American people of this city, which we intend to continue to play.
That's to be very clear.
And, of course,
what can happen regarding normalization of relations, I don't expect it to, we don't know how far that will go, we don't see it.
And what can happen, and this is of course very important, in terms, speaking of normalization, of the contact, trade, and all that sort of thing, you see.
Now, the very high problems, like,
something Vietnam is still going on.
They take one position, we take another.
The Taiwan problem is a very difficult problem.
And we, as you know, we have our position in the UN.
But I think that the important thing, Mr. Prime Minister, about this is
And this is one of those few times when a visit in itself is useful.
Useful because it means that a communication is started between two countries that for the last 25, 20 years have had no communication.
And two countries who have had differences that flowed into the peripheral borders for the ancient sense.
Now, as a result of these communications,
It does not need this dialogue that was established.
If the difference is about right, let me put it in another context.
Look at the relations that the United States has had with the Soviet Union since over these past 20 years.
I was vice president in 18 years ago, and senator before that.
And then, the United States and the Soviet Union have
diplomatic relations to Moscow in 1959 and South Russia, who came here.
In that period of time, the fact that the United States had diplomatic relations with the Soviet did not mean that the United States and the Soviet, in cases of terror, in cases of
by that very fact, have their differences evaporated.
Whatever it was, whether it was the Cuban organization, whether it was the Pages, or whether it was Europe, or the Inter-European Wall, or an arms race, or a trade, or else, we had a difference.
Now, however, now,
There is some thawing, but that agreement is very important.
Very important.
We're making progress on arms control.
But most important, we have avoided, since we have been in, any confrontation with the Soviet Union.
Now, the difference is still there, but we're talking about and beginning to make progress.
Now let's turn to the whole track.
I think the fact that we have the relationship with the Soviet is to a certain extent a restraint on them and on us, but on them too.
Now, the fact that we will have now some sort of communication with the Chinese, I think certainly will not mean that they are more compatible.
It could well mean, and there are no conditions or promises that will happen, but I think it could well mean that it will be a restraining influence on them.
That would be what I would hope it is.
I'm putting it at the minimum.
Who knows?
By the time we go there, it's more of a problem.
But the reason that I was willing to take this, but it's for us a difficult step because we have a very strong view of this country that has nothing to do with us.
They're going to have to break off the Soviet, too.
I don't know if you know, but the record of our kind of kind is sort of here.
My view is this.
of looking at what has happened in the last
20 years, the Korean War and the Vietnamese War, looking at what could happen in 15 or 20 years from now when China will be a substantial nuclear power.
It seemed to me that it was very important that an effort be made now, at a time when China is isolated from the rest of the world, isolated in the sense of its, not perhaps by any whose choice it knows, at this time, and with the Soviet Union unable
It seemed that we should make the necessary step to start to try to bring them into a dialogue with us and a dialogue with the rest of the world.
I don't think that their attitude is going to change.
It's what could happen is that over a period of time, there will be very sharp debate, etc.
we can temporize this and keep it in, keep it in the, frankly, the debate, frankly, rhetoric area, other than the conflict area.
How are they?
Would you add anything to that?
I know you've been sitting on these things, but we hope to be out of this as a, you know, sir, I think this is a very positive, getting to the very fact of the talk.
You get it, don't you?
We of course have to handle this in a very different way.
Because if, for example, we reschedule it, we will be restrained in China.
It has been their efforts to support revolution in other parts of the world.
They will go off with the interests of Russia's underpinning.
Well, we have to say, especially agreeing on this unofficial contact, in the hope that they will stop supporting this incitement.
Well, as a matter of fact, you see, you can make it, frankly,
Weren't they liable?
The communists, I have learned, are a very practical, cold-blooded group.
That's part of being a communist.
And I respect them for that.
I don't agree with it.
But I respect our head in the ocean.
Now, if they think that there's more in it than them to get along with you,
And to irritate you, they'll get along with you.
So we would like, in that sense, to give the Chinese-Chinese some incentive to get along with us, which means that they would have less incentive to irritate us and irritate our friends on a real-life basis.
So we really see our role here as one that should not concern our friends.
on the real name of Asia, we're non-communists.
But one that we really should be, while not totally reassuring, because after all, they are communists.
They still have their desire eventually to dominate the world, et cetera.
We understand that.
We don't agree with it, but we understand it.
But anyhow, as being the pragmatists they are, we feel that this kind of contact cannot hurt
and that it might help.
Provided we go into it as I went into it, or as you could gather from my own discussions.
Not that you must be quite amused by some of our commentators and the rest, and think, well, now that this, now, whatever.
I know exactly what they're up to.
And they know what we're up to.
I think it's the hard-headed people on both sides.
Well, we won't be exactly on that kind of a talk.
But as a matter of fact, Mr. Groening was sitting in this chair, right?
We had a very good talk.
But it was hard to talk on both sides.
And sometimes I agree.
But it has to be that way.
But in good humor.
That is, of course, something.
Provided you were never taken in by me.
One thing that I've heard is that some of our people, you're not the secret, you live under the threat.
But I've heard so many of them, so many Westerners,
The unsophisticated people in Asia, there are some there too, but those that are not, they go home and a communist will smile and say, here, we're fine, we just want peace and all that, and they'll think that that means something.
It doesn't mean anything.
It's a tactic.
It's a tactic.
And Bob, we say, all right, you can play your game, but just know and not be taken in by the same token.
that if you put the hard-headed on the assumption that they're only going to do things to serve their self-interest, and that therefore you should do things only to serve your self-interest, if we both approach it that way,
I think it would make some progress.
That's the way we've been doing it, so that's where we're going to be going.
This is the thing I told my people sometimes, our people against the idea of having this contact.
I told them, this contact is not going to happen.
So much so that you know where you're going and when you're going.
And you know that, as I said, we have all this contact.
And we know that we cannot leave the bed over there.
I don't know if you could all go on, but if we can have a time, at least there's a hope that we can slowly leave a legacy, so to speak.
You agree.
You see, all around, in the Middle East and Asia, first there's Japan, economic giants, military big people, and then there's Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines.
Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and then eventually Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand, Burma.
We've all had the impact of that, which has its own typical problems.
But here you have 300 million people, and those 300 million people produce three times as much as we do in China.
And so many of China gets 750 million.
That's true.
But these 300 million, they have a right to go there,
That's what we like to do about it.
We've got to give them a chance to go their own way.
That's what I call this country.
It's our position.
And I hope that my country, our system, by showing that we can work together in the next media year, we can make some declaration that we want to be together, move together on all these issues.
Then I think there's a chance that we'll respect it.
But let's just say that the whole small country, South Asia, including Japan, we have about 200,000 people.
Or 300.
Even those in Japan, you've got over 100 million in Indonesia.
So you get up to 300 million there.
300 million force there.
It's very significant.
You know, you look at it.
You start to look at it in terms of Western Europe.
Western Europe has 300 million.
And freedom.
Here's so-called, what we call free agent.
We're not a communist nation.
It's 300 million.
It's not salvation.
Well, that's a considered force.
Second sentence is that it must not be tied to freedom.
Especially to, not to try to build a great military complex and stuff, but at least to sort of stand together, work together, trade together.
There's so many things that you want to do together.
Yes, there's so many things.
That's true.
We all have responses to each other.
You're rich.
You really are.
Well, we can be left alone.
It's a disaster.
We're rich people.
Yes.
Well, I think when you have your conference, you can assure your colleagues that this is our advice, that you can pass it directly to my field and tell them that our interests are, we're not getting out.
Yes.
We're not getting out.
Not because we want, God knows, any more responsibilities, but because we think for us to leave, we'll leave to our back.
Yes.
And that we must not do again.
So we will maintain our presence where it is wanted and where it will be of assistance in certain areas of the world, but we will maintain our economic assistance programs as it is needed and where it is wanted.
And we respect the right of every country to go its own way.
So what we would want to do is to work toward maintaining in that area a balance where
the non-patriotic genocidal era of life.
And this is very much in our fantastic way.
And also with regard to Vietnam, our goal there, we have no designs on North Vietnam.
Once it's over, we'll be glad to help them as well as anybody else.
We always do that.
We help the Japanese and the Germans.
Now they're our patron adventurers.
These local people themselves.
But we believe that in Vietnam, our Southeast,
Well, what is basically Indochina in those states can be and they can be a very powerful force for progress in the area.
And we hope to tend our involvement in a way that will be responsible, that will not be
And we will never do this that will not just say, look, we have fought, we've lost 50,000, and now we're going to turn it over to you.
We can't do that because of the encouragement we believe that would give to this kind of, frankly, anxious policy in that part of the world, apart from moral considerations.
So we are very strongly, you could say, too, there's another factor they can bear in mind,
Perhaps this is just one of the accents of history.
I am probably the first one who has occupied this office and knows that part of the world very well.
I have a very special duty for it.
I live in California and I know the Pacific.
I think the last quarter of a century is going to be the Europe of the Pacific.
I don't think that Europe is going to be terribly important in the balance of time, but the Pacific is what it is.
I mean, you've got the
And we, I want to see policies developed that will make that Europe a peaceful Europe.
That's all I want to say.
Well, you will extend my best to the doctor.
He was always very kind, you see.
I'll scratch your ear.
Are you a golfer, too?
Yes.
Oh, wait a minute.
I'll get you a booth.
Here's your golf ball.
Thank you.
I didn't want it to come to me.
Oh, thank you.
I didn't want it to come to me.
It's in the president's seal.
It's in the president's seal.
I always give those to him.
I don't want to be a part of it.
Thank you.