Conversation 678-004

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

It's Bronwyn and Jane and Bronwyn, please.

I'm wondering if you have any further comments or any potential statements or anything like that.

Can I get to work on that?

No point in you getting into it at this point because there's so many bits and pieces that have got to be pulled together.

John Erleman is going over to talk to Mitchell now.

And I've actually been standing by the line for the rest of the night, so I'll just go ahead.

John's going to talk to Mitchell and we've got Colson and Wally Johnson.

We're going to use Wally Johnson as the guy to run this thing.

The problem is to get it out of the Klein-Beans-Mitchell hands and that won't be a problem to do because they've been turning here for advice anyway that there hasn't been a focal point.

There have been a number of people going different directions and trying to figure out what ought to be done.

They're going to pull them together and use Ehrlichman to ride

on to give it a stroke because if they need to have any problems with Mitchell and so on.

But Wally Johnson basically is going to pull us together, pull some working behind the scenes with him because we don't want him to get even appeared at Keokuhon at all, if he can, right?

Because they have, they have confidence in Johnson because he worked in the Reckless Matters, right?

And then we pick up Mohler and Sapphire and

who they have now working close to his office as a press guy and who is close to the whole justice thing and can do a hell of a good job of working on the external story side of it.

So they've got a group going, they're going to go to work right away on the Mitchell statement idea, which Mitchell they don't think will testify for a couple days.

They think they're going to play a game up there now.

just keep stalling him, running Jack Anderson and all that.

This Deah Beard, the doctor's not safe.

Her doctor did us a good job today, as he was supposed to, they say.

Was he with her?

He was with her when she met with Drew Pearson's guy.

Yes, and he's indeed her.

The thing in a sense is that she didn't have this meeting with Mitchell that she claims to have and all that, but she just stopped for a few minutes at a party, moving nuns.

A little bit of some case questions.

I was at that party one year.

It was horrible.

Yeah.

And I remember Mitchell had no chance to talk to her.

Of course, they all ate lunch, but she was probably 10 tables away from her.

Well, I get that.

Did you have...

Gleason did not come up and Colson and our guys are kind of concerned about the Gleason involvement because he is a lobbyist for ITT.

And has been peddling himself through to then through Dita Beard as a as a White House contact and you know they have

And he was involved apparently in, or they claim he was, in talking with Timmons and Dennett on the arrangements of, regarding San Diego and the construction business and all that sort of stuff.

All of these people have to leave unless there is no time.

Roe was the highest, and he was on 32nd and something.

If you remember, my very question is this.

There was this woman, Peter Beard, the one who once told me, I remember in 69, I have almost graphic memory of this, at one of those Republican dinner, they had me rushing around on the tables and shaking hands with each one, that she was with Louie Nunn or something.

I know who you're talking about, but I think you must be talking about 68 when you came down here during the campaign.

Because that's the time you came back up to New York and John Whitaker came with you.

You came back up to New York and said it was practically being mauled.

I don't think since you've been in office they've had you go to each table.

Yeah, they did.

I remember the first one was at the Washington Hilton.

Yeah, they did.

And they didn't have a mid-table, and the president got on it.

You were there, too.

You came back.

But I thought we left that night and went somewhere.

We did.

After the dinner, I got on a helicopter.

I didn't go to the dinner.

I didn't.

I kept getting on the helicopter and saying how terrible it was.

It was terrible.

Yeah.

Well, Peter Beard is that four-letter word secretary of Ted Rogers during the 60 campaign, you know.

They haven't done that up yet.

I don't even know if I've met him on the street.

Ted Rogers.

And all the fellas, she was working at any conference marches.

Ever.

And that was before people used as many four-letter words.

But you know, today now they're saying that her doctor said that she wouldn't know because she mixes too many tranquilizers with alcohol.

And she has said she has no recollection of the memo.

Today, didn't she wrote a note?

Did you see it?

She probably did.

No, Mitchell had a theory that she did, but Wally Johnson says that it's... My view is that she wrote it, but did the typical thing.

She goes and says that she talked to Mitchell.

I don't know what happened to that.

The derby, you were at that derby.

She said she had a three-hour lunch.

She said, no, I wasn't with Mitchell.

Well, the point is, it was, you know, Louie Hunt's luncheon.

It was a breakfast.

It was a derby day or something.

There were 300 people there.

Well, and the Mitchells arrived so late for that morning.

That's what she's talking about.

We were on our way to the derby when the Mitchells arrived at that thing, and it was called the Governor's Breakfast.

And the Mitchells couldn't have been there.

That's apparently the thing she was talking about.

But the doctor who played that for us, too, she saw her doctors, and it pretty much shot that down.

I had this thing today.

I know her because I remember either that night or the 68th night, somebody pushed me out there.

That means she came up, or Louie Nutbrower, I think, said, you know, this is a great person.

She said I was supposed to know her as a visitor.

And I could not remember at all.

I mean, I couldn't, and that was it.

Well, I think she, from the pictures, now I haven't seen her until 60, but from the pictures, she looked heavy.

She was skinny at 60, wasn't she?

Yeah.

And so roving that she was funny.

She was a standing joke, because she cut loose, you know, and then the ropes were out.

That was before people used to come along and see her.

Well, I didn't have that.

My recollection was awful for two years.

It might have been that, but I'm sure that it was...

But it may well have been that, because she was in the lobby at the beach.

And she brought her up and said she's a great monetarist.

Maybe Leigh Nunn.

Leigh Nunn sold more tickets than anybody.

Well, she did.

She worked for Leigh Nunn.

That came up.

Was that worth it, too?

It was probably Leigh Nunn.

In this ticket-selling business.

Yeah.

So that may have been where you started.

Was she working for that before, or was she fortunately with ITT, apparently?

Or maybe while.

She's a lobbyist.

She probably... Well, she had every right to do that.

She said that she...

But that's who it was.

Somebody brought me to her...

In 69.

That's the only time I ever did it was at Ann Tables in San Todd.

Well, it's been 68.

Well, 68.

But no, but I've made a sense of being present.

Yeah, but we knocked it off after that.

That's right.

Because it's a bad thing.

But the only thing that came close to what I did was probably last year's PR.

She's obviously cookie.

She always went a little bit odd because of all this.

All these lobbies take any kind of an incident.

That's why you've got to watch around here, see them having a man, being nice to them, anything.

Playing golf with them, beating them on a course when they're there.

They'll say, thank God I didn't play golf with them.

Thank God, because if you did, they'd say, I played golf with them.

I've heard more people say they played golf with me, and I've never seen them on the golf course.

Really?

That's the truth?

Well, they were on the course maybe at the same time, ahead or behind me.

They saw you, or you see that she went through the locker room, or she's basically a name-dropping pusher.

I hadn't seen this, I guess it was the first week when we came back, and my papers hadn't started yet.

So Jim Bassett was in town and called, and he said, what do you think of that old...

tough top sergeant in that crazy memo or something, and I didn't know what he was talking about.

She was bigger than Ted, too, wasn't she?

Big, big woman.

She was tall, but she was sort of thin.

But now she's heavy.

Oh, she was just terrible.

She boxed everyone around the processor at all, I think.

Is that right?

Now the mystery's up.

I didn't realize it was 60, but I remember distinctly Lou or Lee Nunn telling me she sold a lot of tickets, and I better be forgotten.

That must be the one.

But that could have been 68 or 59, because she would be more apt to sell tickets then than she was before, because when she was working in 60, she wouldn't have had time to be out selling them.

It's about what she ever wants.

That's fine.

And I don't think she's...

They're not planning that, you know?

I don't remember anything.

It's only that she talked to Mitchell at Clandestine.

Or did she talk to Clandestine at Clandestine?

And to Louie Nunn.

And Louie Nunn said that, you know, we'll get it all fixed up.

Of course he would say that.

He always does.

They always do, too.

Any politicians look, I'll fix them.

I'll work on them.

I'll speak to them.

And incidentally, it's not Bob Marion.

It's William Marion, who is the vice president of IT&T here in Washington.

Bob Marion has nothing to do with this.

As good as the mystery office.

I haven't seen her in any other country.

I haven't seen her in any

Well, I just wanted you to know that we're all hanging out over here, and we know this is a great shot for you.

You're a strong girl, and I'm sure anybody that can crush you as low as the snows of New Hampshire will be able to survive this.

Oh, yeah, good boy.

Isn't that great?

Great.

Well, he's having a fine record there.

And we just want you to know that we feel we've lost one of our own family.

But thank heaven we got you with him, and that's the way he wants you to be now.

So you just keep your spirit up, huh?

Sure.

Well, I'll tell you, we were having, John and I were talking, John and Tom and I were talking about it a couple weeks ago, and he was saying what a fine call he was, and we all felt that way.

After all, he's in a better place.

Oh, okay, yeah.

They were always... Oh, boy, I remember her now.

They just drank up.

She was the most insane.

She brought Ted out.

Poor little Ted, a little Teddy, came wandering in, and she'd just chew him out.

Not getting his dictation done on time.

I remember when I saw her, she said, You don't remember me.

And I did.

And that was it.

I don't know what this man was about, and that was it.

She was Ted Rogers, Secretary.

Peter Beard.

Strangely, she didn't have any particular occasion to see much of her during the campaign.

I never saw her at all.

You weren't around there.

I never saw her at all.

I saw her today.

She was out of the campaign.

Now, maybe you might make a lot of a bad thing if you can, because it's not right to put him up against these sharpies.

Or is that agreed?

Yes.

I don't know what you can do to the protection, but except to have Mitchell make the statement.

That's the key, and that's what Johnson talked to him about, and these guys are working on getting all the facts put together and putting something down.

Where does it leave me with regard to my Thursday operation?

Well, if we get a statement out, then you use it.

If not, Mitchell may be up on the hill by Thursday.

If not, I don't know.

I think we can work out a...

I can answer for you if they can, but anyway.

Well, anyway, what we could do, I could push a Thursday operation in front of you if necessary.

Friday at 11, you know, go to Lillard.

You know what I mean?

That would be worth doing.

It would be worth getting that done.

It might be worth you going on the same day that you go to the overriding.

Well, no, you want Mitchell's testimony to run, yes.

Well, I want to be able to refer to it.

I did not want to have to answer any questions on this.

There was pretty general agreement that we ought to get a Mitchell statement out without waiting for Mitchell's testimony.

And if Michigan releases a statement, even though he's falsely accused, he can refer to his statement in his testimony.

They say, they think now this kennel is going to be a week, apparently, before the doctor will even let a committee staff person talk to her.

And it'll be somewhat longer than that, of course, before she's going to come out and be able to hang out around that much time.

So they're going to hang him until then.

And Wally Johnson's view is that they'll probably just tie him up in the committee and forget about him.

Not ever.

We'll just never get around to him.

It's just a real chance of that.

They won't vote him down.

What do you believe in this act?

The immediate conclusion is that you should withdraw it and withdraw his name.

But nobody else seems to feel that way.

John surprised me with his political... Charlie Johnson came right back and said, then you're admitting guilt when there is guilt, which just doesn't make any sense at all.

And not just one needs guilt.

John's guilt was different about this.

It's because of other reasons.

He didn't even have a good sense this morning when I gave him the chance.

He said, well, you felt he was in trouble for other reasons.

Which he did, you know.

He said we're going to stop it because of repression.

Yeah, right.

The other guys also are not so sure that the climbing was so long.

Going through this hearing, they think that all this would have happened regardless of where I'm at.

In a way, it looks better for him to have asked for it and for them to have done it.

I can't see how they're going to leave the contact thing if they really don't like it.

I'm sure he knows more about it than I do.

He's certainly talking like...

That was a problem I had with the Attorney General for all that time, the acting Attorney General.

Then you get to the PR thing of every time you report on anything he does, you say acting Attorney General Clingens, who has not been confirmed because of the IT&T thing.

Do we have any PR people to introduce?

put it in context, get out stories and all the rest of it.

All the people we got around here, I got it out of the impossible.

Don't you think so?

I mean, just the fact that, oh, I guess nobody wants to hear the truth.

The fact of what the hell the contribution was, the fact that the settlement by DMT was no bonanza.

Turns out,

That's right.

And that, they've gotten that story out, but not very strongly, and obviously it gets, you know, held her over.

And they've gotten the story out that, on the, on the, uh, contribution thing, but that also, I don't know.

On the Flanagan thing, I think I'll get that out, but, uh, Flanagan's...

I don't know what the hell he would do that for.

I mean, that, that I can't quite figure out as to...

How many would have been involved in, to that extent, saying, look, I'll get you a man to check if it looks as if it's his ass?

I guess you were.

What?

He announced today that he was going to start that tomorrow.

And he's starting tomorrow.

Interesting thing about your polls now, it seems to me, was the, was the, it seems to me, around our audience, it was undecided.

Not on the approval, it's lower.

No.

No, excuse me, it's all 13.

All right, there's more.

But it's all from the disapproval to undecided.

I think that's good.

I mean, you're, in other words, the anti-mixing people are a little bit shaken in their oppositions.

See, when you have an increase of 80% of the new disapproval, and an increase of 5% of the new approval, it's a 3 on the other side, from 10 to 13.

It does spot the range.

It always runs around 12.

It's 50.

Would you say it was 26% as a group?

28.

28% now.

That is 13.

59, 28, 13.

And it was 54, 36, 10.

It's down 8 points now.

That's the goal of the trip.

I think it also is an indication, because we're never going to be at a better level than this.

It's an indication that that's probably our motto.

I mean, the way the country is divided, the lack of confidence in government, and all that sort of thing.

Not necessarily the optimal unapproval of that.

I think it is.

You'll be out this year, but that'll be down next month.

But you're undecided.

It seems to me you've got a lot of experience.

If we could stay in the range of 54 to 5, that's pretty good.

We might get much lower than that.

Well, but 59 with 13 undecided, you've got to allocate the undecided.

Well, yeah, but you don't do that on each month.

Okay, but they have to at some point.

It can't say 5928.

Yes.

We've now just about reached the level that we were immediately after the peace speech in 70.

I remember we made the peace speech in Gallup in 1959, the Iron Arms.

In fact, that's a study from 1959.

But we're right, this is where we were in January of 1971.

Right.

Which is the same thing.

We came before us.

After things simmered down after the election.

And there was a, it went down a little, then it went back up instead of, but they had exactly that in 59-28.

with exactly the same figures.

A lot of us cost us 10 points that we never picked up until now.

And that's the secret of it.

Yes, sir.

Last time, it wasn't that much.

But then in 47, the guy and all of them stayed down there.

You know, well, I mean, in Gallup, we never were at 59.

Oh, 6, 56, 49, 7.

Yeah, it was supposed to be 7.

I don't know if it's a bad thing.

comment, question, you're talking, comment at all, or whatever else you want to do.

Yeah.

3 o'clock tomorrow, he's testifying in the morning.

Except for the description.

And he thinks you should meet with Sonnet and Schultz and him.

And says he has no need to meet with you alone, first or after, unless you want to.

He's suggesting the full group, and then if you want to spend any time with them afterwards, you can.

Well, now, could you or Brody Winters, the buddy, talk to him a little?

I've got Henry on salve to talk to him about the trip.

We're coming.

Yes, of course.

He's having lunch with him.

He's gone.

Then it is.

Good.

Constantly ride that, now, as I told you.

Be sure to hurry.

Cross this with him.

Yes, I mean, I said, get over there and trade with him.

Talk to the assholes that are there.

Well, you start your three o'clockers tomorrow.

Yes, sir.

Not a lot of them thought it was a good idea.

And the PMs were a little...

I told them 11 o'clock, we'd start regularly at 11 o'clock.

And that Jerry would be there to give the basic announcements.

And when we had messages to conduct those briefings, release that information.

that I would brief at 3 o'clock every day and that would allow me time to participate in, you know, the meetings and so forth and have more time to discuss matters with the President before briefing to him sometime because of your heavy schedule in the mornings and so forth.

I don't have time.

So they thought it was a generally good idea to experiment.

This is the first time that the

The briefing schedule has been changed in a number of years.

As a matter of fact, the wires moved the story up.

Really?

Yeah.

They didn't move it negative?

No, no.

They just moved it as a fact.

For the first time in a number of years, it said the White House announced today that the briefings would be changed with the time.

Well, are they marked as a briefing, too?

Oh, yes.

11 o'clock, 4 o'clock, 3 o'clock.

I put it on the basis that we briefed at about 1 o'clock.

It was a good time today.

because of the meetings and the McElroy thing.

And I said, we'll do this for several reasons.

I said, once you guys, you'll have to wait around for a couple hours every day.

And I said, I'll just hand it over to you.

And if you're getting a little lunch at the census seat, come over for lunch.

So I asked, tell you.

I'm telling you, you're probably going to do good.

No, I was asked today about it and I said,

The question came, is the president involved or following the ITT thing?

And I said, I just don't have any comment from here on that subject.

No one followed up on it.

You know, I mean, it's obvious.

Is the president following it?

They're just looking for a White House quote.

If I would have said that, then they would have had a White House quote.

That's right.

I don't think that's just a good way to, you know, they need to have a little chance.

I think that's a good idea.

No, but I think the press conference on Thursday would be good.

It'd catch them off balance.

You know, and it'd be a good way to...

Pretty much so.

Sure it is.

I had deliberately, in order to mislead the people that told me, but first, for your information, I shouldn't have done that.

Well, I've left it loose.

I was talking to Bob before.

They asked about whether or not it would be, if you were delaying your decision until after the Florida primary.

I said, first of all, I took on the delay.

I said the president was doing exactly what he said he would do before trying to redo a very difficult problem.

Then I said, what's the Florida primary?

Because I didn't want to address the Florida primary.

And the guy said, well, next Tuesday.

So I answered the question, and I said, well, I don't think the president will have completed the extensive, reviewing the extensive material he's asked for by next Tuesday.

But I didn't, well, so be it.

No, no, no, no, I just...

Well that was really about it.

I was asked about the story that they moved on UPI, that you were moving toward the moratorium.

and away from the constitutional amendment.

It's unbelievable.

It moved before the meeting.

Yeah, it moved before your meeting.

But I made the point, I made the point, I said that...

I made the point that I was concerned about that because they were criss-crossing me.

It's not a 30-year buck, though.

Goddamn bricks.

No wonder he didn't recommend to talk about anything.

No wonder.

I kept your options open.

I said the President has not made a decision on this.

He emphasized that in the meeting this morning.

He's seeking the recommendation and viewpoints from all, the various viewpoints.

Yes, sir.

It's almost done.

I bet you had asked for their recommendations and their thinking.

And I bet you had met with the Congressman before.

I bet you had asked for the facts and .

I'm not too concerned about the Florida primary question on this.

All right.

In other words, whether or not it's out before or after the Florida primary.

I didn't mean to give a point there.

I think we're overreacting to that.

I mean, the Florida primary is a fact.

They're going to vote on it.

One thing about it, especially since John and Dr. Disney were all working on that lawsuit, is they're going to make a vote in the straw vote and be overwhelming against it.

And they'll say, in the wake of a huge referendum in Florida, Nixon says, stop busing them.

And that's John Erickson's argument.

Well, if you don't do that, they'll write the press anticipating it.

Anyone that's going to write that.

All right.

Well, then they would claim that you... Then they would claim that you're doing it to influence Florida Prisoners.

For 8 p.m.

Your decision was made before the primary results were in and announced that it was not too effective.

Other side is possible.

You may be able to make that deadline.

It's worth going.

You have to say that you're doing it on that time for that reason.

So it's not to influence or be influenced by the Florida primary.

Or it's such a major issue.

In order to take it out of that context, you're...

But what is the problem?

I agree with you.

It does appear that we're pretty well focused on the Florida primary.

What's the matter with being influenced by the Florida primary?

There's another point, too.

In other words, the president is approaching a serious problem because it has nationwide concern.

That's why he is studying it.

That's why he's examining it.

Because people in the country don't think that kids should be bused in this massive little way.

So the people...

The Friday's not the best.

The Friday's a good day.

You still have the same television.

On the other hand, it's not as intelligent as I am, so it could be.

This is basically your living statement, which you want to carry.

Well, how do you want your papers?

Aren't they bad right there?

Or would you prefer to have them as Sunday papers?

Do you want them on television?

What do you want?

Well, what day next week would you prefer?

Let me ask you that.

It's like...

I don't think it should be before the Florida primary.

No, I don't either.

It looks like they would even think that I was trying to help mine go up against Maddox.

I don't think we should play out in this area.

See, in doing it today at the Florida primary, you do run the risk of something like this, of it breaking.

I think it would be very difficult to barter the hole.

Okay, did you move on it the first thing the next morning?

making it clear the decision had already been made, but was held up until after the primary in order to avoid... You look kind of odd, releasing something you need to contemplate.

No, I think you're right.

I think what you would say is that the president has reached a decision he can't take, and he's not preparing the decision to spiral, but it will be so that it will not have any influence on the Florida primary.

He will issue it after the primary is over on Wednesday.

How's that sound to you?

You bet.

That's not very good.

That's a little less non-natural.

Right here?

Yes, but I'd like to...

All right, fine.

We'll think of that.

That's better.

And I think we're leaving a little more gaps on Thursday.

Or leaving, I think either doing it that way or leaving a little more gaps in the joint primary in the date of release.

Wait until Wednesday or Thursday.

Until Friday, perhaps.

Friday?

Yeah.

There'll be more gaps.

Yeah, but announcing before that.

You're announcing before that.

If I get work done for the weekend, I'll try to do it on Thursday.

Before you see him, I don't want to bother you, but I should tell you that the Chinese have called us that they have an urgent message to give us, which can only be delivered by their ambassador.

So I have to send somebody else up there.

And the North Vietnamese have asked to see us almost concurrently.

I'm really very worried that this public linking of Taiwan to Vietnam, which we promised them we wouldn't do, which stayed dead on Thursday.

Which one stayed dead?

You know, the State Department spokesman said that the 6,000 troops that Vietnam united

You hinted at it.

Yes, I hinted at it.

I was responsible.

But they didn't... Ewell wasn't picked up.

Ewell was repeated by Ewell Scott in a sort of a mushy way.

But we'll have to see.

But it makes it important now that we don't add salt to the wounds and let...

I think you should just say to them that I've repeated... You know what I said to them.

You repeat that as your...

But I wouldn't say another quote he can give.

Well, that's why I wondered whether we should see him.

Well, the way things were at noon... Well, whatever damage has been done has been done, and we'll find out in the message.

It may simply be that they're telling that it's a funny coincidence.

But...

But they told us, they told me that when I put in the trade, the sanctions diminished, that it couldn't be linked to Vietnam.

It may be, I also sent him a message that you requested that we wanted to announce the parish contact.

It may seem to be a funny coincidence, or maybe they're asking.

Well, let me say you can't worry about everything.

Okay.

No, no, it's at the very same level at which they want to deliver it, that concern.

Yeah?

But when do you have to get it?

You'll get it at 7.

Tonight?

Yeah.

And the others, the others were going to deliver theirs at 8, daytime, 8.30, and when we got there, they said it isn't 8.30, it's 10.30.

But the other, the North Vietnamese message will happen in another hour and a half.

There's nothing worrying about it now.

And I wasn't going to tell you if you hadn't seen this fellow until after we had the message.

I heard if you would not see him... No, no, I think that would be too bad now.

I think it's important... Why not just not sit down when he's here?

No, I'd sit down for ten minutes.

He put off his departure, he tells me.

Just give him your regards and say we have...

We hope so.

But even if it isn't real... Of course, we're trying our damn level best, as you know.

Oh, God.

I mean, you couldn't... No, I haven't said one word, except that we... That, of course, unfortunately, they could have...

But the state then puts it out indirectly.

Their statement was made public, wasn't it?

Their statement was on the record.

Yours was a quotation from Scott in a sort of rapid way.

And...

But I don't want to do this injustice.

It couldn't be, it might not be that.

But, uh... Well, let me say this.

Keep our balance.

I mean, coming this long road with us, and our going that long road with them.

I'm not so worried about that.

They're not going to say discontinue relations?

Oh, no, that should, surely not.

But what they may do is to, it may be another delay in the Vietnam talk.

That's the thing that worries me more.

The Chinese would be doing that.

But you hear it from them, and that's the hell.

I don't care what we hear from the goddamn Vietnamese.

I've never felt that everyone's doing anything anyway.

But the...

I mean, we hold it to the best.

But what I mean is, if you don't, you're not getting much.

Well, I think what the Chinese may do is present us a blast to the effect that they had always said Taiwan and Vietnam were not related, and that they want to officially state it.

that our interpretation of something or other.

Well, that would be... Well, it depends how far they carry it.

Yeah.

And we've confirmed that we... As long as they keep it in a secret channel, we can live with it.

We've confirmed that that is our understanding, too, and that this public statement that was made was not on the rise.

Right.

That was an interpretation by a senator and the other... Yeah.

Of course, Skunk's coming here.

But Scott can handle it.

It's important that... No, he said no.

Well, if we get a note, that's one reason.

They said we could pick it up any time before five tomorrow evening.

As long as we get...

If we get it, I'll just tell Rogers and send him the note if it's a blast so that he can guard himself in his press conference.

That wouldn't hurt.

Yeah, I'll bring her back.

Sure, I'll be around.

I hope for the best.

And don't worry about it.

No, no, I don't worry about it.

But I can repeat this.

I just say, whatever I said, you back up.

Yeah.

Okay.

No picture.

Just Ollie.

Nobody.

Did you tell everyone?

I don't think I, I don't think I can say.

No, no.

Well, how are you?

Nice to see you again.

Yeah.

Sit down.

Thank you.

Sit down.

You too, sir.

Yes.

No, no, no.

Well, Mr. President, I'm going back to Taiwan tomorrow.

I just want to know if there's any message you have for my president.

Very, very open, yes.

And also, if there's anything you want to say.

Well, I think the important thing to first of all,

I noted that when Green was there, Pastor Green was there, that he indicated that he did not want to see him, that he wanted to see Mr. Green.

I think you should know that when we came back, I told Mr. Kissinger to talk to you.

Yes.

And he has talked to you.

I know that he's, of course, I had a record of the conversation I had with Williamson and the slave before I talked to you.

I want you to tell the President that Dr. Kissinger's conversation with you represents my view

I mean, it is an accurate description of what we talked about.

And also, of course, he sent my public statement when I returned, which is the public statement that I made.

But I think the more important thing is that he naturally

and I understand this knowing that Dr. Kissinger sat in on all the talks, and also that Dr. Kissinger had conversations before I got there where no commitments were made.

As a matter of fact, none were made this time, except that the K.A.

expresses that there is, indeed, none to comment the standings.

that he now, through you, and through my authorized visitor, because he can't fly out, of course, that you were able to convey to him the facts of the matter.

I think that's the thing.

Would you agree, Henry, with that?

Because you see, it's important that he not feel that we sent to see him on a matter which is very important to him.

somebody that he didn't feel had the information.

Actually, Greene, we had filled in on the basic message, but Greene sat in, Secretary Strong stood up on him, and he just stood there in an airy manner.

There was no conversation that took place with Joe and I, or a common person.

Very angry, he was not present.

And I authorized him to tell you that

the substance of the whole thing.

So I think if we could have that, that you could convey to him the condition, of course, in my personal regards, if you could convey to him, say, that Dr. Kissinger has agreed to, that these are the actions that are now, of course, all this, you see all sorts of talks about

secret deals and so forth.

You know I covered that in my remarks when I came home.

What that tradition chief told you are the facts.

That's the fact of the matter.

And you should rely on that statement.

If he were to go to Taiwan, he would tell what that tradition chief told you.

That's correct.

I don't think that's true.

Mr. President, we're grateful to you for your long-continued interest in a peaceful settlement in Moscow.

Now, Mr. President, may I say anything?

I mean, did he pledge to renounce force, or propose what he intended to do, and how he came to tackle the problems?

that is something which we're, well, for example, I think it can be said that despite great disagreements, the two things in which President Chong and Joe Maia agree on is about China.

be settled about the as far as the in terms of how to do it and so forth.

I would say that there's no discussion on that.

That is something they don't think is our business, frankly.

Well, except that we put in the

which are very clear, one is we reaffirm our interest in peaceful settlement, which is, after all, of sailing argument.

Then, secondly, we put in the breaks with the prospect of a peaceful settlement in mind.

So if the word, you know your compatriots, the word prospect was not idly chosen,

So the Chinese were very careful about words.

They were not given a carte blanche to launch a military attack on Taiwan, quite the contrary.

What kind of a time frame does this thing have on the event?

None, sir.

None, as a matter of fact.

None, sir.

That was not discussed.

That would be .

In other words, when you say, if you do it now, do it next year.

I mean, it's a .

In fact, what we were trying to do was put everything in that was there.

We knew that on their part, they knew that that was the highest sensitive issue.

They thought it should be covered.

There was no discussion on should we do this now, next year, two years, three years, four years, five years, no time frame.

Now, Mr. President, you're familiar with the history of our relationship with communism for the last 20 years.

You know the situation today that exists better than anybody else in the world.

If you were in my president's shoes, what would you do?

And what would be your advice to my president on how to handle this thing?

I mean...

I hope it's not too much of a... Well, let me say that I...

I would say in the first instance that I would say that I would not raise the question of whether there is a U.S. commandment.

I don't accept that.

Because if you raise the question

enforce, all that you do then is to create this country and also create the BRC.

And it says it, debate it.

We have stated the situation and history.

I understand your concern, but if you raise the question, it will only hurt your own cause.

The second point is that in terms of what he does, what you do with regard to .

i uh i frankly do not have a uh a uh a department i do love that in fact henry and i talked about that way back

And do you have any thoughts on that?

Because it's you I'm talking to.

First of all, as ambassadors, sir, you've got to raise exactly the question.

I don't know.

You understand we're in a delicate position because both governments consider this to be an internal problem.

So I know there are some that say, well, the United States has set in and set up something to bring this on.

Right.

Some say that.

But I told the ambassador, first of all, we made it clear to the...

people in PK.

We call their attention to a phrase in the world report, we're not going to change, I've decided to do something.

So, that means, in effect, they cannot count on us, or they cannot expect us to exercise any pressure on them to negotiate the second one.

Or to find a form.

In the second way, I think we have to be realistic about the prospects.

First, if you ask yourself what would have happened if the Chinese had done to us what they would have done in the East.

Some of the people who now support you in the Democratic Party would have been the first to start organizing peace conferences about our being kind of an old-age military dictator.

I'm just telling you the scenario and really undermining the commitment they would have done to us, what we're doing, and we have not.

And with no deadline at all.

And with no deadline.

Supposing they had played the deadline game with us and used Grimoire, Mathieu, and other things at the level.

Thirdly, in the period ahead, say, four to five years, as I told you when we met, many things can happen.

You are under no pressure to settle.

Mao could disappear.

Zhou could disappear.

Or both could disappear.

So that this is not an issue that we have the impression that we were reversed in any intermediate time frame.

And therefore, it would be a mistake for you to panic or do anything rash.

Well, I would not be belligerent in a third and second consent.

I would not quarrel with our student in the event that there is a connection.

We've made it then, but if you keep racing, all you do, even if it costs us an answer, we can say, well, we've covered that.

But if you keep racing, you're going to force an eventual failure

which would not be in anybody's interest.

You see, as you know, Mr. Baxter, there is a tremendous isolation ceiling developing in this country.

I'm ending hell of a time ending Vietnam in the right way.

And as you know, ending it in the right way is important because if we don't end it in the right way, America will drop in the Pacific, period, because of enormous frustration.

Now, so is it in other things, other things of the, in the,

If the new isolationists in this country get the impression that we're going to become involved in a great conflict because of the events that have happened in many places, in the Philippines, Thailand,

you can have, you can set in motion forces of view that none of us want to set in motion.

It's for that reason that I think that the, I think your foreign minister made a very good statement when he said that he accepted the proposition that the United States, Jesus, the person that made it, his commitment would be kept.

And if it died right now,

So I just started with that question.

The second problem is in regard to how do we resolve it.

Believe me, it would be, I just don't know.

I have no answer to that problem.

And it's about what they didn't ask us.

Right.

They didn't ask us.

You must be thinking about it.

And what ideas you might have, I would say, would be

It's certainly extremely interesting, but we are not willing to try to intervene and force it either way.

I think that's the proposition, and I think that's a very successful statement that we have opposed to the use of votes.

Oh, and that's a different matter.

No, but I mean intervening to force a diesel settlement.

You see, that's the difference.

Like, by this point, this really Arab thing where we are intending to try to broker it, you know.

Here, we are not trying to broker it.

That's the difference that I think you should have in mind.

Now, where it goes from here, I think, has to develop over the period of time.

I wouldn't be in that.

There's no obligation to do anything.

And there's no obligation.

I mean, first of all, everything we said we stated unilaterally, not as an undertaking to the PRC.

There's no treaty.

Secondly, it's very carefully drafted if you read it carefully.

And it's all unilaterally stated.

We just, we agree to disagree.

You see?

Because their position on Taiwan, you know, stated last night, all about as hard as it has been in Eastern Vietnam, because they didn't use the force line.

They didn't use...

They didn't attack the defense treaty.

And all of this is like nuance.

They said Taiwan is a province of China, and we didn't say that.

We said a part of China.

I wrote that.

I used the word part.

Part.

Well, that's the word.

Well, I say I do.

No, no, no, no.

No, I mean, they agree with me.

I mean, I say they agree with me, not object to it.

It's the, it depends on where you are as to what you say profits your parties.

Well, it's slightly less than we took one or two.

Well, what profits indicates a downgrade to Americans?

Yeah, I don't think it would indicate

Now, where it goes from here, I think it has to develop over a period of time.

I wouldn't be in, I wouldn't be in, I wouldn't be in Vanity, I wouldn't be in 23rd or 23rd.

That's what I'm trying to do.

There's no obligation to do anything.

There's no obligation.

I mean, first of all, everything we said, we stated unilaterally, not as an undertaking to the PRC.

There's no treaty.

Secondly, it's very carefully drafted, if you read it.

Yes, carefully.

And there may be, uh, we don't have an application for that.

It's unilateral, part two.

You see, both sides, you see, the Taiwan section, as well as the Korean section, the Japanese section, the South Korean section, it's all unilaterally stated.

We just, we agree to disagree.

You see.

Because their position on Taiwan, you know, stated last night, all about as hard as it has been, interestingly enough, because they didn't use the force line.

They didn't attack the defense treaty.

And although there's a slight nuance, they said Taiwan is a province of China, and we didn't say that.

We said a part of China.

I wrote that.

I used the word part.

Part.

Well, that's the word.

Well, I can say I did.

No, no, no, no.

No, I mean, they agree with me.

I mean, they say they agree with me, but they're not objective.

Of course, it's the, uh, it depends on where you are as to what you say about what's your part, isn't it?

Well, it's a slightly less, we just wanted to...

What province indicates a downgrade to Americans.

It would not indicate that to a Chinese because you think the whole country is being province, province, province.

But in our country, the word province, in most of them, it means a lower level, you see, not a people level.

Any personal word for my president?

By all means, to him and to Madam John, my best wishes for their health.

I'm amazed when I get reports from the vice president and other friends who go out there and they say he's just as sharp as a jack.

I've always been impressed with that.

And I wish him good health.

And we know this is a painful time, and we know that this trip was a very difficult thing for him.

We had to take a long view of it, but the great forces that are operating here also recognize that we're looking at a long view.

peaceful resolution of these problems.

And we may be able to be more effective if we're talking to the PRC than if we're not talking to them.

That's really the philosophy that we're talking about, is that peaceful resolution is important.

In the event that we have the use of force in any part of the world, any part of Asia, and even the Vietnam experience,

It may be, you know what I would do if I were here, but I'm a little bit tough in the sun.

But I would have serious doubts what other presidents might do.

That's the real problem, you see.

So the peaceful resolution, we think, is very, very important.

And that's what this trip is about.

But I don't have any time.

But in terms of both my very best wishes and the...

the continued friendship of the tribe.

Oh, absolutely.

Our friendship, personal, without a question, as well as the main action.

We have a dream, but we also have a personal friendship.

They know that.

Huh?

You've got a long journey ahead of you.

Yes, sir.

I hope you are not going to stop for a while.

I have a boy here who needs a bottle.

Uh, not having a way out, but on the way back, I may stop for a while.

Are you going to have a chance?

You almost have.

Thank you, sir.

That's sharp.

That's good.

When are you coming back?

Oh, two weeks.

Two weeks.

That's good.

When you come back, we'll get you to talk to Henry.

And let me say that in the future, if you know why, I've got a pretty heavy domestic issue with you.

I don't know, but I've always been a scary friend.

But in the future, you can feel confident that if you talk to Henry, you're getting it straight from me.

I'll back up.

Will you come to me?

And I don't have everybody see him either.

No, seriously.

I want you to do that.

And what he told you, he gave you a full report of everything that I put on OKRM, as he knows, and so on.

So you can take that and say, my best wishes, and have a good lesson.

Give him my best wishes.

And also to the, that's me.

Dr. Tatum.

Yes, I have two.

I refer to you as the quiet state.

Bye.