On November 2, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:47 pm to 1:13 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 611-021 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Did you have a chance to tell Ziegler about that?
I did it myself.
Oh, good.
I said, well, we had a fine talk, and he is very understanding of world affairs.
We talked about bilateral world affairs, and we particularly reiterated our commitment to ANZUS and the importance of that.
I hope he'll ask us one of the pillars of peace in the Pacific.
Terrific.
So it's done.
That's better.
Much better.
Much better.
Much better.
Much better.
But he is a nice guy, isn't he?
He's very intelligent.
He's not as strong as Gordon.
Oh, no.
Oh, he's a nice guy.
And he wants to be with us.
And he stood for it.
God damn, he did.
You know, he stood up, and he stood up against all the beating from that labor fall.
Yeah.
The Australians have a good feeling, but I'm really serious that we didn't think of it.
It might be worth a pop-up or, you know, to be one friend.
You'd get a tremendous reception.
Well, I would hope so, particularly after Vietnam, anyway.
We didn't have a line.
Might be, in many ways.
The way back from China?
Well, it's... Too close?
You mean go out there just alone?
Well, it's a little hard to do it on the way back from China.
First of all, wouldn't people expect you to go there?
The other thing is you get too much rest.
The other cost of it, Australia is one hell of a long way off.
I suppose you could go there.
And you'd have to go to New Zealand if you go to Australia.
There's almost no way you can go to Australia.
Well, I don't do it, frankly, to help him.
I just like to help some people.
That's not true, for example.
He's using us for political purposes.
Oh, yeah.
He's trying to quiet his right wing by having me up there, you know.
And then he's quieting the pro-U.S. people by having me.
And he takes the hell out of us, you know.
In...
You know, the Iranians are dying to get you to come too.
It'd be quite a jaunt if you went Australia, Iran, Moscow.
Yeah, I think we just have to stay in New Zealand.
Well, New Zealand, Australia, Iran, Moscow, but that...
I don't know how to... And with the Moscow thing, you can't dig anything in on the way to Moscow.
Well...
I guess you could, you could, except, except that on the way to Moscow, we've got to go, everything has got to be up-centered for that, so we've got to go, find that, go there fresh and ready to talk.
On the way back, you could do anything.
But except doesn't the American Catholic sort of expect you to return and make some report?
Yeah.
No, I can't convince you to do it.
I really think both the Moscow and Peking trips, you just take away from it.
But also, you've got to do, you've got to remember, we have a hell of a press corps with us, and a hell of another team, and I just want to haul them around the little countries there.
Not that they have to go, but that they have to go.
So is it to be done at all?
It ought to be in June sometime.
End of June.
Just touch base with our friends.
Yeah.
Or you could do a couple weeks to it.
I think he's right.
I think you would get a tremendous, unless you do it in January before you go off on your own.
How about between, between Keating and Rostov?
Well, between Peking and Moscow, you're doing Canada.
If it weren't for those bastards... Canada is taking part.
That's a one-day trip.
I'm going to fly up, have dinner, and fly back.
I don't stay a few days.
I'm not going to do it.
There's no reason to.
And I go up, have my talk, have dinner at night, get on the plane, and fly back.
So you don't know you're actually going to get us a problem?
No.
No, in April, we're going to China at the end of February.
Yeah.
We will touch base with some people.
If you go to...
I think you can go to Australia, but I want to avoid having to go to...
But I haven't been to all of Turkey.
I just go to countries I haven't been to, and that's the basis for not going to some others.
Taiwan, actually, you just don't go to any of them, so that's it.
You can't go to Taiwan.
That's right.
But wouldn't it be bad between Peking and...
There's an organic possibility that we'll want to do a Japanese trip up to Peking.
No, they don't want to, really, until Hirohito has been here.
Secondly, I really think it's too dangerous.
I mean, not physically, Jane.
No, what it is, you mean that through the demonstrations... You just don't have to be sure what these madmen will do.
I agree.
They don't need to risk it.
No, Australia is a guaranteed success.
I think so.
Well, there are a lot of radicals down there, but I think they love Americans.
That's right.
And I don't doubt that what he said is true, that you're considered outside of this country, that you are considered the leading world statesman.
Now it turns out that this Chinese statement that I mentioned to you was a message to their party congress, to the Albanian party congress,
And it was part of a message that they were not sending a delegation, so they had to be tough.
And what they've done with the UN is actually very restrained.
They've now announced what they're doing.
They're sending a deputy foreign minister, not the foreign minister, for the general assembly, and they're making their ambassador in Ottawa the permanent delegate, so he isn't going to live down here.
We don't have Chinese running around.
Well, after you, after doing the Canadian thing, we could do it.
We could do the Canadian thing.
You understand, on Canada, though, I want to be sure of the plans.
That's a one-day trip.
And?
Goddamn it, I haven't done any other country more than one day.
Why don't they accept it?
You know what I mean.
Yeah, well, you... No, no, you might have to go run...
No, I'm not going to do two days in Canada.
No, no, but you have to stay overnight.
Huh?
You probably want to stay overnight.
Well, I might have to do that, but I am not going to be up there.
You know, what the hell?
They have radicals up there.
Oh, you won't get a good reception there.
I'll try to think of... Well, you might understand that we're not going to get the hell out.
One could arrange some goddamn visit.
Maybe Australia and New Zealand would be made to order New Zealand, isn't it?
Won't do it with that.
Oh!
They'd love it.
Love it.
Yeah.
Hello.
Quacks, I have a thing to ask you that my friend Tim told you at birth that I didn't want any of my old, my father's Ohio people not being recognized for their birthday.
Yeah.
I can't realize they're that old.
My goodness.
That's right.
Well, I've been 39 for years, but I see here that you're 54.
Oh, well, you're used to it a lot of good years ago.
And particularly from the 10th district, you can get a lot to give your wife all that necessary.
Right.
Why is that?
Sure.
That's right.
Well, if you give a little bit of me a hand, I'll be sure.
Okay.
Well, Billy, uh, put that in the back of your head.
I keep traveling around the world, and it's not a good idea, but I can justify it in terms of touching base with some of our friends after our trips.
What you could do, miss, what you could consider doing, Mr. President, is go to Hawaii to meet with Sato.
Yeah.
And hop down, well, with whoever the Japanese Prime Minister is.
That's what he said.
And then up, down, from there, from there, it's only eight hours or something.
And it wouldn't look like a special jaunt, and it would have seemed that you were talking to our friends.
Sure.
Why not do it after the Chinese trip?
Well, that's what I mean.
After the Chinese trip, it would be logical for you to talk to our Asian friends.
get Sato to come to Hawaii.
And that Rockefeller place, I mean, if you don't want to go to Honolulu... That's where I'd go.
I'd do it in the Rockefeller.
That Rockefeller place is separate.
Yeah.
It's a beautiful setting.
Yeah.
You could stay in that farmhouse or in the hotel, whichever you prefer, but...
Anyway, we could meet Sato there.
Then you could live down in Australia, New Zealand, and go on to Iran.
Oh, and come home that way.
Yeah, could go on doing that.
You'd be overflying India and Pakistan.
I've been there.
But that's a...
But then... Actually, that'd be a 10-day trip then.
Could be.
That's all right.
I'm only worried about the Johnson comparison.
It would make perfect sense to go to Australia, to go to report to Sato, to talk to our Asian allies about the meeting in PK.
That would make perfect sense.
And you go to Hawaii anyway while you are there,
No one can criticize you for meeting with the Japanese prime minister.
That's... And then you go...
I suppose the question is raised, why don't you meet with high Taiwan?
We can't do that.
Well, but we could turn somebody to Taiwan.
That's right.
But Taiwan will have quieted down by then anyway.
Well, I think the Japanese are so treacherous themselves to say how the other people did good with the train.
important than for us to make it.
We've got to have a solid deal with the Japanese and solve the complex of our... No, the Japanese, I've already talked to Alex Johnson about the Japanese, have been bugging me to get out there before the Peking trip on an unofficial visit.
And Alex Johnson is urging it too.
What they would do is arrange a business group to whom I would speak so it wouldn't be an official visit.
And... Alex Johnson, for some reason?
Strangely enough, yes.
We don't have to decide that, but...
I think I'm going to teach the Chinese a little guessing is okay.
Because of my trips to China, I have got that name in Japan now.
Well, the point is... You know, he raised two points about... First, you know, I'm RML.
I never had the confidence in him to build it.
It was that Hormel was our friend.
He was going about it.
He designed it.
He meant that we didn't take our policy.
Well, as a matter of fact, Hormel is basically a...
He's a gossip.
He talks a lot.
He talks a lot.
And the other thing is, I thought a very interesting thing.
Hormel was the one who did the major lobbying for Brant for the Nobel Peace Prize.
You see my boy, he's the kind of guy that's basically a neutralist, right?
But on the other hand, what I'm getting at here is I think this song is probably reflecting that.
When he, when he, I was really concerned about what he said about your heritage.
Well.
All I knew he was doing there was reflecting what he read in the papers.
I got that.
We know your heritage began in that.
Oh, not.
No, but, well, I don't deny this U.N. thing.
Nothing that has come here has bothered me as much as the selfish, brutal way one of our great agencies would play such a thing.
Nothing on the speaking trip is a result of it.
It's for nothing.
I know.
We can't be ourselves.
No, but I... You've got to, you know what I mean?
You've got to.
But on Belgium, I went through the list with Bush eight weeks ago.
Bush is a decent guy, but he just doesn't know the roads.
You can't blame him for that.
By next year, he'll be superb.
He's on our side.
He's decent.
I told him right away that Belgium would not vote with us.
I told him Cyprus wouldn't vote with us.
I thought the whole count was wrong.
And as it is, we came very close.
That's what makes it so hard to take.
But I don't believe my trip has been a damn good.
My trip is so hard to take.
So hard to take.
I can still say, it would be a disaster to have this vote next year.
It would be a disaster.
And also, it would not have been good not to have had this vote taken place before we went to speaking.
And inevitably, it might have been a subject for discussion.
No, that it wouldn't have been, but you would have been accused next year.
Well, I wasn't.
I'm in an arrest.
But what happened at the General Assembly next year?
It's one thing for them to blame me for having done it.
That just isn't a big political issue.
But if they could have blamed you, next year they would have blamed you.
They would have said, you made a secret deal with Joe.
Also, we have to have a final way to live with these people.
No, it couldn't succeed.
I mean, the vote couldn't succeed permanently.
Let me ask you something else.
So I just want to run by you again before we all understand.
You then will proceed on the European venture.
I have already sent the messages to Pompey to enter.
I think we ought to get that done.
I think it's solely with our allies.
How is there anything more that we could do with regard to the Japanese?
Would it be well to let them that I would like to meet Sachu or will he still be in office next March?
You see, my problem is what we can tell the Japanese is two things.
If I go out there early December or early January, which is what they're really dying for, their ambassador has been in four times, and Sato has written me a handwritten letter, and that you will meet with him after the meeting, I think the only trouble is they'll let it out.
What was that again?
It is the Chinese.
Yeah.
And we won't talk.
But I think you should plan it.
I know.
Then don't tell him.
I understand what you're telling him.
Now, on the, on your going out there, why don't you tell Johnson what the state wants you to do?
It's okay.
Well, I'm not sure he's told it to Bill yet, and I'm sure that Bill will be mad if I, although there aren't many headlines in going to Japan.
Just say, just say that, look, Alex, if you think it's a good idea that you get in.
You're not pressing with it that way.
I am not pressing it.
I know you're not.
I don't like the fact...
I know.
I mean, what you can say.
Look, I don't know.
I mean, for me it's come see, come saw.
But if you feel it would be helpful, you'll go.
If I say it's okay, you'll go.
But they ought to make the judgment.
I don't want them, you to go and have them pissed off.
That's my point.
No, I can't.
I think early January would be better than early December.
They told me that you were a bar about 35 years ago.
So I don't know, let's see, 44, right?
You can't be that old.
I remember you were a young boy, right?
That's right.
Right.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to know, we really appreciated your support, too.
You're our honor.
But we call our name list, and I know it's sometimes hard to support the administration, but we're glad we got one of my own own business.
Okay.
Well, we appreciate it.
Right, right.
I know it hasn't, you've been very responsible about it, but when we get further along, I think you, if we do it, I think two of you will see that there's more, far more there than you see high.
You know what I mean?
Right.
Good.
I know that.
Yeah.
Fine.
Fine.
Good talk.
I think we've got to, in looking at the old Chinese Soviet game here, the reactions of this little ball are worth noting.
in terms of he's probably as typical of somebody that really wants to leave with the United States as anybody possibly could be.
He wants to be understood as he has great concerns about it naturally.
But it's like our right wing here.
Those that are not supporting us, those that are not opposing us,
Yeah.
No.
I'm not calling you or urging you to do anything like this lady was saying, which I'm not going to be doing.
But the purpose, the purpose is, oh yes, then leader me.
But I just wanted to know, I remember when I left the 40s, that I thought, boy, that's really the last.
So I drove here last year in the 40s, 49 years of age.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
Good.
That's right.
No, but you're only 49, so you're still under 150, boy.
I've got you a feeling.
That's why I'm here.
Yeah, well, you've got a great job while you're doing this.
Bye.
Bye.
Well, I think that we need to adjust all these things.
But it certainly is a problem.
It just...
reassured him.
I think he understands.
Well, now, I didn't think you had any problems with him, Mr. President.
No, no, I didn't.
I think he is constantly getting it from others.
But it's terribly important for him to have heard it from you.
Yeah, I think he's getting it from the Japanese.
And he's getting it from the States.
We have a lousy ambassador there who's out.
He's in the foreign service.
Right.
So he doesn't really ever hear a sophisticated explanation which you gave him today.
And I think it was a good ending there, too.
But I think we, I don't know.
We ought to concentrate now for a few months also on some of our allies.
That's right.
Talking to them.
Writing to them.
Reassuring them.
I think that writing to them is not a bad idea.
You know, these dolls are a prospect getting a letter from somebody.
They really are.
Oh, we can figure a little bit more out of that thing I suggested.
That's my reason to write our friends around.
the world.
We get out quite a few letters, Mr. President, in a month where we don't get three or four.
But I'll...
I think he's in this kind of a context where he thinks it's confidential.
And so that gives us all some confidence.
Like, I think we were absolutely right in your suggestion that someone else would be at the main Vietnam plans.
Oh, yeah.
That was... Now he knows he's got something that nobody else has.
And he can go home and say he
and say he discussed it fully with you.
Right.
I'll let you sit with Mrs. Connolly, if you'll keep up.
And if you want to help me, she wants to help.
For this one, you've got to have the record, because she's trying to set you up as the man who drove you into war.
Part of the record for what you lost.
How do I avoid that?
Well, that's what I'm talking about.
Well, I keep telling you, Senator, I leave no doubt about your attitude.
Yeah.
Well, I have one last chance to tell you about the field plan.
You have to go on this program with something which you then didn't keep.
Which?
When did I do that?
No, you never did it, but that's what they did about Rajat.
Who was Rajat?
He was so nice to this foreign minister.
And as soon as the foreign minister left, he then said Rajat tricked him.
About what?
Oh, about our general attitude.
For what?
Towards Pakistan.
Do you remember when that idiot bastard was sitting over there?
And you and I, we gave him 80 million extra dollars.
And, well, that's exactly, I talked to him pretty damn much.
I don't know if you remember, but I said, I said, how much have these Europeans done?
I said, well, they put up a bunch of videos, and I do this, and I do this, and I do this, and I do this, and I do this, and I do this, and I do this.
My opposite mother, they call her Dr. Frank, who is probably a communist.
And, well, I have, I will be very blunt and tell her what she can and what she cannot expect from us.
What you can expect from us is how the rest of it is, period.
And we give our general assistance to political evolution, but we will not participate in, in effect, correcting the whole thing.
What they now say is they must negotiate with Muthri.
Well, hell, they're trying him for treason.
We are lucky that we got them, Mahatma, Shah, and that they promised us not to execute him.
Okay?