Conversation 619-028

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I'm afraid you're not doing so well.

What's the deal?

A little what?

Well, but...

It's been seven years.

It's funny.

Well, but I'm still in pain a lot.

I can look at them, but they're not quite that good.

They tested it today and it didn't help at all.

How does food agree with you?

Did things start to taste good yet?

Yes, it doesn't reasonably.

That's the last thing.

That's very important, even though you'll have a client and your food won't taste good.

I ate it when I didn't want it and then it feels so bloated, too, because I thought I had to eat it.

I just wanted to tell you that Julie would be a great help in Cleveland, too.

She would.

She's just, uh...

I saw that, and I didn't think that was very wise, because she can handle herself with anyone, and she's perfect.

And Deb told me that, uh, last week she went over to that Norm D.

Republican.

Oh, yes.

He said she was just absolutely fabulous.

You know, those people are so sensitive anyway.

And he said she just charmed them all.

Hello?

Are you still up?

Have you had lunch yet?

Oh, yes, yes.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I can't get... What are you going to do then, Senator?

Where are you going to be?

Will you be back tonight?

7.20?

Oh, that's fine.

We'll wait.

We'll eat meat later.

What does she want to do?

Will you be back?

Do you want to have dinner?

We'll wait for you.

7.20, you'll be back ready to eat.

Fine.

I'm going to get the piggies a little later about the show.

What are you eating now?

Oh, yeah, that's all right, fine.

Oh, that line, how did the Cleveland thing went well, huh?

Yeah, yeah.

And last night, I told you it was nice.

Good, great.

Well, I'm so glad.

out here that came from where we had a secret, you know, marked over me, and I give those to you.

Yeah, I got a memo from Butterfield yesterday, saying that you told me that there's more deputy and other secretaries and other kind of cabinet people, and you and Hoffman had talked and, you know,

Yeah, that was a month ago.

And I know what we've not done today, so... No, really, there's got to be something.

There must be something wrong.

Maybe Bob did it.

I don't know, but I haven't talked about this.

The President reiterated to me this point.

Two points he had made back in September.

I believe while we were in Texas, they were, one, to be certain that Chuck and I were supposed to sit down together and review the mid-issue, mid-issue, whatever it was.

That was a long time ago.

You do that.

You go over those things.

I don't sit down to war with him.

I ask for his suggestion.

Because his suggestions have to be checked out carefully.

They invite some people who should not be invited.

They invite somebody who's been in Florida talking against you.

They don't check their people.

So what I do, I just don't take them on.

I don't know if they can't.

They want to get somebody uninvited, and you can't invite people and then uninvite them.

Absolutely, that's right.

and that we want to be absolutely sure that we are taking full advantage politically of this and other dangers which follow.

And I think we are.

Then the other one was too, I still think we are leaving, we are having the cast members too often.

That I have said.

Well, but we cut it down.

As of yesterday, I had it cut down to three and two more.

Let's be sure to get a good representation of Deputy and Undersecretary and other sub-captain people as well.

They just felt we had been good, and as you had said, not bad.

We cut it down.

We covered that last time.

I know.

I think this memorandum can be yesterday.

Well, we dated it for 15.

Well, that must be from months ago, because you've already went through the death.

I'll tell you how that all arose.

That arose because of that fall of Sicily.

I don't remember.

And he was a dead rock then, too.

Do you remember?

We braved it with you then, and that was it.

Well, this is Alex right here, and I'm saying you reiterated this opinion.

And I'm just not going to take notes from Alex about anything.

Because he doesn't, he really doesn't know from his head to toe and ground what sinners are about.

And we really check them carefully.

We have to make sure that everybody in the doggone place of any

stature at all, asking them for their names, for reasons.

And we don't even get them from most people.

And then they turn around and cry.

And I don't invite my friends to these dinners to cry a lot.

I don't, you know.

And we've got, on this dinner coming up, I told them to hold the invitations up because they're ready to make them.

Because if I had to do that...

Because we've got a lot of givers or potential givers.

And I just don't know.

Because I don't want anybody to write me and I don't want to say that you reiterated something.

Because we talked about it yesterday.

I just couldn't believe that you talked with me, and then somebody else.

Actually, I had a discussion yesterday, but I was thinking that it might be something that I may have written, you know, I don't know when.

Maybe it had to be at least three weeks ago.

I guess you have to go out and do it.

Okay, well, I'm just going to ignore your comment.

Let me see it.

Let me see if I can copy it.

They can handle it.

They want it in.

Colton and Butterfield can take it.

But I'm not going to be the techist and dig up names for them and then just go around with them.

If somebody the other way around, they can do the work and have their girls spend a little bit of time there.

Well, even if we do, they just...

We had the ones that everybody suggested.

We had a lot of them at the Australian one and at the two dinners last week we had.

We had the one dinner that we invited for the other time and we were going to have somebody and it was canceled.

And also, you've just got to remember that most of those people have gotten an appointment, and the people who are on this list for this dinner are people who have given and haven't gotten an appointment.

I don't want any more deputies or undersecretaries.

I agree.

They want a quick dinner.

They don't want to take dinner.

They're not for the team anyway.

Not a part of it.

Yeah, but if they are going to cooperate unless they have a citizen state then, that's not really very, uh, that's hard.

Let me ask you this.

What is your situation on the, uh, I didn't think of this as a Hollywood kind of thing.

I've never actually talked about suits or, uh,

Before I get it through my mind, I'd like you to sort of give me a list of people you can count on.

I have them checking the ones who... Well, they're doing it right now.

They're checking the ones who, from Susan, who have been here.

And then I thought, once we check that, we'll double-check her to see if there are others she thinks of.

Sue has not been out of town.

Well, not in the last six months, but...

Yes, I think that we clearly... Taken from all the lists and from hand-catchings of Jim Stone and people, you know.

The only thing I want to do is to be sure that we get, which I mentioned to you before, that all those that were the celebrities

At these dinners, I want them included in something.

Probably have to be an evening at the White House and be festive.

If they have not been before, I shall go back and get a heartland letter again.

No.

But you've got it all in mind.

Most of those people have been invited, some of them two or three times.

The celebrities are the hardest ones to get, because they have commitments all the time.

You know, their books and the shows.

Right.

It's like John Wayne.

I've been invited several times.

I have.

Well, he came once anyway.

There, yeah.

I'd like to have you on the thing.

I'm absolutely proud of it.

Why not?

We'll see.

Hey, we'll have a thing.

But don't forget that.

If they don't want to from now on, if they don't want to stay unless they come to the White House, they don't come.

Understand?

I've finished that list, and I'll have you all invited to something.

I think they can come to anything.

Well, they can't.

They can't.

It's under the tree.

Well, you had two more yesterday, so for this one... Well, except not next year.

It's going to be longer.

We're not moving on this one.

I know he doesn't have to be here.

I had not realized it when you asked me that we were talking about this month.

Uh, the other question.

Okay.

Colin, because of reasons that you're not aware.

Yes.

Rose?

Yes.

I want you to address Colin.

Yes.

Just like you treat, uh, doing all this by hand.

I want you to always have a calm down and always call and say, the president has you on his list and we'd like to have you, but only if you would like to come.

But he is always to be honored.

Because there's a reason at this point that we, because of all this financial injury.

And I was, fortunately, he only had one more dinner, so it doesn't make any difference.

Well, he, you know, he said, we may not be smart.

He was looking on automatically.

Yeah.

Okay.

He made a great hit over in, like, remember Maggie Norton?

Oh, yeah.

She came back to Bangkok and they heard him.

She said he was just tremendous with the whole community.

She was against him before because when you appointed a Democrat, she said he was so great that he was...

Forceful, you know, and he was so much for you when he had such guts, but you really... Well, I used to pressure you to get her out and learn to do the same thing.

See, or more like guts, I guess.

Well, Bill tries to cheat.

Yeah, he does.

He just doesn't like to hit a 20-year-old.

That's how he's playing.

He'll hit somebody.

Yeah.

All this happened, but it was not, well, I don't know, I don't have any fucking idea what the goddamn thing has done to me.

I'm a month old.

I didn't fucking know what she said.

So I suppose it's kind of a good thing to bring that, that's what it was all about, because I had just told her yesterday that we were through with the intersection, that we didn't have to have anymore.

You know what I mean?

And so forth.

Right, yeah.

So, Mrs. Aylward, which we had covered with her, and I thought I had it covered with Melvin.

Well, he said that I, that the President wanted again, and, you know, for her to talk to Colson about it was something that I only wanted to be done.

I didn't, must agree to what I had suggested, what I had said, was that we should be sure to check the Pelosi list.

She, she, she takes his list, and then she checks it off, which she should do.

She's not riding around in her robes.

Now she can keep a load of cabinet people under her damn hands.

Some of them fell when she was in the school, and he didn't discuss this with me.

He didn't listen to what I said.

Oh, I have no conversation with him.

On the menace he left, I have no conversation with him ever.

Well, and frankly, I have absolutely none about them.

I would be talking to you about it.

No, that's totally different from what I've been saying.

Yeah.

The Medicaid list, because I don't want other secretaries, I'm sure of them.

And the political list, there's a misunderstanding somewhere.

The political list is, yeah, I was wondering if maybe you've written a memorandum some time ago or something.

I may have.

Because that's what I think.

I may have thought of it.

Well, you wouldn't just go back to St. Clementine.

Early September, he's referring to, I may have written him an event, you know, when we went, as a guidance thing, when we went through, I don't want to embarrass him, but you know, he put me in a hell of a spot, because I know I have not discussed it with him at all.

On the coastline, we agreed that he was going to run his stuff through me, and I was going to run his stuff through you.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the latest.

That's the things that, you know.

See, that's what I was going to say.

He does a great job.

Maybe one of his bad hunters did something.

Something really screwed up, or maybe that's memos among them.

He says, reiterated this morning, two points he had made back at 7 a.m. Why didn't you discuss the dog the other day?

This morning, November 15th.

Why didn't you discuss the dog the other day?

At all?

And the colts of the...

She can't do it with her because she's, you know, she hates Butterfield.

I mean, we'll not deal with him, so she hates all of us.

But that's what I mean.

She said, but she doesn't like Butterfield because apparently he writes her memorandum.

She can't do it.

What you agree with?

I don't think there's any problem.

I get that all the time where you say, you know, you want to be sure someone's covered.

Well, usually I just listen to her.

The rest of us are writing to her and anybody else.

Anyway, just so we have proper guidance.

I think we have done, under secretaries and deputies, and I said, yes, we'll do it today.

I don't want to space rule.

I really feel that way.

I know they're all making a sacrifice, and we've done the same, but they don't want to space.

The response factor that wants to quit, I've decided it's down in the China, and he quits.

You know, we don't need them.

I just think we just can't continue to have this situation.

How much cry babies are out here?

We don't like that.

I don't mind.

We do so much.

Rusto is so intelligent.

He's actually got a point to share.

The more you do for people, the more they would expect.

It's a sponge theory.

It will be a half an hour at this camp, meaning he'll be upset because he doesn't get an hour at the next one.

He probably timed it a little.

He got more than a half an hour, too.

He got about 40 minutes, 45 minutes.

Because we all, you know, we were trying to act in peace.

It was hard.

We did.

I was late, which I don't want to say to the hell out of you, but, you know.

No, I don't think so.

He had some other guy.

He didn't do the textbook picture.

He had some poor clown up there.

Go ahead and throw it out.

All good.

What else is new now?

Open it.

You had asked a while back for an analysis of the Senate Democrats who had been with us on the important national security votes with the thought that you have a Democrat.

The list boils down to read, there are only six that have been solid with us on seven key issues.

The votes they took were Mansfield's NATO, the Hatfield-McGovern, the Mansfield withdrawal, both times the Scott motion on the Cooper Church table.

And with you all the time were Eastland, Irvin, Jackson, McGee, Stennis, and Sparklin.

Jackson, McGee, Stennis, Sparklin, Irvin, and Eastland.

Two went against you once only, and that was Alan, who went against the final class of two.

Special consideration, he's also talking about, you know, the hairy burgers.

You have to exchange the dexamethasone that's by mine.

That is by my, at this time, it's a dexamethasone by my bed.

It's long.

It's, uh, it's not always long.

The bird's been looking on everything except the Stenocinema and 480, and that's because he's opposed to 480.

I'm always hesitant.

And Howard Cannon, who's been with you on everything except the two Mansfield amendments, and there he had to go with Mansfield because of his tie to Mansfield.

Well, because of that, I would think you would leave him out.

But Harry Bird, Harry Bird, I won't lose for other reasons.

God, I don't see why you would leave Jackson on.

No, that's your other problem.

You do it, it's how you leave out Jackson.

Who has been with you in the eye?

You can just leave him out of this, brother.

Why don't we just make southerners?

Eastman, Irwin.

That would be McGee, I'd do.

Eastman, Irwin.

Scarfman.

We're going to grab that program while it's rolling.

Stemming, Scarfman.

Now, long.

Inverted.

You're in an awkward position because that student, apparently, he definitely is going to announce on Friday, so he'll be an announcement that you can't very well have him in.

This is on 3A, we'll put the 5 on, you load it on.

And then you go up to Cogs, Cog Cogs.

If you want us to shoot, we're setting up a...

Get me a list of the house people.

Some of the leader types.

House Southerners.

Leader types of the foreign, of the, yeah.

Leader types of the foreign area.

Yeah, leader types of the foreign area, the armed services.

George Maynard, it's over in the cellar.

We had them in there one time.

And then, of course, Senator, you've got leaving out Jackson, or, you know what I mean, against Stennis.

All right, you don't have to start in that way, or against Stennis, or, you know, just pick a few people around.

Attorney General, once your final OK on platform chairing for the convention, both Hugh Scott and Johnny Rhodes won it.

We all, and John Rhodes didn't have it, and that's what we're going to do when we go to the objectionary.

I'll just say the House began to do something else.

But I'll also accuse the leader and its gutter responsibilities.

I don't really care much about those things.

I don't think you should.

I mean, I don't think you should care much about it.

You shouldn't get into it.

I think now I'm prepared for if you were.

And do we know Spaniards will resign?

Yeah, Mitchell says that we, that I talked to him yesterday, and he says he knows that he will, that Sands has committed, says, and Mitchell started pushing him on, you know, getting the timing, and Sands said fine, he would get to it with John right after he got back from Russia.

Good.

All right, I want you to break the ice with Peterson.

Okay.

Tell Peterson that.

Or do you think I should get Peterson in and tell him myself?

I don't know whether he felt out in advance or not.

The best thing for me to do is to call him in.

who knows him better than anybody else, says he'll jump at the chance that it's the kind of thing he would love to do.

And then it doesn't, he said, I said, is there any chance that he wouldn't take it?

George said, no.

I mean, yeah, I don't mind if he got a name.

Cross, right?

Well, that's

John Robbins, I called him last night to thank him for working on these crates.

He says that

I think, Mitchell, if you were going to get in touch with him, he said, this shows weaknesses in some areas of great strength.

And then there's one place where he shows weaknesses, Pennsylvania.

He said, Tom, most guys are too old.

We just need better people.

Now, of course, he's talking about the finance side.

Right.

Do what you can.

In Massachusetts, of course, we had the fact that I don't want to do anything about it.

We've gone over.

In Pennsylvania, you have.

OK, we're working on Pennsylvania.

Are there a couple others, too?

In California, which we, L.A. especially.

In San Francisco, L.A.

I don't know what happened there.

They just, uh, they didn't get this done.

Jack Brown was the chairman who they thought would be good, but he didn't.

He only, uh, he only hit half a million.

They should have hit a million.

Mr. White, Mr. White's over here now.

I expect you've got to give that an hour.

Okay.

Now, no hurry.

No hurry.

I'll have to see you sometime this afternoon.

Yeah, this afternoon.

I'll be late this afternoon.

I'm telling you, don't, don't bother.

Keep the schedule.

This is my house.

We'll call it later this afternoon.

Yes.

you couldn't have a better reason now to do this because that is unbelievable for him to talk to that you know unless he knows he's doing it he may have maybe done it for some reason the dinner did show some some areas that smoked out and it showed some areas of strength of course

Some of them are misleading.

It showed strength in Texas, but it was misleading because that was all oil.

And they moved in and just scooped up the oil, people.

But LA, the weakness there is the Reagan, the division.

And from San Francisco, on the other hand, did better than they did here.

You had a chance to start an involvement with the colony.

We'll see you tomorrow.

We have tomorrow free.

Free except for rain.

Or times of evil love.

That's the only thing.

We have to do it tomorrow.

We need to go together.

That's Peter's responding.

I have a note on him.

We're trying to do a broad sweep on this, not just the people we immediately know about.

See, it isn't just that.

We've got two.

He's got a new undersecretary posted also.

under some reorganization thing that he's got, that he gets to do under.

I've got to get something on the NATO thing today.

I don't know what they're, what are they recommending on that, do you know?

But if, the way you might look at Flanagan yesterday was to check water there, to check water there, and you had Sprague and,

Planting it, please.

Oh, man.

Oh, yeah.

That way, that's the first shot.

Get the goal in first.

That's it.

Yeah.

The, uh... First time's a good week.

Thanks for today.

Mitchell, I think he wants to talk to you about something.

Maybe it's better if he didn't.

Oh, I wasn't a part of it.

Just talking to Mitchell.

We're basically figuring out not doing the air-to-vail Thursday.

That's what we're doing, isn't it?

I'm not just sure that we should deal with this.

I'm not just sure.

Yeah.

High five.

I don't think we'll lose that thing, Thursday.

I mean, we'll open it this week.

I'm not sure we'll do it at all.

If you do it at all, Friday's a possibility.

Monday would seem to be the best day.

He sure looks bad.

There's meaning to his thing up to Wednesday now.

I don't think you do, but I just don't know.

I just don't think you do.

without a period, just a little bit, two days.

I mean, it's trying to get a cheat that's all well and good, but I'm just not sure.

Well, the problem you've got is you used to be able to go in and say they were solid on foreign policy and all that, but that's been kicking you on foreign policy.

Hearing about all this China business, why don't you meet with Cass Carroll?

You mentioned that you shouldn't go to Florida.

Oh, we all know that, because if we look back, the thing would be right there, and I was going to do it then, not this time.

Oh, I was only planning to go to Florida.

The reaction at the present time is not to do that convention.

I just feel that...

I feel we're going to eventually prove to be enemies, you know what I mean, and he's going to take us on.

And we may as well, we may as well have had it.

I guess, you know, just to put it, okay.

I mean, he can't have it both ways.

He can't kick us.

And if we're trying to do something in terms of getting...

So we're on that body.

The other thing is, if you will, is I ain't got, we've got to push back and malign the press to get these goddamn names in here.

The name of one is the most important.

Layers to the secretaries or deputy secretaries are relatively important.

Because I didn't want any of them to get denied.

And then of course the Japan thing was third in the list.

And the Fed.

Huh?

And the Fed.

And the Fed, of course, yes.

And of course a replacement for McCracken.

Now, I've noticed as a man that I don't like a lot of Malik's name on that.

I mean, well, Malik can help, but McCracken, I mean, Schultz I think just probably knows the scoffers.

On that, I want you to have the nine covered.

I've covered the Anglican.

I've covered the Japan thing with Connolly.

I want everything cleared with Connolly in all of these.

And he's approved both later.

And what I have, I have it going down to the Manish-Braven at this point.

The second question is that the council is essential.

I told Schultz as he was sitting here

We've got to check this with Connelly.

That's the consulate in Japan.

I've already cleared his panel.

He's for him, but he's for Ted.

I'll go strike out and then we'll take another look.

See?

Right.

The other two, the other, we have to get some names.

And let's get some names in here pretty soon.

Because Arthur's pushing Connelly on this test.

I'm not going to take the test.

Yeah.

Hello.

I don't know, because I haven't seen Christopher, but I'll find out.

All right.

All right, okay.

Good luck.

Well... We need to check in right now, Sam.

Let's go.

But even the board of policy people shouldn't have even got that.

Well, except for Jackson on the defense stuff does, because that was his line.

And McGee does too.

And the Southerners do, because they're not so partisan anyway.

They're not leading Democrats.

That bunch are just out to cut.

There's nothing different over in the House.

Carl Albert and people like that are political as they are.

No, I have to say, well, George may not, but it's dwindling there, too.

Yeah, it's going to dwindle more so.

Yeah, we got it.

It's going to be on then.

Well, I think it's going to be on then, too.

It's going to be hard for us.

The thing is, you know, that I constantly try to...

He doesn't have the slightest idea what the hell the pressures are here.

Where are we going?

I see the trend on it.

We fight them every time.

It's on the wall, but it gets tighter and tighter.

Or die.

Call our general.

I'm not.

Frank, what if I can get into that?

I just, I have a problem with it.

I get it from a graver.

Okay.

And let me see if he can handle it through cotton.

What McCloy would like to do is

to take on a special task.

Hello?

I haven't heard from you in a while.

We could give them a project of looking at the future of European-American relations.

Christ, I don't want a case.

No, I just think it's...

Walter Thayer wouldn't be bad.

I'd rather have Manfield stray than Stessel.

Which is?

Also, it's a bad idea when these fellows are told... No, Cecil isn't bad.

I have to say this for him.

Cecil is not bad.

He said, I saw the grandson's shirt going.

He said, he's an enormously impressive man.

I was scheduled for only 30 minutes, and he gave me an hour and 15 minutes.

I thought, whoa, what a surprise.

Everett told you that.

I thought, you dumb bastard, why didn't you get out in 30 minutes?

I mean, you know, don't do that.

Get fit.

You know what I'm saying?

I got another one in a very different way.

It was a delightful guy that does it.

It was Don Campbell.

Come in and say, yeah, I'm scheduled for an hour.

He gave me three hours.

And you're sitting here and having a different 15 minutes.

And Frank Shakespeare.

Oh, yes.

Those three guys measure success by the minute.

And they count.

They look and say, hi.

And they say, my god, I got a minute.

And then see how long they sit.

And they don't realize it.

And I remember our line going.

So I had to go.

I always come back before I was out of office for 30 minutes.

I got out of line.

And boy, they appreciate it.

Of course.

I don't see very...

I see a few that come up and say, you know, we have to kick them out.

We've got to send them off.

Or they stop speeding up in the last ten minutes and read so fast from their notes that you can hardly understand.

Well, one of the fine things is the guy from Shakespeare is the worst inventor.

He comes in with a stack, well, both cases.

Shakespeare comes in with a stack of notes, and he starts down, and his 20 minutes is up, and he's only gotten through two of what is obviously about nine pages.

Then he makes you feel guilty.

Well, then you just wipe out.

You just forget and you give up.

There's not a chance you're going to do a job.

Yeah, it's a tough one.

I saw Rafi this morning.

Their answer is too complicated to explain, but I think what they now want is they say Golda Meir is coming over for a bomb drive no matter what happens.

and she absolutely is highly eager, putting her mind to see you.

And I think that is the only way we're going to get this on the road.

It all goes here the first week of December.

She could come earlier, but she was here in San Clemente.

Now, I think this is desirable for another reason.

Raj isn't late again without telling anybody.

I've asked Diane to come over here.

Now, come on in.

Hello.

I'm kidding.

First week of December.

That sign's out.

That's true.

It wouldn't be a state visit, just be an office, of course.

I would have to be alone.

I don't want to be in drives.

It shouldn't be in.

Do you want to do it in a second, maybe?

It must be a little later.

Well, any time you say.

I want to do it in a second.

I'll be here.

It doesn't matter.

It's just something that you've been achieving.

You know, up to the Azores.

Not the clouds, let's say.

It's tentatively 11 and 12, isn't it?

So the real problem here, the real problem is this, is that basically both of them are moving to the other side, and Austin won't be there about a minute.

Oh, yeah.

And frankly, both of them can change.

Now, this is what it all is.

We cannot change a year before the event of the election.

And you could possibly change Roger Scott.

I doubt it.

It would be impossible to change Roger because of just what he could do to people.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

that Connolly wants and that I want, and we're going to take charge.

And, uh, go ahead and report it.

Connolly, I want you okay with this.

Good luck.

I'll be glad.

I have no trip for this 11th or 12th or 13th or 14th.

But anyway, that's what we're up against.

Now, when I go and have Bob talk to Laird, I don't think it'll look out then that good, because Laird will slide off.

I've already talked to him.

He called me about something, and I said, that's a great story in the New York Times.

He said, what story?

What story?

Yeah, then he called back and said, oh, Jesus, it's exactly the opposite of what I believe, and I go down the lines for you, and...

He said, his president doesn't think you put it out.

I said, I don't know.

I said, I said, I don't know what the president thinks.

I think you put it out.

So why?

I think it's a person.

Yeah.

But as the president, after the three years here, nobody has leaked out of my, even the guys who quit haven't leaked.

And

If he terrified his people, maybe a tiny bit came out of it, but the thrust of it came out of defense.

To get back to this Israeli thing with the president, what these characters are now doing is they're going to promise phantoms to Dayan in order for the Israelis to enter these negotiations with the Egyptians.

They'll do it.

They'll enter the negotiations in order to get the phantoms.

then they'll deadlock the negotiations.

And then we've paid the price twice.

What's the answer?

Well, the answer, what I would do is, if anyone is going to give phantoms, you ought to do it.

Raja can't rehabilitate himself with the Israelis if he gives them...

500 phantoms.

How do you know they said they're going to give the phantoms?

That's what they're going to do.

I know these guys.

All right, well, get her in here.

I'll give her the goddamn phantoms.

Well, maybe you don't want to give her the phantoms.

Then they can still go away.

They're going to be given.

I couldn't agree more.

I've got to give the damn phantoms.

At any rate, no one should give the phantoms except you.

You can also relate them then if you wanted to make that decision.

It would give us another way of delaying with the Russians.

We could say to the Russians, we're working on it, but you want to talk to Mrs. Mayer first.

Gives us two more weeks to delay on the president's offer.

And then, conceivably, if you wanted to, you could use the fandoms to get her approval to do at least part of the president's deal.

In which case, you'd get an interim settlement.

before we have to screw them after the election.

I understand that.

But...

I understand that.

You understand that.

They don't, but we're going to do it.

Yeah, but... Because we have to in order to make the Russian deal.

That's right.

But the Russian deal ought to be made soon.

Goddamn, I think that's the...

I agree.

There ain't going to be no deal without the Russians, in my opinion.

I agree, but...

The state will never make the deal.

Well, the state has the faculties.

they've given them more fandoms than we would ever have and got less for it just to get their goddamn negotiations just got to the punch we have got to get more open i just don't think it's worth calling

I think there's something to be said.

I want to know by this afternoon who it was, who it was, and what he's done with it.

Tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him.

Tell him the situation is that he heard layers of...

You have that job.

You're a member of the cabinet.

You've got a national job to do here.

You're the Lord High Executioner.

And we wanted to leave that story that it was in, it was common after the president came all over the place to avoid talking to our residual forces and the polls coming up and the rest, that it came out this way.

That the, that in addition to that, they said that the Defense Department was going to do it beforehand, which of course,

The whole goddamn cabinet.

I mean, that was Roger's picture of the Scali thing, wasn't it?

They figured that we weren't giving the cab enough credit, and I didn't write enough notes, and call them enough, and thank them for all they wanted.

No one has ever done for the cabinet.

Is that true?

No, is it?

Yeah, not really.

He was saying the Scali should criticize the cab for being so rude.

Hell, you've given the cab... No, shit it is, no.

You've given the goddamn cabinet credit for things they didn't do.

Austin, please, say the kind of stuff I go through.

I'm writing around me one day in the alley of the palace.

I think what they need the most, what they want the most, is what Eisenhower gave them, and which I refuse to do so because my time is frankly more valuable than his.

He didn't have these problems.

But Eisenhower gave those books.

Of course he didn't.

He had other people deal with his animals while he talked to the cabinet.

He had cabinet meetings every week.

He went through the head.

He had a goddamn cabinet meeting.

And they sit there and they bring papers to the cabinet.

He never discussed anything.

Nothing was ever discussed.

He never heard of it.

He used a device of an elaborate staff system to make them think that they were involved.

But could we get a count of how much time the president actually logs with cabinet members as compared to Eisenhower?

I don't know the name of the official, Captain.

Officers, I think I've logged more.

Eisenhardt used to see Somerville, because Somerville was such a site with a cheap push, a good push, that he came in.

And he used to see dogs, a great deal.

But Christ, he didn't see the others.

Believe me, he did not see the others.

And I'll tell you this, I've logged more time with them than Eisenhardt already, than Eisenhardt logged with me in eight years.

Get that out.

I have logged more time with them than Eisenhardt.

That's good.

No, but it shows the difference, the two men.

Yeah, but it, uh, it plays you the wrong way.

The earlier, the late, uh, I never came in.

Oh, eight years, I didn't see you in the front.

I never saw you.

No, but I...

I didn't want to.

It puts you in this position.

I do.

He loves that.

He's playing around.

He's playing around and he's never been much of a problem in the beginning.

Getting his position set up and coming in here.

He rarely asks to see you.

He never bitches about not seeing you.

I've noticed him for the days.

Well, he's a little screwed up in his own way, but he tries hard to play a role.

And he's quite decent in dealing with us now, which he didn't used to.

That's where you were very decent.

You didn't have any option, but you were always the staff.

But I used to come down and sit there by the hour.

weeks or so for 15 minutes.

I never asked him to come on.

I'm having breakfast with

Jesus Christ, every power there has been every year improperly spent.

You know how tough that cheater was?

The president got ex-executed from the middle of that cheater, which it was.

Well, hell, I can testify to that fact.

You said to me that if the Supreme Court voted against it, you'd go ahead anyway.

I'm glad you said it that morning.

You said that to me that morning.

Of course, because the Supreme Court had no goddamn right to determine this.

And I was perfectly prepared to go through and all hell would have broken loose and I would have done it.

But these goddamn scientists, not one has now admitted that there was any mistake.

No, but the press has such one where we did get that one.

Yes, there's been quite a bit written about that.

Oh, oh, oh, what happened to all the smartasses who said that?

Yes.

There's been a lot of gloating.

Henry, the thing about it is this.

I didn't want you to know it's over.

I didn't tell her, for Christ's sakes, to keep it quiet.

I love it.

Love the thing that I heard.

The President, in his own mind, is working all this out, but the President wants to do it with her.

Well, no, they'll cancel the Dayan visit for May.

They'll cancel it.

As soon as you tell them, they'll see.

I saw it here.

Your family saw it here.

I saw it here.

They're all having to do something for our Israeli friends in this country, for Christ's sake.

But if you do that, I would forget, though, to the interim settlement somehow to be done through this office, because then...

You can get the credit.

What have you decided about the Chinese guy?

Answer it tomorrow?

Bush will make a statement when he gets back to New York at the end of the day.

He'll make it from New York.

Fine.

That's fine.

But don't just... No, no, no, no.

I don't jump up and down and say that.

What I did is I tried... You know what I mean?

Understand.

The Chinese are going to take it down.

The thing for him to do is to react in a very Shakespearean way.

I had about six calls from Rogers this morning accusing me of keeping the speech from you, that it was a violent speech.

He just likes to piss on the Chinese.

You mean the Chinese speech from the president?

Yeah, he said, he said, he said, are you sure you hear that?

When I said I wanted low key, he said it was an outrageous speech.

It's partly his ignorance.

If you read what they said about Vietnam, it had tough rhetoric, but it didn't ask for a deadline.

It didn't ask for the overthrow of Cuba.

All it said was American troops had to be withdrawn, but no deadline.

And no, and that we've already told them.

They said it went wrong.

I read the speech, of course.

I know what you said.

It was...

It was a smart strategy on their part instead of coming in and sucking on the deal and they came in and...

They had to stake out their position.

Now what I did is I gave Bush a statement which repeats some of my rebuttals to Joe without labeling them as such.

And a very brief one.

He just said we're disappointed that they came in.

instead of firing the empty cannons of rhetoric.

The reason I picked that is because when I complained about these placards, Joe said to me, don't worry about it, it's just empty cannon.

And it's a two paragraph.

Bill is satisfied with that statement.

They wanted to make it at-state with television cameras.

I think it's much better for Bush to do it.

Why have a big goddamn hassle with the Chinese right now?

Well, moreover, if we do it in Washington, they'll reply in Peking.

If they do it in New York, they can reply in New York if they want to.

Secondly, nothing would please the Russians more than for us to be in a public role with the Chinese.

Thirdly, people are going to say, what the hell is he going there for if we now get into a huge brawl with him?

If they could...

I told him this morning it's refreshing to be accused of being too soft on some issues.

And I'll tell their fellow in Paris that if...

If this keeps up, we'll have to reply from Washington.

I'll get it shut off.

And I don't think it's a good thing to get into a public brawl with the Chinese, especially as they also attacked the Russians.

Did they attack the Russians?

Oh, that's right, in this speech.

In this speech.

Oh, yes, they took on all of us.

So I don't see why we should be in a hurry to be the first to reply to them.

Mr. Bush can make a low-key thing when he gets back to New York today.

I don't know if he will see the ambassador when he gets back or not.

Maybe he won't be back.

I think I'll see him.

Yeah, he's supposed to be back.

Oh, Lee.co is coming back.

That's right.

Well, they published an article today saying there'll be new initiatives.

So we'll have a little blip on Thursday when he arrives.

Will he be there for the meeting Thursday?

The Thursday difficulty we have with the Chinese thing, Henry, is that we're sort of waiting.

I mean, we can't make this announcement next Tuesday unless you hear from them, correct?

Correct.

I can't imagine that we won't hear from them.

I think we will too.

Because we asked, I gave them a message today, saying we expect, we want an answer by Saturday when I see him.

And I've also said that you'd like to answer questions at a press conference which you're thinking of giving regarding Mrs. Nixon's going with you schedule and so forth.

That's good.

I don't see why they wouldn't agree to it.

No, they said any time between the 20th and the 30th, and I told them it would have to be before the 24th, because you were going away on the 24th.

And I didn't want to get into the issue that you potentially were in California, but... Now Henry, what in the hell are we going to do about this under Deputy Secretary of Defense?

We don't have any candidates.

Is there anybody we can pull out of this goddamn government and put over there to run that thing?

I just don't know.

We've got somebody in the government.

Who could do without one for a while?

Where is it?

Foster could do it.

Who?

Foster, the fellow whom he wants to make secretary.

I'd rather put him up there than some of the others I think of.

I would just hate to give it to Laird.

I'm not going to take it.

I guess I could take Siemens.

I mean, I was, I was, I told Laird that.

I didn't want him to continue as the Air Force.

Didn't you tell him that, Bob?

I remember very well.

Or did I?

I don't think I did, yes.

No, no, you wanted him fired as, uh, as Air Force.

Fired?

I just wanted him relieved.

He was so old, you know, getting rid of research.

And it isn't good that Laird, you tell him no, and then he comes right back.

I approve the rest of the list, you know.

I saw it, and it's not a good list either, but I think it's over a year.

When you get a new secretary of defense, they want to bring his own people in anyway.

Oh, Christ, I'll say it.

That's a real anomaly for Bill Ryan to say this.

He must know for Christ's sake what we know, what this is all about.

He said we give up everything for the trip, everything sacrificed for the trip.

You're running enormous political risks.

All the conservatives are going to get mad at you.

I've never heard anybody about conservatives before.

What's your view on it, Bob?

I think he's way off base.

There was a problem.

But this speech hasn't attracted any attention.

If we make a big... You don't expect the Chinese to rattle, Cage.

Besides, it wasn't all that bad a speech.

Then, we had told Bush he couldn't say anything about the Chinese without checking it here.

He wanted to and lose to take on the Chinese.

Bush is too inexperienced.

Oh, I see.

Bush is good.

He'll tell you a joke.

Yeah, but they'll be terribly reassured by our communique, Mr. President, because the way that's set up, one good thing about that U.N. speech...

Yesterday is another delay that set up.

I think what I mean is they reflect that.

Obviously, that comes back to Robbins, I'm sure, to his ambassadors.

The whole goddamn State Department, frankly, is there.

They basically

did not concede either of these trips, and frankly, aren't for either one of them.

They still hope to be able to take over the Moscow trip, so they're not yet pissing on that.

But the Peking one, they actively sort of, that isn't theirs at all.

Now, what I mean is the communique at the end of the China trip where we stayed our position in Peking,

say the United States reaffirms all its defense commitments, will be terribly reassuring to the, uh...

Even to Taiwan.

Yeah.

So, and actually one of our... Obama objects to that procedure.

No, he's accepted that now.

And see, he sold that joint.

Remember that?

I don't mind.

He was certainly repulsed.

He recognizes now that that's a good way of doing it.

And also, the thing that he reminds me of is, I have been saying over and over again, we have wide differences.

why differences in philosophy domestically and why differences in our objectives in foreign policy.

We do not expect to resolve those differences.

We're going to talk about them, that's all.

Ain't no use to crap around about it.

Not have that set the stage for glistening differences, right?

Absolutely.

And it's a more unequal process.

Hell, we can, if I factor out this order, we can make this sound like one of the most creative approaches.

While if you had a lot of waffling stuff, we'd have to spend all our time explaining what it really is.

We had one of those meaningless communiques that referred to that.

We had a very, very bold and satisfied, bold and candid and honest discussion of problems and so on.

So I could write them almost by my sleep.

It wouldn't mean a goddamn thing.

Now, one of the things that is good about this UN speech is the statement of their position in the communique.

is much softer than the statement of their position at the U.N.

So we can take credit for getting them to soften that.

They don't...

I haven't shown him the text.

I've told him that's the approach, and I said, you were going to work it out with Zhou.

So what the thing to do is just show it to him in Peking and say, you worked it out.

So I don't think it's good that Chinese...

We'll be furious if word gets out that it was worked out before you talked to Mark.

Secondly, it's no credit to you then.

The way we should do it is get the word out.

You personally worked this out with Mark.

And it's essentially, it followed your directions.

What does that mean?

You should know.

Bill has come in and talked to Bob.

and uh just repeated me about going he wants to go to moscow now uh we have not responded to that

Now, the reason, or I haven't talked to him about it yet.

Remember, I gave you the instructions on it.

And what the, the line I'm about to take is that my father goes, you can't go with me.

It's a trip.

I mean, you're a, you're a cabin officer, not a staff officer.

That's that, that's the line I'm going to send.

And he hasn't pushed it either for a long time.

I know I haven't raised it again with me, but I'm sure that came right out of the, this was about a month ago.

But this flight, you're gone.

There's something I can't, but that must have come right out of the State Department.

But of course, that just can't be.

There's got to be an advance on this.

In fact, you're not going to go either.

I don't want to.

You do not want to.

You need to deal with the brain here.

I shouldn't go.

It'd be a mistake for me to tell you.

Well, we don't want to.

This, we're going to advance this one like we did for me.

I think I should work out a communique with Sabrina, which we then surface the same way, without telling anybody.

And, uh...

But our whole line here is that we're going to treat this like any of our other countries until we have relations, and we're not going to send it to Vince.

I mean, the whole deal, I don't know, I like this.

Well, if he went, he'd take a big press corps with him.

He'd take McCloskey.

They'd be pushing out the stuff.

Every piece of football, he'd screw it up because he just doesn't have...

the mind to do this.

Well, it just is the wrong, it takes the edge off the trip.

It takes the edge off the trip?

Trip, you take credit for every damn thing that's done.

You'll totally confuse the negotiations with Dobrynin.

You said that you'd written me a letter, Senator, over 300 words, but I haven't looked at it.

If I have no comments, Dan, I won't say a word.

I'm glad these things have been announced, because we can get them to be honest.

Well,

It would be almost inconceivable to me that they don't agree to it.

I don't see what's in it for them, not to announce it.

They have a heavy investment, Mr. President.

They got rid of Lin Piao and the Army Chief of Staff as a result.

Also, they have looking down their troops, for whatever it's worth.

In fact, we're going to Russia now.

And they've got a million Russians sitting on their borders.

They wouldn't have talked this warmly to, to Sultan Khan.

It's not that you're a foreigner.

Harder was always rather nice.

So he went to New York harder.

Oh, the Aga Khan, yes.

Oh, yes.

You know what it is?

He took the Pakistan Line for a while.

He hopes to be made.

U.N. General Secretary, because of his change, he's... What is he in the background?

Is he an Indian?

No, he's the Ismaili sect, which is... Well, they don't really belong to any country.

If they belong to any, it'd be Pakistan, but basically he's the spiritual ruler of that sect, which has altogether around the world 40 million people.

And so he's a Moslem?

He's a Moslem.

Well, anyway, I deliberately knew he was going to get back balanced and very strong on the Pakistan side.

Now, he makes one fight, Henry, that I think we ought to consider.

Haig was here and heard of him.

And that is, I'm sure you know, that there may be more open intro than you think, and there may be

It may be, I know it's all reading papers, that the position that we have taken, I know you've taken the rest, that it's totally inconceivable to work out an ending as far as he's concerned.

It may not, it may not be true.

No, I think it's conceivable to work something out.

But let's just say that once a month, if it can be done.

And I think it would just be the reason I think it would destroy the goddamn Indians.

That's the thing.

I talked to the foreign secretary about it, and I told him that I thought that Moojib was the key to it.

He said he was going to let us know, yeah, yeah, it's a settlement.

Then when we have that, you might want to reply to that in a letter, in a personal letter.

You see, the reason that I think it's possible is that

He probably ought to be shot.

Let's remember that.

Second however, he's there.

As long as he's there, it appears that nobody else can get him.

As long as that's the case, then the thing to do is to screw the Indians.

The Indians don't want this stuff.

The Indians are putting this stuff because they don't think Yahya can do it.

They think that Yahya's hard line is to take him on, right?

So, if I were Yahya, I'd screw the goddamn Indians by making them think

Well, there are two things that will happen.

First, the Indians will demand that Moojib leave Pakistan.

They won't accept the deal that he makes in Pakistan.

They'll say he was brainwashed.

Oh, shit.

Well, but then there's no telling what Moojib will do once he's out of Pakistan.

You mean he has been brainwashed?

No, it may be that the Indians will convince him that they're so determined to wreck this thing.

And he's a lightweight.

Trouble with Moon Chief is that he's an agitator.

Nevertheless, let me say, looking back over the history of revolutions, let's face it, I think you've always got to make a deal with some son of a bitch.

Oh, they've got to make a deal.

And, uh...

I'd love to screw the enemy, son.

I just swear they are the most miserable, you know.

I mean, we talk about people that are different.

I mean, the Japanese and the Indians.

At least the Japanese deserve some respect.

The Indians deserve nothing but a kick in the ass.

I hit this guy too, the point that I said, I want to emphasize again, because my children's the rest of the world combined.

I saw it very briefly.

He was very impressed at his meeting with you, and he's a very intelligent man.

Oh, he's smart as hell.

I think both of you have naturally

Very good.

He'd be a compromise candidate.

He could come forward only if there's a deadlock.

We are running out of these folks down here today.

It is close.

The reason it's close is that, frankly,

It's the same old story I told the leaders this morning.

They wanted to, you know, they, whether they could take the language that was in the bill, they already passed, which is a comprehensive compromise.

And I said, no.

I said, I just got to go down.

So they're going to fight it out, and they may lose.

And I said, I said, Paul, I just want to tell you one thing.

I said, if you, I said, any amendment that you pass is going to jeopardize

our efforts to release our prisoners may have been swore in the proper way.

Any method that you pass.

I said, now, does anybody doubt that we're in?

Does anybody doubt that they're trying to do the prisoners?

Does anybody doubt that we are trying to come up with ways to do this stuff?

I said, now what should I do by any kind of amendment like this is to have only one strength of the vote rather than any other strength of the vote.

So that's also what I want you to do.

I'm going to repeat the line.

If any amendment is passed, then the Congress assumes the responsibility for favor.

And what is so sickening, I don't mind our Republicans, or at least our people like Ford or Aaron,

But these liberals who now say this does not stop the carnage, this does not stop the killing, it's a great strategy for getting us out.

What this in effect says is we ought to force our allies to surrender.

That's the only way you can stop the killing.

They didn't give me a chance to get that, but there are 105,000 North Vietnamese in South Vietnam.

There are 40,000 North Vietnamese in Cambodia.

There are 80,000 North Vietnamese in Laos.

There are no Laotians, South Vietnamese, or Cambodians in North Vietnam.

Now, who the hell is responsible for the carnage?

And there is a billion dollars worth of Soviet and Chinese aid going into North Vietnam.

A year.

Let me say that the liberals squeal and scurvy.

And I'm not the witness, but they get a right square in the bush.

Of course, if we, I think, Mr. President, if we get, I can't, it would be too good to expect, but if we can get the war negotiated, if we can get it to an end, I then would go on a rampage against the kind of liberals.

Because now they're positioning...

If that kind of event ever comes to pass, they're going to really see somebody that's going to take them home because they're trying to destroy the presidency.

I'm going to keep their asses... No president... No president has had to take what you've had to take.

We've been constantly harassed.

When these people act the way they are, it's unbelievable.

What is happening in the Senate now to add the Mansfield Amendment to every goddamn bill that goes through...

You would have thought in any normal congressional session, you have a debate on principle once, you win it, and that's it for that session.

Well, to their credit, Scott's fought pretty well lately.

Borden and Harris have stood up.

Well, Scott's fight is encouraging because it means that he thinks public opinion is winning.

Oh, that's under the bridge.

We do have a situation here where

where it is going to be ruled for other reasons.

Even some of our Southerners in our meetings, I mean, for solely political reasons.

Solely, not sentence, you know, but he's an unusual man.

You know, after all that bigger, they've never been the big change there.

And they want to be one step ahead of us, that's all.

Laird even wants to be one step ahead of us.

What the hell do you have down there?

Laird is just thinking of what, first of all, Laird genuinely believes he has a chance at the presidency.

Second,

He, whatever his game plan is for 74, he's going to run on, he's going to perform the feat of being both a hawk and a dove simultaneously.

This nonsense he put forward about Saul, in which he wants to be the tough guy.

At the same time that he's trying to take credit, he told Evans and Novak,

that he pushed you on Vietnamization all along.

God, I remember, I can't take any credit for it.

The first week you were in office, you told me that you were going to go to troop withdrawals.

You decided troop withdrawals in February.

Then you sent him to Vietnam to create a little eyewash, a diversion.

and let him take some credit for it when he came back.

But you had a long, dis-educating time.

The whole discussion, the whole discussion, it's ability that I had in my acceptance speech in Miami, for example, and I talked about it in the campaign.

I then began to enunciate, which has become the fact.

I pointed out that I said first in Korea and then in Vietnam, Americans furnish most of the aid, most of the arms, and most of the lives to defend freedom.

I said, now we should furnish the arms, we should furnish the aid, but we should help others defend themselves.

Now that's fundamentally a good comment.

And that's what we've started to carry out in Vietnam.

And that's why I could second with that answer on Cambodia the other day.

I hope we get some of that circulated.

Well, Mary McGrory's wheeled about it that shows that you're at home.

Is that right?

Yeah.

About Cambodia?

Yeah.

Well, about the answer of the Nixon Doctrine that they violated the Nixon Doctrine by going into Vietnam.

At the point that now she says, and this is the new liberal line,

that they pushed you into the withdrawal policy by their demonstrations and so forth.

And... Is that right?

No.

And that's why I think we ought to take them off.

They pushed me into the...

I'm sorry, Frank.

The demonstrations had no goddamn effect at all.

I remember you sent Laird to Vietnam in March, frankly, in order to gain time for your peace plan.

You wanted two months of quiet without being pressed on anything.

So you sent him off

You had already decided to have a withdrawal announcement at the end of May.

After, after the peace proposal.

After you first, you were going to make a peace proposal.

Well, we're, we're, we're in a, we're in a hell of a spot here, I guess.

And I'm not in a spot, but I think we're in a spot here.

We're in our own administration now, Robert.

And you can't explain.

This business model of Larry Murphy's content, why don't the hell don't they get a board and start fighting the battle like Conley does?

Conley is a huge crunch.

Anyone who knows how you make decisions, there are no big brawls in front of you.

They leak to the press as if this were the Johnson administration.

You're being pushed.

That's just not the way you make decisions.

I mean, it's totally inconsistent with the nature of your procedure.

Yeah, it's a great battle in the administration.

Well, these guys haven't got enough guts to have an open battle to begin with.

I don't recall that Roger Stoltz-Brandon

that he was in favor of an even quicker withdrawal than Layard was.

I don't remember that Rogers ever expressed any opinion on withdrawal policy.

We will not be concerned about it.

He said it was going to leak.

You said, don't get it out.

And he gets it out anyway.

But if I can tell the Israelis that you will see the .

They

They just have to do the way it needs to be done.

They openly announce she's going to come to the United States.

And you can tell them in confidence that if she comes to the United States on another day and asks to see me, I will.

And they shouldn't make it.

So it doesn't appear like I'm expecting none of them.

They should say, announce she's coming, make a formal request to her stay.

Oh, my God.

Any questions made, I will accept.

We don't get enough.

There's not a situation where Rogers will come in and say we're screwing up this piece of shit.

Those invasions are canceled.

I agree.

I do.

That's silly of my level.

I don't know.