Nixon, Shen & Haldeman on ITT antitrust case and John N. Mitchell

1:03:25It's Bronwyn and Jane and Bronwyn, please.
1:03:29I'm wondering if you have any further comments or any potential statements or anything like that.
1:03:40Can I get to work on that?
1:03:43No point in you getting into it at this point because there's so many bits and pieces that have got to be pulled together.
1:03:50John Erleman is going over to talk to Mitchell now.
1:03:53And I've actually been standing by the line for the rest of the night, so I'll just go ahead.
1:04:08John's going to talk to Mitchell and we've got Colson and Wally Johnson.
1:04:26We're going to use Wally Johnson as the guy to run this thing.
1:04:31The problem is to get it out of the Klein-Beans-Mitchell hands and that won't be a problem to do because they've been turning here for advice anyway that there hasn't been a focal point.
1:04:42There have been a number of people going different directions and trying to figure out what ought to be done.
1:04:48They're going to pull them together and use Ehrlichman to ride
1:04:54on to give it a stroke because if they need to have any problems with Mitchell and so on.
1:04:58But Wally Johnson basically is going to pull us together, pull some working behind the scenes with him because we don't want him to get even appeared at Keokuhon at all, if he can, right?
1:05:08Because they have, they have confidence in Johnson because he worked in the Reckless Matters, right?
1:05:13And then we pick up Mohler and Sapphire and
1:05:23who they have now working close to his office as a press guy and who is close to the whole justice thing and can do a hell of a good job of working on the external story side of it.
1:05:38So they've got a group going, they're going to go to work right away on the Mitchell statement idea, which Mitchell they don't think will testify for a couple days.
1:05:49They think they're going to play a game up there now.
1:05:52just keep stalling him, running Jack Anderson and all that.
1:05:59This Deah Beard, the doctor's not safe.
1:06:02Her doctor did us a good job today, as he was supposed to, they say.
1:06:07Was he with her?
1:06:09He was with her when she met with Drew Pearson's guy.
1:06:12Yes, and he's indeed her.
1:06:15The thing in a sense is that she didn't have this meeting with Mitchell that she claims to have and all that, but she just stopped for a few minutes at a party, moving nuns.
1:06:25A little bit of some case questions.
1:06:27I was at that party one year.
1:06:29It was horrible.
1:06:30Yeah.
1:06:30And I remember Mitchell had no chance to talk to her.
1:06:33Of course, they all ate lunch, but she was probably 10 tables away from her.
1:06:38Well, I get that.
1:06:39Did you have...
1:06:42Gleason did not come up and Colson and our guys are kind of concerned about the Gleason involvement because he is a lobbyist for ITT.
1:06:51And has been peddling himself through to then through Dita Beard as a as a White House contact and you know they have
1:07:05And he was involved apparently in, or they claim he was, in talking with Timmons and Dennett on the arrangements of, regarding San Diego and the construction business and all that sort of stuff.
1:07:24All of these people have to leave unless there is no time.
1:07:28Roe was the highest, and he was on 32nd and something.
1:07:33If you remember, my very question is this.
1:07:39There was this woman, Peter Beard, the one who once told me, I remember in 69, I have almost graphic memory of this, at one of those Republican dinner, they had me rushing around on the tables and shaking hands with each one, that she was with Louie Nunn or something.
1:08:03I know who you're talking about, but I think you must be talking about 68 when you came down here during the campaign.
1:08:11Because that's the time you came back up to New York and John Whitaker came with you.
1:08:16You came back up to New York and said it was practically being mauled.
1:08:22I don't think since you've been in office they've had you go to each table.
1:08:24Yeah, they did.
1:08:25I remember the first one was at the Washington Hilton.
1:08:29Yeah, they did.
1:08:30And they didn't have a mid-table, and the president got on it.
1:08:32You were there, too.
1:08:33You came back.
1:08:34But I thought we left that night and went somewhere.
1:08:36We did.
1:08:37After the dinner, I got on a helicopter.
1:08:39I didn't go to the dinner.
1:08:40I didn't.
1:08:40I kept getting on the helicopter and saying how terrible it was.
1:08:43It was terrible.
1:08:44Yeah.
1:08:44Well, Peter Beard is that four-letter word secretary of Ted Rogers during the 60 campaign, you know.
1:08:50They haven't done that up yet.
1:08:52I don't even know if I've met him on the street.
1:08:56Ted Rogers.
1:08:58And all the fellas, she was working at any conference marches.
1:09:07Ever.
1:09:08And that was before people used as many four-letter words.
1:09:12But you know, today now they're saying that her doctor said that she wouldn't know because she mixes too many tranquilizers with alcohol.
1:09:26And she has said she has no recollection of the memo.
1:09:30Today, didn't she wrote a note?
1:09:32Did you see it?
1:09:33She probably did.
1:09:33No, Mitchell had a theory that she did, but Wally Johnson says that it's... My view is that she wrote it, but did the typical thing.
1:09:42She goes and says that she talked to Mitchell.
1:09:44I don't know what happened to that.
1:09:46The derby, you were at that derby.
1:09:48She said she had a three-hour lunch.
1:09:49She said, no, I wasn't with Mitchell.
1:09:50Well, the point is, it was, you know, Louie Hunt's luncheon.
1:09:53It was a breakfast.
1:09:54It was a derby day or something.
1:09:56There were 300 people there.
1:09:58Well, and the Mitchells arrived so late for that morning.
1:10:01That's what she's talking about.
1:10:03We were on our way to the derby when the Mitchells arrived at that thing, and it was called the Governor's Breakfast.
1:10:12And the Mitchells couldn't have been there.
1:10:14That's apparently the thing she was talking about.
1:10:17But the doctor who played that for us, too, she saw her doctors, and it pretty much shot that down.
1:10:23I had this thing today.
1:10:25I know her because I remember either that night or the 68th night, somebody pushed me out there.
1:10:31That means she came up, or Louie Nutbrower, I think, said, you know, this is a great person.
1:10:38She said I was supposed to know her as a visitor.
1:10:40And I could not remember at all.
1:10:43I mean, I couldn't, and that was it.
1:10:44Well, I think she, from the pictures, now I haven't seen her until 60, but from the pictures, she looked heavy.
1:10:50She was skinny at 60, wasn't she?
1:10:53Yeah.
1:10:54And so roving that she was funny.
1:10:55She was a standing joke, because she cut loose, you know, and then the ropes were out.
1:11:00That was before people used to come along and see her.
1:11:04Well, I didn't have that.
1:11:04My recollection was awful for two years.
1:11:08It might have been that, but I'm sure that it was...
1:11:11But it may well have been that, because she was in the lobby at the beach.
1:11:13And she brought her up and said she's a great monetarist.
1:11:18Maybe Leigh Nunn.
1:11:19Leigh Nunn sold more tickets than anybody.
1:11:21Well, she did.
1:11:21She worked for Leigh Nunn.
1:11:22That came up.
1:11:23Was that worth it, too?
1:11:24It was probably Leigh Nunn.
1:11:26In this ticket-selling business.
1:11:28Yeah.
1:11:28So that may have been where you started.
1:11:30Was she working for that before, or was she fortunately with ITT, apparently?
1:11:33Or maybe while.
1:11:34Or maybe while.
1:11:34She's a lobbyist.
1:11:35She probably... Well, she had every right to do that.
1:11:39She said that she...
1:11:40But that's who it was.
1:11:42Somebody brought me to her...
1:11:44In 69.
1:11:44That's the only time I ever did it was at Ann Tables in San Todd.
1:11:49Well, it's been 68.
1:11:50Well, 68.
1:11:50But no, but I've made a sense of being present.
1:11:53Yeah, but we knocked it off after that.
1:11:54That's right.
1:11:55Because it's a bad thing.
1:11:56But the only thing that came close to what I did was probably last year's PR.
1:12:00She's obviously cookie.
1:12:02She always went a little bit odd because of all this.
1:12:23All these lobbies take any kind of an incident.
1:12:27That's why you've got to watch around here, see them having a man, being nice to them, anything.
1:12:32Playing golf with them, beating them on a course when they're there.
1:12:36They'll say, thank God I didn't play golf with them.
1:12:39Thank God, because if you did, they'd say, I played golf with them.
1:12:42I've heard more people say they played golf with me, and I've never seen them on the golf course.
1:12:47Really?
1:12:47That's the truth?
1:12:48Well, they were on the course maybe at the same time, ahead or behind me.
1:12:52They saw you, or you see that she went through the locker room, or she's basically a name-dropping pusher.
1:13:00I hadn't seen this, I guess it was the first week when we came back, and my papers hadn't started yet.
1:13:07So Jim Bassett was in town and called, and he said, what do you think of that old...
1:13:13tough top sergeant in that crazy memo or something, and I didn't know what he was talking about.
1:13:21She was bigger than Ted, too, wasn't she?
1:13:23Big, big woman.
1:13:24She was tall, but she was sort of thin.
1:13:26But now she's heavy.
1:13:28Oh, she was just terrible.
1:13:29She boxed everyone around the processor at all, I think.
1:13:31Is that right?
1:13:34Now the mystery's up.
1:13:36I didn't realize it was 60, but I remember distinctly Lou or Lee Nunn telling me she sold a lot of tickets, and I better be forgotten.
1:13:44That must be the one.
1:13:46But that could have been 68 or 59, because she would be more apt to sell tickets then than she was before, because when she was working in 60, she wouldn't have had time to be out selling them.
1:13:58It's about what she ever wants.
1:13:59That's fine.
1:14:01And I don't think she's...
1:14:02They're not planning that, you know?
1:14:04I don't remember anything.
1:14:05It's only that she talked to Mitchell at Clandestine.
1:14:07Or did she talk to Clandestine at Clandestine?
1:14:10And to Louie Nunn.
1:14:11And Louie Nunn said that, you know, we'll get it all fixed up.
1:14:15Of course he would say that.
1:14:17He always does.
1:14:19They always do, too.
1:14:20Any politicians look, I'll fix them.
1:14:22I'll work on them.
1:14:24I'll speak to them.
1:14:26And incidentally, it's not Bob Marion.
1:14:28It's William Marion, who is the vice president of IT&T here in Washington.
1:14:32Bob Marion has nothing to do with this.
1:14:38As good as the mystery office.
1:14:39I haven't seen her in any other country.
1:15:03I haven't seen her in any
1:15:04Well, I just wanted you to know that we're all hanging out over here, and we know this is a great shot for you.
1:15:14You're a strong girl, and I'm sure anybody that can crush you as low as the snows of New Hampshire will be able to survive this.
1:15:25Oh, yeah, good boy.
1:15:26Isn't that great?
1:15:28Great.
1:15:28Well, he's having a fine record there.
1:15:32And we just want you to know that we feel we've lost one of our own family.
1:15:41But thank heaven we got you with him, and that's the way he wants you to be now.
1:15:45So you just keep your spirit up, huh?
1:15:51Sure.
1:15:55Well, I'll tell you, we were having, John and I were talking, John and Tom and I were talking about it a couple weeks ago, and he was saying what a fine call he was, and we all felt that way.
1:16:07After all, he's in a better place.
1:16:13Oh, okay, yeah.
1:16:33They were always... Oh, boy, I remember her now.
1:16:35They just drank up.
1:16:37She was the most insane.
1:16:39She brought Ted out.
1:16:41Poor little Ted, a little Teddy, came wandering in, and she'd just chew him out.
1:16:46Not getting his dictation done on time.
1:16:48I remember when I saw her, she said, You don't remember me.
1:16:52And I did.
1:16:54And that was it.
1:16:55I don't know what this man was about, and that was it.
1:16:58She was Ted Rogers, Secretary.
1:17:01Peter Beard.
1:17:04Strangely, she didn't have any particular occasion to see much of her during the campaign.
1:17:09I never saw her at all.
1:17:10You weren't around there.
1:17:10I never saw her at all.
1:17:12I saw her today.
1:17:12She was out of the campaign.
1:17:17Now, maybe you might make a lot of a bad thing if you can, because it's not right to put him up against these sharpies.
1:17:24Or is that agreed?
1:17:25Yes.
1:17:27I don't know what you can do to the protection, but except to have Mitchell make the statement.
1:17:31That's the key, and that's what Johnson talked to him about, and these guys are working on getting all the facts put together and putting something down.
1:17:39Where does it leave me with regard to my Thursday operation?
1:17:41Well, if we get a statement out, then you use it.
1:17:44If not, Mitchell may be up on the hill by Thursday.
1:17:48If not, I don't know.
1:17:50I think we can work out a...
1:17:53I can answer for you if they can, but anyway.
1:17:56Well, anyway, what we could do, I could push a Thursday operation in front of you if necessary.
1:18:01Friday at 11, you know, go to Lillard.
1:18:06You know what I mean?
1:18:08That would be worth doing.
1:18:09It would be worth getting that done.
1:18:11It might be worth you going on the same day that you go to the overriding.
1:18:18Well, no, you want Mitchell's testimony to run, yes.
1:18:20Well, I want to be able to refer to it.
1:18:23I did not want to have to answer any questions on this.
1:18:26There was pretty general agreement that we ought to get a Mitchell statement out without waiting for Mitchell's testimony.
1:18:32And if Michigan releases a statement, even though he's falsely accused, he can refer to his statement in his testimony.
1:18:39They say, they think now this kennel is going to be a week, apparently, before the doctor will even let a committee staff person talk to her.
1:18:51And it'll be somewhat longer than that, of course, before she's going to come out and be able to hang out around that much time.
1:18:57So they're going to hang him until then.
1:18:59And Wally Johnson's view is that they'll probably just tie him up in the committee and forget about him.
1:19:07Not ever.
1:19:07We'll just never get around to him.
1:19:11It's just a real chance of that.
1:19:12They won't vote him down.
1:19:16What do you believe in this act?
1:19:18The immediate conclusion is that you should withdraw it and withdraw his name.
1:19:22But nobody else seems to feel that way.
1:19:25John surprised me with his political... Charlie Johnson came right back and said, then you're admitting guilt when there is guilt, which just doesn't make any sense at all.
1:19:38And not just one needs guilt.
1:19:40John's guilt was different about this.
1:19:41It's because of other reasons.
1:19:44He didn't even have a good sense this morning when I gave him the chance.
1:19:48He said, well, you felt he was in trouble for other reasons.
1:19:53Which he did, you know.
1:19:55He said we're going to stop it because of repression.
1:19:58Yeah, right.
1:20:07The other guys also are not so sure that the climbing was so long.
1:20:34Going through this hearing, they think that all this would have happened regardless of where I'm at.
1:20:39In a way, it looks better for him to have asked for it and for them to have done it.
1:20:46I can't see how they're going to leave the contact thing if they really don't like it.
1:20:50I'm sure he knows more about it than I do.
1:20:57He's certainly talking like...
1:21:01That was a problem I had with the Attorney General for all that time, the acting Attorney General.
1:21:06Then you get to the PR thing of every time you report on anything he does, you say acting Attorney General Clingens, who has not been confirmed because of the IT&T thing.
1:21:14Do we have any PR people to introduce?
1:21:23put it in context, get out stories and all the rest of it.
1:21:26All the people we got around here, I got it out of the impossible.
1:21:30Don't you think so?
1:21:32I mean, just the fact that, oh, I guess nobody wants to hear the truth.
1:21:39The fact of what the hell the contribution was, the fact that the settlement by DMT was no bonanza.
1:21:47Turns out,
1:21:50And that, they've gotten that story out, but not very strongly, and obviously it gets, you know, held her over.
1:21:57And they've gotten the story out that, on the, on the, uh, contribution thing, but that also, I don't know.
1:22:04On the Flanagan thing, I think I'll get that out, but, uh, Flanagan's...
1:22:07I don't know what the hell he would do that for.
1:22:12I mean, that, that I can't quite figure out as to...
1:22:15How many would have been involved in, to that extent, saying, look, I'll get you a man to check if it looks as if it's his ass?
1:22:22I guess you were.
1:22:28What?
1:22:44He announced today that he was going to start that tomorrow.
1:23:01And he's starting tomorrow.
1:23:11Interesting thing about your polls now, it seems to me, was the, was the, it seems to me, around our audience, it was undecided.
1:23:24Not on the approval, it's lower.
1:23:25No.
1:23:28No, excuse me, it's all 13.
1:23:29All right, there's more.
1:23:32But it's all from the disapproval to undecided.
1:23:35I think that's good.
1:23:36I mean, you're, in other words, the anti-mixing people are a little bit shaken in their oppositions.
1:23:41See, when you have an increase of 80% of the new disapproval, and an increase of 5% of the new approval, it's a 3 on the other side, from 10 to 13.
1:24:03It does spot the range.
1:24:04It always runs around 12.
1:24:05It's 50.
1:24:11Would you say it was 26% as a group?
1:24:2528.
1:24:2528.
1:24:2528% now.
1:24:26That is 13.
1:24:2859, 28, 13.
1:24:28And it was 54, 36, 10.
1:24:29It's down 8 points now.
1:24:33That's the goal of the trip.
1:24:41I think it also is an indication, because we're never going to be at a better level than this.
1:24:52It's an indication that that's probably our motto.
1:24:56I mean, the way the country is divided, the lack of confidence in government, and all that sort of thing.
1:25:06Not necessarily the optimal unapproval of that.
1:25:09I think it is.
1:25:11You'll be out this year, but that'll be down next month.
1:25:16But you're undecided.
1:25:20It seems to me you've got a lot of experience.
1:25:22If we could stay in the range of 54 to 5, that's pretty good.
1:25:25We might get much lower than that.
1:25:26Well, but 59 with 13 undecided, you've got to allocate the undecided.
1:25:32Well, yeah, but you don't do that on each month.
1:25:37Okay, but they have to at some point.
1:25:40It can't say 5928.
1:25:41Yes.
1:25:41We've now just about reached the level that we were immediately after the peace speech in 70.
1:26:06I remember we made the peace speech in Gallup in 1959, the Iron Arms.
1:26:17In fact, that's a study from 1959.
1:26:18But we're right, this is where we were in January of 1971.
1:26:23Right.
1:26:25Which is the same thing.
1:26:26We came before us.
1:26:27After things simmered down after the election.
1:26:31And there was a, it went down a little, then it went back up instead of, but they had exactly that in 59-28.
1:26:37with exactly the same figures.
1:26:49A lot of us cost us 10 points that we never picked up until now.
1:26:55And that's the secret of it.
1:26:58Yes, sir.
1:27:01Last time, it wasn't that much.
1:27:04But then in 47, the guy and all of them stayed down there.
1:27:07You know, well, I mean, in Gallup, we never were at 59.
1:27:12Oh, 6, 56, 49, 7.
1:27:13Yeah, it was supposed to be 7.
1:27:15I don't know if it's a bad thing.
1:27:24comment, question, you're talking, comment at all, or whatever else you want to do.
1:27:28Yeah.
1:27:283 o'clock tomorrow, he's testifying in the morning.
1:27:32Except for the description.
1:27:34And he thinks you should meet with Sonnet and Schultz and him.
1:27:38And says he has no need to meet with you alone, first or after, unless you want to.
1:27:42He's suggesting the full group, and then if you want to spend any time with them afterwards, you can.
1:27:49Well, now, could you or Brody Winters, the buddy, talk to him a little?
1:27:52I've got Henry on salve to talk to him about the trip.
1:27:56We're coming.
1:27:57Yes, of course.
1:27:59He's having lunch with him.
1:28:00He's gone.
1:28:01Then it is.
1:28:03Good.
1:28:05Constantly ride that, now, as I told you.
1:28:07Be sure to hurry.
1:28:08Cross this with him.
1:28:10Cross this with him.
1:28:13Yes, I mean, I said, get over there and trade with him.
1:28:14Talk to the assholes that are there.
1:28:22Well, you start your three o'clockers tomorrow.
1:28:24Yes, sir.
1:28:25Not a lot of them thought it was a good idea.
1:28:29And the PMs were a little...
1:28:32I told them 11 o'clock, we'd start regularly at 11 o'clock.
1:28:37And that Jerry would be there to give the basic announcements.
1:28:40And when we had messages to conduct those briefings, release that information.
1:28:44that I would brief at 3 o'clock every day and that would allow me time to participate in, you know, the meetings and so forth and have more time to discuss matters with the President before briefing to him sometime because of your heavy schedule in the mornings and so forth.
1:28:59I don't have time.
1:29:00So they thought it was a generally good idea to experiment.
1:29:04This is the first time that the
1:29:09The briefing schedule has been changed in a number of years.
1:29:12As a matter of fact, the wires moved the story up.
1:29:14Really?
1:29:15Yeah.
1:29:15They didn't move it negative?
1:29:17No, no.
1:29:17They just moved it as a fact.
1:29:19For the first time in a number of years, it said the White House announced today that the briefings would be changed with the time.
1:29:28Well, are they marked as a briefing, too?
1:29:29Oh, yes.
1:29:3011 o'clock, 4 o'clock, 3 o'clock.
1:29:31I put it on the basis that we briefed at about 1 o'clock.
1:29:35It was a good time today.
1:29:37because of the meetings and the McElroy thing.
1:29:40And I said, we'll do this for several reasons.
1:29:45I said, once you guys, you'll have to wait around for a couple hours every day.
1:29:48And I said, I'll just hand it over to you.
1:29:50And if you're getting a little lunch at the census seat, come over for lunch.
1:29:54So I asked, tell you.
1:29:56I'm telling you, you're probably going to do good.
1:30:07No, I was asked today about it and I said,
1:30:36The question came, is the president involved or following the ITT thing?
1:30:40And I said, I just don't have any comment from here on that subject.
1:30:43No one followed up on it.
1:30:46You know, I mean, it's obvious.
1:30:47Is the president following it?
1:30:48They're just looking for a White House quote.
1:30:50If I would have said that, then they would have had a White House quote.
1:30:55I don't think that's just a good way to, you know, they need to have a little chance.
1:31:02I think that's a good idea.
1:31:10No, but I think the press conference on Thursday would be good.
1:31:16It'd catch them off balance.
1:31:22You know, and it'd be a good way to...
1:31:26Pretty much so.
1:31:27Sure it is.
1:31:40I had deliberately, in order to mislead the people that told me, but first, for your information, I shouldn't have done that.
1:31:50Well, I've left it loose.
1:31:50I was talking to Bob before.
1:31:51They asked about whether or not it would be, if you were delaying your decision until after the Florida primary.
1:31:57I said, first of all, I took on the delay.
1:31:59I said the president was doing exactly what he said he would do before trying to redo a very difficult problem.
1:32:04Then I said, what's the Florida primary?
1:32:05Because I didn't want to address the Florida primary.
1:32:08And the guy said, well, next Tuesday.
1:32:10So I answered the question, and I said, well, I don't think the president will have completed the extensive, reviewing the extensive material he's asked for by next Tuesday.
1:32:20But I didn't, well, so be it.
1:32:23No, no, no, no, I just...
1:32:31Well that was really about it.
1:32:43I was asked about the story that they moved on UPI, that you were moving toward the moratorium.
1:32:58and away from the constitutional amendment.
1:33:04It's unbelievable.
1:33:06It moved before the meeting.
1:33:09Yeah, it moved before your meeting.
1:33:15But I made the point, I made the point, I said that...
1:33:26I made the point that I was concerned about that because they were criss-crossing me.
1:33:30It's not a 30-year buck, though.
1:33:32Goddamn bricks.
1:33:33No wonder he didn't recommend to talk about anything.
1:33:38No wonder.
1:33:39No wonder.
1:33:39I kept your options open.
1:33:40I said the President has not made a decision on this.
1:33:42He emphasized that in the meeting this morning.
1:33:44He's seeking the recommendation and viewpoints from all, the various viewpoints.
1:33:49Yes, sir.
1:33:49It's almost done.
1:33:54I bet you had asked for their recommendations and their thinking.
1:33:57And I bet you had met with the Congressman before.
1:34:01I bet you had asked for the facts and .
1:34:10I'm not too concerned about the Florida primary question on this.
1:34:14All right.
1:34:14In other words, whether or not it's out before or after the Florida primary.
1:34:20I didn't mean to give a point there.
1:34:23I think we're overreacting to that.
1:34:24I mean, the Florida primary is a fact.
1:34:25They're going to vote on it.
1:34:27One thing about it, especially since John and Dr. Disney were all working on that lawsuit, is they're going to make a vote in the straw vote and be overwhelming against it.
1:34:34And they'll say, in the wake of a huge referendum in Florida, Nixon says, stop busing them.
1:34:43And that's John Erickson's argument.
1:34:50Well, if you don't do that, they'll write the press anticipating it.
1:34:53Anyone that's going to write that.
1:34:56All right.
1:34:57Well, then they would claim that you... Then they would claim that you're doing it to influence Florida Prisoners.
1:35:07For 8 p.m.
1:35:07Your decision was made before the primary results were in and announced that it was not too effective.
1:35:17Other side is possible.
1:35:19You may be able to make that deadline.
1:35:26It's worth going.
1:35:31You have to say that you're doing it on that time for that reason.
1:35:35So it's not to influence or be influenced by the Florida primary.
1:35:41Or it's such a major issue.
1:35:42In order to take it out of that context, you're...
1:35:44But what is the problem?
1:35:46I agree with you.
1:35:49It does appear that we're pretty well focused on the Florida primary.
1:35:54What's the matter with being influenced by the Florida primary?
1:35:57There's another point, too.
1:36:00In other words, the president is approaching a serious problem because it has nationwide concern.
1:36:06That's why he is studying it.
1:36:07That's why he's examining it.
1:36:08Because people in the country don't think that kids should be bused in this massive little way.
1:36:16So the people...
1:36:30The Friday's not the best.
1:36:31The Friday's a good day.
1:36:32You still have the same television.
1:36:34On the other hand, it's not as intelligent as I am, so it could be.
1:36:36This is basically your living statement, which you want to carry.
1:36:40Well, how do you want your papers?
1:36:42Aren't they bad right there?
1:36:46Or would you prefer to have them as Sunday papers?
1:36:50Do you want them on television?
1:36:53What do you want?
1:36:54Well, what day next week would you prefer?
1:36:55Let me ask you that.
1:36:57It's like...
1:37:01I don't think it should be before the Florida primary.
1:37:03No, I don't either.
1:37:03It looks like they would even think that I was trying to help mine go up against Maddox.
1:37:06I don't think we should play out in this area.
1:37:11See, in doing it today at the Florida primary, you do run the risk of something like this, of it breaking.
1:37:18I think it would be very difficult to barter the hole.
1:37:21Okay, did you move on it the first thing the next morning?
1:37:25making it clear the decision had already been made, but was held up until after the primary in order to avoid... You look kind of odd, releasing something you need to contemplate.
1:37:33No, I think you're right.
1:37:33I think what you would say is that the president has reached a decision he can't take, and he's not preparing the decision to spiral, but it will be so that it will not have any influence on the Florida primary.
1:37:44He will issue it after the primary is over on Wednesday.
1:37:49How's that sound to you?
1:37:50You bet.
1:37:51That's not very good.
1:37:53That's a little less non-natural.
1:37:54Right here?
1:37:55Yes, but I'd like to...
1:38:00All right, fine.
1:38:00We'll think of that.
1:38:01That's better.
1:38:02And I think we're leaving a little more gaps on Thursday.
1:38:06Or leaving, I think either doing it that way or leaving a little more gaps in the joint primary in the date of release.
1:38:13Wait until Wednesday or Thursday.
1:38:15Until Friday, perhaps.
1:38:16Friday?
1:38:16Yeah.
1:38:17There'll be more gaps.
1:38:18Yeah, but announcing before that.
1:38:19You're announcing before that.
1:38:21If I get work done for the weekend, I'll try to do it on Thursday.
1:38:35Before you see him, I don't want to bother you, but I should tell you that the Chinese have called us that they have an urgent message to give us, which can only be delivered by their ambassador.
1:38:46So I have to send somebody else up there.
1:38:51And the North Vietnamese have asked to see us almost concurrently.
1:38:56I'm really very worried that this public linking of Taiwan to Vietnam, which we promised them we wouldn't do, which stayed dead on Thursday.
1:39:09Which one stayed dead?
1:39:11You know, the State Department spokesman said that the 6,000 troops that Vietnam united
1:39:19You hinted at it.
1:39:20Yes, I hinted at it.
1:39:21I was responsible.
1:39:24But they didn't... Ewell wasn't picked up.
1:39:27Ewell was repeated by Ewell Scott in a sort of a mushy way.
1:39:33But we'll have to see.
1:39:35But it makes it important now that we don't add salt to the wounds and let...
1:39:41I think you should just say to them that I've repeated... You know what I said to them.
1:39:47You repeat that as your...
1:39:50But I wouldn't say another quote he can give.
1:39:56Well, that's why I wondered whether we should see him.
1:39:59Well, the way things were at noon... Well, whatever damage has been done has been done, and we'll find out in the message.
1:40:08It may simply be that they're telling that it's a funny coincidence.
1:40:13But...
1:40:17But they told us, they told me that when I put in the trade, the sanctions diminished, that it couldn't be linked to Vietnam.
1:40:29It may be, I also sent him a message that you requested that we wanted to announce the parish contact.
1:40:34It may seem to be a funny coincidence, or maybe they're asking.
1:40:40Well, let me say you can't worry about everything.
1:40:43Okay.
1:40:44No, no, it's at the very same level at which they want to deliver it, that concern.
1:40:47Yeah?
1:40:49But when do you have to get it?
1:40:54You'll get it at 7.
1:40:56Tonight?
1:40:57Yeah.
1:40:58And the others, the others were going to deliver theirs at 8, daytime, 8.30, and when we got there, they said it isn't 8.30, it's 10.30.
1:41:05But the other, the North Vietnamese message will happen in another hour and a half.
1:41:17There's nothing worrying about it now.
1:41:21And I wasn't going to tell you if you hadn't seen this fellow until after we had the message.
1:41:28I heard if you would not see him... No, no, I think that would be too bad now.
1:41:33I think it's important... Why not just not sit down when he's here?
1:41:39No, I'd sit down for ten minutes.
1:41:40He put off his departure, he tells me.
1:41:43Just give him your regards and say we have...
1:41:54We hope so.
1:41:55But even if it isn't real... Of course, we're trying our damn level best, as you know.
1:41:58Oh, God.
1:41:59I mean, you couldn't... No, I haven't said one word, except that we... That, of course, unfortunately, they could have...
1:42:10But the state then puts it out indirectly.
1:42:12Their statement was made public, wasn't it?
1:42:14Their statement was on the record.
1:42:15Yours was a quotation from Scott in a sort of rapid way.
1:42:20And...
1:42:23But I don't want to do this injustice.
1:42:24It couldn't be, it might not be that.
1:42:26But, uh... Well, let me say this.
1:42:28Keep our balance.
1:42:32I mean, coming this long road with us, and our going that long road with them.
1:42:43I'm not so worried about that.
1:42:46They're not going to say discontinue relations?
1:42:49Oh, no, that should, surely not.
1:42:51But what they may do is to, it may be another delay in the Vietnam talk.
1:42:57That's the thing that worries me more.
1:43:00The Chinese would be doing that.
1:43:05But you hear it from them, and that's the hell.
1:43:07I don't care what we hear from the goddamn Vietnamese.
1:43:10I've never felt that everyone's doing anything anyway.
1:43:13But the...
1:43:14I mean, we hold it to the best.
1:43:19But what I mean is, if you don't, you're not getting much.
1:43:22Well, I think what the Chinese may do is present us a blast to the effect that they had always said Taiwan and Vietnam were not related, and that they want to officially state it.
1:43:33that our interpretation of something or other.
1:43:35Well, that would be... Well, it depends how far they carry it.
1:43:43Yeah.
1:43:44And we've confirmed that we... As long as they keep it in a secret channel, we can live with it.
1:43:49We've confirmed that that is our understanding, too, and that this public statement that was made was not on the rise.
1:43:55Right.
1:43:58That was an interpretation by a senator and the other... Yeah.
1:43:59Of course, Skunk's coming here.
1:44:03But Scott can handle it.
1:44:05It's important that... No, he said no.
1:44:09Well, if we get a note, that's one reason.
1:44:11They said we could pick it up any time before five tomorrow evening.
1:44:16As long as we get...
1:44:18If we get it, I'll just tell Rogers and send him the note if it's a blast so that he can guard himself in his press conference.
1:44:29That wouldn't hurt.
1:44:33Yeah, I'll bring her back.
1:44:35Sure, I'll be around.
1:44:36I hope for the best.
1:44:38And don't worry about it.
1:44:40No, no, I don't worry about it.
1:44:42But I can repeat this.
1:44:43I just say, whatever I said, you back up.
1:44:46Yeah.
1:44:49Okay.
1:44:51No picture.
1:44:54Just Ollie.
1:44:56Nobody.
1:44:58Did you tell everyone?
1:44:59I don't think I, I don't think I can say.
1:45:01No, no.
1:45:18Well, how are you?
1:45:19Nice to see you again.
1:45:24Nice to see you again.
1:45:29Yeah.
1:45:30Sit down.
1:45:30Thank you.
1:45:36Sit down.
1:45:36You too, sir.
1:45:40Yes.
1:45:40No, no, no.
1:45:40No, no, no.
1:45:43Well, Mr. President, I'm going back to Taiwan tomorrow.
1:45:48I just want to know if there's any message you have for my president.
1:45:56Very, very open, yes.
1:46:00And also, if there's anything you want to say.
1:46:07Well, I think the important thing to first of all,
1:46:32I noted that when Green was there, Pastor Green was there, that he indicated that he did not want to see him, that he wanted to see Mr. Green.
1:46:44I think you should know that when we came back, I told Mr. Kissinger to talk to you.
1:46:50Yes.
1:46:50And he has talked to you.
1:46:51I know that he's, of course, I had a record of the conversation I had with Williamson and the slave before I talked to you.
1:47:02I want you to tell the President that Dr. Kissinger's conversation with you represents my view
1:47:18I mean, it is an accurate description of what we talked about.
1:47:25And also, of course, he sent my public statement when I returned, which is the public statement that I made.
1:47:40But I think the more important thing is that he naturally
1:47:48and I understand this knowing that Dr. Kissinger sat in on all the talks, and also that Dr. Kissinger had conversations before I got there where no commitments were made.
1:48:00As a matter of fact, none were made this time, except that the K.A.
1:48:04expresses that there is, indeed, none to comment the standings.
1:48:07that he now, through you, and through my authorized visitor, because he can't fly out, of course, that you were able to convey to him the facts of the matter.
1:48:21I think that's the thing.
1:48:23Would you agree, Henry, with that?
1:48:24Because you see, it's important that he not feel that we sent to see him on a matter which is very important to him.
1:48:36somebody that he didn't feel had the information.
1:48:40Actually, Greene, we had filled in on the basic message, but Greene sat in, Secretary Strong stood up on him, and he just stood there in an airy manner.
1:48:50There was no conversation that took place with Joe and I, or a common person.
1:48:54Very angry, he was not present.
1:48:57And I authorized him to tell you that
1:48:59the substance of the whole thing.
1:49:01So I think if we could have that, that you could convey to him the condition, of course, in my personal regards, if you could convey to him, say, that Dr. Kissinger has agreed to, that these are the actions that are now, of course, all this, you see all sorts of talks about
1:49:27secret deals and so forth.
1:49:28You know I covered that in my remarks when I came home.
1:49:32What that tradition chief told you are the facts.
1:49:36That's the fact of the matter.
1:49:39And you should rely on that statement.
1:49:42If he were to go to Taiwan, he would tell what that tradition chief told you.
1:49:52That's correct.
1:49:54I don't think that's true.
1:50:01Mr. President, we're grateful to you for your long-continued interest in a peaceful settlement in Moscow.
1:50:15Now, Mr. President, may I say anything?
1:50:17I mean, did he pledge to renounce force, or propose what he intended to do, and how he came to tackle the problems?
1:50:59that is something which we're, well, for example, I think it can be said that despite great disagreements, the two things in which President Chong and Joe Maia agree on is about China.
1:51:34be settled about the as far as the in terms of how to do it and so forth.
1:51:42I would say that there's no discussion on that.
1:51:47That is something they don't think is our business, frankly.
1:51:52Well, except that we put in the
1:51:57which are very clear, one is we reaffirm our interest in peaceful settlement, which is, after all, of sailing argument.
1:52:08Then, secondly, we put in the breaks with the prospect of a peaceful settlement in mind.
1:52:14So if the word, you know your compatriots, the word prospect was not idly chosen,
1:52:22So the Chinese were very careful about words.
1:52:27They were not given a carte blanche to launch a military attack on Taiwan, quite the contrary.
1:52:33What kind of a time frame does this thing have on the event?
1:52:37None, sir.
1:52:38None, as a matter of fact.
1:52:40None, sir.
1:52:41That was not discussed.
1:52:46That would be .
1:52:47In other words, when you say, if you do it now, do it next year.
1:52:52I mean, it's a .
1:53:01In fact, what we were trying to do was put everything in that was there.
1:53:05We knew that on their part, they knew that that was the highest sensitive issue.
1:53:12They thought it should be covered.
1:53:14There was no discussion on should we do this now, next year, two years, three years, four years, five years, no time frame.
1:53:25Now, Mr. President, you're familiar with the history of our relationship with communism for the last 20 years.
1:53:32You know the situation today that exists better than anybody else in the world.
1:53:37If you were in my president's shoes, what would you do?
1:53:41And what would be your advice to my president on how to handle this thing?
1:53:46I mean...
1:53:48I hope it's not too much of a... Well, let me say that I...
1:53:50I would say in the first instance that I would say that I would not raise the question of whether there is a U.S. commandment.
1:54:07I don't accept that.
1:54:10Because if you raise the question
1:54:17enforce, all that you do then is to create this country and also create the BRC.
1:54:24And it says it, debate it.
1:54:28We have stated the situation and history.
1:54:34I understand your concern, but if you raise the question, it will only hurt your own cause.
1:54:46The second point is that in terms of what he does, what you do with regard to .
1:54:57i uh i frankly do not have a uh a uh a department i do love that in fact henry and i talked about that way back
1:55:15And do you have any thoughts on that?
1:55:18Because it's you I'm talking to.
1:55:19First of all, as ambassadors, sir, you've got to raise exactly the question.
1:55:22I don't know.
1:55:23You understand we're in a delicate position because both governments consider this to be an internal problem.
1:55:29So I know there are some that say, well, the United States has set in and set up something to bring this on.
1:55:36Right.
1:55:37Some say that.
1:55:39But I told the ambassador, first of all, we made it clear to the...
1:55:44people in PK.
1:55:46We call their attention to a phrase in the world report, we're not going to change, I've decided to do something.
1:55:53So, that means, in effect, they cannot count on us, or they cannot expect us to exercise any pressure on them to negotiate the second one.
1:56:01Or to find a form.
1:56:02Or to find a form.
1:56:03In the second way, I think we have to be realistic about the prospects.
1:56:10First, if you ask yourself what would have happened if the Chinese had done to us what they would have done in the East.
1:56:18Some of the people who now support you in the Democratic Party would have been the first to start organizing peace conferences about our being kind of an old-age military dictator.
1:56:30I'm just telling you the scenario and really undermining the commitment they would have done to us, what we're doing, and we have not.
1:56:37And with no deadline at all.
1:56:39And with no deadline.
1:56:40Supposing they had played the deadline game with us and used Grimoire, Mathieu, and other things at the level.
1:56:46Thirdly, in the period ahead, say, four to five years, as I told you when we met, many things can happen.
1:56:55You are under no pressure to settle.
1:56:57Mao could disappear.
1:56:58Zhou could disappear.
1:57:00Or both could disappear.
1:57:03So that this is not an issue that we have the impression that we were reversed in any intermediate time frame.
1:57:13And therefore, it would be a mistake for you to panic or do anything rash.
1:57:18Well, I would not be belligerent in a third and second consent.
1:57:22I would not quarrel with our student in the event that there is a connection.
1:57:29We've made it then, but if you keep racing, all you do, even if it costs us an answer, we can say, well, we've covered that.
1:57:36But if you keep racing, you're going to force an eventual failure
1:57:42which would not be in anybody's interest.
1:57:45You see, as you know, Mr. Baxter, there is a tremendous isolation ceiling developing in this country.
1:57:52I'm ending hell of a time ending Vietnam in the right way.
1:57:55And as you know, ending it in the right way is important because if we don't end it in the right way, America will drop in the Pacific, period, because of enormous frustration.
1:58:06Now, so is it in other things, other things of the, in the,
1:58:11If the new isolationists in this country get the impression that we're going to become involved in a great conflict because of the events that have happened in many places, in the Philippines, Thailand,
1:58:40you can have, you can set in motion forces of view that none of us want to set in motion.
1:58:47It's for that reason that I think that the, I think your foreign minister made a very good statement when he said that he accepted the proposition that the United States, Jesus, the person that made it, his commitment would be kept.
1:59:04And if it died right now,
1:59:06So I just started with that question.
1:59:09The second problem is in regard to how do we resolve it.
1:59:16Believe me, it would be, I just don't know.
1:59:20I have no answer to that problem.
1:59:22And it's about what they didn't ask us.
1:59:25Right.
1:59:25They didn't ask us.
1:59:28You must be thinking about it.
1:59:32And what ideas you might have, I would say, would be
1:59:42It's certainly extremely interesting, but we are not willing to try to intervene and force it either way.
1:59:48I think that's the proposition, and I think that's a very successful statement that we have opposed to the use of votes.
1:59:55Oh, and that's a different matter.
1:59:58No, but I mean intervening to force a diesel settlement.
2:00:02You see, that's the difference.
2:00:03Like, by this point, this really Arab thing where we are intending to try to broker it, you know.
2:00:08Here, we are not trying to broker it.
2:00:10That's the difference that I think you should have in mind.
2:00:14Now, where it goes from here, I think, has to develop over the period of time.
2:00:17I wouldn't be in that.
2:00:23There's no obligation to do anything.
2:00:31And there's no obligation.
2:00:35I mean, first of all, everything we said we stated unilaterally, not as an undertaking to the PRC.
2:00:41There's no treaty.
2:00:43Secondly, it's very carefully drafted if you read it carefully.
2:00:48And it's all unilaterally stated.
2:00:52We just, we agree to disagree.
2:00:54You see?
2:01:09Because their position on Taiwan, you know, stated last night, all about as hard as it has been in Eastern Vietnam, because they didn't use the force line.
2:01:19They didn't use...
2:01:20They didn't attack the defense treaty.
2:01:22And all of this is like nuance.
2:01:26They said Taiwan is a province of China, and we didn't say that.
2:01:31We said a part of China.
2:01:34I wrote that.
2:01:36I used the word part.
2:01:38Part.
2:01:41Well, that's the word.
2:01:41Well, I say I do.
2:01:42No, no, no, no.
2:01:44No, I mean, they agree with me.
2:01:46I mean, I say they agree with me, not object to it.
2:01:50It's the, it depends on where you are as to what you say profits your parties.
2:01:57Well, it's slightly less than we took one or two.
2:02:01Well, what profits indicates a downgrade to Americans?
2:02:05Yeah, I don't think it would indicate
2:02:14Now, where it goes from here, I think it has to develop over a period of time.
2:02:18I wouldn't be in, I wouldn't be in, I wouldn't be in Vanity, I wouldn't be in 23rd or 23rd.
2:02:27That's what I'm trying to do.
2:02:31There's no obligation to do anything.
2:02:34There's no obligation.
2:02:35I mean, first of all, everything we said, we stated unilaterally, not as an undertaking to the PRC.
2:02:41There's no treaty.
2:02:43Secondly, it's very carefully drafted, if you read it.
2:02:46Yes, carefully.
2:02:48And there may be, uh, we don't have an application for that.
2:02:53It's unilateral, part two.
2:02:54You see, both sides, you see, the Taiwan section, as well as the Korean section, the Japanese section, the South Korean section, it's all unilaterally stated.
2:03:04We just, we agree to disagree.
2:03:07You see.
2:03:09Because their position on Taiwan, you know, stated last night, all about as hard as it has been, interestingly enough, because they didn't use the force line.
2:03:22They didn't attack the defense treaty.
2:03:24And although there's a slight nuance, they said Taiwan is a province of China, and we didn't say that.
2:03:31We said a part of China.
2:03:34I wrote that.
2:03:36I used the word part.
2:03:38Part.
2:03:41Well, that's the word.
2:03:43Well, I can say I did.
2:03:44No, no, no, no.
2:03:45No, I mean, they agree with me.
2:03:46I mean, they say they agree with me, but they're not objective.
2:03:51Of course, it's the, uh, it depends on where you are as to what you say about what's your part, isn't it?
2:03:58Well, it's a slightly less, we just wanted to...
2:04:01What province indicates a downgrade to Americans.
2:04:04It would not indicate that to a Chinese because you think the whole country is being province, province, province.
2:04:12But in our country, the word province, in most of them, it means a lower level, you see, not a people level.
2:04:23Any personal word for my president?
2:04:25By all means, to him and to Madam John, my best wishes for their health.
2:04:33I'm amazed when I get reports from the vice president and other friends who go out there and they say he's just as sharp as a jack.
2:04:44I've always been impressed with that.
2:04:47And I wish him good health.
2:04:51And we know this is a painful time, and we know that this trip was a very difficult thing for him.
2:05:01We had to take a long view of it, but the great forces that are operating here also recognize that we're looking at a long view.
2:05:17peaceful resolution of these problems.
2:05:19And we may be able to be more effective if we're talking to the PRC than if we're not talking to them.
2:05:28That's really the philosophy that we're talking about, is that peaceful resolution is important.
2:05:32In the event that we have the use of force in any part of the world, any part of Asia, and even the Vietnam experience,
2:05:45It may be, you know what I would do if I were here, but I'm a little bit tough in the sun.
2:05:51But I would have serious doubts what other presidents might do.
2:05:57That's the real problem, you see.
2:05:59So the peaceful resolution, we think, is very, very important.
2:06:04And that's what this trip is about.
2:06:06But I don't have any time.
2:06:07But in terms of both my very best wishes and the...
2:06:15the continued friendship of the tribe.
2:06:17Oh, absolutely.
2:06:19Our friendship, personal, without a question, as well as the main action.
2:06:24We have a dream, but we also have a personal friendship.
2:06:27They know that.
2:06:30Huh?
2:06:31You've got a long journey ahead of you.
2:06:33Yes, sir.
2:06:34I hope you are not going to stop for a while.
2:06:36I have a boy here who needs a bottle.
2:06:39Uh, not having a way out, but on the way back, I may stop for a while.
2:06:43Are you going to have a chance?
2:06:45You almost have.
2:06:45Thank you, sir.
2:06:47That's sharp.
2:06:48That's good.
2:06:49When are you coming back?
2:06:50Oh, two weeks.
2:06:51Two weeks.
2:06:52That's good.
2:06:53When you come back, we'll get you to talk to Henry.
2:06:55And let me say that in the future, if you know why, I've got a pretty heavy domestic issue with you.
2:07:00I don't know, but I've always been a scary friend.
2:07:03But in the future, you can feel confident that if you talk to Henry, you're getting it straight from me.
2:07:09I'll back up.
2:07:10Will you come to me?
2:07:15And I don't have everybody see him either.
2:07:18No, seriously.
2:07:19I want you to do that.
2:07:21And what he told you, he gave you a full report of everything that I put on OKRM, as he knows, and so on.
2:07:27So you can take that and say, my best wishes, and have a good lesson.
2:07:37Give him my best wishes.
2:07:39And also to the, that's me.
2:07:41Dr. Tatum.
2:07:41Yes, I have two.
2:07:42I refer to you as the quiet state.
2:07:45Bye.

Nixon, Shen & Haldeman on ITT antitrust case and John N. Mitchell

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on March 6, 1972

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