Nixon & Ziegler on H. R. Haldeman and Vietnam War

3:32:55No, that's enough.
3:33:01That's enough.
3:34:14Beautiful, yes.
3:34:15It ought to be long.
3:34:16Well, I...
3:34:16It's pretty hard.
3:34:17Well, yes, there were three ways to do it.
3:34:20Full sound, full heart, affiliations.
3:34:22I took a combination of really middle line and tried to fuzz it.
3:34:31Make it very clear that you favored honest criticism and so forth.
3:34:36And that Bob was speaking for himself.
3:34:38And I stayed away from giving him nothing.
3:34:40A hot quote that could help escalate or elevate the story.
3:34:44And I kept moving away to other subjects.
3:34:47I went to Swantlea.
3:34:48And then the rest of the thing, when I tried to diverge to that, I said what Swantlea said over the weekend and so forth.
3:34:53Acknowledges everything that the president said and so forth.
3:34:56There were some hard-hitting reporters who just shook their head yes, which doesn't happen often.
3:35:02But I'm not sure how we're going to run this story.
3:35:05I think they'll probably say the White House said these were his personal views, and we should say that the president always brings about his criticism, and then go on to recap it, which is probably all right, because I didn't think we wanted to totally shoot down that point of view that is out there.
3:35:20You see what I mean?
3:35:22Some people think, in other words, they are indicating... That's right.
3:35:25That's right.
3:35:27So, we didn't want...
3:35:27In other words, walking a fine line, I didn't want to...
3:35:37Well, he didn't.
3:35:38He drives his leg up the whole wall.
3:36:07When someone uses that particular phraseology, that's what drives them to all of us.
3:36:12They consciously get embedded in the animal as they go back to the world.
3:36:17But I kept referring back to the point that, obviously, in the context of what Bob was saying, he was not suggesting that any of the critics wanted to see the enemy succeed, which we know they probably do.
3:36:31I said, what he was saying is that the possibility of the president's proposal
3:36:37The possibility of the man who has responsibility to deal with the situation and to bring our involvement in the war in South Vietnam to an end, has less chance to succeed if there's not unity in the country.
3:36:50Hit that thing, you see.
3:36:52And then went to the point that those who were being critical before and were unaware of the present sector over the last 30 months, obviously did not know that they would be critical of something that regarded being done.
3:37:03But now,
3:37:05Having known the efforts the president has put forth, aware that he has gone the extra mile, then they know that they are contributing to this unity.
3:37:16So I don't know if they picked that up because they were more anxious to go and bob and repeat it in the press, because outside that would be a big point for them.
3:37:30I think that's a good point.
3:37:33I think that's a good point.
3:37:35that affect him or the administration if you would, but I don't think it's a jerk.
3:37:39But on the other hand, you're doing this to your point of view.
3:37:45That's right.
3:37:48I said, well, you're supposed to be a spokesman for the president anyway.
3:37:55And they came back and said, well, you're supposed to be a spokesman.
3:38:00What's the president's deal?
3:38:01And I said, well, the president has always said he's for honest criticism, honest criticism.
3:38:12And he realizes there will be debate on issues, and then I went to the unity thing again.
3:38:16They said, well, do you think that Muskie's criticism was honest?
3:38:20I said, without associating what I said or what the Secretary said about Senator Muskie in relation to what Mr. Holloman said, I said the very reason we commented on Senator Muskie's statement was that it was not factual.
3:38:38It was incorrect.
3:38:39That's why we
3:38:41raised the question about... And if you weren't, you made the point that we're not questioning his motives.
3:38:46Right.
3:38:46See, I went to the motive thing.
3:38:48I said, what we're talking about here is motives.
3:38:49They're not motives, but effect.
3:38:51Well, they accepted that.
3:38:54Some of them did, but others went back to you and said, well, as I read this, you're not talking about motives.
3:38:58You're talking about conscientious, you know, aching and abandoned vanities.
3:39:02So I didn't get through to all of them.
3:39:04Well, that's true.
3:39:05The word conscious refers to motives.
3:39:09And that's what they said.
3:39:10That's what
3:39:14But basically I tried to fuzz it, to get a story that would say it was expressed from a personal point of view.
3:39:20You know, the thing is that we really get into these, I don't know why we can do these goddamn things.
3:39:26You know, if it's Mark Walters and others, I mean, it's sort of a pain in the ass.
3:39:34Well, I think they can be effective, Mr. President.
3:39:36I mean, quite a lot of centers.
3:39:37I'm not sure if it's good for Bob and our organization.
3:39:48Well, how was the rest of the interview?
3:39:58Well, it's three days.
3:39:59He said they split it up.
3:40:02No, no, he didn't warn them.
3:40:04They split it up for three days.
3:40:05But the rest of it's fine.
3:40:07There's no problem.
3:40:14Why did you decide to do that today?
3:40:17No, it was quite a while ago.
3:40:20And I've also made the other point that he didn't, he filmed this on the 28th, Senator Muskie made his comments on February the 2nd.
3:40:29So, tried to find something there.
3:40:34So Muskie wouldn't have, you know... Yeah, we hear people on the Muskie one, because...
3:40:40I don't mean the points being made and all that rock being in the rest, but I don't want the White House fighting the Muskie one.
3:40:46Try to do that.
3:40:47It was low key, and that worked, I think, on a low key basis.
3:40:52But we don't want to do that often.
3:40:56See, my argument there is, we've got something about that.
3:40:58Look, any time...
3:40:59I think Rogers was right.
3:41:00Don't worry about the political critics here.
3:41:03Rogers was right in drawing the sword on one, because they'll think twice when they do it again.
3:41:10And we were right, I think, Mr. President, in calling attention to where Muskie was wrong.
3:41:17In other words, my remarks, as we discussed, were not aimed at Muskie as, you know, we talked about unity, but we said he was wrong in terms of his...
3:41:26That's what you hit there, and that's what we hit.
3:41:47Now, if you're absurdi, and I want to work this out with Pat about the consciously aiding and abetting and so forth, I think he could pretty well move away from it by saying that the figure's already covered up, but he might do as always done, and there should be honest criticism.
3:42:03I'm doing everything I can in terms of seeking a negotiated settlement and move into the positive side of it.
3:42:13I don't know if Brian thought it out totally well, but I'm here.
3:42:19Yeah, well, they'll ask.
3:42:24I don't see what the flight is, but anything else flying today is good.
3:42:41No, it's interesting that they're not.
3:42:43Well, of course, the campaign, the signing of the campaign bill will play some.
3:42:53Signing the foreign aid bill will play some.
3:42:56Your schedule today was playing earlier today quite heavily.
3:43:02The speech tonight, unfortunately, is too late for any television, but some warm favors.
3:43:11The press list will play.
3:43:17But nothing that will top this?
3:43:21No, but it may.
3:43:22I don't know if this will play as the overriding lead story, but I think it will be a very definite part of the day next.
3:43:34Well, the point is that all the Democrats will jump on it.
3:43:38He just said he felt that any senator should have the right to express himself, and he's going to submit to be free of a speech in support of the Senate.
3:43:51Bob wasn't really saying that there shouldn't be.
3:43:53Scott came out with a good comment.
3:43:55Occasionally he does.
3:43:55He said, well, listen, he said the Democrats are using hard language about the President's plan.
3:44:01They should expect hard language coming back at them, which is all right.
3:44:06He's on the wire with that.
3:44:09Cranks and some critical, you know, of the, of the, of the industry.
3:44:25But when you, you still have to think, you get, when you, I always think of the guy riding over from work in the car.
3:44:32who hears these lies, who hears the lie, you know, where these people are being critical of the president, the president's proposal to consciously aid the enemy.
3:44:40I can't help but think that when you get out of here, when you get out of all of this philosophical debate and discussion that occurs, that he's going to drive along and say that it's right.
3:44:51You know, his reaction...
3:44:54Unless he's on the side of the cradle.
3:44:57Unless he's on the side of the cradle.
3:44:58I think you're right.
3:45:01In other words, it won't turn those people who support the President's plan against us, but it may solidify their support for you, and it may support a lot of cases that make you think a little bit more.
3:45:15But it's interesting, in the briefings, the press are not coming.
3:45:18I thought they would make a real run this morning at the, what we were talking about in here with Henry, about the Tuan Tui, saying that there were
3:45:28It's too bad.
3:45:30It's true.
3:45:30They've always insisted on it.
3:46:00I talked to Bob.
3:46:02He's the last man in the world who concerns himself with this.
3:46:06As Bob told me, he said, look, whatever our strategy is, if we want to back off it, it's fine.
3:46:11If we don't, fine.
3:46:12And he's right.
3:46:14It has no effect on Bob or his association with your administration.
3:46:18Because, as I've spoken to these...
3:46:25Do they play it on as senators who criticize at the point?
3:46:30No, no, no.
3:46:31Why was it that Manfield came back and said senators should have a right to criticize?
3:46:35Well, because that's the way they're trying to shift it.
3:46:38Now, I kept it away from that at the briefing, by making the point that he was talking about critics overall, and moved it away from the criticism.
3:46:48But the attack from the enemy, or the attack from our enemy, would be...
3:46:52Aha, you're saying senators don't have the right to express themselves, you see, and that's why Mansfield, I'm sure, took that tack, so they're carrying his quote on that.
3:47:02But see, Bob did not refer specifically to senators.
3:47:04He was talking about critics overall.
3:47:15But a total, you know, if we would have gone out this morning and said, no, that's not the president's point of view, and no, he wasn't speaking for the president, and no, he doesn't support it, they would have run that heavily.
3:47:27And that, I think, would have diluted everything that the secretary has done and intended to give ammunition to the critics by saying, say, the president of the United States doesn't agree with anything that people are saying.
3:47:43Because he isn't serious about it.
3:47:46And that's all.
3:47:47In fact, what you said was that, rather than a separate person to drive them, every critic must consider the effectiveness of this criticism.
3:48:08I still think we ought to do the press conference.
3:48:11Absolutely.
3:48:11And what it ought to do much is...
3:48:14I think we should do it Thursday, and I think we should do it on the China comments as we've discussed.
3:48:31No, yes.
3:48:32You have the schedule.
3:48:33You can talk about stopping in Hawaii.
3:48:35You can talk about your briefing in Hawaii.
3:48:37I think you can give a general overview.
3:48:41The other thing that they'd love to hear too would be your discussion with Mrs. Nixon going.
3:48:47And a little discussion about Mrs. Nixon joining with you and how she's traveled before and how she's been traveling with you on your other foreign trips.
3:48:59That type of thing would be, they'd love that.
3:49:01They'd move separate stores.
3:49:08I think this is one that I'm not going to prepare him a lot for.
3:49:19I'm just going to go ahead and spend a couple of hours looking over the questions and then write it.
3:49:26Once you get through China, my view is that they're going to ask you about the press conference situation, which is boiling up and stirring up a little bit.
3:49:36I understand that, but they will still ask you about the numbers of press conferences.
3:49:42It's something that I don't worry about, because I don't think anyone cares about it except the press.
3:49:49We'll have more.
3:49:50We'll let you know.
3:49:52We'll announce it to you.
3:49:54Just like that.
3:49:55Right, they needed you about that.
3:49:56They needed you quite a bit.
3:49:58How quickly did they look?
3:49:59Just once a month?
3:50:01Very quickly, and I just said... Well, this will be a...
3:50:05I'll give him a good clear time.
3:50:08That's pretty good, isn't it?
3:50:09Yes, sir.
3:50:10But they will ask you that.
3:50:12That can be handled.
3:50:12If this other...
3:50:13If the anomaly builds, I think he can...
3:50:18Without getting involved in having to say, well, I feel her kind, I think you just take the positive that you've done on honest criticism, and the staff people are always there speaking of you in support of the president.
3:50:32Your view is that there's going to be criticism.
3:50:35Well, I think the point is that...
3:50:45Right.
3:50:48The important thing is we are doing everything we can, and I think that in order for this to succeed, the other side has to...
3:50:59I think I can just say, look, there's honest criticism and so forth and so on, and I'm not going to do any movies.
3:51:10As far as criticism is concerned, that will be considered a repudiation.
3:51:14But it's, I think, coming at this point, that that will be no problem.
3:51:18No, really, that's right.
3:51:18I'm not going to repudiate what you just said as far as criticism is concerned.
3:51:22Because I'm not going to get into the muskies and the wreckings of everybody.
3:51:26I'll say I'm not going to discuss it, which is all I'm going to say, is that we've united, to the extent that we can unite, and I'm pleased to propose that the chance for negotiation will be
3:51:35But you have the responsibility to deal with this, and you're carrying out that responsibility in the way you feel will solve the problem.
3:51:51I think it's important
3:52:02to make over and over and over, and I think that would be a pretty good hot quote line for you to say, I have the responsibility to end this, I'm extending every effort to solve the problem, we're taking every step to solve the problem, and any support that I can have in these efforts is welcome, I think it's important in order to solve it.
3:52:23Thank you.
3:52:28You could be more right about the press conference question, because basically they want to be on television.
3:52:34Most people would say we're on television too damn much anyway.
3:52:38And also, they're the ones that want these things in the office, aren't they?
3:52:43They prefer it.
3:52:44Is that true?
3:52:45The writing press?
3:52:46Oh, it's the television.
3:52:55You gave your list to us.
3:52:56Of course they...
3:52:57They'll do it at four.
3:52:59I'm in the process of calling the guys who aren't going now.
3:53:02Telling them they're not going.
3:53:03They get pierced in their eyes, the whole thing.
3:53:07Yeah, like Nick Nash and James?
3:53:10Well, Cliff Evans.
3:53:11Cliff who?
3:53:11Cliff Evans of RKO and Alan Lito.
3:53:15I also like to point that
3:53:38American journalism should be damn pleased about the fact that they're getting overrated.
3:53:43Because if you take your personal self-interest out of it, look at journalism as a body in this country, it's getting a hell of a break.
3:53:50With all segments represented, all major news organizations, or many major news organizations being represented, but the guy who's totally just going, you know, doesn't want to marshal.
3:54:09He kills them.
3:54:10Everybody can't go.
3:54:11That's the problem.
3:54:12They all do that.
3:54:15Now, Bill Buckley is flying back to...
3:54:18He's in London now.
3:54:19I'm sure he'll fly himself back here.
3:54:21We're not to use it as a jet.
3:54:22He's so happy.
3:54:23He's really riding on it.
3:54:23And breathing in water would be helpful with those guys.
3:54:29I mean, that's just...
3:54:35He runs this side of the missile.
3:54:38Black here.
3:54:38And bombs.
3:54:49You have a shirt on?
3:54:52I...
3:54:52I...
3:54:53I got to stay here a little bit.
3:54:58Henry is here, Tonya.
3:55:02It blew the Henderson story wide open.
3:55:07It blew the Henderson story wide open.
3:55:12Are you talking about the Henderson paper?
3:55:20Sure.
3:55:27That's what did it.
3:55:29That's what brought the damn thing on.
3:55:31I would be over in China.
3:55:33It may very well have been the thing that got the kit, whoever did it.
3:55:39Well, it could have been a motivation factor, I don't know, but Al Hayden and I were in China when that came over.
3:55:47The official in the Air Force once said, and we both looked at one another and said, there it goes, and it sure did go.
3:55:55Henry, for instance, is more concerned about the media, at least I think he is.
3:56:13about the comments that Bob made than I am.
3:56:18I'm not terribly concerned about it if it's mushed up and diffused now, because I still think there was some advantage of getting this thought out there a little bit.
3:56:31This may have done it.
3:56:33The fact that...
3:56:33But I think we've taken some advantage of finding out that our democratic friends are getting dissed too god damn as well.
3:56:40And they are.
3:56:41Let's face it, they're a common head of an unconscionable person.
3:56:46Yes.
3:56:47And Bob said what I hope a lot of people believe.
3:56:51Now the only point is that we can't be in a position where we're conscious.
3:56:59I can't.
3:56:59Certainly you can't be.
3:57:01I will not do that.
3:57:04You can't.
3:57:08I'm not going to appeal to any more Asian critics.
3:57:09I mentioned that.
3:57:09If I say that, I suppose they would say, well, he repudiated Mr. Alderman.
3:57:13I should say, well, he was expressing his own views.
3:57:17That's a repudiation.
3:57:17You can't do that.
3:57:26I think that's the way I did it this morning.
3:57:37I said he did not... His intent was not to suggest that the critics wanted the enemy to succeed.
3:57:46He was making the point that the effect would lead to...
3:57:52lessen the ability, decrease the ability of your program to... Then they revert to me.
3:57:59That's why I'm just wondering if in the press conference you say, well, I've always thought there should be honest criticism, there should be.
3:58:07I'm not going to discuss the motives of anyone else.
3:58:10And Bob has made it clear he's expressed his own personal view
3:58:22But then they may say, well, do you agree?
3:58:24And I think what you could do then is just look at the guy who asked you very closely and say, I've just told you what my view is, and I don't think anyone would follow up on it.
3:58:34Then they would have to write that if they want to get bogged down in that, they would say, the president did not support Haldeman's view, but he made it clear he was expressing his own personal point of view on Haldeman's view.
3:58:57I don't think they'll pressure us.
3:58:58I don't think they'll pressure us.
3:59:01They won't pressure us.
3:59:27I mean, Kennedy says you're prolonging the war so as to end it during the election.
3:59:32Not one of those sons of bitches.
3:59:33You're exactly right.
3:59:34Not one of them.
3:59:35Or a president.
3:59:37Huh?
3:59:37Or a president.
3:59:39But they said no, man.
3:59:39And never one of them will come to your defense.
3:59:50Very interesting.
3:59:51It's been 30 minutes and I've followed the president of Argentina.
3:59:54You're not even a son.
3:59:54Yes, and I gave you a little background.
4:00:33I haven't seen muskie.
4:00:36Can it be your?
4:00:37You were clear that it did not apply to muskie.
4:00:39Yes, sir.
4:00:40Yes, I made the point.
4:00:44Which you should.
4:00:45They asked me, I said, honest criticism.
4:00:47And they asked me about muskie.
4:00:48And I said, well, you said, do you consider muskie's criticism honest?
4:00:52I said, that's why I use the word honest.
4:00:54I said, now, without associating what I'm about to say with any of the questions or any of the subjects we've been talking about up to this point, which was Haldeman,
4:01:02First of all, I'd like to make it clear that Bob taped this thing on the 28th.
4:01:05That was before February 2nd, remarks of Senator Musk.
4:01:09And the reason that we addressed it here, the reason the Secretary of State addressed it, was that he was wrong in what he said, in terms of detail.
4:01:18He was incorrect in his sign.
4:01:19All right.
4:01:24All right.
4:01:25Thank you, sir.
4:01:26I have a dollar on me.
4:01:29Close, sir.
4:01:30How long until I get out?
4:01:42To the stairs.
4:01:43Yes, I like that.
4:01:46He's a...
4:01:46He can always see the gold.
4:01:51The other guy's eye.
4:01:53Right.
4:01:53I don't know.
4:01:57I don't know where he's at.
4:02:25It's too heavy for them.
4:02:26They don't... Maybe through the weekend we may get a few things.
4:02:33World Affairs is in a section in the magazines.
4:02:35Too heavy for them.
4:02:37All those things are not like China.
4:02:40We live in that kind of a world.
4:02:43It's too bad because they probably had to have a corporate report.
4:02:53A long, long time ago,
4:02:56You have issued a very extensive statement on busing, a very extensive statement on the whole school.
4:03:09I constantly have to remind these guys to go back if they want to know your view, to go back and read it.
4:03:13They say, well, summarize.
4:03:14I say, I'm not going to attempt to summarize something that's in paper, 32 pages expressing the president's view.
4:03:20If you want to
4:03:22Find out.
4:03:22Go read it.
4:03:23They want you to do it.
4:03:28But the more thoughtful and more intent the material is...

Nixon & Ziegler on H. R. Haldeman and Vietnam War

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Also recorded on February 7, 1972

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