Conversation 644-014

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Well, that's all that matters.

That's pretty great.

Thank you.

But for two weeks a year, ten days a year, it's hardly worth allowing to keep it active.

So I rent that car.

And then we lease another one for about ten days at the airport.

I mean, right after.

And then either stay at the Piper Key or get another car.

It's a luxury.

It's lovely, of course.

Yeah.

Such a nice place.

It's beautiful.

It's concave beaches.

It's lovely.

I was very impressed with you.

Continue with your businesses.

Yeah, just like this.

Yeah.

Key Westin is very nice, but I think I'm the first time I've heard of it.

Santa Clemente has Key Westin's weather is better.

Well, except in the summer.

Yes.

Santa Clemente's weather is July.

Okay.

beautiful, and the houses, the houses, and the centuries.

Well, tell me, uh, uh, did John Mitchell discuss with you the possibilities of, uh, where, where does it stand for the rest of the time?

I told John that I would, uh, uh, do whatever he wanted.

We had a lot of fish, uh, and we really, uh, affected by the community of Compton.

When do you, uh,

When do you have to go back?

We were due to go back on Friday of this week.

I can change my plan.

That's coming in time to try to see if we can get the wheels in motion before then.

And it's a very, very good problem because of the players involved.

But this is Monday.

We're talking about Wednesday.

We should have a much stronger player.

I'm seeing him tomorrow.

Oh, you're seeing him tomorrow?

Yes.

He is all the young guys in New York.

That's very nice to have him.

and to see various of his people in regard to the national aspects.

What I did, Mr. President, let me say that the problem we have there is layered, actually, as people within the shop that we wanted to put up in there, but I didn't feel that we wanted to do that.

We needed somebody from the outside, but somebody who was in government, who knew the moves, because we just, otherwise...

But you know very well how she is, how she works.

And we were very willing to listen.

It seemed to me that with your experience in NBFR and SALT, and also your previous experience in the business of being an actor, did you discuss these things at all with Mel?

Not very much.

Mel seemed to be primarily intent on discussing the financial aspects and discussing how soon I could get in so that he could go away on vacation.

He says he's been tied down.

Yeah.

That's true.

Well, if you're seeing him tomorrow, that's good.

That's on the cell phone.

Yes, that's on the cell phone.

And I think you ought to go to him very soon.

How about working in the department office?

I can handle that, too.

Who is your second man?

My second man is Frank Cash.

He just went over, Mr. President, last June.

Now, he said before that there was an able man called Russell Preston, who then came back to the State Department.

That is now the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Board.

Because he had to push.

He had to push.

He had to find that perfect act.

I wonder if the county would do this, if you mind, sitting down with Peter Fleming, and he's got the names of the business types that we could consider.

If you would sit down on your feet, and then maybe the two of you come up with a recommendation.

We'll do that.

I do remember that.

Sir, you'll know, you'll learn the names, so you can show me the names.

And I think we ought to be ready the moment that you, we make this move, we ought to nominate the other man.

Just so the Germans know that we're not going to be able to nominate him.

It'd be very helpful.

They've been very anxious, I suppose, as to who's going to be.

It's true that we don't have an old timer around when you put it.

I mean, somebody at this time.

That wasn't also the old timer.

He was too damn old.

They don't have a lot of time in that case.

And unfortunately, it was nothing like that.

No, no, they've been doing it in the past.

Oh, sure.

They're rigid.

They have no understanding of the new world in which they live, and they can't possibly have the... No, they've been playing with the toys, and now...

They've been playing with the toys and so forth, and are just not with it anymore.

Right.

You know, it's hard to adjust to the new realities.

Right.

We need someone who really likes to work in that kind of place.

It's a working place.

Yeah.

With doctors.

With the non-pending NBA baller.

Yeah.

But, uh, some of my predecessors didn't.

And it would be, for example, I don't know at all, but I would have thought, who is the, he runs the farm.

I'm sure it would be the traffic.

I don't know if there's more straws under the ship.

The part he represents is so small, and there's no idea.

It's indistinguishable, but it's easy.

Indistinguishable, but it has to be very logical.

He's, uh...

But at the present time, he runs extremely well.

Yes, yes.

He's running about a little older.

He was 49.

As against?

As against Bartz.

Oh, I see.

Bartz is now the chancellor candidate.

And he's the head of the party.

The elections are not next year.

The election would normally have about September of 73.

But if the, if the Moscow agreement is not ratified, what would happen in the election?

If the CDU had taken a position against the ratification of the Moscow agreement,

Marx, Schroeder, Strauss, all want to be held, and they expect no defection from the party.

And if the state-to-state agreement is turned down in the Bundestag, where there is a majority of want for the CDU, it requires a clear-cut majority of all votes in the Bundestag.

And one FDP member has announced that he will vote against ratification.

This leaves Brant with 250 boots and he needs to report a man.

Gee, is it that close, that close?

Now, if there is another defection of service, and that the Moscow game is not that bad, this means, of course, no Berlin Ring, no European Security Conference, a shambles into a decree with regard to the concept of detente, as the Russians have visualized it.

And it would lead to a worsening of relations between Russia and Germany that was going to be quite serious.

Ron, in order to avoid that, would have to have an election.

And he would probably win the election.

Unless the economic situation worsens materially.

So there is a possibility of an election in the summer.

The ratification process will be

The earliest it will be ratified would be about .

And probably the latest review would be the end of June, perhaps the first or the second.

And if it is not ratified, and we all think it will be with that kind of a situation, you can see that it's not sure.

He would probably have an election in, I think, August or September.

Otherwise, it would be one year later.

And he wants, I mean, he doesn't want to hold on to that.

He's given them that extreme pressure.

He's uh, he's in a meeting here.

Satisfied with his meetings, aren't they?

Of course they are.

Of course we have a lot to talk about, actually.

Well, I'd say there's a lot to talk about, but nothing to decide.

He was very pleased, and I really think that our relations with Germany are better than they have probably as long as any country.

They need us very badly.

We have no really serious problems that are dividing us right now.

The relationship is very close as far as my work is concerned.

And they are going to be our snatches out at Blue County in Europe.

All right.

Well, that could be the sumptuous because they only want the guy named Guts.

That's right.

I mean, the others would like to fight a very individual function.

Gosh, I don't know about Guts, but they can't do it in our county.

That's right.

None of them can play a great role in our determinants.

The Germans have the strength.

They have the necessity to.

But they're the ones on the firing line.

They know that.

The worry over any reduction in troop levels may seem trite to some.

Any workable radical, this is when the 70-bit comes up, is talked about more than almost every day.

Oh, even most of the left-wing socialists agree on that.

They agree on that.

I missed that poster, sir.

I think it's the time.

I didn't mean to put it in there.

I know the person who brought them to us.

That's right now.

That's right.

You can see we start working everything out now.

Just a question.

They're staying neutral.

They're very worried about anybody at all.

We'll just fix this after a long period.

I'm not as worried about that.

I think he's sort of, the Russians made a promise to, I gather, in a sense,

He didn't say that, but I had a sense that he sort of told Russia that they could support the idea.

But, you know, we have to, it's not a European, it's not a European Security Conference.

The purpose of it is to have a conference which would make security far less important.

Well, I hope they stand.

You don't think Brown will give way in this respect?

On the, oh, I guess in his general attitude, I mean, you know, you don't wonder why, because there's no passion, desire, as I would.

I don't think so.

I think it is honest approach.

Now, we were all suspicious as well when he came in.

Well, this is perhaps not a suspicious thing on other periods of people.

Yeah, I'm suspicious of his motives.

But I'm quite convinced.

from my very close, working with him and his associates, that Bronson approaches that he must have a very, very strong relationship with us to have any strength for Russians.

That the Dayton must be based upon strengthening the Russian alliance, rather than weakening it.

Weakening it.

It's a hard word.

And...

that the negotiating posture absolutely requires that the U.S. be strongly unified and that we participate in the BOP as the strong factor.

The Germans are, there are many things, not that it's motivated by many considerations, but I'll just be fast.

He must improve the model that he's determined to share.

To agree, Mr. President, he is doing

But what Adenauer did in the West, Adenauer atoned to France, he's atoning to Russia and the Eastern bloc countries, the Eastern nations, as a single concept.

He is motivated also by the fact that he's not, no one can be absolutely sure that we will always be steadfast.

And there is the feeling that on the one hand he wants to strengthen the Western alliance, but on the other,

You must be to, as far as possible, lessen hostility with the East, which is not necessarily.

But there is this undercurrent, which is never expressed.

They have seen, of course, the Mansfield pressures.

They've seen the Vietnam pressure.

They have seen how this huge continent of ours really can be torn and torn apart into different political views.

And they feel that they want very strong relations with the West, but they should try to make some hostility in the East, toward the East.

And this is another thing that comes.

See how you feel.

I mean, I can see his motivation.

What position, basically, is Barca's position?

Barca's position is a political position.

Barca is...

The CSU under Strauss is extremely, is frankly quite extremely on the right.

They are bitterly opposed to the Moscow agreement and the Oswald team.

They, because they have a great Catholic mission, they adopt the old religious approach that you can't deal with the devil, all you have to do is be contaminated and Russia is the devil.

You can't deal with it.

And, uh, Hartzell is dependent upon the CSU for a little bit.

into office because the CSU is a CDU.

It's a separate party, but it is the Bavarian one.

And the CDU would have no chance of being in power without the coalition of the CSU.

There is no CDU in Bavaria.

So this condition just goes to a degree.

Barca himself is one of the most moderate men.

Now, I think if it weren't for political pressures,

he would see how stupid it is for him to try to defeat the ratification, the regular ratification.

And I think what he wants is to keep unity in the party, as Wilson tried to do in Europe with regard to the Labour Party and the Common Market.

Keep unity in the party, and at the same time, not defeat the ratification process.

This is what I think Bartlett wants.

He wants to fight it.

issues occurring on the ground with this.

But he then would have, without bringing down on Germany the wrath of Russia, without the CDU being responsible for, in essence, growing as the Western allies and weakening the alliance in that sense, he still would have the anti-Russian

political posture and economics and all that, and that's one of their problems.

And his position would be strongest, I think, if we hadn't had to let him in on the attack.

But in the case of the last guy, you know, the line agreement, which I made, like, you were being serious about the rest of the machines, and so forth.

And then he sort of had a statement to Marshall, I understand, to be over here.

I'd probably have to say, oh yes, I would like to do it.

He's very strong.

He, of course, he looks upon himself as the next chancellor.

The CBU would want themselves as allies.

Sure.

And, of course, he might be, remember, nobody thought he was going to win.

He's saying shit.

Very well.

He's asking for politics.

I think we're all a bit of the same.

Is there any comment that is in the question of what made the recession?

Good.

I want to stand up for you.

Thanks a lot, isn't it?

the most important thing is to have a secretary of defense and a deputy secretary who are basically totally working together.

And that, uh, that he, uh, that he, uh, that he, uh, that he, uh, that he, uh, that he, uh,

uh i would emphasize

If you believe in blood and so forth, and you want to have his guidance and the rest of the word with him, that's what I want you to tell him.

Now, with regard to how you operate, it is important for you to naturally be there relatively.

I mean, you come in, you take your time to find out how that thing works.

But I'd like for you to take a really cool look at how it's run and so forth.

I mean, nobody can run the Pentagon.

Nobody ever has.

Packard is a wonderful man.

He did a fine job.

Larry has a good job and so forth.

But one of the reasons that I wanted you to come over is to get a fresh look at it, take a fresh look at it.

As the service secretary, it's to not only the person, but the management and everything and so forth and so on.

so that you can maybe not make significant changes in this period, in the next few months, but be ready to say what ought to be done as we go on here.

Now, a very important, well, it's not very important, critically important part of the Deputy Secretary of Defense's job is to serve on what is called the Western, you know, the Washington Special Action Group.

Larry worked with Kissinger.

Larry's understanding of what he did was somewhat suspicious of the group and Jones and so forth and so on, as is every cabinet officer, but it is the only way that you could really get the

to the, uh, the White House's, uh, decisions, uh, implement, or, you know, pass them, and get all the bureaucracy together under the very use of the Deputy, the Undersecretary of State, and the Chairman of the Town Chiefs, uh, the Chairman of the CIA, and of course the District Chief.

Now, here, uh, you, you concern an enormously important purpose,

And I want to speak to you very candidly about that important purpose again.

And the way that you would know how, because of your background, experience, and skill, to take memories of rhythms, channel it, butter it off, meet your head, and so forth and so on.

He doesn't have anybody in there who has the stature for him.

He has not respect.

Very few people talk back to him.

That is a good thing.

Henry is right most of the time, but not all the time.

The most important thing is that he needs somebody who is subtle enough to let him think that he is truly Henry's man, but at the same time smart enough

tough enough to lead him in certain directions where he needs to be led.

Now, as a method of communication, it sounds like it comes from other streams of energy.

My suggestion is that you use, I mean, that you talk to Mitch.

problems are especially sometimes brought in to these sort of crisis management problems.

Sometimes he sits in the NSC meeting and makes sure it's very clear.

very important to the bodies that has my total confidence.

In other words, it's a way that you, if you think, for example, that Henry's getting in deep water, or he's being too arrogant, or he's doing something or the other, that he's wrong, so that you don't run into the situation where you come to me and pretend to be, of course, the head of the wall and just tell John.

Good.

You see my point?

Yes, I do.

We have a little merit out there.

No, very good.

Here, you also have to be, basically, you must remember that you cannot divulge such content as is not there, because L plays his own games for reasons that are, and he's fine in his own public position, but he is, you've got to play very close to the best in him.

You've got to do that also because Henry is, of course, his father's heir.

So all in all, it will be sort of a high-water act, and particularly well.

Another man that I particularly want you to be close to and exonerate him to find reasons to talk to is Connelly.

Now, there should be some areas, well, for example,

It's a small matter, not small, very important matter.

Purchasing planes is divided by American countries.

They have the Germans and so forth.

You can be extremely helpful in that respect in getting our State Department bureaucracy

to push the American interest.

The economy, of course, that's a major interest of his.

But I can't tell you exactly how you can move in the economy side.

But he will welcome talking to you.

But I'm talking to him in terms of the management problems.

There's a hell of a lot of men, of course,

involves all that sort of thing.

But those are the people that I particularly want you to be close to.

And actually, your relations must be close to the state, with Irwin and Alan Johnson.

And that would be easy for you.

So the way I sort of look at it here is, first, you must get layers, total support and his confidence.

And I think to do that is to get what you're telling me.

Second, I want you to get in there.

And you've got to run it, recognizing that we, that I consider this job as being a sort of separate job.

It's not one where you are simply the Charlie McCarthy of the Secretary of Defense, because if you're a manager, you'll be a management man.

You've got to manage this thing.

I don't mean to be disloyal to the Secretary of Defense, but we've got, we need an independent view from time to time, which I want you to express and figure something out.

You see, there are lots of problems that have come up.

Henry, you can imagine, as well, but it's really what was happening.

John Mitchell was through for political reasons.

State leaders aren't on the Arab side.

As a matter of fact, the main point here is to just be there to be sure that we keep the two from tearing each other apart.

So we will enjoy that.

As we come up in the way of various, we probably won't have another anti-epidemic crisis for a while.

But that's typical of the kind of things that are handled in this so-called Western group.

I think it's important to develop good relations with the Joint Chiefs, which I'm sure you will anyway.

They need to be supported.

They need appeal.

They need civilians and companies.

But it will be, I can assure you, an enormously interesting assignment.

I can say it's enormously interesting.

Except for, frankly, the Secretary of State for Defense.

And if you were a lawyer,

But it's probably the most important position that I consider.

So I appreciate your taking it on that basis.

But how we're cutting the game.

I would say a good talk with John, who is a Persian good friend.

He knows these problems extremely well, and I think you should have this conversation with him.

as soon as things get along.

I don't see him quite regularly, but I mainly have a good, long, couple hour session with him, and a lot of discussing things about how do I play the kiss between the player and the minor to kiss John up.

On the, uh, the ambassadorial thing,

put it in your schedule and set it up.

I can arrange it.

If you'll get the planner, please.

No, you tell me what suits you.

If I can see Peter about 3 o'clock.

3.

I don't care.

Honestly, 3 o'clock.

3 o'clock.

And, uh,

The election year, all the screaming and hollering and so forth, it's going to be a great year, I think, for you and for all of us.

You know, the election year is a time, whatever we do, we question everything.

Sincerity, politics, et cetera, et cetera.

So you need to say it wrong.

You've got to have a hell of a thick skin to do it.

And that's what we all have to do.

You have to do it.

And you're kissing your problem.

We all have to do it.

Henry basically is, as you know, he's quite insecure.

You would never know him.

He just needs to know that.

I'm just trying to get planning on that.

Apparently he isn't.

Yeah.

I just finished my class.

We discussed his successor thing.

He's not going to have a talk with Blair tomorrow.

So we're going to rule that one out now.

We've got to get the successor thing on track before the communication team is leaving, you see.

So if you would talk with him about the candidates we have, as we may have some, and other people that we're considering, and give me a recommendation on how does it stand at the present time that we're considering Clements on other candidates here.

Well, maybe you ought to talk to him about that and see what happens.

See, I would like to have it handled as possible.

It's just not for me.

But I'd like to have it handled without my having to look into it anymore now.

And then, well, if it's Clements, it's OK.

If you talk to him about it, we'll see how they, what he feels about it.

I'm kidding.

Nobody has talked to my man yet.

Yeah, we don't know.

I really feel great honor to serve in your administration.

I think that you really have the momentum going.

You're looking at it from your outside of this country perspective.

It seems to us that you have built up the momentum that certainly should carry you into a landslide although you won't get one.

But the envy that you have created in Europe and the way you've turned the political picture around is very heartening.

The same thing is true in business.

I've talked to a lot of business people who maintain my relationships.

And the picture today is far better for you than it has been at any time, certainly.

And I think you're going to get much stronger support than what possibly was the year ago, a few months ago.

And with these things, as you know, if the momentum starts to open,

It's hard to turn around for a while.

I don't think they can.

I certainly pray that they can.

But in Europe, your image is really, in the world, is really very empty.

Max Frankl of the New York Times came in the same day, just before I came over here.

And he said, of course, you know that paper is fantastic.

And he said, present Nixon's image.

throughout the world, and in Europe, is to eliminate any American president, possibly, except for Roosevelt right after the war.

He said that, Max Frankl said this, he said that if the American people just knew, the way President Nixon has looked at it in the rest of the world, how he's got things going, that they would be aware of the people of their country.

You ought to pass that on to Henry, because I don't know that Henry's going to see Frankl next week.

Franklin didn't put this in the New York Times.

He told me, I told you about it 500 times, he told me again recently, that in his opinion, he said, well, to be frank, he said, my father was a Roosevelt hater, he was a Nixon hater, he was a New York Times hater, and he said, I've always been a Nixon hater.

I've always been very, very democratic.

But he said, I think the president is doing the kind of stuff in foreign affairs.

I'll bet he's done it.

And I said, well, they have quite a bunch of places sometimes in the United States.

But they will, Mr. President, I agree with you.

Well, they're raising, in the present time, this flag.

You know, they use these Anderson Papers.

And you've got, of course, Henry on the wall.

Let me tell you that some of you who come in here don't.

Don't think about it.

This is a Washington story, primarily.

We had a real problem there.

We couldn't let India gobble up Pakistan completely.

They did, with the support of the Soviet.

The next place would be the Middle East.

So we had to react.

And we reacted in the most just, reserved way possible to resolve the problem.

We did see West Pakistan.

And then having it done, we've taken some heat, or maybe the Indians don't like us, but on the other hand,

The Indians gave us a hell of a lot more than we need now.

And we have this very much in mind, so we'll help them at the right time.

But I don't know what you feel about it, but I am not going to testify.

It's a big day.

These people are going to be emboldened by the Indian action.

It's a shame our relationship with India is bad and so forth.

There are a lot of other things involved in this.

If you had taken the relationship with China, for example, if you had taken the other course,

Where, on top of Vietnam, and then all the pure war we've had about that, you had backed India in this memory of Pakistan.

Just imagine what would have happened then.

Well, what it would have done, first of all, it would have, this was the main issue.

It would have killed the Chinese.

Because the Soviet did this to embarrass China as much as anything else.

Beyond that, it would have set up a...

fighting the Soviet to play the same kind of a game any place in the world.

And frankly, the next place they'd play it would be in the Middle East, exactly where they would go in.

And all they have to do in the Middle East to take the balance of power is to put Soviet fliers on those planes.

With that much, the UAE are kicking the hell out of Israel.

They just can't fly the planes.

They're not going to run.

This is very thin.

Just the thin edge would change the balance, yes.

The Soviet, however, will not do that as long as they see the six fleet cruising around with the thought that, which would be a terribly tough city for us, we would react to the event that they intervened.

And we told him we would.

But if we do that, let us put this in the case of India-Pakistan.

If we hadn't jumped up and down and put in a resolution, he would have had all the rest of India-Pakistan.

He realized that the effect on the Soviet, I mean, apart from anything else, would have been devastating.

Because as they were in that period, as it was, they want to have a good victory for themselves in South Asia.

But it was a tough one for us.

We could not, we did everything we could to prevent the war, providing all kinds of, at least $5-3 million for the committee, for the refugees.

We did everything after the war started to stop it.

Now we're doing everything we can to stabilize it from now on.

But it's a miserable part of the world.

That's one of your major problems.

What's that?

One of your major problems, one of our major problems as a country

is to prevent this from leading to the dismemberment of India.

The West Bengalese who are, it's a carnage state.

Calcutta's a legal place.

And I would not be at all surprised to see West Bengalese now starting to join these.

Mojibar, or whatever, Mojib, he'll start that.

Those are violent kind of people down there.

Yes, they are.

They're very hot.

And the communists are extremely strong in West Bengal.

I know India fairly well, because India has a lot of operations in our city.

And India, the cores that hold India together are very deep.

and is more susceptible, I think, to dismemberment.

In turn, basically, India is not a country.

I mean, they talk about it's a collection of states, principalities, languages, religions, and such, and you don't have any place in the world except maybe Russia.

Exactly.

Right.

That this is right.

And they cannot see unity.

They don't see it as any language.

English is the only language.

They talk about Hindi.

And hell, everybody understands Hindi.

English is the language of the part of this.

They didn't write this.

That's the only one they have.

There's very little to hold them together.

You know, also, you think of the situation down in Vietnam, the appearance that they were doing.

They would have taken West Pakistan had we not moved, because basically they considered Pakistan an enemy and they considered China an enemy, and they thought this would be a way to gobble them up right away.

And they won cash, but nevertheless,

Anyway, the Indians, and they moved in there.

As you pointed out, this is a neighbor country.

You just can't allow it.

Good God, that's what you're fighting Vietnam for.

That's what the damn thing's all about.

After we can start the war in Vietnam, we're not continuing it.

We're not keeping it going.

This is the impact on the parliament.

North Vietnam, all over South Vietnam.

Two dismembered Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam.

The violation of the 1954 Geneva Accords.

And so that's why we're there.

It's in the interest of the world order.

People forget all these things.

And thank God this one's going to work out this year.

I hope.

Thank you.

Well, yes, and another thing, too, is that we have a very good idea of what to do with these papers.

That's what we're all about.

But we're not coming in on it for a reason.

And the presidential advisers...

Is there any credence to the business of what they're supposed to say to each other?

In fact, they have, Mr. President, the newsmakers, they cannot reveal their sources of information to other sources.

If the government reveals what happens in government, you're supposed to know what you're going to have to say.

That's exactly right.

And the very argument that the newspaper should be used about them should prevent them from doing this from Scoville's attempting to destroy the sources of information.

Some of the boy at home are picking it up a bit now.

I thought it was just some of them.

But he was to say that apart from that, though, my view is that as far as the general public is concerned,

The general public is, of course, most very interested in the Pentagon.

They're very interested in that country, Vietnam.

But India, Pakistan, you've got the center of the body.

Do you think some know what is in the center?

I found a link there.

I know they give a damn about India and Pakistan.

They should be, but they don't.

They're too damn far away.

They're too long away.

They're such miserable people.

The only people who care are people of a kind who destroy you and do that within you.

Well, I appreciate your help.

As I say, we have a very sensitive thing because he told John at the time, gee, I've got to pick my own man and so forth.

But he cannot do that.

You see, this is a presidential appointment.

I've got to pick everybody else and try to take his recommendations.

But I felt very strong need for a man at this point.

And that's what you can do.

It's snowing.

Thank you, John.

I told you we should work with Mel.

That's why you got me there.

Thank you very much.

You know how.

Well, thank you.