Nixon, Laird & Haig on Vietnamization and Troop withdrawals

21:04They voted for reading the news, not reading it.
21:08The networks, the law issues, you see.
21:13The party says they want to fill it up.
21:15The person being taxed and all that sort of thing.
21:20Which isn't too bad, as a matter of fact.
21:23They do the fact that the far south would not be concerned there.
21:29They're very likely not to succeed.
21:33Well, they're going to take some hits, but they're going to... Yeah, they're going to do well.
21:38They're going to do well.
21:40I thought that... What I'm going to ask you is probably some of those questions.
21:50Well, I think it's well to admit that the North Vietnamese will be able to carry on a few spectaculars, but that the South Vietnamese have a gift for the Vietnamese.
22:03probably a security problem that's going to win every battle.
22:06They're going to win the vast majority of the battles that they face over there, and they have the equipment.
22:12The program has moved ahead well, and I've been given assurances by General Abrams that the program is such that we can arrive on the South Vietnamese borders very well.
22:39Now, their follow-up would be .
23:04I'm not speculating about that.
23:06It's never been predicted.
23:07We have said that we, and all the circumstances, probably evaluate the situation at that time.
23:15Naturally, they, they, they have to follow up with you on that.
23:18In fact, what are you going to do about it?
23:21Do you have any suggestions of what's going to happen?
23:42How would you handle that question?
23:46How do you deal with that question?
23:48I would just say that there will be a remaining presence of the United States forces there until the POW questions resolve.
23:53They may want to put you on the spot in person.
23:55We're down with my knowledge.
23:57Where do you want to answer that?
24:05Well, if you try to get me into numbers, I'll just say that.
24:06I just don't make projections with Comcast about
24:11Our record speaks for itself.
24:12It's a good record.
24:13Here's where we started and here's where we're going to be.
24:15Yes, we're going to be almost half a million out by the first of May.
24:21And I think I can probably get a couple of hunkers about some of the people that were... That's very strange to say, but we've got an escalator going up and up and up and down, straight down many places as we go down and down and down.
24:35It's very interesting to know that the...
24:39Some of those, and this includes those of us who come through here, said absolutely nothing when I first met them.
24:48Our number of Vietnams had been constantly increasing, and who had no plans, whatever, in the 1968 campaign, very distinctly.
25:00And now, some of the most vocal and criticizing, the most vocal and criticizing, I've tried to get the problem over almost half a million.
25:07With this announcement, 87%.
25:0887%.
25:08And I think this is half a million, which is 24,000.
25:12The prisoners for deadline, if they get into that, you obviously have an answer.
25:21Well, that's a totally blue question.
25:25I think if you would get harder to find the...
25:32My gentlemen, that's a good reference.
25:33The president pointed out in his statement to the South Asian Party that he's not going to be indicated as a candidate.
25:41They're not interested in that.
25:43Whatever.
25:43They've said that they're going to go over prisoners to be overthrown.
25:49The government itself, that's on the anonymous.
25:54And there you go.
25:56Well, I would say that anyone that tries to interpret the position any differently is either knowingly or unknowingly hating the law.
26:11And not our position.
26:13That's right.
26:18They're not hating the law.
26:25Now I'm coming down to the point, I'm trying to get...
26:31I like it if it's all right with you.
26:36Sure it is.
26:37I like the humanitarian thing.
26:51That's one thing that I'd like to talk about, the idea of stress.
26:55Absolutely, excellent, excellent.
26:57But if they raise the final field, I mean, say that that, that you thought is some of the most naive
27:05kind of questions that you've ever heard.
27:08What about offering a deadline in order to get to our prisons?
27:12This is an offer that they've already turned down.
27:15They turned it down last fall.
27:17They turned it down just one week ago by saying that their demand is for the total stop of aid, and they overthrow the Jew government, and this is what you will not do.
27:30See, they have put it on very, very hard.
27:33That's an odd question, totally.
27:35And frankly, it's one that does a disservice to the prisoners, the POWs, and so forth and so on, because it creates a condition that just doesn't exist.
27:45I've had a couple other thoughts.
27:48I think that one thing that's terrible is for you to cost your course of the country for the fact that there will be some increased enemy activity.
28:02But don't allow your prophecy with regard to increasing enemy activity to be the lead out of this struggle.
28:14What I'm getting at is this.
28:15The factory would like to have that be the lead, because that's what they've been writing for the last four, three, four days.
28:21And I can simply do it the low-key way, which, of course, you're a master at, and I can simply say, now, let's see where we are.
28:29And here's a little twist that I thought.
28:32This is a withdrawal, which is an increase, you know, gentlemen, not a big increase, but some increase over, as has been every withdrawal we've made over our previous withdrawal,
28:45and as far as we're concerned, is an indication of our conviction and our, that the Vietnamese now have the capability of defending themselves.
29:00You could say the American criminal combat role has stopped.
29:05Then you should say, you could say that they, that now, having said that they are able to defend themselves, the South Vietnamese aren't ready to win the battles, all battles, any more than the Americans run all battles, when we carry the front of the fighting.
29:21The South Vietnamese are able to defend South Vietnam, and the North Vietnamese, and they're ready to be able to defend their country, and North Vietnam has no chance at all to defeat them.
29:34And this is an indication of our confidence.
29:39Now, having said that, gentlemen, it is true that the enemy activity, I know the stories of some of you ladies and gentlemen writing about increased activities in California, Laos, Vietnam.
29:51You know, curiously enough, those stories are written all the time at this time of year.
29:58There's always increased activities.
30:00In that period, this is the time when the enemy does increase.
30:04The question is not whether the enemy increases its activity.
30:07Some may be anticipated, some may be predicted for months.
30:11The question is how solidly the enemy is performing when they, for the first time after eight long years, have a slow response level as far as defense and ground activity is concerned.
30:25And this is an indication of our comments on that.
30:28How does that sound to you?
30:29I don't know.
30:30I didn't get to that.
30:32Okay.
30:33And say the battle's won, the battle's lost, and that's good.
30:35Just as we lost the battle, so we won the battle.
30:39But here's the situation in regard to it.
30:43You have any other ideas?
30:44No, I don't have any other ideas.
30:46No, I don't have any other ideas.
30:48Okay.
30:52I think it's important that the story come out here is on reductions and not on the... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
31:13Everybody would have bought it 15 times a day, and it still survives.
31:16You believe we'll get it done.
31:17As far as the office is concerned, this is always a hard time to hear your office.
31:22It's very difficult.
31:24But we do not have any ground people that they didn't know.
31:29And as far as the oceans are concerned, we're hoping they'll be able to survive this.
31:37As far as all of Vietnam is concerned, I would be absolutely confident, I said, that the South Vietnamese now have the men, the training, the material, and the morale to defend themselves against the South.
31:52And, uh, again, I didn't even get off that little town of Kong to, uh, say, to tackle, uh, the, uh, the, uh,
32:04There will be battles won, battles lost.
32:05There will be towns lost, and towns won.
32:09But in the end, it's all going to be about winning.
32:11I just put it that way.
32:14I think it's better if they don't use the names as much.
32:17That's right.
32:17I use that because I think it would make them too much out of that town.
32:21Yeah.
32:22Well, if you were to say, you know, there would be, you know, Heron is one of them.
32:24Heron is one of them.
32:25Heron is a little more obvious.
32:29But I think it's always better
32:58You're right, you're right, you're right.
33:10So what you want to come out of here is the fact that I know that technically it's not correct to talk about anything except ceilings, and we should talk about ceilings, but the only thing that I'm interested in is the headline, so I'm going to say, I'm announcing today that we're all in addition to 70,000 for the next three months.
33:31I'll make another announcement before I make a first.
33:34I'm very glad to read you all the details.
33:41So I don't think we'll have any problems.
33:44It is important, though, to get this story based on the 70,000 withdrawals.
33:46The only line that I might put in, I might add, which will be a good way to redraw to you would be this, I just say this withdrawal is...
34:01which I've always said passes withdrawals through the Secretary of Defense of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and by President Hsu.
34:10That's a big approval of President Hsu.
34:13And it's an indication that we've drawn out a $6,000 of our, of our confidence in selling the atonement.
34:20It's not about the ability of defending itself.
34:25Some of them want me to say that, and then you, and that means the rest of them are, and they want me to say, well, what about all these battles?
34:33Yes, because they always happen this time of year.
34:35And say, I'm not trying to do this, you know, for the rest of it.
34:37There are going to be battles that are going to be hard fighting.
34:40But that biasing is going to be done, and for the next doctor, now he has met the optimization, biasing enemies.
34:48Biasing enemies, by the way.
34:50Now they call it the air power.
34:52They may try to pressure the air, say, how long are we gonna have air power there?
34:56What do you say when you have that question?
34:59Well.
35:01I wouldn't leave it out there about where we're going to be out of Vietnam, I'm going to say.
35:06In this war, we've got America all going to end by 72.
35:10I wouldn't foreclose the possibility that it might, because it might.
35:13Well, I don't think we should ever foreclose the possibility of air and sea power in that area of the world.
35:21I don't know if I'm talking about something else.
35:24I'm talking about the fact that I'm going the other way.
35:27I'm going the way of saying we don't want to get them in a position where they say that, ah, we're not going to end the American involvement in 572.
35:39If you want to leave, leave hanging out there if possible.
35:42Let me get to the point.
35:43You know, Michael, we're always going to use it up there.
35:47As far as operational
36:10Operational conditions may change, but I can assure you that as long as there's any remaining American forces there, the air power will continue to be... Oh, that's the point I'm making.
36:22Let's suppose we have a total withdrawal.
36:24Let's suppose we get our deal done just about.
36:26Now, Mr. Secretary, do you think we might continue to have air strikes?
36:31Well, that's a rather nifty question, and I don't believe it deserves any purpose in answering that.
36:36That's the way I handle it, but I'll handle it anyway.
36:39I just have not, I've never wanted to come down and say, most positively, that we wouldn't decide.
36:43You know that, but we can't.
36:44But we're in a situation where we may have to, some of us may have to, three or four months before the election.
36:53I think it'd be better for you to do that, though.
36:57That's right.
36:57You should take the better line, which you've done accurately.
37:03But on that, I think it is better if you take the advice that you have to and that I don't take.
37:08Do you want me to say, then, that this withdraws an indication of our, as the Secretary will elaborate his remarks, this withdraws an indication of our confidence in the success of the organization and the ability of the South Vietnamese to take over now the defense of their
37:33Which is what it means, you know, 69,000 ship, 69,000 people out there can't even defend themselves, let alone defend themselves, you know.
37:48And 69,000 people will have their hands full to getting the things that they have to get out of it.
37:55Get out of it, you know.
37:58You know, they're firebills.
38:00Ha, ha, ha.
38:05It's not very many people, though, Mr. President.
38:09What is your view on this?
38:13You know, I think this is exactly right.
38:14I think there are two things to keep in mind.
38:16One is the enemy is trying to build the psychology of a big attack.
38:20Therefore, we shouldn't build that.
38:21We shouldn't contribute to that.
38:22But that also...
38:25I think you might say that the idea is that, well, you might say this is sort of a unique culture from yesterday, that for the first time, and the first time since this war began, then instead of keeping it a packed secret, are doing the old thing, which may indicate that they want to have the psychology of an attack.
38:43And that's the way these goddamn people are running.
38:45They're trying to push the idea that Jesus is going to turn bad on them.
38:51We aren't there.
38:52That's the plan.
38:54American casualty, what would the casualties turn out this week?
38:57Five.
38:59Jesus.
39:00We lost four yesterday, but that's three.
39:04But we have some sort of a... Well, we get it.
39:08They've been shooting a few helicopters lately.
39:12Yeah.
39:12Well, for Christ's sake, you've got to expect it.
39:14You can't... We'll have time.
39:15We'll have a big story.
39:17Headline.
39:18American casualties sharply hindered should defy.
39:23500% of cases over the last 20 years.
39:24I mean, I can tell you what execution happened in Illinois.
39:28The great battle of March 21st in World War I. Mr. Brady was supposed to have lost, but they lost their honor, which in the end turned out to be a loss for the Germans because the Germans didn't pray for them.
39:57The British, of course, didn't have a hell of a lot of money for that kind of money.
40:05They lost $400,000.
40:22The Germans lost slightly less, even though they were on the attack.
40:31So, war has changed.
40:32Imagine if you were Secretary of Defense and you were making a casual list of the Germans.
40:40100,000 a day.
40:43All those who were not killed, about half were captured and dead, and the other half were
40:53different word coming looking at this landing more people killed in new york city right now
41:14Oh, well, that's been super.
41:16We've got about, we've run it up to about 100 homicides a week.
41:21Sure, sure, sure.
41:22We always have many homes with drugs.
41:25Anything else you think, what do you think the emphasis should be on?
41:28You've heard us, I didn't talk to you.
41:30No, I agree completely.
41:31I guess we've got to get a little... We want to emphasize that this indicates the success of the imposition.
41:41Third, we want to discount and advance this crap with regard to the fact that it's a hell of a defense.
41:47It is a hell of a defense.
41:49This offensive is ridiculous.
41:52We've been predicting it for months.
41:54Second, it always comes at this time of year.
41:58Third, the fact that the enemy's got as much of us as they want, and therefore, we believe that as far as South Vietnam is concerned, it's going to fail.
42:08There will be reports of battles, sea-sawing, there will be a sea-saw battle before them, because it's that kind of terrain, particularly their 2nd Corps, but at the end, the South Vietnamese have the men, the equipment, and the morale to defend themselves.
42:25We're going to pour in goddamn air in this career, aren't we?
42:31We are.
42:33Oh, one of the things he had last night is that the air strikes did no good.
42:39Now that's not true.
42:40I wrote the reports.
42:45No question about it.
42:46We can't get a readout.
42:48You know, they go out there, these guys are up there, and then we have to know how to get a readout of all the bomb damage.
42:55We put about 2,000 tons of P-52 stuff in there.
42:57We can't read it out.
42:59We're not getting a readout.
43:00I referred to our 4-day structure earlier.
43:03Oh, the 4-day structure.
43:05This has been good.
43:06Well, the...
43:08It did some good, sure.
43:09We've got some pictures.
43:10They aren't very good.
43:11We've got a bad weather situation out there.
43:13You know, that drone, that one drone we've got.
43:16Well, you're saying, why don't you put it this way?
43:18We've got a bad weather situation.
43:19We don't have the photographic evidence.
43:22But we have evidence from other surveys.
43:24You know, a Frenchman came back saying that the death that it had, that it had accomplished, the mission that it had accomplished, it had been very, very effective.
43:32It was very effective.
43:34I put it this way, we haven't made that strike.
43:52uh frankly you you would not have recommended the president to withdraw the press break when you say that i'm sure we can get into the i put that in that's right and they probably will ask me again if we're going to do it again and that's something that i just oh
44:10Less than 100,000 men.
44:12If they, uh, if they can carry all those men and they can keep them out of terrorism and the rest of it, we'll respond in time.
44:19We'll respond according to what we believe is necessary.
44:21Absolutely.
44:22We'll put that right out there.
44:29The thing about Mel, he never changed his mind.
44:35You know, we've done so well here.
44:39You know, there's the other side of the coin.
44:41I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm
45:11The projects have been made there in a short period.
45:13You can't bring them on any faster than we're bringing them on, Mr. President.
45:19You just can't do it.
45:21We started out with about a 10,000 rate, and we're up now to this rate.
45:27It's 23,000.
45:28But some will say, well, isn't that disappointing?
45:31No.
45:32They say, we're going to do what we should.
45:35And no, incidentally, our part, we didn't go to Vietnam for the purpose of getting our prisoners back in Persia.
45:43We didn't go to Vietnam for the purpose of withdrawing.
45:45We go to Vietnam for the purpose of achieving an American objective, and that is the right of the ability of the South Vietnamese to defend themselves.
46:00Anybody ready?
46:00I'm going to call them in now.
46:04Now, you've got it all.
46:06Yes, sir.
46:07As I said, he's done a lot of work.
46:08I've had more than five minutes, sir.
46:10Get the message out of his hair.
46:12All right.
46:13I'll just tell him.
46:14I'll just answer the questions on this, too, or you tell him that.
46:18I'll see.
46:18I don't want to get into a lot of this stuff.
46:20I'll see if you have any questions on the President's announcement.
46:25Yeah, that's right.
46:25The President, the Secretary of State President, you're going to have the public turned off, so we can take all that sort of answer.
46:34Is that okay?
46:35Is that okay?
46:36We're doing a lot of information.
46:48Now, let's see if my house up there will say hi.
47:02no i think the way you uh
47:24uh over the next three months this means that our group ceiling will be 69 000 by may 1st i don't have another announcement to take on that time this announcement has the appearance
47:52It has the approval of the governor's office, the advance, the secretary of defense, and the county chiefs of staff.
47:59Secretary, I have a major question.
48:01Maybe I could do a poll like that and turn it to you, and then you get all the solutions.
48:06I think that's a good idea.
48:07I think it's a nice kind of color.
48:09I think it's a good idea.
48:19but remember that this, that you should get into the line.
48:22This indicates our confidence in the South Asian nation, not just us.
48:26Also, the line, the American ground combat, what we've said several times before, has ended.
48:31It has.
48:33I mean, we're getting shot at, but we can fight it.
48:36Are we?
48:37What the hell are we doing?
48:40This is a piece of security.
48:42Now, I don't know.
48:51Yeah.
49:08And he had to go around information to look at this.
49:13I'm afraid this may be tough with all these contacts and things like that.
49:18Please stop.
49:20Just like I said, these are under consideration.
49:25They just say there's not a lot of consideration.
49:26He's one of the top officers.
49:28Well, he was concerned about it yesterday.
49:30Why don't you just say that he's not a consideration?
49:35That there's several people.
49:37He's one of those who's the top of the list.
49:42Do you know what I mean?
49:43So that he doesn't get it.
49:44That's the second choice.
49:47So yeah, he is my little friend, and I'm very much on his side.
49:51The two people that I cut in this deputy spot in this security area, he's the best with.
49:57We're Russian reporters.
49:59I'm a reporter, too.
50:00Since we're getting out of this goddamn Paris thing, why don't we get him back?
50:05He's a great detective.
50:11All right, go on.

Nixon, Laird & Haig on Vietnamization and Troop withdrawals

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Also recorded on January 13, 1972

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