Nixon, Haldeman & Butterfield on Henry Kissinger and Resignation

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You're sure right, he wants to do it.

Yeah.

He wants to do it well.

That's what I write.

He's now off on a bigger kick as to what happened and why.

I said, Henry, there wasn't really anything.

I said, you have two weeks to go.

Now, he never mentioned anything about being tough on the Russians two weeks ago.

I mean, what?

What?

I don't know.

I haven't the slightest idea what.

He said, we've done the right things, but we've done them two weeks early.

Now, wait a minute.

Let me say this.

State, here's the weakness of this case.

State never indicated that there was anything

that we should not do about the Russians two weeks ago.

They were arguing about giving anything about the Indian thing.

Well, he never suggested anything to them, did he?

Not a goddamn thing.

No.

Uh, it's her type of thing.

It's tied up, strangely enough.

It's her problem, right?

It needs someone.

It has to, because he doesn't give that much of an answer about India and Pakistan.

He's told that he cares about Pakistan because the region is tied to China.

And, you know, it's his pride that's hurt.

Well, and then he's got this Roger's remark about we're selling out India.

That's right, we're attacking China.

He's mentioned that a number of times.

But the point is that when he's now said it, so he's disillusioned, he's never mentioned this before, that the real thing is that, well, we could have squeezed the Russians or...

We could have landed on the Russians two weeks ago.

But I didn't suggest anything.

And what we could have said to the Russians two weeks ago, the state didn't suggest anything but what we could have said.

You know, we can't do anything with somebody unless you deny them something.

And he mentioned the Russian thing to you this morning.

Could you say what?

But he didn't admit it.

It's like a distinction between the Russians.

He didn't bring it up.

He did it in answer to what I was probing.

What could we have done?

What should we have done?

What did we do wrong?

He said, we did the right thing.

But if we had done it two weeks earlier, we could have left the screws on the Russians.

I find this even more incredible in the future.

It's saving.

That's the point.

It's saving.

See, I'm trying to get at the whole fact of it here.

And I think what's involved here is very possibly

The Russian thing.

Well, maybe.

I don't think he's going to leave it for Teddy to start cracking up.

It doesn't bother me that he does.

I thought he was squealing about it earlier.

I hope he doesn't squeal about it now.

I'm going to find something to scream about.

What about the situation with Connolly?

Are you seeing him sometime?

Yeah, we were supposed to meet at 11 today.

He said he wanted to reschedule a little bit.

I just had a meeting with him myself.

I had a doxie, and we had a tentative time set for about the day.

He had something to talk about.

He asked Chris's office to call him.

He said he'd be set up later.

He says he's concerned that he doesn't have the right signals on what he's supposed to be doing in the South, what you want to do in the South, and he's wondering whether you're aware of this other

where we stand in the south of that.

And the big picture, as far as I can see, is the southern blocks.

We've got a real super chance with the blocks in the south.

I don't mind if somebody talks to me about it, but I just don't want to get my kid involved in it.

I'm not sure my kid is going to be very good at it.

I want somebody with an open mind to talk to me about it.

I just don't want to mention it.

Well, I'll talk to them again.

Try to get a wide open on this, on the plan, whether you do that.

You want to talk to Mitchell about it, perhaps?

You talked to him about what Mitchell would not deal with landing on the black situation in the South, in my opinion.

But you could be.

And I agree with you.

I've been told to deal with it.

We've always done well on blacks in the South.

You were, did you get the report that Sheldon Scott, on these situations, are accomplished?

Sheldon Scott, long before it also was the

Well, and his attitude and everything else.

Well, I don't know.

The only condition is that he hasn't had a heart attack.

And he has arteriosclerosis.

And his doctor's advised him never to go back.

He's in a coronary emergency section.

But that he will come.

In other words, he will recover.

You will recover.

They may let him out to putt and do some things like that in six to eight weeks.

They won't let him read the papers.

They will only let him watch a football game or something on television.

He's demanded TV, and they won't let him see the news because they didn't break what I'm saying.

And O'Connell is, who the hell is he?

is that Connie Schultz has this very close to me, who is, other than Blaine Kirkland and Mrs. Meany, O'Connell is apparently the only other person, or person to visit the doctor.

That confirms the same thing.

I don't know anything about other things.

O'Connell, well, Schultz comes up with the view that we, our strategy now,

probably should be not too late anymore, because if he dies, we'll get a sense of the effect.

Of course.

And, you know, we've got to just ignore him.

Is anybody late?

No.

Okay.

So, if I could just say that, he says that he recognizes himself that Miami was a complete London.

Let me ask this.

There's a very late...

Certainly everybody has a good sense now to see that the meeting is done.

I think so.

Well, let's just be sure about that.

Remember that they ought to touch him up from time to time.

And George has pointed, maybe we ought not to touch him up.

Now, I can't agree with it.

What you're saying?

Yeah.

What you're saying is that maybe O'Connell, the other O'Connell, he feels, maybe he thinks he's going to die, or he might have a hysteria about something else.

But we have one of those in that series.

You never know what will hit you next.

But he says he told O'Connell that he blew the Miami game at the state.

It's kind of an interesting thing.

Also, the international presidents now generally feel you're going to win.

And therefore, some of them are concerned about not being completely left out in the cold.

And that's still our best opportunity.

Not with me and not with me's successor, whoever it is that there is one.

And that was kind of an interesting input.

I can tell you the same thing.

George says, I guess we can't do what we can't do about it.

He says Kirkland is wiped out now, too, because the

Basically, leadership of the Union blames Kirkland for Miami.

That was basically his strategy with me in full.

And he was the hardliner.

In fact, he was the one that was pushing, I guess, harder on the Squirtle Union.

And they all know that.

So they're blaming him.

Also, I guess a lot of them probably don't want to blame me, because then I get in trouble.

So they use Kirkland as their own.

Plus, of course, there's the internal battle, and I want to get Kirkland anyway.

How do you feel about some of the reaction?

I don't think you need to do any more.

It's so hard.

I don't know what I mean.

I'm not meaning that.

We were supposed to mean that.

Suppose something does happen to him.

How do we handle it?

I think we're all right.

Unless we kick him around some more.

We haven't kicked him since he got sick.

And we didn't give him, he gave you.

And that still amounts in the letters to the editors of the magazine, which was at the time, I guess, during his week, has two letters underneath, and they both just knocked the shit out of me.

Still, this week, it's still playing back in the Miami.

Because people react about it.

I don't like that, they said.

I don't like it.

Oh, Christ.

We're going to do a bunch of Gallup-Carnal eats.

He was out November 19th to 22nd, a while back.

And he's got, these aren't registered voters only, which is a little bit different.

They're going to publish the Kennedy figures on Thursday.

That'll be 44-41, which their last Kennedy figures were in September were 42-40.

So it's about the same.

Well, it's a little game.

You're up two points.

He's up one.

Wallace is up one, and the undecided is William.

The undecided is only five, or what is nine?

These are registered voters.

Yeah.

Over what period, Bob?

This is November 19th of 22nd.

And what does that look like compared to these guys?

It's not.

It's never been.

So were the CIO.

The 19th was the CIO.

The 4 was 41-37.

So there, you're up 3, he's up 4.

Nixon Humphrey is 46-37.

I was 42-38.

See, there's a substantial move ahead on Humphrey.

and McGovern is 49-33, and they didn't do McGovern before.

I think they're probably going to publish those on Sunday, and they're subject to a one-point change.

You know, that's what makes his stuff funny as hell.

I know goddamn well what it's going to be.

Dirk, the junior, is going to be here at the dinner tonight.

Yeah.

I was meeting with Bob Teeter, who's a guy that Mitchell's retained as a campaign poster.

I said, we've got the right guy, I think.

He's much more, I think he's just as sound as Dirk, but he's much more dynamic.

Dirk's never quite got any gear on him.

He had to keep prodding, where this guy is.

He's got a very good system where he's going to use MOR and ORC and BMI.

for various polling, except all doing the same questionnaires, the same coding, the same tapes, IBM stuff, computer stuff, you know, so he can put it all together.

He's doing it only by states, but by doing the key states, and then, I think it's got a few hundred additional interviews to balance out the country.

He can also give, get national stuff as well as key state stuff.

And it is the key state of all of the pretty prime problems.

Yes, it is, but for virtually

No more expense.

You can get the rest and get an actual figure that gives you just an overall benchmark against Gallup.

Benchmark against Gallup and the others.

You know, it's quite something that they hold up there so well.

Yeah, but they're Democrats, and I think you're going to, yeah, whenever you go out and ask people if they're going to vote for the Democrat, you're not going to get below a third, I don't think, no matter what it is.

Maybe we'll kind of even them out.

There's a street voter, she said,

I took a prayer test.

And Wallace just hangs in there, 10, 11, 12.

He never gets below 9 or 10.

What is it?

What about his approval then?

His approval.

Not this time.

He says not, I don't believe it.

Probably went up just to give them help.

But a lot of people, we give them help.

Probably the same.

Probably went up some, like this is the one that went up some.

Went up a little.

That weekend at another.

No, no, we, it's about that.

These trowels are about the same as one big cake, aren't they?

Mm-hmm.

So the Bolt-Kennedy must be the same, doesn't it?

Yep.

Exactly.

Exactly the same.

I realize, too, that they are chopping away all the time, aren't they?

So are we.

Well, they're getting a free ride.

They don't get blamed for anything.

You get blamed for everything.

In the end, they don't get credit for anything either.

But they don't.

This whole... Who gave the papers to you this time?

John Davies?

Or Chaffin?

I don't know why they gave it to me.

But Chaffin called and asked me for it.

We do better games from him.

Chaffin does better games from Davies than Rumsfeld does games from Yanky Allen.

He's got to be on the head of the organization now.

Yeah, he's the president or something like that.

Is he called Ted?

It's George and Alex Jr. One of them's called Ted.

So, Rumsfeld says it was a dementia student that should have stayed with us.

They're probably going to suggest about, if you do a one minute on camera thing, on here, a pension message to Congress, which goes on and on.

Don't put it to the news.

They don't have one yet, but that's the plan.

No, I don't want to do that.

Okay.

I'll have a statement, but it's not something that's... That's the thing that means that you're planning a discussion.

Yeah.

No.

Affordable mentions.

Never mind.

I think that there's problems around some other thing.

Don't you think so, Christine?

When he bounces around, again, there's a difference.

You have to stay zeroed in on a particular problem.

Now, he's a Russian.

We've just squeezed the Russians.

He usually does.

The point is, he's a problem of the crisis and so forth.

What we mean, we were on top of it all the time.

And frankly, the thing he doesn't realize, and it's the other thing he's got to realize about the Vietnam War negotiations, it isn't what we do or don't do.

It's not that.

It's just an insightful problem.

And so is India-Pakistan.

There's going to be a war in India-Pakistan, and even God can't stop the war.

That's what it is.

And he said, well, all the Russians are going to stop it.

And they finished talking.

I don't know how many Indians have got their arms stinging.

And I would count the Russians.

We could squeeze the Russians down each other.

Because we did this stuff.

I trust him.

Once his little tantrum's over, you might have one.

Well, I don't usually tell you about it.

He does, because you were sent to this problem here at home.

And because he was on the street, when he came back in, he was talking about it.

He said, well, Henry, obviously,

But he would announce his resignation, but of course he wouldn't leave before China, so he said, you can't do that.

When you announce your resignation, you've got to go.

If you can't announce your resignation, then you're going to go later.

He said, well, you couldn't be the president if you go to China alone.

And I said, well, you couldn't go to the other one.

You can't go to China with it, having announced that you're going to resign.

And so we looked at each other and said, that kind of bugged him.

Why are you just so fun and so foolish?

And he announces his resignation.

He's left.

But see, his argument was, if I announce my resignation, that'll get rid of all the problems.

And then they'll stop sabotaging, because I'm not a scientist.

Well, how can you, with all these things that we're dealing with here, how could you consider

I said, what's the solution to the problem?

Let's look at that.

He said, you're not going to talk me out of resigning.

I said, I'm not trying to talk you out of resigning.

That's fine.

What I'm trying to talk you out of is resigning and leaving a mess.

Obviously, if you're going to resign, you want to resign when things are in good order.

Now, how the hell do we get it in good order before you go?

Paul used to ponder that.

He said, well, I have to give some thought to that.

I said, obviously, you don't want to walk out of here looking like you.

You know, everything got screwed up and you walked out.

You've got to get it all in a ship-shape order, and then leave.

And so how do we deal with this problem?

What happens after you're gone?

How do you have a going mechanism here to keep things on the track?

Because you've got all these things started, and you can't just not keep seeing through it.

But I made it very clear.

I was not persuading him to stay.

I wasn't arguing with him.

You can't leave.

I was just saying, you've got to leave in good style.

I said, since you announced you were going to leave, you weren't going to be worth anything.

You weren't going to pay any attention to any of your goals.

Although the president's looking for someone to replace you, or to work on some place along the way.

And so I didn't know.

I didn't say that, but I thought that the Chinese had a slight disinterest in him.

Well, like I said, I was going to be a candidate.

And I mean, I'm talking to people that are less interested in him or anything.

He's going to be gone.

He'd just be a... And his idea that they quit sabotaging him, Jesus Christ, if they did, they'd think he was going to be around with power.

He didn't know what he was killing.

He didn't know what his abacus was until then.

Jesus Christ, they cut him to little pieces.

I guess he really thought all that sort of thing through.

I think sometimes he likes to play with the idea of resigning.

For other reasons, I think it's sort of a...

He sees the great Donald, the one-day story.

The one-day story of the martyr and the great hero.

He was the guy that was almost saved.

And he couldn't go.

So where would he be about six weeks later?

He has no idea, does he?

Of course he is.

Where is he going?

It's disastrous for the nation, for anyone else to feel like that.

But I don't know.

It means I have to deal all that.

We know that, I guess.

But where's Pat Lane?

So now he cares about Pat Lane.

He's coming in now.

That's interesting.

There's a lot of students who are probably boring to death, but he teaches them well.

And this is the faculty club.

They have too many drinks and so forth and so on.

Do the usual things you do back at the club.

Believe me.

My man said, well, at least he's out of the stress here.

He doesn't have to go to the party anymore.

He doesn't have to do all these things that everybody hates to do around here.

That gets in line for him all the time.

Do you know what I mean?

You just got to realize it's a... Look at Henry.

How much of a social line would Henry be having?

How would he start to be after his body if he were a Harvard professor?

The day he leaves.

All that time.

It's time to build it up.

It goes so fast.

It doesn't, it doesn't from the man in office.

A former president.

I believe anybody that works for him.

Instead of the L.C.

Snuts.

Do you hear me?

Yes, sir.

The staff member is nothing.

Except for Rostow.

Now, today, people still hear Johnson.

Johnson shows up, people with all of his banner, but not Rostow.

Right?

Or Bundy.

What?

The former cabinet officer should have that.

All dead.

Bob McNamara goes out as the dictator who fazes the attention.

I'm thinking about your right.

That's just a little different because he acquired his own globe.

Yeah.

Well, everybody would be.

The Dean rubs calories.

Rubs.

Too good for rubs are done.

In Georgia, of all places.

No, I'm different.

I'm so part of it.

So much of it.

Ellen's different.

If you want to sell us a book, you will.

Just sell us a book.

If you need me to write it, it'll be a good book.

It won't be very well written, but it'll be extremely full of facts and loaded with content.

All of it.

Let's see if John does that.

He says he'll write one.

I hope he doesn't, right?

I think we will.

I don't think there's going to be a problem.

He'll have a copy.

He won't get the only copy with him.

Oh, I mean, I'm trying to remember what I did.

Oh, he must.

He must have something.

All right.

He's got an office record.

His record is... No, but I have records of his conversations.

I asked earlier.

He had a record.

He knows.

But I'm sure he doesn't make notes of conversations.

He has.

Market went up 168 today.

So they're hanging in there now.

What?

15 million shares, so it's hanging regularly.

It's all from yesterday.

All three yesterday.

Six.

857, which is pretty close for it to be.

Stay down.

How do you want me to answer, sir?

Yes, please.

Yes, please, sir.

Well, we want the name to be a nine, sir.

How are you going to...

How's that?

11, 3, 4, 5.

You know, fit it in with the sketching.

Just to get it more further.

I don't want a meeting.

I just want it long.

I'm not going to erase it more.

I'm not going to go into this whole problem, because I have found that in times past, it's the wrong treatment.

But you agree?

Yeah.

He better raise money.

You know, if he would raise it with me, I wouldn't have any choice.

I think you'd better get rid of these twice a day.

I think maybe you'd better get rid of the current problem pretty fast.

What do you think?

I think I should.

You don't know his background, do you?

Does he have a state of the land take him?

I'm just, you know, that's fine.

Well, that's second guessing, but what, what now do we do from where we are?

Now, pick on Russia.

What did the state keep us from really getting on Russia?

I'm trying to think about that.

Yeah.

We know it's a state problem.

I don't understand what it is the State Department did wrong.

What did they keep us from doing that we should have done?

Well, what did they do?

Unrational.

That's what he's believing.

He can give you all sorts of arguments.

Nixon, Haldeman & Butterfield on Henry Kissinger and Resignation

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on December 7, 1971

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