On December 22, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Henry A. Kissinger, George P. Shultz, and Arthur F. Burns met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:48 am to 11:02 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 640-003 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Well, what's your judgment on the show, Mark?
I think a very...
Someone disappointed?
No, a very strong loss.
I don't think it was... What it could have been?
I'm not sure that it could have been.
What?
What anybody thought?
What?
You know, any more than what it was, when you really look at that kind of thing.
You call my idea, the feeling that...
Was that kind of a show where the documentary types would all say, well, this is great history, but where it really wouldn't have any public impact?
I think it's really the other way, that it'll have more public impact and less money to the documentary types if they ran it.
See, the criticism, for instance, of the review in the paper this morning, I think they're pretty fair reviews.
It made the point that they had five hours of film, and that if we had been able to see more of the five hours, we would have had a much better insight into the way the president works than just seeing one hour, because it was necessarily chopped up.
And therefore, we got a presentation of the public
activity of the presidency, but not the kind of insight into the reasoning behind things that would have been interesting.
That's the start of it, once I read it.
What they said to us, what you do get is a great sense, and this is what I think you have to do, is a great sense of the bridge of the office, of the kinds of things the president has to deal with, of the tremendous pressure and pace under which he must work,
and of the demands of the ceremonial aspects and, in a sense, the way they intrude on the business of the office and all that, and yet aren't important.
And then they said that the most interesting parts of the show were the little insights the president was taking away with the dog in the Oval Office, the president
making a note to himself on a little piece of paper and sticking it in his pocket during a meeting, the president and his reaction to phone conversations, the little interview, the little chat with Julie.
And then the interview with Chancellor at the end came on very well.
They've used a lot of that.
They've used it on the Today Show and on the news as a feature piece and all of the sort of background on China, what we're trying to accomplish there, what we're doing, what we don't expect and all.
But their criticism was that it was, in a sense, it was too superficial.
And then just as, in a meeting, just as they were starting to get into the depth of it, they would cut or they'd get in the narrator's voice and you wouldn't really hear what was going to happen.
Also, they made the point that, as is inevitable, that television is not able, need to look into
the actual operation of the office.
And they weren't criticizing that.
They were just saying that's a thing, because nobody is going to act all the time the same way when 10 million people, he knows 10 million people are watching him, as he will act when he knows he's alone, or with someone, one other person.
And he said, you had the feeling that the president and the other people were, most of the time, aware of the fact that there were cameras there, which is, they weren't criticizing, they were just saying there's a background.
in looking at television's ability to cover something like this.
But then they still come back to the fact that it was historic, covers something that's never been done before, and gave us much more of a look into the presidency than anybody's ever had, even though it may not have been a perfect look.
And I think all of that is, well, is fair.
I don't know whether the...
The just plain folks will, I don't know if we'll really find out whether the just plain folks are interested in it.
Well, I think it did a lot to do with what good it does the president.
I mean, you see with this galley of people and talk to people around here and see it as a fine show, they always, well, Ron's saying, like, create a news story, a picture, that sort of thing.
But, you know, looking closer, what does it show the president that hasn't shown previously?
That's what I wonder.
It's shown a little of what we see in...
And the president's in charge in a range of stuff.
The president's in charge of everything.
Very much so.
I think it was, let's compare it to a day in the life of the president in U.S. news, which every president said for the last, just a little bit, I guess.
The impact of the role to you is a thousand times what that would have been.
And of course, it was more work to him, too, than it would be in that.
But there's almost the same problem with that, because you've got the guy in there, I mean, the camera in there all the time for that one, too.
So...
Well, I think the professional, I don't think, I didn't mean to say professional political science people, but professional television, news types, who like their will, that are impressed.
Like, Ali is a good example.
He said this is the best thing we've ever done.
I mean, he said it before, before it was done, because, you know, he just loves coming in and taking pictures that haven't been taken before.
Well, it, it shows
in a way that hasn't been shown.
It shows, you get the meaning of some of the problem of the office.
You would build a personal thing.
For instance, they did a very good sequence on the photo opportunity business.
And it gave you, you realize what all of us see who are here all the time, but people out there never see, have no concept of, which is, when you started with Trudeau, he came in, you talked for a minute, and he said, well, we've got to go through the
the ordeal now, or something, you know, you sit in this chair, and then this horde of people came, and they had the camels there, and they got the guys coming in the door, just by the herd of cattle, knocking each other over, and, you know, jockeying for position, and they got all the noise, the ladder, the shutters going, and all that.
That was gross.
That doesn't, I'm not sure it doesn't change anybody's hope, but it
It's very exciting, you know, that the guy can't just go about these things.
They've given a tremendous push, and they'll be delighted with the review they got on it.
It'll be a big thing for them.
What else is in the news today?
I'm taking off for a week and I'm reading the news.
I think you're right.
Okay.
Why should I?
I don't remember.
There's nothing.
Why haven't you heard the front page of the paper?
Why aren't you playing in your yard?
Yeah.
Because anyone else does.
They ran a TV last night.
They ran a...
I didn't see it, but some of the people here saw it.
It was really horrible.
One of the worst they've ever done, an atrocity thing.
Which, sorry?
The Indians.
Indians killed them.
Indians killed four... Facts.
Facts.
And it was apparently really...
I guess I ran out of paper this morning.
You need to cut off that now.
There's six pictures that they wouldn't let out of the country.
Henry, tell me.
Well, they made a point on this thing of sort of apologizing for running the Indian atrocities, but here they are.
Apologizing for running them.
Peterson raises the question, which I guess I'm very concerned about, maybe on track with the staff anyway, but there was apparently an announcement from you that
by Rogers that we would be moving a trade preference bill in January.
And they're concerned that this is an administration commitment, because once we start a bill, we can't stop it.
It'll Christmas tree.
And they're only concerned because of what I said in the Latin American seat.
That's part of my Latin American .
Put it in the bill and don't push it.
I mean, that's just to tell Peterson, don't bother with it.
You know what I mean?
We have to put it in.
Don't put it in the health law.
You know what I mean?
It's one of those things where they aren't going to push it.
They aren't going to want the goddamn thing.
I know that.
I know that.
But see, Peterson isn't aware of the background.
We have our instructions from our opposition.
We want it or not.
The reviews seemed to be handled with as much as we could expect from here, wasn't it?
Yes.
Was it a good play?
Good.
They're all very positive.
NBC... Not big news, of course, but it was a good play.
Well, it was big, isn't he?
You know, that picture, the death of the Glamorgan man.
Yeah.
All over.
Which is a pretty good picture.
It was a little different setting.
And...
The point that there have been good, long talks with friends, that the special relationship has changed, that it's still there.
Good.
NBC did a special, a half-hour special, on the summit tree in town with the seven suns.
Well, they're doing apparently a series of them after each, and they did one last time, but it was basically very positive.
You know, I think after those things, you know, at the time I was...
And notice, there's no change of pace like there is.
It's different, really, even though here in the office on a bad day, even here, you shift back and forth enough that you...
There you get a strange surrounding, and there's no level.
Apparently, they seem to think they've got Brompton to do two sessions.
And afternoon session the first day, then the dinner, and then the morning session the second day, and break at noon, and then go back to Starr and Sillings.
They're working in a fast paradigm.
McCracken will be departing, and you ought to see him today.
Well, he's going to be around through the end of the week, but you won't have him.
I want to be told that physical thing, if you lay that on, I don't know whether I want to or not.
If I feel I've got a season, people would rather walk around the building, I'm not going to bother with the same thing.
I'm not too keen on having it done anyway.
It's not all that important.
I've got a, I had it last year, and I, there isn't that much to happen in one year.
And I know if I, if you are.
But I'll see, I'll see.
Don't tell me to cut it.
That's the thing that I'm trying to put him on.
But I, I'm just going to do it when I feel like it.
And I may be able to keep it on.
Yeah.
Well, that's the thing to understand, is that it's, you know, always, you know, you know, you just have to push it.
I would think Bob would go to Florida then.
I think I would go to London.
football games on Sunday anyways.
Yeah, okay.
Or, I don't know, I think I'll go Sunday night.
It's Sunday night after the football.
Not a good idea.
You down?
I wouldn't think so, yeah.
It'd be better if I'd fly in the day time, the weather's different.
Yeah.
Or is that to put a lot of people out?
Not in the least.
We'll run the official party down at different times anyway.
We'll try to run everybody down with you.
I go at 7 o'clock.
And Roger's going to stay.
He's staying at the hotel.
And Henry's going to go down with those kids, I guess.
I think he's going on Saturday.
So it's...
I think you ought to just go whenever you can.
I don't want to go Sunday night with anybody else.
I think Sunday night I would go.
I'll have dinner here after the game.
The game is at 4 o'clock, so.
If, probably from just a personal viewpoint, it looks a little better to wait until Sunday night to go down rather than looking right off, you know, right after Christmas.
Sunday night at 8 o'clock.
That's what I meant, respect.
Yeah.
Yeah, everybody will understand that when we're all here the next day.
Yeah.
It's good that we have Monday down there, or meetings Tuesday or Wednesday.
Tuesday afternoon, Wednesday morning.
Good.
Good.
So you have Monday clear down there.
That's good.
That'll give you a good night's sleep Sunday night.
Clear the brain.
Monday clear.
Right.
A good night's sleep Monday night.
And then you can show that brain.
So have you given any more thought to the thing last night?
Mitchell is wise, obviously, you know.
He's very wise.
He cannot blow that thing.
But the thing is, you know, the thing is,
the genre and loves it.
Doesn't he?
He's excited as a kid about this.
He made a great call on the CIA.
He wants it.
He loves it.
I didn't realize that.
He's always said that.
He said it way back at the beginning.
He loves it.
He loves the CIA.
He has a vision of people.
He drives them.
He gets the word.
Well, he wants to interrogate the guy himself.
What are you going to say?
Well, it just...
The thing that worries me is that guy at Yeoman.
Yeah, what are you going to do now?
He's coming loose.
Yeah, if he's psychologically unbalanced, which he's almost bound to be after being worked over like this, you'd be a little guy at that level getting cranked up the way he is.
Yeah.
Great.
And I just...
I just think you can't arrest him, you can't prosecute him, you can't take over another...
But I, I just wonder if he, if he, if there's something he can do to bottle him up.
Maybe it's just to, to, uh, he's another gopher.
That's a problem.
Potentially, he sure is.
That's the thing that concerns me.
Except that he probably knows a hell of a lot more than elsewhere.
He may not be as smart.
Yeah, he really knows more.
That's right.
He doesn't have as much bulk in papers, but he...
Because he's been in on more important things.
Well, he's read all that stuff that's come through there.
Of course, it's all... You're writing all the books.
It's all, yeah, but it's all past.
And really, what's in there isn't really terribly harmful.
Most of it's good.
Most of it is not harmful, really.
Well, if you're having a very full-on, perfect conversation, it overflows with stuff.
So I suppose he's got some of that from conversations with me where I said, get those damn people to work on this and that, which is fine.
Mom in the north.
OK.
But I certainly want that he put the Henry and Hague on this now with Bob.
I'll tell you one thing that's fortuitous about it.
Henry will turn over his grave before he'll ever admit it.
One thing that's fortuitous.
Next time Henry comes in, you know, when we have leaks, he says, it's got to come from Staten.
He always says it's come from Staten.
I mean, where the documents, remember the documents have been leaked in previous seasons.
We can't be sure over the past 13 months whether this son of a bitch didn't do it.
You understand?
He could have done it.
We know he leaked this stuff.
And Henry, I'm sure, thought that the Andrews stuff came from Staten.
He walked right into it.
John led him into it one day in a meeting the other day.
He showed his faith.
What a terrible man it was.
He didn't have the courage to fire people.
He had no discipline.
All this kind of stuff.
John just kind of let it walk out.
John at that time knew that he had this fault.
He didn't know all this complicated fact about the Joint Chiefs, but he knew that they had this...
had centered on the fact that it had to be an energy apparatus, and they were down to two or three people.
All right, sorry.
Sad.
It really is.
The worst thing about it is you get, you start, which we've managed to avoid maybe too much, you start getting paranoid.
You start wondering about everything and everybody and, you know, you can't, well, don't be too damn sure of anybody.
I mean, that's not, don't get too sure of anybody.
You can't be, I'm never sure of anybody.
Well, that would be the only reason I am so close now.
is, as you noticed, I don't talk to him.
Let me put it this way.
Do you not now see why I don't have staff meetings?
Yeah, Brian.
Do you agree?
Oh, yeah.
Don't you think I'm right?
I sure as hell do.
I don't have staff meetings.
I'd rather, I know the charge of the staff would be to sit around and talk to him, correct?
But who knows?
First, without evil intentions, some would leave.
That's right.
Beyond that, there might be somebody in there that's just like a little guy like us who'll get along.
But the anything, I tell you, whenever anything's important, you don't tell anybody.
You know, and I, it's really tough.
It's tough.
We don't tell Roger's letter to anybody.
We just don't tell any son of a bitch at all.
And it's a horrible way to have to work, but it's essential.
No, he's in good shape.
Well, I don't mind saying it, but I've gone over with him about 10 times.
He's doing very well.
He's doing a good job.
He says, are you ready to raise money to find artists?
Are you planning about the appointment process for the Fed?
Yeah, he forgot that.
I know, I'm going to hit him right back.
See, one thing, I didn't ask him to name the people.
He's claiming that I have double-crossed him on that, that she made an issue on.
Why?
In that I told him that you remember when we got into the thing on this guy, you said that
it would have to be someone who was acceptable to both Archer and Connolly to start with, and that he would not consider a recommendation until both of them concurred.
And so I told him that.
Well, he read that.
I was saying that they had to have concurred after the party.
Well, yeah.
And also, see, Connolly played a double game with us on that.
I know he took it for the report.
He told Archer he was for this guy Thompson, and he told me he was against him.
He told you he was against him.
And so we veto that as a mandate, even though that doesn't mean that Arthur goes out and picks the man.
I picked the man.
I told him that.
It's actually one way in the Supreme Court.
Obviously, you're interested in Arthur's recommendation, but the appointed authority can't be delegated to the chair of the board.
The president has to take that charge.
Is there other considerations in what he's thinking of?
There's a political consideration of Texas that it simply wouldn't do to have another Texan.
You made that point.
Yes, sir.
With the problem we already have of the top two treasuries being Texans and the fact of Conley's Texanism being such a problem.
Anyway, he's a good man.
And Arthur thinks he's a good man.
He's just, what really happened is, Arthur promised him the job.
Told him he had it.
And it gets back to the Arthur Eagle business, where Arthur left his egos.
There's nothing he can do about it.
Well, I'm going to tell him in the future that I'm going to make the appointments his.
to be considered, but others have to be considered, too, because I've got a pile, a stack how high I've even told you about.
It's pretty important.
You can take the people Berger wanted.
Berger had a couple of terrible people he wanted.
But he considered all of them.
He listened to his.
Also, the thing I will tell Arthur, I will not take somebody that you don't want.
I said, I don't want the damn board to be one that is totally, I mean, we can't put in
Delivered at that point.
I said, that's what I didn't want to do with Berger.
I said, Berger felt strongly that he just couldn't have the man on him.
It's too small a group to do that.
I would not do that.
I would put oil and water together.
Yeah, but I couldn't do all that.
That's exactly what the way it's been put, but this is the way he chose to read it.
And, of course, he doesn't want Connolly having equal veto power.
Well, Connolly's my... You know, Parker doesn't have any veto power on the board at all.
Connolly's got more than Parker.
That's what he's got to realize.
He's one of the board.
God damn, he could just go somewhere.
Well, if you're all that, if you get in the money supply, it's not going to help, I guess.
Well, that's why I have to sit around with you.
Generally speaking, the new deflation is not particularly negative for this time of year.
No, it's not particularly positive.
No, it is positive.
Pretty well, the India Pact has been a little negative.
Lousy.
They crashed the content market or something.
India Pact isn't all that bad for us.
I still don't know.
Henry's reading the technical stuff.
If anybody read the Cardinal Martyr column or something, it might be that.
I want to...
I'm sure you saw the reason.
Another reason I want to start waiting.
I want you to be able to...
And maybe with the help of Mitchell, I would put Henry in his place a little more about leaks and things.
He is, uh, I don't know what to say, but, you know, I'm going to rumble with everybody else today and say that, God damn it, he's got to look to his own shop now, you know?
His own shop.
Sure does.
There's...
If he'd thought this was a canyon, he'd have stayed with you.
No.
Shit.
They didn't need you.
You could have helped the other way.
Well, actually, that's when they got the custody.
They couldn't have, because some of the stuff was sub-stated and didn't have any access to it.
Yeah.
It was a really upset ending when you boiled it all down.
This is David Young.
I don't know if there's any thing for me to do around here.
You know, the Christmas parties and everything, I was thinking I should walk around a bit.
But yet, it isn't particularly helpful as it is right now.
Aren't they all in pretty good shape?
Everybody's in very good shape.
There's... You know, it's never a bad thing to do.
Yeah.
Well, I've got some time this afternoon.
I may come in.
Henry, how are you?
All right.
I don't know.
I was going to ask you something.
I was going to lie down here.
You were going to the door of the center.
You're supposed to have it here.
It's over tomorrow.
You want to take it to the house?
I don't know where it is.
I don't know where it is.
I don't know where it is.
On the defense budget, if we can get them back, they're out now.
Lear pays this.
Paying him is $350,000.
$350,000?
$350,000 that he's getting.
And he says if he gets $50 million more...
Uh, we have him off our back, and ideally it takes 50 million, 40 million, 40 million.
What did we finally come up with?
10 to 600 million?
No, 10 to 50 will be 400 million more than... Then 600, 400 million more than 75 million.
Then 70, 85, 50, 79, 50, 78, 9, something like that.
And he's, he's willing to settle for that.
I thought it was, I thought it was more than...
Oh, no, we were at $76,500.
Well, that's the same.
$76,500 to $78,500.
He's got some business.
$78,600.
Well, do you understand that if you give him the pay, he's taking away the pay raise plus $400,000.
No, no, no.
Give him $800,000.
No, he gets the pay that is half $50,000,000.
That's all he's getting.
He's getting $200,000.
That's all he's getting.
Well, then we're still at 78.5, although he has gotten extra content.
That's going to do the $400 million.
Well, if that's what the technicals are, it would be.
It's a done deal.
And it's a layer you're going to defend.
It's not going to leak the stories that we're going to publish 300,000 jobs.
Did you put out that story to Arthur Burns?
Did you know about that memorandum?
Yes, sir, I did.
And I went over and talked to Arthur yesterday and had a length about it.
Well, I'm going to ask for it.
Who put it out in the story?
I mean, who is it?
Somebody from the budget beat it to Arthur.
Let me say, Henry, what is involved?
Let's not talk to George.
His partner tries to build up the fences.
Or what goes wrong with the economy in case he doesn't do what he ought to do?
A few months ago, as well, we didn't do the fiscal right.
It would be too much inflation, and therefore you couldn't do the money supply.
So he's forced us.
A year ago, he was forcing us to have a very tight budget for one of these two.
Then he got on to the wage price thing.
And now the problem is that we're too soft on the wage side and too hard on the price side, and that's striking the economy.
to the line that he can say six months from now, in the event of no agreement, is right.
Well, I didn't do it.
I told these folks they should do this and that and the other.
See my point?
Well, what happened was, uh, Miller gave a party for days past it.
I wasn't there, but I heard about it.
There was a discussion about this point, and that's how Arthur got onto it.
Then Bob Newton was instructed by the secretary to send a memo, and she did.
Now, there's nothing new about this 300,000 jobs business.
It is a matter of law that the military personnel have to be at a certain level by June 30th.
That's the law.
And so they have a program to get to that point.
And it means that there are 200,000 less in the military services, roughly from the point of that.
than there were in September.
The law is that.
Now, in terms of the civilians and the defense contractors on the Seattle side, we have been trying to reduce the number of governmental personnel.
We have...
been following your instructions, working very hard on ATW, and we're in a great fight with Elliot about that.
We put out initial guidance in defense, and then we never followed through on it, because I understood you really didn't want to push that too hard.
So as of now, they are the lightest of any department of the government.
And they are going down, I think, something like 34,000.
And that's all because of the congressional cuts in their programs.
They don't have any alternatives.
On the contractor part, there's about a 60,000 decline.
That is purely and simply because there's just not as much ammunition and stuff like that being expended.
On the other hand, the defense contracting curve is turning up.
And in the OSB, we are wholly aware of the chapter 30 command of the proposition that if each entity can boost every thinking and energy combined to energy defense, things will create jobs.
Mr. President, I have been going through that budget.
We sent in a special supplemental.
We said building the dams, the rivers, the harbors, everything we can think of.
Oh, yeah.
I spent a hour and a half with Arthur.
I'll tell you, it was some session.
You don't need to tell me it was some session.
I called him and told him when the spur went down.
That's a good thing.
And I called up to the block, and I wish to God I hadn't.
Well, on this, a problem is, and OMB has been writing defense to spend more money.
Their problem is that in the first five months of the year, they have only spent $28 billion.
They haven't had a $6 billion month yet.
Of last year.
In fiscal 1972, we have now got the month through November, we know what their outliers have been.
Now, you have six to 28, 34, double it, 68.
And we're carrying, at least, we're counting on them for 74 billion in outliers.
Now, they say they're going to make it.
And I hope they do, and we're pounding on them to.
It means a big amount of spending in the first half of next year.
Good.
for that level, and this 73 bucket that we have will continue that right on with no let-up.
Now, the F-111 isn't really going to put that in these 70...
It shouldn't even have the F-111.
It's a... Well, this is included in, as we see it, the F-111.
I hate to see us buy another 12 F-111s.
The Air Force doesn't even want the plane...
And it's a very, it's a very expensive way to create a few jobs.
But anyway, that's in there.
George and I were talking this morning.
Both of us agree that we are not spending enough on defense.
But both of us also agree that if we gave them more money, they wouldn't spend it on the right things.
I know, I know.
I mean, they've got that Air Force, for example.
Well, for example, we've got a plan that can do anything.
Well, for example, we've tried to get them, George, for the past four days to put a strike in the north Vietnam on some areas that have been shot down.
The bastards can't have got anything that can fly unless it's absolutely weather-like.
They don't.
As you said, we had the worst administration.
We gave them authority in November 7th.
Then we gave them authority in February 7th.
Then we gave them authority in September of this year.
They couldn't execute it.
Now we gave them another authority in December.
So we've had to enforce in five different languages.
Well, could I settle that with a 78.5 plus 50?
That's all right, but on the understanding of what we're going to print and so on, and then we can...
It might be 78.6 to 86, sir.
That doesn't make any difference.
The main thing is to settle on it.
He is to be an enthusiastic child advocate of our position.
He's to talk to the hardliners.
He's to talk to the butlers, to the right-wingers, and say those are the health and defense questions.
Is that clear to you?
And he can do that, I'll say, and do that with a clear conscience, because it is.
All right, well, I think that would be a good thing to do.
If he has one.
He argues that.
Well, that may be, but as far as policy and defense is concerned, the substance is terrifically important.
You need these things.
All right.
I'll get it in here.
I have a great idea.
I have a great idea.
I will be prepared to handle the problems at this point.
And I am going to do it.
Well, my guess is that he wants to talk to you about the appointment process.
Well, I don't hold him to the whole government.
He thinks that he should do it.
He is going to work in that way.
Well, he has interviewed Sheehan, who is your nominee, and he admits that Sheehan is a good person.
He's impressed with him.
We spent a long time on this in our discussion.
And I think that a clear statement on how you intend to go about it would be satisfying to him.
Now, he would like to control it, but he agrees that it's a presidential appointment.
And I think that we don't belong.
any agency or board where I call the agency, all of a sudden I got a little thing, who do you want on the board?
You can't do that.
That's what I felt, that that's not the best of a cycle.
Well, hell, you can do it with Berger.
Berger, you know, hasn't, we, one thing I do do, they can submit names.
Sure.
And the other thing we do do, I would not put somebody on the board that was totally, he was totally against.
I wouldn't do that because I want to harm, harm, harm Ronnie Sporting.
He can't control it.
Well, I think it would be good to say that to him.
He agrees that the money supply should now go up.
Is he going to do it?
He says he should.
My economy believes I should.
I don't know if you don't think so.
Or is it going to be knowing the cat too much?
Well, the Open Market Committee, he told me, voted for an increase in the money supply.
Last week, in fact, it did go up.
Now, whether it's just another flip like the other one we had or not.
How many hours?
I heard you got two months out of here.
It's time for this desk here, not just a chair.
Where do you think you're going?
Sit down, sit down.
Wow, you're ready for holidays.
I'm glad it's over.
You're getting off in 15 minutes before you.
You still have to listen to those.
Do what?
You still have to be grown up.
Yeah, son of a...
You know, he is.
He's a very handsome boar.
He is a boar.
And, of course, the sorrow of this thing is painful.
It's painful to sit and talk to him.
They create a little hurt.
Oh, I'm treating him well.
He doesn't treat them well.
I don't think that's going to happen.
play golf.
This will be the first in the United States.
Well, it's the first time I've played.
I've only played a couple of times a year.
It's the last three years.
The first in the United States.
I don't remember any foreigner that played golf.
I don't think there was a better use of that.
You know, the kid will be there.
He'll go out there and play golf.
And did you ever give him an hand in the first place?
No.
All right.
All right.
No, no, I've not done that.
That's right.
No.
Unbelievable view.
Unbelievable view.
I'll see that you're invited.
I'd like to bring him.
Why don't you come to the West Coast?
He's going to be there with Mrs. Brady.
You'd love to go.
But you're going to stop.
That's great.
Now, right across the bay, at the ferry, where he goes, right?
Where is it?
I don't know.
But there's an apartment right there.
And I'm going to sleep.
All right.
And do a little reading, get a bit of sunshine, go on to the kitchen, catch up on sleep.
That's one major activity.
Are you?
You, yes.
I don't know.
I'm trying.
I'm just always trying.
I leave usually once a week.
Once a week, I try to not have anything in the morning, so I sleep late.
It's very difficult.
Sometimes it works.
I know my problem.
Sure, sure.
I've got a Federal Reserve problem.
I want to get on that a little bit again.
The Federal Reserve is the closest thing that we have to Supreme Court plans.
That's right.
I am saying it works.
I want to leave it a better place.
Well, I promise.
I'm sure you do.
Now, I need some guidelines.
We're going to have a new one that's coming.
We have one right at the end of January.
We do have another?
At the end of January.
That's right.
Okay.
The one in January.
What about that one?
Now that I don't know if he goes down, you know, there's a possibility that I may get Roberts under my chairman's rule.
And I've got plans for that, but I don't know how much leeway he's going to give me.
I don't know.
Now that's for you to decide.
I'm going to tell you my problem.
I want to tell you my problem.
Now here, I had an arrangement for this reason.
It was all...
The arrangement was that I would pick the man, invest in my building, and check him over with Connolly, and that would be acceptable to you.
Now, I spent weeks looking for a man.
He voted ahead of my time searching for a man in the South, and I thought he wanted me.
He wanted me from that area.
I found that the upstanding man, Thompson, the, uh, not only was he persuading him to take the vote, the man would break the way off when he's connected to all kinds of civic and religious events.
I had a staff of attorneys working over his affairs so that there would be no conflict of interest problem.
He didn't have any difficulty in the Senate, and the Federal Reserve didn't have any.
I cleared it all with the Civil Service Commission, and the only thing left to write about all that preparatory work, that I submit the name to the White House.
Another rule that we're changing now.
Three names were to be submitted.
The man who's finally chosen was the third man on my list.
I'm not complaining, but I want to live to the future.
I don't think the decision was at this moment, President.
I'll tell you why.
I think she is a good man.
I don't mean to say that.
But here, what do we know about him?
The knowledge I can describe as follows.
He is a great director of one of our banks.
So some of our people are cool with what we want to have.
I checked with two Federal Reserve men, and they recommended him to me.
I spent two hours with him, and he impressed me most favorably.
Then Mr. Madden did some checking, and I thought, well, I don't need to check.
Probably, I would guess, with political people, men, especially.
All right, he did vote.
But you see, the, uh, the, uh, Thomson, here's what Thomson, uh, I'm not complaining, I just want to indicate how the problem happened.
Thomson has served on the Federal Reserve System for years.
His last five years he was chairman of the board of the Dallas Bank.
He knows my presence at the bank as a chairman of the board.
He has great prestige for that group.
In the year ahead, I'm going to have difficulties with my presidents keeping them in line.
They've opened up the Federal Open Market Committee.
I have difficulties with the last meeting.
I kept them there till 4 o'clock to get what I want.
I used up a lot of my good will.
I still hope to keep them in line.
He would have helped me.
She had a year or two from her.
Maybe in a position along with someone else.
We can't do it next year.
Well, that's history.
Now, for the future, I'd like to know the guidelines.
No sense in my spending weeks looking for a man and then finding him just every time.
What way it should be done is this, that I didn't use the analogy of the Supreme Court.
We sell and consult.
I don't think we consult with the chairman.
In other words, there is not really a regional plan or a qualified basis, you know.
Uh, in the case of the, I think the two agencies where we put the, where I put the funding everywhere is the Freedom Court and the IRS.
The reason is, first, they're very important.
Second, they're basically lifetime funds.
Years of, I mean, 17 years is the lifetime.
More importantly, 14 years is the lifetime.
You know what I mean?
Take them, you're appointing men who are pretty narrow.
I mean, you wouldn't find him by less than 40, so he finishes at 64 or so, probably, and then have the life.
Second thing is that it's a very, very close relationship.
and be in the same room together.
I know that's the case probably more with Bert than with you, but I don't know how you operate.
But I help with Bert.
Those guys sit around in that room with no words or anything else, and decide what to do.
I imagine you do the same thing.
All right, so let me put it this way.
On the one side, you mentioned to me that somebody, or somebody's mentioned to me that Roosevelt or somebody tried to impact the Federal Reserve and then raised holy hell that you had people who were antagonists on the Federal Reserve.
That doesn't mean they all did a lot.
The same, in my view,
That might work.
That might work, for example, if somebody succeeds me, and then who's just chair interviews, and he'd try to get somebody that's here surrounding him.
But in my view, you have to have a compatible group from the board.
That means that the chairman of the board must be consultant.
And when an appointment is made, not only his views as to who it would be, but also if we
that we have to consider others as well.
Whoever we move must not be one who is considered to be incompatible or unacceptable to the chairman of the Fed.
Now, let me explain.
This is exactly the way we did it for Berger.
It had to be done very carefully.
I can't talk to this Chief Justice like I do to you, because it wouldn't be correct.
But Mitchell talks to him all the time.
And Metro ran every name that was submitted to the bar by him.
There were two or three he didn't want to call.
He said, this isn't going to work.
Just because he was named.
He was the one that was vitally opposed to a woman.
He said, look, he said, you can't set nine people around.
I didn't have a woman in that room.
Now, maybe that's going to change someday.
But maybe the woman didn't get it.
It doesn't show you, it gives you an idea that it's true.
Well, I'd like to see one that's so confident.
I take both.
But if you could find a good woman, you say, George, you have this in mind, I like to, my thing about women is to make appointments to things that they've never been on before.
If you could find one, I'd put them on.
But I doubt there are any women knowing anything about this, sir.
I'm going to tell you one of these people, a daughter of Jim Eaney.
Oh, yeah, a Californian?
Hoffman is it?
Oh, Claire, Claire Jim Eaney Hoffman.
Oh, fantastic woman.
I haven't heard of her.
I know her.
Yeah, and there's quite a gal up here in New Jersey, too, my old friend.
Which one?
The head of the Canada, uh, is that a transit van?
Yeah, I'm waiting for it.
You'll be longer.
Now, wait a minute.
I've got to tell you something.
You, uh... Well, George, you forget this.
We, uh... Did trouble.
Well, ma'am, I... Well, it's rolling, rolling, rolling.
I worked on your task forces.
Yeah, yeah.
I had her on one of the task forces.
Yeah.
Anyway, I gave it to my mother.
That's New Jersey.
But then he said, the way we ought to do it is this.
I think what happened here is that we put you in a spot.
It's embarrassing.
It won't happen again.
on the next fight.
First of all, I've got to do the final process through now because of the reason.
The reason is that there are many, he checks them very carefully.
He does all the FBI checks on them.
Also, he knows the political things.
He knows some of the process.
He's systematic.
He knows what it is.
And he's anonymous.
He never, never makes anybody share.
In your case, you should have more authority
that burger in the sense of recommending.
On the other hand, it must be understood that other names will also come up that you may not turn up.
So what we would like to do, what I'd like to do is when the next department comes around, Malik talks to you.
Malik will talk around among other people and maybe talk to George and others.
And of course, we didn't know, we got a spanner.
You wouldn't really even know.
There are 20 or 25 people that are recommended for this thing that we didn't even consider from the Congress people.
And they're all our friends.
So we just said no.
But in your case, what we have to do is to at least give these fellows a chance to put it in.
And sometimes they turn up a good man.
Sometimes.
Once we then get it down to a certain point, before we go to the making an offer, then I have to come in.
I have to, I would then get to the point where Malik would say, well, I hear three or four names.
Burns feels strongly that this is a good name, the best name, and he would probably read them.
Connolly likes this one, and Schultz, and I like this one.
He says, I like this one.
There's a political problem with this one.
We need help in Kentucky.
We can do this and that, assuming the guys qualify in other ways, and so forth.
And then, under those circumstances, I don't pick a name.
The one thing that I will assure you of is two accounts, where you first convert
Matthew and I have an understanding, we never stayed to it, that nobody would be appointed to the court, but we are here, that he disapproves of.
Both Powell and Granquist were approved of by her.
And also that Herb, as he said at the top of the meeting, he looked at it for reasons that he understood, but we're not.
In your case, nobody would be appointed to the vet if you disapprove of them.
In other words, that's the line George is here to work up with Malik.
And nobody's going to be one to defend our discipline.
But second, as distinguished from the burden of his work, he has, I can't achieve justice, just sort of.
where there are any number of lawyers to do the court.
This is such a highly technical thing.
I can't give you as much of the responsibility that I have given you as I want to give you in terms of recommending things and so on.
I want you to consult very closely with Mellie and get an intuition.
I will pay a great deal of attention to what you say.
You understand?
But the problem is I can't put me in a position where somebody asks, well, what about the chair of the Finance and the Fed?
I say, well, Burns gets it.
See, I can't do that.
But I have to add, what I'm saying here is that nobody will be appointed this unacceptable human.
In other words, that if you're accused about who should be appointed from a technical standpoint, we'll receive, of course, the primary weight.
Well, that's what I want to do.
Well, I appreciate that, Mr. President.
He could have worked it out, but that's what Ricky Haldeman meant.
I'd like to tell you this, Steve.
He didn't get it across the front of the way because we didn't have a mount on it properly set up.
Wait, what?
Not many of your colleagues will look at it for some other reason.
Well, I don't know.
Oh, you see.
I'm sorry.
He's probably.
I hear nothing good about that.
He's probably hurt.
Hey, we can't have her, but for a reason, we just can't run another test in there, right, Tom?
The finance company, there's too many voters there.
Who's the president?
He just became a voter by college, too, John.
The, you know, the known as one of the, actually, the close friends.
I know they are, but the president, I think you won't consider this a proper name, but I'd like to hear what I think.
Maybe what you think is right, naturally.
The, uh...
I feel it's entirely proper and anything else would be improper to have Connolly, you see, go over the appointment and indicate to me what he thinks.
And I wouldn't want anyone on the Federal Reserve Board who's not acceptable to Connolly.
But if I have a number one man and another one is number three, I don't really think it's proper for Connolly or desirable for Connolly.
to move the number three man to number one place, when I sweated it out, and I have all kinds of considerations, and in the moment of time, I...
I would agree.
I would agree with that.
But let me say that in this instance, Conley's getting the bad rap now.
He didn't move Shia.
Shia's not Conley's man.
As a matter of fact, Shia then is just between us.
It's very important to us for reasons of political violence.
Kentucky is a very, very, very important place to go.
That's what really is involved, I can assure you.
This was not, he was not a Coms employee.
He's not very close to Coms.
Coms is closer to the NFL.
Coms is, he knows that now.
Coms initiated for the first time, as I can assure you, that this was a mallet where, frankly, mallet, where I said, look, you've got to, if you want somebody from this area, this is the guy who is the most good, and he is qualified.
And that's what they like to do.
But don't get the impression that we're going to play the lion, you against Khan and Reichler.
We can't do that.
Obviously, you work with all these people, and also because of our personal relationship.
Your recommendations, I said, will have primary weight.
I mean, I always take it for political reasons, but on a head-to-head, primary weight.
And I have the way to work it out.
And I have one thing, Lord.
Sure.
Now, first half, we ought to start with each other right now.
Get some names.
So that we don't get into this sort of flack.
Don't talk.
Don't tell anybody anything.
Wait until later, until we get to the department.
One thing more.
Yeah, I hope that's acceptable.
Yeah, yeah.
But submit and list the names, too.
Yeah.
Before you make your decision, talk to you.
I'm sure you can talk to me.
The first thing is that I just helped talking to George and Henry.
I said, before you came in, I said, there's one thing I will not do.
I won't do it with burns.
I won't do it with burns.
I'm not going to put oil and water together because we cannot do that.
I mean, I want the thing to work together.
You understand?
But I only say that because I know you.
That's the thing.
We're in a different relationship.
I'm not sure it's it with Martin.
I don't know about Martin.
I have to tell you something.
Now, look, and I have that just so that I'm sure I'm not going to raise the point.
But these people that are asking me about money supply, Bernie's going to take care of it, correct?
You're all open to that for themselves.
Bernie does not want to.
Don't break it.
You're independent.
Independent.
Get it out.
I don't want any more nasty literature people about it.
They don't know.
The thing is, they don't understand it.
And I know that it's very complicated.
I thought this was a matter of fact.
I thought it was a matter of fact.
I thought it was a matter of fact.
I said, I saw it on the 500 million, then I found the 310, 200, I read somewhere.
He said, well, he says, apparently, you've got to realize that those numbers don't mean all that much.
But the whole point is, get it up, you know, burn it up.
Take it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I'll write that up and I'll give that to Malik.
Yes, sure.
Well, that's the way to do it.
But then, of course, this leaves the screen.
He has a primary wage.
There will be names that he does not want.
So the primary wage is what he wants.
That's fair enough.
Not only fair enough, but I think it really is a...
That position for you to be in, to have people feel a very controlled phenomenon.
Oh.
The only way to get in charge is to be in the emergency room.
See, by the way, we've got a very effective video.
But we sure as heck can't be, uh, absolutely controlled.
Now, let me supply that.
You should, uh, you know, I read your letter.
I pushed the comment.
Did you read the Friedman letter?
Did I read it?
He said, what the hell is happening?
Yeah, well, Friedman really put it to him.
Yeah.
But do you think that affects Archer?
The one Friedman will probably write that, more or less, in a newsweek column.
Right.
That'll be helpful.
Archer is affected by this.
And we've also, we've got to try to have many people to be...
Because I don't want any anxiety.
And I know that we got, that it went down before.
But he made a statement.
You heard it again.
Put that down, too.
Put that down in your notes.
You know what I mean?
That last was not a side effect.
Or a meeting.
He said, I'm on the line.
I'm on the line.
I'm on the line.
The Open Market Committee, you told us, did vote to have an increase in the money supply last week.
And the figures last week did go up.
And we don't know whether that's a blip or not.
At least it is consistent with the policies that they've followed.
If I could just get you on two other things.
The Consumer Price Index will come out this afternoon.
Have you heard that number?
It's pretty good.
Up two-tenths of a point.
Last month it was two-tenths up unadjusted and one-tenths seasonally adjusted.
What is it this time?
It's two-tenths both ways this time.
I see.
The three-month change, that is from August through November, seasonally adjusted is 1.7%, and that's
That is, I haven't had a chance to search back historically to find when we've had a three-month period that way.
It must be back into the middle 60s.
Middle 60s, yeah.
So that's pretty good.
And the year-over-year increase is now 3.5%.
That'll keep coming down as we go along.
So we're well.
It's just because of the way the numbers work.
One thing that we did not raise today, I mostly raised with you, is this concern about the pay-for-the-price conditions.
I don't know if he's right or not, except that I am totally committed to getting rid of both.
And so what I want you to talk to Rami about and everybody else, I want you to realize that I am not for the damn thing.
And if we can
And so therefore, I want them to do the best they can.
But let's get to the back pages and then get it out as soon as we can.
That's my opinion.
Do you agree?
Yes, sir.
Or do you see some other answer, George?
You see, in my point of view, when I'm raised with a man, I just tell him, I'll tell you, I don't believe these things.
We have one thing I just want to check with you.
I think I'm proceeding on the track you want.
It has to do with federal pay.
We talked about that some time ago.
We took a position in the Congress that we were against the bribe.
And we made the point that if we were going to have the 5.5%, it would be an annual rate.
Now, it's controversial.
as far as the legislation is concerned, whether that is the congressional intent.
At least it's ambiguous enough so it can be interpreted to mean that the October 1 comparability increase is not automatic by virtue of the fact of the Economic Stabilization Act overruling the Comparability Act.
And that is the track that we're on.
And that's what's behind this discussion about defense, because that relieves the defense budget of all that money.
And so it's astounding to me how much a little bit makes in terms of defense budget.
Well, we're all, we're virtually unanimous on taking that position now so Congress can see if they don't like it.
They can roll us.
I feel as though they very surely will.
Bob Hampton is unhappy about it, and I promised him that I would.
Why is he?
What's he thinking about it?
Well, he thinks the October 1 increase ought to be foregone, but he thinks you should wait until June, and then you should send up an ultimate plan and have the Congress vote on it one way or another the way we did the six-month postponement and just handle it that way.
that is not a time of year when anyone is going to stand up and vote against this pay raise, I don't think.
And to the extent that we want to interpret the act as giving us the ability to forego the increase, it seems to me we ought to say so clearly now, and then if people feel the act isn't being
properly interpret it, they can make a change.
And I imagine they will.
But at least we will be trying to .
Well, the last time around, we opposed it, but we didn't make a big issue out of it.
We were content to be wrong.
That's right.
Let's just let it go .
Well, we'll go ahead on that track.
George, on the money supply, you follow that closely.
Oh, I want you to call a comment.
I gave a report to this conversation.
I mean, I had a report, so I'm going to make a process.
But I, uh, the part, part of it was, of course, showing his, uh, again, his smallness when he thought that comedy is jealousy.
Comedy, comedy didn't fix you.
He didn't buy it.
But I want a comment.
Now if it's very good.
Oh, excellent.
And Conley said, well, sorry to meet you.
He said, he thought the other call was the other arm.
He had the same civil rights and FBI checkmate, civil service checkmate, and promising the job.
That's his problem.
We cannot do that.
That all has got to be, that's the other thing.
I have got to appoint the man.
I've got to name the man promising the job.
And just treat him as a man.
All right.
Well, I think they've got a chance to talk to you about the monitor.
We must understand that we cannot
Well, let me say, Joseph,
It should be a matter of discernment, because they don't work in vertigo.
It's only a branch.
They want to put them up.
They're not bad.
But I said, no, in vertigo, if you would ask Henry to take his notes there, because he said, I mentioned plenty of them.
And I said it even stronger than that.
Whatever it was, I know I made the point to him yesterday.
If they were to be against us all, the capital control program,
a convict or somebody, but you're not in our meetings.
Do you want to do that?
Yes, that's certainly good.
Okay, bye.
Well, anyway, I'm going to say I've gone and handled it very well.
It's been a great time.
Well, everybody, I always like reservations about everything I do.
It's been wonderful.
I hope so, too.
He deserved a lot of support, and I tried to give it to him.
Right, I know.