Conversation 643-005

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Move it up about six inches.

All right.

Okay, let's put the gun around the wall now.

And I will say, shoot.

And we decided we like a smiling present, a fun-looking present.

So we're going to make them both way.

We'll make them just a little tumble, and then we'll make a couple of smiles.

You know, like this here.

And Collin, you can click on that trigger now.

We can try a couple of things like that.

That's nice.

Let it go.

We're just about ready.

Give me a little smile this time, sir.

Come on, let me see, let me see.

Come on.

Good smile.

That's right, sir.

Come on, let me see, let me see.

Good, good.

All right.

Right again now.

That's right, right again.

Right to him.

I know it's tough to go, but you're a smart guy.

I'm not a smart guy.

I'm not a CEO.

Vice President, the way I see it, a happy president.

Here we go, Carl.

There you go.

Here we go, right there, yes.

Now, a little more of a campaign look this time.

We're gonna go out and we're gonna give him a visit.

We're in a pretty good position to give it to him now.

The eye's right on that table.

Good.

He's at high speed, so move him.

Now, here we go again.

Give me a nice wide open grin this time.

That's it, come on.

All right, once again.

On my eyes now, those eyes on my eyes.

Now let me see that smile.

Good, come on, open up, here we go.

One more, all right.

Once again, right here, all right.

He's got a good smile now.

Here we go.

Come on, open it up, there we go.

All right.

Change the mic.

Rest a minute, sir.

All right.

4-12-8-9.

See, he's got it.

He's got it.

Here you go.

That daylight's safe.

I don't know.

Now, we just lose more of your energy.

Here, that's fine.

All right, all right, all right.

Now, I'm going to get it to this side.

All right, fine.

Let me just check the scale here, please.

Now, the eyes on the left.

We'll try about four or five cell phone shots, but not two cell phones, but just a little 12.

Oh, yeah, I see.

Now, look, raise the eyes to the top of my head where it's spinning out there.

All right, here, I'm going to lift it.

Are you ready now?

Stand up, you're ready, tell me.

You're ready?

All right.

Try that again.

I'm ready.

All right, tell me.

Good.

The same thing, Carl.

And watch the top, the peak of the smile.

I'm going to try three to four smiley shots when you're through, Mr. President.

Just think of that.

All right, then.

I'll give you that nice, good, President Nixon smile.

Write it all back in there, and we're going to write on it both immediately after we get Mr. Blue back on.

Thank you.

Again with a smile.

Now this time, Mr. President, I'm going to have you look up to one of my hands.

Right.

So I hold the chin.

I want those eyes up.

I want those eyes up to here.

And a smile.

I want to raise the eyes a little up like this.

Got it.

Now here, give me a nice smile now.

Right to there.

Six, seven, eight.

All right.

We're going to get down on the old cocoa.

All right.

There we go.

We got a couple of bums, and they spread a nasty rumor.

And I was surprised.

I went down to see them.

Sir, I know it's a very good time.

Good to see you.

Merry Christmas to you.

Thank you.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

And then I'll go for a few minutes and then we'll go.

You could have been supposed to come.

I don't know.

Thank you very much, sir.

All right, that's all you have.

Thank you.

Good luck.

Thanks for your trouble.

All right, so we're doing both Ed and Trisha, and David and Julie.

All right, let me go down and see how that goes.

I'll be down here.

Let's go.

Of course, Mr. President.

I'm called.

Your age is younger than mine.

Oh, sir.

You're... 58.

You're what?

38.

When did you born?

August.

19, 30.

January.

19, 30.

Eight months older.

Yeah, eight months older.

Okay, okay.

Yep, uh...

He's right upstairs.

If you'd like to just come outside and just try it out.

I know we have a golf game, aren't we?

Hello, what tennis?

Oh, this is tennis.

Oh, I thought I had a chance to tell you.

You're in great shape.

This is great.

You know, golf, I tend to sort it down to your partner, so.

Oh, yeah.

And, uh, that's great.

Let's see, uh...

Oh, let me show you something great.

Look at this.

Walter Anker, my partner's ambassador to London, got this made.

You see, that's the person I just sealed.

It's a course made specifically for this.

Isn't that a nice thing?

He's a great, he's sort of a kind of guy that, you know, you probably haven't met him, but he's just a person, he's an officer, he's exceptional.

The fireman still does a big thing about TV guys at Palm Springs.

But he loves beautiful things.

And he said to me, so I put that inside of the picture.

You don't recognize him?

That's Washington.

No.

That's Washington by the older people.

There are many people still who did this with Washington's parents or something down there.

Seeing he's still here, I wanted to see the dogs.

I thought you had a mistake.

Prior to the 3.30 meeting, I'd like to see Peter Peterson for a short period of time here at the National Economic Council met this morning.

I feel it's important that Peterson give you a rundown on it.

Perhaps you might want to do it prior to your coverage of the study.

I'm Steve Roberts.

No, he didn't.

He doesn't understand Peterson.

This one's new.

We received a fill from Peterson on what transpired this morning, sir.

Oh, I see.

Thank you.

That's right.

Peterson will come in.

Just for a moment, sir.

All right, sir.

Bye.

The whole group is coming in.

Yes, sir.

The others are.

I just felt you might be able to get a picture of them.

If this is reported on this morning, I'll have your attention.

Of course, there's a need for arms.

I put more into this surgery than most people do, because my operations are not, it's an embarrassment to the group.

They do an excellent job.

I read it, but I don't use it

I mean, I don't work as hard as I used to.

I mean, I know more about it.

It's the main question.

The main question.

I'm sure there's some people in Cambodia.

That's what I...

Yeah, but if there is, it's wrong.

You have to follow the right reasoning.

But see, if there are things he's wrong, so if not wrong, it's precise.

If I get wrong, I get wrong.

I want you to go back and read all the way through, you know.

I mean, it's better than the other column.

Here's the economic stuff.

But here's mine, you see.

I get it down, and it points to me.

And so they wham, wham, wham, wham.

And you get it.

So for us, it's true.

Well, it isn't as good as it could be.

I mean, I often think that sometimes we spend more time, spend more time, that it isn't worth it.

Well, I feel for you when you do these, because I, just watching them, I get sedated, you know, I couldn't get the food until four o'clock that night.

People become foul.

Oh, God, I get thinking of every question, and I relive it, and I just, I'm only watching it with you, I'm not in there picturing, but I feel like it when it's over, yeah.

It's a...

That was as much of an emotional role as last night.

I think it was rather... You heard that he called all of them.

you notice that one small thing that you notice all through this book preparation has uh when you know what they have and i feel this about me which of course was johnson's

I said, Mr. Raddick, Mr. Raddick, Mr. Raddick.

Well, it also projects you with a great deal of dignity.

And Bob said that you were concerned that you should have hit him on a couple of times, right?

I don't agree.

I think that you... Well, some people felt...

I mean, they had the...

They felt that after one of my press conferences.

You remember the one where they kept badgering and badgering me about not giving up the attention?

Yeah.

And all that kind of thing.

He said, Mike, he said, no, look, I've answered that question three times.

I'm not going to answer it again.

I'll take the next question.

He probably was right.

I should have said it.

Something, not, I don't know.

How was it that way with the music?

Yes, but the tone of last night, Mr. President, the lighting, the mood of the room, the way it was set up, your restraint and dignity came through.

And calling him Mr. Rather is just part of that.

And you patted him on the head a couple of times.

Yes.

You know, you said, where are you working?

Which home are you talking about?

Your office or your what?

I mean, you just, you put it down so nicely that I think if you had that...

When I talked to CBS, I said, that's what's reported, as you know, on CBS.

Right, that's true.

I didn't remember it was reported on CBS.

What's beautiful is that you reported on CBS.

That caught it.

He wasn't sure that I, maybe I hadn't studied that way.

He said, I don't know, he reported it with your mouth.

I got it.

You got him wondering.

Well, he was on the spot.

He's, when you think about it, he's, uh... Well, just think, the guy is the biggest goddamn thing that ever happened in the past.

Sure.

And he's, he's trying to step into the shoes of Cronkite and Silver-Eyed.

He wants to make one of those top jobs.

Right.

And he's competing with Mike Wallace on it.

Mike was a man because he was a selector.

Mike, for some reason, sent a message to Henry Kissinger, who was one of their friends.

If you did select him, Wallace would be a perfect guy to select because he's been getting friendly and conservative.

He's come a long way since he used to be a raving liberal.

But it's a mixed question for him, Mr. President, because he didn't come off that well.

No, sir.

I didn't see it and I didn't reply to it.

So I was telling you to get a picture of us.

And the judge also, there was some very bad answers.

I really hate all of them.

I don't know if there are people in trouble or not in trouble.

For others, it's good.

But he wants out.

For others, it's good.

They couldn't control it.

The network has to do it their own way.

Others said the picture was okay.

Well, I was in the minority at the 815 meeting.

I felt the picture was excellent, very, very good.

And George didn't like it because he said it looked down on you and made your eyes smaller, sort of jowly.

But it didn't come across that way to me at all.

It came across with you looking very firm, very strong.

Well, they could have done better.

And it was good.

And the tone was right.

There was something about the room and the lighting that was very effective.

It was low-key.

And that's why Rather looked bad, because Rather tried to get kind of sharp and abrasive, and he looked a little immature.

He didn't look...

I don't think, well, I...

It was quite impressive the way he'd done all his homework and brought out his little cards.

Oh, he'd organized...

He'd read all those things.

Of course, some people, some people would resent that.

They'd say, for Christ's sake, the President sat there on a note and he had to read his questions off the cards, but he didn't prove anybody with that.

Well, I tried to, after we got all of us, I had Harry Gantt call some of the political people around the country to see how they reacted.

And it's interesting, all of them, almost all of them, mentioned Rather.

Rather, I'm sure.

They're mad at Rather.

They don't think, like, they didn't care what I said.

Well, no, they went both ways.

The interview went very well for the president, John Andrews.

He feels that Andrews was struck by Rather's aggressive attitude and direct question.

But if you go through these, about half of them thought it was the best performance you'd ever had on television, which I think is...

Radha's hostility and President's coolness showed contrast between the sniping kid and dignified statesman.

Strong reaction from people saying it was the best interview that the President ever had.

I was a Florida National Committee woman.

Everybody thought that you came through very, very well, and about a quarter of them have volunteered for comments about Radha.

But when you go to the political people, almost all of them talk about Radha.

because they're sensitized to the media hostility.

And from that standpoint, that's a good thing, because... Yeah, the media hostility is really... Well, our friend Hank and a lot of people look at you, don't you think?

I imagine he does today, yeah.

And all the nuts do look real good.

Yeah.

When I say the nuts, I mean the people that support everything.

Because I couldn't have done more, Chuck, than I did.

I mean, if I'd gone a bit further, it would have been presumptuous, because I'm not a candidate myself.

But I didn't do it like Eisenhower.

I said, well, I haven't made my own decision.

Therefore, I can't be presumptuous.

Obviously, the convention will make that decision, but I guess just to give you a curtain on my own thinking, I believe that the winning team, they don't break it up.

I think this is a very strong statement for us.

Well, it was a very important statement.

political service, President, because it doesn't tie your hands.

Your options are open, as they should be.

Let's say our options are open only.

It's like, for example, I've done the same thing with Hoover and the farm around me, and Lovett and all that sort of thing, because I cannot get rid of Hoover.

Well, not only that, but in the meantime, between now and the convention, the media would just have a field day trying to drive you and Agnew apart, speculating on Connelly, speculating on others.

This is...

We did accomplish a few things last night.

How did you like the way I stuck it to him, that 68 bomb hole?

Because that son of a bitch was talking about that.

He didn't raise that question when they pulled the bomb hole.

If there was anything ever as political as that was.

And not a one of them speak to that.

No, nobody ever said it was politics.

Oh, you stuck it to him last night about six times.

Massively.

The premise is?

Last night.

Yeah, and beautifully on the press.

I mean, when you talked about presses, I noticed a pool where the press has their own credibility.

They have.

Oh, hell.

Air shows the press is down, too.

Wait a minute.

We all have a responsibility to build it up.

That kills us on the brink, because it gets in the way of that cocky snide attitude.

He won't have a cocky snide attitude this morning.

What have you been able to do?

There's been a lot of telegrams.

Letters, 1030.

Let's see if I can find this.

Yeah, by 10.30 there had been about 60 phone calls to his office.

His secretary was virtually in tears because she wouldn't let calls through to him.

But she kept saying to the callers, you're complaining?

We all thought he did so beautifully.

And one of the last reports I had was that she was just terribly distraught over the call.

She was taking the messages faithfully.

The first thing he did was, we all here wanted people wanting to see Jesse.

People wanted him to be great because he was in the agency.

See, they were cheering him on.

They thought that's what they wanted to see.

We wouldn't know our copy, but it's Manolo.

It's Manolo around, and he'd go out.

He just went over to the residence and finished packing.

Why did he do it?

All right.

We do have a lot of software to put him on his phone.

Well, I think just a few calls, don't even lose, because otherwise they'd all be sitting around there smug and batting and spanking at her.

Unfortunately, we don't have the waiter.

We've got Jerry Warren, who's fine, but he's a punctual one to me.

He's just out there.

But this is no time for my hard-pressed kind of shit.

I've got someone doing that who does it on a very effective, very low-key basis.

I told him today that

Get out of the office and circulate with the press people that he talks to.

I haven't had the report back from him.

I'll have it this evening from some way.

I just don't want to go out and talk to his friends.

He's written a letter to Rabbit.

He said, I'm not asking you for a correction, but I'm sending you this note to say that while I appreciate your quoting our surveys, I also hope in the future they can be quoted

in the context in which they are asked and reported, goes on to tell precisely what the questions were.

And he said, the one point I thought was quite out of context was your assertion that only about one-third thought the President had kept his promises made in 1968.

While technically correct, in fact, the division is quite close, 44 to 37 percent, that he has not kept his promises.

The implication of the way you put it was that by two to one, most people think the President has not kept his promises.

And he just takes each one of his fold cushions.

Now, he's letting me give this to Evans and Obeck and one or two others, so we'll create a little rift between them.

He can't help but fight them because he needs their business.

How many of his best off?

Oh, genuinely.

Oh, God, he was in sense last night.

I was going to say, he thinks you're best when you're under that kind of...

Your points do come across a hell of a lot stronger that way.

While it's tougher on you, I know, nonetheless, it's a better way to make problems.

I don't know if an audience should get this kind of thing.

You're up against it.

These specials at that time of the night don't get a hell of a big audience.

A Christmas show is only 10 million.

Well, it depends how you read it, the Christmas show.

They may have gotten more than that because Nielsen doesn't take the overall number of sets in use that week.

So you have to project based on the New York ratings

And if you did, which came out at 7.6%, and it would just depend on how many sets were on that night.

It could be anywhere from 10 to 12 to 15 on the Christmas Eve program.

And NBC is convinced on the earlier one, the day of the presidency, that they had over 15.

They are saying 18 to 20.

Yes, sir.

On a 7.3 rating.

You see it, which is...

Right.

But... No, not for a public service program.

Not when it was running against entertainment on both other networks.

And... Well... That's... No, that's what you get with...

Howard K. Smith was lower than that.

They got more than Howard Smith.

It was around five-something.

And that was 11 million, if you remember.

Howard Smith was 11 million at 5.6, I think.

So they... NBC was very satisfied with their...

But the interesting thing about the Christmas at the White House night was that you increased the rating over the preceding program, which never happens with public service.

That means that people...

changed from another channel to CBS to see that Christmas Eve program.

That means they really had one.

They promoted that well, and people were aware of it and wanted to see it.

One thing I think we ought to do, though, is...

I did a couple of people who are, understand, don't get caught in the White House.

Don't get some goddamn thing in the columns in the White House that stipulates letters.

You know what I mean?

This is terribly hard because we've got so many goddamn leaders.

But the idea that somebody

Some of the important moderators came.

Some of the important moderators did.

I mean, I wouldn't let them think that they did this.

I'd let them think that they did this.

As a matter of fact, they made this mistake.

Oh, I think they will, yeah.

I mean, if our calls show this, some of them are going to say that.

Well, we won't get caught at it.

We only get blamed for things we don't do.

We don't usually get caught at the things we do.

I end up reading about things that have been involved and I never heard of it.

But your general feeling was that... That's true.

No, and even in the minds of people, even...

where people didn't get an impression of rather, they got a strong impression of you.

The reaction was universally good with an awful lot of people saying they thought it was your best time on it.

That we don't always get on Decor.

We got a very large number, especially among the political people, which I think is great because that kind of charges up our feelings.

Mm-hmm.

We also, Mr. President, have this little group, Accuracy and Media.

They're good.

They just, God, they raise hell.

And they know how to get publicity, and they've established a good network of people around the country.

We've got them in the ad class, right?

And Cliff Shields' group, the CBS affiliates.

Good.

They're raising a little hell.

Well, I have...

Of course, we made some pretty damn good points last night from the news, the heart and the egg campaign.

But the idea of what the peace trip was all about, and the idea about why the bombing was done, and how successful it was, and we're going to have another troop withdrawal.

It's played very heavily.

And I think the networks will play heavily tonight.

The wires today are running a very, very heavy excerpt from TV, and still running it today.

Wally Nears has done a political piece on it.

You made a lot of news.

It'll continue for two or three more years.

No, Radler is the curious one who, every time virtually we have a press conference, particularly on the news,

He always puts in the needle whether the president was angry or nervous or, you know what I mean, and, you know, goddamn, and there's nothing to it.

And, like, innocently, after the, he was the only one, you know, way off the edge in the AIDS order, he says, the president was glum.

very strong, et cetera, et cetera.

And of course, everybody else knew that it was a tremendous achievement.

But I didn't really believe, you see, I have not, I have not bought anything there.

He sucks up to people.

He's a clever snake.

But I believe that he is basically

extremely antagonistic in terms of trying every time to stick it in, and he only sucks up when he feels he has to for credibility.

You know, when I cracked him last time about this, I didn't want to get into it too hard, where I said, well, the crisis of correcting itself

He said, we always want to correct ourselves.

We try to be fair and all that sort of thing.

I said, well, I mean, that's your problem.

That's your credibility.

That's a bird in their ass.

Oh, sure.

He's the main hope on that.

Well, they won't correct anything.

And he, least of all, we've gone to him.

The one time we really had him was when he had that unemployment rate wrong.

Remember, he called it at 6%.

Right.

Unemployment, and he did it three times on network, twice on network news, once in the morning, twice in the evening.

And then when we really nailed him to the wall, then he went out in the morning on radio and corrected himself.

And he did correct himself, but of course he nowhere near balanced the damage he had done with three negative reports.

Sometimes I like to be on the press and just talk about the press.

Oh, God, that's the one thing I'd love to do.

Which I can do.

Oh.

I can do it very fairly, and the rest of the time, just tell them why they aren't, why they're prejudiced and so forth and so on.

He was afraid to get too much into the press with me, though.

He was, you know, he didn't, he didn't push me on that.

No, he didn't.

Because I was slow.

He's a, he's an interesting fellow, and I, I refuse to see him.

He's asked to see me.

I won't talk to him.

But he, he sucks around in,

In conversations with people here, he will say how really he wants to be fair, he really is objective, but then he goes on the air and just jacks it to us repeatedly.

He's the one guy I think who's, well, sure, he's the worst, but he doesn't get the exposure.

Sure, he doesn't.

Goddamn story with Conley.

Oh, that's an awful story.

Oh, God, it's totally awful.

Have you talked to Conley since then?

All of them talk.

total goddamn bunch of crap.

Mitch Nash.

Sure, Major?

I wouldn't put it past him, except I'm a little nervous that Conway doesn't go wandering off.

He's not?

Absolutely not.

That one statement he made when he came back from, when he left the Texas club, he said, I want to go out and

ride my horse in the prairies for a long ride and think about my own future.

I just got a little uneasy when he said that.

No, but that was in Paris, right?

I don't remember where, so it may have been.

Well, he's just such a great...

He's very nice, though.

Oh, God.

Must be entering Congress pressure.

Well, that's all I worry about, is that his old cronies are there.

Johnson, Harris, and the Bachelors are just out in the bush.

They have to be.

They don't know what to do.

Boy, one thing I'm glad to believe of Tom Radcliffe's doorstep, which is that rather insulting question on George Wallace, whether or not he was in Mexico, that's the problem with that.

You know, he had conveniently indicated he was going to the Democratic primary system.

I thought that was a good thing to do.

It was a good answer.

He came right back to you and tried to, fortunately, answer it.

Time magazine gave us a hell of a good build-up on the economy today, Mr. President.

Yes, this week.

Yes, sir.

It went out this morning.

Six-page article with a big headline that lasts a year of real recovery.

And it goes on to talk about the economic indicators.

Europe's predictions are being borne out.

And their board of economists have met again and now reaffirmed that next year will be a spectacular growth.

And the Christmas sales were a howling success.

They just detail all of the things we've been talking about.

About the most positive article in the economy, I think, I've read yet.

And as a matter of fact, they advertise it all over the country.

Liftoff, 1972, will be the year of real recovery, unanimous opinion of Time's Board of Accountants.

And this is going, they ran a full page over the major news, and the article itself is very, very soft.

In fact, all the year-end stuff has come through, the various, even the conference board, which has been the most

downbeat of oil is talking about 6% real growth rate this year.

Which, if it happens, will really, really eat into the unemployment rate.

We're unfortunate.

I'm unfortunate.

Both of them.

Even the militia.

Last year, Henry, last year, it was a good year.

It was moving up even before the new economic policy.

We forget, you know.

The GNP in the first quarter, the GNP in the second quarter, the third showed some lovely law, but it was given up.

I mean, it's all a question of psychology.

Yeah, you had the market and you had the consumerism.

attitudes just plunging and that was that was the kind of thing that happened there well the media were getting it so hard the media and the result that we went off and really kind of wanted to see the result the market was 50 percent above what it was we spent last year it's 100 points above what it was the whole this year now the market we'll see what happens going strong today it opened up the dodge center

Well, at 2 o'clock it was even, but it was about 5 points up this morning.

Good heavy volume.

And down, down to even at 2?

Yes, sir.

But it's... Well, it's not... Yeah, I'd be happy just to see it just leap along.

You can't just go up?

No, not when it's around 900.

You know, it's an interesting...

It's an interesting lesson on the economy.

We all forget around here how frantically we were fighting off the media reports night after night on television.

And we just thought about it a minute ago.

It was at least two and three times a week that we would get a devastating jab by one of them.

And that's what caused the public psychology to tailspin.

And then when you announced

the New Economic Program and took the issue away, they didn't have that to do anymore.

And they've really kind of stopped.

You get very little negative stuff now in the media or in the economy.

In fact, it's all coming through exceptionally strong.

But there's a lesson in taking the issue away from them.

Almost more important than taking it away from the Democrats is you take it away from the media.

They don't have anything to complain about because we've done

We've done so much, they can't follow this.

And they stopped paying attention to it, which is really what's happened.

In the last three months, we've had just a few negative reports on the economy.

And yet, when you think about it, the basic conditions aren't that different.

They had an issue.

They were riding, and they rode it.

Damned into the ground.

But that's really one great lesson out of that August announcement.

It stole that issue completely.

And the minute they stopped talking about it, it held up.

What's happened to the Public Attitude Assembly?

He won't let that issue die, Mr. President.

No.

Yes, now he dies.

You see, I didn't want him to die.

Oh my God, no.

Before that, if he does now, he's back with his boots on.

He's back with his boots on and he's kicked us again.

And he is going to get a sympathy reaction.

Every time he kicks us, he's going to revive the Miami story and give us a sympathy reaction.

And that's the thing we want to do.

If he had died a month after Miami, it would have been

it would have bounced back on us because we would have been blamed.

But it's interesting.

He is keeping the damn thing alive.

He just sent out his, I don't know if it was me, but he sent around a monthly Federationist, which was the April Seattle publication.

And he went out of his way to have pictures of him smiling and applauding while you were speaking.

He wrote a

long two-page statement about how he personally escorted you to the platform.

He thought he was going to escort you off.

But you got away from him and went down into the crowd.

He thought he was.

He didn't make any moves.

Well, he said he had planned to escort you back to your... You remember, I had your hands with him.

Oh, you grabbed his arm to shake hands.

Yeah.

He forgets that all of this was televised.

I had your hands, and I turned away and started to walk.

Christ, he didn't try to walk with me.

No.

He stayed right out of there.

And the more he... Television killed him.

Television killed him.

And the more... And even the written press did.

You know, you got a summary from Liv Klein of all the other girls.

Yeah.

And you sent me a note saying it looked more like they were classy, mean, and crazy than you occurred.

I went back to a lot of them, and the anti-meany stuff did outweigh the courage, but not by a heck of a lot.

An awful lot of these editorials...

that we went back and looked at were very positive, I hear.

I'm talking about your courage, telling it like it is, walking into the lion's den.

To Mr. Nixon's lasting credit, he admired the President's display of courage, and every time he raises that issue, it just comes right on back.

Well, I'll see you, Mr. Hedren.

I'm, I'm supposed to bring him in.

I think we've just got a, a session to take.

Yeah.

All you have to do is tell him you have to be, uh...

I'm gonna do the dad.

Well, and that you have his money.

That's all he cares about.

I have his money, but the government, yeah.

Yeah, we, we've got to have the money.

We've got to get him out there.

Well, it's a total waste of your time, I mean... Sure, he doesn't...

Thank you.

He doesn't deserve it.

No, he doesn't.

Goddamn, he should have done better.

What's that?

Well, he wants to resign and become a chairman of Park Cut and find a successor.

I don't think he's being paid.

I don't think he's been paid at all, from what I understand.

I know nothing about the National Assembly.

I just know something about it.

He waived his salary.

Yeah.

Because they didn't have any money.

I think that's right.

All right.

Everything just feels that you need a quick, quick bit of water.

Yes, sir.

3 o'clock.

Yes, sir.

I was, uh, I wanted to talk to you about another kind of report that came in regarding the, uh,

Connelly thing, you know.

Colson said he, he, he apparently, he was, was quoting that, uh, thing he brought me on the phone about the cops.

He wanted to go to Texas to ride his horse to Connelly.

He was reading the Paris Code thing.

He was in New Zealand a couple weeks ago.

And, uh, I said, oh, don't worry about it.

He said, Connelly's in good shape.

But anyway.

I just want to be sure you believe now that everybody around here is aware of his obligation to... Yeah, Peterson's president recognized Conley's high sensitivity and he touched base with him and called him and so forth.

Peterson, on his own, came in this morning to me and said, what was all that stuff?

He said, I can't believe that because when Conley came back from the Azores, he called me, asked me to come over to his apartment.

I went over and I said, I think it was Sunday afternoon or something, but I spent a couple hours with him at his request and he was...

just so upbeat.

When he got the agreement, he called on the phone from over there to say, you know, this is what we're doing and all this.

And he was told it was a great accomplishment.

He said it was a, you know, obviously the whole thing was a skillful maneuver because Connie did back off of his position, but he said his press was just superb on it.

Because it ended up, you know, with Connigan in credit for it all.

Just let me tell you, your assignment is to watch him.

Okay.

And Schultz was in the day, for example, on the CEA, and I said, I want a woman.

He said, well, Connigan, you know, all right.

I said, you call him.

I'm like, we have this woman.

But he is the man who's judging my wife.

You take her.

I mean, we just have a goddamn shirt.

It's such a valuable property that we cannot have any of the little boys around here.

I mean by our little boys, I don't mean people below the top people.

I don't think Schultz or Rutherford did any of these mistakes.

They must not be an appearance.

Nobody will make a mistake intentionally.

There is always the possibility that someone will forget

to check something with him or raise something with him that we should have had.

I just tried to rub the wrong notes on that to the point where nobody would even think of doing anything without talking to the company first.

That's the way it's got to be.

Do you want Price in California on the State of the Union at all?

He's got a draft in that you'll have on the plane.

Well, he could come out later in the week if he wanted to.

Yeah.

There's no reason to get out the next couple of days.

There's no reason.

I'd probably go out and talk to Henry a little about the drafts I've got to do on that.

Yeah.

Well.

See, there's a plane coming out Wednesday.

He could come out then.

Come out Wednesday, yeah.

If he wanted to work with one.

I don't know what the hell Brian's about to say to you.

It's happening for some time.

I'm trying to figure it out.

We're trying to figure it out.

Okay.

So is it Henry Ford?

Yes, sir.

I think what that mess out there must have been the television people.

Yes, sir, it was.

But they should always, you know, you never know when I'm going to be bringing somebody out.

The people should always keep that clean out there.

I should check, Mr. President.

You should check it.

God damn it, you're not the janitor.

But there are about, there must be 1,500 janitors in this White House.

I see them all in on the room.

Now, God damn it, they didn't keep that clean out there.

There were at least pinched cigarette butts.

And it was important to do it right out here.

Pinch a cigarette, at least pinch.

And, uh, and, uh, three paper cups.

And, uh...

and so forth, strewn out there.

It was a goddamned hog pen.

You could look down here and see it.

The press had seen it.

It was there when I came in in the morning.

I thought, well, I suppose they just didn't get around to cleaning it.

I went out of the trappers and they were still there.

But it is, you know what I mean, this goddamned staff is going to be shaken up again.

I mean the janitorial staff.

They are not to leave this place looking like a hog pen around here.

That's going to leave that place looking like a hog pen.

I think they usually have a cooling oven right after.

They come in at night and clean up the office.

Well, they should clean up in the morning.

They've got to remember I take people out.

I take them out to their cars.

I walk out.

It's not your job.

I just meant you get the janitorial staff.

Who was it, Stout?

Was that his job?

No, his.

It was PSA.

Yeah.

I'm sorry to interrupt, sir.

who do, normally, an outstanding job.

Boy, there's no excuse for that.

We all look at these clocks.

Okay, fine, fine, thank you.

I agree.

On the Japanese dinner Thursday night, Henry's gone up the wall.

We thought that he wouldn't be there.

He says, you don't understand that the Japanese consider him the second most important person in the entire world.

We could take a stab at asking Kennedy not to go to the dinner, even though he's there, on the basis of the ticklishness of the balance.

that they don't have any opposite number of fifths.

No, they don't.

Now, what they're suggesting, they've only got four principals and their fifth guy, whether our fifth were Henry or Kennedy, their fifth they would want to have is Ushiba.

And that poses a problem of having Meyer.

I will not have Meyer.

But Alex Johnson says that is not a problem, that Ushiba should come and that it's not a problem to leave Meyer out.

And, but that's still, we'd have to have.

You could get 12 in there, I suppose, couldn't you?

No.

Well, let me tell you, we won't decide until I get there.

I would think the thing with Goddamn Henry is that he is just childish about Boston.

And I cannot be on this one, because the point is that after he did the China trip and all, this guy thinks he's going to be in the 80s.

All right.

Listen, let me tell you why he did the China trip.

This is the reason.

He never fails to say that he doesn't have to be in one of these.

Huh?

I don't know.

So, but anyhow, it's one of those fetishes.

Okay.

I'm trying to work it out, but it seems to me that we'll take a little pause.

Just not.

So if you would, it's a better place to start.

Mr. President, how are you?

Happy New Year, see?

Happy New Year.

Congratulations on everything you're doing.

Happy New Year.

How are you?

Yeah, I do.

Isn't that awful?

I was down pretty near to this cane.

We have a house that holds sound.

So we fly in a lot.

Everybody's got to have a rentable asset.

That's right.

I want to tell you that I am certainly grateful for what you've done.

This operation, I know he's done all the work.

I know, I know.

He's done all the work.

I think it's very important.

I realize that it's

They're very spongy, hard to get into, hard to go up to grab.

That's why, and you get it particularly in the fundraising side, that's awfully hard.

That's, of course, the wheel, as you know.

So, under the certain chances, though, I think that we can.

I think we can.

When I wrote you the letter, you were in a little trouble.

I'll handle it.

Ted tells me that I was away a couple of weeks, and with his information, things look much better now.

I think I heard something.

Yes.

Best thing to carry.

So I understand it as of just recently, it would be $500,000 from action, and then a budgeted number of $1 million for fiscal 73.

Right.

i think with those two things the program now that's a million and a half you add it to what we have yeah well you do have to work in numbers that we we don't have to wait but it's um i still feel very strongly that we need a private sector more private sector back in order not just to become an arm of

government without any of the leverage of being inside.

in order to give it some standing as a volunteer activity rather than just as a government activity.

That's my feeling.

Well, we fully agree with you, Mr. President.

The point, however, is that it was very difficult to be able to get money out of the private sector because actually we didn't have a tangible...

a really good, tangible program for them to look at and get firmly interested in saying, well, this is something we believe in and this is something we'll give the money to now.

I think with what we've been talking about, what you're talking about,

Going further on this program, we may be able to get some more in 2020, but it's not going to be very easy.

I wouldn't want to have you think that it's going to be easy because, I don't know, you know, people have got so many applications.

There are so many institutions that are looking for funds for one reason or another.

You've just got to work hard at it, but it just isn't easy.

And we really haven't even had full payment on a lot of the pledges that we've been in for quite a period of time.

So at this point, when I wrote the letter of reserve in the 60s and 70s, and I felt that I should let you know about it.

You're a 10-9, 3-0.

When Henry, to pull that down to some numbers, Mr. President, when Henry recruited me,

We were about 400,000 behind on pledges, and we had recaptured just half of us.

So they're about 200,000 out.

And I think that one thing that can be done that would be appropriate and very, very helpful would be if your four or five top aides in the White House could be encouraged, whenever they have the opportunity, just to articulate your sense of priority to people who are strong supporters of yours and of this type of program.

There are a bunch of them, and that would include some of the people who are behind on pledges.

When they just happen to run into them, just say, I hope you're going to be able to pay that up, because that's the flow that's already there, and these people are just so petty.

And there may be others, as they would know.

That's sort of hard in a political year right now.

since you haven't declared on here.

It is, it's out of a different country.

Sure, they have foundations.

Foundations, corporate gifts, and it's deductible.

We have established that as of two weeks ago, finally got the IRS ruling that we're a public foundation.

So we took all that time to do it, because they're, you know, they had to rule on all of these things with the new tax law.

All right, let's not let that follow us on.

That'll help immensely.

That'll be done.

Now, what about the project?

I talked to Finch, and I asked him to work around that thing, and he came to.

Now, if you get one thing and put your teeth in it,

and go on and maybe we can solve it.

Yeah, I think we're looking very good.

I'm glad you didn't give us a chance to chat with you a month earlier.

We're going to look very good right now.

We set out by the end of the year.

That's when I talked to him about three weeks ago.

He said you were working on it.

Yeah.

What we aimed for was to get 100 local centers into place so we'd have a network for pushing programs.

So we've got 80 going, full force in effect.

You really have?

Going.

They are really there?

Yeah, since April.

So we know the program.

Oh, yeah.

Directors, boards, the whole lot.

Using volunteers.

Good.

And another 40 being formed.

So now we have a network.

With the money from action, we'll be able to sustain that and let the network grow.

So that's an important thing.

um my understanding is that you've agreed to come to the award center if you're free on the 10th that itself is very no no not if you want to change it but it's awfully close to one sir because well i just

uh... uh... uh...

No problem.

January, February the 10th.

We all call it a good idea.

Good, good.

That's better.

Thank you.

We all bring this house and coffee.

Very good coffee.

I take it back.

Thank you.

You could do it on another date.

Tell me, do you have any range of dates that you could do on that?

Well, we will surely rearrange it.

We need to... No, it's going to be on the top floor of the Kennedy Center.

Yes, the dinner would be big for the White House.

We would have our board meeting that afternoon, and they would come to the dinner, which would give you a chance to salute the board, as well as the volunteer award winners.

And we can surely push it off.

We didn't want to do it in the middle of China.

Yeah, yeah.

I wouldn't mind getting there.

Along with the rest of the press, huh?

Look, I'll work on this schedule, and I'll tell them all.

tomorrow.

We'll set a date in that ballpark between the 10th and the 16th.

Is that all right?

We have to leave in the 16th.

So we'll set a date in that.

But the 10th date is not a problem.

It has to be in Congress.

But I don't know about it.

well good stuff that's marvelous well now that seven itself will give us visibility since you're being here maybe we should get them uh on that occasion you get your top not just you get yesterday you'll probably go eight or ten wheels

I've got a little bit special treatment, you know, a little pop or something before.

That would be marvelous.

Just marvelous.

that you will work out something.

I'd like to add some people to it who haven't been part of the program and who would, I think, be able to back it.

Ways that won't be the mutual friend that you and I have, I know, would complement the other ones.

Then, secondly, with this government help, we will be in a position to run a national advertising program, and we have developed a scheme for it.

It's better than a half and up.

It's there, I'm going to be candid with you.

The reason I say that is that from this year's action appropriation and the million from next year's action in fiscal 73 is budgeted for next year.

If I could guess at the train of your thought, I might give you an idea or two.

the two programs that we're now mounting one to help the right to read people get off the ground which is a great program and it's one where people could really volunteer hell i thought here i really would if i did the class of patients you know the real problem is basically it's directly the blacks and to all those you know i have lord learning about me

whether by heredity or an act on earth.

And it's about, and it's directed also to an awful lot of people with language problems.

I mean, Mexicans and all the rest.

It's the most important program in the world.

I mean, we all know that reading is the most important subject, except for a businessman, I mean, for his rhythm ticket.

And how are you going to map out the new math that we're going to be able to read?

Exactly.

And then take them to a company to learn to read.

Well, we're moving to help people get going.

Right.

And we're moving on an aid to the elderly program that comes out of your White House conference.

Correct.

To help older people stay in their own homes.

How does that work?

The college kids will often be the volunteers.

That's what I mean.

To be the volunteers.

Through these local action centers.

Where they could help them write and read.

They could help them visit these older people and so forth and so on.

They're going to be there for them.

Well, now, the reason I brought them up is when you asked if a million and a half was enough, doing either each of those programs will cost us more than $100,000, just the staff at the time had to put into it.

An ATW grant or contract to pick up our tab on that would release some overheads for us in a really crucial way.

And it's a little unfair to Elliot and his associates to, you know, come to the president's desk for this, but this is something that Ray Hensley and Bob Finch and I have talked about, and we are going to approach them.

Yeah, let me ask you, let me take it out of the way so you aren't blowing up our hearts.

Let's try it.

Talk to the security team.

No.

Yes, yes, yes.

It did not languid.

And because of my interest in the thing, that amount of money can easily be picked up.

That band agency has too much anyway.

I mean, they've got all their wasted money.

That's a hell of a lot of money.

That's wasted years, and it's going to be wasted.

But you check it out.

Now, I'm just going to write to them and say, now, this is something that I want to explore.

And also, look at the action budget.

The action thing is much to be desired at the moment.

It has very, very minimal congressional support.

And I need to ensure that it's not.

We need to know what you really need, what you can spend.

And also, yours has got to work, too.

Of course, of course it does.

But we must not allow those two programs on any of the other, any of the other right to read, they must be properly funded.

Now, what did you say, $100,000 each?

Actually, the one we find, too, is $114,000.

All right.

Well, the hell with it.

$150,000, what's the other cost?

I'd say we have $250,000 for the two programs.

Could you do it?

Get them off the ground.

Is that very strong enough?

Do you really believe that will do?

In addition to what we already have budgeted, you need $250,000 for those two programs.

For those two programs.

They're both, you would expect to get that from ATW, correct?

I would think so.

Now, when I say that, I'm talking about a one-year budget, and I suppose...

It's a good man.

A good man.

Solidly behind this book.

He's a good man.

He's behind it.

Just tell him that it's just a personal fetish of me, and also it happens to be a personal fetish of my wife, who's in the right to read up her ears and really wants to do something.

Just say, look, Kelly, for God's sake, find it out of that $80 million budget of yours, most of which is uncontrollable.

All right, that's done.

This next one's very good.

organization quickly as I said in my letter I thought I ought to resign as of about the 1st of February from the chairmanship because I've had it about 18 months or thereabouts

and i've got some other things that i've got to get into and uh so i thought ted and i've talked about he's talked to your people here in the white house and i know

He'd be an excellent chairman, and we've got to find a president.

We've been working with Mr. Malik on some possible people, and hopefully you might have somebody maybe by the middle of February or something.

That's the thought, to secure the continuity in the program.

Yes, sir.

But we really need continuity on the officership part.

There's no question about that.

I think if you don't have it, things, you know, it takes a while to find a track or somebody's got a different.

I think you should know that I agree to take this on part-time originally.

Yeah, yeah.

And it needs a full-time president in the worst way.

Well, I think that's a good scheme.

You're the chairman.

You'll come into the hall.

Yes, sir.

I will.

All right.

Okay.

And you?

I'll be the chairman.

I've got to go out there and earn some money someplace, too, but I'll pay attention.

All right.

But then the other thing is, then we try to find the president.

Yes.

And he must be a full-time president.

And he should be paid, right?

Yes, absolutely.

But Ted's been working full-time.

I know.

And he's done a wonderful job with this thing.

Yeah.

I think it's really starting to move now that we've got the help that you've given us with these.

Malik is a first class man.

He is by far the best man in personnel that's ever been in this White House.

I mean, I don't doubt that's what's going on in their back, because he always shoots at the top.

He gets people, people that are his enemies.

I mean, you know, Henry, we got Bill Everett, he could be the trade record.

It's all speaking.

Wow, see, job, job.

Bill Everett, as you know, is one of the great, bright, yeah, one of the bright young guys, you know, as the chief executive officer of Boise Cascade, and then he came on to New York sometimes, I think.

representative comes and does a trade representative.

That's a hell of a thing, isn't it?

You've got some great people.

Pete Peterson.

Everybody supported me for the United States Senate, too, so I suppose you told me I ought to be your trade representative.

He is a wonderful

But he's doing a good job.

But that's the amount of touch.

So many people with personnel usually say, you can't get this, you can't get that, this, that, and that.

And they do a little look in order for whoever you can get.

And Mallory always says, try it for the best.

And they go down.

And he does a terrific job of solving it.

I don't know how he does it.

And he's terrific with men, too.

He's put more good women in positions.

We're even considering a woman who's a Jew.

For the first time in history, that is one of the members of the Council of Economic Advisers.

Oh, really?

You see, we've got her signed as first to last.

We've got Edgar Solomon, who's a great international expert.

Of course, McCracken signed back in the 60s.

Now, if we could get a woman in there, she's a tremendous woman economist.

That's a real break.

Well, that'd be terrific.

It proves, don't you agree?

Absolutely.

It proves as to if a woman has it.

I believe women have other uses than government at times, but if they want to be in it, they ought to be able to go to the top.

I think that's terrific.

So, hope we find her.

Good for you.

Well, anyway, thank you very much.

We appreciate your time.

Congratulations on a great international concert.

Well, it was a great thing to ask back.

Our friend Tom did a tremendous job.

He was strong.

Here's the man who spoke about some of those things.

You know where he is?

I'm sorry, but I'm sure he is.

Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Well, thank you.

Thank you for this time.

Thank you.

I'll see you on the 10th or 14th, like wherever it is.

Thank you.

Well, thank you very much.

Oh, we've got an actor.

Thanks a lot.

Good to see you.

Good to see you, Mr. President.

Happy to see you.

I have taken the meeting to San Francisco to speak to the council, so that's why I'm here.

The first major issue legislation.

You'll want to remember, which I'm sure you do, that if we can handle our oil price legislation, we can keep it in the Banking Committee's frame of works, which is not very protectionist.

If we start adding things to it, like the generalist preferences, or anything of that sort, and move it in ways that need us to send it to Nancy, then you've got it.

It's got to be certain.

So the generalist gave me a notice, let's go between.

When Volcker, I think, believes that it ought to be submitted to

It's very shortly after the Congress gets back.

The argument on the other side of doing it immediately is that they'll have all these meetings with the community or not until they don't start until the 14th of January.

You know how important it is on agriculture to get some trade stuff in the package.

And my own view on this is... What does Connolly feel on that?

Does he feel we should delay?

He's always said we can't get the price to go unless we get the trade.

Unless we get the trade.

Well, he knows how different he says that.

Right.

My guess is, and I haven't talked to John after the meeting today, but John's position would be we've got to get something on the agriculture side, just politically, and that means we wait a couple of weeks.

We ought to wait for it.

But there is this other point of view that we've got to capture them all now and get in there right after Congress comes back.

But a few weeks might buy a fair amount of time.

Are we going to get to anything?

I don't know.

Well, we've got a better deal on citrus than we had before.

We've got already a long list around tobacco.

The cry-hard crunch, which is for the Midwestern states, is on hearings and that's the thing that's going to take everybody's working, and he's working hard on that.

Well, maybe it's better to keep the heat on.

Well, that would have been my view.

The only difficulty that I see with that is I don't want to create another international crisis.

That's absolutely fair to say.

Congress will not act, you know, because it isn't going to happen.

The other thing we can do is orchestrate the committees you see have got pressure on for trade items too.

Let's see, let's see how we can get there.

First of all, you buy a little time.

You don't, I wouldn't put it in the week of the evening in any event.

That's our excuse to say, well, we're going to have, I'd say the union is going to be the 20th.

And so that gets you through that week, and that brings you over to the 24th.

And so about the 24th, they have to put up a bill, and then they've got to have hearings, and they've got to have debate, and debate, and so forth and so on.

I think maybe the thing to do is to filibuster rather than to delay putting it in.

I think that's the thing.

What I would like to do, I'm going to see Congress in California, but in the meantime, you call that back to this meeting.

That's sort of my feeling as to what we ought to do, but I'd like to know what his strategy is.

My thing would be, Monday well, we'll take their input too.

You see what I mean?

I think we can filibuster and get them to accomplish what we want to accomplish.

But you call him a building manufacturer, if you will, if you like what I ask.

On trade legislation, that's what we're on, the gold price.

Virtually everybody feels we have to wait until later, April, May, June, May.

The reasons are it's false.

I'm going to talk about the reasons we've talked about and the reasons we've not talked about.

The reasons we've talked about.

You've got an OECD trade group, you know, reports in May of a lot of line areas of negotiation.

You can make a line out of employment here, as we used to say.

Congress wants to be consulted, you know, on the kind of authority you should put in.

Everything's in that way.

And you say there are things going on now that will determine the outcome of the negotiating authority you want, and you're waiting for the actuals of this to be provided by your city.

All right.

Secondly, you have a little time to discuss the effects of this exchange rate and some of this trade stuff.

Now, normally, that takes a couple of years, but you can use that as a little pinnacle.

Third, you've got priorities you want to remember.

You've got revenue sharing.

You've got pension money.

You've got health budgets.

You don't want to get this in our head.

Excellent.

Now, all ways and means.

All ways and means.

I'll set them next.

Now, there's some gutsy political reasons you may want to remember.

First, keep in mind that Wilbur has got this fellow Burke on his committee.

Burke is the author of the Harty-Burke bill, which is this awful labor bill.

Burke is either Wilbur's campaign manager or his finance manager.

Now, I don't know that you're going to accept, I'm sounding cynical, but I know that you're going to accept this.

I hear you.

No, I don't know what needs to happen.

There's a beautiful mousetrap opportunity here, and once you're over it, it goes to the laborers.

Well, let me tell you what I think.

There is a chance of a snowball in Hamilton Road, if I'm right, for any great legislation this session.

There isn't because they're going to foul the damn stuff up with all sorts of protections or vices.

So what I want to do, though, and this is an area where you've got to play, you, you, I'm speaking to you first, you've got to play up.

Well, I think what we really have to do is speak to different voices.

Maybe we'll have rockets, and the beasts are out there eating the ground up, or there's a better trade line than any.

But you, you see, speaking for the business community, you've got to serve before it, but also in the same hand.

On the other side, you've got to be on the other side, too.

And then, of course, you've got a colleague over here who's a goddamn tough on the trade thing.

He wonders about it.

Now, that's the political opinion that I see.

I think what has to happen is that, and I can say that, all I can say is to say the pious thing, the loneliest thing that I will say once you're on the floor, but it's a congressional problem.

But I think as far as the public statements, you, Rogers, and Collins, and of course, then Stein, the counsel, you treat particularly

sort of work out a little scheme where you just confuse the hell out of the arm, but recognize nothing can or must happen this year.

It really can't.

Or you agree with that.

It'd be a nightmare.

If we were to get Nostra from a lot of September up to October.

But I do think, on the other hand, it would be very good for us for our credibility in Europe and the rest, and also for our credibility here at home that we're not a bunch of man-protectionists.

And also, I believe that in the law I don't.

I just don't believe that in the Charter.

He has gone out on a psychological limb here with these generalized preferences.

After you had your discussion on the airplane, he apparently got off of your plane and promised in January to submit it in January.

The problem with that, of course,

is that it gets us into this Christmas Street approach, and I've been trying to figure out how to get him off the hook.

Well, in the meeting this morning, we got the conversation worked around how, obviously, and Bill agreed to this, we would want to consult with Congress, you know, on this matter.

Now, I think we could use Clark in a very useful way.

Clark, McGregor, Bill, Captain Spector, Clark.

They all said it.

Visualize a scenario where we send Clark up there,

You and I give Clark some, shall we say, instructions on the answer that we want coming back.

Clark goes over and reports to Bill that there's some pretty high risks, you know, in submitting just piecemeal legislation.

Bill then can get off the hook, in effect, by saying to his foreign policy people that, you know, the Congressional requirement is not, is not... Well, the high risks are, if you put it in generalized preference, we're going to get quarters of the other people out of Texas.

He still knows this.

I think he does.

On the public record, we've got a lot of good play out here.

I think we've got several final requests.

I saw the Times that hold that whole column, even when we have the volume.

And there's a whole page inside you can see the charts and everything.

Now, this is the kind of thing I'd be wanting to do.

Let's you take the Hydros and the State of the Union, New America, and all this sort of thing.

And then let some of the rest of us carry this message out to Congress and business and so forth.

And use this year as a year of education.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You would not have me talking about that.

In the state of the Union, I think you can take the high road.

You want a confident American.

You want an employed American.

You want a competitive American.

You want this new American.

We've talked about how that relates to... You're not going to California.

I thought you were, but...

But you didn't go to Japan, did you?

You were over there.

Now, I asked... Everly is the one I think has to be there.

Tanaka.

And Stan really is awesome.

Yeah, they're good.

Yeah, you're the captain.

I would think it might be a good idea if this is still a game plan to get him out of here in good style in a place where he's going to be away from Jackie Anderson and some of these friends that have gotten to him.

There's one particular chief petty officer who he served with who has loaned him $1,000 in the past and seems to have a pretty good hold on this fellow.

He's the one that's

telling him not to worry because he's got the upper hand with all the information he has about the Joint Chiefs of Staff participating in this.

So, I think that's what ought to be done with it.

So that's my recommendation.

I guess John was talking about it.

It is.

I would just like to get a hold of this Anderson and hang him.

God damn it, yes.

Well, listen, the day after the election, win or lose, you've got to do something with the son of a bitch, don't you?

I would.

I did, sure.

Statute of limitation won't have run, will it?

It won't have run at all.

He's guilty to sell, isn't he?

No question about it, as much as admitting the possession and publication.

You really deal with the bust of John Cheese too badly.

I do, yes.

There's one other factor I guess you're aware of, and that is that the Times has got an investigative reporting team that work on where Anderson got this stuff.

That's one of the

I don't believe so.

I don't believe that Anderson will disclose his stories.

You see, what has happened from the ministerial point of view is that the office that he was working in has been closed.

And so he's just reassigned to another duty.

I don't know how Anderson could get at this without disclosing that he's his source.

He thinks he has the upper hand with their embassy company.

Well, what he's talking about is busting loose the two admirals who were sitting over there with him, taking this material out of channels, taking the material that didn't belong in the communication channels of the Joint Chiefs and turning it over to them.

The office, of course, is already closed.

So I don't know if we have any other options.

All right.

I think we've got to do it.

Well, Larry will be back to John with his plan.

And as I say, I don't think it should be punitive.

Mr. Dagger, I had to sign something here.

It reminded me of a program.

Everly is a goddamn impressive fellow.

I watched him on two meetings.

The crazy thing is, by God, he's more buttoned down than Peterson.

And just as articulate.

And he's really a hell of a fellow.

I would agree with it.

And tough.

He's a tough guy.

I mean, he looks sort of like a smiley type.

There's a lot more to that man than I realize.

I'm not insulting about it.

You agree?

Yes, sir.

From everything I know of him.

I don't know him too well.

Well, you've got real property, man.

Just put that in the back of your mind.

Yeah.

There's a lot of pawns to move around.

Oh, one... Well, the thing to do is first all to watch for the men that really have the difference.

Help.

Because, you know, when you look around for people, you're in a position to find them.

And you want to see them under combat conditions, which makes a hell of a lot of difference in some reputation they've brought from some other place.

That's what makes the difference.

Just an aside on this John Connolly business.

There has been quite a campaign that might have been calling your attention to really put a ship in John Connolly.

I saw, not a ship, but I saw that goddamn shore city have a big fight with the White House.

It didn't like the age or its agreement.

That is pure bullshit.

That part of it, I know.

Well, it's all pure bullshit, but they've been... Who's behind the campaign?

Preston Smith, and he's using Roy Cohen in New York.

I talked to John about it again today.

What I did was have the law firm get out of that lawsuit down in Texas.

So that there's no handle upon which these people can start these crimes.

So that when I wait, when you, we're going to be talking about another thing is Preston Smith is behind this business that Connolly is

No, no, I was talking about the...

There's been the Gallagher's Letter in New York, and there's been dope stories, you know, in some of the columns that we were out to get Conley, and it was being done through the law firm.

Oh, yeah, that.

Yeah, I saw that.

But there's no... Incidentally, I caught it when I was in California on a trip.

I just wanted to mention one thing to you.

Manolo gone.

I was going to say that Frannigan, or I guess you or somebody, has reported that Fred Eaton

Now once, we'll take the job.

Well, I just wanted you to know that my view is, for reasons that have nothing to do with the conflict, that he is, I don't, I agree with you, you know what I mean.

On the other hand, on the other hand, I think that it's gotta be handled very discreetly, and I hope that you would, that you've made the check, and that we'll, you figure there's just gonna be a hell of a fight, and you think we better not do it.

How do you think we can do it?

Because I can easily see, maybe you don't, I can easily see that he's just the man for the job, the age and everything else.

Yeah, he checked it out.

And I don't know what happened.

It is that he decided that all of a sudden he's convinced he wants to take it.

He went on the mountaintop, thought it would be a great idea.

But my God, initially, it isn't really quite that...

Just because there would be a hell of a fight.

I mean, yeah.

And we just think that it would be, we just decided the fight's gonna be too rough and that we need somebody there now and so forth.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That's right, that's right, that's right.

And also that there are very important things going on right now, and that we need them right now.

Yeah?

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

You can say that immediately afterwards.

But I think that we have no problem at all.

And that I think that I would like to think that also, because after that, we would hope to have a mandate.

But that we wouldn't have these fights.

These fights always prepare for the current election year.

And we talk.

You don't want to reveal the source.

But we talk to the people we have utter confidence in.

And it's that.

Yes, he's a good man.

Another one that occurred to me was the Peterson that did the trade thing.

Oh, the UN.

Oh, I had forgotten that.

I had forgotten that.

And you're sold.

The difficulty is he's not the strongest man.

He's a good man, because his father was a strong man.

He's a hell of a father.

And this guy's a sweet guy, a really wonderful guy.

Yeah, I'm not, and I just got a, I just like a little feel, I don't know, I think Pete Odomchenko with a few tough Illinois types to see how great, how tough he really is.

And there was one other that, did Pete mention you?

I mentioned another name.

Jewel?

I forget, I forget.

Well, Hanger Saul, I tell you, take a look at Hanger Saul, if you do that, because we could consider him something else.

He is a very good friend of mine.

He's a hell of a fall.

Now, another one of ours who would be great is Galvin.

The difficulty is that I think that John Mitchell's sitting right here, I think we want to keep him in Illinois.

John, isn't that correct?

Yes.

How about, let me ask John, you know Hanger Saul?

Yeah.

Could he do Japan?

I think so.

John thinks Peter's all he can do, Japan.

Let me just put it this way.

You get a hold of Pete.

Anthony will say, bring him in.

And you look him over.

If you think he can do it, let's go with him.

Fair enough.

Because he's a, well, God, let me see what kind of a company does he have.

Who's that?

What was the problem?

There's no conflict of interest, and they probably don't do, I hope not, much business.

It's a good company, though.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, that'll be fine.

Fine, fine.

Thank you.

But promise him something afterwards.

Tell him that I would very much like for him to consider a post afterwards.

He'd be good for NATO, or something like that, or something else.

He didn't press me very well on that.

Did you see him?

Well, he's smart-faced, and frankly, I think it's his best days.

It's just between us.

Those are my reasons.

And Bill Reed, which is Bill that I can never do either.

Yeah, well, Freddie was pretty well on here.

Yeah.

Well, Morton worked on it pretty good.

I know he got into it.

He got part of it.

I'd like to have a man, well I know you're sober, he's a good friend, but you sure Martin won't take it off?

No, he's working here at home.

Okay.

except for our old problem with the governor and Elliot Richardson.

And I don't want to bore you with all of it again, but John Ehrlichman decided that I'd better try and broker this, so I've been back and forth with Richardson and Reagan today.

Richardson's getting a little persnickety about it, talking about his prerogatives under the statutes.

and how if it were known that he was directed to do this, thus must so happen.

I would very much like for him to consider a post-match.

He'd be good for Taylor or something like that.

Or something else.

He didn't impress me very well on that.

Did you see him?

Well, he's smart-faced.

And frankly, I think it's his best days.

It's just between us.

Those are my reasons.

And Bill agreed.

I can never believe you didn't know who the hell he was.

Yeah, well, Freddie was pretty well on my ears.

But he's 66.

He was a baby.

He looked 76.

And I just thought, well, I'm going to this case.

I don't know what that is.

Also, he does have an almost impossible contract with every representative.

A number of firms, Japanese firms, American firms, and all the hell of a great number.

Well, Martin worked on it pretty good.

I know he got into it.

God, we've got Martin.

Damn, I wish Martin had taken it.

You just, you sure... Well, I'm positive.

I'm positive.

God, he'd be the best.

Because I like Martin so much.

I'd like to have a man.

Well, I know you're sober.

He's a good friend.

But, uh, you sure Martin won't take it off?

No, he's working here at home.

Okay.

Sure.

except for our old problem with the governor and Elliot Richardson.

And I don't want to bore you with all of it again, but John Ehrlichman decided that I'd better try and broker this.

So I've been back and forth with Richardson and Reagan today.

Richardson's getting a little persnickety about it, talking about his prerogative of the statutes.

and how if it were known that he was directed to do this, thus and thus and so would happen.

So I will continue to try and work this thing out.

Their differences are not far apart, and I think Richardson has just got to give on this, and it can be structured that way, and I'm going to switch with him.

That's right.

Just say the stakes are too high, and by God, he's got to give.

I gave him...

Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid.

Yeah, 31 days.

I told, I just told Shultz to call him.

I told him that I knew what Richardson wanted, so we gave him that.

But God damn it, he's got to make the deal with Reagan and get off and just do it.

That's all we've got.

To say we've got a hell of a problem out there, but he's, and I can put it in this way, I can say, oh yeah, let me talk some coal politics with you.

We've got these right-wing coups in Asheboro.

out there.

That's what I've been doing.

This thing, and you'll learn, the highest authority, unimpeachable sources, that Reagan, they jumped traces.

You know, they said, you might want to use this.

Not to jump, you wouldn't come out.

But he just dragged his feet, and it could have a devastating effect.

He was all set to hold a press conference today to blast the hell out of the administration until I bumped into him.

I bet he got lunch in there and got him off the wicket.

Great.

Yeah.

On the welfare.

Yeah.

No, not the welfare.

All the welfare.

Yeah.

Not that welfare.

This is his hang-up.

He just got to get rid of the subject.

Okay.

Done.

All right.

But there may be some plaque come back out of region.

It's got to be done because just say that, Elliot, we need this thing that leads to crisis, and I hate to do it, but Jesus just do it and do it as low-key as possible and get it done.

That's all there is to it.

and all the rest of it.

Boy, we've also got an election to win.

Well, he should understand that, but he's good.

pushed by Reagan so that he's got his dander up in it.

Reagan, of course, is a mainland bastard on this, too.

He's mean and also selfish.

Huh?

Selfish, just like he was in the OEO legal service.

He's mean and selfish, single-minded, and frankly, you talk to him, he doesn't give one goddamn thing.

He doesn't.

And he's bad.

And he doesn't tell you how you feel about him.

And boy, there'll be a time when you won't have to deal with him, I hope.

I would hope that that would... No, really, I mean, I don't think he's... You've got to save a Rockefeller.

He fights like a son of a bitch.

But Rockefeller eventually makes a deal, doesn't he?

He's reasonable.

I've been helping him in the last two days to put one together, and I think we have.

We're getting the conservatives to support Nelson Rockefeller's tax package, and you don't think that's been quite a job.

I think it should be put together.

Is Ray Christon going to stay here?

Is he going out with him?

He'll be here for now.

Well, because he's working on it.

He may be coming out on Wednesday or something.

He'll be here for the rest of the day.

We should have those drafts later today or the first thing in the morning.

He's working on it with his group.

As John Connolly has thoroughly invented, we're supporting him on that damn thing.

Yes.

Now, all the way, golly, I'm crushing the saints of Crook.

And he's got some of the worst possible crooked investigators trying to dig up the stories and sell them.

Well, they even sent one of them out to see the Los Angeles Times, but apparently they didn't print any of it.

Why do you call him that son of a bitch?

Well, he's the one that's putting it out all over the dope sheets.

Well, let's just make the politics stop going.

Very sure, and he'll do.

Preston Smith, I'm sure, feels that if he can destroy John Connolly, he can destroy Barnes.

That's the gambit.

Oh, God.

But John, who was out playing golf in El Dorado, didn't seem to be worried about it at all.

How did he sound to you today?

I never got it.

He just said, oh, hell, let them dig.

They can go all over any place.

And he said, I've got nothing to hide sort of approach to it.

I hope that's so.

Well, anyway, if they come out with grace and truth, that's what you ought to do.

Well, the fact that the law firm has dropped that litigation ban there removes the real case for tying in

the Attorney General and the President and so forth to go around the back door trying to smite Conley.

And so they'll have to be doing it on their own now without a lot of guys.

Separacy is going to be there, as I understand now.

In California?

Yes.

Goddamn, they set it up there today, and everybody's there because Tanaka's going to be there.

And he's the trade representative.

No sir, Stans is there because Tanaka's there.

Well, Sands isn't supposed to be there.

Well, Henry said, you know, he doesn't know his ass first base about the trade negotiations.

The guy that's negotiating the trade is not Sands, who, you know, basically he's a wonderful man, but cannot negotiate on trade.

You know, he screwed it up twice.

Everly is the one that they're negotiating with in the trade box.

So he's got to be there negotiating.

We can't have him to dinner.

So I don't know.

We'll never be able to knock Sands out.

They've already told him he's in.

Oh, well, we can't hurt Sands.

He wants us to have everybody sit in, too, but have Sands at the dinner.

Sands doesn't come to the dinner, but I don't know where in the hell you're going to put... Because Tanaka comes to the dinner.

Well, Henry went back and forth on it and came up with Sands as the guy that should be there, not Everly.

Tanaka is the cabinet minister.

Well, of course, of course, of course.

Well, Everly isn't going to be with Sands.

He's going to have Tanaka there.

And then you've got to find a place for Kennedy there, too.

You cannot have him not there.

But if you can, I think maybe we can.

That's what we've got to try.

I heard it'd be pretty hard, Ken.

I heard it for Christ's sake.

I said it would be hard.

Well, let's...

Anyway, we can skip... Go ahead.

Skip the dinner.

No, no, no.

Skip one.

There's two of them.

Go ahead.

In Indiana, I think the deal is made where Mr. Schneider is coming out, if we can find him a job, and I will get at Malik in connection with that.

I have a job.

Is he a lawyer?

No, I don't believe he is.

He's a pretty capable follower.

I think John Snyder would be a pretty good bureaucrat if you put him in some place after all he was State Treasurer for years.

Right.

Pretty good follower.

We can work it out.

Should have had him.

Probably would have been a better candidate than the other ones.

He would be Deputy Secretary of Defense.

We don't have one of those, right?

All right.

I'm not serious, John.

He's the Deputy Secretary of Defense.

Undersecretary of Defense.

What's the name of this fellow that the conservatives have been pushing from Texas?

Is it Clements?

Clements.

Bill Clements.

Somebody looked at him.

He'd have all the usual problems.

Made problems.

He has money.

Anybody with money or confidence would qualify for that job.

Unless he wants to do well for a factory that had more money than Clinton.

Pretty hard to give up everything the last year.

For a year, yeah.

He might do it.

Maybe it must be pushing Seaman.

I don't know.

Kind of off the scene.

Well, I think Seaman will again corrode our conservative support.

He's one of the wizards, isn't he?

Well, he was there long enough to be one of them.

Well, yes, he's part of that establishment of intellectual, much-aided masters.

He was massive.

Well, I know, but he's still the same kind.

He says, yeah, I can imagine.

You've seen him around, haven't you?

Yeah, he's not one of our type of persons.

That's why I wanted that job.

Well, the last analysis was conservative.

the wing, you get down to defense and welfare.

And the defense spot over there is quite important, because somebody's going to find out that we haven't been expending money at the rate of our authorizations in the national security interest.

And this is going to cause some problems.

So he came up with the wild card.

How would you like to put Barry Goldwater in there and make him secretary?

later next year.

Well, God knows you can't control Perry Kilgore.

Yeah.

It'd scare the hell out of people.

It'd be a deal.

If it were John Power, I'd say yes.

But you can't.

Well, that's an administrative post to Kilgore.

Well, in addition to that, of course, they've got that legislation up there, which apparently is going to pass, where they split up that undersecretary's job.

That's right.

And you have the problem with the water problem, but you have to get a special act to do it.

What about George Bush?

He'd be damn good.

He's that good.

He's loyal.

The U.N. is a pain in the ass anyway.

He likes it and does it well, but I don't think he'd want the defense.

I don't think he'd take it.

He'd take it if he thought he was going to do something else later.

So the U.N. job has a hell of a lot more.

It isn't as important, but it has more prestige.

Do you run Peter Flanagan by the present?

Is that your production?

Fine, if you get it confirmed.

Do you think we could?

Or do you think Pete thinks we could?

Pete thinks we could.

I don't know.

I haven't taken a reading on it.

Pete says that he's now dealing with all these people on the Hill, and they just love him to death and all that.

He's probably not there with Tidings.

Tidings is gone.

Pete sold his vessel, so...

Well, he'd be a goddamn good man.

Total loyalist.

And he wants the job.

Try it.

He'd lose it here.

I know, but we could, we can lose it here.

Well, for that job, for that job, I could lose it.

Peter's argument is that hell, all of my legislative programs have been put together.

But his new thing would be the Peterson job.

Well, I hope that, thanks.

Well, that's got to be downgraded, doesn't it?

Sure.

Weren't you going to downgrade that?

Yeah.

In the past, it's a fairly good job, or either that.

What really ought to happen is you ought to have Peterson continue to be active over his commerce.

I wish we had the promising commerce.

I'd give it to Helen Benedict and a woman in the cabin.

That's what she wants to see me about, huh?

Gee, that's a toughie.

Did you ever hear that woman swear?

No question about it.

What's this?

You didn't see that?

Martha is moving into the, did they get this list of the Gallup, the 10 most admired women in the country?

Martha's now number eight in the world.

When did this come out?

A couple of days ago.

Did this come out?

Yeah, it came out Friday.

It's been printed in magazines this week.

Oh, is it?

No, that's true.

Yeah.

Go all the colors.

She replaced Ethel Kennedy.

Ethel dropped out the list and Martha Mitchell came on down.

That will make her doubly happy.

Doubly difficult.

That's right.

Well, anyway, right ahead of Shirley Chisholm.

Shirley Chisholm's number 10.

I'm glad she's ahead of Shirley Chisholm, because last year when they took all the pictures to put her on the front page of Life or Time or some such thing, and then Angela Davis bumped her, I thought she was going to tear the magazine apart.

Well, I wonder if you're serious about Peter Flanagan, that that shouldn't be checked out.

Why don't we check it out?

The confirmation aspect of it.

Check it with Laird?

Sam?

I think Peter can handle that job, and I think he'd be a good guy over there both.

for this crunched year to look after the store and look after the secretary.

Look after the secretary.

And also, he'd be one hell of a good buy if a guy in Henry's Watson meetings, you know, where Andy, you know, has all these, you know, manipulates.

And Henry needs somebody to watch him in there.

He really does.

He'll stand up for him.

And Pete would, wouldn't he?

Well, what good is it to stand up to Henry in a Western game?

Spatter over the wall.

He ends the meeting with what he sends up to him.

Because he ends the meeting, yeah.

But Henry, Pete would be good with it, dealing with it, outside, outside.

I would think that that aspect of it would be good, because it'll...

Listen, Pete would be good, just try it.

Yeah.

I agree perfectly well with him.

But I just don't feel we want a hell of a confirmation.

A little one I don't want.

Not at all.

You can't tell what they might find that they'd like to take him on.

I don't think there's tidings tanking him.

And as I just said to John, we really missed a bet on Eric that we met in that stinking trade shop, although that's important here as well, but he's a first-class property.

Malak is a genius at finding people.

He doesn't take that damn job.

Alex does a hell of a job.

He's getting good people.

Well, everybody's out of his mind to take that same job.

It's a lousy job.

He's taking it.

He's doing it.

He's just terrific.

He could move into the theater sometime.

Yes, he's that good.

Oh, perfect.

Perfect.

you would be perfect for it, and then leave, and then I wouldn't still continue to be done.

Well, there's one thing we argue about, but it ought to be on one guy, and there probably shouldn't be any, because he hasn't testified, but he was working with that, so he could testify to the charity director, and not testify to the assistant director.

Oh, well, anyway, the special care director's not a big deal.

He can start a supervisor, or some other jackass, or whatever.

That's, so that's a terrible thing to do, so let's go.

I mean, plans will go, John.

Well, it's the best I've thought of.

And go to McGregor right away and say, now, we need to try to stop him.

He's the man I want.

I don't believe he ought to take it up with him at this point.

Don't you agree?

How does Flanagan and Kistier get along over here?

It depends.

I don't think they've ever had to go.

They haven't had any problems.

They don't really deal with each other.

I think he's important.

And then before Peter or other things, like he was sworn for the same job.

He's the man you can trust.

And Henry figures that he can handle it.

He knows he can trust Peter and would figure he can handle it.

That's right.

Okay, done.

Sure, he's right.

He's not right.

He's not right at all.

Kissinger may be able to handle Blanton.

That's why it is.

The reason we need Blanton there is he's abrasive and tough, and that's the kind of a man Henry needs around him now.

He really does need somebody that just won't roll over and play dead.

I'd like to take a couple of minutes on this unhappy subject of Dr. Kissinger.

I had breakfast with him this morning.

This was approached on a political basis.

This is the new approach.

The Kissinger-Rogers business.

The State Department.

In the past, Mr. President, I haven't been really as concerned about it as I really am now.

Incidentally, when I had that, when Jerry Smith came in to go off to his stand at the Epstein, I told Rodgers to come over, too, because I thought he was going to be here.

And he violently objected.

He said, well, Rodgers is trying to take credit for solving it.

That's, that's, that's, that's their role, really.

Rogers had Peter, he asked Peter, you've got to goddamn well at least know what I'm telling Smith, because Smith's going to go right back over and tell him what he may have told him wrong.

But anyway, so, that was right after you had breakfast?

That's correct, and he was, I heard, but, and he makes the point, which is valid.

to be addressed, and he uses again the illustration of the Pakistan-Indian situation, where you had one program that came out of the White House, as he claims, Rogers and Peterson and some of the rest of them were over there, given backgrounders to show how the administration screwed up the Indian-Pakistan situation, and points out that this, of course, is deleterious to your foreign policy.

and that it just gives fuel to the Democrats that are going to start cutting this.

Now, you also have Henry at a point where he says that he is no longer going to take this being cut to pieces by the people in the State Department, and he is going to the leaking operation in his self-defense.

And then, of course, he fuzzes it in with some rationalizations to the point that if they follow the back channels and get the Middle East screwed up again without advising you and Henry, you're not going to be able to pull off the Middle East in Moscow.

And if they don't stop dealing with debris and so forth, they're going to screw up the

to the summit in Moscow.

Well, that's not the way you put it to me.

He's moving around.

He's covering all of us.

He hit John.

All right.

It was exactly the same thing.

He hit John.

Go ahead, John.

This is basically it, Mr. President.

I don't want to bore you.

But he didn't come in.

What is it?

This has only been three weeks yet.

He didn't come in.

But the tri-weekly demands he resign.

Well, I think we have plenty of gold.

We may have.

We've got a situation here where Henry is painting himself without realizing it.

Three more.

I, I, I, I know a safe.

Three more.

I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I

The real man of his life.

His concern about what happened.

His realization, I think, more than anything else, of what happened.

He blew it.

Coming back from the English University.

He blew it back to the press.

And maybe some students say that he could have made it.

He says, I'm not going to touch that.

And I ain't saying that.

And then, of course, finding that every time he came back to China, grazed by anybody, anytime, anyplace, he dug a wall of his own city.

Henry was not, believe me, one bit concerned about the owner.

His only reason was in relationship to the plan.

And that affected the state.

And then, when the last, when the last of his colleagues came home, they said, well, they said, we know that's where they came from.

He told me, David Williams, you know, what state is in the building right now?

But the writers are not going to take stuff from the state and build it on the Anderson Scott buildings.

That's his line.

It isn't true, though, is it?

No.

Dave Young checked out by Keith today, Anderson Scott, and it's still out of the same cycle.

Yeah.

And he says that they're building on the same cycle.

Having said all that, I mean, I realize that there are two sides.

You know what I do about the Rockers.

And, uh, we can go in that easy way.

And, uh, they both are, are, are active in the field in that way.

But, uh, we've got too much.

Let's focus on... We've got a media problem on it now, on, on just that thing.

The New York Times has got a task force doing this, one of their big super reports, you know, on how did the, uh, South Asian men come out and go into the apartment and say, what is a true story?

And there's, there's, there's stories, and everyone's in trouble.

So...

They approached Bill Rogers and said they wanted to interview him and the key people at the State Department to get any information.

And Bill Rogers said, no, and ordered his people to stay.

No, he said, we will not cooperate with the New York Times on such a story.

So then Henry said, yes, he will.

No, he's not going to Rockwell, but he is going to.

John called me and said he didn't want Henry to talk to the New York Times because the Times is also trying to do a story about how did Jack Anderson get the information for his comics.

And John wrote that he doesn't want Henry to talk to the Times about the subject he tried.

And Henry said to me on that, I won't talk to them about that, but I will talk to them on Salvation.

And I said, you can't separate it, but Jack Anderson's subject is Salvation.

This is about to get into the whole purpose of Henry's talking sometimes about consolidation.

You have to realize, John, this is self-justification, right?

Do you agree or not?

Well, that's Henry's initiative that comes out of consolidation from now on.

The people don't give a damn about this.

But it's about his self-destruction for Henry because he wants to get back at what the State Department leaked out to Martin Kalb and the rest of them.

So Bill came in to see me this morning and said, I'm concerned about this thing.

He said, I don't know what I should do.

I've now found, after I've issued orders that we're not talking to you at times, I've found that Henry's willing to talk to you.

He said, I can't keep our people locked up if the kids are just going to go off and talk to them.

So I'll go back and thank you.

But that, you ought to get to work, Henry.

All right, let's see what else I can do.

Well, his proposals are, as I just mentioned, are you talking about the interstate and so forth?

He, of course, wants to defend himself, but in the protection of your foreign policy, he feels that you have to have two things.

Number one, that they not go ahead and screw up the Middle East any further.

and that they not move without the clearance over here with you, and that the same with the Brennan and Moscow, that there be no communications that are not cleared through this particular office, so that those initiatives are not screwed up before you ever get there.

That's really his two basic factors.

My question to Henry was, what the hell do you expect the President to do all about this?

And he said, going back to his interest of the national security,

national interest and the political interest and all the rest of it, which he justifies just talking to me with that approach.

But these are the things that you need to protect yourself against the State Department in your upcoming initiatives.

Well, I think he's right on that.

There's no merit for any of you meeting separately and without communication with any of those people.

And that's what... Well, particularly not in these... What do you mean?

Well, Bill has his separate meetings with Jeffrey.

He won't tell Henry before him that he's doing it either.

And he won't tell Henry afterwards what he talked about.

And if he doesn't tell him, all right, the other side will get it.

And that's...

I think...

Well, except Henry does tell you.

That's his argument.

And I'm inclined to agree with Henry that the State Department is perfectly capable of screwing up the Middle East so that you won't be able to work it out in Moscow.

And then screwing up your approach.

I'm always on that.

And I'm always to the right.

You should tell me what the hell he's got to talk to Green about.

I must say that he doesn't talk to Green about anything that matters.

No, but Henry can see that.

He's dusting Henry's dusters apparently.

The president knows where the power is.

You see any?

He was convinced Rogers should really work with you over the weekend.

I said, well, yes.

I thought the same Rogers.

Doesn't say that we're talking.

He said, yes, he flew up on the plane.

I found out Rogers changed his plane and flew up on the plane with him.

I said, that's right.

The president spent 10 minutes with him with J. Edgar Hoover and a goddamn birthday cake.

How much he would even have done during that?

But he's just pathological.

That's where he really is.

And I saw Rogers, I saw Rogers at dinner with, what was his name?

J. Edgar Hoover.

And he'd be remodeled, he'd be remodeled, and we saw a movie.

We didn't talk about a goddamn thing.

He said, Mr. Rogers, why don't you walk in the corner and get all these things settled and all this stuff.

His point on that still is basically right.

Now, his point is not basically right, but when I'm in here and harassed me every goddamn living day about this juvenile attitude of his.

He asked me, and he was saying, he said, tell me frankly, has the president lost confidence in him?

Because I have convinced that he has.

I said, no, he hasn't, Henry, but the president does get, as anybody would, fed up with the constant talking that he gives.

And he said, I know, that's a problem with me.

He said, but that's my nature.

And he said, it's a weakness that I have, and it's the way I deal.

He said, all right.

It's the fact that you don't see this.

It's so heavy, John.

You know, the land is, I want it, I want it, it's mine.

You know the worst thing that happened?

Oh, I mean, I know all this stuff.

I know the, I knew the Indian blood.

Let me tell you, John.

When he makes that boo-boo on the phone, I know it better than anybody else.

I have never mentioned it.

He's talked to me about it at least 30 times, saying it was really the right thing to do.

And I know that he knows it.

He truly doesn't make boobers.

The thing that thoroughly frustrates him is you do it.

I love it!

Oh!

Bill moves unilaterally and refuses to tell.

Now, he has no objection to Bill having responsibility for an area or a project or something like that.

Maybe he will deal through Henry so that he knows what he's doing.

And I think he's probably wrong.

He is rewriting history.

I think he is.

For Christ's sakes, we did the whole thing here.

And he knows God.

Well, it would be a crisis on him about two or three months ago.

What the hell did Bill do three months ago?

Henry Kissinger, the last summer, Henry Kissinger wrote the talking paper.

He himself, when I met Mrs. Johnson, I was a guy who met Mrs. Francis and didn't read a goddamn song.

And he says, yeah, but we don't want to give her an excuse.

And you wrote about that.

He knows that.

He's been, he was wrong.

And I asked him, yeah, but you, you know, broke up.

He says, you didn't act strong enough.

And I said, what did the president fail to do that you broke up?

He said, that wasn't the problem.

He said, I failed to tell him.

He also, you know, on that, on the salvation of his death, wrong.

Now his other thing, his other complaint is, and this is purely a personal one, is that he is highly insulted by the fact that you have made an effort to be nice to him.

He says what he's doing there is he does take me seriously.

He thinks this is a petty, personal thing that can be handled by personal, you know, being nice to me and giving me follow-up while making sure everything's all right, giving me time off, and having Nelson Rockefeller call me and tell me everything's okay, and all that kind of thing.

He said that makes it worse, not better, because that papers over the substance with, you know, he wants to come in

Well, he has done that from time immemorial, but my concern is that he may be at a point, at the breaking point.

If you lost Kissinger vis-a-vis the State Department, then again, you're at a break.

Well, then again, you're toxic.

Secondly, that's the problem.

Secondly, I'm concerned that Kissinger may take how it has derived

all of the State Department.

Mr. Fitzgerald will admit that a lot of this is gunned down the balls, not Phil personally, but that Phil knows about it.

He could shut it off.

We may get into an inter-scene warfare here.

I heard a lot of what Phil doesn't know about it.

There was something she said about that.

That was not a shame.

Phil, no matter whether he could turn to anyone, he could build all the leaves out of his shop.

There are leaves out of his shop.

Yes, that's right.

He did not really.

Either they came over.

He was very absurd and everything about it.

All the rest of it.

Not about the owner.

That didn't bother him.

I mean, he was really rather sorry to hear it.

Because it wasn't a safe environment.

Well, he had a little different approach to it when I got after him this morning.

You still want to fire him?

I want to get rid of everybody because I've been taken and violated their oaths and they're crooked and so forth and so on.

I don't know what the answer is, Mr. President, except it seems to me that for the future you might give some consideration

in connection with your Moscow trip, restructuring the channels of the activities of the State Department.

I think that might be in your own interest.

Is that what Henry is for, when you said that?

What does he want to get Rogers to do with that stuff?

He doesn't want to get Rogers to do anything.

He wants Rogers to work with everybody.

He doesn't want separate projects.

He wants everybody involved and determined.

On the same planet, he doesn't want to tell Rogers what he's doing.

And, of course, he makes the argument that whether it's in the Middle East or anything else going to Moscow, that they could screw it up.

It's quite possible they could.

I've read the record on the Middle East, and the State Department just fall relapse in their memorandum and so forth.

Well, other than that, this Cisco is just capable of lying, straight up.

You get erroneous information in here.

And, uh, so there is some justification.

I know.

Well, huh?

You said what you do, but let me make one suggestion.

I think that one factor that's been missing in this all the way through has been direct tenure with Bill Rogers.

I don't think Henry's ever really been candid with him.

And I don't think you have, because I think you keep trying to keep the thing, you know, from focusing into a competition.

It's perfectly proper.

I suggest you leave this point.

In addition to that, Bob, there's a hell of a lot of things that the president can't do candidly.

That's right.

He can't do it.

Bill, on the other hand, when Bill has been told anything directly, he's got instructions that he knows are valid.

To my knowledge, he has never violated, and he has never put, he has never leaked anything or told anybody in the department anything that he was supposed not to tell them.

He's known some of the most sensitive notes ahead of time and handled them well.

He has power and strength.

But if he can't be with us, at least he keeps his mouth shut.

For instance, on Cambodia, I don't think you can fall, you can fall under, as Henry does for not standing up, but you can't fall under leave or undercut, because I don't believe he did.

Well, he's been hurt for a couple days, and he thought it was going to go all right, but he has to die.

And he's been very good at the bombing and all that stuff.

That's right.

And he wants to be, hypothetically, he wants to be helped.

He wants to be helped.

Partly because he wants us to play his own glorification.

Well, he doesn't want to lose.

That's right.

He doesn't want to be able to lose inside.

I, what I suggest, I think, I think maybe you can handle it alone, or I think maybe you and I can handle it together.

I can't do it alone.

I think you and I, or you or I, or some person or a combination of people, other than Henry and other than the President,

ought to sit down with Bill on a very, very strategic basis and say, there's been a lot of stuff in the past.

Maybe there have been some problems.

There have been reasons for them.

Let's try and sweep that out.

And we get too much at stake now.

I think it has to be tied.

They told me that the world was involved and personalities were going to destroy it.

Now what the hell can we do about it?

We can't change the personality.

We've got to change the personality.

We've got to keep this up.

People want to get in that business.

We've got to get them around the center.

And the officer said, well, you've got to go over to Moscow and negotiate that.

He said, no, you can't do that.

He said, well, that won't work.

And he's not going either.

And on the other hand, we have a problem with memory level with John.

We have to realize this.

He believes.

He believes quite well.

Bill Rogers is Paul, who is totally self-centered, and who seems to listen to Stuart Knapp, who is... Well, you've also frankly described Henry Kissinger.

And with regard to confidence in foreign affairs,

Only half wrong.

The bill is smart in many ways.

Henry would be well listened to, for example, in the area of public relations and foreign affairs.

He's quite as smart as Henry.

Henry has done so.

I don't think Bill is the kind of guy that likes to sit and sweat just like he is.

I'm sorry.

No, he's... Because that's why.

You can use Bill for what he is.

Bill is this.

His PR just is.

That was the original point.

Henry has utterly no PR.

And also Bill, of course, is a great man.

And as you have said, I can describe Henry in a very different way.

Now, the difficulty that Henry has is, as I've heard it, he does not have Bill's balance in one sense.

Bill is the married man and all that sort of thing.

It's a great little self-confidence that controls a man.

Henry has a very, his, his confidence is, is very strong.

I don't mean his confidence, his ability.

No, Henry, Henry has an inferiority complex.

He has, he has, he has his insecurities.

Now, for example, Bill would never, would never, I mean, have the,

It was an admirable that was going to happen.

There was a god damn thing we could do about it.

Henry tried to do as much as we could and what we did was worth doing.

What Henry ran up against there was something he didn't expect.

That was a very tough Soviet war.

He thought the Soviets were cooperating.

They didn't cooperate.

And after I met with the Soviet agriculture, which was a disgust, 24 hours of abuse, I remember the next day, and it wasn't something the Soviets were about to do.

They couldn't deliver Mrs. Kahn.

It ain't wanting to.

This is that.

But in this, but in that.

So much for that.

That's it.

would not write a second and rewrite the whole document.

And he tried to justify what he had done.

Sure, everybody knows that.

But he wouldn't be frank with his soul, naive, or even bad.

He would regard it like stupidity.

He would say, well, you can tell Bob that, well, the State Department really screwed the whole thing up, and I finally had to get in and try to save him, and so forth and so on.

I thought that was just not true.

That's not true about him.

That was not true.

And probably because it's not true, he was invented.

Henry's is all related to history.

History book.

Bill's is all related to Tomorrow Morning Seven.

Bill has no interest in the history book at all.

Not at all.

Doesn't even know there are any.

is a whole lot more interesting than the editorial is that uh

Henry takes the long view, perhaps too long, a little tertiary at times.

And Bill takes a very, very tertiary view.

Bill is basically supervision.

Henry is sometimes either boring and profound and tries to go all the way through stuff that sometimes is interesting and sometimes not so good.

The other thing is Bill has complete self-control and is totally rational.

The only time I ever saw Bill lose his cool was when Scali was lecturing him out there.

Uh, whereas, uh, Henry, Henry that's, Henry that's total out of self-control and is a ill mannered, bad mannered, and all the rest of it, Donald, my facility needs to be disembossed at any time.

It's been so good for everybody.

And, uh, that's right, we talked about it coming better under the major problem that John has got now, is that

We cannot continue to have a situation where we cannot continue to have a situation where we

I agree.

We have got to give gas officers things to do.

We've got to do it.

And I got an offer from Julius saying Christ, he was having me sign every goddamn thing that was.

So, I got an offer from Julius.

Very, very grateful.

I tried to rewrite the history of the black sand.

getting into this whole deal of police and so forth, who, frankly, talk about the Pope and his predator's eye and Darth Vader and so on.

And that's right.

Henry is not, let me say this, if you have the choice between Rogers and Henry Xavier,

Because Henry knows more than any man.

Basically, Henry, deep down, is more loyal.

Deep down, is more loyal.

Rogers and his way is more loyal.

Rogers lives lower and lower.

Let Henry pass it over to you, because you and Henry are going to be together again.

This would be impossible, because you'd have to work through Rogers with the State Department.

Yeah, I know.

I don't think he doesn't like it.

He likes to go to Florida.

He likes to go to California.

He likes all this kind of stuff.

Who the hell put him on?

Yeah, he did.

But he now says you're welcome to have him come.

What he's really arguing there is not that he didn't like the calls.

He wants to get down and have a talk about how you can kick rockers out of the government.

That's what you're doing.

Well, I put that to him.

I put it to him, too.

That was my first question.

I said, okay, let's figure out how we get our roots out of here.

That's obviously the only solution.

He said, no, that's not a solution.

You cannot get it out.

He shouldn't.

I would rather have Henry Kissinger rewriting Kissinger after the election than I would before the election.

Oh, yeah.

And the danger is that he might decide to write it before the election.

He's going to resign.

He's going to stop right now.

He's going to announce now that he's going to leave next year.

He's totally direction on that.

But let me tell you this, sir.

I come back to one thing.

You've got to remember, very fondly, I know they want to admit he's the greatest son of God because he's Jewish and second.

They're wrong on two things.

But the Jewish thing is a hell of a lot to do.

A hell of a lot to do, despite what he says.

The other point is...

I'm not convinced of that.

Well, anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I buy it for the other reason.

Because in our discussion in the Middle East, we...

agreed to discuss the scenario, which was roll the map.

I could roll the map for the election, I know.

But I, uh, let me put it this way.

I had a discussion with him before the 7th of July.

He said right after the 7th of July, he said, uh, uh, let's see, right after the 7th of July.

That wasn't even good policy.

Now the other thing is that

With regard to, though, the immediate problem here, Henry, is why.

On Indian Pakistan, what we have to realize is that the thing was bound to come out the way that it did, and Henry

is concerned because he feels that what we did failed.

And he knows that he's partly the blame.

He blames himself too much because I think whatever we would have done would have failed.

That's what I do.

And of course, I go back to the fight.

I say, Henry, goddammit, don't look back.

It's done.

And forget it.

It isn't always an issue.

Well, he's worried about the history.

He said, we had so many good things going, we've done this and that, and now they speak the perfect spirit.

But Bob, he is rewriting industry and history, and in fact, you know that goddamn thing.

What the hell, he had me over there at the last of the night.

That's when I pulled them all off.

I pulled them all off and said, all right, follow up when I send it.

He said that.

I said, now we've got that solution.

24 hours, we'll all be done.

We've destroyed the greatest coup.

We've got to go anywhere that they're really talking about the problem.

We are here.

We're proud of you.

The problem with rocket society, I think, along the lines you suggest, but what I can just simply say is,

Don't underestimate that that will solve the problem of Henry.

No, it won't.

Because Henry's problem is a deep emotional insecurity.

He is going to see to the other times, not because of his trying to get at Rogers.

That's the part that worries me more about this one.

He now has reached the point where he's a little bit ahead of the president.

That's important.

That's right.

And three, he believed in the two-wheeled version.

That's right.

He believed that he knows everything, that he can guide everyone.

That's right.

Yeah.

And frankly, in terms of, uh, I even had to talk to him in terms of his announcements about the two controls and the rest of this.

It's a rather categorized idea, and I suppose that he won't watch.

because he thought of this and he loved that and so forth and so on.

I told him, I said, we're going to do a question.

You're going to do a question.

I said, I understand.

You're speaking to him.

I'm speaking to him.

I said, Henry, come on.

I said, well, do you think that's what I'm going to do or not?

You know?

If I had, you wouldn't believe what he writes as suggestions for me to answer to those foreign policies because it's that guy.

Here we got involved an emotionally disturbed man because of a defeat.

He cannot take it.

And to defeat him, he attacks him as one that he takes personally.

He thinks that they're taking it all on him personally.

And so, therefore, he's trying to justify it.

Well, now, you're going to have both Rogers and Kissinger in San Clemente.

Yes.

Well, why don't we lay down the line that because of the Anderson story or anything else, neither Kissinger nor anybody in the State Department is going into this any further.

Maybe if we get the India-Pakistan thing behind Henry.

where he is shot at and he's not shot and shooting at them, then we might be able to... Henry cannot talk.

When did he agree?

I told nobody.

I told him, frankly, what became of my order that nobody should talk to the New York Times because of what they did in the Pentagon Papers.

See, your order did not...

I also told Henry he's not to set up any interviews except, you know, we'll drive him through, then you shift it to me because he didn't do a job.

But he won't do it.

Well, Bob... Bob, you've had the same conversation with Henry that I've had.

And he justifies it on his rebuttal on the basis that the state is doing it.

This is the time to shut them both off on Indian pecks.

And they'll be out there where they won't be so susceptible, hopefully.

And if anything leaks, we'll know who did it.

John, are you coming to California or not coming to California?

I know this is a new format.

You know, every other time I've been talking to Rogers, I've been beaten up on it.

This is a negotiating session to get this thing started.

I think it's now or next.

Who the hell is going to talk to him again?

I shouldn't.

I do.

And I do.

What Henry wants to see, and that's what he's objecting to do, Bob, what Henry wants is to come in here, to sit down, and take three hours of my time to talk about some of the big rockers in his consent department.

That's what he's objecting to.

I think John, I've got a broker that's in St. Jude's.

He's got a broker in Boatwood.

Yeah.

And I'll be...

In Henry's case, Mr. President, now that, uh, well, in addition to that, my friend, Nelson Rockefeller, should know, is in the picture, and we make it, like, he wants, Nelson wants, he's going to be down here this week, he wants to come in and see me about it.

So I can get Nelson to turn around the other way.

Yeah, he, he understands.

I think we might get some help.

He probably has a few problems.

I'm sure he can help.

Well, that's the most confusing thing.

No, it isn't.

I didn't see Rogers alone, Robert.

Well, I meant not.

I shouldn't have.

You could have.

The driver didn't want to see you.

No, the driver didn't want to see you.

No, he didn't ask.

He didn't ask.

He didn't ask to call you.

He didn't ask.

We had dinner with J. Edgar Hoover and he proposed a one-night on the plane on the way back.

Bill and his wife sat and talked to J. Edgar Hoover while I worked in the next department.

I saw him for ten minutes before getting off the plane, not with Hoover.

Well, it's illustrative of his ego, the thing that he has to be in every time you talk to the secretary of state.

I know.

Well, he's, yes, he, yes, but on the other hand, it's illustrative of his ego.

...cannibal, and some board minister from the upper boulder, the resident by God, he's hammering him.

He won't come in.

Now, certainly, he makes the president talk to these ass-matchers.

Prime Minister O'Hare says he's apparently the most important man in all of Africa, and then he sends one of his... Actually, actually, it is better.

It is really better than he would not be.

The reason being that he is a disturbing force in the meeting.

Now, that is not true.

That is not true.

The meeting has probably been wrapped up.

It was co-ordinated.

It's not in 48.

The count is speaking.

Henry is about to end his service.

This is terrible.

Cade is much better.

And also, Henry doesn't take good notes.

Well, I guess we'd better go to John.

You hold the line on...

There's a crossfire out there.

It's coming.

Hold on.

You've got to come out there to talk about it.

That's better.

I wish you'd come out there.

Okay.

you've got really a kind of run-through, you've got a blank page, use them all.

I mean, a lot of the men are happy to be reporting to people to turn each of those pieces up at this point.

And, uh, if Henry has any idea, as I said to Bob, um, I asked him, uh, Bob, I said, how long would Henry have watched John Connor as president?

And how long?

Well, I'm not sure.

I've heard of that.

It might have been a rocket.

No, it might have been a rocket.

sitting there with all the goddamn affairs of the nation and the world, and they go to come in and cry, you know, about these problems.

You don't do that.

I mean, other capitol officers don't do that.

You know what I mean?

The capitol officers just ask people for their purposes to help the president, not any of his goddamn burdens.

I mean, what the hell?

And this is all the way through.

I had to hold Henry Sandman through kindergarten.

I had to hold him through law school.

I had to hold him through the Pentagon Papers.

I had to hold him through this.

You know, the trouble is, John, he's a hell of a problem because he comes in.

And he's so terribly depressed about these things.

I've had to build him up.

Isn't that true, Tom?

It's just unbelievable.

And he's just really upset.

He said, the rest of us have been out here for an hour.

I know, but you shouldn't walk in here.

We're going to take that.

Do you think that would take care of him?

No, it doesn't.

You ought to have had to go to this medical center.

You don't have a little detail?

No, I don't have a little bit, or just a little bit.

Yeah, let's see.

Ladies and gentlemen, have a seat.

Come away.

Now, what happened?

Well, we'll stick around for a while.

We'll see you in a minute.