Nixon with unidentified visitors in the Oval Office on White House photography

0:10Move it up about six inches.
0:44All right.
0:47All right.
1:14Okay, let's put the gun around the wall now.
1:28And I will say, shoot.
1:36And we decided we like a smiling present, a fun-looking present.
1:43So we're going to make them both way.
1:46We'll make them just a little tumble, and then we'll make a couple of smiles.
1:52You know, like this here.
1:54And Collin, you can click on that trigger now.
1:56We can try a couple of things like that.
2:01That's nice.
2:02Let it go.
2:11We're just about ready.
2:16Give me a little smile this time, sir.
2:20Come on, let me see, let me see.
2:21Come on.
2:22Good smile.
2:23That's right, sir.
2:24Come on, let me see, let me see.
2:28Good, good.
2:29All right.
2:31Right again now.
2:32That's right, right again.
2:34Right to him.
2:35I know it's tough to go, but you're a smart guy.
2:37I'm not a smart guy.
2:38I'm not a CEO.
2:40Vice President, the way I see it, a happy president.
2:43Here we go, Carl.
2:47There you go.
2:48Here we go, right there, yes.
2:51Now, a little more of a campaign look this time.
2:54We're gonna go out and we're gonna give him a visit.
2:56We're in a pretty good position to give it to him now.
2:59The eye's right on that table.
3:00Good.
3:01He's at high speed, so move him.
3:03Now, here we go again.
3:06Give me a nice wide open grin this time.
3:09That's it, come on.
3:13All right, once again.
3:15On my eyes now, those eyes on my eyes.
3:19Now let me see that smile.
3:22Good, come on, open up, here we go.
3:28One more, all right.
3:29Once again, right here, all right.
3:31He's got a good smile now.
3:35Here we go.
3:36Come on, open it up, there we go.
3:41All right.
3:42Change the mic.
3:42Rest a minute, sir.
3:50All right.
3:514-12-8-9.
3:52See, he's got it.
3:55He's got it.
3:55Here you go.
3:55That daylight's safe.
3:57I don't know.
4:02I don't know.
4:03I don't know.
4:07I don't know.
4:08I don't know.
4:23Now, we just lose more of your energy.
4:38Here, that's fine.
4:38All right, all right, all right.
4:40Now, I'm going to get it to this side.
4:42All right, fine.
4:42Let me just check the scale here, please.
4:44Now, the eyes on the left.
4:46We'll try about four or five cell phone shots, but not two cell phones, but just a little 12.
4:56Oh, yeah, I see.
4:56Now, look, raise the eyes to the top of my head where it's spinning out there.
5:03All right, here, I'm going to lift it.
5:17Are you ready now?
5:19Stand up, you're ready, tell me.
5:20You're ready?
5:21All right.
5:22Try that again.
5:26I'm ready.
5:28All right, tell me.
5:30Good.
5:32The same thing, Carl.
5:33And watch the top, the peak of the smile.
5:35I'm going to try three to four smiley shots when you're through, Mr. President.
5:39Just think of that.
5:40All right, then.
5:41I'll give you that nice, good, President Nixon smile.
5:44Write it all back in there, and we're going to write on it both immediately after we get Mr. Blue back on.
5:50Thank you.
5:54Again with a smile.
5:54Now this time, Mr. President, I'm going to have you look up to one of my hands.
5:58Right.
5:59So I hold the chin.
6:00I want those eyes up.
6:01I want those eyes up to here.
6:04And a smile.
6:04I want to raise the eyes a little up like this.
6:07Got it.
6:08Now here, give me a nice smile now.
6:10Right to there.
6:11Six, seven, eight.
6:11All right.
6:12We're going to get down on the old cocoa.
6:14All right.
6:16There we go.
6:17We got a couple of bums, and they spread a nasty rumor.
6:23And I was surprised.
6:26I went down to see them.
7:04Sir, I know it's a very good time.
7:06Good to see you.
7:07Merry Christmas to you.
7:09Thank you.
7:10Merry Christmas to all of you.
7:11And then I'll go for a few minutes and then we'll go.
7:17You could have been supposed to come.
7:19I don't know.
7:22I don't know.
7:25I don't know.
7:26Thank you very much, sir.
7:31All right, that's all you have.
7:32Thank you.
7:34Good luck.
7:34Thanks for your trouble.
7:52All right, so we're doing both Ed and Trisha, and David and Julie.
7:56All right, let me go down and see how that goes.
8:03I'll be down here.
8:04Let's go.
10:15Of course, Mr. President.
10:17I'm called.
10:18Your age is younger than mine.
10:21Oh, sir.
10:23You're... 58.
10:27You're what?
10:2838.
10:28When did you born?
10:30August.
10:3219, 30.
10:33January.
10:3619, 30.
10:37Eight months older.
10:38Yeah, eight months older.
10:43Okay, okay.
10:43Yep, uh...
10:46He's right upstairs.
11:06If you'd like to just come outside and just try it out.
11:08I know we have a golf game, aren't we?
11:11Hello, what tennis?
11:15Oh, this is tennis.
11:15Oh, I thought I had a chance to tell you.
11:17You're in great shape.
11:18This is great.
11:19You know, golf, I tend to sort it down to your partner, so.
11:22Oh, yeah.
11:22And, uh, that's great.
11:28Let's see, uh...
11:44Oh, let me show you something great.
11:46Look at this.
11:47Walter Anker, my partner's ambassador to London, got this made.
11:55You see, that's the person I just sealed.
11:59It's a course made specifically for this.
12:06Isn't that a nice thing?
12:09He's a great, he's sort of a kind of guy that, you know, you probably haven't met him, but he's just a person, he's an officer, he's exceptional.
12:20The fireman still does a big thing about TV guys at Palm Springs.
12:25But he loves beautiful things.
12:28And he said to me, so I put that inside of the picture.
12:33You don't recognize him?
12:34That's Washington.
12:35No.
12:36That's Washington by the older people.
12:38There are many people still who did this with Washington's parents or something down there.
14:57Seeing he's still here, I wanted to see the dogs.
15:31I thought you had a mistake.
16:52Prior to the 3.30 meeting, I'd like to see Peter Peterson for a short period of time here at the National Economic Council met this morning.
17:04I feel it's important that Peterson give you a rundown on it.
17:11Perhaps you might want to do it prior to your coverage of the study.
17:16I'm Steve Roberts.
17:20No, he didn't.
17:21He doesn't understand Peterson.
17:24This one's new.
17:25We received a fill from Peterson on what transpired this morning, sir.
17:30Oh, I see.
17:32Thank you.
17:33That's right.
17:34Peterson will come in.
17:37Just for a moment, sir.
17:39All right, sir.
17:41Bye.
17:41The whole group is coming in.
17:43Yes, sir.
17:44The others are.
17:44I just felt you might be able to get a picture of them.
17:48If this is reported on this morning, I'll have your attention.
21:41Of course, there's a need for arms.
21:44I put more into this surgery than most people do, because my operations are not, it's an embarrassment to the group.
22:03They do an excellent job.
22:09I read it, but I don't use it
22:28I mean, I don't work as hard as I used to.
22:33I mean, I know more about it.
22:37It's the main question.
22:38The main question.
22:40I'm sure there's some people in Cambodia.
22:45That's what I...
22:52Yeah, but if there is, it's wrong.
22:53You have to follow the right reasoning.
22:55But see, if there are things he's wrong, so if not wrong, it's precise.
23:00If I get wrong, I get wrong.
23:01I want you to go back and read all the way through, you know.
23:36I mean, it's better than the other column.
23:38Here's the economic stuff.
23:39But here's mine, you see.
23:40I get it down, and it points to me.
23:43And so they wham, wham, wham, wham.
23:49And you get it.
23:50So for us, it's true.
23:52Well, it isn't as good as it could be.
23:54I mean, I often think that sometimes we spend more time, spend more time, that it isn't worth it.
25:14Well, I feel for you when you do these, because I, just watching them, I get sedated, you know, I couldn't get the food until four o'clock that night.
25:24People become foul.
25:26Oh, God, I get thinking of every question, and I relive it, and I just, I'm only watching it with you, I'm not in there picturing, but I feel like it when it's over, yeah.
25:41It's a...
25:43That was as much of an emotional role as last night.
25:49I think it was rather... You heard that he called all of them.
26:04you notice that one small thing that you notice all through this book preparation has uh when you know what they have and i feel this about me which of course was johnson's
26:33I said, Mr. Raddick, Mr. Raddick, Mr. Raddick.
26:41Well, it also projects you with a great deal of dignity.
26:45And Bob said that you were concerned that you should have hit him on a couple of times, right?
26:50I don't agree.
26:51I think that you... Well, some people felt...
26:53I mean, they had the...
26:54They felt that after one of my press conferences.
26:57You remember the one where they kept badgering and badgering me about not giving up the attention?
27:08Yeah.
27:08And all that kind of thing.
27:11He said, Mike, he said, no, look, I've answered that question three times.
27:18I'm not going to answer it again.
27:22I'll take the next question.
27:23He probably was right.
27:24I should have said it.
27:24Something, not, I don't know.
27:25How was it that way with the music?
27:27Yes, but the tone of last night, Mr. President, the lighting, the mood of the room, the way it was set up, your restraint and dignity came through.
27:35And calling him Mr. Rather is just part of that.
27:38And you patted him on the head a couple of times.
27:39Yes.
27:41You know, you said, where are you working?
27:42Which home are you talking about?
27:43Your office or your what?
27:44I mean, you just, you put it down so nicely that I think if you had that...
27:49When I talked to CBS, I said, that's what's reported, as you know, on CBS.
27:54Right, that's true.
27:54I didn't remember it was reported on CBS.
27:58What's beautiful is that you reported on CBS.
28:00That caught it.
28:01He wasn't sure that I, maybe I hadn't studied that way.
28:04He said, I don't know, he reported it with your mouth.
28:06I got it.
28:06You got him wondering.
28:08Well, he was on the spot.
28:09He's, when you think about it, he's, uh... Well, just think, the guy is the biggest goddamn thing that ever happened in the past.
28:14Sure.
28:15And he's, he's trying to step into the shoes of Cronkite and Silver-Eyed.
28:18He wants to make one of those top jobs.
28:20Right.
28:20And he's competing with Mike Wallace on it.
28:23Mike was a man because he was a selector.
28:28Mike, for some reason, sent a message to Henry Kissinger, who was one of their friends.
28:33If you did select him, Wallace would be a perfect guy to select because he's been getting friendly and conservative.
29:02He's come a long way since he used to be a raving liberal.
29:07But it's a mixed question for him, Mr. President, because he didn't come off that well.
29:16No, sir.
29:18I didn't see it and I didn't reply to it.
29:19So I was telling you to get a picture of us.
29:21And the judge also, there was some very bad answers.
29:24I really hate all of them.
29:25I don't know if there are people in trouble or not in trouble.
29:34For others, it's good.
29:36But he wants out.
29:36For others, it's good.
29:37They couldn't control it.
29:38The network has to do it their own way.
29:42Others said the picture was okay.
29:43Well, I was in the minority at the 815 meeting.
29:47I felt the picture was excellent, very, very good.
29:51And George didn't like it because he said it looked down on you and made your eyes smaller, sort of jowly.
29:57But it didn't come across that way to me at all.
30:00It came across with you looking very firm, very strong.
30:06Well, they could have done better.
30:09And it was good.
30:10And the tone was right.
30:12There was something about the room and the lighting that was very effective.
30:17It was low-key.
30:18And that's why Rather looked bad, because Rather tried to get kind of sharp and abrasive, and he looked a little immature.
30:24He didn't look...
30:25I don't think, well, I...
30:26It was quite impressive the way he'd done all his homework and brought out his little cards.
30:31Oh, he'd organized...
30:32He'd read all those things.
30:33Of course, some people, some people would resent that.
30:36They'd say, for Christ's sake, the President sat there on a note and he had to read his questions off the cards, but he didn't prove anybody with that.
30:47Well, I tried to, after we got all of us, I had Harry Gantt call some of the political people around the country to see how they reacted.
30:53And it's interesting, all of them, almost all of them, mentioned Rather.
30:58Rather, I'm sure.
31:00They're mad at Rather.
31:02They don't think, like, they didn't care what I said.
31:04Well, no, they went both ways.
31:05The interview went very well for the president, John Andrews.
31:09He feels that Andrews was struck by Rather's aggressive attitude and direct question.
31:16But if you go through these, about half of them thought it was the best performance you'd ever had on television, which I think is...
31:25Radha's hostility and President's coolness showed contrast between the sniping kid and dignified statesman.
31:32Strong reaction from people saying it was the best interview that the President ever had.
31:36I was a Florida National Committee woman.
31:42Everybody thought that you came through very, very well, and about a quarter of them have volunteered for comments about Radha.
31:50But when you go to the political people, almost all of them talk about Radha.
31:54because they're sensitized to the media hostility.
31:57And from that standpoint, that's a good thing, because... Yeah, the media hostility is really... Well, our friend Hank and a lot of people look at you, don't you think?
32:08I imagine he does today, yeah.
32:09And all the nuts do look real good.
32:11Yeah.
32:11When I say the nuts, I mean the people that support everything.
32:15Because I couldn't have done more, Chuck, than I did.
32:17I mean, if I'd gone a bit further, it would have been presumptuous, because I'm not a candidate myself.
32:22But I didn't do it like Eisenhower.
32:24I said, well, I haven't made my own decision.
32:25Therefore, I can't be presumptuous.
32:33Obviously, the convention will make that decision, but I guess just to give you a curtain on my own thinking, I believe that the winning team, they don't break it up.
32:53I think this is a very strong statement for us.
32:56Well, it was a very important statement.
32:57political service, President, because it doesn't tie your hands.
32:59Your options are open, as they should be.
33:00Let's say our options are open only.
33:01It's like, for example, I've done the same thing with Hoover and the farm around me, and Lovett and all that sort of thing, because I cannot get rid of Hoover.
33:17Well, not only that, but in the meantime, between now and the convention, the media would just have a field day trying to drive you and Agnew apart, speculating on Connelly, speculating on others.
33:40This is...
33:42We did accomplish a few things last night.
33:49How did you like the way I stuck it to him, that 68 bomb hole?
33:55Because that son of a bitch was talking about that.
33:58He didn't raise that question when they pulled the bomb hole.
34:01If there was anything ever as political as that was.
34:04And not a one of them speak to that.
34:06No, nobody ever said it was politics.
34:08Oh, you stuck it to him last night about six times.
34:11Massively.
34:15The premise is?
34:16Last night.
34:18Yeah, and beautifully on the press.
34:21I mean, when you talked about presses, I noticed a pool where the press has their own credibility.
34:27They have.
34:28Oh, hell.
34:29Air shows the press is down, too.
34:30Wait a minute.
34:31Wait a minute.
34:32We all have a responsibility to build it up.
34:35That kills us on the brink, because it gets in the way of that cocky snide attitude.
34:44He won't have a cocky snide attitude this morning.
34:46What have you been able to do?
34:48There's been a lot of telegrams.
34:51Letters, 1030.
34:51Let's see if I can find this.
34:58Yeah, by 10.30 there had been about 60 phone calls to his office.
35:03His secretary was virtually in tears because she wouldn't let calls through to him.
35:11But she kept saying to the callers, you're complaining?
35:15We all thought he did so beautifully.
35:17And one of the last reports I had was that she was just terribly distraught over the call.
35:23She was taking the messages faithfully.
35:27The first thing he did was, we all here wanted people wanting to see Jesse.
35:32People wanted him to be great because he was in the agency.
35:34See, they were cheering him on.
35:35They thought that's what they wanted to see.
35:38We wouldn't know our copy, but it's Manolo.
35:42It's Manolo around, and he'd go out.
35:44He just went over to the residence and finished packing.
35:48Why did he do it?
35:51All right.
35:52We do have a lot of software to put him on his phone.
35:56Well, I think just a few calls, don't even lose, because otherwise they'd all be sitting around there smug and batting and spanking at her.
36:05Unfortunately, we don't have the waiter.
36:06We've got Jerry Warren, who's fine, but he's a punctual one to me.
36:14He's just out there.
36:15But this is no time for my hard-pressed kind of shit.
36:20I've got someone doing that who does it on a very effective, very low-key basis.
36:28I told him today that
36:35Get out of the office and circulate with the press people that he talks to.
36:43I haven't had the report back from him.
36:46I'll have it this evening from some way.
36:48I just don't want to go out and talk to his friends.
36:52He's written a letter to Rabbit.
36:57He said, I'm not asking you for a correction, but I'm sending you this note to say that while I appreciate your quoting our surveys, I also hope in the future they can be quoted
37:05in the context in which they are asked and reported, goes on to tell precisely what the questions were.
37:11And he said, the one point I thought was quite out of context was your assertion that only about one-third thought the President had kept his promises made in 1968.
37:21While technically correct, in fact, the division is quite close, 44 to 37 percent, that he has not kept his promises.
37:28The implication of the way you put it was that by two to one, most people think the President has not kept his promises.
37:34And he just takes each one of his fold cushions.
37:37Now, he's letting me give this to Evans and Obeck and one or two others, so we'll create a little rift between them.
37:44He can't help but fight them because he needs their business.
37:48How many of his best off?
37:50Oh, genuinely.
37:50Oh, God, he was in sense last night.
37:53I was going to say, he thinks you're best when you're under that kind of...
37:58Your points do come across a hell of a lot stronger that way.
38:03While it's tougher on you, I know, nonetheless, it's a better way to make problems.
38:27I don't know if an audience should get this kind of thing.
38:30You're up against it.
38:31You're up against it.
38:32These specials at that time of the night don't get a hell of a big audience.
38:36A Christmas show is only 10 million.
38:40Well, it depends how you read it, the Christmas show.
38:44They may have gotten more than that because Nielsen doesn't take the overall number of sets in use that week.
38:51So you have to project based on the New York ratings
38:56And if you did, which came out at 7.6%, and it would just depend on how many sets were on that night.
39:05It could be anywhere from 10 to 12 to 15 on the Christmas Eve program.
39:14And NBC is convinced on the earlier one, the day of the presidency, that they had over 15.
39:21They are saying 18 to 20.
39:24Yes, sir.
39:26On a 7.3 rating.
39:27You see it, which is...
39:29Right.
39:31But... No, not for a public service program.
39:36Not when it was running against entertainment on both other networks.
39:42And... Well... That's... No, that's what you get with...
39:55Howard K. Smith was lower than that.
39:57They got more than Howard Smith.
39:59It was around five-something.
40:03And that was 11 million, if you remember.
40:05Howard Smith was 11 million at 5.6, I think.
40:07So they... NBC was very satisfied with their...
40:13But the interesting thing about the Christmas at the White House night was that you increased the rating over the preceding program, which never happens with public service.
40:23That means that people...
40:26changed from another channel to CBS to see that Christmas Eve program.
40:32That means they really had one.
40:35They promoted that well, and people were aware of it and wanted to see it.
40:40One thing I think we ought to do, though, is...
40:46I did a couple of people who are, understand, don't get caught in the White House.
40:52Don't get some goddamn thing in the columns in the White House that stipulates letters.
40:57You know what I mean?
40:58This is terribly hard because we've got so many goddamn leaders.
41:04But the idea that somebody
41:06Some of the important moderators came.
41:15Some of the important moderators did.
41:20I mean, I wouldn't let them think that they did this.
41:21I'd let them think that they did this.
41:24As a matter of fact, they made this mistake.
41:27Oh, I think they will, yeah.
41:28I mean, if our calls show this, some of them are going to say that.
41:35Well, we won't get caught at it.
41:37We only get blamed for things we don't do.
41:40We don't usually get caught at the things we do.
41:44I end up reading about things that have been involved and I never heard of it.
41:51But your general feeling was that... That's true.
42:00No, and even in the minds of people, even...
42:05where people didn't get an impression of rather, they got a strong impression of you.
42:09The reaction was universally good with an awful lot of people saying they thought it was your best time on it.
42:17That we don't always get on Decor.
42:21We got a very large number, especially among the political people, which I think is great because that kind of charges up our feelings.
42:35Mm-hmm.
42:37We also, Mr. President, have this little group, Accuracy and Media.
42:41They're good.
42:42They just, God, they raise hell.
42:44And they know how to get publicity, and they've established a good network of people around the country.
42:49We've got them in the ad class, right?
42:51And Cliff Shields' group, the CBS affiliates.
42:54Good.
42:55They're raising a little hell.
42:56Well, I have...
43:00Of course, we made some pretty damn good points last night from the news, the heart and the egg campaign.
43:06But the idea of what the peace trip was all about, and the idea about why the bombing was done, and how successful it was, and we're going to have another troop withdrawal.
43:23It's played very heavily.
43:25And I think the networks will play heavily tonight.
43:29The wires today are running a very, very heavy excerpt from TV, and still running it today.
43:38Wally Nears has done a political piece on it.
43:45You made a lot of news.
43:46It'll continue for two or three more years.
43:49No, Radler is the curious one who, every time virtually we have a press conference, particularly on the news,
44:00He always puts in the needle whether the president was angry or nervous or, you know what I mean, and, you know, goddamn, and there's nothing to it.
44:11And, like, innocently, after the, he was the only one, you know, way off the edge in the AIDS order, he says, the president was glum.
44:18very strong, et cetera, et cetera.
44:21And of course, everybody else knew that it was a tremendous achievement.
44:26But I didn't really believe, you see, I have not, I have not bought anything there.
44:33He sucks up to people.
44:34He's a clever snake.
44:36But I believe that he is basically
44:40extremely antagonistic in terms of trying every time to stick it in, and he only sucks up when he feels he has to for credibility.
44:52You know, when I cracked him last time about this, I didn't want to get into it too hard, where I said, well, the crisis of correcting itself
45:06He said, we always want to correct ourselves.
45:16We try to be fair and all that sort of thing.
45:19I said, well, I mean, that's your problem.
45:20That's your credibility.
45:21That's a bird in their ass.
45:22Oh, sure.
45:24He's the main hope on that.
45:25Well, they won't correct anything.
45:26And he, least of all, we've gone to him.
45:27The one time we really had him was when he had that unemployment rate wrong.
45:30Remember, he called it at 6%.
45:31Right.
45:32Unemployment, and he did it three times on network, twice on network news, once in the morning, twice in the evening.
45:39And then when we really nailed him to the wall, then he went out in the morning on radio and corrected himself.
45:46And he did correct himself, but of course he nowhere near balanced the damage he had done with three negative reports.
45:55Sometimes I like to be on the press and just talk about the press.
45:59Oh, God, that's the one thing I'd love to do.
46:01Which I can do.
46:02Oh.
46:03I can do it very fairly, and the rest of the time, just tell them why they aren't, why they're prejudiced and so forth and so on.
46:10He was afraid to get too much into the press with me, though.
46:13He was, you know, he didn't, he didn't push me on that.
46:16No, he didn't.
46:17No, he didn't.
46:18Because I was slow.
46:19He's a, he's an interesting fellow, and I, I refuse to see him.
46:24He's asked to see me.
46:25I won't talk to him.
46:27But he, he sucks around in,
46:29In conversations with people here, he will say how really he wants to be fair, he really is objective, but then he goes on the air and just jacks it to us repeatedly.
46:39He's the one guy I think who's, well, sure, he's the worst, but he doesn't get the exposure.
46:45Sure, he doesn't.
46:46Goddamn story with Conley.
46:49Oh, that's an awful story.
46:50Oh, God, it's totally awful.
46:52Have you talked to Conley since then?
46:54All of them talk.
46:57total goddamn bunch of crap.
47:02Mitch Nash.
47:03Sure, Major?
47:04I wouldn't put it past him, except I'm a little nervous that Conway doesn't go wandering off.
47:13He's not?
47:20Absolutely not.
47:20That one statement he made when he came back from, when he left the Texas club, he said, I want to go out and
47:26ride my horse in the prairies for a long ride and think about my own future.
47:31I just got a little uneasy when he said that.
47:34No, but that was in Paris, right?
47:38I don't remember where, so it may have been.
47:51Well, he's just such a great...
47:52He's very nice, though.
47:54Oh, God.
47:55Must be entering Congress pressure.
47:58Well, that's all I worry about, is that his old cronies are there.
48:00Johnson, Harris, and the Bachelors are just out in the bush.
48:05They have to be.
48:06They have to be.
48:08They don't know what to do.
48:10Boy, one thing I'm glad to believe of Tom Radcliffe's doorstep, which is that rather insulting question on George Wallace, whether or not he was in Mexico, that's the problem with that.
48:22You know, he had conveniently indicated he was going to the Democratic primary system.
48:40I thought that was a good thing to do.
48:42It was a good answer.
48:43He came right back to you and tried to, fortunately, answer it.
48:48Time magazine gave us a hell of a good build-up on the economy today, Mr. President.
49:02Yes, this week.
49:03Yes, sir.
49:04It went out this morning.
49:05Six-page article with a big headline that lasts a year of real recovery.
49:11And it goes on to talk about the economic indicators.
49:15Europe's predictions are being borne out.
49:18And their board of economists have met again and now reaffirmed that next year will be a spectacular growth.
49:27And the Christmas sales were a howling success.
49:31They just detail all of the things we've been talking about.
49:34About the most positive article in the economy, I think, I've read yet.
49:38And as a matter of fact, they advertise it all over the country.
49:45Liftoff, 1972, will be the year of real recovery, unanimous opinion of Time's Board of Accountants.
49:52And this is going, they ran a full page over the major news, and the article itself is very, very soft.
50:01In fact, all the year-end stuff has come through, the various, even the conference board, which has been the most
50:14downbeat of oil is talking about 6% real growth rate this year.
50:20Which, if it happens, will really, really eat into the unemployment rate.
50:30We're unfortunate.
50:31I'm unfortunate.
50:32Both of them.
50:33Even the militia.
50:35Last year, Henry, last year, it was a good year.
50:38It was moving up even before the new economic policy.
50:41We forget, you know.
50:42The GNP in the first quarter, the GNP in the second quarter, the third showed some lovely law, but it was given up.
50:49I mean, it's all a question of psychology.
50:54Yeah, you had the market and you had the consumerism.
50:57attitudes just plunging and that was that was the kind of thing that happened there well the media were getting it so hard the media and the result that we went off and really kind of wanted to see the result the market was 50 percent above what it was we spent last year it's 100 points above what it was the whole this year now the market we'll see what happens going strong today it opened up the dodge center
51:25Well, at 2 o'clock it was even, but it was about 5 points up this morning.
51:29Good heavy volume.
51:30And down, down to even at 2?
51:32Yes, sir.
51:34But it's... Well, it's not... Yeah, I'd be happy just to see it just leap along.
51:42You can't just go up?
51:44No, not when it's around 900.
51:49You know, it's an interesting...
51:51It's an interesting lesson on the economy.
51:53We all forget around here how frantically we were fighting off the media reports night after night on television.
52:00And we just thought about it a minute ago.
52:04It was at least two and three times a week that we would get a devastating jab by one of them.
52:12And that's what caused the public psychology to tailspin.
52:15And then when you announced
52:17the New Economic Program and took the issue away, they didn't have that to do anymore.
52:23And they've really kind of stopped.
52:25You get very little negative stuff now in the media or in the economy.
52:29In fact, it's all coming through exceptionally strong.
52:33But there's a lesson in taking the issue away from them.
52:38Almost more important than taking it away from the Democrats is you take it away from the media.
52:43They don't have anything to complain about because we've done
52:47We've done so much, they can't follow this.
52:50And they stopped paying attention to it, which is really what's happened.
52:55In the last three months, we've had just a few negative reports on the economy.
53:03And yet, when you think about it, the basic conditions aren't that different.
53:08They had an issue.
53:09They were riding, and they rode it.
53:11Damned into the ground.
53:12Damned into the ground.
53:33But that's really one great lesson out of that August announcement.
53:40It stole that issue completely.
53:42And the minute they stopped talking about it, it held up.
53:46What's happened to the Public Attitude Assembly?
53:48He won't let that issue die, Mr. President.
53:53No.
54:02Yes, now he dies.
54:04You see, I didn't want him to die.
54:06Oh my God, no.
54:07Before that, if he does now, he's back with his boots on.
54:11He's back with his boots on and he's kicked us again.
54:15And he is going to get a sympathy reaction.
54:18Every time he kicks us, he's going to revive the Miami story and give us a sympathy reaction.
54:24And that's the thing we want to do.
54:28If he had died a month after Miami, it would have been
54:32it would have bounced back on us because we would have been blamed.
54:37But it's interesting.
54:40He is keeping the damn thing alive.
54:42He just sent out his, I don't know if it was me, but he sent around a monthly Federationist, which was the April Seattle publication.
54:51And he went out of his way to have pictures of him smiling and applauding while you were speaking.
54:57He wrote a
54:58long two-page statement about how he personally escorted you to the platform.
55:03He thought he was going to escort you off.
55:06But you got away from him and went down into the crowd.
55:08He thought he was.
55:10He didn't make any moves.
55:12Well, he said he had planned to escort you back to your... You remember, I had your hands with him.
55:17Oh, you grabbed his arm to shake hands.
55:20Yeah.
55:20He forgets that all of this was televised.
55:22I had your hands, and I turned away and started to walk.
55:25Christ, he didn't try to walk with me.
55:26No.
55:26He stayed right out of there.
55:29And the more he... Television killed him.
55:30Television killed him.
55:31And the more... And even the written press did.
55:33You know, you got a summary from Liv Klein of all the other girls.
55:38Yeah.
55:39And you sent me a note saying it looked more like they were classy, mean, and crazy than you occurred.
55:45I went back to a lot of them, and the anti-meany stuff did outweigh the courage, but not by a heck of a lot.
55:56An awful lot of these editorials...
55:59that we went back and looked at were very positive, I hear.
56:04I'm talking about your courage, telling it like it is, walking into the lion's den.
56:11To Mr. Nixon's lasting credit, he admired the President's display of courage, and every time he raises that issue, it just comes right on back.
56:25Well, I'll see you, Mr. Hedren.
56:28I'm, I'm supposed to bring him in.
56:30I think we've just got a, a session to take.
56:32Yeah.
56:33All you have to do is tell him you have to be, uh...
56:37I'm gonna do the dad.
56:39Well, and that you have his money.
56:41That's all he cares about.
56:43I have his money, but the government, yeah.
56:45Yeah, we, we've got to have the money.
56:46We've got to get him out there.
56:48Well, it's a total waste of your time, I mean... Sure, he doesn't...
56:52Thank you.
56:53He doesn't deserve it.
56:55No, he doesn't.
56:55Goddamn, he should have done better.
56:58What's that?
57:00Well, he wants to resign and become a chairman of Park Cut and find a successor.
57:05I don't think he's being paid.
57:10I don't think he's been paid at all, from what I understand.
57:15I know nothing about the National Assembly.
57:17I just know something about it.
57:24He waived his salary.
57:25Yeah.
57:26Because they didn't have any money.
57:28I think that's right.
57:30All right.
57:31Everything just feels that you need a quick, quick bit of water.
57:35Yes, sir.
57:353 o'clock.
57:37Yes, sir.
57:37I was, uh, I wanted to talk to you about another kind of report that came in regarding the, uh,
57:53Connelly thing, you know.
57:56Colson said he, he, he apparently, he was, was quoting that, uh, thing he brought me on the phone about the cops.
58:05He wanted to go to Texas to ride his horse to Connelly.
58:08He was reading the Paris Code thing.
58:11He was in New Zealand a couple weeks ago.
58:12And, uh, I said, oh, don't worry about it.
58:17He said, Connelly's in good shape.
58:21But anyway.
58:23I just want to be sure you believe now that everybody around here is aware of his obligation to... Yeah, Peterson's president recognized Conley's high sensitivity and he touched base with him and called him and so forth.
58:45Peterson, on his own, came in this morning to me and said, what was all that stuff?
58:50He said, I can't believe that because when Conley came back from the Azores, he called me, asked me to come over to his apartment.
59:00I went over and I said, I think it was Sunday afternoon or something, but I spent a couple hours with him at his request and he was...
59:06just so upbeat.
59:07When he got the agreement, he called on the phone from over there to say, you know, this is what we're doing and all this.
59:13And he was told it was a great accomplishment.
59:18He said it was a, you know, obviously the whole thing was a skillful maneuver because Connie did back off of his position, but he said his press was just superb on it.
59:26Because it ended up, you know, with Connigan in credit for it all.
59:29Just let me tell you, your assignment is to watch him.
59:31Okay.
59:31And Schultz was in the day, for example, on the CEA, and I said, I want a woman.
59:35He said, well, Connigan, you know, all right.
59:39I said, you call him.
59:42I'm like, we have this woman.
59:43But he is the man who's judging my wife.
59:46You take her.
59:48I mean, we just have a goddamn shirt.
59:51It's such a valuable property that we cannot have any of the little boys around here.
59:56I mean by our little boys, I don't mean people below the top people.
59:59I don't think Schultz or Rutherford did any of these mistakes.
1:00:03They must not be an appearance.
1:00:05Nobody will make a mistake intentionally.
1:00:07There is always the possibility that someone will forget
1:00:11to check something with him or raise something with him that we should have had.
1:00:14I just tried to rub the wrong notes on that to the point where nobody would even think of doing anything without talking to the company first.
1:00:21That's the way it's got to be.
1:00:24Do you want Price in California on the State of the Union at all?
1:00:30He's got a draft in that you'll have on the plane.
1:00:35Well, he could come out later in the week if he wanted to.
1:00:38Yeah.
1:00:39There's no reason to get out the next couple of days.
1:00:41There's no reason.
1:00:42I'd probably go out and talk to Henry a little about the drafts I've got to do on that.
1:00:49Yeah.
1:00:50Well.
1:00:53See, there's a plane coming out Wednesday.
1:00:55He could come out then.
1:00:55Come out Wednesday, yeah.
1:00:56If he wanted to work with one.
1:00:57I don't know what the hell Brian's about to say to you.
1:00:59It's happening for some time.
1:01:00I'm trying to figure it out.
1:01:00We're trying to figure it out.
1:01:05Okay.
1:04:49So is it Henry Ford?
1:04:51Yes, sir.
1:04:53I think what that mess out there must have been the television people.
1:04:57Yes, sir, it was.
1:04:58But they should always, you know, you never know when I'm going to be bringing somebody out.
1:05:04The people should always keep that clean out there.
1:05:07I should check, Mr. President.
1:05:08You should check it.
1:05:09God damn it, you're not the janitor.
1:05:10But there are about, there must be 1,500 janitors in this White House.
1:05:14I see them all in on the room.
1:05:17Now, God damn it, they didn't keep that clean out there.
1:05:21There were at least pinched cigarette butts.
1:05:23And it was important to do it right out here.
1:05:28Pinch a cigarette, at least pinch.
1:05:30And, uh, and, uh, three paper cups.
1:05:35And, uh...
1:05:36and so forth, strewn out there.
1:05:38It was a goddamned hog pen.
1:05:39You could look down here and see it.
1:05:40The press had seen it.
1:05:42It was there when I came in in the morning.
1:05:44I thought, well, I suppose they just didn't get around to cleaning it.
1:05:47I went out of the trappers and they were still there.
1:05:50But it is, you know what I mean, this goddamned staff is going to be shaken up again.
1:05:54I mean the janitorial staff.
1:05:57They are not to leave this place looking like a hog pen around here.
1:06:00That's going to leave that place looking like a hog pen.
1:06:02I think they usually have a cooling oven right after.
1:06:06They come in at night and clean up the office.
1:06:10Well, they should clean up in the morning.
1:06:15They've got to remember I take people out.
1:06:21I take them out to their cars.
1:06:22I walk out.
1:06:23It's not your job.
1:06:25I just meant you get the janitorial staff.
1:06:28Who was it, Stout?
1:06:28Was that his job?
1:06:30No, his.
1:06:30It was PSA.
1:06:31Yeah.
1:06:32I'm sorry to interrupt, sir.
1:06:36who do, normally, an outstanding job.
1:06:38Boy, there's no excuse for that.
1:06:41We all look at these clocks.
1:06:43Okay, fine, fine, thank you.
1:06:49I agree.
1:06:50I agree.
1:06:51I agree.
1:06:57I agree.
1:06:59I agree.
1:07:00I agree.
1:07:01I agree.
1:07:02I agree.
1:09:00On the Japanese dinner Thursday night, Henry's gone up the wall.
1:09:06We thought that he wouldn't be there.
1:09:08He says, you don't understand that the Japanese consider him the second most important person in the entire world.
1:09:19We could take a stab at asking Kennedy not to go to the dinner, even though he's there, on the basis of the ticklishness of the balance.
1:09:28that they don't have any opposite number of fifths.
1:09:31No, they don't.
1:09:33Now, what they're suggesting, they've only got four principals and their fifth guy, whether our fifth were Henry or Kennedy, their fifth they would want to have is Ushiba.
1:09:47And that poses a problem of having Meyer.
1:09:48I will not have Meyer.
1:09:49But Alex Johnson says that is not a problem, that Ushiba should come and that it's not a problem to leave Meyer out.
1:10:00And, but that's still, we'd have to have.
1:10:03You could get 12 in there, I suppose, couldn't you?
1:10:06No.
1:10:10Well, let me tell you, we won't decide until I get there.
1:10:16I would think the thing with Goddamn Henry is that he is just childish about Boston.
1:10:22And I cannot be on this one, because the point is that after he did the China trip and all, this guy thinks he's going to be in the 80s.
1:10:29All right.
1:10:31Listen, let me tell you why he did the China trip.
1:10:35This is the reason.
1:10:36He never fails to say that he doesn't have to be in one of these.
1:10:41Huh?
1:10:42I don't know.
1:10:44So, but anyhow, it's one of those fetishes.
1:10:52Okay.
1:10:52I'm trying to work it out, but it seems to me that we'll take a little pause.
1:11:00Just not.
1:11:01So if you would, it's a better place to start.
1:11:03Mr. President, how are you?
1:11:04Happy New Year, see?
1:11:05Happy New Year.
1:11:06Congratulations on everything you're doing.
1:11:08Happy New Year.
1:11:09How are you?
1:11:10How are you?
1:11:12Yeah, I do.
1:11:16Isn't that awful?
1:11:19I was down pretty near to this cane.
1:11:27We have a house that holds sound.
1:11:29So we fly in a lot.
1:11:42Everybody's got to have a rentable asset.
1:11:50That's right.
1:12:00I want to tell you that I am certainly grateful for what you've done.
1:12:07This operation, I know he's done all the work.
1:12:10I know, I know.
1:12:11He's done all the work.
1:12:13I think it's very important.
1:12:16I realize that it's
1:12:21They're very spongy, hard to get into, hard to go up to grab.
1:12:27That's why, and you get it particularly in the fundraising side, that's awfully hard.
1:12:36That's, of course, the wheel, as you know.
1:12:39So, under the certain chances, though, I think that we can.
1:12:48I think we can.
1:12:50When I wrote you the letter, you were in a little trouble.
1:12:58I'll handle it.
1:12:59Ted tells me that I was away a couple of weeks, and with his information, things look much better now.
1:13:06I think I heard something.
1:13:07Yes.
1:13:08Best thing to carry.
1:13:09So I understand it as of just recently, it would be $500,000 from action, and then a budgeted number of $1 million for fiscal 73.
1:13:19Right.
1:13:21i think with those two things the program now that's a million and a half you add it to what we have yeah well you do have to work in numbers that we we don't have to wait but it's um i still feel very strongly that we need a private sector more private sector back in order not just to become an arm of
1:13:45government without any of the leverage of being inside.
1:14:21in order to give it some standing as a volunteer activity rather than just as a government activity.
1:14:30That's my feeling.
1:14:31Well, we fully agree with you, Mr. President.
1:14:33The point, however, is that it was very difficult to be able to get money out of the private sector because actually we didn't have a tangible...
1:14:44a really good, tangible program for them to look at and get firmly interested in saying, well, this is something we believe in and this is something we'll give the money to now.
1:14:54I think with what we've been talking about, what you're talking about,
1:14:58Going further on this program, we may be able to get some more in 2020, but it's not going to be very easy.
1:15:04I wouldn't want to have you think that it's going to be easy because, I don't know, you know, people have got so many applications.
1:15:13There are so many institutions that are looking for funds for one reason or another.
1:15:20You've just got to work hard at it, but it just isn't easy.
1:15:22And we really haven't even had full payment on a lot of the pledges that we've been in for quite a period of time.
1:15:30So at this point, when I wrote the letter of reserve in the 60s and 70s, and I felt that I should let you know about it.
1:15:39You're a 10-9, 3-0.
1:15:39When Henry, to pull that down to some numbers, Mr. President, when Henry recruited me,
1:15:45We were about 400,000 behind on pledges, and we had recaptured just half of us.
1:15:51So they're about 200,000 out.
1:15:54And I think that one thing that can be done that would be appropriate and very, very helpful would be if your four or five top aides in the White House could be encouraged, whenever they have the opportunity, just to articulate your sense of priority to people who are strong supporters of yours and of this type of program.
1:16:14There are a bunch of them, and that would include some of the people who are behind on pledges.
1:16:19When they just happen to run into them, just say, I hope you're going to be able to pay that up, because that's the flow that's already there, and these people are just so petty.
1:16:28And there may be others, as they would know.
1:16:30That's sort of hard in a political year right now.
1:16:34since you haven't declared on here.
1:16:35It is, it's out of a different country.
1:16:38Sure, they have foundations.
1:16:41Foundations, corporate gifts, and it's deductible.
1:16:45We have established that as of two weeks ago, finally got the IRS ruling that we're a public foundation.
1:16:51So we took all that time to do it, because they're, you know, they had to rule on all of these things with the new tax law.
1:16:56All right, let's not let that follow us on.
1:16:59That'll help immensely.
1:17:01That'll be done.
1:17:06Now, what about the project?
1:17:09I talked to Finch, and I asked him to work around that thing, and he came to.
1:17:14Now, if you get one thing and put your teeth in it,
1:17:21and go on and maybe we can solve it.
1:17:25Yeah, I think we're looking very good.
1:17:29I'm glad you didn't give us a chance to chat with you a month earlier.
1:17:33We're going to look very good right now.
1:17:35We set out by the end of the year.
1:17:37That's when I talked to him about three weeks ago.
1:17:39He said you were working on it.
1:17:43Yeah.
1:17:43What we aimed for was to get 100 local centers into place so we'd have a network for pushing programs.
1:17:50So we've got 80 going, full force in effect.
1:17:54You really have?
1:17:55Going.
1:17:55They are really there?
1:17:56Yeah, since April.
1:17:58So we know the program.
1:18:00Oh, yeah.
1:18:01Directors, boards, the whole lot.
1:18:04Using volunteers.
1:18:05Good.
1:18:06And another 40 being formed.
1:18:10So now we have a network.
1:18:12With the money from action, we'll be able to sustain that and let the network grow.
1:18:17So that's an important thing.
1:18:20um my understanding is that you've agreed to come to the award center if you're free on the 10th that itself is very no no not if you want to change it but it's awfully close to one sir because well i just
1:18:46uh... uh... uh...
1:19:15No problem.
1:19:17January, February the 10th.
1:19:20We all call it a good idea.
1:19:22Good, good.
1:19:24That's better.
1:19:25Thank you.
1:19:25We all bring this house and coffee.
1:19:27Very good coffee.
1:19:59I take it back.
1:20:05Thank you.
1:20:06You could do it on another date.
1:20:11Tell me, do you have any range of dates that you could do on that?
1:20:20Well, we will surely rearrange it.
1:20:22We need to... No, it's going to be on the top floor of the Kennedy Center.
1:20:33Yes, the dinner would be big for the White House.
1:20:39We would have our board meeting that afternoon, and they would come to the dinner, which would give you a chance to salute the board, as well as the volunteer award winners.
1:20:52And we can surely push it off.
1:21:03We didn't want to do it in the middle of China.
1:21:08Yeah, yeah.
1:21:11I wouldn't mind getting there.
1:21:12Along with the rest of the press, huh?
1:21:14Look, I'll work on this schedule, and I'll tell them all.
1:21:27tomorrow.
1:21:28We'll set a date in that ballpark between the 10th and the 16th.
1:21:34Is that all right?
1:21:36We have to leave in the 16th.
1:21:37So we'll set a date in that.
1:21:38But the 10th date is not a problem.
1:21:41It has to be in Congress.
1:21:44But I don't know about it.
1:21:48well good stuff that's marvelous well now that seven itself will give us visibility since you're being here maybe we should get them uh on that occasion you get your top not just you get yesterday you'll probably go eight or ten wheels
1:22:18I've got a little bit special treatment, you know, a little pop or something before.
1:22:25That would be marvelous.
1:22:29That would be marvelous.
1:22:32Just marvelous.
1:22:43that you will work out something.
1:22:45I'd like to add some people to it who haven't been part of the program and who would, I think, be able to back it.
1:22:51Ways that won't be the mutual friend that you and I have, I know, would complement the other ones.
1:22:59Then, secondly, with this government help, we will be in a position to run a national advertising program, and we have developed a scheme for it.
1:23:07It's better than a half and up.
1:23:09It's there, I'm going to be candid with you.
1:23:13The reason I say that is that from this year's action appropriation and the million from next year's action in fiscal 73 is budgeted for next year.
1:23:34If I could guess at the train of your thought, I might give you an idea or two.
1:23:41the two programs that we're now mounting one to help the right to read people get off the ground which is a great program and it's one where people could really volunteer hell i thought here i really would if i did the class of patients you know the real problem is basically it's directly the blacks and to all those you know i have lord learning about me
1:24:09whether by heredity or an act on earth.
1:24:11And it's about, and it's directed also to an awful lot of people with language problems.
1:24:17I mean, Mexicans and all the rest.
1:24:19It's the most important program in the world.
1:24:21I mean, we all know that reading is the most important subject, except for a businessman, I mean, for his rhythm ticket.
1:24:27And how are you going to map out the new math that we're going to be able to read?
1:24:31Exactly.
1:24:32And then take them to a company to learn to read.
1:24:35Well, we're moving to help people get going.
1:24:38Right.
1:24:39And we're moving on an aid to the elderly program that comes out of your White House conference.
1:24:43Correct.
1:24:43To help older people stay in their own homes.
1:24:45How does that work?
1:24:47The college kids will often be the volunteers.
1:24:50That's what I mean.
1:24:53To be the volunteers.
1:24:55Through these local action centers.
1:24:57Where they could help them write and read.
1:25:03They could help them visit these older people and so forth and so on.
1:25:09They're going to be there for them.
1:25:14Well, now, the reason I brought them up is when you asked if a million and a half was enough, doing either each of those programs will cost us more than $100,000, just the staff at the time had to put into it.
1:25:30An ATW grant or contract to pick up our tab on that would release some overheads for us in a really crucial way.
1:25:39And it's a little unfair to Elliot and his associates to, you know, come to the president's desk for this, but this is something that Ray Hensley and Bob Finch and I have talked about, and we are going to approach them.
1:25:50Yeah, let me ask you, let me take it out of the way so you aren't blowing up our hearts.
1:25:58Let's try it.
1:25:59Talk to the security team.
1:26:13No.
1:26:14Yes, yes, yes.
1:26:15It did not languid.
1:26:16And because of my interest in the thing, that amount of money can easily be picked up.
1:26:30That band agency has too much anyway.
1:26:33I mean, they've got all their wasted money.
1:26:36That's a hell of a lot of money.
1:26:39That's wasted years, and it's going to be wasted.
1:26:42But you check it out.
1:26:43Now, I'm just going to write to them and say, now, this is something that I want to explore.
1:26:49And also, look at the action budget.
1:26:52The action thing is much to be desired at the moment.
1:26:59It has very, very minimal congressional support.
1:27:03And I need to ensure that it's not.
1:27:09We need to know what you really need, what you can spend.
1:27:13And also, yours has got to work, too.
1:27:16Of course, of course it does.
1:27:18But we must not allow those two programs on any of the other, any of the other right to read, they must be properly funded.
1:27:28Now, what did you say, $100,000 each?
1:27:31Actually, the one we find, too, is $114,000.
1:27:34All right.
1:27:35Well, the hell with it.
1:27:38$150,000, what's the other cost?
1:27:40I'd say we have $250,000 for the two programs.
1:27:42Could you do it?
1:27:43Get them off the ground.
1:27:44Is that very strong enough?
1:27:45Do you really believe that will do?
1:27:48In addition to what we already have budgeted, you need $250,000 for those two programs.
1:27:52For those two programs.
1:27:54They're both, you would expect to get that from ATW, correct?
1:27:57I would think so.
1:27:59Now, when I say that, I'm talking about a one-year budget, and I suppose...
1:28:15It's a good man.
1:28:18A good man.
1:28:19Solidly behind this book.
1:28:20He's a good man.
1:28:21He's behind it.
1:28:22Just tell him that it's just a personal fetish of me, and also it happens to be a personal fetish of my wife, who's in the right to read up her ears and really wants to do something.
1:28:34Just say, look, Kelly, for God's sake, find it out of that $80 million budget of yours, most of which is uncontrollable.
1:28:42All right, that's done.
1:28:43This next one's very good.
1:28:49organization quickly as I said in my letter I thought I ought to resign as of about the 1st of February from the chairmanship because I've had it about 18 months or thereabouts
1:29:14and i've got some other things that i've got to get into and uh so i thought ted and i've talked about he's talked to your people here in the white house and i know
1:29:24He'd be an excellent chairman, and we've got to find a president.
1:29:27We've been working with Mr. Malik on some possible people, and hopefully you might have somebody maybe by the middle of February or something.
1:29:42That's the thought, to secure the continuity in the program.
1:29:48Yes, sir.
1:29:49But we really need continuity on the officership part.
1:29:53There's no question about that.
1:29:55I think if you don't have it, things, you know, it takes a while to find a track or somebody's got a different.
1:30:02I think you should know that I agree to take this on part-time originally.
1:30:06Yeah, yeah.
1:30:06And it needs a full-time president in the worst way.
1:30:09Well, I think that's a good scheme.
1:30:10You're the chairman.
1:30:13You'll come into the hall.
1:30:14Yes, sir.
1:30:15I will.
1:30:15All right.
1:30:17Okay.
1:30:17And you?
1:30:19I'll be the chairman.
1:30:20I've got to go out there and earn some money someplace, too, but I'll pay attention.
1:30:23All right.
1:30:23But then the other thing is, then we try to find the president.
1:30:26Yes.
1:30:27And he must be a full-time president.
1:30:29And he should be paid, right?
1:30:30Yes, absolutely.
1:30:32But Ted's been working full-time.
1:30:33I know.
1:30:34And he's done a wonderful job with this thing.
1:30:38Yeah.
1:30:39I think it's really starting to move now that we've got the help that you've given us with these.
1:30:44Malik is a first class man.
1:30:48He is by far the best man in personnel that's ever been in this White House.
1:30:58I mean, I don't doubt that's what's going on in their back, because he always shoots at the top.
1:31:02He gets people, people that are his enemies.
1:31:05I mean, you know, Henry, we got Bill Everett, he could be the trade record.
1:31:09It's all speaking.
1:31:10Wow, see, job, job.
1:31:11Bill Everett, as you know, is one of the great, bright, yeah, one of the bright young guys, you know, as the chief executive officer of Boise Cascade, and then he came on to New York sometimes, I think.
1:31:26representative comes and does a trade representative.
1:31:29That's a hell of a thing, isn't it?
1:31:31You've got some great people.
1:31:35Pete Peterson.
1:31:38Everybody supported me for the United States Senate, too, so I suppose you told me I ought to be your trade representative.
1:31:44He is a wonderful
1:31:53But he's doing a good job.
1:31:55But that's the amount of touch.
1:31:58So many people with personnel usually say, you can't get this, you can't get that, this, that, and that.
1:32:07And they do a little look in order for whoever you can get.
1:32:12And Mallory always says, try it for the best.
1:32:16And they go down.
1:32:17And he does a terrific job of solving it.
1:32:19I don't know how he does it.
1:32:22And he's terrific with men, too.
1:32:24He's put more good women in positions.
1:32:26We're even considering a woman who's a Jew.
1:32:29For the first time in history, that is one of the members of the Council of Economic Advisers.
1:32:33Oh, really?
1:32:33You see, we've got her signed as first to last.
1:32:35We've got Edgar Solomon, who's a great international expert.
1:32:38Of course, McCracken signed back in the 60s.
1:32:41Now, if we could get a woman in there, she's a tremendous woman economist.
1:32:45That's a real break.
1:32:46Well, that'd be terrific.
1:32:46It proves, don't you agree?
1:32:48Absolutely.
1:32:49It proves as to if a woman has it.
1:32:52I believe women have other uses than government at times, but if they want to be in it, they ought to be able to go to the top.
1:33:00I think that's terrific.
1:33:02So, hope we find her.
1:33:04Good for you.
1:33:06Well, anyway, thank you very much.
1:33:08We appreciate your time.
1:33:10Congratulations on a great international concert.
1:33:13Well, it was a great thing to ask back.
1:33:16Our friend Tom did a tremendous job.
1:33:22He was strong.
1:33:25Here's the man who spoke about some of those things.
1:33:42You know where he is?
1:33:43I'm sorry, but I'm sure he is.
1:33:45Thank you very much, Mr. President.
1:33:47Well, thank you.
1:33:48Thank you for this time.
1:33:49Thank you.
1:33:50I'll see you on the 10th or 14th, like wherever it is.
1:33:52Thank you.
1:33:53Well, thank you very much.
1:33:56Oh, we've got an actor.
1:33:57Thanks a lot.
1:33:57Good to see you.
1:33:59Good to see you, Mr. President.
1:34:01Happy to see you.
1:34:01Happy to see you.
1:34:04I have taken the meeting to San Francisco to speak to the council, so that's why I'm here.
1:34:12The first major issue legislation.
1:34:40You'll want to remember, which I'm sure you do, that if we can handle our oil price legislation, we can keep it in the Banking Committee's frame of works, which is not very protectionist.
1:34:50If we start adding things to it, like the generalist preferences, or anything of that sort, and move it in ways that need us to send it to Nancy, then you've got it.
1:34:59It's got to be certain.
1:35:01So the generalist gave me a notice, let's go between.
1:35:04When Volcker, I think, believes that it ought to be submitted to
1:35:10It's very shortly after the Congress gets back.
1:35:13The argument on the other side of doing it immediately is that they'll have all these meetings with the community or not until they don't start until the 14th of January.
1:35:23You know how important it is on agriculture to get some trade stuff in the package.
1:35:29And my own view on this is... What does Connolly feel on that?
1:35:32Does he feel we should delay?
1:35:35He's always said we can't get the price to go unless we get the trade.
1:35:38Unless we get the trade.
1:35:39Well, he knows how different he says that.
1:35:43Right.
1:35:44My guess is, and I haven't talked to John after the meeting today, but John's position would be we've got to get something on the agriculture side, just politically, and that means we wait a couple of weeks.
1:35:54We ought to wait for it.
1:35:57But there is this other point of view that we've got to capture them all now and get in there right after Congress comes back.
1:36:04But a few weeks might buy a fair amount of time.
1:36:06Are we going to get to anything?
1:36:08I don't know.
1:36:10Well, we've got a better deal on citrus than we had before.
1:36:13We've got already a long list around tobacco.
1:36:16The cry-hard crunch, which is for the Midwestern states, is on hearings and that's the thing that's going to take everybody's working, and he's working hard on that.
1:36:25Well, maybe it's better to keep the heat on.
1:36:27Well, that would have been my view.
1:36:28The only difficulty that I see with that is I don't want to create another international crisis.
1:36:33That's absolutely fair to say.
1:36:35Congress will not act, you know, because it isn't going to happen.
1:36:46The other thing we can do is orchestrate the committees you see have got pressure on for trade items too.
1:36:52Let's see, let's see how we can get there.
1:37:01First of all, you buy a little time.
1:37:05You don't, I wouldn't put it in the week of the evening in any event.
1:37:08That's our excuse to say, well, we're going to have, I'd say the union is going to be the 20th.
1:37:13And so that gets you through that week, and that brings you over to the 24th.
1:37:19And so about the 24th, they have to put up a bill, and then they've got to have hearings, and they've got to have debate, and debate, and so forth and so on.
1:37:33I think maybe the thing to do is to filibuster rather than to delay putting it in.
1:37:44I think that's the thing.
1:37:45What I would like to do, I'm going to see Congress in California, but in the meantime, you call that back to this meeting.
1:37:54That's sort of my feeling as to what we ought to do, but I'd like to know what his strategy is.
1:37:59My thing would be, Monday well, we'll take their input too.
1:38:04You see what I mean?
1:38:06I think we can filibuster and get them to accomplish what we want to accomplish.
1:38:18But you call him a building manufacturer, if you will, if you like what I ask.
1:38:22On trade legislation, that's what we're on, the gold price.
1:38:26Virtually everybody feels we have to wait until later, April, May, June, May.
1:38:32The reasons are it's false.
1:38:33I'm going to talk about the reasons we've talked about and the reasons we've not talked about.
1:38:37The reasons we've talked about.
1:38:39You've got an OECD trade group, you know, reports in May of a lot of line areas of negotiation.
1:38:45You can make a line out of employment here, as we used to say.
1:38:48Congress wants to be consulted, you know, on the kind of authority you should put in.
1:38:53Everything's in that way.
1:38:54And you say there are things going on now that will determine the outcome of the negotiating authority you want, and you're waiting for the actuals of this to be provided by your city.
1:39:06All right.
1:39:10Secondly, you have a little time to discuss the effects of this exchange rate and some of this trade stuff.
1:39:14Now, normally, that takes a couple of years, but you can use that as a little pinnacle.
1:39:19Third, you've got priorities you want to remember.
1:39:23You've got revenue sharing.
1:39:25You've got pension money.
1:39:26You've got health budgets.
1:39:27You don't want to get this in our head.
1:39:30Excellent.
1:39:31Excellent.
1:39:32Excellent.
1:39:33Now, all ways and means.
1:39:34All ways and means.
1:39:35I'll set them next.
1:39:37Now, there's some gutsy political reasons you may want to remember.
1:39:41First, keep in mind that Wilbur has got this fellow Burke on his committee.
1:39:48Burke is the author of the Harty-Burke bill, which is this awful labor bill.
1:39:54Burke is either Wilbur's campaign manager or his finance manager.
1:40:00Now, I don't know that you're going to accept, I'm sounding cynical, but I know that you're going to accept this.
1:40:05I hear you.
1:40:06No, I don't know what needs to happen.
1:40:08There's a beautiful mousetrap opportunity here, and once you're over it, it goes to the laborers.
1:40:14Well, let me tell you what I think.
1:40:18There is a chance of a snowball in Hamilton Road, if I'm right, for any great legislation this session.
1:40:25There isn't because they're going to foul the damn stuff up with all sorts of protections or vices.
1:40:32So what I want to do, though, and this is an area where you've got to play, you, you, I'm speaking to you first, you've got to play up.
1:40:41Well, I think what we really have to do is speak to different voices.
1:40:45Maybe we'll have rockets, and the beasts are out there eating the ground up, or there's a better trade line than any.
1:40:52But you, you see, speaking for the business community, you've got to serve before it, but also in the same hand.
1:41:00On the other side, you've got to be on the other side, too.
1:41:04And then, of course, you've got a colleague over here who's a goddamn tough on the trade thing.
1:41:09He wonders about it.
1:41:11Now, that's the political opinion that I see.
1:41:13I think what has to happen is that, and I can say that, all I can say is to say the pious thing, the loneliest thing that I will say once you're on the floor, but it's a congressional problem.
1:41:25But I think as far as the public statements, you, Rogers, and Collins, and of course, then Stein, the counsel, you treat particularly
1:41:34sort of work out a little scheme where you just confuse the hell out of the arm, but recognize nothing can or must happen this year.
1:41:42It really can't.
1:41:43Or you agree with that.
1:41:44It'd be a nightmare.
1:41:46If we were to get Nostra from a lot of September up to October.
1:41:50But I do think, on the other hand, it would be very good for us for our credibility in Europe and the rest, and also for our credibility here at home that we're not a bunch of man-protectionists.
1:41:59And also, I believe that in the law I don't.
1:42:03I just don't believe that in the Charter.
1:42:12He has gone out on a psychological limb here with these generalized preferences.
1:42:17After you had your discussion on the airplane, he apparently got off of your plane and promised in January to submit it in January.
1:42:25The problem with that, of course,
1:42:28is that it gets us into this Christmas Street approach, and I've been trying to figure out how to get him off the hook.
1:42:35Well, in the meeting this morning, we got the conversation worked around how, obviously, and Bill agreed to this, we would want to consult with Congress, you know, on this matter.
1:42:45Now, I think we could use Clark in a very useful way.
1:42:48Clark, McGregor, Bill, Captain Spector, Clark.
1:42:51They all said it.
1:42:53Visualize a scenario where we send Clark up there,
1:42:57You and I give Clark some, shall we say, instructions on the answer that we want coming back.
1:43:03Clark goes over and reports to Bill that there's some pretty high risks, you know, in submitting just piecemeal legislation.
1:43:11Bill then can get off the hook, in effect, by saying to his foreign policy people that, you know, the Congressional requirement is not, is not... Well, the high risks are, if you put it in generalized preference, we're going to get quarters of the other people out of Texas.
1:43:25He still knows this.
1:43:27I think he does.
1:43:29On the public record, we've got a lot of good play out here.
1:43:34I think we've got several final requests.
1:43:36I saw the Times that hold that whole column, even when we have the volume.
1:43:41And there's a whole page inside you can see the charts and everything.
1:43:44Now, this is the kind of thing I'd be wanting to do.
1:43:48Let's you take the Hydros and the State of the Union, New America, and all this sort of thing.
1:43:56And then let some of the rest of us carry this message out to Congress and business and so forth.
1:44:01And use this year as a year of education.
1:44:08Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:44:09You would not have me talking about that.
1:44:11In the state of the Union, I think you can take the high road.
1:44:14You want a confident American.
1:44:15You want an employed American.
1:44:17You want a competitive American.
1:44:21You want this new American.
1:44:24We've talked about how that relates to... You're not going to California.
1:44:28I thought you were, but...
1:44:29But you didn't go to Japan, did you?
1:44:32You were over there.
1:44:34Now, I asked... Everly is the one I think has to be there.
1:44:41Tanaka.
1:44:41And Stan really is awesome.
1:45:29Yeah, they're good.
1:46:41Yeah, you're the captain.
1:47:14I would think it might be a good idea if this is still a game plan to get him out of here in good style in a place where he's going to be away from Jackie Anderson and some of these friends that have gotten to him.
1:47:28There's one particular chief petty officer who he served with who has loaned him $1,000 in the past and seems to have a pretty good hold on this fellow.
1:47:40He's the one that's
1:47:42telling him not to worry because he's got the upper hand with all the information he has about the Joint Chiefs of Staff participating in this.
1:47:52So, I think that's what ought to be done with it.
1:48:11So that's my recommendation.
1:48:13I guess John was talking about it.
1:48:20It is.
1:48:20I would just like to get a hold of this Anderson and hang him.
1:48:24God damn it, yes.
1:48:25Well, listen, the day after the election, win or lose, you've got to do something with the son of a bitch, don't you?
1:48:33I would.
1:48:35I did, sure.
1:48:37Statute of limitation won't have run, will it?
1:48:39It won't have run at all.
1:48:40He's guilty to sell, isn't he?
1:48:41No question about it, as much as admitting the possession and publication.
1:48:51You really deal with the bust of John Cheese too badly.
1:48:55I do, yes.
1:48:58There's one other factor I guess you're aware of, and that is that the Times has got an investigative reporting team that work on where Anderson got this stuff.
1:49:09That's one of the
1:49:11I don't believe so.
1:49:14I don't believe so.
1:49:21I don't believe that Anderson will disclose his stories.
1:49:38You see, what has happened from the ministerial point of view is that the office that he was working in has been closed.
1:49:47And so he's just reassigned to another duty.
1:49:53I don't know how Anderson could get at this without disclosing that he's his source.
1:49:57He thinks he has the upper hand with their embassy company.
1:50:04Well, what he's talking about is busting loose the two admirals who were sitting over there with him, taking this material out of channels, taking the material that didn't belong in the communication channels of the Joint Chiefs and turning it over to them.
1:50:54The office, of course, is already closed.
1:51:22So I don't know if we have any other options.
1:51:24All right.
1:51:24I think we've got to do it.
1:51:30Well, Larry will be back to John with his plan.
1:51:35And as I say, I don't think it should be punitive.
1:51:39Mr. Dagger, I had to sign something here.
1:51:43It reminded me of a program.
1:51:50Everly is a goddamn impressive fellow.
1:51:54I watched him on two meetings.
1:52:00The crazy thing is, by God, he's more buttoned down than Peterson.
1:52:09And just as articulate.
1:52:13And he's really a hell of a fellow.
1:52:17I would agree with it.
1:52:17And tough.
1:52:18He's a tough guy.
1:52:18I mean, he looks sort of like a smiley type.
1:52:22There's a lot more to that man than I realize.
1:52:26I'm not insulting about it.
1:52:30You agree?
1:52:30Yes, sir.
1:52:31From everything I know of him.
1:52:32I don't know him too well.
1:52:33Well, you've got real property, man.
1:52:35Just put that in the back of your mind.
1:52:37Yeah.
1:52:45There's a lot of pawns to move around.
1:52:49Oh, one... Well, the thing to do is first all to watch for the men that really have the difference.
1:52:56Help.
1:52:56Because, you know, when you look around for people, you're in a position to find them.
1:53:05And you want to see them under combat conditions, which makes a hell of a lot of difference in some reputation they've brought from some other place.
1:53:13That's what makes the difference.
1:53:16Just an aside on this John Connolly business.
1:53:21There has been quite a campaign that might have been calling your attention to really put a ship in John Connolly.
1:53:29I saw, not a ship, but I saw that goddamn shore city have a big fight with the White House.
1:53:34It didn't like the age or its agreement.
1:53:36That is pure bullshit.
1:53:38That part of it, I know.
1:53:40Well, it's all pure bullshit, but they've been... Who's behind the campaign?
1:53:45Preston Smith, and he's using Roy Cohen in New York.
1:53:50I talked to John about it again today.
1:53:52What I did was have the law firm get out of that lawsuit down in Texas.
1:53:59So that there's no handle upon which these people can start these crimes.
1:54:07So that when I wait, when you, we're going to be talking about another thing is Preston Smith is behind this business that Connolly is
1:54:15No, no, I was talking about the...
1:54:17There's been the Gallagher's Letter in New York, and there's been dope stories, you know, in some of the columns that we were out to get Conley, and it was being done through the law firm.
1:54:33Oh, yeah, that.
1:54:34Yeah, I saw that.
1:54:36But there's no... Incidentally, I caught it when I was in California on a trip.
1:54:50I just wanted to mention one thing to you.
1:54:58Manolo gone.
1:55:01I was going to say that Frannigan, or I guess you or somebody, has reported that Fred Eaton
1:55:13Now once, we'll take the job.
1:55:16Well, I just wanted you to know that my view is, for reasons that have nothing to do with the conflict, that he is, I don't, I agree with you, you know what I mean.
1:55:26On the other hand, on the other hand, I think that it's gotta be handled very discreetly, and I hope that you would, that you've made the check, and that we'll, you figure there's just gonna be a hell of a fight, and you think we better not do it.
1:55:40How do you think we can do it?
1:55:42Because I can easily see, maybe you don't, I can easily see that he's just the man for the job, the age and everything else.
1:55:58Yeah, he checked it out.
1:56:00And I don't know what happened.
1:56:03It is that he decided that all of a sudden he's convinced he wants to take it.
1:56:08He went on the mountaintop, thought it would be a great idea.
1:56:12But my God, initially, it isn't really quite that...
1:56:18Just because there would be a hell of a fight.
1:56:22I mean, yeah.
1:56:24And we just think that it would be, we just decided the fight's gonna be too rough and that we need somebody there now and so forth.
1:56:33Yeah.
1:56:37Yeah, yeah.
1:56:42That's right, that's right, that's right.
1:56:45And also that there are very important things going on right now, and that we need them right now.
1:56:54Yeah?
1:56:58Oh, absolutely.
1:56:59Absolutely.
1:57:00You can say that immediately afterwards.
1:57:03But I think that we have no problem at all.
1:57:05And that I think that I would like to think that also, because after that, we would hope to have a mandate.
1:57:11But that we wouldn't have these fights.
1:57:14These fights always prepare for the current election year.
1:57:16And we talk.
1:57:17You don't want to reveal the source.
1:57:20But we talk to the people we have utter confidence in.
1:57:22And it's that.
1:57:27Yes, he's a good man.
1:57:31Another one that occurred to me was the Peterson that did the trade thing.
1:57:39Oh, the UN.
1:57:40Oh, I had forgotten that.
1:57:41I had forgotten that.
1:57:47And you're sold.
1:57:48The difficulty is he's not the strongest man.
1:57:54He's a good man, because his father was a strong man.
1:57:58He's a hell of a father.
1:57:59And this guy's a sweet guy, a really wonderful guy.
1:58:06Yeah, I'm not, and I just got a, I just like a little feel, I don't know, I think Pete Odomchenko with a few tough Illinois types to see how great, how tough he really is.
1:58:16And there was one other that, did Pete mention you?
1:58:19I mentioned another name.
1:58:22Jewel?
1:58:24I forget, I forget.
1:58:26Well, Hanger Saul, I tell you, take a look at Hanger Saul, if you do that, because we could consider him something else.
1:58:33He is a very good friend of mine.
1:58:35He's a hell of a fall.
1:58:37Now, another one of ours who would be great is Galvin.
1:58:40The difficulty is that I think that John Mitchell's sitting right here, I think we want to keep him in Illinois.
1:58:46John, isn't that correct?
1:58:48Yes.
1:58:49How about, let me ask John, you know Hanger Saul?
1:58:50Yeah.
1:58:52Could he do Japan?
1:58:55I think so.
1:58:57John thinks Peter's all he can do, Japan.
1:58:59Let me just put it this way.
1:59:01You get a hold of Pete.
1:59:03Anthony will say, bring him in.
1:59:05And you look him over.
1:59:06If you think he can do it, let's go with him.
1:59:08Fair enough.
1:59:09Because he's a, well, God, let me see what kind of a company does he have.
1:59:14Who's that?
1:59:15What was the problem?
1:59:19There's no conflict of interest, and they probably don't do, I hope not, much business.
1:59:25It's a good company, though.
1:59:27Yeah.
1:59:28All right.
1:59:28Well, that'll be fine.
1:59:30Fine, fine.
1:59:31Thank you.
1:59:32But promise him something afterwards.
1:59:35Tell him that I would very much like for him to consider a post afterwards.
1:59:38He'd be good for NATO, or something like that, or something else.
1:59:55He didn't press me very well on that.
1:59:58Did you see him?
2:00:00Well, he's smart-faced, and frankly, I think it's his best days.
2:00:07It's just between us.
2:00:08Those are my reasons.
2:00:11And Bill Reed, which is Bill that I can never do either.
2:00:14Yeah, well, Freddie was pretty well on here.
2:00:18Yeah.
2:00:19Well, Morton worked on it pretty good.
2:00:25I know he got into it.
2:00:29He got part of it.
2:00:44I'd like to have a man, well I know you're sober, he's a good friend, but you sure Martin won't take it off?
2:00:54No, he's working here at home.
2:00:56Okay.
2:01:19except for our old problem with the governor and Elliot Richardson.
2:01:24And I don't want to bore you with all of it again, but John Ehrlichman decided that I'd better try and broker this, so I've been back and forth with Richardson and Reagan today.
2:01:40Richardson's getting a little persnickety about it, talking about his prerogatives under the statutes.
2:01:47and how if it were known that he was directed to do this, thus must so happen.
0:04I would very much like for him to consider a post-match.
0:09He'd be good for Taylor or something like that.
0:17Or something else.
0:22He didn't impress me very well on that.
0:27Did you see him?
0:29Well, he's smart-faced.
0:34And frankly, I think it's his best days.
0:36It's just between us.
0:37Those are my reasons.
0:40And Bill agreed.
0:41I can never believe you didn't know who the hell he was.
0:44Yeah, well, Freddie was pretty well on my ears.
0:47But he's 66.
0:48He was a baby.
0:49He looked 76.
0:49And I just thought, well, I'm going to this case.
0:53I don't know what that is.
0:55Also, he does have an almost impossible contract with every representative.
0:59A number of firms, Japanese firms, American firms, and all the hell of a great number.
1:06Well, Martin worked on it pretty good.
1:07I know he got into it.
1:11God, we've got Martin.
1:13Damn, I wish Martin had taken it.
1:15You just, you sure... Well, I'm positive.
1:17I'm positive.
1:17God, he'd be the best.
1:18Because I like Martin so much.
1:21I'd like to have a man.
1:22Well, I know you're sober.
1:23He's a good friend.
1:25But, uh, you sure Martin won't take it off?
1:27No, he's working here at home.
1:29Okay.
1:29Okay.
1:29Sure.
1:48except for our old problem with the governor and Elliot Richardson.
1:53And I don't want to bore you with all of it again, but John Ehrlichman decided that I'd better try and broker this.
2:03So I've been back and forth with Richardson and Reagan today.
2:09Richardson's getting a little persnickety about it, talking about his prerogative of the statutes.
2:16and how if it were known that he was directed to do this, thus and thus and so would happen.
2:24So I will continue to try and work this thing out.
2:28Their differences are not far apart, and I think Richardson has just got to give on this, and it can be structured that way, and I'm going to switch with him.
2:37That's right.
2:39Just say the stakes are too high, and by God, he's got to give.
2:44I gave him...
2:54Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid.
2:56Yeah, 31 days.
2:56I told, I just told Shultz to call him.
2:59I told him that I knew what Richardson wanted, so we gave him that.
3:04But God damn it, he's got to make the deal with Reagan and get off and just do it.
3:10That's all we've got.
3:11To say we've got a hell of a problem out there, but he's, and I can put it in this way, I can say, oh yeah, let me talk some coal politics with you.
3:19We've got these right-wing coups in Asheboro.
3:21out there.
3:22That's what I've been doing.
3:23This thing, and you'll learn, the highest authority, unimpeachable sources, that Reagan, they jumped traces.
3:31You know, they said, you might want to use this.
3:35Not to jump, you wouldn't come out.
3:37But he just dragged his feet, and it could have a devastating effect.
3:41He was all set to hold a press conference today to blast the hell out of the administration until I bumped into him.
3:47I bet he got lunch in there and got him off the wicket.
3:50Great.
3:51Yeah.
3:52On the welfare.
3:52On the welfare.
3:53Yeah.
3:53No, not the welfare.
3:54All the welfare.
3:55Yeah.
3:55Not that welfare.
3:56This is his hang-up.
3:57He just got to get rid of the subject.
3:59Okay.
4:00Done.
4:00All right.
4:01All right.
4:02But there may be some plaque come back out of region.
4:04It's got to be done because just say that, Elliot, we need this thing that leads to crisis, and I hate to do it, but Jesus just do it and do it as low-key as possible and get it done.
4:14That's all there is to it.
4:18and all the rest of it.
4:19Boy, we've also got an election to win.
4:23Well, he should understand that, but he's good.
4:26pushed by Reagan so that he's got his dander up in it.
4:29Reagan, of course, is a mainland bastard on this, too.
4:31He's mean and also selfish.
4:34Huh?
4:34Selfish, just like he was in the OEO legal service.
4:38He's mean and selfish, single-minded, and frankly, you talk to him, he doesn't give one goddamn thing.
4:46He doesn't.
4:46And he's bad.
4:48And he doesn't tell you how you feel about him.
4:50And boy, there'll be a time when you won't have to deal with him, I hope.
4:56I would hope that that would... No, really, I mean, I don't think he's... You've got to save a Rockefeller.
5:01He fights like a son of a bitch.
5:04But Rockefeller eventually makes a deal, doesn't he?
5:06He's reasonable.
5:07I've been helping him in the last two days to put one together, and I think we have.
5:11We're getting the conservatives to support Nelson Rockefeller's tax package, and you don't think that's been quite a job.
5:17I think it should be put together.
8:10Is Ray Christon going to stay here?
8:11Is he going out with him?
8:13He'll be here for now.
8:15Well, because he's working on it.
8:16He may be coming out on Wednesday or something.
8:18He'll be here for the rest of the day.
8:19We should have those drafts later today or the first thing in the morning.
8:24He's working on it with his group.
8:27As John Connolly has thoroughly invented, we're supporting him on that damn thing.
8:32Yes.
8:33Now, all the way, golly, I'm crushing the saints of Crook.
8:37And he's got some of the worst possible crooked investigators trying to dig up the stories and sell them.
8:45Well, they even sent one of them out to see the Los Angeles Times, but apparently they didn't print any of it.
8:48Why do you call him that son of a bitch?
8:53Well, he's the one that's putting it out all over the dope sheets.
8:57Well, let's just make the politics stop going.
9:02Very sure, and he'll do.
9:04Preston Smith, I'm sure, feels that if he can destroy John Connolly, he can destroy Barnes.
9:08That's the gambit.
9:15Oh, God.
9:15But John, who was out playing golf in El Dorado, didn't seem to be worried about it at all.
9:23How did he sound to you today?
9:26I never got it.
9:28He just said, oh, hell, let them dig.
9:30They can go all over any place.
9:32And he said, I've got nothing to hide sort of approach to it.
9:35I hope that's so.
9:38Well, anyway, if they come out with grace and truth, that's what you ought to do.
9:46Well, the fact that the law firm has dropped that litigation ban there removes the real case for tying in
9:56the Attorney General and the President and so forth to go around the back door trying to smite Conley.
10:03And so they'll have to be doing it on their own now without a lot of guys.
10:11Separacy is going to be there, as I understand now.
10:16In California?
10:17Yes.
10:20Goddamn, they set it up there today, and everybody's there because Tanaka's going to be there.
10:24And he's the trade representative.
10:26No sir, Stans is there because Tanaka's there.
10:29Well, Sands isn't supposed to be there.
10:31Well, Henry said, you know, he doesn't know his ass first base about the trade negotiations.
10:37The guy that's negotiating the trade is not Sands, who, you know, basically he's a wonderful man, but cannot negotiate on trade.
10:45You know, he screwed it up twice.
10:48Everly is the one that they're negotiating with in the trade box.
10:52So he's got to be there negotiating.
10:56We can't have him to dinner.
10:59So I don't know.
11:01We'll never be able to knock Sands out.
11:05They've already told him he's in.
11:08Oh, well, we can't hurt Sands.
11:09He wants us to have everybody sit in, too, but have Sands at the dinner.
11:14Sands doesn't come to the dinner, but I don't know where in the hell you're going to put... Because Tanaka comes to the dinner.
11:24Well, Henry went back and forth on it and came up with Sands as the guy that should be there, not Everly.
11:28Tanaka is the cabinet minister.
11:30Well, of course, of course, of course.
11:32Well, Everly isn't going to be with Sands.
11:34He's going to have Tanaka there.
11:36And then you've got to find a place for Kennedy there, too.
11:40You cannot have him not there.
11:44But if you can, I think maybe we can.
11:46That's what we've got to try.
11:52I heard it'd be pretty hard, Ken.
11:54I heard it for Christ's sake.
11:56I said it would be hard.
12:02Well, let's...
12:03Anyway, we can skip... Go ahead.
12:06Skip the dinner.
12:08No, no, no.
12:09Skip one.
12:09There's two of them.
12:12Go ahead.
13:47In Indiana, I think the deal is made where Mr. Schneider is coming out, if we can find him a job, and I will get at Malik in connection with that.
13:54I have a job.
13:57Is he a lawyer?
14:00No, I don't believe he is.
14:04He's a pretty capable follower.
14:06I think John Snyder would be a pretty good bureaucrat if you put him in some place after all he was State Treasurer for years.
14:13Right.
14:14Pretty good follower.
14:15We can work it out.
14:17Should have had him.
14:18Probably would have been a better candidate than the other ones.
14:21He would be Deputy Secretary of Defense.
14:23We don't have one of those, right?
14:28All right.
14:29I'm not serious, John.
14:31He's the Deputy Secretary of Defense.
14:34Undersecretary of Defense.
14:39What's the name of this fellow that the conservatives have been pushing from Texas?
14:42Is it Clements?
14:44Clements.
14:44Bill Clements.
14:45Bill Clements.
14:47Somebody looked at him.
14:49He'd have all the usual problems.
14:53Made problems.
14:54He has money.
14:55Anybody with money or confidence would qualify for that job.
15:00Unless he wants to do well for a factory that had more money than Clinton.
15:07Pretty hard to give up everything the last year.
15:11For a year, yeah.
15:12He might do it.
15:13Maybe it must be pushing Seaman.
15:16I don't know.
15:18Kind of off the scene.
15:21Well, I think Seaman will again corrode our conservative support.
15:27He's one of the wizards, isn't he?
15:30Well, he was there long enough to be one of them.
15:32Well, yes, he's part of that establishment of intellectual, much-aided masters.
15:37He was massive.
15:38Well, I know, but he's still the same kind.
15:41He says, yeah, I can imagine.
15:42You've seen him around, haven't you?
15:44Yeah, he's not one of our type of persons.
15:47That's why I wanted that job.
15:51Well, the last analysis was conservative.
15:57the wing, you get down to defense and welfare.
16:00And the defense spot over there is quite important, because somebody's going to find out that we haven't been expending money at the rate of our authorizations in the national security interest.
16:15And this is going to cause some problems.
16:19So he came up with the wild card.
16:20How would you like to put Barry Goldwater in there and make him secretary?
16:27later next year.
16:31Well, God knows you can't control Perry Kilgore.
16:35Yeah.
16:36It'd scare the hell out of people.
16:39It'd be a deal.
16:41If it were John Power, I'd say yes.
16:44But you can't.
16:46Well, that's an administrative post to Kilgore.
16:51Well, in addition to that, of course, they've got that legislation up there, which apparently is going to pass, where they split up that undersecretary's job.
17:00That's right.
17:01And you have the problem with the water problem, but you have to get a special act to do it.
17:09What about George Bush?
17:15He'd be damn good.
17:20He's that good.
17:21He's loyal.
17:26The U.N. is a pain in the ass anyway.
17:28He likes it and does it well, but I don't think he'd want the defense.
17:32I don't think he'd take it.
17:33He'd take it if he thought he was going to do something else later.
17:41So the U.N. job has a hell of a lot more.
17:44It isn't as important, but it has more prestige.
17:53Do you run Peter Flanagan by the present?
17:56Is that your production?
17:59Fine, if you get it confirmed.
18:00Do you think we could?
18:03Or do you think Pete thinks we could?
18:05Pete thinks we could.
18:06I don't know.
18:07I haven't taken a reading on it.
18:08Pete says that he's now dealing with all these people on the Hill, and they just love him to death and all that.
18:13He's probably not there with Tidings.
18:15Tidings is gone.
18:16Pete sold his vessel, so...
18:27Well, he'd be a goddamn good man.
18:31Total loyalist.
18:34And he wants the job.
18:37Try it.
18:38He'd lose it here.
18:40I know, but we could, we can lose it here.
18:43Well, for that job, for that job, I could lose it.
18:46Peter's argument is that hell, all of my legislative programs have been put together.
18:51But his new thing would be the Peterson job.
18:55Well, I hope that, thanks.
18:57Well, that's got to be downgraded, doesn't it?
18:59Sure.
19:00Weren't you going to downgrade that?
19:02Yeah.
19:03In the past, it's a fairly good job, or either that.
19:11What really ought to happen is you ought to have Peterson continue to be active over his commerce.
19:15I wish we had the promising commerce.
19:20I'd give it to Helen Benedict and a woman in the cabin.
19:28That's what she wants to see me about, huh?
19:36Gee, that's a toughie.
19:37Did you ever hear that woman swear?
19:40No question about it.
19:43No question about it.
19:56What's this?
19:56You didn't see that?
19:58Martha is moving into the, did they get this list of the Gallup, the 10 most admired women in the country?
20:05Martha's now number eight in the world.
20:10When did this come out?
20:12A couple of days ago.
20:13Did this come out?
20:14Yeah, it came out Friday.
20:15It's been printed in magazines this week.
20:17Oh, is it?
20:19No, that's true.
20:20Yeah.
20:21Go all the colors.
20:23She replaced Ethel Kennedy.
20:24Ethel dropped out the list and Martha Mitchell came on down.
20:27That will make her doubly happy.
20:29Doubly difficult.
20:30That's right.
20:33Well, anyway, right ahead of Shirley Chisholm.
20:40Shirley Chisholm's number 10.
20:44I'm glad she's ahead of Shirley Chisholm, because last year when they took all the pictures to put her on the front page of Life or Time or some such thing, and then Angela Davis bumped her, I thought she was going to tear the magazine apart.
21:01Well, I wonder if you're serious about Peter Flanagan, that that shouldn't be checked out.
21:13Why don't we check it out?
21:14The confirmation aspect of it.
21:16Check it with Laird?
21:19Sam?
21:23I think Peter can handle that job, and I think he'd be a good guy over there both.
21:31for this crunched year to look after the store and look after the secretary.
21:37Look after the secretary.
21:39And also, he'd be one hell of a good buy if a guy in Henry's Watson meetings, you know, where Andy, you know, has all these, you know, manipulates.
21:50And Henry needs somebody to watch him in there.
21:52He really does.
21:53He'll stand up for him.
21:54And Pete would, wouldn't he?
21:56Well, what good is it to stand up to Henry in a Western game?
22:00Spatter over the wall.
22:02He ends the meeting with what he sends up to him.
22:04Because he ends the meeting, yeah.
22:06But Henry, Pete would be good with it, dealing with it, outside, outside.
22:13I would think that that aspect of it would be good, because it'll...
22:18Listen, Pete would be good, just try it.
22:20Yeah.
22:21I agree perfectly well with him.
22:22But I just don't feel we want a hell of a confirmation.
22:26A little one I don't want.
22:27Not at all.
22:29You can't tell what they might find that they'd like to take him on.
22:37I don't think there's tidings tanking him.
22:56And as I just said to John, we really missed a bet on Eric that we met in that stinking trade shop, although that's important here as well, but he's a first-class property.
23:08Malak is a genius at finding people.
23:11He doesn't take that damn job.
23:13Alex does a hell of a job.
23:15He's getting good people.
23:16Well, everybody's out of his mind to take that same job.
23:20It's a lousy job.
23:22He's taking it.
23:23He's doing it.
23:23He's just terrific.
23:24He could move into the theater sometime.
23:28Yes, he's that good.
23:30Oh, perfect.
23:32Perfect.
23:33you would be perfect for it, and then leave, and then I wouldn't still continue to be done.
23:37Well, there's one thing we argue about, but it ought to be on one guy, and there probably shouldn't be any, because he hasn't testified, but he was working with that, so he could testify to the charity director, and not testify to the assistant director.
23:49Oh, well, anyway, the special care director's not a big deal.
23:52He can start a supervisor, or some other jackass, or whatever.
23:55That's, so that's a terrible thing to do, so let's go.
23:59I mean, plans will go, John.
24:01Well, it's the best I've thought of.
24:04And go to McGregor right away and say, now, we need to try to stop him.
24:11He's the man I want.
24:12I don't believe he ought to take it up with him at this point.
24:17Don't you agree?
24:20How does Flanagan and Kistier get along over here?
24:24It depends.
24:25I don't think they've ever had to go.
24:28They haven't had any problems.
24:29They don't really deal with each other.
24:34I think he's important.
24:35And then before Peter or other things, like he was sworn for the same job.
24:40He's the man you can trust.
24:42And Henry figures that he can handle it.
24:44He knows he can trust Peter and would figure he can handle it.
24:48That's right.
24:49Okay, done.
24:50Sure, he's right.
24:52He's not right.
24:53He's not right at all.
24:56Kissinger may be able to handle Blanton.
24:58That's why it is.
25:00The reason we need Blanton there is he's abrasive and tough, and that's the kind of a man Henry needs around him now.
25:06He really does need somebody that just won't roll over and play dead.
25:12I'd like to take a couple of minutes on this unhappy subject of Dr. Kissinger.
25:18I had breakfast with him this morning.
25:21This was approached on a political basis.
25:24This is the new approach.
25:29The Kissinger-Rogers business.
25:33The State Department.
25:36In the past, Mr. President, I haven't been really as concerned about it as I really am now.
25:43Incidentally, when I had that, when Jerry Smith came in to go off to his stand at the Epstein, I told Rodgers to come over, too, because I thought he was going to be here.
25:59And he violently objected.
26:01He said, well, Rodgers is trying to take credit for solving it.
26:09That's, that's, that's, that's their role, really.
26:12Rogers had Peter, he asked Peter, you've got to goddamn well at least know what I'm telling Smith, because Smith's going to go right back over and tell him what he may have told him wrong.
26:24But anyway, so, that was right after you had breakfast?
26:26That's correct, and he was, I heard, but, and he makes the point, which is valid.
26:37to be addressed, and he uses again the illustration of the Pakistan-Indian situation, where you had one program that came out of the White House, as he claims, Rogers and Peterson and some of the rest of them were over there, given backgrounders to show how the administration screwed up the Indian-Pakistan situation, and points out that this, of course, is deleterious to your foreign policy.
27:07and that it just gives fuel to the Democrats that are going to start cutting this.
27:14Now, you also have Henry at a point where he says that he is no longer going to take this being cut to pieces by the people in the State Department, and he is going to the leaking operation in his self-defense.
27:35And then, of course, he fuzzes it in with some rationalizations to the point that if they follow the back channels and get the Middle East screwed up again without advising you and Henry, you're not going to be able to pull off the Middle East in Moscow.
27:54And if they don't stop dealing with debris and so forth, they're going to screw up the
28:05to the summit in Moscow.
28:10Well, that's not the way you put it to me.
28:13He's moving around.
28:14He's covering all of us.
28:15He hit John.
28:15All right.
28:15It was exactly the same thing.
28:17He hit John.
28:18Go ahead, John.
28:19This is basically it, Mr. President.
28:22I don't want to bore you.
28:23But he didn't come in.
28:24What is it?
28:25This has only been three weeks yet.
28:27He didn't come in.
28:30But the tri-weekly demands he resign.
28:35Well, I think we have plenty of gold.
28:36We may have.
28:36We've got a situation here where Henry is painting himself without realizing it.
29:24Three more.
29:24I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:24Three more.
29:24I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:25I, I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:27I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:28I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:28I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:29I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:30I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know a safe.
29:30I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I
29:52The real man of his life.
29:52His concern about what happened.
29:53His realization, I think, more than anything else, of what happened.
29:55He blew it.
29:55Coming back from the English University.
29:56He blew it back to the press.
29:56And maybe some students say that he could have made it.
29:57He says, I'm not going to touch that.
29:58And I ain't saying that.
30:23And then, of course, finding that every time he came back to China, grazed by anybody, anytime, anyplace, he dug a wall of his own city.
30:36Henry was not, believe me, one bit concerned about the owner.
30:48His only reason was in relationship to the plan.
30:50And that affected the state.
30:51And then, when the last, when the last of his colleagues came home, they said, well, they said, we know that's where they came from.
30:56He told me, David Williams, you know, what state is in the building right now?
31:09But the writers are not going to take stuff from the state and build it on the Anderson Scott buildings.
31:11That's his line.
31:11It isn't true, though, is it?
31:12No.
31:12Dave Young checked out by Keith today, Anderson Scott, and it's still out of the same cycle.
31:14Yeah.
31:14And he says that they're building on the same cycle.
31:15Having said all that, I mean, I realize that there are two sides.
31:16You know what I do about the Rockers.
31:38And, uh, we can go in that easy way.
31:42And, uh, they both are, are, are active in the field in that way.
31:43But, uh, we've got too much.
31:43Let's focus on... We've got a media problem on it now, on, on just that thing.
31:45The New York Times has got a task force doing this, one of their big super reports, you know, on how did the, uh, South Asian men come out and go into the apartment and say, what is a true story?
31:49And there's, there's, there's stories, and everyone's in trouble.
31:50So...
32:09They approached Bill Rogers and said they wanted to interview him and the key people at the State Department to get any information.
32:11And Bill Rogers said, no, and ordered his people to stay.
32:12No, he said, we will not cooperate with the New York Times on such a story.
32:14So then Henry said, yes, he will.
32:15No, he's not going to Rockwell, but he is going to.
32:29John called me and said he didn't want Henry to talk to the New York Times because the Times is also trying to do a story about how did Jack Anderson get the information for his comics.
32:33And John wrote that he doesn't want Henry to talk to the Times about the subject he tried.
32:34And Henry said to me on that, I won't talk to them about that, but I will talk to them on Salvation.
32:36And I said, you can't separate it, but Jack Anderson's subject is Salvation.
32:52This is about to get into the whole purpose of Henry's talking sometimes about consolidation.
32:55You have to realize, John, this is self-justification, right?
32:56Do you agree or not?
32:56Well, that's Henry's initiative that comes out of consolidation from now on.
33:11The people don't give a damn about this.
33:12But it's about his self-destruction for Henry because he wants to get back at what the State Department leaked out to Martin Kalb and the rest of them.
33:35So Bill came in to see me this morning and said, I'm concerned about this thing.
33:37He said, I don't know what I should do.
33:38I've now found, after I've issued orders that we're not talking to you at times, I've found that Henry's willing to talk to you.
33:40He said, I can't keep our people locked up if the kids are just going to go off and talk to them.
33:42So I'll go back and thank you.
33:43But that, you ought to get to work, Henry.
33:44All right, let's see what else I can do.
34:01Well, his proposals are, as I just mentioned, are you talking about the interstate and so forth?
34:06He, of course, wants to defend himself, but in the protection of your foreign policy, he feels that you have to have two things.
34:14Number one, that they not go ahead and screw up the Middle East any further.
34:24and that they not move without the clearance over here with you, and that the same with the Brennan and Moscow, that there be no communications that are not cleared through this particular office, so that those initiatives are not screwed up before you ever get there.
34:31That's really his two basic factors.
34:32My question to Henry was, what the hell do you expect the President to do all about this?
34:34And he said, going back to his interest of the national security,
34:53national interest and the political interest and all the rest of it, which he justifies just talking to me with that approach.
34:56But these are the things that you need to protect yourself against the State Department in your upcoming initiatives.
35:09Well, I think he's right on that.
35:09There's no merit for any of you meeting separately and without communication with any of those people.
35:11And that's what... Well, particularly not in these... What do you mean?
35:13Well, Bill has his separate meetings with Jeffrey.
35:14He won't tell Henry before him that he's doing it either.
35:15And he won't tell Henry afterwards what he talked about.
35:16And if he doesn't tell him, all right, the other side will get it.
35:17And that's...
35:17I think...
35:36Well, except Henry does tell you.
35:37That's his argument.
35:37And I'm inclined to agree with Henry that the State Department is perfectly capable of screwing up the Middle East so that you won't be able to work it out in Moscow.
35:58And then screwing up your approach.
35:59I'm always on that.
36:00And I'm always to the right.
36:00You should tell me what the hell he's got to talk to Green about.
36:02I must say that he doesn't talk to Green about anything that matters.
36:03No, but Henry can see that.
36:04He's dusting Henry's dusters apparently.
36:15The president knows where the power is.
36:16You see any?
36:16He was convinced Rogers should really work with you over the weekend.
36:17I said, well, yes.
36:18I thought the same Rogers.
36:18Doesn't say that we're talking.
36:19He said, yes, he flew up on the plane.
36:20I found out Rogers changed his plane and flew up on the plane with him.
36:21I said, that's right.
36:21The president spent 10 minutes with him with J. Edgar Hoover and a goddamn birthday cake.
36:23How much he would even have done during that?
36:37But he's just pathological.
36:38That's where he really is.
36:39And I saw Rogers, I saw Rogers at dinner with, what was his name?
36:40J. Edgar Hoover.
36:41J. Edgar Hoover.
36:41And he'd be remodeled, he'd be remodeled, and we saw a movie.
36:54We didn't talk about a goddamn thing.
36:55He said, Mr. Rogers, why don't you walk in the corner and get all these things settled and all this stuff.
36:57His point on that still is basically right.
36:58Now, his point is not basically right, but when I'm in here and harassed me every goddamn living day about this juvenile attitude of his.
37:13He asked me, and he was saying, he said, tell me frankly, has the president lost confidence in him?
37:15Because I have convinced that he has.
37:16I said, no, he hasn't, Henry, but the president does get, as anybody would, fed up with the constant talking that he gives.
37:18And he said, I know, that's a problem with me.
37:19He said, but that's my nature.
37:20And he said, it's a weakness that I have, and it's the way I deal.
37:21He said, all right.
37:38It's the fact that you don't see this.
37:41It's so heavy, John.
37:43You know, the land is, I want it, I want it, it's mine.
37:46You know the worst thing that happened?
37:47Oh, I mean, I know all this stuff.
37:49I know the, I knew the Indian blood.
37:52Let me tell you, John.
37:54When he makes that boo-boo on the phone, I know it better than anybody else.
37:56I have never mentioned it.
37:56He's talked to me about it at least 30 times, saying it was really the right thing to do.
37:58And I know that he knows it.
37:59He truly doesn't make boobers.
38:00The thing that thoroughly frustrates him is you do it.
38:17I love it!
38:17Oh!
38:40Bill moves unilaterally and refuses to tell.
38:41Now, he has no objection to Bill having responsibility for an area or a project or something like that.
38:43Maybe he will deal through Henry so that he knows what he's doing.
38:45And I think he's probably wrong.
38:55He is rewriting history.
38:55I think he is.
38:56For Christ's sakes, we did the whole thing here.
38:57And he knows God.
38:57Well, it would be a crisis on him about two or three months ago.
38:59What the hell did Bill do three months ago?
39:00Henry Kissinger, the last summer, Henry Kissinger wrote the talking paper.
39:01He himself, when I met Mrs. Johnson, I was a guy who met Mrs. Francis and didn't read a goddamn song.
39:19And he says, yeah, but we don't want to give her an excuse.
39:20And you wrote about that.
39:21He knows that.
39:21He's been, he was wrong.
39:21And I asked him, yeah, but you, you know, broke up.
39:22He says, you didn't act strong enough.
39:23And I said, what did the president fail to do that you broke up?
39:24He said, that wasn't the problem.
39:25He said, I failed to tell him.
39:34He also, you know, on that, on the salvation of his death, wrong.
39:35Now his other thing, his other complaint is, and this is purely a personal one, is that he is highly insulted by the fact that you have made an effort to be nice to him.
39:53He says what he's doing there is he does take me seriously.
39:55He thinks this is a petty, personal thing that can be handled by personal, you know, being nice to me and giving me follow-up while making sure everything's all right, giving me time off, and having Nelson Rockefeller call me and tell me everything's okay, and all that kind of thing.
40:01He said that makes it worse, not better, because that papers over the substance with, you know, he wants to come in
40:24Well, he has done that from time immemorial, but my concern is that he may be at a point, at the breaking point.
40:38If you lost Kissinger vis-a-vis the State Department, then again, you're at a break.
40:45Well, then again, you're toxic.
40:48Secondly, that's the problem.
40:55Secondly, I'm concerned that Kissinger may take how it has derived
41:05all of the State Department.
41:05Mr. Fitzgerald will admit that a lot of this is gunned down the balls, not Phil personally, but that Phil knows about it.
41:08He could shut it off.
41:08We may get into an inter-scene warfare here.
41:09I heard a lot of what Phil doesn't know about it.
41:10There was something she said about that.
41:11That was not a shame.
41:11Phil, no matter whether he could turn to anyone, he could build all the leaves out of his shop.
41:14There are leaves out of his shop.
41:29Yes, that's right.
41:30He did not really.
41:30Either they came over.
41:31He was very absurd and everything about it.
41:32All the rest of it.
41:32Not about the owner.
41:33That didn't bother him.
41:34I mean, he was really rather sorry to hear it.
41:35Because it wasn't a safe environment.
41:56Well, he had a little different approach to it when I got after him this morning.
42:03You still want to fire him?
42:04I want to get rid of everybody because I've been taken and violated their oaths and they're crooked and so forth and so on.
42:10I don't know what the answer is, Mr. President, except it seems to me that for the future you might give some consideration
42:24in connection with your Moscow trip, restructuring the channels of the activities of the State Department.
42:26I think that might be in your own interest.
42:27Is that what Henry is for, when you said that?
42:28What does he want to get Rogers to do with that stuff?
42:29He doesn't want to get Rogers to do anything.
42:30He wants Rogers to work with everybody.
42:31He doesn't want separate projects.
42:32He wants everybody involved and determined.
42:33On the same planet, he doesn't want to tell Rogers what he's doing.
42:51And, of course, he makes the argument that whether it's in the Middle East or anything else going to Moscow, that they could screw it up.
42:59It's quite possible they could.
43:01I've read the record on the Middle East, and the State Department just fall relapse in their memorandum and so forth.
43:15Well, other than that, this Cisco is just capable of lying, straight up.
43:20You get erroneous information in here.
43:23And, uh, so there is some justification.
43:28I know.
43:28Well, huh?
43:29You said what you do, but let me make one suggestion.
43:34I think that one factor that's been missing in this all the way through has been direct tenure with Bill Rogers.
43:44I don't think Henry's ever really been candid with him.
43:46And I don't think you have, because I think you keep trying to keep the thing, you know, from focusing into a competition.
43:50It's perfectly proper.
43:51I suggest you leave this point.
43:53In addition to that, Bob, there's a hell of a lot of things that the president can't do candidly.
43:56That's right.
43:56He can't do it.
44:10Bill, on the other hand, when Bill has been told anything directly, he's got instructions that he knows are valid.
44:12To my knowledge, he has never violated, and he has never put, he has never leaked anything or told anybody in the department anything that he was supposed not to tell them.
44:15He's known some of the most sensitive notes ahead of time and handled them well.
44:17He has power and strength.
44:17But if he can't be with us, at least he keeps his mouth shut.
44:39For instance, on Cambodia, I don't think you can fall, you can fall under, as Henry does for not standing up, but you can't fall under leave or undercut, because I don't believe he did.
44:43Well, he's been hurt for a couple days, and he thought it was going to go all right, but he has to die.
44:45And he's been very good at the bombing and all that stuff.
44:46That's right.
44:46And he wants to be, hypothetically, he wants to be helped.
44:47He wants to be helped.
44:48Partly because he wants us to play his own glorification.
44:49Well, he doesn't want to lose.
44:50That's right.
44:50That's right.
44:50He doesn't want to be able to lose inside.
45:08I, what I suggest, I think, I think maybe you can handle it alone, or I think maybe you and I can handle it together.
45:11I can't do it alone.
45:11I think you and I, or you or I, or some person or a combination of people, other than Henry and other than the President,
45:28ought to sit down with Bill on a very, very strategic basis and say, there's been a lot of stuff in the past.
45:32Maybe there have been some problems.
45:33There have been reasons for them.
45:34Let's try and sweep that out.
45:35And we get too much at stake now.
45:36I think it has to be tied.
45:49They told me that the world was involved and personalities were going to destroy it.
45:50Now what the hell can we do about it?
45:51We can't change the personality.
45:52We've got to change the personality.
45:52We've got to keep this up.
45:53People want to get in that business.
45:54We've got to get them around the center.
46:11And the officer said, well, you've got to go over to Moscow and negotiate that.
46:13He said, no, you can't do that.
46:14He said, well, that won't work.
46:14And he's not going either.
46:15And on the other hand, we have a problem with memory level with John.
46:16We have to realize this.
46:17He believes.
46:17He believes quite well.
46:42Bill Rogers is Paul, who is totally self-centered, and who seems to listen to Stuart Knapp, who is... Well, you've also frankly described Henry Kissinger.
47:04And with regard to confidence in foreign affairs,
47:35Only half wrong.
47:35The bill is smart in many ways.
47:36Henry would be well listened to, for example, in the area of public relations and foreign affairs.
47:38He's quite as smart as Henry.
47:38Henry has done so.
47:48I don't think Bill is the kind of guy that likes to sit and sweat just like he is.
47:59I'm sorry.
47:59No, he's... Because that's why.
48:01You can use Bill for what he is.
48:04Bill is this.
48:05His PR just is.
48:07That was the original point.
48:09Henry has utterly no PR.
48:11And also Bill, of course, is a great man.
48:15And as you have said, I can describe Henry in a very different way.
48:17Now, the difficulty that Henry has is, as I've heard it, he does not have Bill's balance in one sense.
48:19Bill is the married man and all that sort of thing.
48:20It's a great little self-confidence that controls a man.
48:36Henry has a very, his, his confidence is, is very strong.
48:37I don't mean his confidence, his ability.
48:38No, Henry, Henry has an inferiority complex.
48:39He has, he has, he has his insecurities.
48:40Now, for example, Bill would never, would never, I mean, have the,
49:04It was an admirable that was going to happen.
49:05There was a god damn thing we could do about it.
49:06Henry tried to do as much as we could and what we did was worth doing.
49:30What Henry ran up against there was something he didn't expect.
49:32That was a very tough Soviet war.
49:33He thought the Soviets were cooperating.
49:34They didn't cooperate.
49:50And after I met with the Soviet agriculture, which was a disgust, 24 hours of abuse, I remember the next day, and it wasn't something the Soviets were about to do.
49:53They couldn't deliver Mrs. Kahn.
49:54It ain't wanting to.
49:54This is that.
49:54But in this, but in that.
49:55So much for that.
49:55That's it.
50:12would not write a second and rewrite the whole document.
50:14And he tried to justify what he had done.
50:15Sure, everybody knows that.
50:15But he wouldn't be frank with his soul, naive, or even bad.
50:16He would regard it like stupidity.
50:29He would say, well, you can tell Bob that, well, the State Department really screwed the whole thing up, and I finally had to get in and try to save him, and so forth and so on.
50:33I thought that was just not true.
50:34That's not true about him.
50:34That was not true.
50:35And probably because it's not true, he was invented.
50:50Henry's is all related to history.
50:51History book.
50:51Bill's is all related to Tomorrow Morning Seven.
50:52Bill has no interest in the history book at all.
50:53Not at all.
50:53Doesn't even know there are any.
51:08is a whole lot more interesting than the editorial is that uh
51:31Henry takes the long view, perhaps too long, a little tertiary at times.
51:32And Bill takes a very, very tertiary view.
51:33Bill is basically supervision.
51:34Henry is sometimes either boring and profound and tries to go all the way through stuff that sometimes is interesting and sometimes not so good.
51:37The other thing is Bill has complete self-control and is totally rational.
52:00The only time I ever saw Bill lose his cool was when Scali was lecturing him out there.
52:17Uh, whereas, uh, Henry, Henry that's, Henry that's total out of self-control and is a ill mannered, bad mannered, and all the rest of it, Donald, my facility needs to be disembossed at any time.
52:21It's been so good for everybody.
52:22And, uh, that's right, we talked about it coming better under the major problem that John has got now, is that
52:42We cannot continue to have a situation where we cannot continue to have a situation where we
52:54I agree.
52:55I agree.
52:55We have got to give gas officers things to do.
52:56We've got to do it.
52:56And I got an offer from Julius saying Christ, he was having me sign every goddamn thing that was.
52:58So, I got an offer from Julius.
52:59Very, very grateful.
53:22I tried to rewrite the history of the black sand.
53:40getting into this whole deal of police and so forth, who, frankly, talk about the Pope and his predator's eye and Darth Vader and so on.
53:43And that's right.
53:43Henry is not, let me say this, if you have the choice between Rogers and Henry Xavier,
54:05Because Henry knows more than any man.
54:06Basically, Henry, deep down, is more loyal.
54:07Deep down, is more loyal.
54:08Rogers and his way is more loyal.
54:09Rogers lives lower and lower.
54:10Let Henry pass it over to you, because you and Henry are going to be together again.
54:12This would be impossible, because you'd have to work through Rogers with the State Department.
54:14Yeah, I know.
54:35I don't think he doesn't like it.
54:36He likes to go to Florida.
54:36He likes to go to California.
54:37He likes all this kind of stuff.
54:52Who the hell put him on?
54:53Yeah, he did.
54:54But he now says you're welcome to have him come.
55:13What he's really arguing there is not that he didn't like the calls.
55:35He wants to get down and have a talk about how you can kick rockers out of the government.
55:36That's what you're doing.
55:37Well, I put that to him.
55:37I put it to him, too.
55:38That was my first question.
55:38I said, okay, let's figure out how we get our roots out of here.
55:40That's obviously the only solution.
55:41He said, no, that's not a solution.
55:41You cannot get it out.
55:42He shouldn't.
55:55I would rather have Henry Kissinger rewriting Kissinger after the election than I would before the election.
56:01Oh, yeah.
56:02And the danger is that he might decide to write it before the election.
56:10He's going to resign.
56:10He's going to stop right now.
56:11He's going to announce now that he's going to leave next year.
56:12He's totally direction on that.
56:26But let me tell you this, sir.
56:27I come back to one thing.
56:27You've got to remember, very fondly, I know they want to admit he's the greatest son of God because he's Jewish and second.
56:30They're wrong on two things.
56:31But the Jewish thing is a hell of a lot to do.
56:32A hell of a lot to do, despite what he says.
56:32The other point is...
56:33I'm not convinced of that.
56:34Well, anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I buy it for the other reason.
56:35Because in our discussion in the Middle East, we...
56:55agreed to discuss the scenario, which was roll the map.
56:57I could roll the map for the election, I know.
56:58But I, uh, let me put it this way.
56:58I had a discussion with him before the 7th of July.
56:59He said right after the 7th of July, he said, uh, uh, let's see, right after the 7th of July.
57:01That wasn't even good policy.
57:23Now the other thing is that
57:53With regard to, though, the immediate problem here, Henry, is why.
57:56On Indian Pakistan, what we have to realize is that the thing was bound to come out the way that it did, and Henry
58:15is concerned because he feels that what we did failed.
58:18And he knows that he's partly the blame.
58:20He blames himself too much because I think whatever we would have done would have failed.
58:28That's what I do.
58:29And of course, I go back to the fight.
58:30I say, Henry, goddammit, don't look back.
58:31It's done.
58:32And forget it.
58:32It isn't always an issue.
58:43Well, he's worried about the history.
58:45He said, we had so many good things going, we've done this and that, and now they speak the perfect spirit.
58:51But Bob, he is rewriting industry and history, and in fact, you know that goddamn thing.
58:56What the hell, he had me over there at the last of the night.
59:01That's when I pulled them all off.
59:04I pulled them all off and said, all right, follow up when I send it.
59:09He said that.
59:10I said, now we've got that solution.
59:1124 hours, we'll all be done.
59:12We've destroyed the greatest coup.
59:12We've got to go anywhere that they're really talking about the problem.
59:14We are here.
59:14We're proud of you.
59:15The problem with rocket society, I think, along the lines you suggest, but what I can just simply say is,
59:34Don't underestimate that that will solve the problem of Henry.
59:36No, it won't.
59:36Because Henry's problem is a deep emotional insecurity.
59:37He is going to see to the other times, not because of his trying to get at Rogers.
59:52That's the part that worries me more about this one.
59:53He now has reached the point where he's a little bit ahead of the president.
59:55That's important.
59:56That's right.
1:00:18And three, he believed in the two-wheeled version.
1:00:20He believed that he knows everything, that he can guide everyone.
1:00:21Yeah.
1:00:21And frankly, in terms of, uh, I even had to talk to him in terms of his announcements about the two controls and the rest of this.
1:00:24It's a rather categorized idea, and I suppose that he won't watch.
1:00:39because he thought of this and he loved that and so forth and so on.
1:00:40I told him, I said, we're going to do a question.
1:00:41You're going to do a question.
1:00:42I said, I understand.
1:00:42You're speaking to him.
1:00:43I'm speaking to him.
1:00:43I said, Henry, come on.
1:00:44I said, well, do you think that's what I'm going to do or not?
1:00:45You know?
1:00:45If I had, you wouldn't believe what he writes as suggestions for me to answer to those foreign policies because it's that guy.
1:01:09Here we got involved an emotionally disturbed man because of a defeat.
1:01:11He cannot take it.
1:01:12And to defeat him, he attacks him as one that he takes personally.
1:01:15He thinks that they're taking it all on him personally.
1:01:33And so, therefore, he's trying to justify it.
1:01:37Well, now, you're going to have both Rogers and Kissinger in San Clemente.
1:01:42Yes.
1:01:42Well, why don't we lay down the line that because of the Anderson story or anything else, neither Kissinger nor anybody in the State Department is going into this any further.
1:01:51Maybe if we get the India-Pakistan thing behind Henry.
1:01:55where he is shot at and he's not shot and shooting at them, then we might be able to... Henry cannot talk.
1:01:57When did he agree?
1:01:58I told nobody.
1:01:58I told him, frankly, what became of my order that nobody should talk to the New York Times because of what they did in the Pentagon Papers.
1:02:01See, your order did not...
1:02:02I also told Henry he's not to set up any interviews except, you know, we'll drive him through, then you shift it to me because he didn't do a job.
1:02:05But he won't do it.
1:02:23Well, Bob... Bob, you've had the same conversation with Henry that I've had.
1:02:25And he justifies it on his rebuttal on the basis that the state is doing it.
1:02:28This is the time to shut them both off on Indian pecks.
1:02:30And they'll be out there where they won't be so susceptible, hopefully.
1:02:32And if anything leaks, we'll know who did it.
1:02:34John, are you coming to California or not coming to California?
1:02:50I know this is a new format.
1:02:51You know, every other time I've been talking to Rogers, I've been beaten up on it.
1:03:19This is a negotiating session to get this thing started.
1:03:20I think it's now or next.
1:03:21Who the hell is going to talk to him again?
1:03:30I shouldn't.
1:03:30I do.
1:03:30And I do.
1:03:30What Henry wants to see, and that's what he's objecting to do, Bob, what Henry wants is to come in here, to sit down, and take three hours of my time to talk about some of the big rockers in his consent department.
1:03:35That's what he's objecting to.
1:03:35I think John, I've got a broker that's in St. Jude's.
1:03:37He's got a broker in Boatwood.
1:03:37Yeah.
1:03:37And I'll be...
1:03:54In Henry's case, Mr. President, now that, uh, well, in addition to that, my friend, Nelson Rockefeller, should know, is in the picture, and we make it, like, he wants, Nelson wants, he's going to be down here this week, he wants to come in and see me about it.
1:04:02So I can get Nelson to turn around the other way.
1:04:03Yeah, he, he understands.
1:04:05I think we might get some help.
1:04:06He probably has a few problems.
1:04:07I'm sure he can help.
1:04:08Well, that's the most confusing thing.
1:04:10No, it isn't.
1:04:32I didn't see Rogers alone, Robert.
1:04:42Well, I meant not.
1:04:42I shouldn't have.
1:04:43I shouldn't have.
1:04:44You could have.
1:04:44The driver didn't want to see you.
1:04:45No, the driver didn't want to see you.
1:04:47No, he didn't ask.
1:04:47He didn't ask.
1:04:48He didn't ask to call you.
1:04:49He didn't ask.
1:04:49We had dinner with J. Edgar Hoover and he proposed a one-night on the plane on the way back.
1:04:53Bill and his wife sat and talked to J. Edgar Hoover while I worked in the next department.
1:04:57I saw him for ten minutes before getting off the plane, not with Hoover.
1:05:09Well, it's illustrative of his ego, the thing that he has to be in every time you talk to the secretary of state.
1:05:12I know.
1:05:12Well, he's, yes, he, yes, but on the other hand, it's illustrative of his ego.
1:05:39...cannibal, and some board minister from the upper boulder, the resident by God, he's hammering him.
1:05:41He won't come in.
1:05:41Now, certainly, he makes the president talk to these ass-matchers.
1:05:43Prime Minister O'Hare says he's apparently the most important man in all of Africa, and then he sends one of his... Actually, actually, it is better.
1:05:46It is really better than he would not be.
1:06:00The reason being that he is a disturbing force in the meeting.
1:06:02Now, that is not true.
1:06:03That is not true.
1:06:03The meeting has probably been wrapped up.
1:06:04It was co-ordinated.
1:06:05It's not in 48.
1:06:05The count is speaking.
1:06:06Henry is about to end his service.
1:06:07This is terrible.
1:06:07Cade is much better.
1:06:08And also, Henry doesn't take good notes.
1:06:09Well, I guess we'd better go to John.
1:06:10You hold the line on...
1:06:29There's a crossfire out there.
1:06:30It's coming.
1:06:31Hold on.
1:06:31You've got to come out there to talk about it.
1:06:38That's better.
1:06:39I wish you'd come out there.
1:07:04Okay.
1:07:24you've got really a kind of run-through, you've got a blank page, use them all.
1:07:26I mean, a lot of the men are happy to be reporting to people to turn each of those pieces up at this point.
1:07:28And, uh, if Henry has any idea, as I said to Bob, um, I asked him, uh, Bob, I said, how long would Henry have watched John Connor as president?
1:07:31And how long?
1:07:53Well, I'm not sure.
1:07:53I've heard of that.
1:07:54It might have been a rocket.
1:07:54No, it might have been a rocket.
1:08:05sitting there with all the goddamn affairs of the nation and the world, and they go to come in and cry, you know, about these problems.
1:08:08You don't do that.
1:08:09I mean, other capitol officers don't do that.
1:08:10You know what I mean?
1:08:10The capitol officers just ask people for their purposes to help the president, not any of his goddamn burdens.
1:08:27I mean, what the hell?
1:08:27And this is all the way through.
1:08:28I had to hold Henry Sandman through kindergarten.
1:08:29I had to hold him through law school.
1:08:30I had to hold him through the Pentagon Papers.
1:08:30I had to hold him through this.
1:08:31You know, the trouble is, John, he's a hell of a problem because he comes in.
1:08:43And he's so terribly depressed about these things.
1:08:45I've had to build him up.
1:08:45Isn't that true, Tom?
1:08:45It's just unbelievable.
1:08:46And he's just really upset.
1:08:46He said, the rest of us have been out here for an hour.
1:08:48I know, but you shouldn't walk in here.
1:08:48We're going to take that.
1:08:49Do you think that would take care of him?
1:08:50No, it doesn't.
1:08:50You ought to have had to go to this medical center.
1:08:51You ought to have had to go to this medical center.
1:09:08You don't have a little detail?
1:09:09No, I don't have a little bit, or just a little bit.
1:09:10Yeah, let's see.
1:10:31Ladies and gentlemen, have a seat.
1:10:32Come away.
1:10:32Now, what happened?
1:10:32Well, we'll stick around for a while.
1:10:33We'll see you in a minute.

Nixon with unidentified visitors in the Oval Office on White House photography

AI Summary

Audio

Transcript (AI-generated)

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on January 3, 1972

Cite this conversation