{"conversationCode":"664-005","tapeNumber":664,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-664-005","startDateTime":"1972-02-02T14:14:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-02-02T14:15:00.000Z","startDate":"2-Feb-1972","startTime":"9:14 AM","endDate":"2-Feb-1972","endTime":"9:15 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Downing, Thomas N.;","description":"On February 2, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Thomas N. Downing met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:14 am to 9:15 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 664-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 664-5\n\nDate: February 2, 1972\nTime: 9:14 am - 9:15 am\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President talked with Thomas N. Downing.\n\n[See Conversation No. 20-19]","filename":["664a.mp3","664b.mp3"],"tapeStart":"00:19:11","tapeEnd":"00:19:57","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Downing, Thomas N."],"prevCode":"664-004","nextCode":"664-006","tapeTranscriptFile":"664a.mp3,664b.mp3","transcript":[{"start":1151.88,"end":1154.58,"text":"That would be the major use of having Rogers out front."},{"start":1154.66,"end":1160.91,"text":"Because unfortunately the Foreign Service is more loyal to the Secretary than to the President."},{"start":1163.13,"end":1165.27,"text":"Yeah, there is no reason for them."},{"start":1165.29,"end":1171.6,"text":"There's not a problem."},{"start":1173.08,"end":1176.18,"text":"No reason, but we should expect it, I guess."},{"start":1176.2,"end":1189.65,"text":"I think if we can get a plan, but the other possibility is that now Muskie, who obviously rushed into this thing, might get confused and not know exactly how to deal with it, too, which would be kind of interesting."},{"start":1191.05,"end":1199.88,"text":"Well, I think also, let me say, well, it's a good test for us as to whether or not whenever we've got a tough one, it'll stand up."}],"transcriptBoundary":{"start":1150.875,"end":1199.875,"startMethod":"silence","endMethod":"silence"},"transcriptConfidence":"high","transcriptSource":"bigtape","aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Representative Thomas N. Downing discussed the loyalty of the Foreign Service and its implications for Secretary of State William Rogers's position. The conversation touched upon political maneuvering regarding Senator Edmund Muskie’s potential vulnerability on a specific, undisclosed issue. Nixon used the moment to frame the situation as a critical test of his administration's ability to withstand political pressure.","topics":["Foreign Service","William Rogers","Edmund Muskie","Political strategy","Executive-bureaucratic relations"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-07T02:12:34.809Z"},"topicSlugs":["foreign-service","william-rogers","edmund-muskie","political-strategy","executive-bureaucratic-relations"],"audioDurationSec":46,"audioFiles":[{"file":"664a.mp3","bytes":177528371,"durationSec":7396.96,"bitrate":192001,"missing":false},{"file":"664b.mp3","bytes":43392312,"durationSec":1807.95,"bitrate":192006,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":true,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:54.979Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/664a.mp3","https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/664b.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/664-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/664/conversation-664-005","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}