On November 30, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, Henry A. Kissinger, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:21 pm to 6:09 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 626-014 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Well, yes, sir, it was President Scalise today, and she told me.
Well, sir, I...
Very good.
Well, a few things.
I pushed the survivors to the, uh...
But she might be on a bus.
Might be in a bus.
That's it.
That's it.
The convention.
In my head.
While you were talking.
That's the piano and the violin.
And there you stayed with the chief.
Very clearly.
The music was, despite what he said, the music was on the stand.
That's where he deployed it.
He said all they have is the violin player.
There's the piano, the violin.
There are three pieces of sheet music on all of them.
I just contained it there.
It's an art book and I'll take it if I have time.
by a team photographer delivered to me today by Fitzsimmons.
And he suggested I can do anything I want with it as long as I don't trace it back to him.
So it kind of really does discredit Meany completely.
I mean, he said they never planned to play it.
Well, they're just sitting right on the machines.
I think some press people would have some fun with that.
I'd like to see if I could get it to a wire service without our getting caught at it.
Yeah, so that we aren't just escaping the crowd.
I think we have to be very careful of that, because he's come out so badly, Mr. President.
Don't let him feel it, but sorry for him.
That's why it's on his illness side as well, which is quite cool.
We have had, by the way, I checked last night, almost 6,700 letters in favor of you and against me that we've received since this, 44 letters that came in against us.
And that has to be about the most overwhelming percentage of mail that we've received.
That's an extraordinary number also.
Consider that totally unsolicited.
And then you read the letters to the editors and you realize how much meaning it's obviously got.
I think following up on your point yesterday about a man going into EPA that we have, a good fellow that we're now going after seriously, Ron Nesson of NBC.
He does the HEW and environmental stuff.
politically neutral, a little bit on the liberal side.
And apparently interested, because he had expressed an interest before in going to work at AGW.
He's sure is the right counterpart to NBC.
And I've got Whitaker and Malach are working together on this clean-up, neighborhoods burger.
And Malach is going to start, is going to approach us, and if he wants to take it, we'll hire him.
put them in with Russ Train or put them in with the Ruckelshaus, one or the other.
And put them in charge of public education campaigns in the environment.
It's perfect.
Oh, God, they'll die over that.
Because it just kills their, it absolutely kills their... You know, the more I've thought about it, it's a damn good idea.
It really is.
We get a great deal of mileage out of this kind of stuff.
Mr. President, when we
put a pro in like we did at agriculture.
We got Claude Gifford in, and he started to build up the mailings, the television program that they have weekly, the radio actualities.
We're trying to do this with each agency, and it's a...
They say buses went a little better today.
Yeah, looks like he's got about an eight-boat lead at the moment.
I don't think he's getting over with it.
They ought to get busy and prove those bad judges.
Well, that'll of course come next.
Mrs. Pornelos is still dragging them.
It's terrible.
Sons of bitches, why'd they do that?
It's just plain politics.
Plain politics.
We've got some people going after them.
Actually, I didn't go after them on that.
Well, this will backfire on Pornelos.
I'm convinced that they'll hurt themselves with the Spanish-speaking population.
Who's putting that over there?
Who's holding it?
Who's doing it?
It's, well, Chris, it's the Finance Committee, and I don't know who on the committee is raising the... Raising the... She's wrong.
Sure, that's the... She's doing the job.
Well, she's not acting anyway.
She's doing the job already.
I think she's acting, yes, sir.
Mark had held firm for us today.
Took some, took a nose out of it.
I knew him when there was a lot of property in the...
The volume picked up very strong, and it ended up a couple of points.
And the fellows on the street think that the recovery is underway, that the market is now going to go up gradually, up and down a little bit.
But this is part of a steady moment.
Well, they had about $14.50.
They had, no, today they had $18, $18.50.
$18.80.
Yes, sir.
What does it tell us?
Well, it would sound...
I would say we brought him all day, but it was, there was traffic taking around noon and then it started back up.
I think what I, what encourages me about up a couple of points of holding is after the threat of the textile veto.
Yeah, that's what I was certain.
That shows that people aren't really that concerned about the textile.
Exactly right.
Which helps us because I think it,
it gives the Democrats a lot less leverage.
We have been today, Mr. President, getting, just looking at Henry Cashin's report to me, the organizations are now beginning to really crank up.
The automobile dealers, the Chamber of Commerce, the forest products people who are very good in the South, the textile and apparel people are really working.
The Petroleum Institute,
claim that they can start really twisting our salons.
All right.
And they're getting some Louisiana oilmen into the area.
So this idea that you heard was my idea, so I had John Anderson float out that idea, and then give free television time to the networks, give us free time.
I didn't hear about that.
That's another way to get at this thing, is to say, I just said, why don't you put in something John said, and rather than substitute for this, just have the network give us free time to hold candidates.
You see the problem, the point is they, it doesn't help them with their past.
I mean, it doesn't help them, it doesn't bring the whole damn thing in.
He was one of the goddamn members of COVID.
They get a lot of freedom.
I mean, they used to.
They do some anyway, you know.
They say they have to give four or five hundred times.
No, you do not.
Anyway, it got the impression across that we are not just frozen in against you on the money side.
I think that's not it.
So I have asked him to do it.
He's doing it in my name.
He says he's got a private investor.
Oh, he would have.
Thank you.
That's one that Pastore has wanted for some time.
I know.
And that might just turn him off on the checkoff.
Well, other than two, is it two?
I don't know.
No.
Although they want debates.
They're very eager for debates.
They've been lobbying, correct, for the repeal of 315.
Well, they were.
So far.
So far.
Well, the repeal of 315...
for all candidates lost yesterday in the House.
I'm sorry, the repeal of 315 for president only lost yesterday in the House.
What will happen is that I think that House bill will go with nothing in it.
The Senate will put it in.
And the Senate will put it in for president only.
Anything we should do about it?
No, you won't be able to on that one.
I'd like to, but that's damn tough to...
That's hard.
That's hard.
That's the only objection in the bill, even though that does... Oh, I don't mean the bill.
Oh, it's for a debate?
Oh, my God, yes.
Oh, no.
1960 was... Oh, I'm sorry.
I put you in on the legislation.
1960 is one thing when you have... Not a candidate is the incumbent, but the President of the United States could not be in a debate.
No, sir.
And I... You just got put on the basis of this.
Don't you go that way.
That's right.
That's right.
Tremendous penalty upon the president, burden upon the president.
It's very bad for the country to put him in that position.
Well, we'll try to turn it into an issue, but it didn't mean that much in 1968.
No.
Well, one thing you've got to, you've got this Dan Wallace thing hanging on there.
Are they taking care of that, or are they going to have a debate, too?
Well, they would have to allot him a certain amount of time.
Well, I would never do that.
I can't get through waiting.
No, what they would do is have a, what the networks are proposing is the repeal of 315, and then a debate between the two major party candidates, and then an allocation of time to Wallace.
Of course, he's happy with that, because that's all gravy to him.
But we'd be in the same situation as 68.
I have a question to Bob.
Have you done anything, because he's like a fellow in the news, do you have any delight in the small Jim Perry of the National Observer, James Perry?
No.
He's always saying that.
He sure is.
I mean, I used to still like him a lot of years ago.
But he's, you know, he's all trying to, very, he is, I think you can check back, I haven't checked back, so see, I'm sure he's, he's acting the same way that, I have my recollection, it's a paradox, and there's basically nothing next to it.
Why don't you have a look around?
But how many rights do you need?
So, how many rights do I have?
But people really don't have connections there.
When I said you need to report, you need to write.
I don't think the circulation is that great, but I guess it does reach influential people.
We seem to always be quoting the National Observer, the News Seminary, and yet I've yet to meet anybody who reads the damn thing.
Well, the New Summit is a national conservative group, but they go a little bit for the offbeat stuff.
They do.
And, you know, you find a little bit of magazine which reaches to that extent.
The New Summit is not basically balanced enough.
I know they should always say that, but really, the main thing about columnists is they know how to have attention to them.
Except for, they're waiting.
I don't think they're waiting.
That's what they're trying to get you to do.
They're trying to get you to read and spell and face the knowledge.
I find that he's playing the Muskie line very heavily.
What do you think of that?
I mean, his line there, was it, oh, the Muskie's running along well, and he's wanting to do whatever he wants, or anything?
Oh, my God, I don't know how it's based, you know.
Not much evidence other than, like, Symington and Eagleton, and then the Eater, Brampton, and Moss cannot punch.
He has picked up in the last month some named Democrats.
Missouri, Utah.
Missouri, Utah.
But that's really all he's gained.
He hasn't gained a hell of a lot else.
He hasn't gained much in the party workers.
He hasn't gained anything in California.
That'll be hard out there.
It'll go easy out there.
He's putting all of his eggs into the Florida Basin.
Hoping to knock Jackson off there.
Figuring that if he knocks Jackson off there and has a big win in New Hampshire...
He'll leave Jackson for Florida.
I would think so, but, you know, that's one that I think they're playing cleverly.
They're playing him there.
The Muskie people are playing him as an underdog in Florida.
I don't think he's... Oh, correct.
He couldn't be an underdog in Florida.
Well, he's next to Coles.
They deal with... That's what Jackson's going to make his... What about New Hampshire as he starts to end in New Hampshire?
So he is considered.
I don't think he's going to be.
Who do you think is going to be there running?
Is it Kennedy or Eisenhower?
No, I think you'll have a good rating.
I think McGovern will do a little better than people think because there is a left fringe that will go for McGovern.
Yorty will pick up 15 to 20 percent of the Democrats, or Jackson.
If Jackson is there, we'll pick up a large... Jackson would run well against Muskie among rank and file.
But everybody's figuring that for 80% of the vote, and he isn't going to get it.
What do you figure?
80% of the vote?
That's what the press is playing.
Bullshit.
He'll never get that.
No.
I think he'll get 45.
I would think just below 50.
That's right.
And if Jackson goes in on Humphrey, he'll get what?
If Jackson goes in, he would...
If Jackson goes in, he's not going to get Wisconsin.
I would think he would.
He could be very strong.
Yeah.
I would think that would be a safe word at this point.
I see McCloskey still running around.
Yeah.
Not making much sense.
Not making much sense.
It's hard to get off there.
George Romney did the same thing.
I mean, he did the coffee clutches.
He was on a local program here this weekend, Newsmakers.
And he did a fair job.
He's smooth, and he's plausible, and he looks attractive, but he sure as hell hasn't made a bunch of impressions with the Republican organization, damn little.
And with Vietnam gone next year, I just don't see where he's going to make any time.
By the time he gets to New Hampshire, he's going to be watching Vietnam.
So I'll give you the latest McCracken economic report.
Paul raised at the 850 meeting this morning.
Well, he raised the conference board survey, which is the first big increase since 1968.
New orders for durable goods, but the big one is the one that Commerce is going to announce seriously, and I've talked to Pastor and Jim Lynn about building it up, is the quarterly fine equipment survey, which shows a 6.6% rise looking into the next two quarters of
72.
That's very, very strong.
That's a very bullish figure.
That will... Something may be happening.
I think it is, Mr. President.
You know, our friend, Kelvin Friedman, said a whole lot in his theory on the steam and the boiler.
But don't worry.
He said this four months ago, five months ago.
He had policies that you needed in policy.
I don't know where.
Probably there.
Well, you know, it was ironic this morning.
I was just
dumbstruck at the 815 staff meeting, because Paul McCracken said that some very significant economic news this week, and it is very encouraging.
Here he's now, he's resigned.
My God, he's beginning to talk bullish.
If he talked that way over the last year, it would have been a hell of a lot better.
He also quoted to the meeting this morning the weekly rate of insured unemployment being down two-tenths of one percent.
during the month of November over October.
But he's still there on the promise to go up?
No, Hodgson thinks it's likely to go up.
McCracken is the one who thinks it may edge down a bit.
Why does Hodgson think it's going to go up?
He's looked at their preliminary projections.
He thinks it will stay the same or maybe go up a tenth.
But Paul this morning said he thought it was going to go down.
He said that there isn't always a correlation, but there is.
often is, and if there is, then the actual unemployed insured figure was down two-tenths of one percent in the month of November.
Well, actually, in terms of the unemployment, it can't come down every month, and if it did, we'd be down to three percent.
You can get down to a tenth of a percent in the month, you know, two-thirty, two-five.
Yeah, but it's been a little bit off the wall.
So we've got to bounce around.
I just frankly think that the, frankly, I think the president on the bottom line is, is, is, and Conley believes this, is, is enough.
It is, if it weren't for the bitching about a collection crime, it keeps the labor market a little better.
Especially when you take the veterans out, as I told you yesterday.
It's got a hell of a difference.
Well, you'd be down to, no, you'd be down to about 5%.
Actually, if you took out all the marginal categories, you'd be down, if, if you kept it like you used to keep it in the 60s, you'd be down 5%.
And even then, I think there's some distortions in it.
I would like to get just under 5% by next October.
We'd be in great shape.
Anywhere in that bracket, you're right.
I think that's right.
I think there's a possibility.
Oh, I think so, too.
If these figures, Mr. President, are as significant this week as I think they are when you couple them with last week,
and with all the strong consumer figures, then we're on a very good track.
Pastor told me today when I called him about having a press conference, he said, hell, they haven't, except for the trade figure, they haven't seen a bad economic figure for business over the next several weeks.
All of these, the revision of the GMB, the retail sales, the quarterly plant and equipment, the advanced business indicators, the durable goods, they're all very strong.
And that's beginning to come through the business community.
I noticed the atmosphere.
Well, the last few days, the wires in the last few days have attributed market increase to the good economic statistics coming out of Washington.
Both days, they have said the
The song going in the market today was either the...
It's the politicians who are bearish and immediate people.
They agree psychologically.
All those things.
Yes, sir?
Well, thank you.
Goodbye.
Thank you for putting it down for your ex.
You're welcome.
Keep it going.
Thank you.
Yes, it makes me think about it.
And then here you can put it.
Yes.
You know what the situation is on our own?
Speak to the old host.
The old host needs you.
All right.
Everybody who talked to me about it told me it went extremely well.
Do you have any questions?
Yeah, the trouble is, I was all set.
I made a mistake.
They didn't ask me about India-Pakistan.
I really had a knockout of an answer.
But I think it's just as well not to top the news of your trip.
I had all the facts.
It was a pity, I mean, to have shot it right out there.
because you should have disciplined the bureaucracy.
Well, we'll try tomorrow.
And why don't we now let... Why don't we let State put out the embargo?
But on the whole, Scali thought it was the best I've ever done, which is a little bit...
But Sector, for example, saw Alderman to interview him about your cover,
And he told all the men that he thought it was outstanding.
Good.
That's great.
What I did was I followed your outline.
One question was, why is the president who never believed in symmetry suddenly running all over the world?
I said, now, just a minute.
Let's get this thing into perspective.
You read the president's first press conference.
Let's take P-6 step by step.
Let's take P-5 first.
Peking is a special case, because we are reopening diplomacy after an isolation of 25 years.
That is a decision in which the basic decision has to be taken at the highest level first, so that then the support nets can implement it.
And as you have seen from recent developments, without mentioning them, there are problems on lower levels.
So Peking, we have worked on for three years
lower levels, and now they're carrying it to the summit.
Now you take the Soviet Union, I bet you take the president to his press conference, and you will find that every single condition he has set, I didn't say condition, but every single circumstance he has defined as necessary for a summit has been carried out.
And I've picked them all.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good.
All right, fine.
No.
No.
Sure.
Thank you.
That has, in fact, been carried out.
And he said there has to be some progress at lower levels.
He said there has been progress, and that gave me good chance to pick it up.
He said that progress in one area is progress in another area.
That's been carried out.
He said that trade will follow political progress.
That has been carried out.
And having done all these things, and he mentioned to Holden, and after all, Bob didn't ask him how I did.
He volunteered to Bob.
He said that was the particular thing.
Then I said, now let's take the Allies.
The President had always had Allied relationships close to his heart.
The first trip he made after becoming President was to Europe.
Now look at the changes that have occurred since June.
It gave me good chance to tick off all of those.
said, now as we move into this fast-moving situation, the President felt it essential to have this, to have these meetings, and they were all nodding.
And it was, then I had planted a question about Conway.
And I stated, I read, in effect, I didn't read it, I spoke what we, he and I, had agreed on in the morning, and I said, now I just want to add another thing.
All these sets are being taken, not just with a concurrence, but at the recommendation of Secretary Connolly, who is the President's principal advisor on economic matters, and all the other figures that appear do participate in the decision-making process, but Secretary Connolly is the principal advisor.
And then lots of questions about...
Why are you calling your answer on that?
Lots of questions about China.
A very tricky one.
What do we think about Taiwan?
How is that going to be settled?
Well, I said, we hope it will be settled by direct negotiations between the two Chinese governments.
He said, well, what do you, does that mean?
What does that mean?
I said, well, both Chinese governments say they represent all of China.
So,
I said, but we maintain our defense commitment to Taiwan.
I couldn't say anything less.
The Chinese won't, the Peking won't like that, but they will like the fact that I stayed away from a two-China solution.
Oh, yeah.
Then they asked me, Mrs. Nixon, what's your schedule going to be?
I said, as in every other place she's visited, she will have her own schedule.
It will be very full.
Good.
And she will concentrate on those things which I, after the Chinese conditions, she has done so successfully on all previous trips.
Good.
That's great.
And...
They asked about many things.
Yes.
What did you say?
Oh, I danced all over it.
I said, well, we have applications for three regiments, and I can tell you that it would be much less... You're all pregnant, aren't you?
Yeah, and I've heard it will be less than at any previous presidential trip, but we are pushing the Chinese to go as far as their physical and technical capabilities permit, and the Chinese have adopted a very cooperative attitude.
Why not stick the Chinese with the low numbers?
I asked about television.
I said, well, we've put the case to them, and they've never had a problem like this before.
They're studying it.
Their attitude is very cooperative.
All of it will be settled at the next event.
They are going to build a ground station.
I beg your pardon?
They are going to build a ground station.
Oh, yeah, they are.
That's for specifications.
They want to stop building it right now.
And they're going to put a terminal in the hang shop.
That, they, you know, there was some news story this morning that it was said, et cetera.
Do they know what hang shop is?
Well, they said it's Hang Chow picked so that he can see Mao.
They have set where the meeting with Mao is going to be.
I said his first meeting with Mao will be in Peking.
I don't care to speculate where the other meetings will be.
To get across... No, I... Well, everyone thought it went very well, but you can never... Well, you can tell whether the trend is...
I think your decision not to go today was absolutely right.
Because this will dominate the news tomorrow.
Sure.
And for me to go, I would have been in a tax bill, and I would have been in a bus, and a lot of crap, you know.
I might meet with the press if the India-Pakistan thing is still cooking next Monday.
Yeah.
Let the state put out this stuff, and when the Indians...
The Indians will shape up.
What we have decided to do, Mr. President, if you agree, is we cut off all new licenses.
which is $17 million and which will ground their C-19s, plus all ammunition.
No liberal can scream about the fact that they're cutting off ammunition easily if it's already lost.
That's another million bucks.
That's extreme.
They're those Indians, aren't you?
Oh, yeah.
It's got some advantage that I didn't step out from.
They put the state out from.
I wonder if the Chinese...
No, there's snow in the Himalayas.
They can't do it.
They don't mind.
You know, any time they want to gobble it up, they can do it in a couple of days, a couple of weeks.
They certainly get them a terrific lover.
They don't get respect for it.
No.
Yeah, now, on the end, you see, there are two issues.
One is the mutual balance force reduction.
The other is European Security Conference.
On the mutual balance force reduction, the major issue is that we invented it four years ago to stop Mansfield.
The Europeans picked it up in order to keep us from making a bilateral and a unilateral reduction.
Now, we have examined it, and I'll present that tomorrow.
We've examined 17 options.
Every single one of them makes the military situation worse.
Now, it is essential, Mr. President, that you instruct the state that you want the discussion in a security context.
That is, we have to find options that do not make the situation worse.
And we can find some.
Because if we get into the never-never land of just putting forward proposals to have a proposal, and that
You want state, and state isn't opposing this.
The second issue is the European Security Conference.
The Soviet strategy, obviously, is to have a sort of a nothing conference, after which they can say, now NATO is not necessary anymore.
And we don't want a European Security Conference prior to the summit.
I think it would be bad for you.
Oh, gosh, yeah.
So...
And we have two delaying tactics.
One is to say we want to wait until the Berlin Agreement is finished.
The second is to say we want the Western Deputy Foreign Minister's meeting first to adopt a common position.
And that will get us through June.
Then I suppose that you could, you are using just maybe one thing that could come out of the summit.
It's the beginning of exploratory talks.
But you see, the Russian gambit is to say, let the ambassadors in Finland start exploratory talks.
And it's possible that the state will say, after all, exploratory talks don't mean anything, but that's like the Middle East.
The Russians will agree to anything in these exploratory talks to get the big show going.
Because there isn't enough of an issue left to permit us to drag our lead.
If
What amassage is intended for Trump?
Peter isn't much.
Well, he's right.
Jesus Christ.
Well, so we might have to say we don't like him, but I don't.
But my major concern is that you order as much delay as we can and that we shouldn't agree at this NATO meeting to anything very forthcoming on the European Security Conference.
Well, they sort of are for two reasons.
One, because they want to kill MBFR, and two, because they think the Germans are running large.
But I think your position ought to be you want to talk to the heads of state personally about this, and until then, you don't want any commitment to it.
Why do we say the heads of state?
To whom?
Why do we say the heads of state?
I had to ask the director of political affairs in my office, I said, the strength of de Gaulle was that when something was a fraud, he said it was a fraud.
And...
I would say to Pompidou that the worst mistake he can make is to try to run in the same direction as the Germans and try to beat them.
That right now the Germans wouldn't dare to go along to a security conference.
Brunt has been pushing for it, but Brunt is out there.
I know, yes.
I see.
Well, Satan, to state the lie, brought your signal.
Fine, he's not pushing for it at the moment.
But that's right.
That's right, he's... Is he or is he?
No, he's not.
Of course, over there, those people are running around pushing for it.
Well, you know, Henry, if we just pull these bandits together, it's going to be hard to be in line.
It's a jury road, isn't it?
It's a jury road.
Goddamn, you need to just pace it down.
Well, we are talking to the Tracy Eds, and the minute the Senate gets out of town, we are going to do the three-day trial.
We are in an unestatable position.
We made a sweeping proposal to them on October 11th.
They haven't even acknowledged it.
No one heard it.
I expect that we'll hear next week.
I want to see how far we've come since we've been in this office.
I talked to Henry Grant today.
He was doing a book on your foreign policy.
He would like to see you again.
He's seen you once.
He's requested it of Siegfried.
I think there's a better than 50-50 chance that it will be a very favorable thought.
I'm not recommending the meeting, but... Before the end of the year, I'd prefer it.
But he says, if he thinks how far we've come, I said, look Henry, if we had predicted on January 26, 1969, everything that was done in foreign policy, what would you say?
He, of course, was told by State that they set up the Peking trip.
My Peking trip.
He didn't do that.
He was out there.
I said, Henry, look.
Father, what has happened to you?
You haven't gone into camp, have you?
They had it all set to you before.
There's no need for discussion over here.
I said, Henry, you know, at the same time, I said, Henry, if you go with stuff like this and the documents become available, you'll look like a fool.
Documents aren't repaired.
They are.
They're conclusive.
Do you realize... Rogers must know that, don't you think?
I have realized, Mr. President, that we have sent 46 messages to the Chinese.
Yeah.
Outside of... Don't you feel that Rogers must know that we've got to defend Rogers?
Why is he going to get out there and damn them?
Boy, if they're going to put it out one day, it's going to devastate them.
He's very petulant.
He's like a child.
You want him?
But he doesn't care about it.
Two months from now, he cares about tomorrow.
Wow.
So you're going to be with the senator tomorrow?
Yes.
And he's giving a talk in the evening, and he won't refuse, and he won't let us see the text.
His whole passion is to get credit for things, Henry, get credit for things.
Yeah, but he won't do the work to get the credit.
You have no interest in the work.
No, he doesn't do the intellectual work, Mr. President.
He doesn't do the reading you do.
He doesn't do the... You've got to know the subject.
If the press took him seriously, he would be the clipper of your administration.
The only thing that has kept him from being the cleverest of his administration is that the press doesn't take him from him.
They just don't believe that he is, you know.
And they don't believe that he's heavyweight enough to do it, to bring these things up.
I mean, he told Henry Truist, hell, the man I got along with best in the state was Elliot Richardson.
who was a heavyweight.
We don't need a weak man over there.
Now, Willis has got this goddamn flippant attitude.
He just, you know, he gets impatient when we start to get into philosophical discussions.
Well, that's what I mean.
That's where he misses the point.
He doesn't realize that those philosophical discussions really set the tone for the notion of truth.
Exactly.
I'm going to talk to the business council tomorrow night.
They don't deserve you to talk to them.
Well, Flanagan thought they would.
Why you?
Flanagan thought it would do the administration good.
Well, it would do the administration good to be talking about it, but they did such a bunch of bad anyways.
We can wrap up this NSC meeting and now the old folks, there's an hour and a half even.
Sorry.
It doesn't end.
It must remain, though.
Let me know deep down.
Deep down, I think a lot of fellows in the press were hoping for the last time in the state that it would come home.
The president stated how to screw this trip, and you may really have to talk to Rogers.
I mean, Rogers, for example, yesterday told Henry Truitt,
that we are sacrificing India to get a cheap trip to China.
Now, that is just cannot be said by the Secretary of State to a press guy.
Sacrifice India, for Christ's sake.
There's nothing good in it.
Why doesn't he come in here and say that he doesn't like India?
He doesn't, there isn't a, there isn't a, there isn't a, besides, we are not even doing the full recommendation.
And Henry Brand told me that I should be careful what I say because...
Instead, they're putting out the word that I've been brainwashed by the Chinese.
And it's just ridiculous.
So much hangs on it for us.
I have no illusions about the goddamn Chinese, and you have less than anybody.
But the right is to suck it.
For people to come in and, you know, pander around, feel nice and flattered and arrested.
The Russians wouldn't be where they are now if they weren't scared out of their minds with the Chinese.
That's what's giving us flexibility.
You remember how for a year we were trying to get the thing set up.
And the change had come.
We had planned for that.
Not that many of the four of us were first.
Yes, sir.
First of all, my soul, with Mr. Gandhi, and with the faith, and the beauty, there's, it doesn't just remain, but all over the world we've been planting these seeds.
For Christ's sakes, we're sacrificing India for the trip.
Oh, for Christ's sakes.
Did you read what he said that I said?
I know what he said.
Ask John Scali.
He's heard it.
I did.
Henry drew it to John Scali.
That's weird.
What does Scali say?
Scali is sick of it.
He must be in the State Department.
What's his deal with the gentleman on the right?
Scali says that if anyone had told him when he came over here what's going on, he would have thought that we'd all lost our minds.
But he's not old.
He says it's the most unbelievable, sickening thing he's ever seen.
Because the fact is, Mr. President, in three years here, no one has ever been able... We have never said one word against Stade out of here to the press.
Hell, we've built them up.
We've given them credit for things they didn't do.
God, yes, including the chapter.
Jesus Christ, when we brought Rogers out there and... Every newsman who interviews me, I say, Rogers is in on everything.
He sees every message.
Well, this is so that we're sacrificing India for China.
Good God.
I'm supposed to be sacrificing... You see, all that... Mr. President, there's nothing to sacrifice in India to begin with.
Of course.
What more can they do to us than what they're doing?
If we do nothing, they will add contempt to complete disregard.
If we take a tough line, they will either move to come back into our good graces, or they will move into the Russian camp.
They move into the Russian camp, it will drive the Chinese over to us.
In the Russian camp, they're not going to do any more than they're already doing.
What does Bill Burns do?
Do you think now that he's really on a switch on the Jew thing, Jewish, in order to get the votes?
No.
You know what?
I'll put it this way.
He knows why he's going to be Bill Rogers.
He's a bad press.
Now, so do I.
But I will not sacrifice for him.
But I think maybe he's finally made a determination in order to get a better press, he's got to start being a little better in these ratings.
And I think maybe that's what's involved here.
I mean, I don't think so.
But I agree.
I agree.
The last wrong is a slip.
Oh, it's the worst reason.
Moreover, Mr. President, he's broken his pick with Adrian.
He doesn't make any difference what he does.
As long as he screwed it up the way he screwed it up to put it in order, he's the heavy, and you're the good guy.
That helps the administration, it helps the country, and it helps you.
That will help us set up the Russian deal.
But if he's going to switch and try to get to the left of you on the Israeli issue, we're in trouble.
Because then we've got nothing left to do.
Yes, sir.
To scare the Israelis.
Now we are in danger.
I'm glad you didn't do the greeting on us.
That's a very, very, very good, you know what I mean?
I'm glad you didn't, all right.
But I may take them just a little bit more.
And I may, Mr. President, have to leave.
Thank you, brother, and put us to ban on them, yes.
I just think that before I may have to stay out of line so that he doesn't go to the crest of tomorrow night and go way off again.
Maybe things are not just the same like it is.
Well, what do you do, Mr. Kemp?
Mr. Kemp says it.
Mr. Kemp.
Oh, Kemp.
Me?
Yeah.
I think it will play a little bit, as I have shifted a little bit, on Ty Gordon, but I think it will set it upon itself.
But what else can we do?
The only other thing we could have said is, we are in favor of China.