Conversation 666-007

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No, that's enough.

That's enough.

Beautiful, yes.

It ought to be long.

Well, I...

It's pretty hard.

Well, yes, there were three ways to do it.

Full sound, full heart, affiliations.

I took a combination of really middle line and tried to fuzz it.

Make it very clear that you favored honest criticism and so forth.

And that Bob was speaking for himself.

And I stayed away from giving him nothing.

A hot quote that could help escalate or elevate the story.

And I kept moving away to other subjects.

I went to Swantlea.

And then the rest of the thing, when I tried to diverge to that, I said what Swantlea said over the weekend and so forth.

Acknowledges everything that the president said and so forth.

There were some hard-hitting reporters who just shook their head yes, which doesn't happen often.

But I'm not sure how we're going to run this story.

I think they'll probably say the White House said these were his personal views, and we should say that the president always brings about his criticism, and then go on to recap it, which is probably all right, because I didn't think we wanted to totally shoot down that point of view that is out there.

You see what I mean?

Some people think, in other words, they are indicating... That's right.

That's right.

So, we didn't want...

In other words, walking a fine line, I didn't want to...

Well, he didn't.

He drives his leg up the whole wall.

When someone uses that particular phraseology, that's what drives them to all of us.

They consciously get embedded in the animal as they go back to the world.

But I kept referring back to the point that, obviously, in the context of what Bob was saying, he was not suggesting that any of the critics wanted to see the enemy succeed, which we know they probably do.

I said, what he was saying is that the possibility of the president's proposal

The possibility of the man who has responsibility to deal with the situation and to bring our involvement in the war in South Vietnam to an end, has less chance to succeed if there's not unity in the country.

Hit that thing, you see.

And then went to the point that those who were being critical before and were unaware of the present sector over the last 30 months, obviously did not know that they would be critical of something that regarded being done.

But now,

Having known the efforts the president has put forth, aware that he has gone the extra mile, then they know that they are contributing to this unity.

So I don't know if they picked that up because they were more anxious to go and bob and repeat it in the press, because outside that would be a big point for them.

I think that's a good point.

that affect him or the administration if you would, but I don't think it's a jerk.

But on the other hand, you're doing this to your point of view.

That's right.

I said, well, you're supposed to be a spokesman for the president anyway.

And they came back and said, well, you're supposed to be a spokesman.

What's the president's deal?

And I said, well, the president has always said he's for honest criticism, honest criticism.

And he realizes there will be debate on issues, and then I went to the unity thing again.

They said, well, do you think that Muskie's criticism was honest?

I said, without associating what I said or what the Secretary said about Senator Muskie in relation to what Mr. Holloman said, I said the very reason we commented on Senator Muskie's statement was that it was not factual.

It was incorrect.

That's why we

raised the question about... And if you weren't, you made the point that we're not questioning his motives.

Right.

See, I went to the motive thing.

I said, what we're talking about here is motives.

They're not motives, but effect.

Well, they accepted that.

Some of them did, but others went back to you and said, well, as I read this, you're not talking about motives.

You're talking about conscientious, you know, aching and abandoned vanities.

So I didn't get through to all of them.

Well, that's true.

The word conscious refers to motives.

And that's what they said.

That's what

But basically I tried to fuzz it, to get a story that would say it was expressed from a personal point of view.

You know, the thing is that we really get into these, I don't know why we can do these goddamn things.

You know, if it's Mark Walters and others, I mean, it's sort of a pain in the ass.

Well, I think they can be effective, Mr. President.

I mean, quite a lot of centers.

I'm not sure if it's good for Bob and our organization.

Well, how was the rest of the interview?

Well, it's three days.

He said they split it up.

No, no, he didn't warn them.

They split it up for three days.

But the rest of it's fine.

There's no problem.

Why did you decide to do that today?

No, it was quite a while ago.

And I've also made the other point that he didn't, he filmed this on the 28th, Senator Muskie made his comments on February the 2nd.

So, tried to find something there.

So Muskie wouldn't have, you know... Yeah, we hear people on the Muskie one, because...

I don't mean the points being made and all that rock being in the rest, but I don't want the White House fighting the Muskie one.

Try to do that.

It was low key, and that worked, I think, on a low key basis.

But we don't want to do that often.

See, my argument there is, we've got something about that.

Look, any time...

I think Rogers was right.

Don't worry about the political critics here.

Rogers was right in drawing the sword on one, because they'll think twice when they do it again.

And we were right, I think, Mr. President, in calling attention to where Muskie was wrong.

In other words, my remarks, as we discussed, were not aimed at Muskie as, you know, we talked about unity, but we said he was wrong in terms of his...

That's what you hit there, and that's what we hit.

Now, if you're absurdi, and I want to work this out with Pat about the consciously aiding and abetting and so forth, I think he could pretty well move away from it by saying that the figure's already covered up, but he might do as always done, and there should be honest criticism.

I'm doing everything I can in terms of seeking a negotiated settlement and move into the positive side of it.

I don't know if Brian thought it out totally well, but I'm here.

Yeah, well, they'll ask.

I don't see what the flight is, but anything else flying today is good.

No, it's interesting that they're not.

Well, of course, the campaign, the signing of the campaign bill will play some.

Signing the foreign aid bill will play some.

Your schedule today was playing earlier today quite heavily.

The speech tonight, unfortunately, is too late for any television, but some warm favors.

The press list will play.

But nothing that will top this?

No, but it may.

I don't know if this will play as the overriding lead story, but I think it will be a very definite part of the day next.

Well, the point is that all the Democrats will jump on it.

He just said he felt that any senator should have the right to express himself, and he's going to submit to be free of a speech in support of the Senate.

Bob wasn't really saying that there shouldn't be.

Scott came out with a good comment.

Occasionally he does.

He said, well, listen, he said the Democrats are using hard language about the President's plan.

They should expect hard language coming back at them, which is all right.

He's on the wire with that.

Cranks and some critical, you know, of the, of the, of the industry.

But when you, you still have to think, you get, when you, I always think of the guy riding over from work in the car.

who hears these lies, who hears the lie, you know, where these people are being critical of the president, the president's proposal to consciously aid the enemy.

I can't help but think that when you get out of here, when you get out of all of this philosophical debate and discussion that occurs, that he's going to drive along and say that it's right.

You know, his reaction...

Unless he's on the side of the cradle.

I think you're right.

In other words, it won't turn those people who support the President's plan against us, but it may solidify their support for you, and it may support a lot of cases that make you think a little bit more.

But it's interesting, in the briefings, the press are not coming.

I thought they would make a real run this morning at the, what we were talking about in here with Henry, about the Tuan Tui, saying that there were

It's too bad.

It's true.

They've always insisted on it.

I talked to Bob.

He's the last man in the world who concerns himself with this.

As Bob told me, he said, look, whatever our strategy is, if we want to back off it, it's fine.

If we don't, fine.

And he's right.

It has no effect on Bob or his association with your administration.

Because, as I've spoken to these...

Do they play it on as senators who criticize at the point?

No, no, no.

Why was it that Manfield came back and said senators should have a right to criticize?

Well, because that's the way they're trying to shift it.

Now, I kept it away from that at the briefing, by making the point that he was talking about critics overall, and moved it away from the criticism.

But the attack from the enemy, or the attack from our enemy, would be...

Aha, you're saying senators don't have the right to express themselves, you see, and that's why Mansfield, I'm sure, took that tack, so they're carrying his quote on that.

But see, Bob did not refer specifically to senators.

He was talking about critics overall.

But a total, you know, if we would have gone out this morning and said, no, that's not the president's point of view, and no, he wasn't speaking for the president, and no, he doesn't support it, they would have run that heavily.

And that, I think, would have diluted everything that the secretary has done and intended to give ammunition to the critics by saying, say, the president of the United States doesn't agree with anything that people are saying.

Because he isn't serious about it.

And that's all.

In fact, what you said was that, rather than a separate person to drive them, every critic must consider the effectiveness of this criticism.

I still think we ought to do the press conference.

Absolutely.

And what it ought to do much is...

I think we should do it Thursday, and I think we should do it on the China comments as we've discussed.

No, yes.

You have the schedule.

You can talk about stopping in Hawaii.

You can talk about your briefing in Hawaii.

I think you can give a general overview.

The other thing that they'd love to hear too would be your discussion with Mrs. Nixon going.

And a little discussion about Mrs. Nixon joining with you and how she's traveled before and how she's been traveling with you on your other foreign trips.

That type of thing would be, they'd love that.

They'd move separate stores.

I think this is one that I'm not going to prepare him a lot for.

I'm just going to go ahead and spend a couple of hours looking over the questions and then write it.

Once you get through China, my view is that they're going to ask you about the press conference situation, which is boiling up and stirring up a little bit.

I understand that, but they will still ask you about the numbers of press conferences.

It's something that I don't worry about, because I don't think anyone cares about it except the press.

We'll have more.

We'll let you know.

We'll announce it to you.

Just like that.

Right, they needed you about that.

They needed you quite a bit.

How quickly did they look?

Just once a month?

Very quickly, and I just said... Well, this will be a...

I'll give him a good clear time.

That's pretty good, isn't it?

Yes, sir.

But they will ask you that.

That can be handled.

If this other...

If the anomaly builds, I think he can...

Without getting involved in having to say, well, I feel her kind, I think you just take the positive that you've done on honest criticism, and the staff people are always there speaking of you in support of the president.

Your view is that there's going to be criticism.

Well, I think the point is that...

Right.

The important thing is we are doing everything we can, and I think that in order for this to succeed, the other side has to...

I think I can just say, look, there's honest criticism and so forth and so on, and I'm not going to do any movies.

As far as criticism is concerned, that will be considered a repudiation.

But it's, I think, coming at this point, that that will be no problem.

No, really, that's right.

I'm not going to repudiate what you just said as far as criticism is concerned.

Because I'm not going to get into the muskies and the wreckings of everybody.

I'll say I'm not going to discuss it, which is all I'm going to say, is that we've united, to the extent that we can unite, and I'm pleased to propose that the chance for negotiation will be

But you have the responsibility to deal with this, and you're carrying out that responsibility in the way you feel will solve the problem.

I think it's important

to make over and over and over, and I think that would be a pretty good hot quote line for you to say, I have the responsibility to end this, I'm extending every effort to solve the problem, we're taking every step to solve the problem, and any support that I can have in these efforts is welcome, I think it's important in order to solve it.

Thank you.

You could be more right about the press conference question, because basically they want to be on television.

Most people would say we're on television too damn much anyway.

And also, they're the ones that want these things in the office, aren't they?

They prefer it.

Is that true?

The writing press?

Oh, it's the television.

You gave your list to us.

Of course they...

They'll do it at four.

I'm in the process of calling the guys who aren't going now.

Telling them they're not going.

They get pierced in their eyes, the whole thing.

Yeah, like Nick Nash and James?

Well, Cliff Evans.

Cliff who?

Cliff Evans of RKO and Alan Lito.

I also like to point that

American journalism should be damn pleased about the fact that they're getting overrated.

Because if you take your personal self-interest out of it, look at journalism as a body in this country, it's getting a hell of a break.

With all segments represented, all major news organizations, or many major news organizations being represented, but the guy who's totally just going, you know, doesn't want to marshal.

He kills them.

Everybody can't go.

That's the problem.

They all do that.

Now, Bill Buckley is flying back to...

He's in London now.

I'm sure he'll fly himself back here.

We're not to use it as a jet.

He's so happy.

He's really riding on it.

And breathing in water would be helpful with those guys.

I mean, that's just...

He runs this side of the missile.

Black here.

And bombs.

You have a shirt on?

I...

I got to stay here a little bit.

Henry is here, Tonya.

It blew the Henderson story wide open.

Are you talking about the Henderson paper?

Sure.

That's what did it.

That's what brought the damn thing on.

I would be over in China.

It may very well have been the thing that got the kit, whoever did it.

Well, it could have been a motivation factor, I don't know, but Al Hayden and I were in China when that came over.

The official in the Air Force once said, and we both looked at one another and said, there it goes, and it sure did go.

Henry, for instance, is more concerned about the media, at least I think he is.

about the comments that Bob made than I am.

I'm not terribly concerned about it if it's mushed up and diffused now, because I still think there was some advantage of getting this thought out there a little bit.

This may have done it.

The fact that...

But I think we've taken some advantage of finding out that our democratic friends are getting dissed too god damn as well.

And they are.

Let's face it, they're a common head of an unconscionable person.

Yes.

And Bob said what I hope a lot of people believe.

Now the only point is that we can't be in a position where we're conscious.

I can't.

Certainly you can't be.

I will not do that.

You can't.

I'm not going to appeal to any more Asian critics.

I mentioned that.

If I say that, I suppose they would say, well, he repudiated Mr. Alderman.

I should say, well, he was expressing his own views.

That's a repudiation.

You can't do that.

I think that's the way I did it this morning.

I said he did not... His intent was not to suggest that the critics wanted the enemy to succeed.

He was making the point that the effect would lead to...

lessen the ability, decrease the ability of your program to... Then they revert to me.

That's why I'm just wondering if in the press conference you say, well, I've always thought there should be honest criticism, there should be.

I'm not going to discuss the motives of anyone else.

And Bob has made it clear he's expressed his own personal view

But then they may say, well, do you agree?

And I think what you could do then is just look at the guy who asked you very closely and say, I've just told you what my view is, and I don't think anyone would follow up on it.

Then they would have to write that if they want to get bogged down in that, they would say, the president did not support Haldeman's view, but he made it clear he was expressing his own personal point of view on Haldeman's view.

I don't think they'll pressure us.

They won't pressure us.

I mean, Kennedy says you're prolonging the war so as to end it during the election.

Not one of those sons of bitches.

You're exactly right.

Not one of them.

Or a president.

Huh?

Or a president.

But they said no, man.

And never one of them will come to your defense.

Very interesting.

It's been 30 minutes and I've followed the president of Argentina.

You're not even a son.

Yes, and I gave you a little background.

I haven't seen muskie.

Can it be your?

You were clear that it did not apply to muskie.

Yes, sir.

Yes, I made the point.

Which you should.

They asked me, I said, honest criticism.

And they asked me about muskie.

And I said, well, you said, do you consider muskie's criticism honest?

I said, that's why I use the word honest.

I said, now, without associating what I'm about to say with any of the questions or any of the subjects we've been talking about up to this point, which was Haldeman,

First of all, I'd like to make it clear that Bob taped this thing on the 28th.

That was before February 2nd, remarks of Senator Musk.

And the reason that we addressed it here, the reason the Secretary of State addressed it, was that he was wrong in what he said, in terms of detail.

He was incorrect in his sign.

All right.

Thank you, sir.

I have a dollar on me.

Close, sir.

How long until I get out?

To the stairs.

Yes, I like that.

He's a...

He can always see the gold.

The other guy's eye.

Right.

I don't know.

I don't know where he's at.

I don't know.

It's too heavy for them.

They don't... Maybe through the weekend we may get a few things.

World Affairs is in a section in the magazines.

Too heavy for them.

All those things are not like China.

We live in that kind of a world.

It's too bad because they probably had to have a corporate report.

A long, long time ago,

You have issued a very extensive statement on busing, a very extensive statement on the whole school.

I constantly have to remind these guys to go back if they want to know your view, to go back and read it.

They say, well, summarize.

I say, I'm not going to attempt to summarize something that's in paper, 32 pages expressing the president's view.

If you want to

Find out.

Go read it.

They want you to do it.

But the more thoughtful and more intent the material is...