Nixon, Kissinger & Peterson on Textile Trade Agreement and J. Edgar Hoover

15:09We know that, right?
15:09I agree with that.
15:10I'm 100% with you on that.
15:12Being asked, Mrs. Dahl, how many have heard of workable mistakes, and she's all caught up.
15:20Well, she's pretty darn smart because she doesn't waste time on these things.
15:26How do you mean?
15:26Well, when they have this type of workload, a lot of these judges will sit down and write their 30-page opinion.
15:34You don't need that.
15:35What you need to do is dispose of the case, and that's what she's done, basically.
15:40There are some areas with some issues where she has written.
15:43more mature opinions on the subject matter, where they needed it.
15:47But the idea is to get the word.
15:48Right.
15:49Most, if we remember, justice must be swift and, according to Holmes' rule, it also must be predictable for recent justice.
15:58That's another thing about, that's the great, that's the terrible thing about the law, according to me, it's not predictable for the House of Presidents anymore.
16:10Right now, you can't advise the House of Presidents
16:13I know.
16:14I'm sorry about that.
16:15He's going to have to do it.
16:17He won't do it until 72.
16:21What his plan was, Mr. President, as of yesterday when he walked in, was to deliver to you a resignation that became effective September 18, 1972.
16:31The reason for that is that, of course, you can't go through this term without it.
16:39Chief Justice.
16:42And, of course, September would be the period before the new term of the court.
16:47You see, the reason I had the point was that he then has resigned only because of one reason, because he's forthright.
16:59And not this woman, but because she's a woman.
17:02Uh, yes.
17:03Does he have a qualified one?
17:04No.
17:05That's my point.
17:06His letter of Wednesday says that, but there haven't been enough of them exposed to the judicial process long enough to obtain this statute.
17:15The mutation has to take place, aren't you?
17:21As long as he has.
17:23More?
17:25And the point is that he says, he bases his argument on qualification, but basically it is the woman who gets it.
17:33And he goes into the argument, well, you should have a Jew and a black and a Chinaman and a Burmese.
17:38He thought that?
17:40Well, this is the argument as to why you shouldn't select a woman.
17:43Oh, then you'd have to go to all psychos.
17:47He's gone through all of this on the woman.
17:49I'm sure you're very sure that that is the present purpose of it.
17:53I assure him of that, and the track record proves it.
18:01He's perfectly willing to accept the geographical requirement of the South.
18:08But it still goes back to that woman.
18:13That's the... We'd be better off having him resign now than September 72nd.
18:20But in court, it would just fall apart.
18:25The best thing for him to do is to take this at this point and then withhold his judgment until later.
18:35And then he may decide that he has a chance to think about it.
18:38This is why also, particularly this thing I love more, we understand it.
18:43And you will know it until later, but don't you put yourself or this court in a position
18:49Well, in addition to that, I pointed out to him that if he had these foibles and strong feelings, he would be in a hell of a light if he submitted the resignation as an alma mater, that he'd be a hell of a lot stronger not to do it, and to look at the situation, he can always resign if that's his problem.
19:11Do you have any other questions, sir?
19:17Greg, got any problems with that?
19:20I never had any.
19:20At least we got an actual study of it.
19:23I think that was great.
19:24I believe it's on Clinton's desk today.
19:28If it isn't, well, we're just going to announce it anyway.
19:31What he was hanging up with his wife without a chance.
19:34He wanted her back before he did it.
19:37She's back.
19:38Is there a time to flip it out and do the other thing?
19:44What's he going to base it on?
19:46Basically, all of this...
19:49newspaper business and so forth made it impossible for him to be effective as the head of the criminal division.
19:58It has.
19:59Well, it would if it continued to be an erosion.
20:02The main thing is to get it out before they drive it off.
20:07Don't let it get driven off.
20:10No, we have a very able fellow who is a deputy over there, which we would appoint as acting and look at it and say,
20:19This is a pretty hard area to get people in confidence.
20:23Wilson was first class.
20:25God, he traveled and pushed those strike forces in the organized crime field.
20:29Isn't that a shame?
20:31Deloach, do you have any good advice?
20:35Deloach's advice, if you want, this is about Hoover.
20:37Very simple and direct.
20:42that the only way you're going to get rid of Hoover is to call him in and tell him that he's through and give him his prerogative, prerequisites, you know, the car and the consultants and this, that, and the next.
20:56He says that Hoover, there's nobody, not Dick Berlin or anybody else that can get to Hoover.
21:04He's been in the ivory tower.
21:07What's his name?
21:10Deloge?
21:11Yeah, he thinks that Hoover ought to get out of there.
21:14Why does he think so?
21:15Because of what's coming.
21:17He thinks it's that bad?
21:19Yes.
21:22And he talks to Hoover all the time about different things.
21:26Hoover, of course, treats him as a junior partner, so to speak.
21:29He'll call him up and go over everything and try and justify his own position.
21:40Nobody ever has.
21:41Thomas called me yesterday to say that, uh, one of the news magazines is going with an alert case of the FBI and espionage.
21:51Time.
21:52Time magazine.
21:53And, uh, espionage, yeah.
21:55That, uh, the Bureau is... Well, so the background of this is that Sullivan went to a couple of admirals around here.
22:04and complained that Hoover wasn't doing the proper thing and that they, of course, put it in Novak's column as the basis of the Smith article in the Times, and now Time has picked this up and the new society is the one that's been after Helms and so forth.
22:28That's the problem.
22:30We just can't lose that way.
22:32If we can't win, they drive us out, which they might.
22:36You know what I mean?
22:38It's out in the fire.
22:39It pulls people down.
22:40I don't think that the story can fight too big, John, because they got what he wanted to do.
22:47We don't want to call him out.
22:52We have to wait for more bills.
22:55He is invited.
22:56You know how he is.
22:59You've got to go based on the rumors and so forth.
23:05Well, this is going to get progressively worse, in my opinion, because they've got that report of that ad hoc committee up there, and you've got Sullivan out now who has credibility, although he shouldn't have.
23:21And you've got people in that agency that worked under Sullivan that are going to be leaking this stuff.
23:27I think it'll continue to escalate.
23:29I think he should retire.
23:34Plus the fact that he's getting paranoid, you know, about these things.
23:38You probably notice he's writing letters to the editors and all the rest of it.
23:44And he is getting senile.
23:46You know, when you sit down and talk to him, he repeats himself and goes back into the past.
23:51He's always up on that, but now he just doesn't, without knowing it, he's just
23:57which is just too bad.
24:01One time I... Is he 77?
24:04He is.
24:07One time I had him in my office, and he started to talk, and I looked at my watch.
24:12He talked for 16 minutes and went all over Kelsey's barn without... 16 minutes.
24:1816 minutes without an interrupt.
24:19You were lucky.
24:22I've been over there and had him model for half an hour.
24:27without my doing anyone's work.
24:30And then I went back and got the same thing.
24:35He has a whole kind of groove that he gets.
24:43The thing that concerns me about it, of course, is the internal operations bureau in our building to get stuff out there.
24:51I've been through some of that material that Marty sent over here yesterday.
24:54It's very interesting to see.
24:57You know what happened over there yesterday?
25:09They found that Sullivan had taken all of the materials of the whole Bureau where he, Sullivan, had ever been reprimanded or overwritten, overruled, and so forth.
25:21And he had it all in a file.
25:23They found it.
25:24So Hoover went immediately to all of the supervisors and top people and made them sign affidavits that they had never taken any such material out of the file, but all of that material was still in the file.
25:36Just an idiotic approach.
25:47I feel very strongly about it, Mr. President.
25:52But John says the Bureau is not performing in some areas properly.
25:56What excuse do I have for... No, I didn't have my...
25:59I tried to do it the other way when I had it at breakfast.
26:04I didn't have the opportunity to do it the second time.
26:08What do you say now?
26:11What has changed?
26:13Well, there's the Sullivan thing for one thing.
26:16That hasn't happened.
26:18Oh, that hasn't happened.
26:21That's worrying, isn't it?
26:23It doesn't... Well, I don't know what else...
26:25It's got to worry.
26:26It's got to worry to some extent.
26:28What's really happened, I think, since, is a very overt deterioration of the internal discipline of that bureau.
26:36He would never believe that.
26:37He won't buy it.
26:39He would have to put it on the basis that you become persuaded of it, and you're sure he won't agree with it.
26:45Deloach has a very strong feeling to the point where he will put his ears on it.
26:50that if Hoover has told that now is the time, and that if he gets his prerequisites, in other words, keeps an office, keeps a car, and chauffeur, and a secretary, and so forth, that he is so insecure about never having done anything in his life for himself, that these people can continue to nurse him along and so forth, and he can relate as a consultant to the FBI that Hoover will know
27:18readily, because of his great fondness and relationship with you, that he would never puck something like that.
27:26This is Deloach's heart convinced on that.
27:32The best thing would be for the two of us to walk out before he's gone.
27:37Well, perhaps the both of us can talk to him about it.
27:44I don't know whether that'll embarrass him or not.
27:47That's the only thing.
27:49You know, he feels that he's on that level with you.
27:53Yeah, of course.
27:54Well, he's always paid great attention to me.
27:59He's never fucked me, and he's done what I wanted him to, but he still feels that he's on that friendship level, and that's a great part of his life.
28:07What sort of real nasty stories or busts or something like that?
28:11Something like you said.
28:17One of us, do you have this very high medal for civilians?
28:33Not the Hoover, I understand.
28:36Oh, I'm sure you do.
28:38No, Delos tells me that he has never received that.
28:42Well, it might be put into the pot alongside of all the rest of it.
29:12I'm not sure that's the best way, Mr. President.
29:25No, no, I'm not certain that his behind is the way you want to approach it.
29:29I would think that the best way is to come down hard that it is a political fact of life that he is going to be a detriment to you in your re-election.
29:40and that this, this, and this is going to happen.
29:45It will tear him down, which he shouldn't be torn down.
29:49He ought to resign while he's on the top of the heap.
29:53And his continuity as a consultant and all the rest of it, rather than saying, here's your old boy and your...
30:00internal security division is screwed up.
30:02That isn't going to work.
30:04He wants to go out as the big bureaucrat.
30:07If you were to try and specify to him, that's just the base he doesn't want to go out on.
30:16He wants to go out and do everything.
30:18I don't think they're going to launch a hell of a jackpot.
30:21I think it's going to be a, I think it's going to hurt you, and I think it could be a political life.
30:27Well, sure, you can pick up that Time story, the Evans and Novak column, the Time magazine thing that's coming out there.
30:34Yeah, so they can move on to what else?
30:35Let's get a little of that, and sort of look at all those things.
30:39I'll just sort of try all of them again.
30:44I suspect that probably what you're going to have to do is say, look, this is a judgmental thing.
30:50I've had to make the judgment.
30:52I've made it.
30:52You may disagree with me.
30:53The Attorney General may not agree with me, but it's something that I've just had to... You must remember that Edgar Hoover has talked to the President and myself back last spring when he was under the heat to say that he would get out if it became an embarrassment or a liability to the President in his re-elections.
31:14And I think that this is the thing that he's already on record on, something that he can understand.
31:19He's got to go out and feel it, that he's still part of the team.
31:23He's part of the team, and he's done it in your interest.
31:27But the important thing, Delote says, this fellow is absolutely helpless, that we have to keep this staff over there.
31:34And that's easy.
31:36Yes, sir.
31:39Deloach said that he has the worst pension in the world.
31:42He's worth over two million dollars, but he still has the recreation association by his medicine and all of these things like that.
31:56He is a fascinating individual.
31:59One of the most complex characters.
32:03How he's been able to survive.
32:05But he's got a public sense of public relations.
32:07That's the truth.
32:09That's all he works on.
32:10He's the greatest publicist in the world.
32:14Well, listen, we couldn't leave you here doing the thing, Mr. President.
32:17What?
32:18Going to North Carolina with a million grand?
32:21Yeah, that'll be heard around the world.
32:23Yeah, now I've got to find a thing what the hell to say about it.
32:27I won't say hell.
32:29You got any ideas?
32:32to tell him that he is the man who has been the advisor to all of the presidents.
32:38You certainly would appreciate his advice, particularly the, uh, communication that he gives you from upstairs.
32:45Yeah, I'll say that I've heard.
32:46So, divine intervention.
32:53You know, those are very hard things to talk about.
32:55At least, we might have to do that.
32:57I had to do it here, and it was mental, not mental, but, uh,
33:02on the picture group.
33:04Do you remember the conversation we had with Billy Graham on the Sequoia, where he is now attracting the young folks?
33:18He says so, yes, and this is something I think the young kids, the Jesus groups and so on and so on, but he's brought our attention.
33:25They're coming out for the thousands.
33:28That's correct.
33:29That's hard for me to believe, but they definitely do.
33:33Well, this is a good subject matter at this time with this individual.
33:36They are coming back.
33:39It's illustrated by the fact that he's brought them back.
33:45It's the one bridge across the gap.
33:53young kids, young people can be saved.
33:56You know, you have to realize this whole fundamentalist to Protestant religious saying that there's always an enormous appeal to young people in America.
34:05They'd like to feel that they've changed their lives.
34:08That's what Billy Graham's whole approach is.
34:11They haven't changed their lives.
34:15Particularly out in the country where the church is a focal point of the social life.
34:21I don't get to thank you.
35:37I don't know.
36:25Uh, anything else before I start getting to the ground?
36:28So, did Reese tell George that I'd left him?
36:30Or does he still want me to look at him?
36:33There's still work in the background.
36:35He hasn't come back.
36:37I don't want to be held up waiting for my signature.
36:40It's kind of what they have to do.
36:42It's terrible.
36:43It's terrible.
36:51Did you sign the executive order?
36:57No, I didn't sign that.
37:05No, I didn't sign that.
37:59Now, from now on, as I said, on things that are routine, just use the automatic pen.
38:07It saves me a whole lot of time, and also means a lot of my life.
38:11See, I've worked out a scheme now that I've directed.
38:15I say to you, I'm going to blow this up.
38:18I'm going to blow this up.
38:29I declare such and such to be national sclerosis.
38:57the automatic engine to be useful.
38:59So here's my signature.
39:02Okay.
39:02And that'll really burn a lot of these things up.
39:06Well, Jesus said, come down.
39:08And, uh, we decided to go to Camp David tonight and maybe have a convent and hold a meeting at the helicopter or at the other place tomorrow when we feel like it.
39:20That sounds safe.
39:20Yeah.
39:21As we haven't stayed overnight here, I'm used to it.
39:23I don't want to try to do it now.
40:30And when we do call her, tell her that I had Henry Shaw word up and view of our conversation, work on some material regarding Sylvia's son that will be available.
40:41She'll see if we can get her to have a shot of Gator Parade.
41:54I'm so concerned about getting distinguished people on the court that can use my design.
42:00I thought I'd do that in September if we didn't complain.
42:04But I feel like I have to share a week's time.
42:11But it's easy.
42:13And I said, what about who?
42:15What is his name?
42:17And he said, oh, yes.
42:18I said, at least his name was on the lunches Friday.
42:21And I said, that's right.
42:23And he said, yes.
42:23And I said, what about him?
42:24He said, no, I don't understand.
42:26I said, all right.
42:27And I said, he's got to be a man that says that no woman is qualified to be in the Supreme Court.
42:35Just this one.
42:36But no woman.
42:38I can't believe he came to the main planet, but I don't know what's going to play that game around here.
42:42We've got too many assholes around here in the staff.
42:45You know, we would leave and we would come in and say, he's going to quit.
42:48Yeah, Bob Brown will quit, or this one will quit, or the other one will quit.
42:51God damn it, I'm going to quit.
42:53We cannot have that kind of business that is, a person says he's gonna quit, he should quit.
42:58Nobody's gonna walk into this office and say, well, unless I go to China, I'll quit.
43:02Now, the Moss Factor thing, I just think maybe we better let Buzz quit.
43:07What do you think?
43:08I think so.
43:09I think what's happening, I think Buzz has a social function.
43:13And it's just too goddamn bad.
43:15Buzz shouldn't do that, though.
43:16See, Henry, if you get a Jewish guy, and he'll hang you for him forever, and that's it.
43:21But I don't think we need to.
43:23Plus, it's very helpful to Henry in his Washington social life.
43:28And that's where the tie is, the parties here.
43:33keeping up with all that.
43:34But I don't know.
43:35Maybe if he needed, I don't know.
43:38What the hell would it be for if he didn't achieve the protocol?

Nixon, Kissinger & Peterson on Textile Trade Agreement and J. Edgar Hoover

AI Summary

Audio

Transcript (AI-generated)

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on October 15, 1971

Cite this conversation