Nixon, Haldeman & Bull on Henry Kissinger and William P. Rogers

44:18No, I talked with Mitchell, and Mitchell and I are meeting with Rogers at 4 o'clock today.
44:26It didn't work out very well because Bill called me this morning and was saying that he was complaining because he hadn't been brought in on what was going on in China.
44:40I want to be sure that when he was doing briefings, he was included to state what's happening.
44:47He said he'd seen copies of all the cables that he kept up to date, and he hasn't.
44:59He walked right in, so he set me up beautifully.
45:03He said that, and then he said, you realize we've got to work closely together on this thing.
45:07It's important that you stay built in, because we all have to know what the other is going to do.
45:12I'm going to throw this, I've got that line worked out.
45:16Then he also read the Anderson papers, and he said, you know, after John Mitchell talked with me, I've issued orders that no one's to talk at all about any of that stuff.
45:23No one has.
45:25And he says, and they said, well, you know, we've just got enough.
45:30He said, these things are appearing to make their devices, and we couldn't afford that.
45:34We didn't know what was going on.
45:37So I didn't want to get involved.
45:39I mean, no, I agree.
45:40It's the truth.
45:41It's the same thing.
45:41You're coming from a state that's crazy in this state.
45:43And some of them are quotes.
45:44Quotes that are crazy in this state.
45:47You know, they should do this, and that, and that, and that.
45:54And he says, you know, we have to be protected with each other on these things, not critical of each other, but we've got to hang together.
46:01So I said, well, as a matter of fact, I wanted to talk with you about this whole thing.
46:06And you have some time today.
46:07And he said, yeah, I'd love to talk to you.
46:11So I think a lot of the things you might like to think is this.
46:16And maybe we don't do this enough around here.
46:21I can't look at the faces.
46:25It's going to be a very difficult year for the president.
46:37And for all their little minuscule problems, which are monstrous than that, I have a hundred.
46:48And they simply got to make the job harder and find ways
46:55perhaps more bearable.
46:58So that I, and, uh, and I just can't get a decent fight, you know, because if you're not going to get a fight, you've got to be settled outside of my office if I can.
47:07Nobody's got a problem here in Philadelphia, but he's been very good that way.
47:10We know the parents are not wanting to come in, so that's the thought that I have.
47:18Okay.
47:20Bill really asks.
47:20Bill doesn't bring the problems to you.
47:22Bill creates the problems that Harry couldn't see.
47:26We don't have to realize it.
47:30We don't have to realize it.
47:53So he stopped every press guy.
47:54And the other, he used press books on every friend he's got.
47:58And he got to devising something.
48:01He goes over to me and he says, God damn it, he's just talking about the candy and I understand it.
48:08He's incredible.
48:09I've heard it 150 times.
48:10He does it to me and I've seen it to others.
48:12And nevertheless...
48:22We cannot have an investment in this kind of situation.
48:26I'll see it through this.
48:28I'm going to see it through the China correction thing.
48:33But then that's it, you know.
48:35And it's, like, maybe he broke the topic as far as I'm concerned.
48:39I don't think he's got the emotional stability that he had.
48:44Well, I found out some interesting things.
48:47They took off late last night, but it was before you talked anything.
48:52I know it was after because I checked with Haight this morning on the time and whatever time it was, it was Haight talking to Andrew both before and after you did.
49:07And this call was before that.
49:09But Mitchell called me, I don't know, maybe 10 or 11 or something.
49:16But he said, I'm very sorry to disturb you, but Nelson Rockefeller just called me.
49:23Yeah.
49:24And he had just talked with Henry.
49:27And he had had a very traumatic, oh, he had had a very traumatic call from Henry.
49:34And Henry had told him he was quitting on the 27th.
49:41And he said Nelson was so upset, and it's the first time he's been upset.
49:45He's been dealing with this Henry problem, he's been dealing with it very cruelly and rationally and all that, but this time he was the joke.
49:52Not because Henry said he was quitting on the 27th, but because Henry's feature, Nelson, feels that Henry may have gone over the edge emotionally, now psychologically.
50:06John said, I'm not sure whether that's true or whether Henry's trying to use Nelson for leverage.
50:11But the truth is, so what?
50:12But anyway, he said, Nelson was very concerned.
50:14He was very apologetic for calling me, but he helped.
50:17You know, and Mitchell said, I think we've got to consider the possibility that Henry had a son over to the SEC.
50:24He told us one thing that he also told me, and I'm proud about that.
50:29I don't think I've mentioned it to you, but I inserted this kind of image as something that makes it not discountable now, which is that
50:52It's incredible that a presidential assistant under this kind of attack would have no public defense by his boss.
50:59That's the person who's brought you into it.
51:01All along, he's been standing on a fringe saying, we have to defend you.
51:04But to me, yesterday, in one of his early calls, when he was less rational, he hit this second about that.
51:14And apparently, he said the same thing to Nelson last night.
51:19Now, Mitchell felt, because of that, we shouldn't be sitting there sitting up there.
51:22He said, don't you have somebody out there that can hold his hand?
51:27And I said, no, we don't.
51:28We don't have anybody anywhere we can except down there.
51:31And both of us said at the same time, maybe we better have Dave get out of the county morgue.
51:36He said, I talked to Dave this morning.
51:42I filled him in on all of this.
51:45And he said, he said, he said, I'm surprised because when I talked to Henry, after the President talked to him, he seemed to be in very good spirits.
51:52And I said, yeah, but he didn't do it.
51:54I didn't talk to Henry, and that's what I said.
51:56I didn't talk to him until that, until 12.30.
52:00Pardon my, early in the call, maybe after that.
52:03And he was, he was, he had talked to the President.
52:06I mean, I don't know where, but all the time.
52:09That's where he was, wasn't he?
52:10Was it with the staff?
52:18He loved it with me more than he has before.
52:20He said, I said that Mitchell was very concerned about this.
52:27I don't think he did.
52:29No.
52:30No, he definitely doesn't.
52:31He said, what is the person that did it directly?
52:35And all I thought was that's what it is.
52:37And down the great end, it was in a very bad spot.
52:40But I didn't think we had a line on it.
52:43Right.
52:44Al said,
52:50When he left here, he walked out of Kennedy.
54:01And there's nobody else around here who you would tolerate the kind of stuff that you tolerate from him.
54:32Well, Al said, Al isn't too concerned.
54:34He says, we've got to get him back on track, and we can.
54:39What does he have come to this point of resigning before?
54:50We'll see.
54:51Sure.
54:51What else did he resign?
55:00And I was surprised he had told Nelson.
55:03And he was surprised that he was talking about a specific case.
55:06He said, you've got to realize this guy is, he is paranoid in the cleansing psychological sense that he is psychologically.
55:16He is monumentally insecure and has a very, all this.
55:22I've never resigned before, John.
55:24I don't care what you say about paranoia.
55:28I completely agree.
55:30I don't think it will go before Russia, but I'm sure it will go before China.
55:35Well, I said to Al, what Mitchell thought, that Al ought to get out there, and I said, I'd have to leave it to your judgment.
55:45You know the problem better than I do, but it seems to me that it's probably not wise that Henry sits alone and nurses his own fears.
55:52and that maybe he does need somebody to de-nurse him.
55:55Then as we were talking, I had another idea, which I don't know if it was good or not, which is that maybe we ought to get Henry back here.
56:04That he might be less paranoid and he'd be more under control and he'd get back to work if he got back here.
56:12Well, Al said he'll be calling you pretty soon.
56:15He said, let me send him out because we don't want to do something that gets them all cranked up about the traffic.
56:21I was mentioning Russian.
56:22I told him that you'd call.
56:25I said, you know, I feel like with Russians, you know.
56:30I said, it's all right.
56:39I said, can I bring up your secretary?
56:42I said, unfortunately, Amanda, you know, you've got a way to do that.
56:48You've got to bring it up to me.
56:52You've got to bring it up directly to me.
56:56I said, you've got a way to do that.
57:00You've got to bring it up to me.
57:15I said, of course.
57:17Of course he could talk to you.
57:20He said, he's got to have people who can talk to you without thinking about every problem.
57:25I didn't see him in that.
57:26And that was really what got me to where he is.
57:29That's what we're going to see.
57:30Where he is.
57:35the best we can out of it, but then when the paradox is going to set in, Bob, it's going to set in for the rest of it.
57:42Yes, anyhow, since I now can handle the job, I'm convinced.
57:44I mean, many of us have this feeling, but you've got to realize this too, Bob, that there are some great people in the state, second, that are smart, and third, I know a lot about
57:59That's the other thing.
58:00I think, yeah, dump a pair of papers, and I'll decide it, and we'll just go right on and get along.
58:05Now, we have to do it here, and we've got a lot of judgment and so forth and so on, but I just think we have to realize that we're up against a gun.
58:18So his reason for going has got to be, you know, helpful, you know.
58:23Well, I'll set it.
58:25The other thing, and he raised this before and I mentioned it to you sometime back, that you've got to recognize with Henry is that a wife, that he can't stay in one place or in one thing for great long.
58:36He has to dabble.
58:37He has to move from one thing to another.
58:41And he's been around here now for three years.
58:44And he just, now that we can keep him in tow for another year, we can keep him tied up through this year until then.
58:57So if we initiate negative changes in the state department, then we're going to criticize a lot of this, too.
59:03Now, we hear about it, you know, the whole cabin going into the factory.
59:07I mean, that'd be one thing.
59:14I mean, it's just one of those things.
59:16I mean, all the need for change is so, so, I mean, people do get it.
59:22But if you're going to get the cabin,
59:29I thought that when he called Roger that you ought to find some excuse to call him, and when you did, that worked better for me.
59:36I wanted to talk to him last night at 1230.
59:39And, uh, that was, that was, that was bad.
59:42Did you go back to that excuse to call him?
59:44I just thought maybe that would help.
59:46No, just slow it down.
59:47Slow it down.
59:48And then you'll talk to him after Roger called him.
59:58Did Rockefeller know about the transfer of an interest?
1:00:01Yes, he did this with Rockefeller.
1:00:03That's why Rockefeller got so alarmed last night.
1:00:05Did he quit Rockefeller?
1:00:06I don't know if he quit, but he had apparently some kind of blow to it from what he tells me.
1:00:34Why didn't he raise his microphone?
1:00:35He wouldn't raise it to me, but why didn't he raise it with you?
1:00:38Can you sign it if any more?
1:00:40Is that something that he just brings up right away?
1:00:42I have a feeling it just came up.
1:00:43You know, he lights it up.
1:00:47Can he really?
1:00:48Well, it gets frustrating.
1:00:49He says one thing ought to be done, and then you say, okay, we'll do it.
1:00:51And then he says, no, you can't.
1:00:52And so then he hits another thing.
1:00:57And Al says, you know, there's a lot of things I can say, so no.
1:01:02You've got a load of real things.
1:01:05And the point is, it's not in the news now.
1:01:07It's on the back pages, and let it bubble its way through the back pages.
1:01:10I have a hard time trying to run with the government.
1:01:17I don't know where everyone is.
1:01:23Ehrlichman said to tell you that he talked to Rizzo today.
1:01:26Rizzo wanted to see you, and Ehrlichman said he should talk to the ambassador about that.
1:01:34which is the way they've set up with Andrew.
1:01:37He's going to call Andrew.
1:01:41He mentioned it.
1:01:43Rizzo told John that he had had a press conference yesterday and had blasted all the Democratic candidates who praised the president.
1:01:50And John said, thank you very much.
1:01:52And Rizzo said, now I've got to send my men down to get some federal money for the city.
1:01:55And John said, fine, send them down.
1:01:57We'll go up their backs.
1:02:00And so...
1:02:04The question of...
1:02:30No.
1:02:31The thing is, we ought to have one before the budget comes out.
1:02:39Seems to me an idea will come in.
1:02:45It would be good to have one in the back of the State of the Union before the cash comes in.
1:02:52out of the way and you don't get any news out of the county.
1:02:54Good day.
1:02:55All right.
1:02:55You got nothing else to do that afternoon?
1:02:58Good.
1:02:59Good.
1:02:59You won't want to schedule anything.
1:03:00Yeah.
1:03:01And you'll have to have a leader's meeting and do that the same day that I do all the, I do the career records or whatever you do that.
1:03:06A Republican leader's meeting so that they can have one.
1:03:14That's all I'm going to have.
1:03:15I'm not going to have any more.
1:03:16I can't do
1:03:19Let's do the leaders meeting the week before that, which is the day you have to see the detriment and 25th, which would be the Tuesday after the State of the Union.
1:03:41All right.
1:03:44Good.
1:03:45Good.
1:03:48I think you ought to hit him right away.
1:03:50Well, I might have to hit him once more before I go.
1:03:52I might.
1:03:54Why don't you do it again on the 8th then, which would be the, like, two weeks later, 12 o'clock.
1:03:57On the 8th.
1:03:58Okay.
1:03:58I think I have a bipartisan meeting just before I go.
1:04:08Yeah.
1:04:09Why don't we do that and make it the 15th or so, you know, like, all the time.
1:04:14It's a bipartisan meeting.
1:04:15We'll have to have it, isn't it?
1:04:16Not with our own leaders.
1:04:20These are our own leaders.
1:04:21I guess they'll be back at 15.
1:04:26I think they'll be back.
1:04:35Grant?
1:04:37And the other thing, I talked earlier about the Romney thing of, you know, having to fly back with Deontay right now.
1:04:44Well, John says that what you said on the Romney thing was that he had to see before the State of the Union.
1:04:52And that's what Romney told you in your Christmas phone call.
1:04:54And that's what Romney has also told him.
1:04:57His whole point in seeing you is to make his pitch before the State of the Union.
1:05:05But the other one is John says you should not see him before they have their domestic counsel meeting, at which time John is going to stand back in with other cabinet members.
1:05:16And that they can't have until Friday because they can't get Conley until Friday.
1:05:21All right.
1:05:22So you need to see him until after Friday, which poses a hell of a problem.
1:05:28And I think we've just got to leave it up in the air.
1:05:29You may be seeing him, maybe you don't.
1:05:33Condemn Justice Cal John.
1:05:36I can't do it.
1:05:37I just, we just have to remember to have to lose Romney, have to lose Romney.
1:05:44Unless you see him Saturday morning.
1:05:47No, no, I'm not going to be there.
1:05:48I'm going to Thursday.
1:05:51Nobody realizes that Price has not given me anything yet.
1:05:53I haven't got a word, not word one yet, you know, on the final draft.
1:05:59I know, but I don't have it yet.
1:06:01So you see, I just got to get to work.
1:06:03I haven't got energy to center all of them.
1:06:07And he said it was, he was quite pleased with the way this was going to go.
1:06:15He said it's not, all he's trying to do is sprinkle, not rhetoric.
1:06:21Which is probably just as well, because rhetoric's no good anymore.
1:06:24Those people are.
1:06:46I mean, he sure did have a bigger chair over there.
1:06:56Especially Sam.
1:06:57I don't know.
1:07:00Sam was better than Sam.
1:07:01He stood up more than Sam.
1:07:03He stood up.
1:07:03He hated Lincoln apparently.
1:07:04He didn't like it.
1:07:06That doesn't make any difference.
1:07:08He got it off him.
1:07:09That's the difference.
1:07:10Public outside, yeah.
1:07:12He ran more department.
1:07:14Yeah, that's the point.
1:07:16Goddamn.
1:07:16But he wouldn't come over and see the president.
1:07:18He doesn't want to be sent to go across the street, you see.
1:07:21I'm sorry.
1:07:31Call the personnel.
1:07:41He doesn't have, and I don't think we're fine with this, but I'm in a position of responsibility and psychopathic personality.
1:07:50And Henry is that, he is not in charge of being a psychopathic personality.
1:07:55And we held it together with Scott Staten.
1:07:57I know that, but I think both of us do that.
1:07:58He actually held it together with Scott Staten.
1:08:01He held it together with Scott Staten.
1:08:02I'm sorry, I can't believe you didn't remember.
1:08:03I'm sorry, I can't believe you didn't remember.
1:08:08Hell, I was going down, and hell, that was taking me to the U.S., loudly.
1:08:14Do you remember the time I was in the U.S.?
1:08:19Yeah.
1:08:20Do you remember?
1:08:22I was in the U.S. the whole Middle East thing, through August.
1:08:30And, uh, all these are the results of the end of the world.
1:08:38So we do.
1:08:39That's the president.
1:08:41I know.
1:08:43And I'm glad that you served a great cause this year.
1:08:49But I want to talk to you.
1:08:51You're free right after this.
1:08:52I'll talk to you about the writers and so forth.
1:08:57Bill, believe me.
1:08:59Bill is the only thing about this, sir.
1:09:02Just make sure that this is an acceptable man.
1:09:04And if you want him to hear it, he's going to hear it.
1:09:08For example, we've got Bill Rogers on the 18th, which is when he's going to like it.
1:09:16Of course, that's a damn fine thing to start in the city.
1:09:18He's going to like it.
1:09:19Of course he's going to like it because he may not like the fact that he took the trips.
1:09:24But I'm going to start by saying that we decided that we could have some sort of negotiations with the Secretary of State to support us.
1:09:32Bill's going to like it.
1:09:34You see my point?
1:09:35I'm not so sure Bill won't like it.
1:09:37And Bill, give him a chance.
1:09:44Well, that's why I want to raise the problem, but I can't accept that about vanity.
1:09:53Like, if Bill, and I would say there still are three men who are human in a way, Grimadon, Bill, Colin,
1:10:08They all want to see this win.
1:10:10Here we go.
1:10:11Don't you agree?
1:10:14Yeah, I don't think Larry does.
1:10:16I'm not sure if Larry does, but I am positive that they'll come and get him.
1:10:20They'll have a little personal vibe, confident that they'll get a chance to win the country.
1:10:27And Bill knows from the country as well as the person.
1:10:30I'm not sure.
1:10:31Yes, I'm getting dirty.
1:10:32I think he really believes that.
1:10:34He knows that they have a lot of people in the federal office.
1:10:44All set?
1:10:45All right.
1:10:46All right.
1:10:46All right.
1:10:48All right.

Nixon, Haldeman & Bull on Henry Kissinger and William P. Rogers

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Also recorded on January 11, 1972

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