Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 645-003
Date: Tuesday, January 11, 1972 at 11:33 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob"); Bull, Stephen B.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/645-003

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[44:18] No, I talked with Mitchell, and Mitchell and I are meeting with Rogers at 4 o'clock today.
[44:26] It didn't work out very well because Bill called me this morning and was saying that he was complaining because he hadn't been brought in on what was going on in China.
[44:40] I want to be sure that when he was doing briefings, he was included to state what's happening.
[44:47] He said he'd seen copies of all the cables that he kept up to date, and he hasn't.
[44:59] He walked right in, so he set me up beautifully.
[45:03] He said that, and then he said, you realize we've got to work closely together on this thing.
[45:07] It's important that you stay built in, because we all have to know what the other is going to do.
[45:12] I'm going to throw this, I've got that line worked out.
[45:16] Then he also read the Anderson papers, and he said, you know, after John Mitchell talked with me, I've issued orders that no one's to talk at all about any of that stuff.
[45:23] No one has.
[45:25] And he says, and they said, well, you know, we've just got enough.
[45:30] He said, these things are appearing to make their devices, and we couldn't afford that.
[45:34] We didn't know what was going on.
[45:37] So I didn't want to get involved.
[45:39] I mean, no, I agree.
[45:40] It's the truth.
[45:41] It's the same thing.
[45:41] You're coming from a state that's crazy in this state.
[45:43] And some of them are quotes.
[45:44] Quotes that are crazy in this state.
[45:47] You know, they should do this, and that, and that, and that.
[45:54] And he says, you know, we have to be protected with each other on these things, not critical of each other, but we've got to hang together.
[46:01] So I said, well, as a matter of fact, I wanted to talk with you about this whole thing.
[46:06] And you have some time today.
[46:07] And he said, yeah, I'd love to talk to you.
[46:11] So I think a lot of the things you might like to think is this.
[46:16] And maybe we don't do this enough around here.
[46:21] I can't look at the faces.
[46:25] It's going to be a very difficult year for the president.
[46:37] And for all their little minuscule problems, which are monstrous than that, I have a hundred.
[46:48] And they simply got to make the job harder and find ways
[46:55] perhaps more bearable.
[46:58] So that I, and, uh, and I just can't get a decent fight, you know, because if you're not going to get a fight, you've got to be settled outside of my office if I can.
[47:07] Nobody's got a problem here in Philadelphia, but he's been very good that way.
[47:10] We know the parents are not wanting to come in, so that's the thought that I have.
[47:18] Okay.
[47:20] Bill really asks.
[47:20] Bill doesn't bring the problems to you.
[47:22] Bill creates the problems that Harry couldn't see.
[47:26] We don't have to realize it.
[47:30] We don't have to realize it.
[47:53] So he stopped every press guy.
[47:54] And the other, he used press books on every friend he's got.
[47:58] And he got to devising something.
[48:01] He goes over to me and he says, God damn it, he's just talking about the candy and I understand it.
[48:08] He's incredible.
[48:09] I've heard it 150 times.
[48:10] He does it to me and I've seen it to others.
[48:12] And nevertheless...
[48:22] We cannot have an investment in this kind of situation.
[48:26] I'll see it through this.
[48:28] I'm going to see it through the China correction thing.
[48:33] But then that's it, you know.
[48:35] And it's, like, maybe he broke the topic as far as I'm concerned.
[48:39] I don't think he's got the emotional stability that he had.
[48:44] Well, I found out some interesting things.
[48:47] They took off late last night, but it was before you talked anything.
[48:52] I know it was after because I checked with Haight this morning on the time and whatever time it was, it was Haight talking to Andrew both before and after you did.
[49:07] And this call was before that.
[49:09] But Mitchell called me, I don't know, maybe 10 or 11 or something.
[49:16] But he said, I'm very sorry to disturb you, but Nelson Rockefeller just called me.
[49:23] Yeah.
[49:24] And he had just talked with Henry.
[49:27] And he had had a very traumatic, oh, he had had a very traumatic call from Henry.
[49:34] And Henry had told him he was quitting on the 27th.
[49:41] And he said Nelson was so upset, and it's the first time he's been upset.
[49:45] He's been dealing with this Henry problem, he's been dealing with it very cruelly and rationally and all that, but this time he was the joke.
[49:52] Not because Henry said he was quitting on the 27th, but because Henry's feature, Nelson, feels that Henry may have gone over the edge emotionally, now psychologically.
[50:06] John said, I'm not sure whether that's true or whether Henry's trying to use Nelson for leverage.
[50:11] But the truth is, so what?
[50:12] But anyway, he said, Nelson was very concerned.
[50:14] He was very apologetic for calling me, but he helped.
[50:17] You know, and Mitchell said, I think we've got to consider the possibility that Henry had a son over to the SEC.
[50:24] He told us one thing that he also told me, and I'm proud about that.
[50:29] I don't think I've mentioned it to you, but I inserted this kind of image as something that makes it not discountable now, which is that
[50:52] It's incredible that a presidential assistant under this kind of attack would have no public defense by his boss.
[50:59] That's the person who's brought you into it.
[51:01] All along, he's been standing on a fringe saying, we have to defend you.
[51:04] But to me, yesterday, in one of his early calls, when he was less rational, he hit this second about that.
[51:14] And apparently, he said the same thing to Nelson last night.
[51:19] Now, Mitchell felt, because of that, we shouldn't be sitting there sitting up there.
[51:22] He said, don't you have somebody out there that can hold his hand?
[51:27] And I said, no, we don't.
[51:28] We don't have anybody anywhere we can except down there.
[51:31] And both of us said at the same time, maybe we better have Dave get out of the county morgue.
[51:36] He said, I talked to Dave this morning.
[51:42] I filled him in on all of this.
[51:45] And he said, he said, he said, I'm surprised because when I talked to Henry, after the President talked to him, he seemed to be in very good spirits.
[51:52] And I said, yeah, but he didn't do it.
[51:54] I didn't talk to Henry, and that's what I said.
[51:56] I didn't talk to him until that, until 12.30.
[52:00] Pardon my, early in the call, maybe after that.
[52:03] And he was, he was, he had talked to the President.
[52:06] I mean, I don't know where, but all the time.
[52:09] That's where he was, wasn't he?
[52:10] Was it with the staff?
[52:18] He loved it with me more than he has before.
[52:20] He said, I said that Mitchell was very concerned about this.
[52:27] I don't think he did.
[52:29] No.
[52:30] No, he definitely doesn't.
[52:31] He said, what is the person that did it directly?
[52:35] And all I thought was that's what it is.
[52:37] And down the great end, it was in a very bad spot.
[52:40] But I didn't think we had a line on it.
[52:43] Right.
[52:44] Al said,
[52:50] When he left here, he walked out of Kennedy.
[54:01] And there's nobody else around here who you would tolerate the kind of stuff that you tolerate from him.
[54:32] Well, Al said, Al isn't too concerned.
[54:34] He says, we've got to get him back on track, and we can.
[54:39] What does he have come to this point of resigning before?
[54:50] We'll see.
[54:51] Sure.
[54:51] What else did he resign?
[55:00] And I was surprised he had told Nelson.
[55:03] And he was surprised that he was talking about a specific case.
[55:06] He said, you've got to realize this guy is, he is paranoid in the cleansing psychological sense that he is psychologically.
[55:16] He is monumentally insecure and has a very, all this.
[55:22] I've never resigned before, John.
[55:24] I don't care what you say about paranoia.
[55:28] I completely agree.
[55:30] I don't think it will go before Russia, but I'm sure it will go before China.
[55:35] Well, I said to Al, what Mitchell thought, that Al ought to get out there, and I said, I'd have to leave it to your judgment.
[55:45] You know the problem better than I do, but it seems to me that it's probably not wise that Henry sits alone and nurses his own fears.
[55:52] and that maybe he does need somebody to de-nurse him.
[55:55] Then as we were talking, I had another idea, which I don't know if it was good or not, which is that maybe we ought to get Henry back here.
[56:04] That he might be less paranoid and he'd be more under control and he'd get back to work if he got back here.
[56:12] Well, Al said he'll be calling you pretty soon.
[56:15] He said, let me send him out because we don't want to do something that gets them all cranked up about the traffic.
[56:21] I was mentioning Russian.
[56:22] I told him that you'd call.
[56:25] I said, you know, I feel like with Russians, you know.
[56:30] I said, it's all right.
[56:39] I said, can I bring up your secretary?
[56:42] I said, unfortunately, Amanda, you know, you've got a way to do that.
[56:48] You've got to bring it up to me.
[56:52] You've got to bring it up directly to me.
[56:56] I said, you've got a way to do that.
[57:00] You've got to bring it up to me.
[57:15] I said, of course.
[57:17] Of course he could talk to you.
[57:20] He said, he's got to have people who can talk to you without thinking about every problem.
[57:25] I didn't see him in that.
[57:26] And that was really what got me to where he is.
[57:29] That's what we're going to see.
[57:30] Where he is.
[57:35] the best we can out of it, but then when the paradox is going to set in, Bob, it's going to set in for the rest of it.
[57:42] Yes, anyhow, since I now can handle the job, I'm convinced.
[57:44] I mean, many of us have this feeling, but you've got to realize this too, Bob, that there are some great people in the state, second, that are smart, and third, I know a lot about
[57:59] That's the other thing.
[58:00] I think, yeah, dump a pair of papers, and I'll decide it, and we'll just go right on and get along.
[58:05] Now, we have to do it here, and we've got a lot of judgment and so forth and so on, but I just think we have to realize that we're up against a gun.
[58:18] So his reason for going has got to be, you know, helpful, you know.
[58:23] Well, I'll set it.
[58:25] The other thing, and he raised this before and I mentioned it to you sometime back, that you've got to recognize with Henry is that a wife, that he can't stay in one place or in one thing for great long.
[58:36] He has to dabble.
[58:37] He has to move from one thing to another.
[58:41] And he's been around here now for three years.
[58:44] And he just, now that we can keep him in tow for another year, we can keep him tied up through this year until then.
[58:57] So if we initiate negative changes in the state department, then we're going to criticize a lot of this, too.
[59:03] Now, we hear about it, you know, the whole cabin going into the factory.
[59:07] I mean, that'd be one thing.
[59:14] I mean, it's just one of those things.
[59:16] I mean, all the need for change is so, so, I mean, people do get it.
[59:22] But if you're going to get the cabin,
[59:29] I thought that when he called Roger that you ought to find some excuse to call him, and when you did, that worked better for me.
[59:36] I wanted to talk to him last night at 1230.
[59:39] And, uh, that was, that was, that was bad.
[59:42] Did you go back to that excuse to call him?
[59:44] I just thought maybe that would help.
[59:46] No, just slow it down.
[59:47] Slow it down.
[59:48] And then you'll talk to him after Roger called him.
[59:58] Did Rockefeller know about the transfer of an interest?
[1:00:01] Yes, he did this with Rockefeller.
[1:00:03] That's why Rockefeller got so alarmed last night.
[1:00:05] Did he quit Rockefeller?
[1:00:06] I don't know if he quit, but he had apparently some kind of blow to it from what he tells me.
[1:00:34] Why didn't he raise his microphone?
[1:00:35] He wouldn't raise it to me, but why didn't he raise it with you?
[1:00:38] Can you sign it if any more?
[1:00:40] Is that something that he just brings up right away?
[1:00:42] I have a feeling it just came up.
[1:00:43] You know, he lights it up.
[1:00:47] Can he really?
[1:00:48] Well, it gets frustrating.
[1:00:49] He says one thing ought to be done, and then you say, okay, we'll do it.
[1:00:51] And then he says, no, you can't.
[1:00:52] And so then he hits another thing.
[1:00:57] And Al says, you know, there's a lot of things I can say, so no.
[1:01:02] You've got a load of real things.
[1:01:05] And the point is, it's not in the news now.
[1:01:07] It's on the back pages, and let it bubble its way through the back pages.
[1:01:10] I have a hard time trying to run with the government.
[1:01:17] I don't know where everyone is.
[1:01:23] Ehrlichman said to tell you that he talked to Rizzo today.
[1:01:26] Rizzo wanted to see you, and Ehrlichman said he should talk to the ambassador about that.
[1:01:34] which is the way they've set up with Andrew.
[1:01:37] He's going to call Andrew.
[1:01:41] He mentioned it.
[1:01:43] Rizzo told John that he had had a press conference yesterday and had blasted all the Democratic candidates who praised the president.
[1:01:50] And John said, thank you very much.
[1:01:52] And Rizzo said, now I've got to send my men down to get some federal money for the city.
[1:01:55] And John said, fine, send them down.
[1:01:57] We'll go up their backs.
[1:02:00] And so...
[1:02:04] The question of...
[1:02:30] No.
[1:02:31] The thing is, we ought to have one before the budget comes out.
[1:02:39] Seems to me an idea will come in.
[1:02:45] It would be good to have one in the back of the State of the Union before the cash comes in.
[1:02:52] out of the way and you don't get any news out of the county.
[1:02:54] Good day.
[1:02:55] All right.
[1:02:55] You got nothing else to do that afternoon?
[1:02:58] Good.
[1:02:59] Good.
[1:02:59] You won't want to schedule anything.
[1:03:00] Yeah.
[1:03:01] And you'll have to have a leader's meeting and do that the same day that I do all the, I do the career records or whatever you do that.
[1:03:06] A Republican leader's meeting so that they can have one.
[1:03:14] That's all I'm going to have.
[1:03:15] I'm not going to have any more.
[1:03:16] I can't do
[1:03:19] Let's do the leaders meeting the week before that, which is the day you have to see the detriment and 25th, which would be the Tuesday after the State of the Union.
[1:03:41] All right.
[1:03:44] Good.
[1:03:45] Good.
[1:03:48] I think you ought to hit him right away.
[1:03:50] Well, I might have to hit him once more before I go.
[1:03:52] I might.
[1:03:54] Why don't you do it again on the 8th then, which would be the, like, two weeks later, 12 o'clock.
[1:03:57] On the 8th.
[1:03:58] Okay.
[1:03:58] I think I have a bipartisan meeting just before I go.
[1:04:08] Yeah.
[1:04:09] Why don't we do that and make it the 15th or so, you know, like, all the time.
[1:04:14] It's a bipartisan meeting.
[1:04:15] We'll have to have it, isn't it?
[1:04:16] Not with our own leaders.
[1:04:20] These are our own leaders.
[1:04:21] I guess they'll be back at 15.
[1:04:26] I think they'll be back.
[1:04:35] Grant?
[1:04:37] And the other thing, I talked earlier about the Romney thing of, you know, having to fly back with Deontay right now.
[1:04:44] Well, John says that what you said on the Romney thing was that he had to see before the State of the Union.
[1:04:52] And that's what Romney told you in your Christmas phone call.
[1:04:54] And that's what Romney has also told him.
[1:04:57] His whole point in seeing you is to make his pitch before the State of the Union.
[1:05:05] But the other one is John says you should not see him before they have their domestic counsel meeting, at which time John is going to stand back in with other cabinet members.
[1:05:16] And that they can't have until Friday because they can't get Conley until Friday.
[1:05:21] All right.
[1:05:22] So you need to see him until after Friday, which poses a hell of a problem.
[1:05:28] And I think we've just got to leave it up in the air.
[1:05:29] You may be seeing him, maybe you don't.
[1:05:33] Condemn Justice Cal John.
[1:05:36] I can't do it.
[1:05:37] I just, we just have to remember to have to lose Romney, have to lose Romney.
[1:05:44] Unless you see him Saturday morning.
[1:05:47] No, no, I'm not going to be there.
[1:05:48] I'm going to Thursday.
[1:05:51] Nobody realizes that Price has not given me anything yet.
[1:05:53] I haven't got a word, not word one yet, you know, on the final draft.
[1:05:59] I know, but I don't have it yet.
[1:06:01] So you see, I just got to get to work.
[1:06:03] I haven't got energy to center all of them.
[1:06:07] And he said it was, he was quite pleased with the way this was going to go.
[1:06:15] He said it's not, all he's trying to do is sprinkle, not rhetoric.
[1:06:21] Which is probably just as well, because rhetoric's no good anymore.
[1:06:24] Those people are.
[1:06:46] I mean, he sure did have a bigger chair over there.
[1:06:56] Especially Sam.
[1:06:57] I don't know.
[1:07:00] Sam was better than Sam.
[1:07:01] He stood up more than Sam.
[1:07:03] He stood up.
[1:07:03] He hated Lincoln apparently.
[1:07:04] He didn't like it.
[1:07:05] He didn't like it.
[1:07:06] That doesn't make any difference.
[1:07:07] He didn't like it.
[1:07:08] He got it off him.
[1:07:09] That's the difference.
[1:07:10] Public outside, yeah.
[1:07:12] He ran more department.
[1:07:14] Yeah, that's the point.
[1:07:16] Goddamn.
[1:07:16] But he wouldn't come over and see the president.
[1:07:18] He doesn't want to be sent to go across the street, you see.
[1:07:21] I'm sorry.
[1:07:31] Call the personnel.
[1:07:41] He doesn't have, and I don't think we're fine with this, but I'm in a position of responsibility and psychopathic personality.
[1:07:50] And Henry is that, he is not in charge of being a psychopathic personality.
[1:07:55] And we held it together with Scott Staten.
[1:07:57] I know that, but I think both of us do that.
[1:07:58] He actually held it together with Scott Staten.
[1:08:01] He held it together with Scott Staten.
[1:08:02] I'm sorry, I can't believe you didn't remember.
[1:08:03] I'm sorry, I can't believe you didn't remember.
[1:08:08] Hell, I was going down, and hell, that was taking me to the U.S., loudly.
[1:08:14] Do you remember the time I was in the U.S.?
[1:08:19] Yeah.
[1:08:20] Do you remember?
[1:08:22] I was in the U.S. the whole Middle East thing, through August.
[1:08:30] And, uh, all these are the results of the end of the world.
[1:08:38] So we do.
[1:08:39] That's the president.
[1:08:41] I know.
[1:08:43] And I'm glad that you served a great cause this year.
[1:08:49] But I want to talk to you.
[1:08:51] You're free right after this.
[1:08:52] I'll talk to you about the writers and so forth.
[1:08:57] Bill, believe me.
[1:08:59] Bill is the only thing about this, sir.
[1:09:02] Just make sure that this is an acceptable man.
[1:09:04] And if you want him to hear it, he's going to hear it.
[1:09:08] For example, we've got Bill Rogers on the 18th, which is when he's going to like it.
[1:09:16] Of course, that's a damn fine thing to start in the city.
[1:09:18] He's going to like it.
[1:09:19] Of course he's going to like it because he may not like the fact that he took the trips.
[1:09:24] But I'm going to start by saying that we decided that we could have some sort of negotiations with the Secretary of State to support us.
[1:09:32] Bill's going to like it.
[1:09:34] You see my point?
[1:09:35] I'm not so sure Bill won't like it.
[1:09:37] And Bill, give him a chance.
[1:09:44] Well, that's why I want to raise the problem, but I can't accept that about vanity.
[1:09:53] Like, if Bill, and I would say there still are three men who are human in a way, Grimadon, Bill, Colin,
[1:10:08] They all want to see this win.
[1:10:10] Here we go.
[1:10:11] Don't you agree?
[1:10:14] Yeah, I don't think Larry does.
[1:10:16] I'm not sure if Larry does, but I am positive that they'll come and get him.
[1:10:20] They'll have a little personal vibe, confident that they'll get a chance to win the country.
[1:10:27] And Bill knows from the country as well as the person.
[1:10:30] I'm not sure.
[1:10:31] Yes, I'm getting dirty.
[1:10:32] I think he really believes that.
[1:10:34] He knows that they have a lot of people in the federal office.
[1:10:44] All set?
[1:10:45] All right.
[1:10:46] All right.
[1:10:46] All right.
[1:10:48] All right.