Nixon & Woods on Economic policy and Federal budget

0:35I'm upset this way.
0:36Don't give me eyes that I don't see if you have a seal there.
0:41You probably want to use the seal.
0:46Put them over there.
0:47You got a cover?
0:48I didn't really feel like that.
0:50The wind's coming through.
0:57I'll hang the head and I don't want to try this one.
1:00I don't want to hang this one.
2:07Ja.
2:07Ja.
2:11Ja.
2:11Ja.
5:34Two o'clock on a tree.
5:37I believe that was your plan.
5:38He had a plan, too.
5:42It's fine.
8:03I wrote.
8:04Yeah, how are you?
8:05Fine.
8:05How did the party go last night?
8:08They...
8:10They got good.
8:11That's good.
8:11Well, I thought that would give them a different question.
8:14They didn't have to bitch so much.
8:16Yeah.
8:18Yeah.
8:19Good.
8:19What is the...
8:45It's very important to re-put the troops hard on the reaction stuff, because it's predictable.
9:00The Times says reactions mentioned in quiet stories that no converts were made.
10:30That's all my point is.
10:32My point is, I think we have to really get in line, and people like that, you know, they are really great to help on this sort of thing, and anyone who's required international, and that they should tell the truth, or do you have anything in mind, or do you see the necessity for this, or do you agree with me?
10:52My point is, certainly are we doing things, that's the point that I have.
11:00At the outset, it's pushing the positive side, which is obviously what you want to do.
11:06Most of what we've gotten has been about what we want.
11:11Some of it has been what you'd expect.
11:13I mean, the Santorini opiate types are going to squeal, and you're never going to get enough water for testing that.
11:20I mean, I expect someone else has got to take them on.
11:23And now, what we need, which is what you were talking about last night, that we've got to get...
11:30The attacker types on our side to attack the people who get the points on the other side.
11:36In other words, to attack the devices to make the point that the president called for are going together on this so that we could get something done.
11:46They have attacker devices, but also polishers.
11:52Yes sir, we are here.
12:12You know, and that put it out, so as they were, it's got something to put out.
12:16Yeah, we had a whole batch of, last night, they started with this kind of heat, and it just ran down the list of enormous reactions and so forth from across the country.
12:25Do you understand what I mean?
12:27Sure.
12:27Don't just, you've got to, you've almost got to spoon-peek the cigarette or anything like that, so that he's got...
18:40Thank you for watching!
19:01Because I think a letter is better on both sides.
19:05What time is your meeting?
19:0710.45.
19:07Fine.
19:08As soon as you finish, come back in.
19:11Tell them, are they still there?
19:13Yes.
19:14Are they out?
19:16Yes.
19:24Oh, no, no.
19:51Good.
19:51Okay, we'll be finished.
19:53We've got one, just, just, we're set up, we can really make some hay out of that, that goddamn McGovern thing about the president lying on the, on the... That's one that I'm going to...
20:05I know, I know.
20:06He says you lied that they didn't demand the overthrow of the Chinese government.
20:10He knows that the North Vietnamese did not demand the overthrow of the Chinese government.
20:13They only asked that we withdraw our support, withhold our support.
20:18What did you say?
20:19He's got overthrow in the...
20:29We can document it.
20:31They make two depositions for us.
20:33One withdraws for it, which in the end has a valuable consequence of all the drugs.
20:39But they went beyond that and specifically asked us to replace it.
20:44We have it.
20:45That's it.
20:45We have it.
20:46We've documented it without any question.
20:49And if you press us too hard, we'll release it.
20:57I just say it.
20:58Why don't you say it?
20:59The North being the Medes, deny this.
21:01We'll release it.
21:02Put it that way.
21:03I say it.
21:05So, I mean, that's the point you get off.
21:10Europe, I want to say, would you have heard that?
21:20Yeah, that's right.
21:20I think so, that's right.
21:21And there he is.
21:22He was there this morning.
21:24He said he was going back.
21:27Well, it was a great hour, John.
21:29We loved the old man.
21:32So we're glad to have you here.
21:40Right.
21:41Well, well, well.
21:43Well, you're here.
21:44You're always with us, and I do appreciate it, Paul.
21:55We can pick up some of the stuff like this, and make some mileage out of it.
22:07It's no matter debating, it's a matter of naming these people for lying.
22:13I agree.
22:14I agree.
22:42Well, we got it.
22:44You know, one thing I heard, he was in much better shape than I was.
22:47It was great for you to have him up there last night.
22:51I'll make a call to him, I'm sure Dan writes.
22:53But we got it.
22:55See, I didn't want to talk to you about it before the speech, but we got the impression that he had us just...
23:01Several of us were really concerned after the staff briefing because he had his lousy job.
23:06Kissinger is worse.
23:08He came in.
23:09He sounded depressed.
23:12I knew he was.
23:12He sounded depressed.
23:14And he...
23:16One through this recital of how the peace talk, how his efforts at secret diplomacy had failed.
23:22That's what it was.
23:22Well, I don't know.
23:24Well, well, have you, will you please go back and read his first draft?
23:27Okay.
23:28I've never seen it.
23:29Get the first draft.
23:30I've got it.
23:31I've got it.
23:32I've got it.
23:33I've got it.
23:33I've got it.
23:35Well, listen, it was really scary, because you got the impression, I must say, that what you were going to do was go on TV and announce that, ladies and gentlemen, sorry to say that, but really what had happened was, well, we turned that around, that's what we were saying, you know, he got mad, because they started asking questions.
23:57Because he shocked these people.
23:59And they were, you know, these are good, this is our way of getting people on the bench.
24:04And, you know, we're looking at them.
24:05He says these people don't give a damn about the substance, they only care about the power.
24:13And I said, Henry, if somebody doesn't care about the politics or any substance, you might as well realize that now.
24:22But then, according to Scala, by the time he got to the press briefings, he was just totally different here.
24:29And he did a good job with the state defense people.
24:38making sure that we have them on the track.
24:42And so it is.
25:10What are we going to do?
25:34If that hand was wrong, he should have announced it too, offered to resign first, and then come up with the peace proposal, so that you got the much better Mrs. Patti, that PR plan.
25:44He said that?
25:45Yeah.
25:45Put Henry there?
25:46Yeah.
25:48He should have announced, well, what do you mean?
25:50Had he read the speech?
25:51No.
25:52But his point was, you had a great news story in the two-step-down, and that he should have used that.
25:57And then a couple of days later, he should have gone off.
25:59Let two Anansis step down, and a couple of days later, he's proposed.
26:03I mean, is that just people?
26:05Two Anansis?
26:05Of course not.
26:07But the point is that even if he would have, it would not have been wise.
26:10He's always nitpicking everything we do.
26:12Well, plus, he's a dead ball.
26:13I'm sure you're right.
26:15I mean, if he came out, I'm not sick of it.
26:18He did this as a budget reason.
26:19As a budget reason, he did it again this morning.
26:24He just is a current adventure.
26:29Well, the problem is the contracts that is terrible to keep comparing people.
26:43Contracts have been coming.
26:46Coming if you ask you.
26:50How should we do this?
26:51He'll tell you.
26:51If he thinks you're doing something wrong, he'll say, I think it would be better to do two first, and start on that.
26:57But when there's a confronted decision, he never says it.
27:01He only looks for it.
27:03He never goes and appreciates that it's something wrong.
27:14I was just sitting here about all day.
27:17Hasn't it really pissed you off today?
27:19Oh, you're so goddamn negative these days.
27:23Get one.
27:24Got one.
27:28God, but he hadn't heard the speech from the listeners.
27:32The other point was, though, that, you know, you were there for the budget meeting, weren't you?
27:38Remember the same thing?
27:40And, Jesus, he's a nice guy.
27:42I remember when I used to sit in that chair for a year, you remember, I'd sit there and swallow it, but I was always trying to buck up for us, and all that, and you did the rest of it.
27:52God, that's the quietest thing.
27:54Always have to raise the news.
27:58He, he, he sounds as if he's on the other side.
28:01But it wasn't Goldwater's.
28:03Ha!
28:04God, he's refreshing.
28:06Now that's stuff about sticking something up down there, throw it down there, throw it and put it up the other way until it meets.
28:11Ha!
28:12That's what it is.
28:14Probably many things.
28:16Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:18It is.
28:22Goddamn, I just heard a blast.
28:25I must say, you just got me down, that's all.
28:29You shouldn't do it in front of other people.
28:35Is there anything more?
28:36I've got another 15 minutes.
28:37Should we get Colson in now again, or is he off?
28:40Don't need to.
28:40It's probably kind of productive.
28:42Frank's done a hell of a lot of stuff.
28:44I'm sure he's talked to other people.
28:45He's got Stanley going.
28:46Stanley's all fired up.
28:47He's got Sapphire working on some backup stuff.
29:17Now let's get out of here.
29:19They might not say it.
29:21I mean, when I said it, I said it.
29:23Of course, most of the leaders are all good.
29:27And to put a goddamn damper on me?
29:29Shit, I thought they should have had that.
29:31They should have been up there saying, God damn it, we're all for it, and this and that.
29:35Shit, I mean.
29:42Part of the problem is he wouldn't have been so good at it.
29:47Do you know about it?
29:48Well, he knows he is going to be consulted.
29:49I encourage him to do it.
29:56I think he ought to be here soon.
29:59But that... Well, maybe he didn't sign the contract.
30:02Well, you know, that's true shit, though.
30:03You turn Henry around.
30:05You know what happens?
30:06You turn him around by being pretty rude.
30:08It'd be like sometimes he means a little bit.
30:10But you've got to do it carefully.
30:14The question, see, those guys are just straightforward, honest people, and that drives Henry mad.
30:18He thinks, he says, that is not a loyal group.
30:20You know, they are not supportive.
30:22And I say, God damn it.
30:23You know, he's like, yeah, I spent an hour with them afterwards, and they're trying to patch him back together.
30:28You know,
30:59And I think he would rather have concluded the thing with a big
31:05He knows that negotiations fail.
31:07He's taken these problems.
31:08If you remember, every time he came back and says, we've made progress, he was tired, it looks better.
31:13And the people was better, and they were nicer.
31:15But this time, he really got them going.
31:17And I think we're going to get it.
31:19Remember, he'd say there's a 25% chance.
31:21Now there's a 50-50 chance that he'd find people to blame all the way along.
31:26Rockets, and they know they're not good.
31:28Of course, I was always the pessimist.
31:29And he tried to say, well, hey, leave them up to this and the reason.
31:33My mom really looked at it, and so forth, thinks there's been a change, and so forth.
31:37And there never was, you see, because Henry, the heir of Henry, was doing wishful thinking.
31:43But the other side of it was, which he always said, even if it doesn't work, we're making a record.
31:49And he made a hell of a record.
31:49He didn't have to pay it off, and that's a record that's worth one.
31:52And that's why I think he feels up today, because he realized it did pay off.
31:57He was still up, not saying anything, after she had been up there in the center for a while.
32:02He says, this is writing so well that I don't think I should do my press conference tomorrow.
32:07You know, I was hoping it would just get in the way of Ron talking about it.
32:14I'm sure it should.
32:14I've wondered about it too, but I think he should.
32:17I think there's...
32:19The point is, we can't just ride on the headlines.
32:21We're dealing with a bunch of dumb people.
32:23So we've got to have this explained to them over and over.
32:28And it pays off.
32:28Now, Martin Kalb did a hell of a job for us last night.
32:33I hate to admit it, because I hate to admit it.
32:35Because Henry Green did it because Scali spent 15 minutes with him after the briefing.
32:40Going back over, simplifying the points.
32:44See, Henry thinks Martin counts a great intellectual.
32:47Scali knows that Martin counts a great intellectual, and that you've got to boil it down.
32:55See, Henry doesn't like that.
32:57Scali boils it and simplifies it, and he says, you know, Scali, you know, Scali's a great intellectual.
33:04Well, Henry does like it when I take this.
33:06Well, no, he can't complain about it when I take the stage, because he knows I have to deliver it.
33:11But I know that he was horrified at my first draft.
33:15You know, he thought that, well, maybe it was a little better, but we kept working and working and working, and I kept cutting and cutting and cutting.
33:23I know that, for that Bill Sapphart, who was a soldier,
33:29But now, for instance, Cal is a guy now, he's committed, in a sense.
33:53To our root, at least for the moment.
33:55And I think Scali should move in now, as he intends to, and just play the hell out of Cali.
34:01Rather than admit it the other way, rather than start to piss on it.
34:04Okay, that's good.
34:05You know why?
34:07I think it will affect you.
34:10I think it will affect you, you know.
34:14That you, I recall that you said, I think you owe President Nixon an apology, you know, for on this thing.
34:24Something like that.
34:38Why don't you come on?
34:55He was squealing last night.
34:58He kept trying to turn it.
35:00It was really kind of funny.
35:00Because he said, well, this makes it absolutely clear now that we won't have all the troops out of Vietnam before the election.
35:08Cal said, no, it doesn't at all.
35:10I said, we would.
35:11I said, we'll go either way.
35:14But he was, they were talking about the time sequence that Segurado was saying, well, it would be, you know, they'll have to discuss it for a few weeks, perhaps maybe a few months, and then they'll move to the sixth month.
35:24And he would have rather added those up and immediately came out with what would be done by November.
35:30He kept trying to put it in the election context.
35:32The others will make the point that this is related to the election.
35:37We wouldn't have our troops up in November if we hadn't agreed on a ceasefire.
35:42We'd have appealed about this back, so it wouldn't have been great.
35:45We would have held care to leave at 25,000.
35:46You'd have most of them out, and you'd be on a course of... Oh, we'd have peace about peace, and see what we shoot at the end.
35:53Did you see Star?
35:54Shit, I got them out of Korea.
35:56And it's... 20 years later.
36:00That's good, then.
36:06But that, we can work that kind of thing.
36:08We've got...
36:12Now, for instance, Brad Morris has got a letter, maybe Chuck told you, from a posse saying, if Nixon did this, this, and this, then I would not run.
36:23Well, you've done it.
36:24Now Brad Morris is going to call it and withdraw from the race, as he said he would.
36:33And the thoughts we're getting all the way through is just,
36:36The shoring up of credibility.
36:38I wasn't sure whether this would go one way or it could have bounced either way.
36:41Remember ours?
36:44Yeah.
36:44And it could have.
36:45It could have bounced the other way of credibility, but it hurt the credibility because you've been doing something behind the secret, behind your back, behind the people's back.
36:52McCloskey's playing that out, though, that he isn't going to get anything out of it because all the others are going just the other way.
37:00And the whole thing, McCloskey said, why do we go behind the people's back?
37:03Yeah.
37:04It was...
37:05More to see, you know, something.
37:10Well, now let's be sure that we get off the ground.
37:11We've got to, that's right.
37:13We're calling in on that.
37:19The right is apparently solidly with you.
37:24Which also surprises me, because your clothes, I think, helped a lot there.
37:33The United States will never do that.
37:41So, I thought we might have to get the right turn off again.
37:45It sure as hell has gotten the attention taken away from the button.
37:49I think we were very lucky that it was this week instead of last week.
37:53Probably.
37:54Because now it can ride.
37:55And at the point we were just talking about, I think we've really got to work on it.
38:00It's not just, we've got to get the instant reaction set.
38:04We've got to not do that at the expense of the people.
38:08Because...
38:10We're going to have to keep this thing going for a while.
38:13Well, they'll be here in a couple of years.
38:16But that's when we've got to keep it going all the way.
38:18At least that was our plan yesterday.
38:22I assume you don't intend to back off of it.
38:25No, sir.
38:25That was the point we were making.
38:28Keep America united.
38:30I thought that was the leaders today.
38:32United America.
38:34Of course, it's our first reaction.
38:46You know, it's quite a bit interesting that the...
39:23So many people currently like the delivery of the speech.
39:29Just another off thing.
39:32You know what?
39:32We haven't done one in a while.
39:34We had two economic ones, and that doesn't have any.
39:38But you know, the Vietnam speech is all we have.
39:45It was delivery together with the speech.
39:50I think a lot of you got the impression that you covered, which was true of course, a very complex thing, and yet came through with it.
40:00You understood afterwards what you'd done.
40:02I don't think anybody can go back and recite it.
40:05I don't think they know step by step, but they understand the process.
40:08They understand the sequence that developed here.
40:17All came through very clearly.
40:21And it is good to look at.
40:23That style, for that kind of speech, is very good.
40:26When you sit in the chair, you read the speech, you hold it there, you don't pretend, you don't screw around with the teleprompters and all that stuff.
40:35And I just think you're absolutely right on that.
40:38And you look up an awful lot.
40:40It's like the speech I've had.
40:44You read it, but you're looking into the camera a good deal of the time.
40:54Oh, it's in that way.
41:09I wonder maybe if we might just sign the economic report today, and then it will look better tomorrow.
41:15And I don't think it's a story that you're creating, but I mean, I mean, we don't really need a story tomorrow.
41:21I'm just thinking that we might have tomorrow off, you know, like Tuesday off.
41:25I'm going to start reading.
41:27We're not doing anything on the schedule tomorrow, I think, or maybe there's some bad scanning, maybe.
41:35We'll look into it in Google.
41:37Scanning.
41:39What party?
41:39Friday, you know.
41:42Friday night, okay.
41:47Uh, there's not a reason to have it the way we want it.
41:49The reason I say that we give it to the Congress today may be my story.
41:52You see, I don't intend to have a press picture anyway.
42:00I think it makes the difference.
42:02We're going to announce stands and things tomorrow.
42:06Oh, Christ, I need to be here to do that.
42:10Do you want to go out and eat or something?
42:21I don't know.
42:22I don't know.
42:22Oh, I guess I'll be here.
42:23What do you want to do?
42:24Go on up to Camp David or something?
42:26Yeah, I'll take you to Camp David.
42:27I'll help.
42:27Oh, why not?
42:27Oh, I don't understand.
42:28Oh, yeah.
42:40I know.
42:40The economic report I can sign today, I need to look at the picture of tomorrow.
42:47I'm just saying.
42:48Yeah.
42:51Scan up the ship.
42:54Do the economic report after the quarter end meeting today.
42:58Yeah.
43:00Yeah.
43:02I'm sorry about the time on that, but that was my question.
43:05I was curious too, John Connolly, he couldn't do it.
43:08I just thought you... We only did it for John.
43:16He has to leave at 3.30 or so.
43:36You know, I mean...
44:00You know what I mean?
44:01That's the big deal.
44:02That's no surprise.
44:03The story's out, and so it isn't any big bombshell announcement.
44:07I mean, the point is that you can't do it twice.
44:14Oh, God.
44:16You wouldn't swear it out.
44:17That's the story.
44:17Well, we've done most of it twice.
44:19You know, you trot butts out, and then you swear it in.
44:23Oh, that was...
44:26Actually, you could run through a...
44:54Some morning stuff, and then going up to Camp David at noon and come back.
44:58Time for a parcel on Friday if you wanted to.
45:05Yeah, because you've got that dinner.
45:10It's not the dinner.
45:11The Wallace.
45:11The Wallace.
45:11It's probably not dinner.
45:15But you're clear Saturday and Sunday.
45:18You can go on Saturday morning.
45:20Yeah, we can go to Camp David if I wanted to prepare.
45:25We stacked it all in the morning together anyway, because I've been trying to get some clear time for you for China stuff.
45:42And I think we ought to...
45:46Yeah, we ought to start, because we've made the point of your great preparation for these trips, and that you're not going into China on, you know, your eyes closed and all that, and we know, I mean, you've done the preparation work, but I think we ought to start saying you're doing it now.
46:03We ought to have the stacks of briefing books and all that sort of stuff, and preparations for the discussions, because...
46:12I think we probably, for appearances sake, there ought to be a couple of sessions with you and Rogers and Henry.
46:19Where, I'm not sure if we put out the...
46:23I think Bill would like to do this now.
46:29Bill, you have the zone here on the spot.
46:38Henry was coming back again before his press briefing.
46:41I don't know where he is.
46:44He's gone.
46:44It's all right.
46:46Anyway, I think we ought to start building that.
46:57We'll say that in the spare time that there is, we ought to start pumping down as being China time.
47:01If you don't think that's what it's like to do my purposes on that.
47:08Well, I could go up to my office tomorrow and say I'm going out to do some reading, prepare for my camp.
47:17You could do that.
47:19If I go to camp, it'll be interruptions.
47:21If I go 30th Avenue, I could say I'm going out to do some reading, time away from here to do some preparation.
47:30And I'll be back the next day.
47:40I got on top of this counter-attack that decided to kick my arm in the ass.
47:43I had to, I mean, I had to kick a Klossy in the ass.
47:48It was really tough.
47:53I tried to get the leaders off.
47:55I was getting them to kick my arm in the ass.
48:01It was a, it really, you know, I didn't practice back then.
48:07We really put it to a market, not the goddamn war, great crowd, goddamn park.
48:16And I think we've got a better, certainly a better initial bounce from the media than we thought.
48:21And we figured they'd launch back.
48:23And I think they will.
48:25They have, yeah.
48:25Mr. President, I heard he's about to start his briefing now.
48:28It's at 3.30.
48:29It figures it will be over about 11.30.
48:31Unless he has a guy he should get, he'd like to see him for a moment.
48:37Ja, det er fint.
48:53We're going to be up to our ass in domestic messages.
48:58Yeah, but I mean, it seems to me that's going to make the public news of your interest in domestic affairs.
49:04I don't believe that...
49:10I don't know.
49:13I know that John currently disagrees with me.
49:16My going out and babbling on the television every time I send a message is a good thing, but I'm just bored as hell.
49:22I just don't want to do it.
49:23No, we should let him write just down there.
49:24I'm going to sign that.
49:25I really think so.
49:26Now, you always say, what about the environment message?
49:28What about the drug message?
49:30What about this and that?
49:31Let me find another way.
49:32I think sending a message is not a good way to get a message across.
49:35I really don't think it's a good way.
49:37The only thing, the only thing there, I think we ought to take a stab at a few, are, are, not just on the, uh,
50:04Areas like drugs, stuff, you know, some things where we can make some.
50:09Incidentally, Mindor wants to see you after the meeting with the Prime Minister.
50:16He is so sure of what's the policy about, you know.
50:20Review your discussions with the Prime Minister.
50:24Review them?
50:27For Christ's sakes, is he still the ambassador?
50:29Yeah.
50:31You know, he's returning to his post.
50:32He's here for the meetings.
50:34Never here for the visit.
50:36And, uh, I don't want to get any of your views on the U.S.-European relations.
50:42I really can't even look at France.
50:46You haven't seen it for a long time.
50:48Now, who's recommending that?
50:50Henry?
50:50No.
50:51Well, Rogers is recommending Henry's concurring home.
50:55Of course I haven't seen him for a long time, but... Oh, shit.
50:59I don't think he has a bore.
51:01I mean, he's a nice guy.
51:02He's got that.
51:03We gave you that on the pastor's shift.
51:04Yeah.
51:04And I thought I held it on the pastor's shift.
51:07I thought you said he stood in on the meeting.
51:09Right?
51:09I don't think so, no.
51:11He is who stood in on the meeting.
51:13I didn't do that.
51:13You don't have... Well, he stood in on the meeting.
51:18The pastor's sitting...
51:20Well, God damn it, he can sit in on the meeting.
51:22This is just a courtesy call.
51:24That's the way to be handled.
51:26A privately general meeting will sit in on this too.
51:34Can't we have him?
51:35He's going to the State Department for lunch today.
51:42Bill will give enough stuff on that.
51:44I think you can just leave it at that.
51:45Why don't you sit in on the meeting?
51:48All right.
51:49Put him to the line.
51:50When doors matter, I just like to have him sit in the meeting.
51:54Get him.
51:57Hey.
51:57Hey.
51:58Hey.
51:59Hey.
52:25He'd love to have Bettendorf sit in with this prime minister for any reason he can.
52:29Otherwise, I've got at least a half hour talking to him afterwards.
52:33I mean, is there any reason?
52:36Yeah, you know what I mean?
52:37This guy really shouldn't be sitting even, except he's a Dutchman.
52:40But Jesus Christ, I mean, it's a pure social call, you know, to crap around about some of the stuff and that, but goddamnit, our ambassador sits in.
52:49This is the kind of private talk I usually have.
52:51The ambassador sits in, and then I tell him, I'm sorry, but I'm tied up right afterwards, see?
52:58You see, because they had him on now for a half-hour meeting after the prime minister, and I just don't know how much time has been on hold.
53:07Yeah, so, okay.
53:10What they're trying to do, what they're used to doing with all these things, is a private agenda.
53:14Well, God damn it, this thing, uh,
53:29I thought he was coming back in.
53:31Well, he doesn't need that.
53:34Well, you're going in now for your briefing.
53:36Right, I have to review a few... Good, good.
53:37I have to say, I just want to say that I think the lines are taken fine.
53:48I think that Bob says that they raised this government point that you can read it.
53:57This is what I'm now going through.
54:03I just don't want them to have...
54:07They've never used a good overthrow.
54:08They said change, but you know, you've got to change the government.
54:12Then I say, how are we going to do that?
54:15They said, that's your problem.
54:16You put them in, you know how to get rid of them.
54:19Sure.
54:19They said you know how to get rid of them?
54:21Yeah, you know how to replace them.
54:24Well, that's what we're doing.
54:25And they said, if you make a secret deal with us to get, to replace you... That's over the German government?
54:32Of course.
54:33Then everything else will follow easily.
54:39What do you think are the possibilities of the North Vietnamese?
54:44Well, the North Vietnamese reaction has been very interesting.
54:47How do they respond on this point of order?
54:49I don't think they're going to say that they're not the over the German government.
54:53Do you?
54:54Yes.
54:55So if they hoist you, they won't dare.
54:59If they threat us too hard, we'll just publish the transcript.
55:06I mean, on this one, we're on absolutely safe ground.
55:11Whatever, is there any other points you have in mind?
55:16Well, I was going to...
55:17I bet you want to emphasize, because you're, you know, you're hot property to these damn clowns.
55:23Well, I was going to review how we got to where we are, what the proposals in gross terms were.
55:32Then, first of all, this is our proposal.
55:35This is how we got there.
55:37On May 31st we did this, on August 16th we did that.
55:42Each one of them met their demands.
55:44So now, just so that we narrow the debate, we're down to only two issues.
55:49Withdrawal,
55:51And government.
55:52That's to get the ceasefire one out of the way.
55:54Because I say the ceasefire isn't the issue.
55:57They've agreed to that.
56:03They've agreed to it, or they haven't raised that as an issue?
56:07No, they've agreed in the eight-point plan that's agreed to.
56:12Those are the only two unresolved issues.
56:17So the ceasefire part is just out of the way, and then I'll say now, what is new in our proposal?
56:28We've given up on the proposition of mutual withdrawal, people willing to set a deadline, unilaterally for our withdrawal.
56:36We've agreed to total withdrawal, and then I'll go through this.
56:43Then I'll say,
56:45The only two, but what they want is not a, they don't want a negotiation.
56:53They want a surrender.
56:54They want us to set a deadline that runs irrespective of what else happens, regardless of prisoners, or anything else.
57:03And they want us to overthrow the government and replace it with one of their choosing, regardless of the wishes of the South Vietnamese people.
57:15Those are the two big issues.
57:22And that we cannot get over.
57:23And that we cannot get over.
57:25It occurs to me that I was saying, Bob, before you got into the room today, and there was
57:34Just for God's sake.
57:36Son of a bitch.
57:37The fact was that he hadn't read the speech.
57:39He said, well, I didn't, I know you were there, and he said, well, why didn't we offer?
57:45I mean, he says, it wasn't clear.
57:48He had offered a military thing.
57:52I said, we had offered to separate the military from the military, we turned that down.
57:57He said, well, that wasn't clear from the offer.
57:59Well, goddammit, clear?
58:02It was the clearest English I've ever written in my life.
58:06Mr. President, well, I turned to Harlow, and I said, can't you get into his head that he's on the president's side, and that he can fly back here in the middle of a meeting?
58:19He was totally wrong to begin with.
58:22But secondly, at a meeting where he is with the president and congressional leaders, he should support you.
58:30If he has any questions,
58:48Let him come to your office afterwards and say, Mr. President, I have serious reservations about this.
58:53But in front of...
58:55I beg your pardon?
58:56He should come to you and say that.
59:00Or say it to me.
59:02But it's a great mistake for him to, in front of congressional leaders, to give them...
59:14Well, and then congressional leaders will wonder what the hell is going on, and it is even a question if the vice president...
59:19The poor vice president is supposed to be smart as hell.
59:23I mean, he misses the point, Dr. Frank Six.
59:25Nobody can miss the point on that.
59:27I said, period.
59:28They make the choices for them.
59:29We will either negotiate six-month withdrawal and return proceeds for our $50,000, or we will do the other.
59:38The choice is theirs.
59:39He spelled it out.
59:40But the funny thing is...
59:42Bob, don't you remember?
59:43At the meeting yesterday afternoon, he took exactly the opposite task.
59:47The meeting yesterday afternoon, he opposed the proposal of ceasefire and withdrawal.
59:54I can't understand why you stick to ceasefire.
59:55It doesn't mean...
59:57That's right.
59:58Why don't we stick it in and just hold it?
1:00:02Well, no, he said they can, as soon as we are out, they're going to break the ceasefire.
1:00:07Of course, but what the hell?
1:00:09As long as we're pulling out, would we want our tail shot out?
1:00:11That's a lie.
1:00:13Well, no, because they've offered us a ceasefire.
1:00:16But the hell of it is, we can.
1:00:18It would be a really total abdication if we protect ourselves.
1:00:23And they can throw all their forces against the South Vietnamese while we are still in the country.
1:00:29This is just a way of handing over the country.
1:00:33I say it's no problem.
1:00:37They've agreed to the formulation we've got in there.
1:00:40It's from their draft.
1:00:43And then you can say, well, then they'll come down to a critical point, and why don't you just offer withdrawal for the prisoners?
1:00:48I said we've offered, first of all, I'll say... Because obviously a ceasefire is to our advantage, and they've agreed to it, so why should we offer something less than that?
1:00:56And I'll also say, gentlemen, they have turned that one down so often, that when I went in there on May 31st, offering the president's plan of withdrawal for ceasefire, and prisoners, they didn't say, this is fine except for a ceasefire.
1:01:12They were saying, we won't discuss this at all.
1:01:15It's got to have a political proposal.
1:01:19And since then, they, but we cannot, Mr. President, I have to say, we cannot in honor just sell it out.
1:01:31I think we all suffer from it.
1:01:33That's my point, we can't.
1:01:35I'm just trying to get the goddamn tough arguments to throw through.
1:01:38If you have a ceasefire, it shows actually how weak they are, because if they were strong, they'd accept it.
1:01:46They'd save withdrawal for prisoners.
1:01:50Because they should be able to overthrow Laos and Cambodia easily without a ceasefire.
1:01:57And then they could turn it all against South Vietnam, but they're not confident enough of themselves.
1:02:02They want us to overthrow South Vietnam.
1:02:04The reason they don't want to cease fire is that they don't want... No, I mean the reason they would want to cease fire...
1:02:16I want to go over something.
1:02:17The reason they want to cease fire is that they want to stop our bombing.
1:02:24What?
1:02:25Well, but that they could get with the ceasefire.
1:02:27No, the reason they don't want the ceasefire... No, no, they want it now.
1:02:29You see, you were saying they agree.
1:02:32No, no, they agree that it is part of an overall settlement.
1:02:34I see.
1:02:37The reason they don't accept it, the reason they don't accept it... We are willing to separate.
1:02:42We are not the ones who are there.
1:02:45We'll separate the issues, or we'll do it in a package, or we'll face it.
1:02:52The reason, Mr. President, they don't accept it...
1:02:55who won't accept even withdrawals for prisoners, is because what they want, above all, is for us to stop military and economic aid, to tube them.
1:03:03That's why I came to the leader and said, after you, they give you an amendment.
1:03:08Oh, that's a very strong truth, that the Mansfield Amendment, of course, after you give that, so you withdraw regardless of what they do.
1:03:16Then I was talking about prisoners, and I said, well, we won't give you the prisoners until you
1:03:22But they are not, if they were confident, they would do withdrawal for prisoners.
1:03:30They feel that as long as there's military re-pneumatization, they're not going to make it.
1:03:36That's their problem.
1:03:37That's their big problem.
1:03:40Well, anyway, you should feel very good, Henry.
1:03:43You really learned this thing.
1:03:44You should feel very good.
1:03:45And Roger, but I just say, Bob, Agnew just drove me up the wall.
1:03:51Roger stood up for Trump defending him.
1:03:55I called Bob and I said, God damn it, Agnew has just got to be shit.
1:03:59No, but Agnew really was, it wasn't right.
1:04:03Yeah, but we just had this all the time from him, though.
1:04:10But you were, I've never known a vice president.
1:04:13Me?
1:04:14I used to sit there and defend Eisenhower.
1:04:16I knew he was wrong.
1:04:19That's why I had to.
1:04:21He's the president.
1:04:22I'm on the team.
1:04:24You know, it's like the poor guy.
1:04:29Play is no good at all.
1:04:30You're going to get clobbered by the defensive left end.
1:04:35But what do you do?
1:04:35Run the other way?
1:04:36Hell no.
1:04:37You try to knock out the defensive left end and you get clobbered.
1:04:40In any event, the vice president shouldn't sit there as if he were just one other participant.
1:04:45He gave you a harder time than the Congress.
1:04:47The Congress is fine.
1:04:50They didn't know anything.
1:04:52You, Scott, I have to say I met with you and Jerry and Ziegler's office and
1:04:58He might do the one thing that you should make this, to the extent that it does come up, because Sigler just has kinds of difficulties to say this, but you say there's overwhelming support for the proposal cycles.
1:05:10Can you say that?
1:05:11If half an opportunity presents itself.
1:05:14Oh, there really is.
1:05:17Is it for Sigler and Duran?
1:05:22We just said, good luck.
1:05:24Don't, don't, don't, don't feel, don't feel for one moment.
1:05:30You have to be there at 10.45.
1:05:33I know it is, but what I mean is, take time to prepare.
1:05:39Just go in there.
1:05:42We'll lay it out and be sure that it isn't too complicated for these unskepticals.
1:05:48I've got a good presentation.
1:05:49I know.
1:05:49You have a good presentation.
1:05:50You were excellent this morning, but what I had is we'll give it to them the same way.
1:05:54You even had to call Bill all right.
1:05:56Yes, I have.
1:05:57He sent me a letter congratulating him.
1:05:59Of course, I thought he was trying.
1:06:01He was pretty good.
1:06:02As long as I tackle that interview in front of the same people.
1:06:07I still have a promise in Germany.
1:06:09I may consider it very favorably in my house.
1:06:11You all need advice.
1:06:12I have it.
1:06:13I have it within two or three weeks after we come.
1:06:17That's right.
1:06:20Keep your hand on it.
1:06:22Keep your hand on it.
1:06:23I haven't promised it, but I have said it.
1:06:26I'm sorry.
1:06:27Good luck.
1:06:28Good luck.
1:06:28Good luck.
1:06:29Good luck.
1:06:32Everybody's out there.
1:06:35You can't get back to a single one.
1:06:37But don't rush out there until you're ready.
1:06:43I'll call Ziggler to hold them.
1:06:47Ziggler should be ready.
1:06:49Go ahead and go.
1:06:51Screw them.
1:06:52They've got plenty of time to write.
1:06:55They already have.
1:06:56We can go at 11.15.
1:06:58If he'll say anything, I'll go to the president.
1:07:07You said the wire thing has the God bless you kind of thing.
1:07:11Yeah, that's interesting.
1:07:13You know, we get those on this kind of thing.
1:07:15You can tell when there's an emotional issue, but it's thanks for a proposal to end the war.
1:07:20People will back you, God bless you, from a judge in Winston-Salem.
1:07:27You were excellent, God bless you, from a guy in Maryland, an admiral in Maryland.
1:07:33Hardly endorsed these proposals.
1:07:36We support your policies all the way.
1:07:37Continue the good work.
1:07:38Profound thanks for your untiring effort.
1:07:43Our whole heart is in support of your continued determination to end the war with honor and courage.
1:07:48Philadelphia.
1:07:49Behind you all the way.
1:07:52Connecticut.
1:07:53Congratulations on the fine speech.
1:07:55I think you're a very brave and courageous president.
1:07:57Skarsten.
1:07:59Wilma.
1:08:00Thank you, sir, for being our president, and God bless you from a woman in Texas.
1:08:04We support you for your peace plan 100%, and we are Americans.
1:08:10We bring the church of the North Vietnam, reprehensible to us as U.S. American citizens.
1:08:16A couple of American cities are more desperate needs and adverse.
1:08:22Thanks for your courageous leadership.
1:08:23You have our support and prayers.
1:08:26Columbia, South Carolina.
1:08:31We agree with Mayor Rizzo, you are a great president.
1:08:38Respectively submitted, Lillian A. Rago, Philadelphia.
1:08:59God bless you, President Nixon.
1:09:00Get rid of your inheritance and please get re-elected.
1:09:02You're evil and you're broken.
1:09:05A lot of this is basically religious people.
1:09:08Maybe you're some minority, but you're religious.
1:09:11We applaud your outstanding forthrightness in your speech for peacetime.
1:09:14Judge William Garbosi from Apple, Massachusetts.
1:09:20That's good.
1:09:22It's interesting.
1:09:23Thank God the Americans have it.
1:09:27I believe I have voiced the view of most responsible Canadians when I say thank God the Americans have a president like you with big guts and gall to stand up and face the foes of freedom, the way you did in your courageous and inspiring speech tonight.
1:09:38Keep up the good work.
1:09:39Sincerely, Mrs. Joseph Patrick Kennedy from Winnipeg, Minnesota.
1:09:44I just want to place back the generation of peace.
1:09:52Your initiative for a generation of peace.
1:09:54I don't know about now.
1:10:01I will say to you right now, this is to be very sharp.
1:10:06They know that.
1:10:08Does anybody know that?
1:10:10Or even if you don't know it, it doesn't work that way.
1:10:16I will say it.
1:10:18It can't go beyond five minutes to twelve.
1:10:26I don't give a damn what happens here.
1:10:30No.
1:10:31So I'm going to spend time with you.
1:10:36If you're ready to have a seat, please.
1:10:41You're making exactly the right decision.
1:10:43I'm going to back off a little bit.
1:10:45I'm going to back off a little bit more.
1:10:52Thank you very much.
1:10:54The client just said he's got to be here to handle the domestic truck.
1:11:02I put it that way.
1:11:02We just can't run the whole domestic council over there.
1:11:05And that's a fairly important argument.
1:11:06He's going to like it, but that's the argument.
1:11:08There's a lot going on.
1:11:09There is.
1:11:09He's got to be here, and he's going to hold it on for him as far as he lets it go to Russia.
1:11:19Mr. President, Prime Minister Di Zergo, and the entire Prime Minister, I would say I do welcome you.
1:11:28Thank you very much, Mr. President.
1:11:33Thank you very much, Mr. President.
1:11:47You sit there, Bill, and now you sit here.
1:11:53You don't want to take a picture of your wife.
1:12:00That's the best you can do.
1:12:06I know.
1:12:07I know.
1:12:08I know.
1:12:10I know.
1:12:11I know.
1:12:11I know.
1:12:15Fremont Center.
1:13:55They produce a lot of tea, don't they?
1:13:59You probably drank a lot of tea there, so it doesn't really change.
1:14:02You know, in that direction, you've been there, of course.
1:14:07In Indonesia, didn't you?
1:14:08No, I haven't.
1:14:10No, I've been in India.
1:14:11I was going to say I've been in Asia.
1:14:17And of course it was, as it was for all countries in colonial areas, it was difficult to know the wrenching part of the rest, but New Jakarta, New Jakarta, the rest, we have to remember that those who were in colonial powers, in countries like that, left a fine legacy in Magnus Bank's name.
1:14:44I mean, what you left in terms of the physical appearance and also the education areas and others.
1:14:56It's well motivated.
1:14:57Now, of course, we have our dependents, and they've got to move their own way.
1:15:03Your relationship is good there.
1:15:05In fact, they watch you right now.
1:15:07I talked to him so hard.
1:15:08He said, we keep, because you know the country, and you have, I think one of the points that is very important to like to hear your deal about here in Antioquia and so forth, is that as you move out, you know, and all this, etc., etc.,
1:15:34Very important to retain as much influence as you can.
1:15:40They need you.
1:15:41It's really a tragedy, just speaking here, and we can't say this publicly because of the great devil and so many people, but you know and I know it's a tragedy to see so many of these new countries in Africa and in the Caribbean that are totally...
1:15:59not capable of running the show.
1:16:01I mean, that doesn't mean that there's any way to stay.
1:16:05But my goodness, you take a place like Nassau, in the Soviet area, it's right up the brink of being knocked here at the moment.
1:16:15The British are getting out, and of course, the poor Soviets are doing their best to try to run it, and throw it straight and dry.
1:16:22And it really takes a genius to rule in Nassau, but they're doing it.
1:16:26Now, they'll come back in time, but the point is that the transition could have been a little slower, slower in some way that that presence could have been kept.
1:16:36Maybe they could make it.
1:16:37You need to sort of retain that.
1:16:41We were on the brink of war with Indonesia 10-20 years ago.
1:17:05Indonesia had a deflection confidence of 600%.
1:17:10And now, 8%.
1:17:12Even better than Europe.
1:17:14I don't know if there's any Dutch prime minister who's been to Indonesia since the independence.
1:17:23No, not yet.
1:17:24Not yet.
1:17:26Our floor time is 2.5 hours.
1:17:27Yeah, yeah.
1:17:28Let me, without trying to get into your business, but I think you're good.
1:17:37This is a terribly important part of the world.
1:17:43You know, there's still teachers and doctors and so forth who live in Indonesia.
1:17:49They're a country that wants a private enterprise.
1:17:52They're not anti either European or white, et cetera, et cetera.
1:17:55I mean, Sahara is smart enough to know that Sukarno will rule the place.
1:17:59And sometimes, you know, when you're traveling to that part of the world, I don't know.
1:18:07I think you kept it longer.
1:18:11You see, the revolution is too far behind the generation now.
1:18:18Our queen made a state visitant, which was a big success.
1:18:48At some point.
1:18:52I think, for example, in the Pacific area, that gray part of the world, it isn't really a comfortable or healthy position for the United States to be the only non-white power active there.
1:19:05As I told this to Pete, and of course they retained some sort of a presence now in Singapore, I said it to Dr. Du, and
1:19:14and suggested that the Germans ought to get a little closer to the Japanese, and they've been, and they are getting closer economically, and they should, and I think that in your case, that you ought not to just resign yourselves to being a very prosperous and a very healthy member of the European community.
1:19:36That's my view to this.
1:19:38I agree, I agree, Mr. President.
1:19:42We have an excellent cooperation in the Intergovernmental Committee, which is dealing with the problems of financial aid to Indonesia, of which your next chair is also in.
1:19:53You're part of the Dutch, right?
1:19:57Yes, I am.
1:19:58The Dutch are in chair.
1:20:00We added a little bit.
1:20:01Not quite a lot of art this year.
1:20:03Because of your attitude, the Japanese, we call them so far too many.
1:20:09Oh, I know.
1:20:10You're sure.
1:20:11The Japanese, of course, think they're very hard partners.
1:20:17But they've got a whole lot more room to do.
1:20:21We've all got to help these countries because they're the nation.
1:20:25We talk about Vietnam and Thailand and Cambodia and the rest.
1:20:31They're all important, actually.
1:20:33They're lost people.
1:20:35So, my god, India's got 140 million people, a thousand miles to go.
1:20:38Miles.
1:20:38It is rich.
1:20:39Resources are just fantastic, you know.
1:20:41Fantastic.
1:20:42Now, I remember from my chart, yes, that
1:20:45Well, tell me about Europe.
1:21:06And ask me anything you want about what we're doing.
1:21:09It's in our talks here.
1:21:10Thank you very much for what you said about Indonesia.
1:21:13I think that there is a difference between Indonesia and what I've been saying so far, too, in your Pacific relations.
1:21:23Keep it handy.
1:21:24Keep it in order.
1:21:25Not for purposes of colonization or anything.
1:21:28I mean, that's... No, you don't agree.
1:21:29I've got to say that.
1:21:30There's lots of people who are in the Netherlands until I'm not.
1:21:33Longer colonies.
1:21:34They are independent members of the kingdom of the Netherlands.
1:21:38Are they?
1:21:39They are.
1:21:39They are.
1:21:40There are people who want more.
1:21:43Oh, sure.
1:21:44They want more.
1:21:45Progressive.
1:21:46Oh, I don't agree.
1:21:48I don't.
1:22:44As soon as we should leave, my view, you get a process of desintegration of those islands, free of the ones that they speak English, they are free Dutch.
1:22:54Venezuela has some interest, Aruba, or...
1:23:01But it is a tiny problem, a little problem, but still it is a problem.
1:23:07How to deal with that in the future, you know.
1:23:11I personally feel it could be important to keep some time with them.
1:23:16Yeah, all of them.
1:23:17I couldn't bring my feeling into the field of defense if it seemed possible.
1:23:21Yeah.
1:23:23To help themselves and others come to us.
1:23:26And mostly the wrong ones.
1:23:29I don't.
1:23:30We all don't, yeah.
1:23:32Well, my views are quite conservative in this respect, and very practical, originally.
1:23:40If people are able to govern themselves and defend themselves, fine.
1:23:44If they're not able to govern themselves and defend themselves, then help them develop the capability, but don't go off and leave them.
1:23:50It's like throwing a poor bird out of the nasty park and fly.
1:23:53It's foolish.
1:23:55And you just...
1:24:00Oh, I learned that from the first time.
1:24:02Well, I didn't learn that.
1:24:02I learned it when I drove around the world in 1953, when I was there for 73 days.
1:24:04I went to 20 countries where my wife was president.
1:24:11I remember Churchill, the last time I saw him was about 1958.
1:24:15And he had stroke at that time, and all the rest of them.
1:24:19He still was sharp enough at the end of the day to correct himself.
1:24:26But he made it quite, he shared his envy.
1:24:31So he's calling us to his head.
1:24:37He said, it's terribly important that we have to find a way of analysis.
1:24:41Self-government is the most difficult project in the world.
1:24:47He says, we in Britain have taken several centuries
1:24:50I said, you gotta remember a couple of years, a couple hundred years ago, we were chopping off the heads of our employees.
1:24:57I said, now, what are you going to do?
1:25:00You're not going to leave these people?
1:25:02That's why some of these nuts, they really are, who are just fanatics, with regard to a way that everybody should have a self-referential, in other words, fragmentize everything.
1:25:12They're wrong.
1:25:13For the good of the people.
1:25:15It is wrong that they're good, that's all.
1:25:17In Europe, you see, just here, we are just going the other way.
1:25:21It can't work.
1:25:23What the hell?
1:25:24I love it.
1:25:26Tell us about our national sovereignty and doing that in the Republic.
1:25:30I see a good guy following that way.
1:25:32How do you feel about going to Europe?
1:25:36How do you feel?
1:25:38How does it work here in Europe?
1:25:42Historically, the commonwealth, the nation, when the British, when also, especially a country like France, but I think also Britain, are prepared to...
1:25:59Not only to go the way of economic cooperation and free trade within the area, but also to operate politically.
1:26:07Right.
1:26:07That must be known, Jack.
1:26:09Because when we only make an economic block, then we get into trouble with the rest of the world.
1:26:16Right.
1:26:17It's an economic competition, to be right.
1:26:20But I think it is good for ourselves...
1:26:23And our responsibility is to cooperate politically.
1:26:26Exactly.
1:26:27And if you have this economic bloc, it will mean that you will become a political power.
1:26:33And eventually, I mean, of course we have to go beyond that.
1:26:38The economic base, the economic cooperation can lead to cooperation in other areas, political, mutual security, and the rest of it.
1:26:48A strong third force, or fourth force.
1:26:51We have, basically, as I see it, there are five forces.
1:26:54As we look at what we can talk about, I don't need to downgrade Latin America, because, who knows, 50 years from now, Brazil would be a great power.
1:27:05It's coming fast.
1:27:06I don't need to downgrade Africa, but it's maybe 500 years away.
1:27:11The rest of Asia is important, especially Indonesia.
1:27:15But as far as
1:27:18The power of the world is concerned, the economic and potential of the military.
1:27:24There's the United States, and of course, there's Europe.
1:27:30Free Europe.
1:27:30There's Russia.
1:27:32There's Congress in China.
1:27:37And there's Japan.
1:27:39That's the key.
1:27:39And it seems to us that the key to our approach is to see that
1:27:45Try to live with the great communist superpowers, China and Russia, recognizing that our philosophical differences are irreconcilable, but that doesn't mean you have to fight about them.
1:27:59But it means also that in terms of the other parts of the world, that Japan, the United Europe, and the United States, where we will be strong competitors, all this is inevitable economically.
1:28:15Because, you know, that's the nature of things.
1:28:17We're a free nation.
1:28:18We're a productive people.
1:28:19All people.
1:28:20The people of Western Europe, the people of Japan, the people of the United States, we're the most productive people in the world.
1:28:26And we cannot produce the time to produce our systems better.
1:28:30It's a free nation.
1:28:32But we've got to carry that economic competition to keep it in the right channels, have the right kind of monetary system, and have fair rules regarding trade and the rest.
1:28:46But from the standpoint of the security and the rest, there it must be to get, because we're all in the same box.
1:28:53Now here's just Japan.
1:28:55Japan, an economic giant.
1:28:59militarily addicted because of what happened in World War II.
1:29:04The United States must constantly reassure Japan, and as our European friends should do so likewise.
1:29:13They are part of the free world of economy.
1:29:17But, as far as we the United States are concerned, we assure them of the viability of and our intention to honor our treaty commitment.
1:29:26Second, the credibility of our nuclear deterrent.
1:29:29Because otherwise, this great power of Japan, now the third, soon to be the second economic power in the world, is up for grabs.
1:29:44So we gotta have a home.
1:29:45They must have a home in the free world.
1:29:47Right?
1:29:47Yes.
1:29:48And so in Europe, in Europe, when you're really looking negative in a sense, this we would not say to our German friends.
1:30:03Correctly, but you know it's true, and I know it's true.
1:30:06There are many, many reasons why NATO must continue until there are, and continue its forces, and not have any unilateral reduction.
1:30:15One of the major ones being that as long as the Soviet Union maintains, the Soviet Union and the bloc maintains its forces, for us to do it unilaterally would be a very, very wrong table for them.
1:30:33But even if there were no Soviet military threat, you have to recognize the fact that there needs to be a home for the Germans in a free Europe.
1:30:47And if they don't have a home and a freedom, the Russians have to take even arms for what they've done to each other.
1:30:54Right?
1:30:55This is a group of people who constantly have a conspiracy, as I've seen here, because it's in a constant kind of relationship, a ground-based system.
1:31:03is the predecessor of East Germany.
1:31:05We've constantly got to say, look, Germany belong, you're part of us, and that's why Britain coming into the market is a good thing, because it gives them more of a view of what belonging is.
1:31:16They're out of politics, there are reasons for that, and we all understand, because they have a problem with East Germany.
1:31:23But we must constantly say that the Germans are reassured
1:31:29That economically, politically, monetarily, their home is in the United Europe.
1:31:35Right?
1:31:40So, you know, the political cooperation in Europe was started by people like, I don't know, the Gaspari professional.
1:31:49Those were the giants.
1:31:51Those were the giants.
1:31:52The fifties, you know.
1:31:54And you're too young.
1:31:56Oh, I know some of those folks.
1:32:01Yes, I've known the professionals as a member of the European Parliament.
1:32:09But they were the giants of European continued government, you know.
1:32:16And we need
1:32:20And ten governments is quite something to get done together.
1:32:28But it must be done, you know, it must be done.
1:32:31The Dutch have always taken a very outgoing position in this respect, haven't you?
1:32:37In respect to the European...
1:32:40Yes, there is where a small country like ours is not so important to world affairs.
1:32:46We can do something.
1:32:47I think.
1:32:49On a human scale, absolutely.
1:32:51There we can do something.
1:32:54I was very, very true by your statement after the signature of our four new members at Michigan, which was a very positive one.
1:33:06I know that you in the United States think that the common market sometimes protects you.
1:33:11I think it is.
1:33:14What you call your projections, I know some of your organizations, but the absence of the common market buying makers will make, I think, 400 million.
1:33:31They're supposed to, certainly, because of all the economic things of Great Britain, with the British, they're an awkward-looking people.
1:33:38They are.
1:33:39They have been.
1:33:40And I think he is an awkward-looking man.
1:33:43I mean, he, of course, is always...
1:33:44He's, of course, getting into the market, but he is an awkward-looking man.
1:33:49I think that's what I'm looking for.
1:33:52Of course.
1:33:52What are you looking for?
1:33:55And our country, if you look out, if you look out now, basically the French would be out right now.
1:34:02Pompidou may change his venture from an economic standpoint, because he's basically motivated by economics.
1:34:10That's all right, too.
1:34:10At least he's not rigid.
1:34:12At least his nature is rigid.
1:34:16Yes, certainly.
1:34:18But the enlarged coal market, that is my feeling,
1:34:24will be less inward-looking, more outward-looking, than the common market of the 60-year-old.
1:34:32When we started the common market in the 50s, there was one city involved against that was brought there.
1:34:40They thought the common market would become a continental market.
1:34:45So the big businessmen of that, they were deadly against it.
1:34:48Dutch farmers were poor, but people of that land were wrong, you know.
1:34:54Så de har virkelig brøftet fra Kålmarka i Norsk.
1:34:59Det er deres byggfaktor.
1:35:02Det er virkelig brøftet fra Kålmarka i Norsk.
1:35:10Fantastic!
1:35:11Fantastic!
1:35:13Fantastic!
1:35:14Fantastic!
1:35:15Fantastic!
1:35:18Fantastic!
1:35:38Especially with the OC-3, the way that you always have been used to it.
1:35:42Do you know what I mean?
1:35:45Yes, hello there.
1:35:46How are you?
1:35:52Good to see you.
1:35:57Well, we...
1:35:58I'm glad to hear that you feel that the eventual tendency of the New York will not be turning inward, but turning downward.
1:36:06That's what we have to watch here in this country.
1:36:08You see this?
1:36:09Oh, it's a problem in America.
1:36:10America has a very, very strong protectionist attorney in present time.
1:36:13And we want to continue looking outward.
1:36:16And I think we will.
1:36:26But on the other hand...
1:36:29It takes two to make the deal, and if a new Europe turns for Texas, they're too tough.
1:36:36And if Japan continues to be, as they are, very, very tough.
1:36:40The inevitable reaction here is to react to that.
1:36:44And I think I'm nothing more detrimental to what we were talking about earlier, the necessity for Europe, the United States, Canada, and Japan,
1:36:55to work together in terms of security, et cetera.
1:37:00Because we are basically the three we're in.
1:37:03The three great powers, I guess, as lined up on the other side of the two great Soviet powers.
1:37:12It would be a great tragedy if our competition, which is inevitable, became destructive.
1:37:21That could happen, and that's why it seems that, I think on the monetary thing, I think the group of ten thinks this is a good idea, you know.
1:37:30Yes.
1:37:30Because every time we can bring Japan into a deal, we should.
1:37:33Every time.
1:37:34I mentioned this to both Brokeheath and Brandon also, but you see, whenever you bring Japan into any kind of conversations, parliamentary conversations, economic and personal and monetary, we discuss.
1:37:51You know, the group of ten business and so forth.
1:37:57But because Japan is the only non-white country of the great three countries, and Japan is schizophrenic, Japan's only tie, really, only tie to what we believe in, what you believe in as a European, what I believe in as an American, is frankly very non-exotic.
1:38:21We must, of course, cultivate that.
1:38:23We must not be...
1:38:24Beyond that, you've got to have a political cooperation and so forth.
1:38:34And now that it's 25 years past the war, despite the problems that Korea has visited, most people are ready for it.
1:38:46I mean, they recognize the new...
1:38:49that who Japan can be and will be a very constructive member of the free world community.
1:38:59But the most important thing, we've got to get out of it, because just thinking of Japan, we're tied in.
1:39:11Just thinking of China.
1:39:13More of a question.
1:39:13What a power it could be.
1:39:14Because, my, they're an able people.
1:39:15Oh, they are.
1:39:16We all are.
1:39:17We're all human.
1:39:17They have productivity.
1:39:18Well, it's fantastic.
1:39:20They obviously have bills for the world nowadays.
1:39:24Your property, your people, you either take it or you don't.
1:39:28The Americans, we built our building a couple of days ago.
1:39:30I said, you know, I just want to do it.
1:39:32No, take us, you know, take us out both by the international reform companies.
1:39:38Dutch Channel.
1:39:39Dutch Channel.
1:39:39They buy them.
1:39:40That's a true movement.
1:39:45Could I say, I think it might be useful to you
1:39:49First of all, to say that I would have liked before my visit to Beijing and to Moscow to have had an opportunity to meet Christopher, the heads of all the European countries.
1:40:05I could not, you know, because time did not permit it.
1:40:10I have, as you know, with the three, the Italians we didn't meet with,
1:40:17Because as they're going through that one of those bridges where they don't have a car, it's the most that they don't do well.
1:40:25And over the last year, they've gotten a burden.
1:40:28They're just so treated as though they could not have a car at this time.
1:40:34They've got many more Italian prime ministers and all the good prime ministers in the world, because they have more financial assets and some great people.
1:40:44Anyway, they had to go 12 months ago.
1:40:46She's a fine, very good economist.
1:40:48And you would think they would keep a man like that.
1:40:53You know what the intent is?
1:40:55They need something like a French constitution.
1:41:00They need a strong...
1:41:01As a matter of fact, if you look to the Latin countries in general, the Latin countries, and by the Latin countries I mean Italy, France, this is all Latin, certainly as many, all Latin America, they need basically more of the French Constitution than the American Constitution.
1:41:25You agree?
1:41:25They didn't have, now, I don't mean that he became dictators or anything, but they needed a strong, because they otherwise tended to franken times, to crack like that, and they had to, but France was a disaster, including De Gaulle.
1:41:45De Gaulle's great contribution to France was not a port policy, it was in the spirit of pulling together, giving in and out, but they didn't have government for it.
1:42:21As we look over the security of NATO, at least since I've been here and I've jumped in since then,
1:42:27The Dutch have just been, you've been like rocks.
1:42:31You've been tough, and we appreciate that.
1:42:34You stood out there, and I know you've got a public opinion vote in your country.
1:42:40You've got U.S. strong support.
1:42:43Your country has an outlaw.
1:42:44Of course, it's the movement of Rocio's job to be a fine man.
1:42:48There's a strong, vigorous, articulate man.
1:42:53And so I'm glad that we can have this kind of talk.
1:42:56But I want to say that before going to Peking and Moscow, I think we'll re-run down what I think we're trying to accomplish in both places.
1:43:07The two trips differ very much.
1:43:10They're only alike in one sense, that both are communist countries.
1:43:15But an indication of how different they are is that, and this is ironic, that as far as Egypt is concerned,
1:43:25While there was a time when the United States was considered to be enemy number one in any communist country, we're now number three, and we welcome that, because basically the Russians consider the Chinese to be number one, and the Chinese consider the Russians to be number one.
1:43:42It's gone down the line that the Chinese might think that the Japanese are potentially more ignorant than we are, so to speak.
1:43:51For whatever reason for that,
1:43:54We now come to the Chinese basically as one in which we are trying to start on long road.
1:44:08We do not order over land, neither do they.
1:44:14But we do believe that by starting a long process of some sort of contact, I will say how this treaty will not come to recognition on our part.
1:44:24Because it cannot, since we still recognize Taiwan and will continue to honor our treaty commitments, they know this will not come out.
1:44:32What may come out of it could be however there is some method to engage in the future, some contact in the future.
1:44:42And
1:44:43Perhaps, reducing the chance in the immediate future of a confrontation between the United States, DRC, and Asia, such as we had in Korea, and looking further to the future,
1:45:03When they become a superpower, a nuclear superpower, to be in a position at that time, we will have such relations with them that we can discuss differences in, and not inevitably have a clash.
1:45:22Now, also, no one can look at Asia...
1:45:29And take the Chinese out of it and say you didn't have any policy in the Pacific that will succeed or prevent a war without having the Chinese part of it.
1:45:37Just as cold-blooded as that.
1:45:40This is not done at the expense of the Japanese, it's not done at the expense of any other country, not done at the expense of India, or any other.
1:45:49It is solely a question of the United States looking to the future, our future, as a Pacific power, with the responsibility to try to keep peace in the Pacific.
1:46:00And we cannot leave that responsibility unless we develop some relationship with the Chinese government.
1:46:07And that's what we're doing.
1:46:08So we'll discuss a lot of things.
1:46:10We'll discuss their role in the Pacific and our role in the Pacific.
1:46:13We'll disagree on a lot of things.
1:46:16But the most important thing about that is that it occurs, and that the Chinese and the United States will have begun a process of, shall we say, getting to know each other.
1:46:27Now, this is not said in any sense of sentimentality.
1:46:30There are many people who have looked at China as a...
1:46:34and interpret it exactly the wrong way.
1:46:37They say, oh, this is great.
1:46:39Now in the United States and China, we've never had any differences.
1:46:42Everything's going to be settled.
1:46:44It's not that.
1:46:45No one in this world knows how great the Gulf is between their philosophy and ours, their interests and ours.
1:46:54But also no one in this world, I think, knows better than I do.
1:46:58How imperative it is to see that great nations that have these enormous services, where you've got the nuclear hanging in the mountains, have got to find ways to talk.
1:47:48It's in heaven.
1:47:49If they want to live for 20 years from now, they'll be a superhuman power.
1:47:5220 years from now.
1:47:54And that's what we've got to think about.
1:47:57Not the good people, but what we've got to think about.
1:48:02Now, obviously our Russian friends don't look for any favor on this visit.
1:48:07Not because they didn't wear out their hands.
1:48:12But because they are sort of paranoid about the Chinese as the Chinese are about them, we're seeing how they are.
1:48:19My total line, both the Russians and the Chinese, is that we're seeking good bilateral relations, both.
1:48:28Without making any chance for the other.
1:48:32It may be helpful for them one day.
1:48:35Who's your attack?
1:48:38You see, the problem they have, the Russians, let's suppose, let's suppose that China's isolation is contained.
1:48:48What kind of world are we going to have 15 years from now?
1:48:55All right.
1:48:55The Russians...
1:48:56A huge border, standing there, and a hostile enemy.
1:49:02The United States, far across the sea, having fought with Korea and directly with Vietnam, and Japan, an ally of the United States, India, whom they despised, also an enemy.
1:49:15What had happened?
1:49:19What had happened to them?
1:49:20could be the very congregation without them.
1:49:23You see, so somebody has got the right to do that thing.
1:49:26I'm talking to the papers.
1:49:28They're papers, militarily.
1:49:30I mean, because the...
1:49:33But we, because they know that we are their only rival in the superpower game, except the Russians, that might threaten them.
1:49:44We are the ones who have to do the deal.
1:49:46That's the way it is.
1:49:48So you've got to look at it that way, too.
1:49:51In fair, that's a deal.
1:49:53I really ask you to help, sir, with Preston.
1:49:56Also, you are going to talk with him.
1:50:01I've seen your budget yesterday.
1:50:04You have increased your defense budget.
1:50:06Yes, sir.
1:50:08And that is, I said to the Secretary of State yesterday, that is very courageous, that it will help us in Europe too, you know.
1:50:16Ha!
1:50:16We increase our country to a percentage, a percentage too, for the first time.
1:50:21It's never pleasant for you to do.
1:50:22No, no, no.
1:50:22We can't help you.
1:50:23And I want to say, but I'm saying, what you're talking about, one day, when the NATO countries have that billion dollars, you know, that holds in arms for a year at this time.
1:50:30Oh, yes.
1:50:30Otherwise, people would say, you know, we've got the man's human right, and all these other things, which
1:50:38You're foolish.
1:50:40But nevertheless, I have great support.
1:50:41People like to bring home two or three divisions, and put the money into the ghettos.
1:50:46Well, that's my answer.
1:50:47You're not going to have any ghettos or any cities at all.
1:50:50You know, you must have a bit of defense, but these arguments fall on deaf ears.
1:50:55In your country, some places, and in ours, too.
1:50:59Now, on the other side of the coin, now that you've had your budget, the Russian visit is a very different one.
1:51:07It is highly subjective.
1:51:09We have relations with the Russians.
1:51:11We talk with them all the time.
1:51:14In the time that I've been here, we've had differences, but we've avoided confrontation.
1:51:18But the Russians, of course, are interested in any number of subjects.
1:51:24They're interested in trade, they're interested in the Middle East, they're interested in...
1:51:33arms control, as we are, as we're negotiating to solve.
1:51:37And of course, we're vital to Europe.
1:51:40Now I would start with others, and actually, whatever subjects are still open at that point, like our arms limitation, these, trade, of course, will definitely be discussed, and maybe some arms will be made.
1:51:59However, on the other side of the coin, I would have to accept
1:52:03As far as Europe is concerned, our line is very rigid, and we are not going to percapitate like any other.
1:52:17We have no intention, whatever, of allowing that to be a subject for discussion with that.
1:52:22Well, that's something we've got to work out on ourselves before it's discussed with anybody else.
1:52:27And so, that's how... And also, in terms of arms competition, as you know, your government has been briefed on our assault.
1:52:36They've written down why, as the other NATO countries.
1:52:40Under no circumstances...
1:52:41We allow our arms limitation talks to in any way compromise our NATO commitment.
1:52:53Now, they constantly are trying to break any forces and weapons and so forth that really apply to NATO.
1:53:02In other words, to get us to Knoxville.
1:53:03And we constantly know that's not the subject we're here to discuss.
1:53:08We're discussing...
1:53:10a limitation of those arms that have to do with the ability of each of the two powers to bring the beauty to each other, and not anything that would affect our relations with NATO.
1:53:28Now, as far as the Russian business is concerned, I heard Kim said that it would be very hard for him, here again,
1:53:41We all have to realize, there's that old song, you know, one of our musical comics, I'm getting to know you, and there are many naive people.
1:53:58If you just get to know people, you won't have any differences.
1:54:02My God, some of the worst differences are on married people that know each other too well.
1:54:07Getting to know you doesn't solve problems.
1:54:09Getting to know you just simply may provide a method to discuss the problems.
1:54:17Now, we know the Russians will.
1:54:19They know us will.
1:54:20And where I think this summit, or whatever it's called, may have a chance for substantive success where others have not, is that it will be highly regrettable.
1:54:32I know them, and they don't need, I don't say this in any sense, either of what you know because of my background and theirs, and we have been very forthright about it.
1:54:44We haven't had any collusion.
1:54:45We say, look, we do have some differences, and you want something different based on the media.
1:54:50As far as I'm concerned, they wanted to ban Joe Ruskin, we want one over them.
1:54:57So we both recognize that.
1:54:58So we bargain hard to see that neither gets it.
1:55:01And that's the only way to make a deal anyway.
1:55:04And so far as Europe is concerned, we actually say, look, we're not going to go here and talk with you about how we're going to send out our friends.
1:55:12I mean, that's another matter.
1:55:15In the future, maybe we can talk about that.
1:55:17One other subject I should mention to you, which is a very lively subject in Europe and all the other in the state of racing in America, and that's the European Security Conference.
1:55:29Bill Rogers has probably spoken to you about it.
1:55:33The point is there that they have talked about the European Security Conference but our view is that
1:55:41That's something that is still down the pike road.
1:55:45I mean, it is ready to move it.
1:55:50It's something that certainly can be explored on a bilateral basis in discussions among various people.
1:55:58We've got to find out.
1:56:00I think we've got to examine what we think can come out of it, what good purpose it can serve.
1:56:08Now, in Western Europe, there are varying views on this, varying views of intensity.
1:56:15Italians are very strong for it, and several others are.
1:56:21At the issue meeting this afternoon, Mr. Chairman,
1:57:01For that reason, our view is deliberately unopposed.
1:57:15We will consider it, but we're not going to buy into it.
1:57:24We think what is most important is for us to remember that the security of Europe
1:57:30is what has kept the peace and kept Europe free for the last 25 years.
1:57:35That must not be compromised.
1:57:38If that is compromised, then this could all unravel, particularly the German problem, right in the heart.
1:57:45So therefore, what we have to do is to maintain
1:57:49That basic security here, that's why NATO is still supporting.
1:57:52It doesn't mean that forever you're going to have to have a huge budget to maintain forces in Europe and the rest of it.
1:57:59Maybe there is going to come a time.
1:58:02I don't know how many years.
1:58:04But we can see some limitations in this area.
1:58:08Certainly we're willing to talk about it.
1:58:10But at this particular point, we've got to look at the other side, what they're up to.
1:58:15And as far as our Russian friends are concerned,
1:58:18Their aim is to take off the Germans.
1:58:26What do you think?
1:58:28Yes, I think you are right.
1:58:33That's always the nature of them.
1:58:36To get loose Europe from human distinction.
1:58:42I should not hold your peace in that nowadays.
1:58:45Yeah, they would like to have, they would like to have Europe in an archipelago that's owned by most of the European nation, and the most of the United States.
1:59:01Therefore, the end of your discussions are also of vital importance.
1:59:05Of course, for the European Union.
1:59:08You can be sure of those things.
1:59:11We looked at all the schemes.
1:59:13How do you like it?
1:59:15I might say we just haven't seen one yet that is not going to be at our disadvantage.
1:59:22Have you any idea about the timing and the linking of any of our discussions at a European security conference?
1:59:29We're very cautious about this.
1:59:31Very cautious about it.
1:59:36I think we've got to sort out ourselves first.
1:59:39Yeah.
1:59:40I don't think there should be...
1:59:42I think there shouldn't be a linkage between NBFR and NBFR.
1:59:47When I say linkage, we couldn't put the two in the back.
1:59:50I think we should consider both separately.
1:59:56But on NBFR, as Al said, what we have to do is to sort out that problem
2:00:05among ourselves to see what kind of a formula we could agree to that would not lead us vis-à-vis the law.
2:00:14That's what we have to do.
2:00:15And we have not yet found such a formula yet.
2:00:17And Rosio Mission is looking around at this.
2:00:20Now, the European Security Conference is another subject.
2:00:26I think you should be treated as another subject.
2:00:29Because I think if you confuse the two, or mix the two,
2:00:35That the inevitable result would be to say, well, they have a European Security Conference, and then maybe the VFR doesn't make much difference.
2:00:48And I think the European Security Conference, which has nothing to do with security, it has to do with culture and a lot of other things.
2:00:53I think so far.
2:00:55Do you know anything else about it?
2:00:57Well, I think that all of the data will probably be related somewhere down the line.
2:01:05Oh yeah, they talk about that.
2:01:09But at the present time, if you look at the decomposed agenda that they have,
2:01:15And we don't, when Jamaica was there, we went, well, what's the agenda?
2:01:19I said, well, that's what everybody was very good at, a conference, and what's going to come out of it?
2:01:27And, in a sense, at this point, I would have to say, I don't mean that this will always be the case, because eventually there will be a European security.
2:01:43They're looking sometimes.
2:01:44They're looking at us.
2:01:45They're positive.
2:01:48You know what I mean?
2:01:49They are.
2:01:49And also, I must say, I feel for those people in Eastern Europe, those countries.
2:01:54If there's anything that touches Congress, do that.
2:01:57But that's where I, I mean, I've been to most of those countries, as I'm sure you have.
2:02:01God, when I head to the polls, I'm not thinking of their governments, but the polls, the Romanians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the rest of the great people.
2:02:08You know, here they are.
2:02:09All over the video.
2:02:11At the present time, all that I have been able to see as far as I can for Europeans,
2:02:29That's what we have to do.
2:02:30And we have not yet found such a formula yet.
2:02:32And the Rosio mission is looking around with this and that.
2:02:35Now, the European Security Conference is another subject.
2:02:41I think you'd be treated as another subject.
2:02:44Because I think if you confuse the two, or mix the two, that the inevitable result would be to say, well, we have a European Security Conference,
2:02:59Maybe the VFR is something much different.
2:03:02And I think the European Security Conference, which has nothing to do with security.
2:03:06It has to do with culture and a lot of other things.
2:03:11I think so far.
2:03:12Do you know of anything else?
2:03:14Well, I think, ultimately, they'll probably be related somewhere down the line.
2:03:18Oh, yeah, they talk about that.
2:03:20We've got to reach a different direction.
2:03:23But at the present time, at the present time, to look at decomposing the agenda that they have,
2:03:29And we don't, when Jamaica was there, we might as well, but what's the agenda?
2:03:35That's what everybody was very good at, the conference, and what's going to come out of it?
2:03:42And in a sense, at this point, I would have to say, I don't mean that this will always be the case.
2:03:54Because eventually there will be a European Security Conference, I think.
2:03:58There will be some time.
2:03:59There will be.
2:03:59And that and a strong position.
2:04:01There possibly should be.
2:04:02Also should be.
2:04:03There should be.
2:04:04You know what I mean?
2:04:06There are.
2:04:06And also, I must say, I feel for those people of Eastern Europe.
2:04:09of those countries.
2:04:09If there's anything that such a conference could do, that's where I, I mean, I've been to most of those countries, as I'm sure you have.
2:04:16Got my head in the polls, I'm not thinking of their governments, but the Poles, the Rumainsians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the rest of the great people, you know, here they are.
2:04:24All of them, you know, and so if we could in any way that we could level that a bit, I'd be for.
2:04:29But at the present time, all that I have been able to see as far as an enchantment for European security conference would indicate
2:04:38that our friends on the other side would like to have it for the sake of having a meeting.
2:04:43Now, we have that kind of a conference for the sake of having a meeting.
2:04:46That's to their interest, not to ours.
2:04:49What we have to do is to get some fairly specific things that might come out.
2:04:55There might be, for example, more communication, more trade, more...
2:05:01a few other things, eventually perhaps the problem of security.
2:05:08But again, we must buy a conference with the thought that that's the
2:05:15that solves these this enormous problem the division of europe uh the germans of course are the one i imagine the titans the germans have a tremendous goal in that respect because you know brown actually being a harder possible taking the risk
2:05:34But our attitude, as I emphasize, and as Rogers will also very much share, is our attitude is one that when we talk to our European friends is,
2:05:49And EFR, we're taking a very hard look at it to try to see if among ourselves we can find any kind of a market that we can offer.
2:06:01And that's what we should say.
2:06:03That also helps you in terms of your domestic.
2:06:06We're looking into that.
2:06:07Let's not do anything illiterate.
2:06:10We'll do it all together.
2:06:10And we won't delay.
2:06:12If we weaken the alliance, it's going to be those who might oppose us.
2:06:16As far as the European Security Conference is concerned, well, it's an interesting idea.
2:06:20Interesting idea.
2:06:21But as far as, as General Manchin, that we must see, we must see on ourselves what might come out, what can be discovered.
2:06:33When you say to the European, what it should be capital,
2:06:36Just a little.
2:06:37Yeah, that we, on our part, do not see that this, see, yeah, that we have to take a poll, we have to be able to be a part of it.
2:06:46Now, that doesn't say we won't, does it?
2:06:50But it just says take your time.
2:06:51Yes, take your time and see what we're buying here.
2:06:56And, uh...
2:06:58Yes, that's another conference we get in the course of 72, and that is what we call a summit, and that is the conference of the heads of state, heads of governments of the
2:07:18You call the market companies.
2:07:21In the second half of the year, where will they be?
2:07:25I don't know.
2:07:26Not yet fixed.
2:07:34I think that conference will, before we officially start with the new members, might be useful, especially for what might be useful this time.
2:07:51also to discuss our relationship with other parts of the world, the United States, the communist countries, and Japan, and the developed countries, you know, that might be useful.
2:08:07I think that will be useful.
2:08:08That'll be a very fascinating topic.
2:08:10You know, the reason I was not really in a position to suggest a headache or something,
2:08:20I don't think you can have that conference in any one of the four, like London, Paris, Milan, or Rome, because, you know, you should have it in one of the countries that are small, one of the smaller countries.
2:08:34Right.
2:08:35Yes, although you have to go right over the stairs, you can have it in Brussels, you can have it in Luxembourg, you can even have it in Strasbourg.
2:08:42Well, I mean, you...
2:08:45I think you're the only, as I said, and I'm so glad because of your schedule that I have on the agency, but I think you're the only
2:09:12I'm very grateful, I'm very grateful.
2:09:18We were lucky last night, you know, we had a dinner.
2:09:36That's it.
2:09:37Oh, I know you are, Master.
2:09:40We saw your television broadcast together with your secretary of state.
2:09:44Yeah, and Mr. Mansfield was there.
2:09:46Yeah, yeah.
2:09:47That was quite interesting.
2:09:48Yeah, yes.
2:09:50And that was the compliment, you know, for the way you did it.
2:09:54I did it right there.
2:09:55Oh, you did it there.
2:09:56I did it there.
2:09:57The cameras here.
2:09:58Yes, yes.
2:09:58As you know, you have been in politics for a long time.
2:10:13It's about 15 drafts.
2:10:13I do a lot of, I do writing myself a lot.
2:10:17Because if I have to get it in my own idiom, is other people's writing is more elegant.
2:10:25In your own, it's got to be the way I say it.
2:10:27The people know how I talk.
2:10:30So I use my own cool expressions.
2:10:33That's what he said, wasn't it?
2:10:35That's what he said, wasn't it?
2:10:39Yeah, I talked to Robert, to Robert this morning, and also last night.
2:10:47And he said, he told me that they're with you.
2:10:49He told me, he told me, he said, you know, this is very interesting, the television that they're asking, but...
2:10:57This is amazing.
2:10:58I've noticed this shit in politics.
2:11:01It's just, it's just communication.
2:11:03I mean, every reason I've been able to, it's just buttered up the press.
2:11:09We have, we can impress them.
2:11:11It matters, really.
2:11:13But television is it, isn't it?
2:11:15We have weekly camera sessions, and every Friday evening I'm live on television to report on our decisions.
2:11:22You go on, on live television?
2:11:25On live, and then I'm interviewed by my friend, by the progressive voice of the television.
2:11:33They're growing and growing now.
2:11:36I know all of those.
2:11:37Has your television stayed in control?
2:11:39No.
2:11:40Good.
2:11:41I mean, I said good.
2:11:43I mean, ours is... We have low government companies, bureaucracy companies, but also with problems.
2:11:51All of them are problems.
2:11:55But I have to hear all of you say very progressive.
2:11:59They are, they are.
2:12:00But that's part of the grief.
2:12:04But I have a feeling that you're...
2:12:08Your plan for peace last night will be welcomed and will be judged positively in Europe.
2:12:15That's my feeling.
2:12:15That's my feeling.
2:12:17Well, let me say, especially about what you said also about free elections now.
2:12:24Well, we've gone really as far as we can.
2:12:26We've got two of our bases all set down a month before the international body.
2:12:32They'll run the elections.
2:12:35They get a free shot at it.
2:12:37Let me say that I would anticipate that our Vietnamese will reject it.
2:12:41That's what they always do first.
2:12:44They will give us a pop, or give Tom Kinn on a pop in the next two or three months.
2:12:49But then they've got to look down that.
2:12:52barrel and decide, are they going to fight forever, or are they going to take a deal?
2:12:58Because they can't win now, mind you.
2:13:01The South Vietnamese are strong enough, with our continued assistance, to defend themselves and so on from that.
2:13:11But North Vietnam, I think, is going to have to make the decision, and North Korea many, many years ago, that they're going to have to live with the situation for a while.
2:13:20But whether, when, where, if you want to do that, there needs to be a state.
2:13:24But we have to set the position ourselves.
2:13:27But the essential part of your plan is, if I understand it well, is we leave six months after the political agreement.
2:13:37We go to land.
2:13:39Oh, no, no, no.
2:13:40First of all, it's a good reason to try it.
2:13:42And the thing is that we are going to continue, of course, in our assistance to South Vietnam, economically, because after all, the Russians and the Chinese are continuing their assistance to North Vietnam.
2:13:58We trust eventually that we can come down some.
2:14:08I'll take you out of your car here.
2:14:40Three minutes.
2:15:40Well, I've got to say, uh, I've had a look up, and I just want to mention that, uh, I plan to be doing a more extensive circle, like, uh, on this trail, uh, in the spring, I guess.
2:15:55Oh, you do?
2:15:55In account of the, you know, that you make.
2:15:57Like your old self, huh?
2:15:59Well, whatever you want it to be, it's up to you, Bill.
2:16:01You know, we, what you want to say, or, you know, it's your choice.
2:16:05I appreciate it.
2:16:06But it's, uh, we, we need your advice.
2:16:08But I think that, uh,
2:16:09jurors such as Hallberg before.
2:16:11I'm afraid that my jury said that these new complicated laws push them.
2:16:16Well, that's my question.
2:16:18I mean, they have to organize all 30 states now, like I said.
2:16:24So I don't know.
2:16:25Well, no, Jerry, no.
2:16:26We're going to have a poll now.
2:16:27We can't tell you.
2:16:29We're working on the forms.
2:16:30Yeah, I worked with Jerry this week.
2:16:33But listen, I need you to send your pictures.
2:16:35Yeah, there was no question.
2:16:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:16:38He got an answer.
2:16:40Oh, he told me.
2:16:41That's the reply.
2:16:42Oh, that's right.
2:16:43So I'll work it out.
2:16:45I'll work it out.
2:16:46Before I announce, we shall talk to you about the news.
2:16:50All right.
2:16:50whether that's later in the spring.
2:16:52Because the school season is probably around June 1st.
2:16:55Look, we won't say a thing.
2:16:57But as soon as you're ready, you let us know, and we'll try to have a successor ready and all that sort of thing.
2:17:03And if I'm leaving today in June, would I announce, whether we can announce in advance, what would be the proper time?
2:17:12What do you think, Al?
2:17:14Oh, I think much later now, maybe in another...
2:17:20two months.
2:17:20We should have it back in a month, two months.
2:17:26I think a month.
2:17:27What do you want?
2:17:27I would like to announce it a month in advance.
2:17:30I'd like to work with Morty Stantz and Jerry.
2:17:32Fine.
2:17:33You work out with Morty Stantz.
2:17:35You work out with Morty and Jerry.
2:17:37Why don't you like to have an announcement and so forth.
2:17:43You tell us what to do.
2:17:44You work out the details.
2:17:46I've never been better at it.
2:17:49I think with the Dutch, and I think that they're very impressed with you, particularly the last six years.
2:18:02Bill, you've got a money clip.
2:18:05One of my money clips that I had.
2:18:10You know, I thought that would be nice.
2:18:13I did.
2:18:14Can I talk you down some money?
2:18:16Yes.
2:18:17These are new.
2:18:17These are the best they can give away.
2:18:23It's a presidential seal.
2:18:24And it's only for the greatest money.
2:19:11I ran into the police.
2:19:13It's your brother, huh?
2:19:16All of them's gone to a board of trustees meeting at 10 o'clock.
2:20:34C.A.
2:20:34Scott.
2:20:35He is the editor of the Atlanta Daily World.
2:20:39That's 404-659-1110.
2:21:03I guess it's trying to get out of my face.
2:21:06Oh, y'all.
2:21:29I'll tell you what, I'm sure you've heard of it.
2:21:31It's one of Santa's.
2:21:32That's a really, it's a very nice one over here.
2:21:36It's really, well, I don't know if it's good, but it's wild and it's standing strong today.
2:21:45I don't know if it's good, but it's hard to get to eat it.
2:21:50It's not good in the United States when you get a border.
2:22:37Oh, just to leave some room for the doctor, I assume.
2:23:41I thought this was great, but I bet it called me a mess, though, for each of us, and that was fantastic, by the way.
2:24:05You know, the way that we, that I do those, or as Henry was saying, you know, that someday they've got to write a little story about how you do, how much work you do.
2:24:15You do more work in speeches, of course, than whatever few in the old days did.
2:24:18Some presidents wrote their speeches, Wilson wrote his, some I did, and so did G.R., and I write some of mine.
2:24:25But, he said that no modern president has ever
2:24:29I've done the enormous work on it, but you know it pays off, because I get out the stuff that doesn't fit me, and I get it boiled down and boiled down.
2:24:38You notice how we cut that damn thing down.
2:24:40Oh yeah, well, and you have to do it to get it to sound like... You've got to cut it, and cut it, and cut it, and finally get it down to something that's...
2:24:49Right.
2:24:50So your brother's going to...
2:24:52He called right away, so he comes to the parlor.
2:25:12You know, I just wanted to tell you that I am very sorry to hear about your brother's death.
2:25:20And also to tell you too that Stan is just doing a fine job on our staff here.
2:25:33Well, yeah.
2:25:35He's a fine young man.
2:26:10Yes, I know they, I know you were very close to him.
2:26:15Well, yeah.
2:26:19Would you tell them that I called and express my sympathy, please?
2:26:25Bye, Mr. Scott.
2:26:40And the Yolks and the Buchanans, and they had Mary Totner and Nancy.
2:26:45Who's Nancy?
2:26:46Who was it?
2:26:46His wife.
2:26:48I think it's like, oh, I forgot his wife.
2:26:51She's a lady.
2:26:52She's the next wife.
2:26:54And they seem very happy.
2:26:55I hope they are.
2:26:57They're really very happy.
2:26:58She's an attractive girl.
2:27:00Very attractive.
2:27:02She has two daughters, I think.
2:27:05One in high school.
2:27:11I thought you might want to write a little sedative pad or something like that on the corner.
2:27:16Not with mine, I'm not going to take that one.
2:27:54And someone suggested, you know, that now that John McCormick's wife has gone, maybe he would come something at night, but you had suggested maybe having her, you know, in to spend the night.
2:28:07You don't want to do that before there is time to trip, do you?
2:28:20And, General McCoy sent me the letter that I must have gotten yesterday, while I was not secretly, again, suggesting a meeting.
2:28:27I just gave that to Kissinger, don't I?
2:28:29You don't want to read his letter, do you?
2:28:32General McCoy.
2:28:35And, you know, the advisory committee on arms control and disarmament.
2:28:45And, we need to do an autograph for a picture of
2:28:49Carswell.
2:28:50Somebody had to judge Carswell, and I was pleased and honored to force you that, because I didn't cut you into that deal.
2:28:57Oh, quite right.
2:28:58I wanted to judge, uh, what's his... Harold.
2:29:02Not judge him, I see.
2:29:04What is his name?
2:29:05He tracks them off.
2:29:06Harold?
2:29:07Harold Carswell.
2:29:08Yes.
2:29:08Appreciation for his, for his, uh...
2:29:23is funded for his outstanding and dedicated service to the nation of the Spine.
2:29:47I have out there for you.
2:29:49Oh, somebody wrote... Oh, you might have to read Dan Beattie's letters sometime.
2:29:54I'll put it in there if I have to.
2:29:56Dan Beattie's required.
2:29:57You know, the publisher of that Orville...
2:29:59He's still living.
2:30:00Yeah.
2:30:00Oh, yeah, and he's having a good editorial all the time.
2:30:02And I've written him, and you've written him.
2:30:04We've sent letters to him.
2:30:05We've sent it here.
2:30:07And he's just a cute old man.
2:30:10Yeah, we just sent him several letters.
2:30:14That's why he's saying he doesn't send them in four letters.
2:30:20In a column that somebody sent to me, Mrs. Marksburn said something about they hadn't been back yet, or they couldn't make it to Julie's wedding and so forth.
2:30:34I think I've been to the Western White House either, she says.
2:30:38I don't know why they tell people that.
2:30:42She doesn't sound critical.
2:30:44No, she wouldn't.
2:30:45She just was asked, and they asked.
2:30:50Yeah.
2:30:51I don't know what she's to do when they come.
2:30:56I don't know what to do.
2:30:57I'll take this call and say that if they are coming... That call that we have, we have a band, we have church services, and...
2:31:06But they might want to be here for one of those.
2:31:08I think that's the thing they'd like the best.
2:31:10Of course, if they come, we'd have to have them for lunch.
2:31:13Well, that's terrible.
2:31:14There's just no time.
2:31:16Well, I wouldn't mind.
2:31:17I think what I should do is have them let us know if they plan to check back in.
2:31:21We would like to see them.
2:31:24There might be a special event.
2:31:26They're wanting to give tickets to the Kennedy Center.
2:31:29Come on in.
2:31:30Do you agree?
2:31:31Yes, sir.
2:31:31And that, for example, that there are going to be, you know, complimentary tickets for the Deputy Senator and a door to the White House, of course, you know, special tours and so forth, and I hope they can do that.
2:31:48I don't question why else they ought to be, I don't know.
2:31:52I just think somebody just ought to, but we're not there.
2:31:56They call us to the well-earned place.
2:31:58Ask your papa to do that.
2:32:00He ought to, right?
2:32:40This is a paperweight outfit.
2:32:42I don't know if you just want to go around with one of those eyes and hearts.
2:32:49I'll keep it here.
2:32:52Okay.
2:32:53You've had it for quite a while, Tex McCrary.
2:32:56I have a pretty, a beautiful box that Tom Pappas brought you from the head of the Greek Orthodox Church.
2:33:03Oh, yeah.
2:33:03I'll, sometime today, I'd like to show you that before Tom Pappas comes.
2:33:07He's coming with that dance.
2:33:08He's got all of them now.
2:33:09Okay.
2:33:11We're going to see.
2:33:12Because you need to, and he can't have them.
2:33:15He's coming tonight, tomorrow, right?
2:33:18Friday night.
2:33:18Friday night, good.
2:33:19Did you get a good list?
2:33:22I just typically want to say that the one that Bob Halton gave me...
2:33:27But you've got a post list as much as you could.
2:33:30And they are having this party for some of the others, you know.
2:33:33Yeah.
2:33:33Great.
2:33:34And they'll come in for the... Yeah, I'll talk to them and bring them in.
2:33:41And the only people that are in the past as a contractor will host it.
2:33:46Because all those people will know each other.
2:33:49Did Alice Hoffman get invited or not?
2:33:52Yes, she was not on the list, and after you mentioned that, I had them call her, and she'd come.
2:33:57That's great.
2:33:57A lot of the people who were suggested the first time... Dead.
2:34:01Well, they're out of town and so forth, like Goldwater and Brooke and... A lot of them.
2:34:08Two or three or four senators.
2:34:09We only had one congressman.
2:34:12I don't care what it was.
2:34:13Goldwater, come in.
2:34:16Brooke, Johnny Brooke, come in.
2:34:22All right.
2:34:24I just wanted to give you a brief report.
2:34:27The best job he's done since he's been here.
2:34:33He first of all outlined with great clarity and good feeling and passion, you know, conveying your feeling and your determination and so forth.
2:34:44Read your letter.
2:34:48We had still taken, but we did not use it.
2:34:53Well, it was a close call.
2:34:55You know, afterwards, we thought, well, we blew it because we didn't have the TV cameras on.
2:35:01But I don't think he would have presented himself as well with the TV cameras.
2:35:09But he went through and read the communications that you had sent, talking about Dr. Kissinger and the feeling.
2:35:15And he said he started off in a way that,
2:35:18conveyed the sincerity and determination to achieve a just and workable solution, recognizing their side.
2:35:26And so they did an excellent job.
2:35:27And then he went through and said, here's where we are today.
2:35:31Here's where we stand.
2:35:35Here's where we're going.
2:35:37And then he went through and recapped the position that you presented last night with great clarity.
2:35:43And what he felt the
2:35:45The Future Held, and then he went through a little bit of the progress of the series of negotiations.
2:35:51And he spoke for about 45 minutes, which was good.
2:35:55Because he didn't, you know, it took him a while to read that.
2:35:58It took him a while to explain it all.
2:36:06Then he told them a little bit about how, just for three minutes, which there was total silence in the room, about how he got there.
2:36:13How did he explain it?
2:36:14Well, he said that the military aircraft... Just so you know, we're not talking behind your back.
2:36:19I think you should consider it, too, as you know.
2:36:22The ambassador would say to me, he said, he did the best job that he has ever done.
2:36:34Is that what you told me?
2:36:34Yes, sir.
2:36:36You said that he was lying.
2:36:38Well, I told you that he was lying.
2:36:40Go ahead.
2:36:40Tell me about the three minutes.
2:36:41What did he say?
2:36:42Well, he told them, and Helen Thomas, I think we're going to have to remove the chair, but Helen Thomas asked the question.
2:36:49Right, yes, sir.
2:36:51How he got in, and Henry said, well, I don't want to get into details because we want to maintain the channel, but generally we flew in military aircraft to a field, and then we transferred to other airplanes, and then we ended up in smaller airports that are seldom used.
2:37:11You could see everyone saying, my God, this is what it's like out of a movie.
2:37:15And he said we stayed on the outskirts of the town, and...
2:37:20The other side made the arrangements for the meeting place, which never became known.
2:37:26And he said, when he was there in July on his round-the-world trip, that it was particularly difficult because he was there openly.
2:37:32He did point out that he'd been there after he came on the way back.
2:37:35He said, you got that out of the state, but you got that out of the state.
2:37:39Remember how the son of the rich said, why didn't you, your kind of a ministerial should have stopped the mosque.
2:37:47And, you know,
2:37:50Well, that was basically it.
2:37:53He took 15 minutes of questions off you.
2:37:58But the interesting thing, Henry, and you weren't out there, but when Scott, and it was a lot of the same group, when Scott and Ford went out to the press room, you could sense a few of them going to the judge, well, is it true that you never offered a
2:38:19Fixed date just in exchange for POWs.
2:38:22Well, when you were finished, you did get that question.
2:38:26Because it was explained so clearly.
2:38:28In other words, the fact that in November we offered for exchange of POWs a ceasefire, we would be out by August.
2:38:37So that statement in itself fixed in their mind the fact that yes, indeed, if they would have agreed to give us our prisoners back at a ceasefire, that
2:38:50Why do we ask for a ceasefire?
2:38:54But he covers it.
2:38:55You see, the point is, on this proposal, nothing but the ceasefire is agreed to anyway.
2:39:02That's not the problem.
2:39:03We're not asking for anything that they didn't agree to.
2:39:10We're in good shape on that.
2:39:12I think the government is going to have one hell of a time.
2:39:16No, he didn't ask, but Henry hit it because he said...
2:39:20He went for about four minutes on the overthrow, indirect, direct overthrow.
2:39:25And on the indirect, he talked about the aid he'd be taking away.
2:39:29But on the direct overthrow, he said, they left it to our own.
2:39:32They were gracious enough to leave it to us.
2:39:35They didn't tell us how to do it, but they said we should do it.
2:39:38And I said, now, we are trying to protect the confidentiality of this channel.
2:39:43We want to say no more than is necessary for the American public to have a clear opinion.
2:39:48So I hope we won't be foolish in approving what we have said.
2:39:51But you can.
2:39:52But we can.
2:39:54On your behalf.
2:39:55So... Well this, the thing about this rock is that what Henry just said there
2:40:03And this all goes back, incidentally, uh, remember I told you, you didn't know what Henry and I were up to, but I told you to forget that goddamn, you've never heard about any faction anyway.
2:40:13But I said, it's all going to wash out.
2:40:14Do you realize what this does to the Indian-Pakistan ship?
2:40:18Sure.
2:40:18Do you also realize what this team does to the Batman in the future when they say, well, are you telling the truth?
2:40:26when we say, well, maybe we're doing something else.
2:40:28They're going to be very, very respectful of what even they can write.
2:40:32I dropped the seeds of a few more things in that respect, because they said, you want to say what you discussed in Peking?
2:40:39I said, we won't discuss our efforts with respect to any other government on this affair, because those possibilities are still open.
2:40:47The other point, sir, was silence, too.
2:40:49Very, very well said.
2:40:51quiet in the room was when he said, well, they may ask why we have an eight-point proposal, why the President put forth an eight-point proposal, and they had a nine-point proposal that they gave to us secretly.
2:41:02And then you indicated we could not agree to the assistance.
2:41:07To reparations.
2:41:08The only reason we have eight and they have nine is because we forgot reparations as part of the settlement.
2:41:15We can't pay reparations.
2:41:16But
2:41:17But before you went to but, you can see, oh, there it is.
2:41:21And then Henry went, but we told them that we were prepared to, that the president's personal commitment to involving the, and more so to... Is that your father?
2:41:38Three times I said that.
2:41:40No, they didn't.
2:41:42They didn't.
2:41:45They didn't.
2:41:46I just want to say before you say, this is very bad.
2:42:11And this had a stand, so I was coming across.
2:42:14So that's probably very valuable.
2:42:18Up to what?
2:42:18Up to the bottom.
2:42:20In the bottom.
2:42:20So I don't know if I'm going to send this to cover the metal, but I think you ought to see that before we talk about it.
2:42:31Should I send this over to the presentation?
2:42:35I don't think that's right.
2:42:51Yeah, I'd like for her to... Could you hold it and send it to Julius here?
2:42:55Because Julius is going to be enthusiastic about it.
2:43:00Well, I'll send it over.
2:43:02I'll send the little one.
2:43:03Send the little one over and send the other one too.
2:43:05So now you can say, Tom, have us send this.
2:43:08As a matter of fact, you ought to tell her on the phone that it's a hell of an issue and it's worth, you know, $50,000 or some damn thing.
2:43:14So the real problem is maybe $25,000.
2:43:22How much of that stuff do you sort of take off before you ever get into here?
2:43:27You know, I usually get wonderful things.
2:43:32They sent me, you know, the peaches from Oregon.
2:43:36They used to send me some magnificent pineapple from Hawaii and the rest of it.
2:43:41God, I never hear about it.
2:43:43I caught it the other day.
2:43:45I stalked somebody, you know, and said they'd been to Rose's place, their apartment.
2:43:49I think you should have seen the marble sprues and all the shit that stayed in Kansas City.
2:43:54And I didn't see it.
2:43:55There we go.
2:43:56That ain't supposed to come to me.
2:43:57She takes off.
2:43:58That's what it is.
2:43:59That doesn't even get as high as me.
2:44:01Well, just don't get caught stealing.
2:44:08Don't mind anybody stealing, but don't get caught.
2:44:10I try not to.
2:44:11All right.
2:44:13But then they go ahead and they, but then they were pretty funny.
2:44:18You know, I thought they were funny to expect for the question.
2:44:22They were?
2:44:23Absolutely.
2:44:23They were.
2:44:24Well, but...
2:44:25I don't know about that.
2:44:26There have been times that... What I've had is in this instance, this instance, God damn it, they're picking away at it.
2:44:34You know, I already nailed it at the last legislative meeting, and when I made the point, I said, now let's understand the kinds of people that we're trying to appeal to.
2:44:43I said, you know, I will not like this because their goal, of course, is something that we cannot give at the overthrow of the government, or a change of government, I'm going to call it.
2:44:54As far as our domestic critic is concerned, there are some honest people, and there's a reason I said that, there were two degrees in that room, that voted for the goddamn Mansfield Amendment, who felt that we had the better of each side, but who now can be and may be satisfied, so we must go for that.
2:45:12However, there are others who, for different reasons in Hanoi,
2:45:16But people who think it was a mistake for Kennedy ever to get us involved, and I, of course, think of that every time.
2:45:22It's not 16,000 per person, it's Vietnam.
2:45:26People like the governor, who honestly oppose it all along, who frankly don't want us
2:45:34And those people are going to criticize this for another reason.
2:45:38So you can't win them.
2:45:39On the other hand, the greater majority should be for it.
2:45:42And I think that's a powerful thing.
2:45:44One thing I heard today in this briefing was a number of the commentators I heard this morning said, why do you have such a complicated plan?
2:45:53Why didn't you choose a simple one?
2:45:54I said, no, I want you to know that I didn't do it.
2:45:59This plan is complicated because it follows the outline.
2:46:03They wanted it this way.
2:46:04We came in with a proposal which was very simple.
2:46:09Prisoners.
2:46:10Prisoners cease fire and withdraw.
2:46:12They never said cease fire is wrong.
2:46:15They never said this or that.
2:46:17What they said was it must have political elements.
2:46:21So it is in order to speed up progress, not to slow it down, in order to meet the demands, that it's complicated.
2:46:27It is following their outline, not our outline, that it is like this.
2:46:32Then when you get the question... Now listen, let me say that when people raise the complicated line, that is just a goddamn camouflage.
2:46:43They're against it, that's all.
2:46:44They're just trying to find something wrong.
2:46:47Don't you agree?
2:46:48But there wasn't, after all, you remember, Ron, when I briefed before the President's April speech last year, and somebody got up and said, that just isn't enough.
2:46:57Do you remember?
2:46:59We've had really emotional meetings.
2:47:02This one, I may be wrong, but I think even those who may sort of nitpick away at it are really quite impressed, and they...
2:47:13They're sort of hacking away, but they haven't hacked so much.
2:47:16I watch television.
2:47:17No, you have to keep in mind, too, Henry, that most of them have carried a view about the war.
2:47:28Most of them are in the category that I mentioned, the leaders, who think it was a mistake to get in, who think it was a mistake to stay in, and indeed want to prove that they're right and want us to lose.
2:47:40And also who are concerned that maybe I,
2:47:44politically might succeed.
2:47:46Now, therefore, they're gonna piss on us.
2:47:48And, goddammit, let's face this, kick them in the balls!
2:47:51Right, Green?
2:47:52Of course, they're a hell of a start, but at least a few started at this question of, why are you making it public now?
2:47:58Because it's a hell of an argument for them to make, considering that they're making things public.
2:48:03But you answered it well.
2:48:05What did you say?
2:48:06What, thereby?
2:48:07That they're making things public.
2:48:10Somebody, I think, lyrical has said,
2:48:13Why make it public now?
2:48:14Somebody asked the question, why do you make it public now?
2:48:21Is there any other reason except for domestic disharmony?
2:48:24I said, well, the domestic issue isn't negligible.
2:48:29We need to have a united people to end this war with dignity.
2:48:33I said to the leaders, one thing, incidentally, I hope somebody takes notes of this, or I made the point, Henry, and they said, well, what about the Mansfield amendments?
2:48:44I said, well, let me be quite candid.
2:48:46I said, if we have the Congress after this speech, which goes as far as we can go, go off in every direction, you can kiss negotiations goodbye.
2:48:55you're going to kill them.
2:48:56Now they have got the statement, don't you think so?
2:49:00I'm just going to put the monkey on their back.
2:49:05What are you going to say to them?
2:49:08I said, secondly, the second reason is because
2:49:16Because when you ask what was new yesterday, what was new yesterday is that the President and President Chu said publicly what we said secretly before.
2:49:27The other side would have considered it a negotiating given.
2:49:30Now they know we are committed to it.
2:49:33The mere fact that President Chu has offered to resign changes the political landscape in South Vietnam and is in itself a tremendous confession.
2:49:42Thirdly, I said every government, we have that experience, every government has experienced that they don't want to make a decision unless they have to, and that they may have thought they could wait a month or two months.
2:49:56We are now asking them to take a decision.
2:50:00Those were our principal reasons.
2:50:03Well, that summer, did you do it because of the offensive, I said?
2:50:06The basic decision was made at the end of December, at a time when we thought there'd be a series of high points and not as offensive.
2:50:15We did it because with Congress coming back, we did not want to be in a position where our public and private positions were totally inconsistent with each other.
2:50:28We need a united people, so the President decided, soon after Congress came back, he would put before the American people, before the Congress, enough of the facts protecting only those elements that were required to keep the confidentiality of the Channel alive.
2:50:47And I was quoted in North Vietnamese about not tempting us into the review of a number of things.
2:50:54You don't want to be forced into this.
2:50:56But you said we're prepared to have them released.
2:50:59I said if they want to release, we won't release the nine points because it's sales, but if they want to, then I gave an explanation of the differences between the nine and the seven points, which one of them, which I hadn't realized until I studied it yesterday, was that their ceasefire in the nine points is much more detailed than in the seven points, and is a real ceasefire.
2:51:23Well, the second one was a sort of way.
2:51:25So this killed the ceasefire issue right there.
2:51:29I said, now one big difference is that the nine points offered a genuine ceasefire.
2:51:34See, so then no one came back to me and said, why do you have ceasefire in your package?
2:51:39You know, that's a very good point.
2:51:40Ceasefire's in the package because they've already opened it.
2:51:43It's not a problem.
2:51:45We've accepted it in principle.
2:51:46We've accepted it in principle.
2:51:48And I said, just so that we can narrow the questions to the contentious issues,
2:51:54of the eight points we have, there are only two that are, in any sense, in dispute.
2:51:59Which are?
2:52:00The withdrawal, and the two, and I said on withdrawal, what they really want is that we get the deadline that runs no matter what happens.
2:52:10And on overthrow, what they want is not that, uh, we, uh, that a few goes.
2:52:17What they want is that we put them in.
2:52:21And, uh,
2:52:22And that is what we object to.
2:52:25To ally ourselves with them.
2:52:26They want us to ally ourselves with them against the people who've been relying on us.
2:52:32That is what we can't do.
2:52:34We will give them a fair chance at the political process.
2:52:42I think this country, I don't know, but I think they're going to have a hell of a time dealing with this because, as we were willing to say publicly, it is not true we are protecting any particular government.
2:52:53In our August 16th proposal, we should be able to say we are not ready to any government.
2:52:58Yesterday, the President said we will accept the outcome of any political process.
2:53:02It's in our proposal.
2:53:05The Jew offers to resign.
2:53:08Jew offers to put the whole electoral process under an electoral commission, which he doesn't control.
2:53:16Then somebody said, does he appoint the electoral commission?
2:53:18I said, no, the electoral commission is negotiated between us.
2:53:23It's negotiated at the peace conference.
2:53:27That was a good thing.
2:53:28You've really got to go back to the Harris short.
2:53:30They must be mad as hell.
2:53:34I thought they didn't get it.
2:53:35No, what I mean is that they're mad because they didn't get you.
2:53:40I thought they didn't get it.
2:53:42Yeah.
2:53:42Well, anyway, incidentally, speaking of friends, I tell you what, I'm going to go back and use one of these meetings.
2:53:52You don't need any enemies, do you?
2:53:54He wasn't there.
2:53:55Were you there?
2:53:55Were you there?
2:53:56I had to come in late because I was preparing for your session.
2:54:01What did he do?
2:54:02Well, he started fly-specking to promote more than the leaders did.
2:54:08He said, why didn't you have this?
2:54:12Why didn't you have that?
2:54:13Well, he didn't understand.
2:54:14He said, well, I don't agree.
2:54:17One thing that wasn't clear is, is it true, Rudy, that we have offered a straight proposal of a ceasefire, no, of a withdrawal ceasefire from POWs?
2:54:30I said, oh, yeah, sure.
2:54:31I said, do you remember I said that?
2:54:32I said, we offered that in, we offered to negotiate it in June, May.
2:54:39We offered it in 90 months in August.
2:54:42And then in October 11th, in my speech yesterday, we offered it in the alternative.
2:54:48We could separate that out and do that alone.
2:54:51We'll do it as part of the political package, or we'll do it as part of the page.
2:54:56But the choice is theirs.
2:54:57God damn it, if there was anything clear in that speech, was that that speech was very clear.
2:55:01But he didn't care.
2:55:06I wonder if he read it.
2:55:08But he's in a contrary mood because yesterday afternoon at your staff, at the staff briefing I did at four,
2:55:16He took the opposite line.
2:55:17There, he said, why the hell did you put, he said, that proposal, trust of withdrawals and ceasefire, isn't good enough, because as soon as you're out, they're going to break the ceasefire.
2:55:32So, what did he want?
2:55:33What did he want?
2:55:34Well, he, uh, he doesn't have an idea.
2:55:40One thing I did is I read the two notes with which we transmitted the documents.
2:55:46And I said, those were secret notes.
2:55:48They were never intended for publication.
2:55:50They just give you a flag of the spirit with which we approached the North Vietnamese.
2:55:55We haven't used invective.
2:55:57We have said we want justice.
2:55:59We have said we will admit it.
2:56:01Of course, I have to confess, I always had in mind that it's a... You always said, Henry, after every one of your meetings, you brought in great folders.
2:56:11Just remember, we're speaking for the record.
2:56:13He knew goddamn well.
2:56:15I've got a lot of beautiful speeches I made, which I'll address to them, which if they drag it up.
2:56:21Oh, if they forget to put the whole thing up.
2:56:23The thing is, though, one thing I think we have done, Ron, Henry talked to you last night in the morning, and saw me and Henry talking.
2:56:34But I think what has happened here is that, first, I think we caught your friends in the press corps off-balance.
2:56:41Absolutely.
2:56:41Yes, sir.
2:56:43And second, I think we have caught our enemies in the Congress off-balance.
2:56:52I have a very interesting thought, Congressman.
2:56:54You remember this fellow who was fasting?
2:56:57in Lafayette Park, Brian MacDonald, during camp four years.
2:57:00He was two of us, yeah.
2:57:02Gibson, Poole.
2:57:03The Quakers.
2:57:03The Quakers.
2:57:04The Quakers, to whom I then talked into breaking his pass.
2:57:08He called me for an hour and a half last night at midnight.
2:57:11You took the call?
2:57:13I said he cried.
2:57:14I said I wanted to know.
2:57:15I apologized.
2:57:16I doubted you.
2:57:18You've done everything you've ever done.
2:57:20Uh...
2:57:22of, can I help the administration?
2:57:24Anything I can do.
2:57:25The last, the last of the bloody fastest.
2:57:27I'd like to say thank you for the client.
2:57:30Can we put it out?
2:57:32Yeah.
2:57:32Well, if not, call it today.
2:57:34I'll tell him that you can make a statement.
2:57:36Or he would simply approve you saying that to someone.
2:57:40Or just say, would you mind if I made it?
2:57:43But he was, I couldn't get him off the damn phone.
2:57:47His wife was assassinated, was murdered by some Negro.
2:57:51She was a Negro herself three weeks ago.
2:57:54And he said if only Alex had been there, we would have seen him.
2:58:00No, he's an Irishman, not the Irishman.
2:58:10It wasn't just, I literally- What did you tell them about?
2:58:13I got the phone again, because all of a sudden, did you tell them about this?
2:58:19The Marine, the Marine, the colleague, the professor from St. Joseph's College, who called and said that he had been one of those who was doubtful over the last three months, and he was again in tears.
2:58:35He said, he said, if I had only known
2:58:39He said, if I had only known, I wouldn't have been one of those back-fighters.
2:58:43He said, I knew.
2:58:44He said, he voted for the president for you in 1968.
2:58:47He said, I felt then that the president of the United States could be one of the greatest presidents in the history of this country.
2:58:53He said, tonight I have no doubt about the fact that he is the greatest president in the history of this country.
2:58:58And, you know, great emotion.
2:58:59He said, three of my students came back in coffins.
2:59:01He said, I've been one of those that has been back-fighting the president, has distrusted the president.
2:59:07He said, but there's no question in my mind now that everything that he is doing, everything that he is undertaking is in the best interest of the people.
2:59:15We have been constantly having a fantasy now for the next two weeks or from the time, from now until we go to China, answering every on-the-spot, every false attack right in the middle of the air, not letting it off the ground, none.
2:59:31But I think we've killed the government in this region today.
2:59:34Yeah, I think so.
2:59:36We really, and I deliberately did it, I said, I began by, you know, saying nothing has been more on the President's mind than to unite the people in ending the war after all the anguish, after all the suffering.
2:59:55We are here to do so that at least we can end the war that has divided us so much in dignity and in unity.
3:00:06Those are the principles we have.
3:00:08This is the spirit in which I'm giving you this briefing.
3:00:10We are just trying to put before you what happened so that you can raise your questions at the level of the President's concerns.
3:00:19I don't know whether they're going to carry the text of this.
3:00:29It's on the record.
3:00:30It's on the record, but do your best to get the text carried, I mean.
3:00:33I think it will.
3:00:34Times ought to carry it, but they don't carry it.
3:00:40It'll be a big story.
3:00:43Oh, sure.
3:00:43You mean the interview?
3:00:45The interview.
3:00:47This will be?
3:00:48Oh, sure.
3:00:49But last night I thought maybe we shouldn't do it, but after I saw some of the stories.
3:00:54Yeah, this was important.
3:00:56Yeah, well, it just keeps us on the intensity that answers the questions that some people have.
3:01:02It helped with Scott Porter, Scott Porter, possibly when they came out.
3:01:07Scott got himself caught a little bit up on surrender, but that was all right for him to say that.
3:01:15It's fine, you know, for Scott to say that.
3:01:17You can say that.
3:01:18Sure you can, sir.
3:01:21Well, I didn't think it was his records.
3:01:23No, no, no, no.
3:01:24He said that anyone who
3:01:26who advocates simply withdrawal and change for the POWs and less than this.
3:01:34No, he says the difference between people accepting this
3:01:37a reasonable mind and then those who want to surrender entirely.
3:01:41And then it came down a little bit on who you're saying surrendered.
3:01:44But that's right, it's a quotes movie.
3:01:46The responsibility of the world except for that.
3:01:49We're not going to attack O'Brien.
3:01:52We're not going to attack these left-wingers.
3:01:53I tell you, McCloskey, I saw McCloskey on television.
3:01:57He said, I think the guy has flipped his lid.
3:02:00Even Roger Mudd jumped on him.
3:02:05He was on with Brooke.
3:02:07He made Brooke look like a right-winger.
3:02:09Brooke defended you, not very enthusiastically.
3:02:12He said he wished you had come further, but this is a tremendous step in the right direction.
3:02:17Then McCluskey said he's deceived the American people.
3:02:20Did you see it?
3:02:21Roger Mudd said, how has he deceived the American people?
3:02:24He said, because he didn't mention it in the State of the Union address.
3:02:27He's confusing them for their difference.
3:02:30He's deceiving the American people.
3:02:32Even Mudd does not look like a human.
3:02:35He said you shouldn't put this in the State of the Union.
3:02:38That made the State of the Union 50 minutes long.
3:02:42That, if we get no worse criticism than this, we're in trouble.
3:02:46It's like, McCloskey speaking is like the head of the Quarks Club in Dallas.
3:02:52Yeah, it was.
3:02:53How long was the speech last night?
3:02:56Nineteen minutes.
3:02:57Nineteen?
3:02:59That's good.
3:02:59It's a good one.
3:03:01I thought it was the best delivery that I have heard you...
3:03:06Your right face.
3:03:08Strong.
3:03:09That one was strong.
3:03:10You didn't appear to apologize.
3:03:16Well, anyway, have fun.
3:03:18But, Ron, I want you to watch.
3:03:21Have Scali watch on his son, if you can.
3:03:24Don't bother me with it, because I know you bother me.
3:03:27Goddamn it, Rick.
3:03:29But I don't bother him.
3:03:31Whenever anybody raises their ugly head and says something that's wrong, get over the Colson group, you know what I mean, and chop their damn heads off and have a denier come at us.
3:03:44Get Rogers.
3:03:44Make him say something.
3:03:46He will.
3:03:47He will.
3:03:47And say, look, will you answer this?
3:03:49Now, you talk to Colson, will you?
3:03:52That's part of his job.
3:03:55so that we do not allow the little lies now to be called.
3:03:58We've got a good position, and the way we summed it up, Cameron, is the way a lot of people are saying, I've gone as far as we can go, let's stick right there.
3:04:07Now, one other thing, and this is very important,
3:04:11Every son of a bitch now is going to come up with some new proposal, some new way to do it.
3:04:15Let's do this, and why don't we do that?
3:04:18And they're going to say, why don't we offer straight prisoners for withdrawal?
3:04:23Or something like that.
3:04:24Although I think you killed them pretty well.
3:04:27But nevertheless, the answer is safe.
3:04:29We have made our proposal, and we're standing by it.
3:04:33And don't give in.
3:04:34Don't change.
3:04:34We support your proposal, and we're standing by it.
3:04:38As you said in the leadership meeting this morning, someone has to make the decision as to how far we go.
3:04:43That decision has been made, and we stand by it.
3:04:46Well, the leaders were told this morning for a change.
3:04:50Goddamn it.
3:04:50You were very strong this morning with them, too.
3:04:55All right.
3:04:57Bye.
3:04:57Bye.
3:04:57I like that play.
3:04:58You really knocked it down.
3:04:59You should have heard it bigger.
3:05:02He's, uh, he's, you know, he calls it, he's, he's, he said that he, he slaughtered us and passed us.
3:05:09But I'm telling you, from now on, we're going to take on the fish next to us, and if they, they crap on us, by God, crap on them, we've got to fight them now.
3:05:19We've got to fight them.
3:05:20I'm a little sorry I wasn't online, because I was really eloquent today.
3:05:23Oh, that's what he said.
3:05:24God damn it, I wish it was an election speech.
3:05:27Must have been taking me.
3:05:31Not on television.
3:05:33No, but I know all these radio things, Peter.
3:05:39Of course, I didn't know I had a son.
3:05:41I spoke extemporaneously to him.
3:05:45If you've been on live, it may not have been quite as good, though, you never know.
3:05:48The television tends to make us all flee.
3:05:51Let me just see if the, well, they all have reporters, but I wonder if they have reporters.
3:05:56Well, they have the text, the hell with the text.
3:06:00I was thinking of, even if it's not on television, we can get out a radio show on the day of the same.
3:06:04Turn the radio to turn your call.
3:06:07Do you want to hold it?
3:06:08I'll finish it and take these on.
3:06:13All right, okay, thanks.
3:06:29Yes, yes.
3:06:34Hello?
3:06:37Hello, how are you?
3:06:39Are you in a recent meeting?
3:06:41Hello?
3:06:43Hello?
3:06:44Yeah, how are you?
3:06:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:06:48Are you in a recent meeting, I understand.
3:07:01Well, we called, Henry, I guess, called you with an advance or hey here.
3:07:06Yeah, yeah.
3:07:14Right.
3:07:17Yeah.
3:07:21Right.
3:07:22Let me say that I couldn't agree more.
3:07:24If the line could be taken, we have gone as far as we can go.
3:07:30We cannot join our enemy or overthrow our ally.
3:07:34But beyond that, if we could also say that any chance for negotiation
3:07:42will be destroyed if we go off in all directions again.
3:07:46But if the American people unite behind this proposal, then the enemy will realize that they can't gain the United States the victory they can't win out there.
3:07:56And I really think if you could hit that line, let's unite.
3:08:00Because it's really true, Rob, you can't speak with a babble of voices and expect the other side to negotiate.
3:08:07There's got to be one negotiator.
3:08:08Now, this is
3:08:14If they want to go off on their own, then they have the responsibility for destroying this fine chance for peace.
3:08:21Now, I understand the first reaction of the enemy will be to turn this down.
3:08:25But that's all right.
3:08:27We'll just keep proposing.
3:08:28And after they've had their offensive, then we'll see what they're gonna do.
3:08:37Right, right.
3:08:43Yeah.
3:09:01Well, let me say this.
3:09:06He is top-line, and he certainly is one who could conserve any place in government.
3:09:16He's that good, in my opinion.
3:09:18with regard to this situation we're on at this point because of the relatively short time
3:09:26I feel that at this point that, and John, I talked to John Mitchell about it, that the best thing probably is going to be to take Kleindies and have him serve until the, you know, the 10 months that are left.
3:09:44And then, of course, Kleindies has no ideas.
3:09:46I mean, I don't think he's going to have that.
3:09:50But I can assure you that
3:09:56is at the very top of the list, as, of course, Smith would be.
3:10:01Smith, particularly for the court, and Cap on the AG thing.
3:10:07I know his heart is set on that.
3:10:10But you can see that at this point, if you moved a new man in,
3:10:14who, you know, on top of this whole pile, inept with all the intricate things they've got to operate and all the cases that are up there, it would just take an awful lot of time for him to learn what the hell is going on.
3:10:26The Justice Department, the Justice Department is the most intricate deal of all because of the cases they have.
3:10:34But I got your message, and frankly, if you have no objection, I'm going to tell Kev who talked and feel appreciated, too, because he's done a fine job.
3:10:47And give my best to the student editors.
3:10:55Oh, wait for that.
3:10:57Bob Fitch was at the city yesterday and said he was coming out to see you.
3:11:01And he had a couple things to pass on to you, and I think it would be very decent here.
3:11:08But he, I think he left a couple of questions.
3:11:10He said he was going to see you today or tomorrow.
3:11:13But I've come up with, you know, you talked about the phone, but I think it was.
3:11:19If you want to talk to me after you've seen him, head on ahead and call.
3:11:25Okay.
3:11:25Because I'm not getting involved in California politics.
3:11:30But it's up to you.
3:11:32I'm glad to interview you.
3:18:07Could I get you to take that?
3:18:20Yeah.
3:18:20It would be a good idea to take Henry's breathing thing.
3:18:28And to go over it in terms of, and get somebody who's helped on how
3:18:38questions come up and so forth.
3:18:40But what he tries to do is answer various questions there and prepare about two, three pages of questions and answers, you know.
3:18:49What I meant is that he answers the question about whether we offered this and what we did that and so forth and so on.
3:19:00Buchanan is probably the one that could do that the best.
3:19:06or Sapphire, one of the two.
3:19:10Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe Sapphire.
3:19:13But what I mean is I get it right away and get it to, how to, you could talk to Paul about who should get it.
3:19:27Our, maybe some congressmen probably need them, senators are on that.
3:19:35Maggie, the press, people that have to answer questions, okay?
3:20:09Is Secretary Kahn here yet?
3:20:10As soon as he arrives, I want to see him first before the others come in.
3:20:21Would you try to share pitches?
3:20:27Don't do it now because I don't see you getting any more.
3:20:58Mr. Snyder of Kentucky Police.
3:21:37is after that meeting.
3:22:36Oh, yeah, I think so.
3:22:54Hi, John, how are you?
3:22:56I'm good, how are you?
3:22:58I want to see you again.
3:23:03uh the deficit the deficit aspect of the budget uh the fear of inflation what what extent the impact of it
3:23:29on the thing, and just the economic situation here in the U.S. and so on.
3:23:41Yes, and I can give you some, we certainly should get back to all this.
3:23:53Okay, yes.
3:23:54Yeah, yeah.
3:23:59Yeah.
3:24:00Well, I'll tell you, I will be tied up for an arm, so I'll call back.
3:24:07Yes, Mr. Brody.
3:24:09I had another call in, but would you hold them now for an arm?
3:24:48Right, right.
3:24:49He comes in.
3:24:51They come in, they find out.
3:26:25All set for the pictures, I'll tell you.
3:26:26All right.
3:26:42All right.
3:27:02I've got this.
3:27:08I have a working session, Mr. President.
3:27:17Here they are.
3:27:18All right.
3:27:20I like this very little.
3:27:32It really was, Mr. President.
3:27:35I called Henry last night and told him that.
3:27:37You got him?
3:27:37Yeah.
3:27:37I thought it was actually true.
3:27:40I was interested.
3:27:40Jack Colton asked me.
3:27:44He said that he talked to you.
3:27:46He asked me to call Clark Kerr.
3:27:53And he had Clark for me.
3:27:55I had to get him to see Clark.
3:27:57And that's a public statement.
3:28:01I was reacting to the casting, so it'd be the last one.
3:28:04Well, at least, it is scheduled.
3:28:06Yes, that is.
3:28:07All right.
3:28:08Basically, it says the audience would suggest that you drop it out and support Brown as you did with the war on Earth.
3:28:18The speech that happened.
3:28:21What war?
3:28:22Oh, I don't know.
3:28:24Well, he's been having a committee that's been making suggestions about Vietnam and Vietnam.
3:28:29Yeah, it's not a devilish committee.
3:28:32On the other hand, we're pushing particularly on the ceasefire.
3:28:42Yeah, it's not way out there.
3:28:46It's like many other groups.
3:28:49Well, I thought we ought to have this meeting a sort of general rundown of it.
3:28:56On various matters, it occurred to me, you talked to John, perhaps his partner, he talks a lot about the low-income, as you were, what's your evaluation type, I read your paper that you sent to me, and perhaps we ought to hear
3:29:23Mark, do you want to cover in regard to the supply and so forth?
3:29:24John?
3:29:24Yes.
3:29:25Perhaps some up-to-date information in regard to where it stands in regard to able to...
3:29:51But if I could put it the federal way we want, should we start with the economic side first, and then the national side first?
3:29:59You can fit into these things, too.
3:30:05And John also.
3:30:05Well, I get in front of a price.
3:30:10I gave a chair view this morning to the Republican leadership.
3:30:16I feel a little more worried about this, I think.
3:30:21I feel a little more worried than I appeared to have this morning, I'm sure.
3:30:28But we have a forecast of a strong, steady rise in the economy, by all means, an excessive rise in the economy.
3:30:37But that forecast depends very heavily on the expansion of spending.
3:30:43It's really an amazing expansion of spending.
3:30:47Well, federal spending, I mean, from the expenditure drive, according to our estimates, from the fourth quarter to the first quarter, that's two quarters, by more than an increase in the last seven quarters.
3:31:03Furthermore,
3:31:26The, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the,
3:31:46It just wasn't the case, in fact, either way.
3:31:48Well, it was down.
3:31:49Why it was down, I don't know.
3:31:50It's very preliminary.
3:31:51We'll get better figures soon.
3:31:53But I've never had a previous one, so it was not.
3:31:54But the first indication of the start of the conference, as I said, I was sure it was going to be this month.
3:32:02As I said, it was January.
3:32:03I'm not encouraging a lot of people to say I was there.
3:32:17...so that...
3:32:42They don't seem to start.
3:32:44Some people I've talked to who go around and talk to business people, they're not starting with the vigorous you might expect from the drive that we're looking for.
3:32:56And, uh, I don't know if you can see this, but I'm calling it a desperation.
3:33:00I can't repeat it.
3:33:01I tend to forget and draw the vex, but it is vexed.
3:33:03I didn't push it.
3:33:04I was just going to draw the vex on it.
3:33:07Well, I know Arthur is pushing at the same time, but we're lucky to see any growth, or hardly any growth, of the 7-1.
3:33:21I'm particularly conscious of the complaints that we are getting at the same time that the situation is all incredibly strange.
3:33:41Our very expansionist policy, our very expansionist policy, our very expansionist policy, our very expansionist policy,
3:33:57We've had already cables from Paris and various French officials who are already going to get them again.
3:34:03And I'm sure we're going to hear a great deal later about our policy making advancements and tour advancements.
3:34:11Irresponsible is what they've been responsible for.
3:34:14And I think, to me, that the president's wishes on me is very, very terrible.
3:34:18And I think it's very exciting for him.
3:34:22And I think it's very problematic.
3:34:28that, uh, that are aligned with respect to the analogies of things.
3:34:32Well, they should try to do it.
3:34:36The other point of concern that seems to me is the prospect of a wage price.
3:34:42I think it's, uh, working moderately well, but things like the doctor I've written about indicate how, kind of, fragile the whole thing is,
3:34:57Excuse me, if I went there and the doctor's right, which is still a part of your body, but anything that hasn't been suggested, that's a reasonable stand for me for you.
3:35:07That's a great question.
3:35:08I don't think there is any internal consistency in the lawyer, but I guess my guy has me worried sometimes when we are supporting, maybe, for hearing him step in at some point.
3:35:27Basically, I think it is going to contribute something to our job here as a church.
3:35:42So that might help us.
3:35:46You have no particular... Well, of course, it's hard to tell us.
3:35:50I intend not to have to tell.
3:36:00It's the best we know.
3:36:02I had an impression up until recently that we moved very well in December.
3:36:12Didn't you, John?
3:36:14Yes.
3:36:14What did we move to?
3:36:16Retail sales.
3:36:17You talked about retail sales in December being dead poor.
3:36:21Well, you didn't mean poor, really.
3:36:24A little number of figures.
3:36:28indicated me slowly climbing.
3:36:31Climbing from which last year?
3:36:34I don't remember.
3:36:35I think it has to be, remember, when they seized me and Justin, they go from November to December.
3:36:47They were really taking a series of figures.
3:36:55What about sugar figures on January?
3:37:12Well, we've been having a couple of weeks, and the weekly figures were even worse than the monthly figures, but the Department of Power's record then is indicating a change where it may be down again.
3:37:28It's a slight clue.
3:37:30And the economy that we're expecting to rise by 9-10% to
3:37:41that we have any evidence that we're not going where we want to go.
3:37:55I guess the main thing I want to say is that going where we want to go depends very heavily
3:38:05I'm not very confident.
3:38:07I'm confident that we do not see a lot of independent autonomous living.
3:38:11So we have to keep looking out for the business winter and getting off grass and stuff.
3:38:24All right.
3:38:25What other judgments do we have on this for you, Mark?
3:38:30Well, in fact, I'll comment on some of the budget things.
3:38:33But what I heard, the first was regarding some curbs and analysis of the where we are.
3:38:36I'd be more, I'd be more.
3:38:37I'd be more, I'm more.
3:38:58I'd be more,
3:39:02Cyclic recovery.
3:39:05Lengths of the work we've been making back here in the past few months has risen sharply.
3:39:13The, if you look not bad, you know, in the last quarter, last few months, contracts are up.
3:39:23Commercial, industrial, orders for capital are up.
3:39:29business appropriations for capital expenditures are up.
3:39:32Well, they're a little too big a percentage, so there's a drop down somewhere.
3:39:38Well, you know, they're wadding from month to month, so we're right.
3:39:41Oh, that has to be correct.
3:39:43But if you take this from a broader trend, I see business capital expenditures, and this has been the lagging factor of the economy.
3:39:53But you see that the...
3:39:59What do you say, John?
3:40:01Well, basically the same thing.
3:40:02I think by any standards, regardless of the December 4th quarter, did it need to have a 6.1% rise for your GDP?
3:40:11And I'm not satisfied that you're the center of retail figures when the departments are correct.
3:40:15I remember seeing a couple of stories in the Wall Street Journal in which they actually interviewed people about the first of the year, major department stores around the United States, Mr. Sears, and so forth and so on.
3:40:30And they were saying, fantastic, unbelievable.
3:40:35This was the sale that was being posted the whole Christmas, between Christmas and New Year's.
3:40:41And they just say we're 17% above last year, but this is the best December we've ever had in the history of solar and all this kind of things.
3:40:50I just have to question the Congress and the preliminary figures.
3:40:58But author's right.
3:40:59The labor market indicators, I think, suggest for the Kings and some months ahead, your work week has increased, I think.
3:41:09Layoff rates down, the uninsured, the insured unemployment rate fell 3.8% in December according to my famous list.
3:41:20And hiring rates up, health and water advertising is up.
3:41:26Prices were not particularly good.
3:41:29good in December, but that was the fullest we were all expecting.
3:41:34And then we all worried about housing.
3:41:37December housing, I don't quite believe this is a big figure.
3:41:40You'll probably prove to be wrong.
3:41:43Housing started from $2.5 million in December, housing permits were $2,231,000.
3:41:48That has to be, that has to be, which has to be, I'm sure, a lot of subsidized.
3:41:54It gets reported in early months.
3:41:56It gets reported in December.
3:41:58But if you knock it down, if you knock it down, it's still a good two and a quarter million.
3:42:02Two to one, three million for the fourth quarter.
3:42:04So the fourth quarter, how does it start?
3:42:08Now, all of you, most of you are...
3:42:13I got some information this morning that hurt me.
3:42:15I feel like it's a composite leading index to be served or to be made public tomorrow.
3:42:21It shows a continued strong advantage.
3:42:25It's leading in the year.
3:42:27That's on top of a revised, upward revised November figure.
3:42:32And it's strong on a broad front.
3:42:37It's leading in the year.
3:42:45It's better to take Herb's picture as a starting point than John's or mine.
3:42:57The way you think of John's or mine is more nearly correct.
3:43:03I agree, I agree.
3:43:05Well, then these meetings should be the first to almost talk about the problem rather than...
3:43:14That's what I've asked all of you to do, so I just want to be sure that we hear it exactly as it is.
3:43:24And say everything's going to hell every time you have a bad figure, because it isn't.
3:43:32It's always all a question really of measuring.
3:43:38Because of what people's expectations are.
3:43:42I have a couple of additional things to add, Mr. President.
3:43:45I want to mention the layoff rate, which is down, down to the, say, late 1969, I don't know where it lies.
3:43:55The accession rate of manufacturing is up, and the accession, the accession, the measured layoffs,
3:44:03Those would be involuntary operations.
3:44:06The numbers are people who quit voluntarily.
3:44:09And the Conservatives look bad against the rate at which they were being added to payrolls.
3:44:16The accession rate was 4.2 per 100 employees, but they have a rate of 1.4 per 120.
3:44:22So there's a big differential there.
3:44:27On the curve rate, the question of federal spending,
3:44:33Before you get into that, may I just say one thing?
3:44:36Arthur, you weren't at the cabin meeting, but John is undertaking responsibility for pulling together
3:44:44and all the commerce and so forth, and analysis of who are the unemployed.
3:44:52Now this is, people have gone through this before, you know, but as you know, the heads of household numbers would be pretty good.
3:44:59You have a hell of a problem with regard to women and other, and there's two jobs in the back of the deal, and of course, 18-year-olds and so forth and so on.
3:45:11You'll have that in about, do you think, in about three weeks or so.
3:45:16And I think this will be interesting.
3:45:18If you're a cop,
3:45:20You don't do that kind of work.
3:45:24Would you make a contribution to that thing, to the force?
3:45:29We're just going to know who the hell the unemployed are.
3:45:31Herbs are going to do it, and the commerce people, the labor people will probably get the best figures to play their role.
3:45:40Are there seven?
3:45:43Yeah.
3:45:43I think we'd all like to know, and then we can see what the devil will do about the problem.
3:45:50Do you think this is useful?
3:45:52An analysis of the actor.
3:45:53Also, I don't know how to talk about it.
3:45:55You ask for what I think of it.
3:45:57It doesn't really take much.
3:45:59We've all been here for the same figures.
3:46:02And honestly, we don't take more of what I think.
3:46:07I suggest, Kevin, I just don't want to get you wrong.
3:46:10No, no, here's what I would do.
3:46:11I'd like to get John to do it.
3:46:13John can do it.
3:46:13And let John send it around.
3:46:15And then we'd ask for track, rather than do it independently.
3:46:18Because we're going to be using the same sources, we probably wouldn't want to put the same thing.
3:46:24You think you all use the same sources?
3:46:26Well, the only sources I can do that with.
3:46:30Maybe we can come up with a recommendation for a special service.
3:46:36Well, if you want a special survey, John, let's have it.
3:46:41Right.
3:46:42I think that, you know, I mean, if you want to order something, you might have to do it.
3:46:48Let me tell you something that you probably don't know.
3:46:53I don't want you to know this, George.
3:46:57These unborn contestants were revised.
3:47:04Now, one of the key questions in my survey is as follows.
3:47:13If you find a fellow, he doesn't have, he's not working, he doesn't have a job.
3:47:21Well, what has he done, you see, to look for a job?
3:47:27Now, you can ask that question in very many different ways.
3:47:30One way of asking that question is,
3:47:34A very simple way of asking the question is, what have you done within the past four weeks?
3:47:42Another way of asking the question is, what have you done within the past week?
3:47:48You may have done nothing within the past week, but you did something four weeks ago.
3:47:53Now, a special survey was run.
3:48:00No, it's okay.
3:48:02And if the question were, and the question they use is, in the survey, what have you done here in the past four weeks?
3:48:11If instead of asking the question in the last four, if they were asking the question, what did you do here in the past week?
3:48:18The number along the rate would be down by 1.5% more.
3:48:21This is an unpublished document in the mainland survey.
3:48:27But they decide in the four weeks.
3:48:28Now you ask the question, why should they decide that way?
3:48:32Well, you know, these statistical people are pretty objective of what they have in mind for politics, too.
3:48:38I don't know if that's good or bad.
3:48:40I'm just describing it.
3:48:45They...
3:48:45I have my own ideas.
3:48:48If they had taken the definition on a one-week basis, they would have been a great in the series.
3:48:55They found that by taking it on a four-week basis, you could have something that looks continuous on the chart and wouldn't have a sudden drop.
3:49:03And they decided not to have this sudden drop.
3:49:07But actually, my book, the proper question is not what the hell you did four weeks ago.
3:49:12You did nothing during the past week, as you say.
3:49:15And that makes quite a bit of a difference.
3:49:17You got it wrong.
3:49:28who sat in front of this first one.
3:49:30All I did was picture you, however you wanted it.
3:49:33Another one of you had a picture of me, but I wanted that to be the only one.
3:49:38You know, just that one.
3:49:40Okay, well, in good time.
3:49:42Do you like the use of the division?
3:49:45I think you might have to suppress them and take them away, right, too, because they won't use it.
3:49:51I've got to talk to them.
3:49:53I'm sure they're glad you're here for, you know, the business, magazines and so forth.
3:49:57Let's take a picture and walk it out.
3:49:59You can do that.
3:50:00Sure, anytime you want.
3:50:01All right.
3:50:03Okay, now, John, you do it any way you want.
3:50:08All right, George, budge it.
3:50:11You started going right around the corner.
3:50:14You had a lot to talk about.
3:50:18I would make a point or two about the spending, but we are, my father was a part of it, pushed very hard to spend the money that they'd have offered.
3:50:29Good, I raised one with you.
3:50:30I don't want to risk it.
3:50:32The jury at work have handed a note to me.
3:50:34I always get a little sent to me at these meetings.
3:50:38But anyway, his note is about HUD.
3:50:43He said George Romney's got a hell of a lot of money around for various projects, and he and a number of people, a number of congressmen say that HUD is just one of the worst.
3:50:56not through going forward on our knowledge i don't know it may be that this involves uh there's some very controversial kinds of queens or what i mean is but it means also that they're not doing it would you look at that that's all right i certainly will the i told you to do that to have these various inner city public housing types of things because we have just a failing program
3:51:25That is also very slow-spending money.
3:51:28We do have some money that we're still reserving out of bonds, and we'll be testifying on that tomorrow, which represent programs we talked about at Camp David.
3:51:41Now, to some extent, this water and sewer type program where you have slow-spending programs, which gradually the federal government is being brought in,
3:51:52to build all the sewer systems all over the country.
3:51:54It just doesn't seem to make sense, and we're trying to drag our feet up.
3:51:58But for the most part, funds have been put out.
3:52:04We are, of course, being accused by the press in the sense of having withheld all these funds and now dumping them all out for a purpose of stimulating things before the election.
3:52:18I think that it may be we will get attacked for doing any withholding.
3:52:24And actually, the withholding you do for the non-apportioned money that is
3:52:32That is, that it handled that way for financial reasons is about the same as it was last year, about $12 billion.
3:52:40So it may not be bad right now, given all the worry about the deficit and so on, that we'll get a headline for the battle of at least holding back funds, at least it shows that we're trying to be prudent in the management of money.
3:52:52On the other hand,
3:52:57With that respect to our statements about a firm spending ceiling and his housing funds, we are pushing other departments to spend the money, and they have a tremendous amount of budget authority, as was brought out of the cabinet meeting.
3:53:13Let's understand one thing, Dr., you weren't the captain, but I made this point.
3:53:17I said spend the damn money in the first four months of this year.
3:53:21because we talk about holding until the month before the election.
3:53:24That's too late.
3:53:25If you spend it then, it doesn't do any good.
3:53:27I mean, sure, you could make an announcement that you're gonna spend money, but if it's going to wrap up the economy, and if you agree with this, don't you, the thing to do is to get the damn money out now, later on.
3:53:38If we, then we can pull in the rankings.
3:53:40I'm sure it's especially true of that argument.
3:53:42That's correct.
3:53:43And also, in terms of economic effects, there's also this.
3:53:48The...
3:53:51You're old now, and I think very wisely, a rigid expenditure ceiling.
3:53:54I've got a good plan, too.
3:53:55All right, now then.
3:53:58At least some time before they go, you get the money out before you get that ceiling.
3:54:04We've got a plan for 73.
3:54:06What's that?
3:54:06That applies to 73.
3:54:08That only applies to 73.
3:54:09And that won't have it.
3:54:11That's the plan.
3:54:12Mr. President, you've done this in the Congress.
3:54:15Yeah.
3:54:16Your recommendation was for 73.
3:54:18Yeah.
3:54:20congressional people out, and they will start playing with the idea.
3:54:26And it may not come out just the way we want it, but we'll see.
3:54:31But let's take our number for 72 and sign it out, and that's all right.
3:54:35We have it in ourselves.
3:54:36I'll leave it right there.
3:54:40The majority here wants to present a certain recipe.
3:54:45Once you present that idea to Congress, there's only one ceiling to the president to propose, and that's the ceiling to his budget.
3:54:54Well, when Congress starts moving and acting, they may take that ceiling or some other, higher or lower, depending on the politics of the city.
3:55:05Well, just to give an idea, Mr. President, about the defense area and the burden we've been carrying in terms of GMP changes.
3:55:12You saw that chart of the burden in terms of numbers of jobs, and the chairmen are very conscious of that.
3:55:25But in the third and fourth quarter of 69 and the first quarter of 1970, the spent defense spending was on the order of $79 billion in annual rate.
3:55:37From that figure, the first quarter of 1970,
3:55:42down through it, went from 79 to 75 to 74 to 73 to 72 to 71.
3:55:45In the third quarter of 1971, the defense spending figure was $70 billion.
3:55:50That's a tremendous decline.
3:55:53That's spending.
3:55:54That's spending.
3:55:56Now, the counterparty has that chart on jobs that we saw, but here's the numbers.
3:56:05Now, beginning
3:56:07In the fourth quarter, it has turned around.
3:56:10It went from 70 billion to 71.5 in the fourth quarter.
3:56:15What is doable in getting it up?
3:56:17What is doable?
3:56:18Well, they are going to spend, they claim, and we're on their back in the last two months.
3:56:25They're going to get their rate of spending up to 75.8 in this fiscal year.
3:56:33So that means their increase in the first and second quarter has to be very steep.
3:56:38Now, lots of people don't think they can make it.
3:56:41I think they have to spend a great amount of money for the next six months to do that very fast.
3:56:47Yeah, because if I see your number, you have to air it out.
3:56:51Okay.
3:56:51Well, that's good, John.
3:56:52But I think, assuming that the Defense Department can do it,
3:56:57And our people think that they may be able to hit 75.
3:57:03They swear they can.
3:57:05And we're sort of letting them swear and putting them on the spot and saying, all right, you fellows say you can.
3:57:11There's the number.
3:57:12Now you go ahead.
3:57:12But we don't think you can show us.
3:57:15And they're pretty good at getting rid of money over there.
3:57:18And you have equally good men working on the domestic agencies, even though they spend a hell of a lot less.
3:57:28Right, George?
3:57:28Well, we're working on it.
3:57:30uh... uh...
3:57:49of modern information technology.
3:57:52And this is one of the things we've been working on since I've been at OMK to get better.
3:57:57A real little budget system would be called so that we can get these numbers very properly.
3:58:02Could you follow the scheme of, I mean, I host a fine group of guys, men and women that you've had there, having one person
3:58:13just a writer of each one, you know?
3:58:15Yeah, we do.
3:58:15We do.
3:58:16Yes, sir.
3:58:16We would ask for each one to write their back every day because I agree that many of the departments now, it is just a product, for example, of the Treasurer.
3:58:25Because, I mean, you've got to understand, they just collect.
3:58:28But mine is never that much.
3:58:30Well, I mean, they don't have GSAs and that kind of stuff.
3:58:35Yeah.
3:58:35Okay.
3:58:36So that is the...
3:58:39That is going forward strongly, and we're doing everything we can to take our lives for the better.
3:58:50All right.
3:58:54What is your feeling about the state of energy, with regard to how we handle the size of that?
3:59:06to be, just as Herb has indicated, to be non-apologetic, very affirmative.
3:59:13That a, that a, that a, that a, that a deficit when an economy is operating at a low full capacity is non-inflationary.
3:59:24That's what the Rupert Cook is saying.
3:59:28Remember, it's true what we're saying, what John and I both said, what I did really think.
3:59:33We want to see the climate rising.
3:59:36And this is, in some ways, the best medicine we have to take.
3:59:43And it's an investment in an expanding economy.
3:59:49And we're trying to use a counterpoint in saying that we have worked hard not to have fiscal 73 out of control.
3:59:59that we do have a declining rate of increase in traffic, that we do have the spending ceiling, and we're trying in all sorts of ways to keep the thing from being in a position where two years from now we can't greatly extend the outlets of the residents.
4:00:18That is going to be.
4:00:20We're working on a 74 budget now, beginning that process.
4:00:24And it's very, very hard to see how this is going to be done.
4:00:28But we'll have to, we'll work around it.
4:00:33We are in a very tight situation, all right.
4:00:36I'm sure the analysts will see that.
4:00:38But we're, our whole approach is that this is what we're doing.
4:00:41We have no apologies to make.
4:00:44Well, we've been disrespected in our life.
4:00:47I am inclined to think that as far as your expansionary budget is concerned, I'm speaking now, I was here for the 73 budget, you need not be concerned about the fact that we've asked for our student.
4:01:00They probably will not give, they'll give us one on ourselves and not on them.
4:01:05And as far as the cutting is concerned,
4:01:07I would confidently predict they're not going to end up cutting the budget because of the forces that operate against each other.
4:01:16The big defense guys want more of our defense than we believe in.
4:01:19And so they're going to fight like hell in the cuts in that direction, and they'll end up along their heels.
4:01:26And on the domestic side, hell, they're going to add to this question.
4:01:29They're bound to add to it, because the main good God with all his candidates down there, I mean, they've got all their pet programs, must-use water program, can be self-procured, and all the rest.
4:01:39But we're going to be feeding every chimpanzee or what have you in one of that.
4:01:43And I have to go for a trooper.
4:01:45No, that's all that God has to do.
4:01:47That'd be fine.
4:01:51The point is that your argument about the budget, though, it seems really relates not to what the Congress does, but it really relates to what George is able to get the departments to do in the next six months.
4:02:05I'm not clear about that.
4:02:07That's the biggest step up.
4:02:10It's a great thing.
4:02:13from the second half of that county here to the state locality.
4:02:18And I don't know how much of that depends on that selection.
4:02:23Does that depend on the general revenue sharing?
4:02:25The big increase is the general revenue sharing, and that, of course, depends on getting it directed.
4:02:33Can I ask another question?
4:02:35General revenue sharing in one, I mean, revenue sharing in one form or another is probably going to come out.
4:02:41Is that going to help?
4:02:42Do you think?
4:02:44Well, I think if the states and localities, especially if the states and localities are very confident that it's going to come along, I think there was that kind of thing.
4:02:55Well, that's an additional lag.
4:02:57It's an immediate avalanche.
4:02:59Do you think that will get better?
4:03:00Yeah.
4:03:01As soon as they're confident they're going to get it.
4:03:04Now, the committee is holding hearings now.
4:03:06Is that correct?
4:03:07Yes, sir.
4:03:07Isn't it?
4:03:08Yes, sir.
4:03:09What's your estimate?
4:03:14I can't prove it.
4:03:36Well, but see, if they may just get on their horses hard here, because the heat on them is enormous.
4:03:42If they get done in March... Well, you see, there's a lag in legislation.
4:03:46There's going to be a lag in tooling up at the state level.
4:03:50The levels will be higher for this money.
4:03:53So then, I don't know, the effect, I think, will be mainly the one that Herb's going to be getting through psychology.
4:03:59Right.
4:03:59And now, knowing that this money is coming along,
4:04:02And they can be bolder than their own.
4:04:05They won't fire policemen.
4:04:06A few other things.
4:04:10One other attack being made on the budget is that we have shifted money from fiscal 73 to fiscal 72, and thereby distorted the extent of stimulation in fiscal 72.
4:04:27And I heard about the amount in 73.
4:04:31And what we have said on that is that indeed we have shifted.
4:04:37Where we could find construction projects that could be speeded up, we speeded them up.
4:04:44We pointed out that we have moved some welfare payments to the states across the line that this will be here in about a billion dollars for the sake of helping
4:05:07Is that going to help?
4:05:07Do you think?
4:05:08Well, I think if the states and localities, especially if the states and localities are fairly confident that it's going to come along, I think there was something to say about that.
4:05:22Well, that's an additional lag.
4:05:24It's an immediate lag.
4:05:25I don't care if it doesn't matter.
4:05:27But as soon as they're confident they're going to get it.
4:05:29Now, the committee is holding hearings now.
4:05:32Is that correct?
4:05:32Yes, it is.
4:05:36He's going to tell us what you did with this.
4:05:39What's your...
4:05:43I wasn't marching.
4:05:44They might get it by...
4:05:46They're not getting the march.
4:05:47This will come out as interesting.
4:05:50I'm going to get whatever it's worth.
4:05:55That is not going to be...
4:06:02Well, let's see.
4:06:03They may just get on their horses hard here because the heat on them is enormous.
4:06:06If they get done in March.
4:06:07Well, you see, there's a lag in legislation.
4:06:12There's going to be a lag in tilting up at the state level.
4:06:15There's going to be a lag in this plane.
4:06:18It's going to be a lag.
4:06:21will be banning the one that hurt Wendy through psychology.
4:06:26Money is coming along and they can be bolder on their own.
4:06:31They won't fire police and a few other things.
4:06:36One other attack being made on the budget is that we have shifted money from fiscal 73 to fiscal 72 and thereby distorted
4:06:49extended stipulation in fiscal 72 and I heard that it dampened the amount in 73.
4:06:55And what we have said on that is that indeed we have shifted where we could find construction projects that could be speeded up, we speeded them up.
4:07:09We pointed out that we have moved some welfare payments to the states
4:07:15across the line for the sake of helping the states with their fiscal problems, anticipating the revenue sharing would come in and would take that up.
4:07:32And so that's a move in that direction.
4:07:35So we've been candid about what has been done.
4:07:43That's not overly common or crucial.
4:07:48They mean that they mean something more.
4:07:51Namely, that you have that amount of shifting on the books which simply cannot and will not take place physically.
4:08:01Therefore, the rate of expenditure during the year will be more even than the budget suggests.
4:08:09Now,
4:08:12I think the way, and I think that's true, Mark, maybe.
4:08:16Now, the way I would handle that, as you said, although it's simply to deny it, but not belligerently, because if it's more evil, it's not a bad thing.
4:08:26Well, I think there's another thing about that, for example,
4:08:32You're working on it.
4:08:51All these things that we've been talking about since the fiscal 72 are in the hands of the Catholic.
4:08:57Now, they don't have services that would put yourself in a mental hurt, and I have this, and I have John, I have the teacher, and I have the Catholic meeting.
4:09:11Is it clear to the cabinet, or is there need to be anything else said on, do you want me to do anything more, call anybody, do anything, and so forth?
4:09:22No, I think it's perfect.
4:09:24Okay.
4:09:24I think we'll follow up on it.
4:09:25We'll follow up on it.
4:09:25I would have been surprised to talk to the various cabinet members now.
4:09:31A little, they didn't understand.
4:09:32About what their jobs were doing.
4:09:34Yeah, they don't understand.
4:09:35They don't follow their budgets perfectly.
4:09:36Well, they follow them to the best.
4:09:39I'm older, but Tim was there.
4:09:41He was not very good.
4:09:42He knows exactly what I'm talking about.
4:09:44Good.
4:09:46All right, we'll school the others.
4:09:48All right, we're even.
4:09:50Good, good.
4:09:50And let me say, use my name in vain or any other way to help you.
4:09:55Okay.
4:09:56Now, you just tell them why you call them the president every 30 minutes.
4:09:59Every 30 minutes.
4:10:03Archer, how about a word on money supply?
4:10:06You heard, sir, says that M1 is, the M1 is the figure that concerns you.
4:10:09Well, yeah, yeah.
4:10:09Yeah.
4:10:10You know, we have, you know, it's very, it's a big increase.
4:10:15It's a chance to be as we're expecting, but I don't care if it's not increasing.
4:10:22So, Bertha's right about that, but I don't know what to do.
4:10:29I'm doing everything that I can, but you see, we don't control them.
4:10:34What do we control is reserves.
4:10:38People decide, people make the decisions.
4:10:40They'll keep their money in their checking account.
4:10:43That accounts for that money.
4:10:45or they'll put in an interest-bearing account at a commercial or a restaurant.
4:10:49Yes, sir.
4:10:49And we can't be silent about it.
4:10:52Now, let me just show you the, uh...
4:10:58They don't mean to sign this for us, but we don't mean to want to be shitting on it.
4:11:07They just get back to the point.
4:11:13You see the...
4:11:15The N1 looks sick in the fourth quarter.
4:11:20A rate of increase of 1.1%.
4:11:24Terrible, you see?
4:11:25Then you look at N2, and the rate of increase is 80%.
4:11:33Now, if you look at time and savings deposits, other than the large certificates of deposits,
4:11:44And the rate of increase is 15%.
4:11:45And people are deciding.
4:11:51You have my own reasons for the moment.
4:11:57You can only speculate about that.
4:12:00People are deciding to hold their liquid assets not in the form of cash so much, but in the form of interest-bearing people.
4:12:12Well, we're pumping reserves into the commercial banks this month.
4:12:20This month we're pumping in reserves at an annual rate of 25% plus.
4:12:29And the bankers are going wild.
4:12:33Very, very, very glad to be here.
4:12:35Your response is one of mine, not two.
4:12:39Did you hear me yell the other day, when I received the answer, Lee, I've got a subject, a subject much hanged over there.
4:12:50A man hanged over there.
4:12:53Well, Mr. President, the, uh, the, uh, on the management side, I've got the... Of course.
4:13:04On the manager's side, the New York bank is less than fully cooperative, and I've almost at the moment taken over the New York bank and running that operation myself.
4:13:23The manager is down at least once a week.
4:13:32All I can tell you is, Mr.
4:13:33Friend, do all I can, really.
4:13:36But when he criticizes, and I can't just dismiss his criticism, he's not going to help, am I?
4:13:40I hope you're really all right, because that is the management of the accountants in Washington.
4:13:48The what?
4:13:48The management of the old farmhouse.
4:13:51Well, you know, this is, uh, this is, uh, you know, this is a very difficult problem to deal with.
4:13:59But you see, one of the difficulties is,
4:14:03We have a private public system, and we show the implications of it, and why this is a difficult achievement.
4:14:18The Federal Reserve, the chairman is 42,500.
4:14:19Chairman, Mr. President, I think you know he's not complaining.
4:14:23I don't want to change him.
4:14:26Not for me, ever.
4:14:30The...
4:14:30I will say it.
4:14:32No, I say it.
4:14:32I'm not going to take five and a half years.
4:14:37Now, the other board members get 40.
4:14:40The staff is a jester to them, you see.
4:14:44And they walk pretty high.
4:14:45I haven't done a simple service.
4:14:47But, through that season, during New York, the president was under my control.
4:14:55He gets 90.
4:14:58The manager of the desk, the vice president, is 75.
4:15:00The fellow who runs the desk is 25 or 60, you see.
4:15:07Now, if I move into
4:15:12How can I move him?
4:15:13Don't move him.
4:15:14I don't know if John's going to be sizzling.
4:15:16What's that?
4:15:17Just move him.
4:15:17Sizzle.
4:15:17Don't move him.
4:15:20You really ought to take over that area of the operation.
4:15:23He probably complains to the janitor a lot more.
4:15:25I'll take the night one tomorrow.
4:15:27The tail should wipe the dog down.
4:15:30Well, it's not wiping the dog.
4:15:34John, if I can find a way of taking it over,
4:15:38My devices, other than those that I'm using now, which are psychological, you say, you understand?
4:15:45I'll do it.
4:15:46I'll do it.
4:15:47I don't want to work.
4:15:50I'll help if we can.
4:15:52Well, you can help, Mr. President.
4:15:55No.
4:15:55Would you call one of them?
4:15:57No.
4:15:58Get rid of Brown.
4:16:00Brown?
4:16:00Yeah.
4:16:01Well, now you're talking about the U.N. Yeah.
4:16:03Well, that will give me enough support.
4:16:04Well, do call one, unfortunately.
4:16:10The U.N.
4:16:11I'm going to check to see whether that thing's about to be that job.
4:16:16The one job is not one that we can claim for crime or even a new ball must be given to somebody else from another country.
4:16:27But I'm going to make another check.
4:16:28I ask you to help me, if you will.
4:16:34That is of very great importance to us, to you, Steve, you know.
4:16:38And we've got to facilitate an ambassadorship.
4:16:41You know, the UN, I think he likes us permanent jobless.
4:16:46You know, there's enough prestige attached to the UN.
4:16:50Well, you see the different ideas that's there, but I see what you mean.
4:16:55Would you call Bill O'Connell up?
4:16:58We've got to have him in the UN job.
4:17:00Okay.
4:17:03All right, John, can we go around the clock to the international problems, or anything else that you would like to?
4:17:11Well, there are two or three things of interest.
4:17:13The trade, Belarus trade negotiations with these various countries have been going fairly unsatisfactory.
4:17:22The Europeans are going to agree to something probably Monday.
4:17:29not nearly as much as they should, but they're being quiet on some things, such as their preferential treatment of other countries.
4:17:45But they will probably do something on citrus, less than they should.
4:17:50They'll do something on tobacco.
4:17:54They say on grain storage they will do something on wheat, but they claim that they sold all their other grains, barley and so forth, to Russia, which is all right if they have.
4:18:04They're going to do nothing on grain pricing.
4:18:06The French are adamant on that score.
4:18:10We may get whipsawed.
4:18:11The Italians are on our side on grain prices.
4:18:17They say that they're not going to give on citrus tobacco unless France gives on grain.
4:18:23So we may get whipsawed there Monday.
4:18:25But in any event, we probably will get something out of them that will be of mediocre value.
4:18:35The Japanese are going to get a long list of things out of the Japanese.
4:18:40I don't intend to go into a lot of its verbiage.
4:18:56Some of it's mean, some of it isn't.
4:18:58They're going to go away with the tariffs on soybeans completely, but it's only 5%.
4:19:02They said they had $329 million in sales last year.
4:19:07By far the biggest...
4:19:10agricultural items we had.
4:19:12We'll get something on, we'll get something on beef, we'll get something on beef, we'll get something on citrus.
4:19:18We'll have to open up three states to the mandarin orange issue.
4:19:21Because a lot, a lot of things must be 2025 items that we'll get some relief on there.
4:19:27We can, we can handle it any way we want to.
4:19:31The Canadians, they'll do nothing.
4:19:33Just to completely back up, we'll do nothing.
4:19:38And they just claim that they've got a political problem in 1973, and they don't actually do anything.
4:19:43We say to them, well, we've got a political problem in 72.
4:19:46Truth of the matter is, they don't want to cooperate.
4:19:49They're being implacable, completely, wholly unreasonable.
4:19:54And I think we ought to start to...
4:19:58I had their old meeting with them in 72, and I just told them that was a bad idea to do so.
4:20:04Well, this kind of attitude won't let us have any further discussion.
4:20:09We just have to continue to allow them to do whatever is in our best interest.
4:20:17And what we ought to do, probably in a way, is to fairly soon give notice of termination of the order.
4:20:28And we ought to reduce our
4:20:32allowances for tourists to the same unit they allow, which is to give our tourists $100 a month for 30 days.
4:20:44We restrict them to $25 duty-free every three months, which is what they've done.
4:20:52Uh, and we'll just count them, just on the thing, and just the question of status under the interest, and the interest of the organization, I can automatically appeal that we sent them in for the goddamn tax, at their request.
4:21:04And we, and we, frankly, we just gave them special leave over the years, and I'll cast them on a trip up there, and I'll go up there and tell them all these things.
4:21:12They, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they would not have anything official, and he's back here talking to them.
4:21:24And I just want to make a note.
4:21:28John, if you'd follow up on this, you were mentioned to...
4:21:41Didn't I hear you?
4:21:41Who's doing this?
4:21:43Well, it's... Hey, hey, it's me.
4:21:45I'm going out there.
4:21:46I'm supposed to go and see that.
4:21:48So they follow up to you.
4:21:51I promise to not do it.
4:21:53And frankly, because he'd seen that in Russia, he has to counter it.
4:22:01But I see no reason to go up there and see the damn Canadians.
4:22:04If they're acting this way, I really can't do it.
4:22:06Because I've got a damn thing to discuss with them.
4:22:08I mean, Canada and the United States have got long and hard, hard border lines.
4:22:11We don't have to fight them.
4:22:14Damn, we just can't go up there and act as if when they're not cooperating.
4:22:25I would like to reconsider the trip.
4:22:28And then we can, you know, hang that out there for a little bit.
4:22:35I really can't.
4:22:35I have to do it.
4:22:36I can't.
4:22:36You see, we do these things.
4:22:38I go up there.
4:22:39They'll take the damn trip.
4:22:40Why?
4:22:40Why do I have to go out and do this?
4:22:42But we don't have to do these things.
4:22:45Oh, well, what the hell are we talking about?
4:22:46I think he was on for a minute.
4:22:47At some point, you see, we're perfectly figuring out.
4:22:51France had already said that we were irresponsible, that the steps in this budget here just means that we're not paying attention to our business.
4:23:01And, well, that's what all of us have done.
4:23:06Thank you for your question.
4:23:08That's right, and they're destroying Earth and they're spreading all over Europe.
4:23:11So our problem is probably a long shot in terms of what these people are trying to do to us.
4:23:18And I think we've got a year or two now to get back at us.
4:23:21Well, that's right.
4:23:22So long as we have this international launch everything open, and I had a long session yesterday, long this morning, and what the other countries are trying to do is push us back into a position of convertibility.
4:23:33And I said, well, just say to them, we're not going to do that.
4:23:42And I told Paul and Bill Dale, and I said, let's just, you just count it and say that, that let's have a moratorium on weekdays.
4:23:53If under the rules, the property has soon gone over $60 million, and all she's got is dollars.
4:24:00But you can't pay the fund in dollars because we're in deficit to the fund.
4:24:03And under the Articles, you can't pay any currency of a country which is in deficit.
4:24:09So God, in fact, can't pay $60 million in dollars.
4:24:13They've got to pay the Dutch marks, or Dutch guilders,
4:24:18So where do they get those?
4:24:20Well, they normally come to us to give.
4:24:22So we buy them and, in fact, take their dollars.
4:24:24This is an infertility that we've always done.
4:24:28Then they pay their 16 million.
4:24:30And Dutch Markets and things, everybody's coming to your house.
4:24:34I said, no.
4:24:37Just so we have more time, more payments to the fund.
4:24:40I said, every country's going to get some.
4:24:43And so that's more for me anyway.
4:24:45I just have no, no payments, no, no interest in that business.
4:24:55Well, just sit there to preserve our negotiating position for years.
4:24:59They're going back to convertibility.
4:25:01I'm a little afraid of that.
4:25:05Because we
4:25:06This gets all of the central bankers and the private bankers and finance ministers worrying staringly.
4:25:15They throw doubt on everything.
4:25:18I proceed.
4:25:22I think it's a pretty interesting industry to work in.
4:25:25Well, we have some of the countries like Ceylon.
4:25:28If Ceylon, they want to make a $74,000 payment, they come to us.
4:25:32We make in some drawing rights to pay it.
4:25:35Yes, Ceylon's been kind to us.
4:25:36She's got comics.
4:25:38Now it's the president.
4:25:38Maybe we don't have that money.
4:25:41You know, a lot of the things we, in a lot of countries, we'll have some of them, we won't have them.
4:25:48But they don't want us getting back into a confrontation with anybody but the same children who want to try and go back to a system of convertibility that we can't live with.
4:25:59Won't the German fellow vote in Congress?
4:26:01Oh, sure.
4:26:02Sure.
4:26:02That's the thing, isn't it?
4:26:04They'll get a good rate of exchange.
4:26:06That's the thing, isn't it?
4:26:07We're not the only source.
4:26:10You're right.
4:26:11I would handle this.
4:26:15Let this be done.
4:26:19I don't want these markets stirring and I don't want these central bankers and finance ministers casting doubt, doubt, doubt.
4:26:35I want to come to Mr. Reese Franklin, Mr. Hughes.
4:26:38There's only that right now.
4:26:39You just said, and I just said, the public art budget, they're already cashed in now.
4:26:43I know, therefore, therefore, we're dealing with that.
4:26:48Look, there's the president's message to the Congress on the ceiling.
4:26:55There's the action you decided to take now.
4:26:57I think it was very creative, John, on lengthening the debt, putting out a long-term issue.
4:27:03That will help the plan.
4:27:06I think all along, we've got to ask ourselves the question,
4:27:13But are we building confidence, adding to confidence, removing doubt, putting an end to hesitation and uncertainty?
4:27:21I agree with you, Arthur, and the only point is that we could get into a long discussion between these two here.
4:27:27But let me remind you, Mr. President, that notwithstanding the success that we had in these international negotiations, Great Britain wound up with a trade service with the largest in the history of the United Kingdom.
4:27:38Japan, for all her problems, she wound up with $7.5 billion trade surplus in 1971.
4:27:48And notwithstanding her devaluation or revaluation, she is now anticipating a trade surplus in 1972 of $7 billion.
4:27:57This is enormous, just enormous.
4:28:03This is equivalent to us having
4:28:06It's probably a thirty-five, eighty dollar train, shouldn't you?
4:28:10Uh...
4:28:11Now, our trade problems are not over by a long shot, and our trade is not over by a long shot.
4:28:17Believe me, we're not out of the woods.
4:28:20We're still not competitive, and we're still going to have to deal on a hard-nosed basis with these countries with respect to barriers, administrative barriers, tariff barriers, and otherwise.
4:28:33So we're going to need to start doing other things, and we're going to run probably another
4:28:42trade deficit for a number of months this year to assure the world.
4:28:49And this is what I heard.
4:28:50This is one downside on this thing.
4:28:54And again, I just want to point this out to you.
4:28:59The common market is now ten, not six.
4:29:04And they're saying they have preferential trade arrangements with 28 more countries.
4:29:11You're going to see, in fact, you're going to see right now in Europe the strongest economic combine cartels in the world today.
4:29:21The United States is not the biggest number of firemen.
4:29:23Europe is right now.
4:29:25They're going to be self-sufficient.
4:29:27They've already made a special trade arrangement for 28 countries.
4:29:30And they, in fact, say to hell with you.
4:29:33This is why everybody's been talking.
4:29:34We say we want to protest, but they say, no, you can't protest.
4:29:37We don't care.
4:29:37We're not going to give money to a little preferential trade arrangement.
4:29:43So what they're doing, they're building them a trading line that's going to be far superior, far stronger than anything we've got.
4:29:50No doubt in my mind about it.
4:29:52It's just happening right now.
4:29:55Now, this is all for different subjects, but I'll pursue it.
4:29:58It's certainly of a sense of the importance of not getting back into any form of conversion.
4:30:05There's no question that, you know, if you get in that, that leads to, uh, creative crisis, of course.
4:30:12You can't get back into it, but we developed a different policy, a different trade policy ourselves, and moved aggressively until we could all send it, until we could live it.
4:30:20That's correct.
4:30:20Can't live it without being able to.
4:30:24But we, at the same time, we ought to write, we ought to type, we ought to... Yeah, yeah, we don't want to... We don't want to shake the experience of the rest of the world and so forth.
4:30:33So, no question.
4:30:34Well, we'll, uh...
4:30:37But anyway, that's...
4:30:38I don't want anything else, sir.
4:30:39We ought to have... Let's see.
4:30:40The Japanese will let us know this week what they're going to do.
4:30:46And finally, the Canadians let us know this afternoon...
4:30:53Monday the minister's meeting on the community meeting, so we ought to go, that ought to all be settled by, I'll say, the middle of next week.
4:31:05The only real disappointment where I think we can, have to do something about this candidate, would you, uh, pick the other one?
4:31:12Well, I'll tell you two of them.
4:31:14Two of them are going to have to talk, and I'll get Rogers to see what I mean.
4:31:18Because I can see the problem there with the Canadians.
4:31:22I think Art has got a good point.
4:31:23Maybe the best thing to do is to cool it for a while.
4:31:25But we might play a little other game, too, you know.
4:31:27We can get messages through other than some of the state channels.
4:31:31The difficulty is the State Department has a real obligation to get along with all these countries.
4:31:36So they are going to play a hard line with these folks.
4:31:40And we can't talk out of two corners of our mouth, but I have to.
4:31:44I have to not.
4:31:46Truth of the matter to me,
4:31:49and he's all love and kisses at the moment, says nice things, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but we must remember that he's doing it for a very selfish reason, which I totally understand.
4:31:59He's in deep trouble because
4:32:02He's played up to Kosicka, and now he's got to play up to me.
4:32:06Played up to you, I swear to God.
4:32:10We're delighted in the walkway, but Jesus said, they just say, you know, up your tail.
4:32:15You can't do it.
4:32:15You can't let them do that.
4:32:16We'll see.
4:32:17That's probably a nice chapter.
4:32:19Yeah, a nice chapter.
4:32:20I can't imagine how much you can say a word about the international.
4:32:33Banking for tearing abroad can blow up things for us in a way that would be most uncomfortable.
4:32:42Now, whatever we're going to do about convertibility, we've got to talk the language now of working out a new plan for convertibility.
4:32:55We have no choice, Mr. President.
4:32:58These exchange markets can get boiling.
4:33:01They have been a little insecure.
4:33:04People are now saying this is an assembly in agreement.
4:33:07It is not firm.
4:33:10Now, I think we've got to talk about it.
4:33:13In any case, I'm doing it, Mr. President, once you know it.
4:33:16Next, I think, on this gold thing.
4:33:19I think we ought to go with that legislation promptly.
4:33:22We ought to state that he has betrayed me.
4:33:25No, no.
4:33:27Let me just say a word.
4:33:30We've said that before.
4:33:31I know that.
4:33:32What I would do, I would go with that legislation promptly.
4:33:36I would say that these trade conversations have been successful.
4:33:41We have gotten all that we wanted, but we've made progress.
4:33:45I would say that, next I would say that we have created a foundation for conversations looking to the longer term on trade adjustments.
4:33:56And then I say if our expectations are not fulfilled, then we have strong weapons that we can use, but we do not, we're quite confident we won't have to use them.
4:34:09Now, Mr. President, I think if you proceed in that way, you strengthen confidence abroad, you minimize difficulties for Congress, I think, let me put it a little more generally, a lot of people are talking, people in this government are talking about fiscal and monetary policy.
4:34:29I don't think that's our problem.
4:34:32I'll let you take the money, sir.
4:34:36The banks...
4:34:38You know, we talk about M1 and M2 and reserves and so on.
4:34:42The banks are loaded up with money.
4:34:46They're hunting for customers.
4:34:49They're going abroad, searching for customers, begging for them.
4:34:54Your, uh, your best sales are flooded with money.
4:34:57They can't place the money to have.
4:34:58We don't have money problems, Heather.
4:35:00We don't have the banks to be able to keep our customers.
4:35:03Yeah, I know.
4:35:05And to lower their price, to try to get a customer.
4:35:09Yeah, I know that, George.
4:35:10But what I'm trying to say is, it's not...
4:35:14The lack of liquidity that is holding back this economy.
4:35:18What is holding back this economy is... You know, we've had it hard since 1965.
4:35:24We've had an accumulation of troubles in this country, and confidence has deteriorated at this lousy war we have now.
4:35:35Riots in the streets, on the campuses, well, sure, it's quieted down, that's good, but once you have confidence in the British, it takes time before it's rebuilt.
4:35:46Now, the argument, it is that President's business confidence is a good deal higher today than it was six months ago or even three months ago, but it's not high enough.
4:35:57And I think we, you know, I don't know what to say.
4:36:10I don't know what to say.
4:36:19But we've got a debt ceiling first.
4:36:21We've got a red loose shirt now.
4:36:23I've seen you go two walkers up there.
4:36:25George and I have to go up on the debt ceiling Monday.
4:36:28We'll have the gold bill up there.
4:36:31You're going to get the gold bill up here right away, aren't you?
4:36:33We can get it up and fix it.
4:36:34We know on the gold bill.
4:36:36That's why I brought in John and Graham.
4:36:38We know on the gold bill it's going to take time to get it done anyway.
4:36:45But we'll get it up and make a statement for weeks.
4:36:48We expect the trade association to be completed by the time the bill gets to my desk.
4:36:53Is that what we'll do?
4:36:54Right, John?
4:36:55Basically, that's what we'll say.
4:36:57Okay, well, let's get it ourselves.
4:36:59When we get out there, we're going to be asked.
4:37:01We're going to have to.
4:37:03We're going to be asked.
4:37:04That's why you have to put it up with that, with that kid.
4:37:07And all I'm saying to you is that we've got to know that you're difficult.
4:37:13maneuvering with respect to trade matters and international monetary matters.
4:37:21What I want is an atmosphere such that the doubts and the hesitations of the financial people are created, they are created, Mr. President.
4:37:35You ought to see the cables of the correspondents I hear.
4:37:38The bankers are panicky people, and they communicate this disease to other people in there.
4:37:46That's all I'm getting at.
4:37:49John, the next speech you make, you're in the bankers.
4:37:52Ha, ha, ha, ha.
4:37:53Make one of your soothing speeches out of it.
4:37:55Ha, ha, ha, ha.
4:37:55Ha, ha, ha.
4:37:58Well, you've got to go test by and so forth and so on.
4:38:04For purposes of our own meeting, but I actually guess that Kurt and me and Mr. John, we've all got busy schedules and so forth, but I was thinking that about every two weeks would be useful.
4:38:17Does that sound about right to you?
4:38:19About every two weeks.
4:38:21So we'll be here in about two, George, you follow up with Mike and stuff.
4:38:30And incidentally, on this, the time of day for me is, you're off.
4:38:35In other words, I put this ahead of other things.
4:38:37So if somebody's got to testify on that day, or somebody's got to do something, I think 5 o'clock at night, I don't mind.
4:38:44In other words, another thing that's good for me, a breakfast meeting is fine at some time, if you want to do that.
4:38:50But work it out so that in a couple of weeks, maybe it's actually not going to be a bad idea to get up in a lousy frame of mind and go raise hell with each other.
4:39:00Let's go over here.
4:39:25You know, it's quite a nice day out.
4:39:26If you look out, I don't know, how's it feel?
4:39:28Is it warm or cold?
4:39:29It's very cold.
4:39:32It's very cold.
4:39:32Oh, I try to walk the Dutch Prime Minister out.
4:39:35Yeah, she's a big man.
4:39:37You know, it's a funny thing, John.
4:39:39This Dutch Prime Minister has never been to Asia.
4:39:43Curious thing on all the relations.
4:39:45Now, the Queen did go, but she didn't go to her mother's reception.
4:39:49So in the Dutch, I'll never forget when I was driving through the countryside in Asia, I took a tree, of course, from Chicago, and I went up just way up in the mountains.
4:40:01I remember seeing, you know, here's an Indonesian with, you know, all these brown faces on his mouth, and here's a group of people having a picnic over here.
4:40:12There's a bunch of tourists and hikers and the rest.
4:40:15And they were Dutch.
4:40:17There are a lot of Dutch people there, you know, who stayed.
4:40:20And they've done a hell of a lot for that country and still do, and the Indonesians don't want them.
4:40:26So it's very interesting how some of these countries who had this colonial background, after an initial reaction of hatred, finally determined, well, you know, they can do things for us because they're tied to the school systems, the health systems, some language, and all this, and they're sort of cultured.
4:40:49Interestingly enough, that's the way it works in this area.
4:40:55What do you mean?
4:40:56It's not to our end.
4:40:56It's to our end.
4:42:24I have to write down there.
4:42:53You know, Brazil is the United States plus a Texas.
4:42:56That's what they always say.
4:42:59That's before we got Alaska.
4:43:01And it's a huge place.
4:43:03But beyond that, we forget that we always think of Brazil being ham and ponds, lakes and jungles.
4:43:09And it has a very temperate climate.
4:43:13It's got millions of acres.
4:43:15It's like the American Midwest, right?
4:43:18There's millions of acres.
4:43:21And I tell you, there's a country that in 15 years, 20 years, got $100 million, $100 million at the end of the century.
4:43:35And boy, there's going to be some most Portuguese work.
4:43:38Well, they have the best government at the moment.
4:43:41and the Americans.
4:43:43They have, at the moment.
4:43:44Now, if I had a good government, a very good government is a lot different from what our people here want.
4:43:51As I told the next prime minister, I said, well, then you've got to understand that the Latins, the Latin countries need, as I saw it, the French style, the French constitution rather than the American constitution.
4:44:07I said, basically, they need a strong,
4:44:11head of state, and so forth.
4:44:12The Italians desperately need that.
4:44:14When the Spanish move from after the period of Franco, they can't go to an idea like ours where the dam would blow up.
4:44:21And the difficulty in all of Latin America is that they have never found the delicate balance.
4:44:27In Latin America, you either have a dictatorship, total dictatorship, or you have just a wild anarchy.
4:44:36And what you need, I mean,
4:44:38The detainees of De Gaulle was their mind on the practice, which is also a Latin country.
4:44:44Remember, they had 13 or 14 parties.
4:44:45The detainees of De Gaulle.
4:44:48It was not as foreign policy and all the rest.
4:44:50But the genius that he called, in addition to restoring the spirit of France, was to insist on a constitution that made the president of France, in more power than the president of the United States, the strong, central figure, and not put aside by these goddamn parties.
4:45:06And that's what made the country go.
4:45:08And frankly, it takes time.
4:45:09They're going to have to go that way eventually.
4:45:12But in Brazil,
4:45:15as it moves along in these other countries in Latin America, could learn from that, rather than listening to what our good people from the State Department say, look, what you need is our kind of democracy.
4:45:29Look, we have a hell of a time running our kind of democracy.
4:45:33What can people do who have no idea about the other background?
4:45:36Well, that's my speech for today.
4:45:40OK. Good luck.
4:45:42See you all.
4:45:46Oh, John?
4:45:46Yes, sir?
4:45:49I called Walter Nelson, which, well, good.
4:45:59Walter, my doctor told him that he was a little crazy.
4:46:04Did he still need to come back?
4:46:06He's still very busy.
4:46:07But is it decent for a mother to phone his 3-year-old grandpa?
4:47:04Thank you for watching.
4:48:41Thank you.

Nixon & Woods on Economic policy and Federal budget

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Also recorded on January 26, 1972

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