Conversation 614-012

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Well, how are you?

I just couldn't go out with you here again.

I came to Mexico, I understand.

All right, well, I'm glad to have you here.

Why don't we sit over here, Mr. Prime Minister?

I want to take a picture.

Mr. Prime Minister, you're here.

Yes, I was there a few minutes ago.

How are you doing?

We got you.

Well, you had that trip so far.

Yeah, you made the trip.

Thank you.

Yeah, they got Northwestern on it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

You liked it there, didn't you?

It made sense.

It took me two years.

No, no, no.

I had there a couple times.

I had two different years.

I didn't know if I was going to be there or not.

No, no, no.

Close your mouth, Mark.

Hold it.

I did.

Oh

Oh, well, I see you.

Yes.

I want to tell you first of all how grateful we are for your support.

I know it's hard.

But we appreciate the fact that you personally took a very difficult decision and went along with us.

And we appreciate that kind of friendship.

And we now, of course, will accept the vote and live with the situation and go on from here.

We remember him.

We remember our friends.

Particularly, as I had just seen the President of Mexico, he was with us too, you know.

It was hard for him.

I talked to him on the phone at the time.

And the President of Mexico has a rather non-aligned status.

And I talked to him, and he was with us.

So I was very happy.

He was a great human being.

He's a great man.

He's a great leader.

He's an outstanding man.

I think he's going to be one of the great presidents of the Americas.

How about that coffee from Ghana?

I'm so sad.

It better be.

Yeah, it is.

Her coat was in the hat.

Oh, those were the comics.

No, thank you.

It must have been.

Yeah, it must have been.

Her coat was in the hat.

Well, I, uh, you know what you see, when I, when I go to, you know, go there to that inauguration, I couldn't have done it.

We had a certain special feeling because President Talbert was vice president.

When I was vice president, he wrote me personally and said, I want you to come.

Well, I couldn't because it's a time of our, as you know, we have our state of the union and everything budgeted and everything.

So I had to be here.

So I said, I spoke to her about it one night.

She said, oh, I said, fine.

She's been to and everything.

And she said, if I get that far, maybe I ought to go someplace else.

But the only problem that she had raised to the department, she was whether it looked, you know, if there would be a man or something,

or there could be a reason there.

But even then, it's very close, isn't it?

She has such pleasant memories of that.

It was our first African country, which of course is also important.

All right, and, uh, Al, remember, I told you at the time to check to see if, of course, we didn't want to be looking by ourselves, but just because, uh, there's a letter out here saying he's going to want to contact Tom and put it to me, and, you know, that's right.

And it's been over your exact secrets.

Now, come on.

Come on.

If you would like her to come, I think that we could arrange to protect her schedule so she could drop in there for a couple of days.

We don't want to impose on you.

We want your time and so forth.

And she could go and see how this happens.

Maybe what she's going to do while she is in, again, I wrote the first person to attend the inauguration, but what she likes to do is to visit the schools,

and maybe a hospital, and children.

Let's see how women would be interested in that.

You could.

Would you like her to come?

Yes.

If you... Well, let me say that I'll race with her.

She could, it wouldn't do anything to me, I'm sure.

If she's in my area, she could look down to, yeah, yeah.

And then we can explore this.

Yeah, well, so we have the highest level of interest there, right?

And so everybody knows we're meeting today.

And she might, I think she would like to go down.

just because, you know, we're all kind of safe.

Also, I want her to go to countries where we feel that we have good friends.

Well, we have good friends, let me say.

People of Oregon, San Francisco, is something to determine.

But, the point is that we do have a solution for you and your country.

It's very special.

And we just want to be, and I think she'd kind of like to do it.

Can I bring my daughter with me?

Julie has an arm.

She wants to go very much.

She's never been there.

She studied at Smith College.

Well, let me say, if you want to talk, if you want to explore the situation, and of course talk to the ambassador out here.

It would not get to be all right with you then to come right after the interrogy, but the interrogy is second.

And she could come on down there and then come on back.

Fine.

Thank you.

We can have a seat down at the table.

You tell your master as we work out this thing.

And if we work it out, we'll see if we've got an invitation from the highest level.

But tell me, uh, tell me how you...

I'm very grateful to you for giving me this chance.

I know you're very busy.

Well, it's been two days since I saw you.

So, uh, I asked to see you for maybe two reasons.

To know your interest in Ghana.

I'd like to tell you our situation and the way in which we would like your...

And I'll go straight to the subject.

First of all, I promise about how it's your as-you-know-it heritage that I brought it from Crimea, not from Abyssinia, but it's acting as a big constraint on our development.

When I did a cabinet reshuffle a few months ago, I took over funding myself, and this gave me an opportunity of looking into this question a bit.

But I found that one aspect of it had not been sufficiently emphasized, namely the short term, where the groomer found that he had no money.

He then got into this practice of 188 credits.

they're already not paying for their vanity days after.

And they have accumulated all that because payment is very much tied up with our foreign exchange ends and our cocoa and burial.

We have not been able to pay.

So we have an accumulation of that.

We have continued the system of vanity day credits, which is a very expensive way of trading.

because it involves up to 10-15% extra rental insurances, and then there have been the profits and dividends of foreign companies, which we have not been able to allow them to repatriate because we haven't had foreign exchange.

And this, by calculations to come up to date, would mean about $300 million.

And then the medium-term data is what all this reset data has been about.

I'm asking this to be looked at, and I'm asking our creditors to reset both this short term, to look at this short term, and I'd like to meet him to say, now this short term has now accumulated so much that it acts as a constraint on our development.

And I would like some arrangement whereby a consortium of friendly governments would arrange to have this taken care of and that to refinance for a long-term basis.

What has happened with regards to medium-term?

The National Racing Council asked for recently, in 1968 and 69, we asked for it in 1970.

I think fundamentally the mistake that has been made has been to look at it as a short-term thing.

So, at the last recently, in 1970, Greg said, what you have to pay between 71 and 72 will relieve your 50% of that.

It was more than you paid 50%, but you still have to pay an interest on the portfolio.

So that we have, in fact, increased this.

And I have this note in terms of we are taking very bold measures to deal with our situation.

Our emphasis is on improving agriculture and producing more food.

We want, for example, within the next three years, to be able to stop importing rice.

You'll be helping us with ways

We are a rural community, rural communities that have, in fact, sustained that.

Basically, things like drinking water, health services are lacking.

We're making roads to the villages.

And this is self-help.

Because our children's country, we haven't got the money.

We've got to do these things for ourselves.

Now, the way this has been accepted, because this last case, I was pleased about 5,000 college students said they were prepared to join the national service corps.

to go out to the villages and work.

And within that time, we could only provide for 3,000 of them.

They spent their vacations, some of them living in tents and having to go to schools to have a drink in the market.

So, we are facing the situation.

Also, we're taking rather serious measures without trade.

We have improved the HR.

It's much bigger than we all say.

It's very selective.

25%, 45%, even 75% in some cases, in an effort to control imports.

We have also to be able to attract investment.

And we have taken some rather serious measures for ETH.

It's all has had an effect because of increasing prices.

First, because the surcharges we have in protest have been far too strong.

Secondly, because many of the things we want for increasing our economic growth have an importance for foreign goods, equipment, and so on that we have to bring.

And those are the players that raise great prices, are the prices of Canada.

But I think we can show

that we are prepared to take unpopular measures.

Unfortunately, we're not really able to contain them.

But the immediate thing, why I'm all tired, I must kind of talk with you and talk with Heath, is that there is a political side to this.

As you know, we are trying very hard to establish a democratic government in Canada.

We think it's important for the whole of Africa.

I think we can claim that to be

Perhaps one country that is really maintaining the normal democratic institutions and allowing freedom of association, speech about hostile threats and so on to England.

But we must show that it is possible to have a stable democratic government and economic growth.

And for economic growth, we must be able to have a growth of 4-5% if it is to be meaningful.

because we have a high rate of unemployment, about 25%.

I used to say, what America would do, they couldn't treat 5% of the working population unemployed.

Oh, boy.

Do you know our country today, George?

Six plus is going to go tomorrow.

It's going to go below 6.5 by 8.

Even then, people will scream.

So this is our problem.

Where is the area?

Is this what the international funds are?

Where can we play a role?

I would like the U.S. to do first.

We have to create international confidence, and this is where we would like help.

With the International Monetary Fund, we want a standby credit.

This will not meet our needs, but it will be an expression of faith in what we're trying to do.

Thank you.

I'm credited by the... No, I'm not calling at all when he returns, but I consider this important.

We have talked with him.

Yeah, but I'm the usual man, and I wanted to know that you can't go for everybody, but I want to eat.

Come on.

There.

Okay.

Today, we went both a time and a well back time to help us with drawing up our medium-term development plan.

Right.

So that they can back us when we read our credits.

Right.

Because I want to be able to say to them, this is our plan.

It's been backed by .

So we've requested that there's a mission going to Canada.

I've asked them, in addition to their normal things, to help us with, to look at the video .

I can see this.

I'll have to reschedule.

What I want you to do here, I want Connelly and Kissinger to meet with me.

the other day here, and said that there are some countries, you know, where we've got some special problems that, naturally, you know, this is, we have to be very skillful and say nothing publicly, because then everybody would be in here saying, what are we going to do?

But in this instance, we can, on a case-by-case basis, do some things.

And I think McNamara would be, do you agree?

Yes, sir.

And he is prepared for that.

And McNamara knows that I will be expressing interest.

And I want to go ahead and do a discussion here on our side, which will be as the President and Connolly, the Trader's side, Connolly has our vote in the bench.

I think that McNamara will be considered very important.

Right, sir.

The second aspect of this is a meeting of our directors to agree to

A reached pedigree which would give us a long-term basis on which to get our plant to work, even taking terms of two years or less arrangement, doesn't help us.

We want something on the intervening plants.

A period, a period, a period, a period within which our plants will begin to bear fruit.

that we need to work.

So we have to be a great person.

I take my interest in this when I talk to Mr. Heath.

I think he is prepared to get two meetings going.

First of all, a meeting to consider the short-term debt, where we would like to lead a consulting of private banks and governments to enable us to pay the

the 300 million that we have so that we can put our trade on a normal basis.

And then, at another meeting, we might come closer together, where we can look at the medium-term gains and the gain-getter long-term.

Now, who would your creditors include in the white-bottom part?

In short terms, foreign countries, we owe the Great Britain, and then West Germany, France, Japan.

Are we going to do it?

OK. That will help.

I mean, when I say will help, will you say he dedicated himself to it?

He did.

In fact, he's prepared to make contact with the other people.

Do you have any idea on how you built into this, on what are the prospects we have?

Well, I would say we all go after the effort to bridge.

Well, he had this thing, you know, I felt so strongly at the time that Sahara came in.

It was somewhat like you, Sahara came in, and Sacarno, of course, had left a pretty rough legacy.

He was a great man anyways, and he broke the country.

Now, economically, you're in here, and you grew up.

He served his purpose at a certain time.

But economically, he was a disaster for the country.

So that's where he gets down, because we've got to have this government succeed.

And I want to, I mean, to the extent that we can help, we work with the British and the rest of the Ghanaian province.

And so you have our commitment.

And he then said, well, I say, that's our commitment.

Now, what will happen?

I don't know if he's mad or cold-eyed, but I think we can help some of you.

Yes, sir, I think we can.

I know the prime minister knows what we have.

Some problems right now here domestically.

That's it for the editor.

Congressional had to.

Well, yes, I know, but Congress, on the other hand, looks with more favor on our friends.

Yes, sir.

You know?

that all their problems, they recognize that John is a strong friend of the world, but if you have to choose, you try to go with him.

As simple as that.

It doesn't mean you mistreat others, but you've got to treat your friends right.

And as we've been talking, thank you.

I said, I don't know.

I can't do this all the time.

I had a question.

I said, when I, the way it stands, when I talk to people, I can't.

And I can't go down there.

I can't do this.

You were talking about her?

I did say that when you go down there.

Oh, yeah.

Just call Ambrose.

You can pop over here.

All right.

If she's free from that, she's giving people hearts.

These things, they're all kind of tough things.

But you see, here's the problem.

This is a small country.

Your population is from seven to eight.

I was going to say seven.

Seven to eight million.

I remember the time I was there.

I believe you showed me how you grew up.

The time I was there was three and a half.

Tell them.

I thought it too, in French, that you're concerned about the cocoa grain.

We, uh, that's a very tough, you know, we've got a number of these things, but I, I, and I'm not an expert on it, but I've asked my, uh, could I suggest this, I wonder if the Prime Minister has the time, if he could have a little chat with Peter Schimel, he's here on set, because we haven't met, but who,

I don't have a new office.

We have Mr. Peterson as my assistant for financial and economic affairs.

And he's somewhat of an expert young man in this field.

And maybe, would you have time that you could spend 20 times, 30 minutes a day?

Perhaps this evening.

Maybe tomorrow morning.

Well, then, maybe we finish.

Maybe 10 minutes, so that he can

if you would get to that, but explain what was the horrible thing is, because I read the briefing paper on it, Al, and as I see it, I said, Rob, this isn't what it is.

It's a recipe.

It's not a recipe.

Oh.

How about that?

I'm shaking hands with you.

Let me stay on that for a minute.

I hope you can come.

And if she does, I can assure you that she will carry it, even though she's not an Arab person, but she has been in this country.

I think we can, should we can have her go to another base, you know, and say, well, why don't you go over to, you know, a lot of other

The reason is it's personal.

She was there.

Do you think we could separate Donna after the reason that we were there for the first time?

You know how it is, if you get to 30 countries and your question is, would have gone much further by yourself.

But I think this could be done.

And not that this is, this wouldn't be done.

I mean, this is her birth and she left.

But I think she left the building.

I think she left the building.

We just, what we, how do you feel, though, generally, I'm not sure about your, your hospitality, your people, is it good?

I think, I think anything was good.

Despite the unemployment, they're not discouraged, huh?

They are not discouraged.

Are they going to give up on democracy?

I don't think so.

You see, you're, you're on your show, I've been speaking quite candidly.

Many of your neighbors, uh,

have found that that way is a difficult way.

It is, and by looking across the Atlantic to Latin America, democracy is the exception other than the rules, you know.

I mean, it's there, because it's a hard system to run.

Now, in your case, that's one of the reasons, you know, I want you to succeed.

I personally want you to succeed.

We all do.

And for that reason, I think if we could

I can see that people are not going to vote again, or they're not going to stay in the system if they're unemployed.

That's right.

If I could go out and see any developments, we're able to do nothing.

Then you don't have trouble.

This is why it's so important for us to have a banking company.

aid and technical treatment is also continuing because we are using it.

I think the way in which it is meant to be used, that is, to help us to stand on our own feet, and this is how we are using it.

There is another development, uh, where we can have, like, two pairs of gloves in the room.

Right.

In the bigger West African context, I'm not talking in public text, I'm very sure, but I can see the necessity for greater cooperation in West Africa and greater stability.

And this is what we're doing.

We are very close to the Ivory Coast.

We have a very big commission on cooperation.

They're doing pretty well, aren't they?

Of course, they have some advantages with their resources.

They have quite a lot of investment from us.

I see.

And we're close to them.

We're close to them.

I remember at the time you were sort of this way.

No, no, I'm very friendly with the President.

I've never had any kind of fantasy.

I think he's a very wise man.

He has to be sufficiently appreciative.

But the people seem to like you.

They like me.

I was there in Uruguay.

That made a lot of difference today.

Uh-huh.

Good.

And he's prepared to cooperate with us.

What is the situation with regard to others?

What about Nigeria?

That's a special problem.

We have so much in common.

You're close to them, aren't you?

I'm personally very close.

We are not as close as I would like us to be.

We have to wait until they have sorted out their own problems.

But with Mali, Niger and Malta, we have established bilateral economic relations with the Federal Reserve Commission.

I want us to improve our trade and cooperation.

Two weeks ago, I paid a visit to India and also to Mali.

And the reception was very warm, very cordial, not just from the government, but from the people.

And we must improve our trade arrangements.

And I, the fund, have a commission now at the request of the hotel that I am going to help us, help us sort out

My aim is to help to develop an economic community of West Africa and also help to get some stability because I'm not sure whether China

My question, I will not try to introduce a disruptive answer.

But in troubled waters, I know.

Sir, but I'm happy at this development with acceptance almost a few years ago from Ghana.

I'm supposed to come to realize this.

Let me say one thing to you.

I know you're...

Excuse me, Mr. President.

You know he's out of the house for a couple of hours.

I'm going to go out and do that.

I'm going to have the chance.

Let me say that our business to China and the Soviet Union, you can be sure, will not make the problems more difficult.

Naturally, our talks will be bilateral primarily.

But I believe that we can exert far better restraining influence if we are in relatively close consultation with such countries rather than standing head-offs.

How do you feel about them?

Is there anything to worry about?

No, they don't get told.

I just told that to Mr. County, you know, they just don't much care about the Chinese for obvious reasons.

But I said, look, we can stand off aside there and let China grow and grow in isolation and in power.

Or we can be talking to them non-radio, but not necessarily talking to them.

And I think it's better to talk to them.

I think that's wise.

You have relations with other African people.

You could talk, that's what I mean.

I mean, that's what I meant.

I mean, relations, you discuss.

Well, they're a fact.

They exist.

They're there.

So, between going...

I think it's very wise.

This business of sort of taking their feet and having no...

I think that when Dr. Kissinger and Bill Rodgers, who both of them, they said you were going to be passing through, I said, I just don't think that we're going to be able to talk with you.

I think you're, as I said, we just want you to succeed.

We want you to succeed.

We can't help it.

And whatever you, whatever we can, we will help with our limitations.

And, uh, and, and, naturally, you, you, you've got your contact with the state.

But what you have, I want you to know, Mr. Chairman, you've got something that you feel needs to come to you directly.

Have your ambassador give, take, you know, take a call.

And, uh, he handles these African things, and he, he brings persons

I'm here for it.

Because you know how strong that actor, I told you, let's help these people now, if we, these people, let's help these people on these specific things, if we can.

And if Connolly didn't, Connolly did that one in 15.

Let's get on the core, the lower levels, Volker and that group, you see.

Because you've got the, I haven't, you've got the,

I thought at least I used to be in a table about approval, I think, before I became president.

I had so much help.

I'll let you, I'll let you see.

On this trip, on this trip, you can't be there.

Please, out of your head, out of your, all over your head, stay alone.

I'd like to see them, too.

Now, uh, let me, let me do that.

I'll, I'll, uh, I'll have to meet you.

I'll have to meet you.

I'll have to

You, uh, I didn't have the, the tack, the, uh, on your, uh, we talked before.

Uh, you, I'm sure you had the four, the four of them.

Two boys and two girls.

I want to get you to call the practice and take them home to them.

That's wonderful.

You know the boy, huh?

You know the boy?

That's great, that's great.

Well, you, uh, it's wonderful to see the drumming.

My daughter's now are both married, as you know.

The older we are, the younger she is.

Yeah.

I've got more to say about you, that's fine.

And, oh, here he is.

Come on, take a picture of each other.

How are you?

Good to see you.

Good to see you again.

Let's get a picture, if we can, of the Prime Minister, the group of us.

If you'd like to, you can send your copy over here to the Prime Minister.

And on the right, this is our Chief Executive Officer.

You can get that in here.

That's your move, please.

We gave you a lovely day, didn't we?

Yes, we did.

Have you been to Mexico City before?

I have, yes.

Did you?

At the University?

At the Navy.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Well, you'll like Mr. Barrett.

He's really a strong man, but he's also very candid.

He's very open-minded.

He's positive.

And he just walked out.

He did not have a hard time.

I just didn't feel like it.

Do you want to put an informant in there?

Which I do.

I was doing a good plan already the other night.

The speaker turned around, and I was like, yes, sir.

He goes, what?

Well, he's down in here.

I want you to say a word to him.

Come on over.

We've been talking about the...

The Prime Minister has invited us next time.

Let's go talk to him.

When she goes over to the city, my old friend, Mr. Topper, gets run in, and she's, unfortunately, she's over changing hands at 2,000.

But I, the Prime Minister said that I don't want to talk to you about it.

But I'm very much for it if she can, because I think that if she can, if she has an excuse to say as far as to go there, the question she's doing

July 3rd, for any reason, the kids used to go there for old time's sake, having been there before, and I'd like for her to see it and give me a report on how they could leave.

Well, they still can't.

I can't.

But that's the thing.

I'll never forget that night.

You know, I love that.

All the excitement.

But it was good fun.

I was hurt.

I mean, I was an ardent proud man.

They signed it and advanced and... You were there with him at that time?

Were you?

Or were you out at that time?

You were!

Tell me, I don't know what happened to him on that day.

There was a big tall pole you assigned to me.

He had never been to our country, who was my age at that time.

He was such a nice man.

I can't remember his name.

And I imagine he was still in the Foreign Service, a big tall fellow.

He was just out of school.

Tall, fine-looking man.

He's about six, one or two.

and let me know about good things.

He wrote me years later, four or five years later, he wrote that he was still a gunman.

But I believe that Mr. Dixon and I thought he was, we were very fond of him.

He was around, you know, you and I.

He's been an athlete, too.

He was very athletic at all.

Well, as much for that.

We were talking about, in addition to the subject, as the Prime Minister brought up, that we were going to try to be helpful

And, uh, and she asked her to, I mean, she'll tell you, you know, Dr. Kahn and the others, and Steve, and a lot of other people.

But we also, I, I anticipated, too, my, how we're going to let Coco and I agree, and it is so complex that I've asked Peterson to drop over here so that you can have an opportunity to meet him.

And I'm going to assign him to look into the situation to see if there's, see what the problem is, you know.

It's a, uh, because he would probably be really... Don is, are you the biggest local producer here?

Yeah.

Come in, Steve.

Thank you.

He's prime minister.

No, no.

He's the board minister.

He's the ambassador.

The purpose of this is very briefly, but Paul, are there, if you're working on high, high, the national cocoa agreement.

Ghana is the biggest cocoa producer in the world.

There is a, the question is, is the agreement not being renegotiated, or is what is...

Well, it's a special problem, you know.

I mean, we have more Marcovo drinkers than growers here.

So, but nevertheless, Ghana has some, and they believe it's, I mean, enormous economic problems, which were inherited in the previous government.

About $300 billion in debt, which McNamara and us, and others, and of course, we on the private side, or the government side, have been working on it.

The COCO agreement is something that has been sort of on the back burner, whether there's any, what are the steps we can get, but I want you personally, if you will, in addition to others, to look into it.

I would hear, if you would like, I would talk to the ambassador or to the board of ministers of any kind.

Oh, yes, I see.

Well, that would surely be...

When do you leave?

Do you spend some time now?

I'll just make a call.

I'm not necessarily working on surcharging at the moment, so... Our Canadian friends particularly, they're surcharging.

Yeah.

But I didn't necessarily need to go to Mexico.

There's some talk there.

And, uh... Also, the, uh...

You might mention, Mr. Foreign Minister, while you're at it, just cover with him briefly the questions that we have about the, uh, your old debt problem, you know, the rescheduling, the short-term.

He's been here with all this.

He is.

He's been here.

You can tell him on Tuesday that he's seen the whole picture because then we will be able to, uh, to, uh,

to have sort of a common line here, because I don't think you, I don't think the other can be discussed without, I'm not suggesting by all this that we can do something on the Kogel thing at this point, or when, but I do know this, and I think that I'm aware of what I just told Kate, that Donna has been a staunch friend.

They are trying to make democracy work under very difficult circumstances, circumstances that this government inherited from its predecessors.

We want them to succeed.

What they really want to do is a rescheduling of their debt.

Just as Indonesia got their debt rescheduled after Sukarno.

That kind of thing can happen.

They've had some assurances that he will help.

He, Britain, is their biggest creditor on the government-to-government side.

I imagine that you've got to get the world back.

They're all involved in the thing.

So just get him a brief rundown, if you will, a little on the cocoa thing.

And he gets it quickly so we can deal with these emergencies all day long.

And then talk to Hazel a little as well.

I just want you to know that our feeling is that when Conley gets back, you should throw him in.

Because if we can't help, we want to help.

That's where we stand.

It isn't one of those things where we're just looking at him.

Because this government must survive.

Basically, this country must survive.

You ever been there?

No, I've never been there.

You've never been there?

No, I've never been there.

It's not gross.

When I was there, I remember, I had populations of about 4 million in 1957, and today it's 8 million.

I mean, that's 37 million.

That's the way it is.

The population goes up, so we need more jobs and all that sort of thing.