Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 659 › Conversation 659-020

Nixon, Kissinger & Atkins on Vietnam War negotiations and Soviet-US relations

Friday, January 28, 1972 · 4:48 PM–5:03 PM ET · Oval Office

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.; Atkins, Oliver F. ("Ollie")Conversation659-020 on Tape 659 (tape position 04:39:16–04:54:20)StartFriday, January 28, 1972 at 4:48 PMEndFriday, January 28, 1972 at 5:03 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 659-020 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Henry Kissinger met with photographer Ollie Atkins to pose for promotional images before transitioning to a strategic review of foreign policy and public relations. Kissinger updated the President on recent discussions with Soviet Ambassador Anatoliy Dobrynin regarding the upcoming Moscow summit, arms control, and potential Vietnam peace proposals. The pair also analyzed the domestic political response to Nixon's recent peace plan, expressing frustration with press criticism while noting broad public support despite media preoccupation with Kissinger's role as a secret emissary.

Audio

Download MP3 (part 1) · 168.3 MB ·Download MP3 (part 2) · 168.5 MB ·Download MP3 (part 3) · 84.7 MB

This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 04:39:16 into the tape and ends around 04:54:20.

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

· Timestamps are positions within the full tape recording.
4:40:32Well, I don't have anything else to bother you about, Mr. President.
4:40:35Is there any information that you'd like to hear?
4:40:36No, I have no other comparison to Mr. Paul, sir.
4:40:43Yeah.
4:40:43When the hell ever dreamed up the idea, it should be a white tie.
4:40:48Ah, I decided one white tie this year.
4:40:51That's it.
4:41:03It isn't anymore.
4:41:05Do you wear those new collars?
4:41:11Do you have a new collar, or do you wear those little ones?
4:41:16I don't know, but I've probably worn them.
4:41:17But it's awful.
4:41:18Do you wear them with the collar button that pins on?
4:41:20I don't know.
4:41:21You wear a fixed collar.
4:41:22It's all part of the sock.
4:41:25Well, it's soft until it gets to the laundry.
4:41:29That's right.
4:41:29But anyway...
4:41:33All right, February 15th.
4:41:36Yes, Senator, you saw mine, the money.
4:41:38I took it for old.
4:41:40It's like pop.
4:41:43Yeah.
4:41:43No, commuted.
4:41:45Commuted.
4:41:45That's a very good conversation.
4:41:47Is that it?
4:41:48Honestly, it's not good or good, honestly.
4:42:03I wonder if it's...
4:42:06I don't know what you said.
4:43:04But so many compared to the country itself.
4:43:08But beautiful today.
4:43:10Two inches north.
4:43:11Yeah.
4:43:48I'll end it.
4:43:53I'll end it.
4:43:53We do want to see this as a matter of course.
4:43:57I want to see what the greatest change
4:44:36Mr. Breeden was bothering all over me.
4:44:38I spent three hours with him.
4:44:41Thank you.
4:44:44Let's see, what do you want here?
4:44:45The kids would like to give me some idea what they'd like to do.
4:44:50And they would like to make one very formal picture of the two of you standing here in front of the flags in color.
4:44:56And then they also, after we do that, we move to another position.
4:44:59Now, we're doing this in color and black and white, so we have both whites.
4:45:03Okay?
4:45:04Okay.
4:45:06Just stand right up together, but I'm looking right up to you.
4:45:10Dr. Goodison?
4:45:11Yes.
4:45:11That's right.
4:45:16I'm not really sure he doesn't think I'll be able to stand.
4:45:22I'm just looking right out.
4:45:25That's right.
4:45:25Now, when you want to move this position, we'll check your focus.
4:45:37You got it?
4:45:41All right.
4:45:45Mr. President, sitting on the edge of the desk, like I am, Dr. Kissinger, right out of the country.
4:45:51All right.
4:45:52Well, it's in profile.
4:45:54Pretty close to the desk.
4:45:59That's right.
4:45:59All of us are looking at each other.
4:46:01Now, keep your eyes open, Mr. President, looking at Dr. Kissinger's eyes.
4:46:06That's right.
4:46:06Any complete casual talk.
4:46:35Let me change just a little bit.
4:46:37That's right.
4:46:37We've heard that so often for 30 years.
4:46:40I think that's just the way it is.
4:46:44He said he could not believe it.
4:46:56But he meant that he couldn't do it.
4:47:06All right, and one other change, sir.
4:47:10All right?
4:47:10Mr. President, stand right here.
4:47:12Hands on the desk like this.
4:47:14All right?
4:47:14And I'm going to put you over on this side.
4:47:18All right, I'd like you to stand and talk right in this way, sir.
4:47:25Good night.
4:47:27Start to lean on your fingers, Mr. President.
4:47:32Yes, sir.
4:47:34It doesn't hurt to lean forward a little bit either.
4:47:46All right.
4:47:46All right.
4:47:54I'm going to make a change.
4:47:55I'm Dr. Kissinger.
4:47:56Right across the table.
4:48:18Yes, sir.
4:48:20Thank you.
4:48:23I still avoided getting into the Middle East.
4:48:25I figured the longer I can keep them dangling.
4:48:28But next Friday comes the moment of truth.
4:48:31I'd better start talking to him.
4:48:35So he called his attitude was very insufferable.
4:48:40Oh, he said, we want it.
4:48:41We want big agreements made.
4:48:43We don't want it to be a social visit.
4:48:46We...
4:48:48We'll make them.
4:48:49And he said, you and I, I mean, he and I, we're going to have it all worked out by early May.
4:48:55The communique will be all set.
4:48:57When you leave, your president doesn't have to worry.
4:48:59This will all be done.
4:49:01And, well, he said he practically guaranteed us all the treatment.
4:49:11The trade, it's done.
4:49:12Middle East, we hope for.
4:49:15And I told him, he asked a number of questions on Vietnam.
4:49:20One that was rather interesting.
4:49:22She said, how about withdrawal for prisoners and not a ceasefire, but a sort of a standstill.
4:49:30And just for the record, I said, just so that we couldn't say, so that we can show this at some time, I said, look, if they make any serious proposition like that, it will get the most careful consideration here.
4:49:45We may want to say at some point we told the Russians.
4:49:50Yeah, we might have to give that some kind of stance.
4:49:57And then he said, how do we set on a Geneva conference?
4:50:00I said, we afford it.
4:50:01He said, well, that's what he knew, but he just wanted to confirm it.
4:50:08I'm amazed that the North Vietnamese have been much tamer than I thought they'd be.
4:50:14They haven't turned it down.
4:50:18How come?
4:50:19I am not so sure.
4:50:22The tragedy, the crime is that our people are turning it down.
4:50:29By who?
4:50:30Well, Joe Kraft is beginning to niggle away at it.
4:50:34Well, of course.
4:50:35And Rester.
4:50:36Rester.
4:50:36Yeah.
4:50:38That's a hell of a note.
4:50:39Now, these guys have no responsibility, so they piss on it.
4:50:45What are they pissing on?
4:50:46The only thing that we haven't offered yet, and never will, is to turn over... That's what they want.
4:50:57But I think actually... On the other hand, Henry, when we say, so Joe cracked, I think we've got a lot of public support.
4:51:07Mr. President, I think we have, in a few minutes, I'm going to see the P.O.W.
4:51:12I think, Mr. President, we have gained more from that speech than I thought was possible.
4:51:22What they have done on the time cover, they've called me
4:51:26They have put my name on it.
4:51:29They have put my picture on it.
4:51:31But they have a heading that says, Nixon's Secret Emissary.
4:51:35So it's...
4:51:38I mean, that's the... Well, it concerns me, Mr. President, because... Well, that doesn't bother me.
4:51:47What bothers me is when something good happens, you ought to get the credit because, A, you deserve it,
4:51:52and B, none of us is running.
4:51:54That's right.
4:51:56But when they say Nixon's secret emissary, that makes me the two.
4:52:01Right.
4:52:02But getting back to this...
4:52:03If we let the impression that I did it... Sure, so crap, this is on Washington Post.
4:52:12And yet you have some very interesting editorial support.
4:52:16Oh, I would say... Or that we usually have.
4:52:19Oh, John Scali says it's still overwhelming.
4:52:23Yeah.
4:52:24So I just wouldn't worry about it.
4:52:26I don't worry.
4:52:26It does bother me.
4:52:27It's wrong.
4:52:28It's wrong.
4:52:29Every goddamn American ought to stand up and be for this.
4:52:32And ought to be proud and pleased that his president worked so hard.
4:52:36That son of a bitch is proud.
4:52:38It's probably meant because you didn't tell him.
4:52:42Well, he's not yet really attacked it, but he's... And the same with the New York Times.
4:52:47That son of a bitch, Lyman, gives us one good editorial that he calls up today with ten hot ideas of how we can improve the author.
4:52:56And that's our trouble.
4:52:57It's a moral collapse of our leadership group.
4:53:00Instead of somebody saying...
4:53:01The collapse is unbelievable.
4:53:02I can tell you, I go in there to the damn room and I meet with the construction industry council...
4:53:08The only ones wearing the American flag in that room beside me were the labor leaders.
4:53:17I'm telling you, those guys are good.
4:53:18They're all for us.
4:53:19I don't give a damn.
4:53:21It's our national defense.
4:53:22They believe in this country.
4:53:23We love the country.
4:53:24I don't wear it for pictures because it doesn't come out great.
4:53:27I don't know what the hell it is.
4:53:32I like to stick it with it.
4:53:33I like to stick it with an election.
4:53:34You see the flag in the audience on the picture.
4:53:40Yeah, that's right.
4:53:41But anyway, we had some fun, you know, some fun.
4:53:47I tell you, Henry, I'm on that offer.
4:53:50I think we made a, it came off bad at the end, right?
4:53:53Oh, I didn't think it would get this reaction.
4:53:56We got a reaction, the country was good.
4:54:00One thing I find so interesting is not twice after months of screaming about secrecy in government,
4:54:07If you bring up something secretly, they love it.

NARA Description

On January 28, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, and Oliver F. ("Ollie") Atkins met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:48 pm to 5:03 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 659-020 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 659-20

Date: January 28, 1972
Time: 4:48 pm - 5:03 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger and Oliver F. (“Ollie”) Atkins.

     Kissinger’s meeting with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin

     Photograph for Life magazine
          -Poses
               -Expressions

     Kissinger’s meeting with Dobrynin
          -The President’s forthcoming trip to the Soviet Union

     Photographs for Life
          -Poses

Atkins left at an unknown time before 5:03 pm.

     Kissinger’s meeting with Dobrynin
          -Review

     -Middle East situation
     -Forthcoming meeting
     -Soviet attitude
     -Soviet Union trip
          -Expectations
          -Communique
                 -Negotiation
          -Strategic Arms Limitation Talks [SALT] agreement
          -Trade
          -Middle East
          -Vietnam negotiations
                 -Withdrawal for Prisoners of War [POWs]
                      -Ceasefire
                            -Compared to “standstill”
                                 -Kissinger’s reaction
          -Geneva Conference

Vietnam negotiations
     -North Vietnamese reaction to US terms
     -Reaction in US to terms
          -Joseph C. Kraft
          -James B. (“Scotty”) Reston
          -Press
          -Communist takeover of South Vietnam
          -Public support
                -Kissinger’s schedule
                     -POW wives’ visit
                -Benefits from the President’s peace proposal speech, January 25, 1972

Time magazine cover
     -Kissinger’s picture
     -Caption
     -William P. Rogers’s reaction
     -Kissinger’s concern
           -Reasons
                -Credit
                -Reelection

Vietnam negotiations
     -Reaction in US to terms
          -Kraft’s reaction

     -Washington Post
     -Editorial support
     -John A. Scali
     -Public support
     -Kraft
     -Robert Kleiman editorial
           -New York Times
           -Suggestions of terms
     -Moral collapse of leadership
           -The President’s meeting with construction industry leaders
                 -Flag pins
                 -Support for administration on national defense
           -Intellectuals
     -Public support
-Secrecy
     -Public reaction
           -Calls to Kissinger
                 -Inquiries about airplanes
     -Time research
           -Routes used
           -Lt. Gen.Vernon A. Walters’s role
     -France
           -Reaction
           -Role
                 -US gratitude to Georges J.R. Pompidou
                 -Gen. Charles A.J.M. Degaulle
                       -Resignation
                             -April 1969
                                  -Dwight D. Eisenhower’s funeral
                 -August 1969
                       -Azores meeting, December 1971
                             -Maurice Schumann’s aid offer
-Reaction in US to terms
     -Opposition view
           -Edmund S. Muskie
           -Democrats
     -Joseph W. Alsop’s comment
     -Los Angeles Times
           -Robert S. Elegant’s column
     -Overall reaction of papers
     -Reston

                -Muskie wavering
                -The President’s instruction to staff
                     -Negotiation prospects
                           -Need for unity
                                 -Consequence of disunity
           -POW wives’ visit
                -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
                -Explanation of negotiation terms
                     -POWs for troop withdrawal
                           -North Vietnam’s reaction
                     -Ceasefire
                     -North Vietnamese intransigence
                           -May, August 1971 proposals
                           -Overthrow of South Vietnam government
                                 -Imposition of communist government
           -Edward L. Morgan
                -Reaction to the President’s peace proposal speech
                     -Script
           -David Brinkley’s view
           -POW wives
                -The President’s regards

Kissinger left at 5:03 pm.

Also recorded on January 28, 1972

  • 659-017 4:46 PM · 59 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:46 pm and 4:48 pm.
  • 659-018 4:46 PM · 51 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:46 pm and 4:48 pm.
  • 659-019 4:46 PM · 50 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:46 pm and 4:48 pm.
  • 659-023 5:03 PM · 1 min — United States Secret Service agents and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 5:03 pm and 11:59 pm.
  • 019-148 5:05 PM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:05 pm and 5:23 pm.
  • 019-149 5:23 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods talked on the telephone from 5:23 pm to 5:25 pm.
  • 019-150 5:25 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:26 pm.
  • 019-151 5:26 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 5:26 pm to 5:30 pm.

All 37 conversations from January 28, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 659-020, January 28, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/659-020 (accessed October 12, 2026).