Conversation 660-017

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Good morning, Mr. President.

Good morning.

Well, I think they're going to want to make sure this is handled and finished.

So I think the best way to do this is to be standing here for a half a minute.

We'll bring it down a little.

Come on.

Here.

All right.

Here.

Okay, light is clear.

Start wrapping it up, gentlemen.

Good luck.

As you said, I think we're very fortunate that we've got two best men in the country.

They not only have good geographic distributions, Dr. Clark from Texas and Dr. Good from Minnesota, but Dr. Clark is a distinguished surgeon who in his early days was a male.

and went on from there to build one of the finest cancer centers in the world.

And Dr. Good is one of the country's most distinguished scientists, as well as a very highly respected clinician.

So I think both the scientific community and the

medical doctors interested in cancer will feel that they both have the very highest representation on this panel, the highest count.

I think that's very important in getting

the kind of cooperation, the kind of feedback from both the scientific and medical community.

You have to bounce it off.

I understand that.

But it's considered not necessarily a friendly rivalry among the troops.

I mean, I don't feel that the M.D.s are too virile.

And some of the M.D.s feel that the scientists are too much generous and so forth.

Both are probably right.

So it is when he comes next, right, that he

Who knows?

You're starting to make great discoveries.

Everybody knows.

And the point is, you've got to have both.

That's the way, at least from my side of mind.

You've got the picture exactly.

And I think that in Dr. Clark and Dr. Good, we have not only men who are eminently respected among their own colleagues in these divisions, but who are both

across these lines, which is very important too.

But we do need in this program strong support of both what we call the scientific community and the medical community, who are perhaps more interested in clinical applications than they are in the basic science.

And we're interested in having the best of both.

We're not going to have a rather large advisory group.

Just a lot of people who want to get in and want to see if this group can be represented.

Yes, it's very important.

I promise that to a number of people.

We have an 18-member board.

And Jim takes people from the community society and that sort of thing.

Yes, sir.

six scientists, and six laymen.

And Jim will be presenting for your approval fairly soon a roster of that vote.

I don't need it.

If you can imagine, a lot of names come in here, too.

We'll have a check made to see whether you folks believe that they are deserving.

Well, I would think, in addition to that, you might have to.

It might be useful to have an even larger group.

Titus are easy to get.

We will.

And I don't know, maybe a group of 100 or so people, if I can do this, so that we have a situation where everybody feels that he's working on this program.

Everybody who wants it.

I don't think it needs to be about that.

And it loses any sense of meaning to me.

But I think it could go as far as 100 for a forever.

And I think we can help make this be, not the scientists and the doctors so much, but it's the laymen and all the rest that want to get in it.

I actually just felt, well, we'll have a number of task forces that will be working in various areas.

Any way that you can, that you can find ways of giving them task forces.

If you want identification, recognition of this office, you set up one.

In other words, you would write a letter or a certificate or anything of that sort, and you would say this is the so-called president.

Because that is very helpful if people feel that they're not, that they're really working for whoever's in the office.

But you just use the office.

If I told you, you've got the total backing of this office,

the Secretary and the National Institute of Health.

But I think to use it, you'd just be very free to say, hey, because we are, everybody is aware of the fact that this was an initiative which we announced in the State of the Union a year ago.

We have a responsibility.

We're going after the money and the budget, and the rest will have no problem.

Of course, the Congress is cooperating.

People, of course, as always, will expect far too much, although we try to keep them from expecting too much.

But anyway, to the extent that people need identification

inspiration, goldie, or any of that sort.

And it has to come from here.

Let it come from here.

You see what I'm saying?

You feel free.

And when you're talking to people, you can say that we were talking to you.

You're talking to your medical people, your scientific people.

You can say we were in this office and that I specifically told you to talk about this.

And I did.

Whoever it is, I did.

to mention one interrelationship that might prove useful from the point of view of this group and the involvement of people and another of your initiatives and that is the

The work being done to develop a private foundation for the support and organization of a more cohesive national effort in health education.

Remember that the late president of Xerox, originally- Joe Wilson.

Joe Wilson, yes he is.

And he's been succeeded by Keith Larry of the United States Steel.

And they've been conducting hearings around the country on what is the relative effectiveness of the health education efforts being conducted now and what more might be done, what could be contributed by.

When did they get this to you?

We don't have a report yet.

You remember, I think they met with you originally in the summer.

unless it had been around June or so.

Yeah, yeah.

And they've been following up.

Yeah, probably another couple of months.

But I thought of it in connection with this question of how to involve people, and certainly at the point of applying what individuals can do to help protect themselves through the use of new knowledge and availability of tests.

There is an interface.

Right.

This was discussed considerably.

I remember the meeting was in the cabinet room.

Yes.

And Wilson was sitting on my left.

I recall.

Yes.

What I was going to say, you know, the great problem now in all government, just like in all businesses, you're aware, you're huge for the enterprise.

Is it?

to the tendency to just lay one layer of bureaucracy on top of another, to lay one organization on top of another,

Now, many times that perhaps is a way to get it done, but oftentimes we do not use a lot of talented, able, dedicated people that are in the old organization, that want to be used but just aren't being led.

And so if you people could just, if you would, I think if you could make, I think one of your first jobs should be to analyze who is working in this field, which I know you've done.

What are all the things?

I think we really need a catalog of what is being done, a clearinghouse, so to speak, in the field of cancer research.

I'm sure there's one available, but we need probably a better one.

What are we doing in the governmental areas?

What's being done in the universities?

What's being done in the scientific community?

What's being done outside?

What's being done, of course, by doctors and so forth and so on?

There are a lot of screwy ideas.

I didn't mention this, but I do want you to pull the international group in.

Elliot, what do you think?

You know how strong you are in your life.

just to digress a moment, is that one of the reasons I felt it was worth improving is that when they get that thing set up, it will allow every country in the world to have their own astronauts, because they can ride it, you know what I mean?

They don't have to be, it's, they can go out there and do their scientific research, you know, flipping around, whatever they want to do.

I mean, I'd be really glad to take a ride in it myself someday, but to just think of that, that's,

There's no other way.

You can't have the Japanese and the Germans and the rest.

You can't have that.

The relationship in one of these space vehicles at the present time is so close and so forth, it's very difficult to train them over the space shuttle.

They can do this.

But now, in this field, bring the international people in.

If you do that, just bring in, I mean, if they're good people in England or any place in the world, if you follow Spiel, for example,

that some, maybe travel abroad, bringing up a distinguished foreigner here, going abroad, would be useful to share the information with them and get them to share with you.

Who knows?

I think this is important, don't you think, sir?

I've been present on that line.

It would be of interest to you to know that John Conway helped restore an international Congress in Houston in 1970 with 6,000 people from 72 nations.

and we will meet with that group in march in australia from 72 nations

Would you like to have them join us in the effort?

By all means.

Why don't we try to see that we can get involved in something so that we can have a direct contact with the American Cancer Conquest Program.

It's one for the world, not just for America.

It's one where we welcome scientists and doctors to the world.

And that's another thing that we all did, in terms of our own programs.

You know, get all of our, uh, uh, uh, and all that sort of thing.

How that went in.

We knew how it ended there.

I know that China, and later the Russians, particularly the China support, we already have some contact with the Russians.

But one of the things that we doubt, we are gonna try to make a breakthrough, which is on medical.

And this is, is that very good?

ways of wishing things that we do i think that's extremely important well you know communicated by us was about three to four years ago it was a chinese american chinese nobel prize winner and they had a great gift in this field in fact their scientific achievement was the spot was pretty far advanced when the europeans were still eating each other

With respect to recent communications with the Soviets on the expanded interchange in .

We have in mind that you might want to announce a new agreement.

I tell you what you might do is to take a look also where it's a much more tenuous relation because we will not have diplomatic relations in the technical sense of the Chinese before Africa.

But if there is something we could do with the Chinese, I doubt the Chinese have any communication with other countries in these things.

If there is an area where, you know, they're going to send that table tennis they like to do.

I'd like to have them come and see our way of doing things.

Dr. Paul Dudley White came back, extremely interested in, and he and Harry, who is a leading anesthesiologist, are exceedingly interested in the scientific base for the use of acupuncture for anesthetic purposes.

And there's a lot of opportunity, and a great deal of it is for the United States.

And there are, I recently sent, I think, Ken a memorandum, or somebody over here, maybe it wasn't you, Ken, and Henry Kissinger, summarizing what we, through our people, think are the likeliest areas of medical interchange with the Chinese.

You followed up yesterday that, you know, checking around through Haiti or...

All right.

Very good.

Well, the legislation that you're responsible for gives us the opportunity to see that it does not stop there.

The thing is, I think now the rank of our members to meet today is that I would like to view all three of you as your public statements.

We consider this not just an American program.

We consider it a program for all men in the world.

This is a world program.

We want to, first, the benefits, whatever they are, of our research will be given to the world.

And second, we will love the participation of distinguished scientists and doctors from all over the world, whatever their philosophy, because everybody wants to save lives.

Just hit that one.

And you can go back to anything.

to be able to say, this is the world.

What do you think, Elliot?

I said, oh, that's true.

And first of all, I believe in physical health.

And so the second point, all of you and your colleagues will.

And it gives them an opportunity to come out.

And who knows?

There could be a very similar thing.

You know, I know many, many doctors.

And even more, there are various who go out there my age.

They want to go out there.

But they're right.

Anyway.

So we're going to explain some interesting things, but I'm actually pretty sure, I'm sure the current Fed branch, the Russians, I don't know, the Chinese, we know, we've got to be, I mean, who knows who has the brains.

So nobody has a preeminent opinion, right?

As I said earlier, talking about the Chinese and Russians, from the standpoint of foreign policy, always throw in a word for them.

countries where you're not going to get really much contribution, but Latin America, they're very sensitive to thought, not paying attention, they're fine people, and they just don't.

Africa and, of course, South Asia, India, and all those countries, they do, and it's a whole world we're interested in, not just in more development.

That's a very hard question.

particularly in virology and some excellent contributions.

We've had 65 of them at our place in training at our professors in the medical schools in Japan.

And they really have contributed some great, excellent, fundamental work in this field.

Now, in regard to our government support, of course,

On the financial side, you know, what to do, yes.

I hope it's not given, but ask what you need and not more, you know what I mean?

I understand.

Because I think, not that we should, we'll spend everything that we need, but if you just pour it in, it will be wasteful and not effective.

Second point is that...

In terms of moral support from us, you naturally have us all.

You've got Elliot, the secretary.

You've got all the public health service people.

And other members of the cabinet.

And whatever support you want from me in a personal sense, you've got that.

Well, Mr. President, we wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for

the initiative you took and the support you've given us.

And you've made that support so clear when you talked to me before and today that if we can't get the job done with that,

But on the other hand, as a result of what we've done,

We have come this far.

I realize that's about what you're saying.

That is what it is.

I mean, as I understand, you prevented, by early examination, your education.

I understand also that there are various kinds of devices, I mean, chemical and other devices, drugs, which can be effective at certain stages.

There's, of course, surgery and so on down the line.

But any of that, the thing that people have to realize is that when they hear the word cancer, it does not mean death instantly.

It means something.

It means a hope, a chance, not for a cure maybe, but at least for an extended life.

So life is what you've got to believe in.

I mean, you keep people alive for a while, so you're going

The other thing is, I think your report at the end of the year

This is the progress we have made.

Not how much money you've spent, not how many doctors you've met, not how many scientists, but the result of this we've done is that.

The second thing I think is that I'd like you to keep in mind is that this is an annual thing.

If this works, I mean if this kind of organization works, it is the kind of organization that we could apply to three or four other so-called major dread diseases.

I don't want to go down that path, because otherwise you're going to have a hundred different organizations like this, and you can't put that much emphasis on it.

But maybe there are three or four others.

Who knows?

If it works.

And maybe it's a different format.

In other words, to the extent that you can develop the type of organization that is constructive, that builds on the existing body of knowledge, that works with the government,

find that might provide a method we could use in certain other areas, a limited number, you understand, where we might want to make a similar effort.

We want to cross that bridge yet.

Because there were many, you know, who thought that we shouldn't have even done this.

Because they said, look, everything can be done.

And if you single one out, then it means there's going to be enough attention to the others and so forth.

My feeling was, let's single out one that everybody understands, everybody excited about it, and see what we can do with a massive effort.

And then we'll take another one.

You see, you fellows have got an opportunity here.

You're sort of the first, and your organization, the way you can set it up, how you would list people, clearly a part of the results, can be a model for other things to follow.

So I'd like for you to think in those terms if you were certain.

Well, Mr. President, this is our number one priority, and I really like it.

We're glad to be here.

Let me see.

I've got to get a piece of you here.

You're a pig.

You're coming out here.

You're a couple.

Good.

That's great.

That's all good.

I'm glad to be here.

I'm very interested.

That's all.

Thank you very much.