Conversation 628-002

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I'm sorry to interrupt you.

On the Secretary Connolly's remarks, or not his remarks, but the reports out of the Group 10 meeting, I'll be asked about the gold situation.

My inclination is to stay totally away from it.

I'll be asked about the change in price of gold as the administration moved on that.

Is that correct?

And it's much better to say no comment.

No comment on this.

It's a matter of interest.

No comment will be at the end of what we've said before.

No, what we've said before is simply that we have no intention of changing the price of gold.

And that's what Rob will say.

I'm not going to comment on the discussions.

Right.

I'm not going to comment on the discussions.

No, no, no.

Okay.

Two things.

One, about the Kennedy atonement tonight, and the other one about the

meeting this afternoon.

I've sent you in some talking points which follow what the press said to you yesterday.

But that isn't the heart of the issue.

I saw her yesterday just to prepare for the meeting.

And I said to her that

The other thing I want to know, what do you want me to get across?

I don't know.

Bullshit.

He's concerned that we don't have a, from his side, apparently, that there's not the evidence of anything about him.

I am taking hard line under, as you know, I hate reassuring her, but I don't give her anything.

So, apparently, he wants to move off of that, apparently.

Is that it?

Well, on the phantom,

His line is that you should say we agree in principle and that Cisco and Dravin should work out the details and they should show some flexibility.

Yes, I would say that.

But this won't be the heart of the issue as far as she's concerned.

I said to her, because you have said it, that we cannot avoid a discussion of the Middle East at the summit.

I put it on that page.

You said it in your press conference.

It would be one of the things.

And that if it is discussed at the summit, there obviously will have to be some deterrent or prior to the summit.

I wanted to set up...

She is willing, as long as we handle it, to do the following, to let us have an interim agreement to emerge out of the summit and to have some other discussions on an overall agreement.

She would like you to say that you will not press them.

It cannot be on the basis of the plan.

and that you will not press them for a settlement.

Now you have to decide whether you're prepared to say this.

What she would like you, what she's going to ask you, I said I can't make any commitment.

She'll have to raise it with you.

She will say she doesn't mind us having direct contacts with her.

If it's done out of the White House.

Secondly, if you agree that you will not propose a settlement on the basis of Mirage's plan.

Mirage's plan is the 67th Frontier.

I've already had some preliminary discussions with the brief, which indicates that they might be willing to give on that a little.

Do you have any... Just...

Yes, sir.

What's the doubt?

We don't know.

The advantage of doing this, I frankly am not going to get into these negotiations, but the advantage is it would get us again if we don't get into the negotiations.

I think the sequence will be that there'll be military action started this spring in order to bring pressure on us prior to the summit.

I think that is what these conversations between President and Sadat make pretty clear.

Secondly, there won't be an interim agreement.

This would give us a year, and if after the election we do bring pressure on them, she may be able to cry foul, but so what?

I mean, I'm being quite cynical about it.

The major thing now is to get through this.

Well, what we, I think we, what we would, we can meet part of their needs.

I think we can tell the Russians that the Russian man won't fly with the Israelis and that they have to make some additional concessions.

But we did that on Berlin, for example, where we got a better deal from them.

Where we got a better deal from the Russians than our own offer was, of February.

I think it gives her the face-saving formula by which she can agree.

and that would be the key of your discussion if you can get that then you don't even have to commit yourself to that finally for example to bring in as you may have seen in my last conversation

I told him that in my judgment, in these preliminary talks, the Israelis would never agree to having only UN people in Sharm el-Sheikh, which is what the Rajah's plan is.

He said that he thought they would accept an Israeli presence as long as it wasn't military.

Well, you know, how you define military is...

Coming back to take this stand.

The main question is this.

Do you want me to be taught conciliatory or what?

I recommend it.

Then I'd be conciliatory.

I'd be conciliatory.

So I want you to know you're always on your side.

You can count on me.

You're going to get this.

And I hope you told her, tell her who's been ordering up the top then.

I have ordered everything up today.

That's why I went to see you.

I had to simply say that Rogers is not taking the client, but I won't do the case.

Why don't you put it that way?

Yeah, the client is still unacceptable to them because he's still pressing them.

Oh, I see.

On that damn... On that damn balance.

Yes.

That's acceptable.

That is acceptable.

What's he pressing them on?

Well, he's pressing them on these negotiations in close proximity.

Now, they will not negotiate with the State Department.

They distrust Rogers and they distrust Cisco totally.

And they just won't yield.

They'll just phase it out for a year.

I think you'll find that.

On the other hand, if you wanted to go...

For me, it's suicide to get involved in these negotiations because it will turn the Jews and everyone else against me.

So I don't want to do it.

I believe, however, that without our getting involved out of here, there's going to be a blow-up in the Middle East next spring.

Well, I thought we might...

No, no, you can trust their discretion.

What you have to decide is, do you want to surface that Russian offer to them?

I'd be tempted to say, look, I'll say that I am.

I just came up.

I don't know, I don't want to blow it, but do you think she'll blow it in terms of money?

I want to be certain it's the offer.

Do you think we're, or is she just going to piss off?

I don't know.

Well, she'll piss on it a little, but what she may say is, go ahead as long as you do it.

And the advantage to us is you could come out of the summit with an interim agreement.

You could have a guarantee of no blow up in the Middle East, at least through the summit.

I mean, it's not that they blow up, I think the Egyptians.

The Egyptian Soviet strategy is that if the negotiations don't work,

It's to get a brawl started so that it has to be settled.

If you read these Breshnev-Sadat conversations, you'll see...

But I haven't put this part of the thing in the talking points because... Well...

Or you can do it in a more guarded way.

Yes.

Just a couple quick scheduled things for today that you may or may not want to do before lunch.

Oh, I want to do.

Well, I've got to study these things.

One is a quick handshake with our architecture before he leaves in town.

I'll see her after the woman leaves and before I take off the top.

Okay.

The other is one that if you're here, of course, I'm not going to do it.

We've got the...

Hits of Sears pennies and federated stores all the time for the business council meeting.

They could come over and spend a couple minutes with you, tell you how retail sales are going.

It would be purely a device to get a retail sale.

Boom, store, they've got, they're giving you a 10% gain.

No, it isn't half-assed at all.

They're all cranked up.

They're very positive on phase two.

Their Thanksgiving was the biggest in history for all three of them.

They're predicting a nine to ten percent increase in December.

That'll be an all-time Christmas record sale, which they'd like to predict.

And they'll be announcing these November figures in the next quarter.

I met with the business council last night on foreign policy.

They're high on everything, actually.

They're not complaining.

and on foreign policy very sadly.

They really didn't deserve it.

I wish Flanagan had asked me on that.

You know what I mean?

I did it because Flanagan asked me.

I know you did.

Flanagan is, Flanagan is responsible, John.

Let me tell you the thing.

You know, I want you to know, you're our biggest gun.

I mean, I'll be cold for a minute.

You're our biggest gun.

You are so big.

that you don't realize it yourself.

We cannot waste you with a bunch of bastards that are only with us on that.

I mean, understand, I didn't mean to do any harm.

I didn't, I don't get it.

But believe me, don't, I'd rather have you sit and contemplate your naval thing than go address it to the consulate.

You should read on the honor.

Well, why don't I clear every appearance with Bob?

I have no political judgment, and I do it only for the honor.

You can't imagine how many people ask me because we haven't touched it.

I say no.

Well, the thing that's wrong is also I don't want to ask you.

We ought to be sketching this.

We've got a lot of currencies that you've all forgotten how hard to get.

By the way, you should do the same.

Now, it's not like you do magazines.

That's essential.

But these are easy, right?

Well, I will...

The only interest I have in talking to these groups is to...

I will clear it from now on any appearance.

Uh...

before a group.

I'll do it automatically.

I prefer to do it that way.

We ought to generate some big audiences.

For example, I still get letters from that out of Los Angeles.

Oh, certainly.

Well, that's why we're going to do that in several other cities.

Los Angeles, I'll do.

Yeah, well, exactly.

Chicago, we did that.

Well, what I thought of this would be to bring Metcalfe Fatten and Lazarus in, right at the noon hour, right?

I sat next to Fatten at dinner, and he's enthusiastic about it.

Just let him tell you this.

Could it be?

Does it have to be there, or could I do my study and see him at 2 o'clock?

Sure.

What would be best for that?

It doesn't really make much difference.

They're a business company, and they don't do this now.

We do.

No, if you want to study now and do that later, I thought it would be easier for you now.

And the other thing, and the same with Fletcher, which I think we ought to run by because we need to keep.

That's our only real tie to that.

Life is self.

And that would just be a hand-shaking wish and love.

Thank you very much.

And the other one is a strong recommendation that after Golda Meir, before you leave, that we swear an oath of us and get it done and then let him announce the corn.

It would be a good thing for him.

Well, he will.

The argument there, though, is to swear him in fast and without any

Falderall, and then let him tomorrow announce, as Secretary, announce the corn business so that that's the news story rather than his narrow Senate vote, because he's gonna, he's gonna sweep by.

I'm gonna do something on the farm.

Well, frankly, he thinks he is.

I don't.

Frankly, you have some announcement on corn price, of course.

I haven't got a lot of time today.

I'd love to know where he is.

I've been trying to get it down to the butt so that he can put it in the shell.

What they want to do is override the boat story as fast as they can to get it in.

Sure, you can do something about it, but I suggest that maybe the best thing is to do it all on two.

I can't do but slap it in the heart and sweet-set it in her eye.

Okay, then have the business counselor, too, if that's all right.

All right.

I'll catch the man after that.

Okay.

All right.

Maybe the way to handle this Russian office, rather than say it's a concrete office, is to say, look, they have said to us they want to discuss this.

They want to discuss this with us at the summit.

If I can get some withdrawal of their forces at the summit.

I don't like to talk at the summit without having some proprietary talks.

With us.

Uh-huh.

My recommendation is to tell them this much because the Russians may tell something to the Egyptians and then they'll pick it up there.

This way you can say you have told them that we'll talk to the Russians.

My estimate is... What is their position?

Well, their position is that they have...

They just want more justice.

No, no.

Their position is that they have...

The trouble is that Cisco has consistently misled them.

And they just don't believe anything he says.

Their position is, I think, if you were the partner, for example, I told her yesterday just what you said to me.

I said, now look, you can't keep saying no.

Tell me, for the president, what are you willing to do on the interim settlement?

Well, actually, what she's willing to do for you

is it doesn't go as far as what rajas is pushing them to do but i think i think it's within the range of what's settled myself i i i believe that if we worked with the freedom in that framework that we could have an interim settlement i i haven't looked into every detail but so they are willing to move back for example they've told us 10 kilometers they've told me

close to 40.

They want to be at the western end of the passes.

Rogers wants them to be beyond the passes.

They want to control the passes.

I don't want to bore you with the details.

I think that can be worked out.

Rogers wants them to permit troops to go across.

He's told me they won't give Rogers anything, but they'll let policemen come across.

Well, hell, if they dress troops in policeman uniform, who's going to check it?

So, you see what I mean?

I think this is the sort of deal that they could work out with you, whom they trust, that they will not work out with Rogers and Cisco.

On the overall settlement, they're going to be tough as nails.

But the problem that arises is this.

If there's nothing at all,

I think the middle, the strategy of the Egyptians and Russians would be to get enough of a war started to jeopardize the summit and to force us into a settlement at the summit anyway.

And therefore, I would think that we can, we could accept your condition that it wouldn't be the Rajah's plan

used it to gain time.

If the Russians play ball and modify the position, we've gotten them that much.

They won't modify it by much, but at least they'll modify it a little.

If they don't modify their position, they're no birds off than they are today.

Well, I would say about the jets that, look, I cannot

Just give you the checks, unless there is something going on in the negotiating field.

But I will tell you the following.

We can agree to you, with you today in principle, to give you the patterns.

Then let Cisco and Rafi work out the details.

And we will instruct Cisco that he should be forthcoming in the details.

Cisco is a board on that.

And all he needs is a written instruction from you to do that.

And Raj is sort of sitting on the fence, but he'll go along if that's what emerges out of the discussion.

But I would link this, I wouldn't just give them the jets for free.

I would sort of say you have to understand my problem in preparing for the summit.

We're going to discuss it there.

Right.

She won't like that.

I think she won't like it, but at least it's honest.

And I have told her, I really, the major reason

I said I want to talk to her as a friend, as somebody she's known for a long time.

I said I want you to know one thing.

The man who's held it all together has been the President.

Every shipment that you've received has been on the personal order of the President.

Every attempt that has been made to...

To throttle you, the President has personally taken a look at it.

On the other hand, we do have this problem.

There has to be some negotiation.

And, you know, she would prefer no negotiation.

There's no doubt about that.

But, as you said to me the other day, Mr. President, I think you belong to us.

I've always told you

At some point, we'll have to squeeze it.

Yeah, we'll have to do it.

But we don't want to squeeze it.

We've got to squeeze it.

But it's in their interest.

And that's something we've got to guarantee.

But I don't think you want to do it in 72 to be embroiled in a million words.

I'm not going to do it.

I'll throw the name off to you in time to time.

We will have a picture taken of you and her alone.

And I'll come in with Rafi and have to depress it out, but we will put out a depress that you met alone.

Of course.

And so that there are no hurt feelings, it's said.

Let me ask a couple of questions.

What is the story that I read in the news summary of the biggest Cambodian defeat of the war?

Well, the North Vietnamese are bringing a lot of pressure on the Cambodians right now.

Biggest defeat of the war.

You remember, every December they suffer the biggest defeat of the war.

This isn't anything more than that.

It's just serious, but not... No, it's not.

It's a disaster.

What is the situation?

What are we doing for help and so forth from the South Vietnamese?

Well, the South Vietnamese are running this operation, I'm afraid, rather.

That loss of the Trenuel trees, the disaster, which I have got in there, is very cautious.

We are doing a lot of farming in there now.

Yeah.

And... What do you think we are going to do?

I don't think they've done enough there.

They want to prevent Cambodia from consolidating itself.

I think that's their major objective.

What about the other reports?

Are Vietnam and MiG now?

That is true.

We're going to take out these airfields in the three days, Troy.

The air sort of things are?

Yes.

Have the MiGs been up yet?

Yes.

And they launched?

They haven't attacked anybody yet.

This will be fun.

Thank you.

Not many, about 20 plants.

If we go, we go on a sneak strike, we get them all, shouldn't we?

Yes.

Well, the way we do things... Goddamn, they break it.

Why can't we?

Mr. President, they...

It'll leak, I hope.

No, it won't just leak.

We do things so bureaucratically that...

For one thing, for Christ's sake, can I get, can you tell the Mortar that I am not satisfied with Ryan?

I want a young, Air Force man that will come here and be in charge of this thing.

How can we do that?

I'll have you tell the head.

All right.

And until then, we've got to have somebody in charge of this thing.

Why do you question me?

I have to tell the head.

If you were, because Mortar doesn't appoint a service chief, it's, uh, a service chief.

I've got to have somebody we can rely on to do this job.

If I may, Mr. President, I'd like to bring Moro in next week to brief you on these strikes, and then you can pick the toughest one.

And then it's a presidential order, because defense is dancing all over him again.

They are?

Yes.

But we'll have Packard in with us.

So Packard will be in Europe, so we'll have Packard and Moro.

You just have to come?

Within a week after that.

Okay, thank you.

But whenever...

The week after Congress gets out of session.

Oh, yeah.

What about the goddamn Indians?

Well, now, Mr. President, here, I hate to come in here all the time, but the goddamn State Department screwed us again.

How?

Well...

Because I try to be too cute.

It's my fault.

You remember, I recommended to you to cut off only new licenses.

So instead of emphasizing what we've cut off, they've emphasized what's still going on.

May I do this?

Today, I mean, within ten minutes, like...

All right, we'll announce it in ten minutes.

We'll announce it tomorrow.

Governor, announce it today.

Okay.

I want to announce while I am here today, ten minutes, about a minute.

I am pissed off.

I saw it in the paper.

You just say the president personally has written this out.

All right, let me call it.

To cancel the old license, sir.

Yeah, I want to make it so few.

That's right.

I'm going to screw around with the time.

Follow by, okay?

We're about free.

Should I say it in my order?

No, this is clear enough that you just signed it and put it in an initial contact.

Contact, yes.

That's essential.

It's about time you started pulling things.

You're right, mister.

I can't believe it.

You're trying to pull out such horrible things.

Yeah, it is.

Believe it or not, I got a full ass on it.

Kennedy is willing to accept the ambassadorship to NATO, but he's raising a number of conditions.

He wants a statement by you that he has a broad new assignment, that he will remain ambassador at large and a member of the cabinet.

Will that be sort of spoken?

That's easy.

Second, an understanding that he will be consulted on all NFC matters and meetings affecting his areas of responsibility.

That's easy.

An understanding that he can attend all the meetings of Pompidou, Brandt, Heath and Sato.

I don't have any closing problem now.

An understanding that Schoetzel and Greenwald, the ambassadors in Europe, have to keep him closely informed on the economic issues.

Sure.

Sure, easy.

And an upgrading of his Brussels staff so that he can have a deputy ambassador.

I don't think...

I think these are... Those are all products.

Have you discussed this with Rogers yet?

No.

Okay, let's go on.

So, Rogers, I think that's the best bet.

We need somebody that's going to be my man and play ball.

Rogers probably wants to get him out of the Air State anyway.

Don't tell him about the understandings.

No.

You see, I don't think you need to.

Why don't I do it tomorrow when you're gone?

All right, well, I... Yeah, yeah, and you don't need to tell him about the understandings.

I'll just invite him to the other meeting.

May I tell Roger that I think it's a nice touch if on your Monday thing you call him in Europe.

On that press television or if you want to wait.

Rodgers?

Yeah.

Sure.

Tell him that I will be calling him directly for him to give me the report on the phone.

He'll take those paintings?

Yeah, it's going to be on NBC in Rhode Island.

We'll arrange a time and we'll get him or even report him.

We'd like to have about a ten minute conversation on the phone.

Good.

and give him that and then say, no, I think that I determine Kennedy is our best bet because he's supposed to be, I think he needs to have a special assignment.

I think he'll do very well and so forth and so on over there.

Okay.

How did you feel with your play after your announcement in China?

It went very well.

Aren't you pleased with it?

I don't know what Dresden was trying to do with his column, perhaps.

No, it was very favorable, but it was sort of promoting him.

I mean, he highly praised it, but then he said, why doesn't he appear before the Fulbright Committee?

Fulbright Committee, 2006.

Peter Fulbright, I mean, out of your damn mind.

I thought the play was very good.

I did, too.

It played very well.

All of them.

The picture, everything, the papers.

I didn't fix them, you know.

That I don't care.

I don't care.

It's an awfully big story.

But they played it as a very big story.

I think the Chinese will be pleased to come here.

I got the reaffirmation of the defense commitment, and at the same time, I cut off the two China kick.

You got the resurrection thing here pretty well.

Yes.

I really appreciate that.

Oh, I didn't.

You did well.

And last night they were very friendly to you, you know.

I'll bet those guys should be.

Let's go.

Standing ovation.

Several times they jumped up and applauded.

Good.

And, uh... You just laid... You're taking the advantage of it, aren't you, Sergeant?

Oh, I wound up at the conclusion.

That's the way to go.

I step down.

Don't worry.

I step down.

I have to tell you, we did all of this without...

the establishment that you people represent.

Good.

And I... Good.

And when we go back on that, we won't be remembered not as the people who ended the war in Vietnam, but as the people who started a new foreign policy, and a policy which the establishment ultimately found and had to support.

Ah.

That's pretty random.

Oh, that's not that long ago.

Yes.

And Kersey was there, and I was placed into the Senate

I said, he came up after us, he said, you were absolutely right.

Of course, it's not an offense always, I said.

I said the president did it without the Senate, without the establishment, and that would be the least that is important.

It's so important.

That's good.

Well, it probably isn't good.

Good luck.