Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 617 › Conversation 617-016

Nixon, Rumsfeld & Bull on Pay Board and Economic Policy

Friday, November 12, 1971 · 4:26 PM–4:30 PM ET · Oval Office ·3 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Rumsfeld, Donald H.; Bull, Stephen B.Conversation617-016 onTape 617 (tape position 02:13:07–02:16:33)StartFriday, November 12, 1971 at 4:26 PMEndFriday, November 12, 1971 at 4:30 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 617-016 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Donald Rumsfeld met to discuss the administration's strategic management of the Pay Board, specifically addressing the contentious issue of wage retroactivity. They reviewed the President's recent interactions with Congress, including feedback from Clark MacGregor, and coordinated upcoming personnel meetings involving key cabinet members and foreign diplomats. The conversation centered on maintaining a firm stance regarding economic policy and ensuring that administration representatives on the Pay Board continued to exert influence to achieve desired outcomes.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Walk out there.

I want you to walk out there.

For me, too.

I talked about it Friday night, but did you all see those two people sitting there?

Maybe it'll make us lose the goddamn picture.

I think so.

I was going to put it right to them.

They knew it.

But there was no gun.

I'm glad you took the hard line, rather than trying to write something down.

Take it back now.

I agree.

I think that you're right.

Yes, sir.

I think it's just right.

And, uh, from the way Clark and you spoke about it, it sounds to me like it's just what they needed right now.

We will have to let the McCracken slide, as we're right with the, uh, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

And I want to end this every time.

And I don't blame you for that going any further.

I know.

That's the way I see it.

And I deal with them all the time.

I'm confident.

I was confident.

I've got the report right up to you.

You go there every Friday.

All right.

So do you want to see this man sulk and cunt as far as Secretary Plank's standings with Henry now?

Yeah.

Just bring him in.

Yeah.

Sure.

We'll have the...

Yes.

All right.

Just stay here.

All right.

Anyway...

We've been working on that, you know, Colson.

Oh, Colson has hung anybody's property.

But both of them, all of a sudden, both of them know.

I didn't want to do it, but I just knew.

I know that.

You can't break the contract.

Don't you agree?

These guys feel very strongly.

Are you with us?

Well, listen, they want to roll out of the thing.

Are your neighbors happy?

With retroactivity?

They know we gave good faith that we turned two business members around.

They know damn well we turned two business members around.

Eight to seven.

So now, it depends on how it actually comes out.

We've got to keep pushing.

These guys are convinced that it's unfair to the rest of the people.

And they are representing us.

On the other hand, what I'm getting at is, are they going to put out an order making them not recognize that they're debating the model?

And we're still about to lose, Senator.

Absolutely.

Do you agree?

Ideally, yes, sir.

Or do you think you've got to lose on that?

I agree.

NARA Description

On November 12, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:26 pm and 4:30 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 617-016 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 617-16

Date: November 15, 1971
Time: Unknown between 4:26 pm and 4:30 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Donald H. Rumsfeld.
[The recording begins at an unknown time while the meeting is in progress]

     Unknown event
                                               23

                            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF

                                      Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. 10/06)



     The President's previous meeting with Congressmen
          -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]
          -The President compared to the Congress
          -Statement by the President and Clark MacGregor
Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 4:26 pm.

     The President's schedule
          -Paul W. McCracken
          -John A. Volpe
          -Elliot L. Richardson
          -Maurice H. Stans
          -William P. Rogers
                -Stans
                -Henry A. Kissinger

Bull left at an unknown time before 4:30 pm.

     National economy
          -Pay Board
                -The President's conversation with George H. Boldt
                     -Retroactivity

Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 4:26 pm.

     The President's schedule
          -Sultan Mohammad Khan
                -Kissinger

Bull left at an unknown time before 4:30 pm.

     National economy
          -Pay Board
                -Charles W. Colson
                -Boldt
                -Retroactivity
                     -Vote
                     -Possible order
                     -Arnold R. Weber

Rumsfeld left at 4:30 pm.
                                           24

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF

                                   Tape Subject Log
                                     (rev. 10/06)

Also recorded on November 12, 1971

617-001 3:59 PM · 48 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:59 pm and 4:02 pm.
617-002 3:59 PM · 17 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:59 pm and 4:02 pm.
617-003 4:02 PM · 5 sec — unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:02 pm and 4:29 pm.
617-004 4:02 PM · 13 sec — United States Secret Service agents met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:02 pm and 4:29 pm.
617-005 4:29 PM · 26 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Henry A. Kissinger, Clark MacGregor, and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:29 pm and 4:54 pm.
617-017 4:31 PM · 10 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Sultan Mohammad Khan, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:31 pm to 4:39 pm.
617-018 4:41 PM · 1 hr 15 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Elliot L. Richardson, John D. Ehrlichman, Stephen B. Bull, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., unknown person(s), and Oliver F. ("Ollie") Atkins met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:41 pm to 5:55 pm.
617-006 4:54 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:54 pm and 4:55 pm.

All 93 conversations from November 12, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 617-016, November 12, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/617-016 (accessed September 18, 2026).