Conversation 592-006

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Oh, yeah.

You've got Vietnam done and China underway and Russia coming up.

But you know this, Bob, you couldn't be more right.

It's the networks.

That's what I mean.

I'm still trying to get over across the bigger coin.

It's the networks that matter.

I know the Star and the Times and believe the Times and the Post.

Vietnam's not an issue in the papers anymore.

It is not a significant issue.

Right?

It's an issue on the networks.

Because they've got their reporters out there.

That's actually got that huge investment out there.

And Brinkley, of course, is not up on it, too.

You know, he gets there every night.

And gives his opinion.

Doesn't show his opinion.

Isn't that correct?

Brinkley now does.

He now acknowledges that it's an editorial on the air, like several times.

That's his pitch now, just an opinion thing.

Bob is absolutely correct.

This week they've just started, you can sense it, they've just started to swing that pendulum a little.

And they go through these cycles with him for a while and very good.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think they played hell out of the elections and didn't make much impact with it.

That's right.

And I was talking about a platoon that wouldn't go into combat.

Who wants to be the last man out to die?

Motorcycles.

Oh, sure.

Well, it might quite exist.

You got the Russian announcement.

Either that or he's going to force our opponents to overreact the other way and try to any place they can.

Any place they can.

Right, Bob.

Yep.

Absolutely.

Well, I think that Doyle comment is really working on it.

What can you do, Jack?

What can you do to get our legislative groups going?

They just told us to run.

No, they want to be up.

Right, Bob?

It shouldn't help shit.

Aros, what do you have to do to get them out?

You've got to take them by the hand, Mr. President, and walk them through it.

And it's sad to say, but it's the only way it works.

It's not only sad, it's unbelievable.

The day that Goldwater, Bob and I discussed it this week,

I think we both know the solution if we find the right man.

But the day that we got Goldwater to attack Kennedy, we not only had to write it for him, we had to bring it back here to Minneapolis and take it back to the Senate press corps because his office staff wouldn't do it.

Unbelievable.

Why aren't they doing it?

They were too busy with their own stuff.

So we...

And that's the problem.

We need our own apparatus, our own guy who just does nothing but leave these bullets down and make them start off what we want them to start off and take them back.

And they do it if you get to them personally.

It's a hell of a time consuming effort, but there's just no other way.

Well, you know, a perfect case.

I talked to Ed Brook yesterday morning and told him what we wanted.

He was just high as he could be.

He said, this is fantastic.

The president is just superb.

Nothing came on the wire, so I called Ed back at 3 o'clock and he said, I've just done it.

Well, you know, if we'd been there, we'd have done it for him and gotten it out.

These fellas all live in their own little world.

Didn't none of them, I guess, want to be national figures?

He's got us there pretty well, I think.

For?

No, that's pretty well.

Very good for him.

So that's about it.

That's what he's trying to do.

That's what he used to assess the mindset that ourselves count on.

And if he does, he's going to sit it right.

That's also the reward.

Yep.

Always guessing what's going to happen.

That's the problem.

He loathes to be out there with a prediction.

I personally think they ought to get a man to sit around and knock away rather than wait.

They're doing it, I think, isn't it?

Yes, I didn't know.

This morning, the first race, I've been trying to get Clark.

I picked Clark.

Yesterday, he told me the idea was to move it immediately.

That's what I thought.

Take the hit now.

I must have changed it.

Well, I look for it.

Actually, it looks a little better right now.

while I buy and raise or rob a U.P.I.

store of my son's when I come to the revolution in this land.

Well, you've got an anti-Republican.

In terms of Jesus Christ, he shouldn't be here to make you leave.

They shouldn't be here to make us leave.

That's the whole point.

You've got a guy like Henry Smith who says he's a Christian.

He says he's a Christian.

I don't believe that U.P.I.

said that.

I can't believe Smith said that.

That kind of a guy who says that.

You shouldn't be here to make me mad.

I think what's the rough spell there?

Forget it.

Yeah.

The rough spell is there's no way to get it accomplished.

And so this is jail for it, as I said, the focus doesn't get motivated by a totally different set of

You might as well face the fact that there's no way around it.

Plus, the quality has deteriorated very significantly in the last 10 years.

Yeah, you're right.

There were some real good, tough men up there who wrestled.

The average quality has deteriorated, and the quality of the top men has deteriorated.

Yeah, and there's a new breed of demigod up there that, you know, Huxmire in 1958, when he was into the Nats, now he's... And now, also, there's another Nats.

their staffs.

And you've got a bunch of the interns and staffs and others up there, these bright young people, and they're all, for the most part, leading till to the left.

And they can probably keep these poor bachelors from saving.

And the staffs are much bigger now.

They've got much more cash.

The other day, three of the staff, as I did, the amounts of $12,000 to the total staff, God, they've got eight in a congressman's office.

Oh, yeah.

and less control over them, less time to them.

But Mr. President, you know, really looking at it, you've done pretty damn well in the last couple of months.

I really should have.

You sure have on those votes.

And that has to have, you know, that has to strengthen leadership.

What's your opinion on the call?

Has it changed?

I think he's...

No, I don't think so.

So long.

I think for a while he was moving up.

No, I don't think he's coming up any.

I don't think he's going down, you know.

I don't think they're not paying enough attention.

He's starting, he's, I think that's, he's starting to fade, and then what'll happen when he fades, he starts out and lashes out.

You know, he could make those.

And then, then, uh, he goes up with a small group and down someone with a big group.

Doesn't add anything.

No, and he's personally a little bit withdrawn now.

I mean, he's very defensive.

Yeah.

Which makes it tough.

I understand.

He's a terribly sensitive man.

Very.

Thank God we got him to go to Greece.

I don't think he'd be able to do anything at all.

Don't really.

It means a lot to him.

What's the matter with your stock market people?

It'll keep bouncing until it'll keep where it is.

I helped them.

I said they'd keep bouncing until we announced that it was still being announced.

And then I said, so let's clarify.

Let's clarify until later comes along.

They'd come along.

No, the uncertainty is that the announcement of phase two hasn't answered for them the specific questions about what each one of them faces in its own business.

Phase two will never end.

Exactly the point.

The thing they've got to understand is the principles of it and not the details.

They're just waiting now to see all the details.

Then your earnings start coming out and all that kind of stuff.

Your retail sales, what...

He's got a very preliminary system that will never be released, but what he's got at the moment shows his tail is up overall.

More than totally accounted for by Idaho.

The growth is more than totally accounted for.

But the percentage over the last year is still running 8 to 9 percent during the September.

That's right.

And there were two weeks when it went well above that.

There were two big weeks.

17 percent.

One of them was.

And there's cars.

Well, his personality and apparel was way under the table.

Oh, okay.

Well, Carter's just a big lover.

That might be.

I think you're just going over those periods and things are pretty damn good.

That's it.

That's the other point.

Oh, this is Jack.

I was glad you talked to Reesner.

And he's the dog.

I said somebody wrote it.

Now, that's possible.

That is possible.

Yeah, but you know, as you're reading your script...

The important thing is that these fellows know that we don't let them off the hook when they do this.

We've just gone back to rather on one.

And just every week you have to pick one out and kind of jab it in.

Who the hell else in the cabinet team is?

Can we get to say something to each other?

Who do you think?

We, unfortunately, are not as Democrats as we need to be.

He does say good things about us to the bunch.

He says great things about us.

Well, if he's full of pride, I think he does pretty well.

I agree.

Yes, very well.

There have been times when we've liked him to be a little tougher than he is, but basically...

He's not a stranger.

He won't look well.

But...

But he has made a couple of superb performances in the last couple of months.

Two or three that have just been outstanding.

Layard can be useful, Mr. President, if he thinks you want it.

On this Kennedy thing, I kept pushing his people, which Galley did.

Couldn't get a damn thing out of him.

He sent a man over to see me, a fellow who works for him, who I know, and said, is this really important, and is this something that the President would like?

And I said,

And he did it.

So he can at times be very helpful in letting you know when they do things like that.

I heard Bob, I told you he was, came and told these guys that they could step up to something.

If they step up to an operation.

Stan is another guy who has two or three times stepped up and hit the ball very hard.

Well, he doesn't make a whole lot of news when he does.

He does try.

That's the problem.

Romney is probably the most difficult to get off his stuff.

Yeah, and he...

He's very hard to get.

I think he's a lost cause.

He shouldn't be.

He should be damn good.

What I did was put him on a peace mission.

He shouldn't be lost on that.

That's what he did.

Yeah.

I don't get it.

It's one of our greatest favors, Mr. Sparrow.

He kind of can't, he just boils it down.

I think he talks about what a great job he's doing, but he never, have you ever tried him?

Yes, sir.

What's happened?

Very little.

He doesn't harm, of course.

Morton, Morton is so kind.

No, he's so unkind, isn't he?

Well, you've got four of our guys that will really go out and step up to it.

And what cabinet are you asking?

That's what I was going to say.

I don't think it's any different.

Well, this FDR is a piece.

And you've got a company.

We've got a company.

Yes, we are.

I would accept the company as a government.

We can't do the government.

No, sir, I think.

All right, we can't use Kevin Washington.

We can't use Carson.

I think we can use Kevin Washington more than we do.

We can get him, ease into it, get him a taste of blood.

Rumsfeld has dropped out.

He says he's got to be non-blood.

Well, Rumsfeld has never been much on attack anyway.

He doesn't, and he doesn't general attack, so Rumsfeld's very good on the front end.

And Mitch, too.

Justin, you know...

He's equivocating on his attack.

He won't hit anymore.

He hasn't made any news in two months.

Well, I think he's the...

I spent time with him, you know.

I rode over the helicopter with him and rode back, and I really gave him... For some reason, what he's done has shifted from that freewheeling and hard-swinging senator that he was to a chairman of the National Committee who has to worry about the...

Well, he makes another mistake.

He spritz the damn Nathaniel Travel Law somewhere and talk to 300 people.

Not get a nickel's worth of publicity.

Well, who is it?

Who is Postler?

Nobody.

It's a... No, we let him in there for a purpose.

We tried to tell him on one of the networks for a talk show and they said they didn't want him because he wasn't making any news.

And then we finally got him on one, and he wouldn't come back from Wichita to do it.

The poor fellow, I think... No, no, no, no.

He doesn't have the ability to do it.

He does have the ability.

I mean, I see him on the first page.

Oh, it just means you tried hard.

All right.

Isn't that frustrating?

It's, uh, you know, it goes in cycles.

You shift one people into somebody else's.

If we get 50% of the time that we try to get these fellows, we get them.

As long as you get them 50% of the time, that just means you tried that many more times.

And you'll never have what you'd like.

Well, I don't think so.

I don't think so.

What I mean, though, is something else.

If they can't do it now...

You know, after all, he and the Democrats, they were making some big plays for him.

And so, I tell you, if you've done any of this, I tell you, I go after the cabinet meeting and say, we brought them in and we gave them.

They seem to be all right.

That is our hardest time to get them going on stuff.

That's exactly right.

When you were in California the last two weeks in August, and you, therefore, weren't able to do anything.

At least every day, somebody from the cabinet really did step up and did a pretty damn good job.

They'll pick it up when...

Control is a special problem which Bob and I have been working on very hard.

We'll get him back.

His own self-confidence is involved and it's just going to figure some way to... Why do you think it matters too much?

I think what he's done is he's, and you've seen it every time he's been in here, he gets out, he does, the worst thing he can do as a public figure is get into personal contact with people, and he does.

He gets into small meetings.

He does a group of 300, but he also gets into the state and sits down with the state chairman and three people.

Well, Jesus Christ, Mr. Chairman, if you don't get the corn up, we ain't gonna make it.

And he comes running back, or he says, and he says, hours, as you know, of POWs.

And he gets terribly depressed, as anybody would.

How'd he get depressed when he talked to us?

That's the depressing thing.

Well, he keeps inundating himself with that kind of stuff, where a public figure like that has got to remove himself from that personal contact with people with petty problems and just demagogue over their heads.

But also, also, Bob hasn't been through enough national politics to know that when the governor of Vermont says to you, if you don't appoint this guy FHA director, you'll never carry the state...

And they all do that.

But after you've been around a while, he comes right back and says, you're going to lose your mind.

Oh, sure.

He called me up and said, we won't carry your mind next time.

We don't appoint this guy.

I said, for Christ's sake.

That's the typical line.

You won't get the last one if you don't go out of this, or you won't do this if you don't do that, and also get involved.

He was asking if I'm getting this one or not.

I don't know, but he just got to stay out of it.

Yeah.

My answer to Bob was that the Becker poll in Vermont shows you're winning the state 2-1.

Then he goes off and moans about something else.

It's just a thing that's got to get him over.

Well, the point is you don't worry about Vermont if you lose a 2-1.

That's the point.

He's got to get in the big plays.

Well, that's the problem with getting down into the...

And boy, you've done enough of that.

Just remember in those congressional campaigns, when you go out and you get trapped in those rooms after the dinner, and the seven leading citizens say, we've got to sit down and talk with you about this situation here.

And then all we're writing about the gun case is always the party squabble in Indiana.

And that's why it's so terribly depressing.

Because of the infighting.

And to be able to talk to the women of their economy class.

They'll come in.

Sure.

And they'll come in to Dr. O'Rourke's and he'll be pressed, because Pantshaw pressed.

Correct?

Yep.

Because the women are fighting.

The women are fighting in Arkansas.

We should let them fight in Arkansas.

If they don't work in the world, instead of fighting in Arkansas, they'll be fighting in Missouri.

Yeah, it's a fact of life.

It doesn't win or lose elections unless it really gets out of control.

They're all mad at Gladys O'Donnell.

They're all for her.

They all want Mary Roe to do something.

Why do we fight with Mexicans?

Because it's a treasure.

Yeah.

Why is she coming up for confirmation?

It's not settled.

She's doing the rounds.

She's trying to show an individual.

We shouldn't get the storage at all of how these fellas are doing.

I think basically they're doing better than they were really a year ago, I think.

A year ago, so that's the point.

That's why you're operating.

We're getting them up there.

We've got to say, much as we love Bryce, we've got to say this also to McGregor.

In the Bryce period, we had to suck those people all the time they needed, right?

Except kick us in the ass.

Well, first, we used the guys back in the 50s who, if they did that, they'd perform, right?

Divine users have a background.

I just go to some of the hard lines, right?

Let the others go their own.

I try to get them broken down and say something.

Well, he makes a hell of an impact when he does it.

Well, Javits, and now he's calling wanting to know what we'd like him to do next.

He loved that.

We got him all over the front page or something.

And they loved that.

But each one you have to play just a little different.

It's just the effort of doing it.

I think also when they read the polls up there in the next two weeks or so, they find they're a little more eager to get on the team.

Yeah, but this sort of, you know, that's the best.

And there's a hell of an impact on them.

Well, I think that's what we're trying to do.

We're trying to get on the team.

Later that day, after I'd seen Conlon, I think that you and Hillary and I, we talked a little more through the end of the chamber there, but then you made notes, and you gave it to the chamber, and I'll make sure it notes, okay?

So the chamber will, you see my point?

Yeah, so the chamber will have something, and so does Henry.

Henry will not be able to run this thing and say, well, the president wants to see that in his game.

So you make notes about it.

This is my understanding of what we want.

How does that sound?

Do you guys strategy this?

Yeah, because that's what we need to get at the time.

And we're going to miss coming around.

It's a big deal.

All right.

Well, you know, I was going to say, John heard me, and he needs to, he's going to get some of that stuff back to me now.

The truck?

Is it?

I don't know what it is.

Because John was such a reasonable man.

I don't know what he said.

I was not sitting in my suit.

Thanks, man.

That's ours.

It needs to be there.

Sure, sure.

Sure, yeah.

Just go to your seat.

Have a close look.

That's the outside.

Huh.

Well, he had a gun in his back, but he didn't go.

Yeah.

Sort of that type of stuff.

There's the main watch.

Mm-hmm.

I just heard it, heard it.

That's the kind of place I like.

You know

Well, no, no.

I, I, I, I, I won't be able to see him in the bottom of the house.

I've got to stay silent.

Uh, Rosewood is going to be in a pretty good situation.

Mr. and Mrs. Burns are here in the White House, and if you'd like them to drop in for the last period, it's over your head then, too.

I don't know how to deal with the price, you know.

It's going to be real, though.

I'm not going to do it.

I'm just going to brag.

I'm not going to do it.

Oh, my God.

Thank you.

Why don't you just have your side of the machine?

You should do that for a reason.

They're going to buy a piece of paper.

We know that right from the start.

Don't, it's a, don't, don't hesitate to use the machine.

Don't ever hesitate to use the machine.

Because if you know, you don't know what the next, this routine that you're providing me, I offer it to you.

That's it.

Okay, that's safe.

Right up.

10-15 seconds.

We will take a 60 minutes break.

We'll be right back.