Nixon & Kissinger on People's Republic of China and William P. Rogers

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linking Taiwan directly with the Vietnam.

You said the 6,000 we put in for Vietnam, we're going to take out after Vietnam.

That, they, I don't think these guys understood it.

Yeah.

And we can still say...

There's just these tensions in the area that I'm trying to get along with.

That, because it took a whole night to get the very best tensions in, because they said, undoubtedly somebody will interpret it Vietnam, and we can't do that.

Right.

Uh...

And if you wanted to cut it down a little bit just to give it more thrust, but on substance I have no, I think you hit exactly the right note.

But the note we have to strike is that this is a major country with great dedication and a formidable country.

And the way Bill is going on about this being a listless, weak, slave society compared to which Taiwan is a good country,

If that is the line the state is going to put out, we are absolutely dead domestically, because why do we bother with such a slave?

Bill is putting it out there.

And B, Peking can't take that.

You know, he never, never can bring himself to... Not one word about you.

...build up the president.

He didn't say a goddamn thing.

You know, I build him up by saying, by getting an excuse why he wasn't at the Mao meeting, for example.

Oh, it was well done.

And I, uh, and also about, uh, his meeting.

They weren't, weren't worthy yet.

And then, of course, it hit.

And then saying, boy, the foreign minister took on me on hard, and I came back at him hard.

What, what a terribly self-serving shit.

Not one goddamn word about what you did.

Was it?

Uh, well, I'm gonna, with the cabinet, I wonder if the reason that I went on longer than I normally would, is it...

One thing you'd better realize, Henry, and Bill's better realize, they're there to hear me, and they've got to say that the president reported... Oh, no, I am the...

I don't want to talk about... No, what I mean is... Well, Bill went on for a half hour.

I was trying to get you on, but I didn't...

When he went through that first thing, I didn't know what in the name of Christ he was talking about.

But to speak of a listless society of Taiwan as a bustling country, of this being a dull, limited people, a drab...

It's a different society from ours.

It's...

They have their own motivation.

They couldn't behave in such unity unless they had high motivation.

Listen, they are, you see, those young people, that sports policy by God, they're a hell of a people.

Moreover, Mr. President, leaving everything aside, what's the President doing for seven days in a listless slave country that doesn't amount to much?

The only way we can make this meaningful is to say this is a tremendous country.

totally different from ours hostile to ours as you said it which for the sake of the peace in the world the president achieved a tremendous coup in establishing a dialogue pissing on them pisses on the whole enterprise in addition to ruining our relationship this is what worries me

You had exactly the right note.

The only point I ever said to the miner we had not said.

But you said, this is the most impressive man you've met in the world.

That's what they want to hear from me, the man.

Oh, no.

But why did the greatest man ever build?

Why did he come?

I was, I was, I'll tell you another issue that I, that I saw about him.

I'm curious.

that any sophisticated congressman or senator there, for Christ's sakes, all of us that have been to communist countries know that, you know, that they believe that between East Berlin and West Berlin, between Hungary and Austria... And the depredators... God damn it, the hell, we all know that.

That is dumb.

The hell to say.

And I also thought what he said about the foreign reaction.

Quite good.

Fairly good.

What does he try to do?

Now, with Ellen just sitting there,

He's saying Moscow's reaction, when the New York Times says the Moscow reaction was good, why does he have to say it isn't good?

With Allender sitting right there.

Boy, he's sitting on the floor and reacting.

What the Christ, what do you think he's trying to do?

Or is he just a little tired?

He is pissing on it in his own way.

It's a bad response.

And he's pushing himself.

You'd ask me to find out why he wasn't at the Mount meeting.

I didn't.

I'm not going to do it.

I can't.

Screw you.

If that bothers you, it doesn't bother me.

But it shows you what the hell he's thinking about.

That's the only thing he asked me to do is to find out why he wasn't at the Mount meeting and find out that my meetings were important.

But for Christ's sakes, what more can you do?

I couldn't believe it.

Then when he went into that schoolboyish business,

I mean, I did it last night.

I just said, look, they're dedicated, and let's be dedicated.

Goddamn it to hell.

That's all you need to say.

You said it beautifully.

I was so sick of that.

You said it beautifully.

I was so sick of that sort of thing.

And you made the point.

I want you to make more points.

And let me say in the cabinet, you ought to say a little something about me.

Bill is going to.

Well, you asked me to not to do it.

No, but I didn't.

I frankly thought Bill was going to say it.

I thought it was better for him to do it.

But I think you ought to say that the, I think, given the idea that this was the most you've watched, this is probably, there were two men better prepared.

I wanted to say it, but I thought... And that's one of the things I'd like for you to get across through your press briefing.

But I thought you had specifically told me not to do that yesterday.

I did tell you because I thought Bill was going to, you know, because otherwise I was talking about the plane.

But Bill is acting in a goddamn strange way.

I couldn't see her face, but I sat there.

I nearly got it.

I sat there again.

Hunter, amazing.

I nearly got it.

What the hell did he say?

On the plane?

On the Taiwan.

Goldwater first came up and said he did a good job, so he was all right.

But basically, on Taiwan, we've said all we need to say.

And I think we've just got too many dumb people around.

To say the foreign reaction is quite good.

God damn it, what does it kill him to say the foreign reaction is excellent?

Far surpassing anything we imagined.

Japanese reaction, very positive.

Soviet reaction, as you gentlemen can see in the New York Times,

Very restrained.

Why does he have to say the Soviets are the troops?

This will just drive Alinder up the wall.

I think what it is is he did not get to play in this trip.

He's just dying because of that.

But the leaders loved being here, though.

Oh, the leaders.

They eat up anything.

As you say, they eat up any morsel.

It was a great thing.

They all feel very warmly.

And I think your presentation was on the right level.

You were talking.

But we don't help ourselves by running down the Chinese.

We can say that... No, no.

I ran him up.

No, no.

You ran him up, and that's what I... That's what I came to do.

Look here.

We've always been running down the Russians now.

We've always been running down the Russians.

But I know the Russians are tough and strong, and they're in all the horrible aspects.

But to say that it's a slave society, we...

I just couldn't believe it.

You know, I was worse than you.

Like the Bronx Zoo.

Like the Bronx.

That ends up losing control.

Like the Bronx Zoo.

That's right.

My God, he said that.

I almost choked.

Oh, they'll take it.

They'll take it.

You've got to be careful.

Like the Bronx Zoo.

Well, like the Bronx Zoo has a comparison.

Taiwan is just... Well, he said, of course it's there.

It's old Singapore.

Yeah, but we can't say it.

But, Henry, the point is that, first of all, it's

It's school boys because everybody knows it's true.

They know that there is that comparison.

But second, second, the point is, it's so terribly stupid diplomatically.

What in the name of God is he trying to do?

Come back here and run them down?

What's he trying to do?

But you're true that he's a hardliner.

What is he trying to do?

Let me ask you.

What, by practice, is he trying to do, Henry?

Well, first, he's trying to prove he's a hardliner.

You see, it's not his nature to say Henry worked out the communique.

I haven't said it.

Uh, yeah, he said that Henry worked out the communique with the Deputy Minister, so that's a nice way for him to get off of it.

Uh, thank him.

Second, he might have said a word about the present, whatever feature he said.

He said something gracious about Mrs. Mason's performance, for example, or, you know, about the cars, you know.

These people, leaving aside now, first of all, I think it's a historical event, but more important than that, on this ground of self-interest of this administration,

We, by pitting on the Chinese, we're pitting on ourselves.

Because why are you doing it?

Because it's a tremendous thing to do, not because it's a nothing.

Why should you waste a week of your time that way?

And...

I'm not going to give my turn to chat with people.

I cut it down a little bit.

Oh, no, I'm going to speak.

I'm going to give that about 20 minutes.

I'll let you take your time.

You take a lot of time.

Well, I really, I had wanted to say, for example, I didn't want to say it was with Mao, but I was going to move that quote to the show meeting where you said you don't know me there, so you can't ask me.

And I'll mention it at this meeting.

Oh, yeah, I'll hear you soon.

I'll tell you, it was at the first meeting with Joe, you began that way.

And I didn't track it.

You notice, though, I said, well, they really want from us...

It's technology.

It's technology and trade.

He said they were very, very worried about Russia and Japan.

But their principal reason for this meeting is to get along with them.

If he thinks that, is that a 50-gram line?

That's pure bullshit!

I don't want him to say the principal reason is because of Russia and the rest, but he shouldn't say something of this sort.

I think he believes it.

What worries me is what he's going to say when he goes before congressional committees and what his goddamn department is going to say now when they yak around the press.

The Bronx Zoo thing.

Oh, you missed that, didn't you?

The Bronx Zoo.

I was so horrified.

I wrote it down.

No, I was so horrified.

I think the Bronx Zoo is cheap.

Well, it doesn't get out.

That's the point.

See, it sums it all up.

The time on comparison.

Well, it makes them look like animals.

It's unbelievable.

It's like the old British attitude.

Well, if it gets out, we have to disavow it.

I tell you, Mr. President, if it does get out...

We have shocked a year's policy.

I was really beside myself.

Why don't we send a message to him now that Ricker's not going to catch it?

Well, it's hard to tell a country not to pay attention to the Secretary of State.

Why?

It's time to do it.

Well, let's wait how it starts.

I'll leave the money in the garage as soon as it's quoted.

Well, if it is, we're in trouble.

Nixon & Kissinger on People's Republic of China and William P. Rogers

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on February 29, 1972

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