Nixon, Haldeman & Bull on Henry Kissinger and William P. Rogers

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No, I talked with Mitchell, and Mitchell and I are meeting with Rogers at 4 o'clock today.

It didn't work out really well because Bill called me this morning and was saying that he was complaining because he hadn't been brought in on what was going on in China.

I want to be sure that if one day he was doing briefings, he was included to state what's happening.

He sent Henry a discharge and he'd see copies of all the cables that he kept up to date and he hasn't.

In fact, he's walked right into it.

He said that, and he said, realize we've got to work closely together on this thing.

It's important to keep the state built in because we all have to know what the other is going to do.

I'm going to throw this, I've got that line worked out.

Then he also read the Anderson papers, and he said, you know, after John Mitchell talked with me, I've issued orders that no one's to talk at all about any of that stuff.

No one has.

He says, and they said, you know, we've just got enough.

He said, these things are appearing to make their devices, and we couldn't work with that.

We didn't know what was going on.

So I didn't know what I was going to do.

I didn't know what I was going to do.

And he says, you know, we've got to be protected with each other on these things, not critical of each other, but we've got to hang together.

So I said, well, as a matter of fact, I was going to mention I wanted to talk with you about this whole thing, and you have some time today.

And he said, yeah, I'd love to talk to you.

So I think a lot of the things you might like to think is this.

And maybe we don't do this enough around here.

I can't look at the faces today.

You heard me last night.

It's going to be a very difficult year for the president.

And for all their little minuscule problems, which are monstrous to that, I have 100.

And they simply got to make the job harder and find ways to make it

perhaps more bearable, so that I and, uh, and I just can't get a decent fight, you know, because if you're out in any other fight, you've got to be set up outside of my office if I can.

Now, we've got problems here in Philville, and he's been very good that way.

We know the insurance is not going to come in, so that's the thought that I have.

Okay.

Bill really asks.

Bill doesn't bring the problems to you.

Bill is good.

Bill creates the problems that everyone sees.

We don't have a good solution.

We have to realize it.

We've got a call.

He does it to me and others.

He does it to others.

Nevertheless,

I don't think he's got the emotional stability that he had.

I found out some interesting things.

They took off late last night, but it was before you talked to me.

I know it was after, because I checked with Haig this morning on the time, and whatever time it was, it was Haig talking to Henry both before and after you did.

But this call was before that.

But Mitchell called me, I don't know, it was maybe 10 or 11 or something, but he said, I'm very sorry to disturb you, but Nelson Rockefeller just called me.

Yeah.

And he had just talked with Henry.

And he had had a very traumatic, oh, he had had a very traumatic call from Henry.

And Henry had told him he was quitting on the 27th.

And he said Nelson was so upset, and it's the first time he's been upset.

He's been dealing with this Henry problem, he's been dealing with it very cruelly and rationally and all that, but this time he was the joke.

Not because Henry said he was quitting on the 27th, but because Henry, because Nelson feels that Henry may have gone over the edge emotionally, now psychologically.

John said, I'm not sure whether that's true or whether Henry's trying to use Nelson for leverage.

But the truth is, so what?

But anyway, he said, Nelson was very concerned.

He was very apologetic for calling me.

But he told me, no, Ben Mitchell said, I think we've got to consider the possibility that Henry has gone over to the SEC.

He told us one time, and he also told me, and I forgot about that, I don't think I mentioned it, because I inserted this kind of image, which is that

It's incredible that a presidential assistant under this kind of attack would have no public defense by his boss.

That's the first time he's brought you into it.

All along, he's been on a fringe saying, we never defended.

But to me, yesterday, in one of his early calls, when he was less rational, he hit this session about that.

And apparently, he said the same thing in Nelson last night.

Now, Mitchell felt, because of that, we shouldn't be sitting out there.

He said, don't you have somebody out there that can hold his hand?

And I said, no, we don't.

We don't have anybody in for it.

We can't accept out there.

And both of us said at the same time, maybe we better have Dave get out of the county morgue.

He said, I talked to Dave this morning.

I filled him in on all of this.

And he said, he said, he said, I'm surprised, because when I talked to Henry, after the president talked to him, he seemed to be in very good spirits.

And I said, yeah, but he mentioned good things.

And I thought, Henry, that's what, I didn't talk to him until that, until 1230.

Pardon my, I mean, until maybe after that.

And he was, he was a lawyer.

He had talked to the president.

I mean, not a lawyer, but a lawyer.

That's where he was, wasn't he, with his staff?

He loved it with me more than he has before.

He said, I said that Mitchell was very concerned about this.

Is that true?

No.

I'm glad you thought that.

No, definitely not.

Nobody has ever asked me how I thought that.

I said, what is the person that did it?

Directly.

And all I thought was that's what it is.

And down the great end.

It was in a very bad spot.

But anyway, we didn't want to do it.

Right.

Al said...

that Henry has a history of this.

When he left here, he walked out of town.

— 1 min 9 s with no transcribed speech —

And there's nobody else around here who you would tolerate the kind of stuff that you tolerate from him.

door, interrupts the meeting, sits here, and all the stuff that you let him get away with, you would, no one else would hear this stuff.

That's the kind of thing that I can't tolerate is his coming in.

Well, Al said, Al isn't too concerned.

He says, we've got to get him back on track, and we can.

But has he ever come to this point of resigning before?

Well, yes, he has.

What else did he do?

Now, I was surprised he had told Nelson, and he was surprised that he was talking about a specific case.

He said, you've got to realize this guy is, he is currently in a cleansing psychological state.

He is psychologically, he is monumentally insecure, and has a very, all this, I don't care what you say about paranoia.

I completely agree.

I don't think it would go before Russia, but I'm sure it would go before China.

Well, I said to Al, what Mitchell talked about, you know, that Al ought to get out there, and I said, I'd have to leave it to your judgment.

You know the problem better than I do, but it seems to me that it's probably not wise that Henry sits alone and nurses his own fears.

and that maybe he does need somebody to de-nurse him.

Then as we were talking, I had another idea, which I don't know if it was good or not, which is that maybe we ought to get Henry back here.

That he might be less paranoid and he'd be more under control when he'd get back to work if he got back here.

Well, Al was going to, Al said he'll be calling you pretty soon.

Just let me send him out because we don't want to do something that gets them all cranked up about the drive.

I was mentioning Rush.

I told him that you could call.

I said, you know, I feel like it with Rush.

I said, you know, I said, it's all right.

He didn't have it in the Western.

I said, he, uh, he said, if I said, you know, if I said, you cannot bring up your clarinet player, you have to come directly to me.

I said, I'm a fortunate man.

You know, you, you've got a way to do that.

You've got to bring it up to me, or you can't bring it up directly to me.

I said, you see, the mission center, you can call me, but I can't hear you.

I said, hey, I can't hear you.

He said, well, you should talk to me.

I said, of course.

Of course he could talk to you.

That's more of a conclusion.

I said, he's going to have to be able to talk to you without thinking about every problem.

I didn't see any of that.

And that was pretty weird.

He asked me, where is he?

That's what we were saying.

Where is he?

And third, I know a lot about it.

That's the other thing.

I'm going to take a couple of papers and I'll decide it.

And we'll just go right on and get along.

Now, we have to do it here.

And we've got a lot of objections and so forth and so on.

But I just think we have to realize that we're up against a gun.

So his reason for going is kind of being all helpful.

Well, now that's it.

The other thing, and he raised this before, and I mentioned it to you sometime back, that you've got to recognize with Henry is that he can't stay in one place or in one thing for great long.

He has to dabble.

He has to move from one thing to another.

And he's been around here now for three years.

And he just, now that we can keep him in tow for another year, we can keep him tied up through this year, I'm told him.

So if we initiate a change in the State Department, then we're going to clear themselves a lot of this, too.

Now, we hear about it in all the whole cabinet, but I mean, is this exactly right?

I mean, I mean, it's just one of those things.

I mean, all the, the need for change is so, so, I mean, people do get it.

But if you look at it generally as a cabinet,

I felt that when he called Roger that you ought to find some excuse to call him.

And when you did, that worked better for me.

I liked talking to him last night at 1230.

And that worked better for me.

Did you go back to him for an excuse to call him?

I just thought maybe that would help.

No, just slow it down.

Slow it down.

And then go talk to him after Roger called him.

Did Rockefeller know about Henry Ford living in this sort of house?

Yes, he did this with Rockefeller.

That's why Rockefeller got so alarmed last night.

Did he quit Rockefeller?

I don't know if he quit, but he had apparently some kind of blow to it from what he tells me.

Why didn't he raise his point?

Well, he wouldn't raise it to me, but why didn't he raise it with you?

Can you decide to defend him?

Or is that something that he just brings up right away?

I have a feeling it just came up.

You know, he lights it up.

Can he really?

It's frustrating.

He says one thing ought to be done, and then you say, okay, we'll do it.

And then he says, no, you can't.

And so then he hits another thing.

And Al said, you know, is that a thing I can say?

So no.

He got a load over him.

And the point is, it's not in the news now.

It's on the back pages, and let it bubble its way through the back pages of the jury.

And I have a hard time trying to run with it.

I don't know where it went.

Ehrlichman said to tell you that he talked to Rizzo today.

Rizzo wanted to see you, and Ehrlichman said he should talk to the ambassador about that.

which is the way they've set up with Andrew.

He's going to call Andrew.

He mentioned it.

Richard told John that he had had a press conference yesterday and had watched all the Democratic candidates praise the President.

And John said, thank you very much.

And Richard said, now I've got to send my men down to get some federal money for the city.

And John said, fine, send them down.

We'll go up their backs.

And so...

Scheduling area, question of...

No.

The thing is, we are having one before the budget comes out.

Seems to me an idea will come in.

The idea would be to do it the afternoon of the 20th, after the State of the Union, before the Capitol.

That's all I'm going to have.

I'm not going to have any more.

I can't do it.

Let's do the leaders meeting the week before that, which is the day you have to see the detachment.

What's that?

The 25th, which would be the Tuesday after the State of the Union.

All right.

Good.

I think you ought to hit him right away.

Well, I might have to hit him once more before I go.

I might.

Why don't you do it again on the 8th then, which would be like two weeks later, 12 o'clock.

On the 8th?

That's not a bad idea.

I think you have to have a bipartisan meeting just before going to China.

Yeah.

Why don't you do that and make it the 15th or so, you know, like all of them have to have a bipartisan meeting before going to China, doesn't it?

Not with our own leaders.

He's our own leader.

And yes, they'll be back at 15.

Oh, I see.

Well, then have it.

I think they'll be back.

All right.

And the other thing, I talked earlier about the Romney thing of, you know, having to fly back with Deontay right now.

Well, John says that what you said on the Romney thing was that he had to see before the State of the Union.

And that's what Romney told you in your Christmas phone call.

And that's what Romney has also told him.

His whole point in seeing you is to make his pitch before the State of the Union.

But the other one is John says you should not see him before they have their domestic counsel meeting, at which time John is going to stand back in with other cabinet members.

And that they can't have until Friday because they can't get Conley until Friday.

All right.

So you need to see him until after Friday, which poses a hell of a problem.

And I think we've just got to leave it up in the air.

You may be seeing him, maybe you don't.

Condemn Justice Joe Johnson.

Yeah, I can't do it.

We just have to remember to have to lose Romney, have to lose Romney.

Unless you see him Saturday morning.

No, no, I'm not going to be there.

I'm going to Thursday.

Nobody realizes that Price has not given me anything yet.

I haven't got a word, not word one yet, you know, on the final draft.

I know, but I don't have it yet.

So you see, I just got to get to work.

I haven't got energy to center all of them.

Henry had his back with him, and he said, he was quite pleased with the way this was going to go, and he said, it's not, all he's trying to do is framework, not rhetoric.

Which is probably just as well, because rhetoric's no good anymore.

Those people are.

I mean, he sure did have a bigger chair over there.

Especially Sam.

I don't know.

Sam was better than Sam.

He stood up more than Sam.

He stood up and he hated Lincoln apparently.

He did.

That just made a difference.

I mean, come on, a good Catholic officer, that's the difference.

Okay, I'll do that.

Yeah.

He ran more to our end.

That's the point.

Goddamn.

But he wouldn't come over and see the person.

He doesn't want to be sent to go across the street to see him.

I'm sorry.

Call the personnel.

He doesn't have, and I don't have to define it, but he has a position of responsibility and a psychopathic personality.

And Henry is that.

He is not a cure of being a psychopathic personality.

And we held it together with Scott Statham.

I know that.

I think over the U.S.

He held it together with Scott Statham.

He almost read it out of his handbook, if you remember.

I used to read it.

Hell, I was going down.

And hell, I was getting the U.S. loud.

Do you remember?

Do you remember the Patagonian Bridge?

Yeah.

Do you remember?

On that part, it's the whole Middle East thing through August.

And the... All these are just the end of the world.

So we do.

That's the president.

I know.

And you served a great cause this year.

But I want to talk to you.

You're free right after this.

I'll talk to you about the writers and so forth.

Okay.

Bill, believe me.

Bill is the only way to help us, sir.

Just make sure that this is an acceptable mandate.

And just want to get you here and easy on everything.

For example, we had Bill Rogers on the 19th, because we knew he was going to like it.

Of course, that's a damn fine thing to start with, to say he's going to like it.

Of course he's going to like it, because he may not like the fact that he took the trips.

But I'm going to start with that speech out by saying that we decided that we could have some sort of negotiations with the Secretary of State to support this one.

So we do it.

Bill's going to like it.

You see my point?

I'm not so sure Bill won't like it.

And Bill, give him a chance.

Well, that's what I want to say.

It's a problem, but I mean, it's a matter of humanity.

I think that Bill, and I would say this of our three men who are here in Norway, Grimadon, Bill, Colin,

Larry.

They really all want to see this win.

They really do.

Don't you agree?

Yeah, I don't think Larry does.

I'm not sure if Larry does, but I am positive that they'll come to get him.

They'll have to see Bill's personal life.

How many of us here stand for the country?

Bill goes from the country as well as a person.

I'm not sure.

Yes, I'm a jury.

I think he really believes that.

He knows that a lot of people have been through all this.

All set?

Done?

All right.

Nixon, Haldeman & Bull on Henry Kissinger and William P. Rogers

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Also recorded on January 11, 1972

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Nixon, Haldeman & Bull on Henry Kissinger and William P. Rogers

AI Summary

Audio

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on January 11, 1972

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