Nixon, Romney & Sanchez on Revenue sharing and Urban housing policy

3:16President, how am I, sir?
3:18Sorry.
3:18Good.
3:18I've got a good weekend down there.
3:20I guess I'll be out on Sunday.
3:21Oh, all right.
3:23Yeah, I'll be right back.
3:23How about you?
3:24All good.
3:26And away at Bellstones.
3:28Oh, I've got one weekend down in...
3:33Florida.
3:34I went down there and talked to the engineers down there over the weekend.
3:41Two weeks ago they told me it was cold.
3:45I heard about that.
3:47We had three perfect days down there.
3:50When it's nice down there, it's good for this morale.
3:55Yeah, that's right.
3:57We were there.
3:58I went down this year.
4:02Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
4:04It just couldn't have been better.
4:08That's right.
4:09And then on Sunday, it began to rain a little bit.
4:12So what could you ask for?
4:14What could you ask for?
4:18That must have been a horrible state of the order in China.
4:21Well, you know, the problem is, as you know, these trips, when you get there, you know, they're kind of nervous.
4:26You never know when they're going to be able to get out.
4:29Let's see, I'm going to have a little tea.
4:32I think ginger ale.
4:34Ginger ale, of course.
4:36Yeah, tea is fine.
4:37Did you like the Chinese tea set or the regular one?
4:44Maybe the Chinese tea set.
4:45It's very mild.
4:46This is not mild.
4:47Did you know we had one revenue share in Richmond?
4:52That wasn't the first time I heard that.
4:59through the center.
5:01The urban special revenue sharing, that was in there.
5:04Basically, it's through the center.
5:07See, that was a nine.
5:10Well, that's the housing and the rest of it.
5:14But, you know, that's good.
5:16You know, that's the first one.
5:20It was put that way.
5:21You might get this one through.
5:22Well, yeah.
5:23As a matter of fact, the house is marching up this afternoon.
5:28This is out of this committee.
5:33Yeah, it's our last meeting.
5:34All right.
5:35I'm talking now.
5:51So, Sparklin just didn't try to carry it out or anything?
5:54No, no, no.
5:55He's a decent man.
5:57Well, he really is a good student.
5:59Well, of course, they have to run a man, but they have a charge.
6:05You know, John's...
6:10John would be probably well advised not to run this time.
6:14They're going to kill him on that.
6:16He may not.
6:16Some people in that age are not too old, but, you know, he shows it.
6:20He doesn't want any personal conversation, but I'm sure when he gets out there and stomp, that he's going to look a little... Don't you think so?
6:29I could.
6:29I've seen him in public performances where he demonstrates a good sense of humor.
6:34Oh, yeah, that's right.
6:36Well, he's got his appearance.
6:36It's the appearance of it.
6:38His face looks older than he actually is.
6:41And sometimes you take that boy out there, he's 80, but he doesn't look younger.
6:45He looks 50 or so.
6:46That's right.
6:48He's bouncing up and down the mountains and all that sort of thing.
6:53That's really difficult to have.
6:54Yeah, he's tough.
6:57He's tough.
6:58But I suppose he must have something that keeps him looking that way.
7:04He's a different kind of person.
7:08Another thing that pleased me very much, I was over this morning talking to the League of Cities and the Conference of Mayors.
7:15They've got about 800 here.
7:17This includes the small town mayors, the suburban mayors, and the big city mayors.
7:26And I talk to them about the housing problem in the central cities, and the need to get at the problems of the real cities, and the fact that the suburbs and the central cities are basically in the same boat here, and they need to get together and work out these real city problems on a real city basis.
7:46And I use this as an illustration
7:49what happened to the country in these early years, because under the Articles of Confederation, this country would never survive, because the states were not permitting the nation to deal with national problems.
8:05Now, in the same way in these metropolitan areas, the suburban communities
8:12are asserting their independence and countering the point where they won't get at these common problems.
8:17And these are very clever examples.
8:20And the interesting thing to me was, Mr. President, when I got through this one, it gave me a real standing ovation.
8:28But then the interesting thing was that Sam LaSalle from Atlanta, who was presiding, announced that
8:38they have decided to make the real city the theme for their next annual meeting.
8:42The real city?
8:45Yeah.
8:47Now, I first discussed this in Philadelphia last spring at their meeting at the Congress of Mayors in Philadelphia.
8:58And I haven't imposed much on you in the way of reading material.
9:04But if you get a chance, I would appreciate it if you'd take a look at that, which was the real city talk, and then the talk I'm in today.
9:17That's a little better worked out than this a little rough, not too well done.
9:24But in any event, this got the point across.
9:28And it relates to what I really basically want to talk about to some extent.
9:36And let me preface what I have to say by expressing really
9:44the greatest appreciation I can to the Russian Congress, which is important.
9:52I was here last time, and I deeply appreciate it.
9:56And I want to say goodbye.
9:58Well, it's been a great privilege to be a part of this effort.
10:02You've got a tough department.
10:07Well, I'm here to help you with this stuff.
10:12And his case, his is just tough because it's a huge conglomerate.
10:17It's too damn big.
10:18That's what that department is.
10:20And also, it has to be yours.
10:23You have the whole British society except for the whole thing.
10:26That's right.
10:27And I've got a big constituency, a building constituency, and therefore it's so hard to handle.
10:34I know I sympathize with your point.
10:36You see, I've got three of the toughest things rolled into one.
10:41The cities, race, and housing.
10:46And housing gets affected by the epistemology of the common city more than any part of the economy.
10:51And in housing, and in the cities, you've got this fragmented, balkanized situation.
10:57And you've got the race thing, and the race issue is more sensitive in connection with housing than is anything else.
11:05Oh, I know.
11:06Even more at schools.
11:07Even more at school, yeah.
11:08The school then wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the transportation.
11:12That's right.
11:13You know, I don't think that people who care, I don't care, certainly, feel that people care much about whether they have black kids and white kids together, but if they have to carry them too far, that poses a problem that black people have.
11:25That's the problem there, and it is, but the housing thing,
11:28That gets in the economic sense, right?
11:30That's the reason it's so hard for some of them, I think.
11:33And a lot of them have some social as well.
11:34Well, the social thing, probably, they don't like to admit that.
11:37If you really come down to them, they'll say, well, I paid so much for my little house, and I don't want the value of it to go down.
11:44You know, there's a lot of that in Mr. George.
11:45No question about it.
11:47Because folks are affected by that pocketbook more than anything else.
11:50It's the most sensitive nerve in the body.
11:53You know, I can admit it to you.
11:55Well, as I did last time, my only purpose in life is to do what I can for you, besides my family, my children.
12:06And I'm enjoying my job.
12:10This is the toughest job I've ever had.
12:12I've never had one as tough as this.
12:16And I've had some tough jobs.
12:18There's no comparison.
12:21And this was Tyler of American Motors.
12:22And again, because of the complexity of the situation.
12:26And Michael realized that he covered for the American Motors, the big governor of Michigan.
12:32Well, yeah, and I want to touch on that.
12:35Because I wasn't quite stuck there, too.
12:37Yeah, that's right, but this is more difficult because the solution to some of these problems haven't been developed yet, Mr. President.
12:46That's why what I say in those talks about the real city, it may be along the lines of working out some of the answers to some of these problems, but in any event,
13:02What I want to talk about is something I don't need a decision on now, but I do appreciate the opportunity to get your judgment.
13:10And let me practice it by reminding you that Lincoln indicated that this nation would never be conquered from without it.
13:16If it was destroyed, it would be destroyed from within.
13:18It would commit suicide.
13:21Now... That was even before he was president.
13:24That's correct.
13:26Now...
13:30My observation as I watch the political scene and the way in which we deal with our problems, that there's one great deficiency in our free societies.
13:44And that great deficiency is that we have not yet devised a way, as far as I can see, by which we can resolve absolutely fundamental problems that are going to lead to a crisis.
13:59before we reach this stage of crisis.
14:02That we almost achieve our fundamental reforms through crisis rather than through anticipation crisis.
14:12And Lippmann points out that this is due to the fact that the very elective process means that you can't be right too soon politically without suffering political defeat.
14:26And he points to Churchill as a man who wasn't obliterated politically, but after all he was almost obliterated as a result of being right with respect to Germany.
14:38And even Lincoln in his House Divided speech indicated that
14:45The husband of the nation couldn't survive half-slave, half-free, but he had despaired of this being resolved, except as a result of the nation going through a great crisis, and the nation would have to pay.
14:55And even in the crisis, too, he had to temporize with slavery.
14:58That's right.
14:59That's right.
14:59The Emancipation Proclamation, I think he will fail to realize, didn't apply to the North.
15:04That's right.
15:04It didn't apply to the South.
15:05That's right.
15:06It's a war action.
15:07In fact, even though he was against slavery.
15:08That's right.
15:09It wasn't his.
15:09That's right.
15:12And it connects with this problem.
15:14I came across this statement of Henry C. Simons several years ago, in which he calls attention to the essentiality of a body of truth seekers.
15:47Well, that's right.
15:57As a matter of fact, I came across this in connection with the Organization of Citizens for Michigan.
16:04And you see, one reason that this impressed me a great deal was that what was happening in Detroit and the school situation before we worked that one out.
16:14through getting a body of citizens to just dedicate themselves as citizens.
16:20Plus, I'd like you to have and not to have, because I'll tell you, this is an undelivered speech that I prepared in December of 68 and didn't deliver.
16:32And I didn't deliver it then because I thought it would be misinterpreted.
16:36But it deals with this very question I'm raising here.
16:40And it also includes a quote in there by Lippmann pointing out that you can't afford to write too soon.
16:47And it goes on to point out that this handicap of not being able to deal with basic issues while they're still in their controversial stage means that political campaigns as a rule can't focus sufficient attention on the real issues
17:09because of the, you lose votes.
17:14And the result is you don't have a relevant discussion that is needed to educate the public so that then when you have responsibility, you have the public understanding, the support necessary to act.
17:27Now, if we're running for that, I may digress a moment.
17:30The decision I have to make in the next few weeks, I hope, Mr.
17:35Senator, and then later,
17:37on this busing thing.
17:39It's a hell of a difficult problem, but it's something that shouldn't have to be decided in a political year.
17:46It's just something.
17:48And yet, with everybody running out, some are for constitutional amendments, and some are against it, and some are for legislation.
17:53So somebody's got to get some leadership on this.
17:56So we've got to react to it, rather than try to let the thing go all through.
18:01It's a terrible problem.
18:02I agree with you.
18:04Now, what we did in the school situation in Detroit was we had this citizen group, and we were dedicated truth-seekers, and we really had to define the issues and agree on what they were, and we had a complete cross-section.
18:16And then we undertook to agree on what facts were really facts that we agreed on.
18:22That narrowed our differences down to a minimum point.
18:25Then we undertook to define alternative solutions.
18:29And then we only recommended to the city of Detroit, this was before Sputnik, you know, this started...
18:36We only recommended to the city of Detroit the things we were in agreement on.
18:40We had a complete cross-section.
18:41We said, the hell with these things we're in disagreement on.
18:43If we could just get action on the things we're in agreement on.
18:46We made 182 recommendations, Mr. President.
18:47Every one of them was adopted.
18:48Now, it was that experience that led me, when Michigan was in crisis, to suggest this Citizens for Michigan.
18:56And Citizens of Michigan went through this same process with a representative group of citizens across the state.
19:02And this included acting partisans, because you don't have to leave the partisans out.
19:05Yeah, I noticed that Simon's quote didn't leave him out.
19:08No, no, he had a terrific part to play.
19:10He said, the effective discussion presupposes an elaborate division of labor between navigators and dispatching of students.
19:17Yeah.
19:18But we had the man.
19:20And what we did was to identify the basic issues that Michigan had to deal with if it was gonna solve this problem.
19:29And we identified just two.
19:31One was we had to have constitutional reform because the state government couldn't function effectively.
19:37And number two was we had to have tax reform.
19:39Now, we then went to work and we got those things.
19:44And we got those things even though all the vested interests in the state of Michigan were against us, Mr. President.
19:51We had with us, in Citizens for Michigan, the League of Women Voters, the church fund, the junior chamber of commerce, and the media.
20:01because the media were convinced we were trying to do an objective job.
20:04But at any event, as a result of that experience, and my concern about some of the problems in the nation that were shaping, in my opinion, towards crisis, which I think is the greatest in the country's history, but at any event,
20:27I was in the process of undertaking to put together a Citizens for America when I was confronted with this question of whether I was going to run for governor or whether I was going to continue down that road.
20:39And I'm telling you what I was going to do.
20:41To expand it, yeah.
20:42Well, we were going to organize one on a Citizens for America basis, and we had a representative group of national leaders that we were working with.
20:52And I decided the governorship was more important because I could never have completed the constitutional
21:00convention and secure adoption of the Constitution, we've never secured taxes.
21:03That's 66.
21:06That was 60.
21:06That's 62.
21:07Well, the Constitutional Convention was 61, 62.
21:1362 Iran.
21:14But when you first talked to me in New York in 60, when you were just in the process of the seal settlement about my running for Senate in 60,
21:24I was involved in Citizens for Michigan at that point, and I decided not to get involved in acting politics because of that, but to continue that, and I decided to run for governor because I, rather than Citizens for America, because we had completed the child's admission.
21:44So it wasn't working.
21:48I don't personally believe that the current political atmosphere permits an adequate discussion of what I think are absolutely fundamental issues in this country without too much political jeopardy, too much political racism.
22:06And I think there are four.
22:09There are fundamental.
22:10One is lack of confidence in government, which you have identified, but what you have to do to deal with it.
22:18And here again, you have done a great deal in this area.
22:21The clumsy centralization of federal government, revenue sharing and so on, is moving in that direction.
22:26But we've also got this fragmentation of state government, of the obsolete character of state government, the inability of state government to function.
22:35And more seriously of all, we've got this ball-tied local government, Mr. President, which is, which involves two very sensitive issues, one in race,
22:48and the others that's concerned on the part of the suburbs, that if they become part of the real city, that they're gonna be submerged with the conditions together.
23:02And yet, Mr. President, I don't know how, I really don't know how the housing problem, I don't know how some of these other problems should be dealt with, unless there could be developed a means of getting at it.
23:16And I had a chance to discuss that today in that speech I made, and to indicate that the real city approach has to be one that is based on equal concern for the suburbs and the central cities.
23:31And I think we're approaching the point where that could possibly be encouraged and brought about because the suburbs are beginning to experience the problems that have been identified as being some silly problems.
23:43Crime's going the fastest in the suburbs now.
23:46Drug addiction's going the fastest.
23:47Menorrhagic disease.
23:48Life's beginning to reach out to these suburbs.
23:51So they're beginning to have to face those problems.
23:54But in any event, that's one issue that this organization will overcome, the new city, especially.
24:00Now, second is this abuse of excessive private power.
24:04And that deal is a matter that you and I talked about many times.
24:09And I do not personally believe that this country can be made competitive economically without the strength in the market mechanism and the competitive discipline.
24:23And I think the principle involved is as simple as the restraining trade principle
24:30was the essence of the Sherman Act, and that really gave us the competitive economy in the first place, namely abuse of power.
24:40And if there was a prohibition of abuse of power, and to be administered by the Department of Justice the way the restraint of trade is administered, and if applying labor to labor and industry both,
24:55or the criterion being that if their wage actions or price actions that are clearly out of line with the economic factors of the situation, that this is an abuse of power and consequently should be rescinded with the Department of Justice authorized to take administrative action and subject to appeal to an economic court.
25:26I don't think it could go into the general courts, but an economic court could.
25:34This abusive power concept was developed, that approach was developed by McCracken and McLaren.
25:42in their effort to try and figure out what to do about this.
25:47But in any event, in my opinion, again, you're dealing with something where there is a reluctance on the part of those who run for public office to deal with this problem because of the reaction of labor and other elements.
26:08And we don't have as much relevant public discussion of this as is really needed, in my opinion.
26:18Now, the third one is this confined, contagious central city situation.
26:23I already touched on that, but the fourth one, in my opinion, is the extent to which
26:33This structure of suburban governments around the central cities is building up critical masses of militant minority citizens.
26:45Now, what do you mean by division of the country into minorities?
26:48Well, all I mean by that, if you take Washington, D.C., here's the capital area.
26:56That's the Washington, D.C.
26:58Now, that's only a statement of the real city of Washington.
27:02The real city of Washington spreads out here now in two states and with a large number of communities.
27:12Now, in practically every metropolitan area is taxed in the country.
27:16The zoning ordinances, the tax structure, the building code procedures,
27:25are designed, importantly, to limit the blacks and the poor to the central center, to the capital area.
27:36Oh, this building over here, this is Prince George.
27:38And you take a look at all of these.
27:41You take a look at Detroit and St. Louis and Chicago and New York and you name it.
27:46And what's happening is that there are critical masses of the poor and minority citizens.
27:56building up in these central cities because they're confined to the central city.
28:03They're fetched in.
28:04Now, this is a duplication on a more massive basis of what's happened to these public housing projects.
28:14Well, that's the law of process, yeah.
28:16And fear.
28:17And then there's the law of fear.
28:18You might, just to have a minute, have a connection.
28:21You might try to develop a phrase, just so it's not going to take you off your track.
28:25But you remember Churchill put it in, and now, unfortunately, some of this is coming down over the world.
28:33It's changed all that much of it.
28:36You know, the iron curtain was a great first.
28:38That's right.
28:39He actually did not develop it.
28:42He picked it up from something 40 years before, but he applied it to Fulton, Missouri.
28:46You might call it a...
28:50But think of the curtain.
28:52You're trying to operate it like that.
28:54You know, the iron curtain, the... Not the iron... Well, that's what you mean.
29:01You're right.
29:02A curtain made out of...
29:04or wall, or a curtain or a wall, like... Related wall.
29:06Yeah, iron curtain.
29:07That's what, related to things like that.
29:10What about, as a matter of fact, to what extent there is that sort of wall?
29:14Well, and I think I'd rather...
29:17You see, what's happening is that as a result of confining the poor and the blacks, the minority citizens pretty much in the central cities, and the jobs moving out of the central cities now as a result of freeways, the unemployment is highest among the young blacks.
29:37And they're the ones committing the most crime in the country.
29:40And they're the ones that are most determined that they're going to get equality now, not for their children.
29:47That's exactly what I see.
29:50And in my opinion, the black sealer largely convinced that they can get justice through our present system.
30:03But on the other hand, if they don't see enough evidence of progress to sustain that hope, the militants can become more and more effective with them on the basis that they've got to destroy the system.
30:14And in my opinion, we're going to be confronted with more and more of that sort of expectation.
30:19But at any rate, this is a part of the problem.
30:23And I really believe that if we're going to have a generation of peace, that we've got to deal with these issues at home as well as the ones abroad.
30:35Let me see if I can recap and start from the back and then the city.
30:42There are really three.
30:44There is the abuse of power of the citizen, the abuse of power of the city, rather.
30:48There are four.
30:50The lack of confidence in government.
30:52Well, that's not a separate problem.
30:54The other three contribute to that.
30:56That's right.
30:57Now, let me say this to you, too, also about revenue sharing.
31:01As you know, I've been ardent for revenue sharing.
31:04On the other hand, revenue sharing is not going to change this economy.
31:09Well, one of the reasons this is going to change is that a hell of a lot of people have any confidence in the local government.
31:20That's right.
31:21Well, really, the point I wanted to raise for you is this, is I take a look at what I've done and what I can do.
31:29I have sold ideas at different times in my life.
31:34When I first went out there, Michigan and I sold in the auto industry.
31:39Ruthie was trying to take us over at the start of the war.
31:42We had to sell the idea of voluntary cooperation.
31:45The whole industry cooperated to sell the job.
31:47And it really went all out.
31:52And I helped sell that idea.
31:55And it worked.
31:59Then American Motors decided I had to dig into car-linking concepts until I came up with this compact concept, which is my concept, and I went out and sold it.
32:13And then came the Michigan situation.
32:18I dug into that until I came up with what I thought would be a key consideration, and I went out and sold it.
32:27Now, I know I'm a bit on the idealistic side rather than the pragmatic side, see?
32:36But at any event, as I carry my accommodation, both questions sound themselves on the edge.
32:45Now, as I take a look at the situation,
32:58I wonder if at some stage, and I don't know when, but if at some stage it wouldn't be possible that I might make a greater contribution by going out and doing what one individual can do in undertaking to pull together a Citizens for America or a Truth group.
33:27that would really proceed on a realistic, in a realistic way to do that sort of thing.
33:34Now John Gardner had that opportunity, but he's munted.
33:36Well he became, don't you think he did it because he became political?
33:40Sure.
33:41In fact, he became an almost partisan political.
33:43Yeah, well, he became personal political.
33:46Well, look at that, you're building yourself up.
33:49Well, he went out on issues that he personally felt strong about.
33:52But he didn't go through the long process necessary to enable the people who were looking to him with hope to let them participate in identifying the major issues.
34:04Yeah, you think he's lucky.
34:05Oh, I think he's true.
34:07I think personally what's happening to him is currently he's, I don't know about...
34:13No, on the media as well, as you can see.
34:15But if he could have taken the time to identify two or three answers to his basic issues.
34:20Yeah, he was an armistice.
34:22He had a lot of color to begin with.
34:25A lot of Republicans.
34:25That's right.
34:26That's right.
34:26They had the money.
34:27That's right.
34:27And the people we know, the art, you know, our friends, the papers, they were all getting into the art.
34:33They got into the art.
34:38Now, I don't know how you noticed it, but about a couple of weeks ago, Arthur Kroc had a column in the Washington Post.
34:45And I have a great respect for Arthur Kroc.
34:48But he took out Arthur Gardner on the basis that Gardner had failed to deal with the really
34:54And he said the one he failed to deal with was this, Kroc always talked about union power.
35:00I've always put on a broader basis that it's price and I know Kroc's always talked about that.
35:05And the other thing was that he had to step into the busing issue and the race issue here.
35:11He stuck with that.
35:12He took all the easy things out of it.
35:23The question I'm really raising with you is, is this basic analysis realistic, and is it right?
35:33And at some time, would there be point in undertaking to pull together such a truth?
35:39Now, maybe it's after the election, or maybe it's some other time, because I don't know what the timing is.
35:53I just wonder this, Mr. President.
35:56As far as I'm concerned, it's absolutely imperative that you be re-elected.
36:00There's no one else who could have done what you have done or can do what you're in a position to do in the next five years.
36:08On the other hand, the question I have in my mind is,
36:15Are you going to be able to deal with some of these tough issues even in a second term unless there is more of an effort to create public understanding and support so it can be done?
36:29Because ideally, in my opinion, ideally, there would be in a free society
36:39a body that is recognized for its objectivity and its diligent search to identify basic issues that are going to create real crises, and then go through this process of defining issues so that there's consensus, facts,
37:02alternative solutions and with the understanding and support of the media, creating a climate within which the political contest and campaigns can take place within the framework of the relevant and real issues.
37:18Now that's really what happened in Michigan.
37:21The only reason I went out there in that democratic state was because through Citizen Michigan we had focused
37:30public attention on these real issues.
37:34And I could discuss them, and I ran on the basis of an income tax.
37:38What the hell do I think for a governor to run on reform and an income tax?
37:42I knew it was reform.
37:43I didn't know you were running the tax.
37:45Well, sure, we would let her, but so do you understand that you had to look into it.
37:50Well, sure.
37:50In a way, we had a crisis there.
37:53But in any event, let me say, let me ask you this.
37:59First, the idea is a good one.
38:02The idea is that anybody in a position of public leadership, you see it as I see it here, but you need a climate in which those things that are right, that you can advocate,
38:22and will be accepted by the majority of the people.
38:25That's right.
38:27That's right.
38:29If you're out there and the Congress votes you down, and the Congress, basically, you're just like a bunch of people defending you.
38:37That's exactly right.
38:38They all say they're on the Achilles' heel because of their ambitions.
38:42They're out there dancing.
38:43They get the poll.
38:44They wait in their mail.
38:46They watch the media.
38:47And that's why they, like, on any of these issues, they're going to reflect the folks.
38:51That's right.
38:53Now let's go back in the labor fields.
38:55I was in the Congress.
38:56I was on the Labor Committee.
38:58It was the Indian Congress at that time.
39:03We wouldn't have had a prayer to get through that, you know, which many of us in that labor, which should have been stronger as it turned out.
39:09You could have taken, that's right, you could have taken an old heartless position, you know, which would have broken up many of your right-hand men.
39:15You had the right amendment.
39:15That's right, that's right.
39:17But Taft killed it.
39:17And not Taft.
39:18His Taft killed it.
39:18Taft killed it in the Senate.
39:19That's right.
39:20He couldn't control the people with it.
39:22He figured he'd get sued for that.
39:23He was right.
39:23Taft was, Taft was against it.
39:25That's right.
39:26But I remember a few years ago.
39:28He knew that Truman was going to veto the bill, so we had to have it to the thirds.
39:31That's why.
39:32Now, that's why it is, though, the more basic why it is.
39:35When all these fellows come in, you know, we've been around, we've been talking about this really for a while, and various people, these various people say, we need something to control here.
39:44And you've heard me say often, I say, fellows, I know you do.
39:47That's right.
39:47I said, I, we, I, we, but look, actually, we've got our transportation bill down there, and it hasn't seen the light of day.
39:52We, and that's just one piddly little, it starts out big, but it's important, it's more piddly, but it's a drop.
39:58and to be late, but I said, until we get a Congress which is more responsive, and that means a public opinion is more responsible, you haven't got the chance.
40:08I'm getting labor legislation through the Congress.
40:11That's right.
40:11Not a chance of snowballing hell.
40:13That's right.
40:13I can get up and make a speech every week.
40:14I can't solve it.
40:15Not now.
40:15That's right.
40:17So there needs to be a change in the attitude of the country so that that reflects on the Congress.
40:22That's right.
40:23Now, the real question, George, would concern me.
40:25He says, I wouldn't want any good friend to get out and do something, and then I could.
40:33It would be...
40:34The main thing to make a limelight fiscal was the leadership, which I'm sure you could provide.
40:38But frankly, you would have to get a commitment in advance from some responsible people that would put up a nest egg.
40:48Well, Gardner did have, I assume, some, and then of course he had a broad-based solicitation.
40:54If you get the nest egg in the first instance,
40:57Your own salesmanship probably would get continued on the basis of broad-based solicitation.
41:03So the real question, and without trying to pry at anything you may not have done or may not be able to do...
41:10I don't want anything on this, Mr. President.
41:12Well, my question then is, do you think you could do that?
41:15Well, could you go... What you'd have to do is, it would seem to me, to go to half of us people.
41:18I think you can follow up on that.
41:19Well, what the hell.
41:20Everybody can follow up.
41:25There are a lot of people running around who've got $100,000 or so that would contribute to something like this.
41:32And another, this could be set up for somebody who's thinking out loud.
41:36You could set this up versus the tax as accommodation, which gets it out of politics.
41:42That would mean they could make a contribution in that way.
41:45You see, the great tragedies of the Dan Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Foundation, they ought to be doing this.
41:52That's right.
41:52But they don't.
41:53That's right.
41:54They don't.
41:55They just subsidize what the hell is going on.
41:57Oh, they're all on the left.
42:00But basically, do they go into these issues really?
42:03No, they're not.
42:05The Urban Coalition, well, it was pretty good for a while and so forth, but then it sort of fragmentized and it became the powers that were fighting each other.
42:14That's what happened.
42:16And John Byron, as you said, personalized the causes.
42:20He was wrong, for example, to get all of them from Vietnam.
42:23There were enough other people to talk about Vietnam.
42:26That's right.
42:26That's right.
42:27But you were basing the message.
42:28That's right.
42:29Vietnam asked everybody.
42:31He had everybody jump up and down about that.
42:33They didn't need him for that.
42:34And as a result of that, I think he should have broken his cake.
42:38But the point is that in this view, I would say that there is, for example, a need to get a proper public support and understanding of the need to
42:50frankly, control power in all areas.
42:53That's one of your things.
42:54There is a need to get a proper understanding and support of the problem of minorities, race, militancy, and so forth.
43:02What do you do about it?
43:03There's a need to get a proper public understanding of the problem of what you call the new city, etc.
43:11But the fight is, the fight about it all is that is there a way you could do this
43:21Do you think there's a way to get a beginning?
43:24If you were a super billionaire, it would be different, but not that much.
43:32You'd have to have a finance.
43:33If you don't have it, you don't have it.
43:37Well, you know well enough.
43:40Your citizens were mentioned to have good money behind it.
43:42You had four behind it, didn't you?
43:44Well, we didn't have a radio company.
43:46You did it with the small staff?
43:48We did do it with the small staff.
43:50We had some funds, but we solicited the other one.
43:52But you do need good staff.
43:54You've got to have good staff for it, that's for sure.
43:57You'd have to have good staff for it.
43:59If staff cost money, you'd have to have travel expenses.
44:02That costs money.
44:05If it got going, it could really catch on.
44:08It's something that I would welcome from the standpoint of the country.
44:12But the only point is that I'm just raising one flag.
44:17If you could, let me put it this way, if you could do it, sir, you would render it probably a greater service than your being the candidate.
44:26But, on the other hand, I hate to say you to see you, after, you know, having been successful in so many areas, take something on and then be frustrated by it.
44:36Well, let me stop.
44:38Let me talk alternatives.
44:39You've probably thought about alternatives.
44:41Let me talk alternatives here.
44:46This is not a very auspicious, an election year is not the most auspicious time to undertake an election.
44:53Because of the competition for funds.
44:56And the competition for attention.
44:57Now, it might be a good time to begin it.
45:01You can only look at it that way.
45:02But it is a good time to start it full-blown.
45:05That's right.
45:07What the hell are you up to?
45:08That's right.
45:08They always raise the question.
45:15Number two, it may be that there are two aspects of this situation that even the platform might give some attention to.
45:28One is the economic aspect of strengthening the market mechanism out of competitive principles and disciplines.
45:35Because I don't think that can be dealt with so as a constructive and necessary thing in light of what we're up against from an economic standpoint domestically and around the world.
45:45And you've been pointing out the totally new competitive world.
45:50You know, one of the things we have to realize is this is going to happen in your time and mine, George.
45:55That system in all totalitarian countries is one that to us will never work.
46:03Now, it's a very frightening thing, and so forth, and we say, why do they have it?
46:07But that means that we have to look at the solid fact that Russia, nobody knows how it's going to work, and so forth, is now the second most powerful industrial company in the world.
46:20Totalitarianism, all of its failure, if it is to fly long enough, makes some, I don't know people, but it makes it work.
46:28Now, let's take that system.
46:30and apply the fanaticism and the capability that the communist Chinese have.
46:37You put it on a billion people, and 25 years from now, your children, grandchildren, and mine, we are going to have one hell of a time unless we get up to the mark.
46:47See, that's what I was trying to account for.
46:49It isn't a question of whether there's only a few at the top that basically know about the system.
46:54The Chinese have never had any.
46:58decent, you know, they haven't been in one country for a long time.
47:04But on the other hand, looking far in the future, they are formidable people, and therefore will be a formidable challenger.
47:09And we've got to face that fact.
47:11Now, what do you do about that?
47:13Well, you don't fence them off and say, look, here's what I've done.
47:15Because then you're going to fight them one day, that's right.
47:18But on the other hand, by saying you're going to talk to them, it means you've got to compete with them.
47:23And if you're going to attack England, you're going to have one hell of a time.
47:27No question.
47:28All these people who want us to compete with Russia, you know, they want us to buy that, sell that on the river, probably.
47:34They're thinking of all that stuff.
47:36We're going to sell the Russians.
47:37And we're going to sell them grain and probably make a deal with them.
47:40Okay.
47:41That's all we're going to do.
47:43But a totalitarian society, they haven't got a hell of a lot that they need.
47:46But if they want to try with lost leaders, they could be in our hands.
47:53Exactly right.
47:53And here's where...
47:56Here's where we in America have got to get going.
47:59Now these are things that you can't go out, I can't go out and frighten people down.
48:03None of them.
48:04They'll say, oh God, there's a bomb.
48:06Well, you can't bomb it.
48:08No, no.
48:09See my point?
48:11So I see the need for all this.
48:13I see the need for a regeneration.
48:15First you've got to tackle the problem of...
48:18of business power, labor power, et cetera.
48:20You've got to tackle the problem of division in the city as well.
48:25That's right.
48:26All these problems need to be tackled.
48:28The question is when.
48:29The question is how.
48:30If you could do it, it would be a great service.
48:32But how else can you get out of it?
48:34There are two alternatives.
48:36There are several alternatives.
48:38One would be to...
48:45Do it after the election, rather than before.
48:53Obviously, if you had encouragement on your part, why, it would make a big difference.
49:02Although it has to be independent.
49:05Let me answer that question to begin with, if you do decide to do it at any time.
49:11that I would, of course, give encouragement, but in such a way that I made it absolutely clear that this was completely non-partisan.
49:21That's right.
49:21That's the important thing.
49:23If I had encouraged you, it could not be the way that you tell it.
49:26That's right.
49:27You'd have to.
49:30That's why you'd have to bridge, it would seem to me, whenever you do it, to a very prominent Democrat Senate to deal first.
49:37No question.
49:39You could probably get them.
49:42Well, can you get them after the election or can you get them now?
49:46Sure, sure.
49:49And what I'd like to work towards is
49:55language that would relate to the platform as far as the economic aspect of the real city are concerned, but not in a controversial manner.
50:03And then take a look at Texas and you have to fuzz it up right now.
50:06You've got to fuzz it up because it can be a little ambiguous, but then
50:12But, Fred, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a look at those.
50:14And if the appropriate time when you've had time, I feel like the burden's on your time.
50:22But in any event, if you conclude that this is something to do, actually, as I'm inclined to think, having thought about it since our last, since I mentioned it earlier, why,
50:39I think the analysis is correct.
50:42I think the idea is that one thing that it seems to me that you should address yourself to, and I'd like you to do it a month or so or whatever, maybe do it two weeks.
51:02But then you ought to figure out a game plan.
51:06Who are some of the people you could bring in?
51:09I was thinking on the finance side here.
51:14Well, you've got a lot of people.
51:18As I said, how do you get John Cuthbert's list?
51:20His angels always support this sort of thing, because it's what they thought they were supporting before.
51:25That's right.
51:26It's going to take more selling.
51:28I wonder if your problem, of course, would be getting labor support.
51:32You know, you've got Rutherford, maybe this other fellow, but I don't know, Woodcock.
51:37Keep in mind, I know Woodcock well.
51:41As a matter of fact, Woodcock was on our board of directors, fighting for labor.
51:48They were fighting for the action.
51:51But I think that there's a need for it.
51:52I think that the problem, I think you could solve it.
51:56The question I would have is whether you could get any of the support from the kind of folks
52:04I mean, you don't have the time.
52:05There are people that support the urban coalition.
52:06There are people that support common cause.
52:09There are people of good heart, idealistic people, but who are frustrated as hell because nothing ever happened.
52:16That's right.
52:16That's right.
52:17You and I go and talk to all these groups, and we tell them they're great, but the rest of you believe in them.
52:23Damn it.
52:24I don't mean that.
52:25Something does happen, but never enough.
52:27Now, this is what you need to do.
52:29I think what I've asked you to do is to try it out on some people.
52:35I don't know, some people that you are accomplished in, so you can keep them in your shop.
52:38I wouldn't try it out.
52:40I wouldn't try it out on them.
52:42Of course, there's a danger in that, to your right.
52:45I think rather than that you were going to do it, I would say, what would you think?
52:49Does the country need something?
52:51You might just sit down with them.
52:56They know what you're doing.
52:57I find that you talk to them one or two at a time.
53:00And so I have nervous discussions.
53:02You could do it with them.
53:06A lot of good guys around, but I wouldn't try.
53:10I agree.
53:11You almost have to be at the point where you're ready to full-blown plunge into it and take a chance.
53:20But on the other hand, what you ought to be able to do now is to figure out what you would do.
53:23Let us suppose you decided you were going to do it after the election, as the case might be, and so forth.
53:30And then you can say, all right, as we'll say, in November 2015 or something, so that we can get some input of the new administration, start things, help and control it, and so forth.
53:42We're going to launch this base.
53:44If you're going to do that, you should have your clients match your work.
53:47That's right.
53:48all in your own mind.
53:49That's right.
53:50Wham!
53:51One thing I would do is, Gary, I would needless to say, you will do this, but be sure that the interests of women now have five levels.
53:58You've got to have women in the same level as yourself.
54:01The women should be there.
54:03The races should be represented.
54:04That's right.
54:05But the main thing is to have at the top.
54:07And youth.
54:08Have at the top.
54:09You don't, of course.
54:10And the citizens.
54:11Have at the top.
54:13keep tight control of yourself, and have, and a superb staff, that's the thing, no question.
54:19You're a citizen, but don't you do all the damn work.
54:21If you could have a tight, good staff here,
54:25There's a need for it, certainly, in this country.
54:29It gives people who want to do good, it's like the volunteering group.
54:33People who want to do good have got to have a chance to do good.
54:36That's right.
54:37In this case, you're down with some concrete things.
54:39I think that was common cause.
54:40Another thing, he went off on this business of campaign contributions.
54:45Well, not for God's sakes.
54:46First of all, the Congress was dealing with it.
54:48That's right.
54:49That's right.
54:50Second, what the hell is going to fit into the common cause?
54:52Who contributed to this?
54:53You know what I mean?
54:56It's a good idea.
54:57Everybody ought to put it all out.
55:00But you know, I think those are the basic issues.
55:05you really have to go through this process of letting a broad group participate in that.
55:10What we did was to create local units all over, and we let those local units convene meetings where they discussed what they thought the issues were, and then they sent in their recommendations to the central organization.
55:24And on the basis of what they were saying and what we were supplying information on,
55:30Why?
55:31There was really a genuine consensus there.
55:34Those were the real issues.
55:35Sure.
55:35The successful idea, it must have many fathers.
55:38There's really always only one.
55:40That's right.
55:40It must have many.
55:42That's right.
55:43That's right.
55:44That's right.
55:45That's right.
55:46That's right.
56:13Well, it's a damn good idea.
56:15I'd say that, rather than several, you ought to maybe try to, if I could just suggest something, pick one person that you have an utter confidence in, if there is any.
56:27That's right.
56:27I have very few.
56:29But you know what I mean.
56:30A better company to talk to.
56:31You've got to keep his damn mouth shut.
56:33That's right.
56:33That's the hard way to think of this idea.
56:36They're different, but...
56:38But don't let anybody completely get out, because if they say, well, George Romney's up to something, or he's going to do this and that, then it undercuts my effectiveness.
56:51It undercuts your effectiveness.
56:53And look, really, I feel I'm dealing with about as critical as it must be.
56:59I don't raise this because of any... You have enough to do.
57:02I know what you're saying.
57:04I'm talking about...
57:06and so forth, but the thing about it is that you, as I've told several of the fellows around here,
57:14The great capacity that you have, this is not said in derogation of the other members of our cabinet.
57:20All of them are fine, decent men.
57:24But you're an advocate.
57:25You always have been.
57:26You're a salesman.
57:27Everybody says that.
57:28You can go around and you can ring the changes.
57:30You can make the eagles scream.
57:32And it takes that to make this sort of thing go.
57:34That's right.
57:35And if you could get a superb operator, if you could get a
57:42You've got a guy, say, with Kissinger's organizational ability to be the chief of staff.
57:46That'd be great.
57:49You know, at the domestic level, you must be a guy like that.
57:53And then you've got a fellow that you can depend upon, and you just bring in the sheets, let him set them up for you.
58:07Because you'd have a mark.
58:10It's a matter of fact.
58:13It's too bad that Gardner screwed up the cause.
58:17That would be the ideal organization.
58:19That's right.
58:19It's got the right name.
58:22That's right.
58:28He's too far gone now, I suppose.
58:31He's still there.
58:32He's still there.
58:33It may not be.
58:35But again, I think the timing for this is later.
58:39Later.
58:39I agree.
58:41But he threw it out.
58:42He threw it out.
58:43As a matter of fact, I went over and talked to America.
58:46Gardner had been overseeing these several times.
58:50And I told him the Citizen of Michigan experience.
58:54I told him that he ought to take the time to canvass his members and involve them in determining what issues.
59:00And I said, don't take more than two or three issues.
59:03Because you can't scan in your effort.
59:07And you've got to identify issues where there's consensus.
59:11Because the minute you have disagreement,
59:16you become ineffective.
59:18The attention focuses on the controversy, not on the areas of agreement.
59:22So literally, you have to limit the effort to those areas where there is broad agreement that this is the real issue, that these are all the solutions, or this is the solution, and then you've got to work on that.
59:36Those one or two things.
59:41I'll appreciate you taking a look at them.
59:44I will.
59:45Because I've spelled out the name.
59:46I've spelled out everything that happens in the election.
59:49You ought to do something like this anyway.
59:53I've spelled out this talk.
59:56In this talk.
59:56The whole concept.
59:58The one I never delivered.
1:00:02The one I never delivered.
1:00:06Is it?
1:00:06Well, I'll sure do it.
1:00:08Okay.
1:00:09Thank you very much.
1:01:29This voluntary action piece can't come here.
1:01:31Oh, I know.
1:01:31I think this man, he's a hell of a good man.
1:01:34Now, he's got sales to get, though.
1:01:35Yeah, that's right.
1:01:36And that's also his country because it's right.
1:01:38That's right.
1:01:38And the people want to participate.
1:01:41You know, the arts line all over the country on this thing.
1:01:46I know.
1:01:47She needs to conquer this atmosphere.
1:01:49Yeah.
1:01:49Well, that's about it.
1:01:51Thank you.
1:01:51Thank you.

Nixon, Romney & Sanchez on Revenue sharing and Urban housing policy

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