Nixon, Kissinger & Haldeman on ITT controversy and 1972 election

2:18:22On your breakfast with me, do you want Shelton Kissinger to join you?
2:18:28That was the original thought.
2:18:59And on the purpose of the speaker and the house leaders, do you want McGregor to sit in?
2:19:21But we really, they ought to choose up on that, you know.
2:19:25One or the others, I'm not told, because it looks like we're getting enough to show me.
2:19:29Yes.
2:19:31I don't care.
2:19:32We were dealing with it most of the time.
2:19:37Did the state decide to file this letter or not?
2:19:41I think so.
2:19:44With regard to Romney, it's an interesting conversation, and I'm afraid we can't do anything now.
2:19:49I think he was planning, but I don't know.
2:19:52But it is, he used to have a band called Citizens for Michigan, you know, and he says it gives us all this idea that we've got to have a...
2:20:07to build public support for the great causes.
2:20:09The great causes, in his opinion, being the property of the inner city, meaning the property of the city, racial division, concentration of power, lack of knowledge of government,
2:20:20So you were pretty close to the mark there.
2:20:24And he says, I agree with you.
2:20:32He says, I was great.
2:20:34I'm not a salesman.
2:20:35I had the opportunity to do it.
2:20:38I liked it.
2:20:39I don't know.
2:20:40And so forth.
2:20:41I think it's very important that he said, I agree.
2:20:46So at least what you have settled is that he knows the early test.
2:21:13to get him to be seen, right?
2:21:15Taking it off immediately after the election so that he could be traded to the state.
2:21:23But a very crucial conversation then, he sits there and talks to his guests about this, and that didn't seem to have been made up for him.
2:21:30In January of 68, and the 14th of December of 68,
2:21:41Well, it's actually the record set in 1968.
2:21:42But, uh, it's always good to know that there is science, but the whole theory of being non-judge to the fact that in the discussion there is three disposals, three disposals, and a lack of revision later, which can be agitated in the discussions, which can be debated in the discussion of philosophy, which can be included in that decision, so the decision can be processed around the discussion of the name, the name of the profession, the secret, the direct, and the problem, so on and so forth.
2:22:12You know, I've always thought this is the case.
2:22:13It always seems to me that when we get to that, back over in West Vineyard, you know where you're going to come out.
2:22:21But it's just somebody who's got to direct all this, and you just kind of have a rattle of people, and you have a bunch of voices that just come apart at the seams.
2:22:36But at least you can get it off to a ramp, and you get it through here.
2:22:42Well, they're fine.
2:22:43They're fine.
2:22:43They just think what he calls the real city.
2:22:47Yeah.
2:22:48You don't have to have that.
2:22:52All right.
2:22:52All right.
2:22:53All right.
2:22:55All right.
2:22:58All right.
2:22:58All right.
2:23:01All right.
2:23:09I hope you're going through the same thing.
2:23:13Yes, sir.
2:23:14Yeah, he's born and over a recessive amount of energy, virility, and I suppose a hell of a lot of other things.
2:23:21And he wants to do good, do well.
2:23:24He's got an ego and so forth and so on.
2:23:26That's what makes him really go out and go, you know.
2:23:28Yeah.
2:23:28Yeah, Marcial, that...
2:23:30I said, the main thing you have to do, and I heard you, I said, I said, the second thing you have to do, because of that, you've got to go in here to get contributions from partners.
2:23:39The last week of the mission, I said, the mission, I said, the mission, we've got a lot of contributions.
2:23:55The second thing, the health staff, he says,
2:24:02staff director or some fellow like a Kissinger who kind of really worked with me.
2:24:06He said, you should go out and do the selling, but you should not try to run it.
2:24:10I was trying to figure out what my staff were going to recommend or not, but that's what we need.
2:24:15We're all going to need somebody to point him, to manage him when running.
2:24:18If he lost, he'll let you run.
2:24:20He won't.
2:24:21It's a funny thing.
2:24:22He won't.
2:24:23He short circuits his staff.
2:24:24We can't work with his staff.
2:24:26It just suddenly comes through him.
2:24:29I thought at one time that it was a sort of quality control thing, but it isn't, T.O.
2:24:38Well, he won't be any worse than John Gardner, but he won't be a hillbilly.
2:24:42He won't be as indecent as Gardner.
2:24:49No.
2:24:49But that's what he's going to do.
2:24:53He won't be completely dissimilar to Gardner.
2:24:56No.
2:24:56He's not as good intellectually.
2:24:59No.
2:25:01But he's better, he'd be a better settler.
2:25:02Nationally, a settler counts.
2:25:04Although Gardner's a pretty good settler, particularly with intellectuals.
2:25:09Gardner sounds good.
2:25:12I've been over to look at John Mitchell in his new law office.
2:25:15How does he look in his new law office?
2:25:17Well, he looks very prosperous in his new law office.
2:25:22And he thinks that it would be very improper of him to make a statement or have a press conference before he testifies.
2:25:28Oh, really?
2:25:29And if indeed the President gets asked anything about ITT, he should say that the President thinks it's a nifty idea that plaintiffs demanded a hearing.
2:25:39and that since they're not even going on, we wouldn't have any comment from here.
2:25:45Are there some of you?
2:25:46Well, it's one way out.
2:25:48It's one way.
2:25:49It's not as good as being able to say that everything's been said.
2:25:54But what we just say, I would have thought a little since that annoying figure that John would probably come up with this, if he wasn't going to testify, but I thought it might be a good idea to say, well, gentlemen, now there's Mr.
2:26:06Clandestine, he's asked for this hearing, and he's...
2:26:12There's nothing whatever to hide.
2:26:13And I said, I got the Assembly Judiciary Committee to conduct the hearing.
2:26:20And I believe that he wanted me to say something.
2:26:28And I believe that his position would be mentioned here.
2:26:30So he was prepared to answer along those lines, which doesn't put me completely out of the way.
2:26:35You can't go along with the idea that John O'Groff said, I can't do it.
2:26:40Well, I don't think anybody involved in this
2:26:59entangling with the, if there was any connection in Kleine's mind between the conventional donation and the money.
2:27:07But I don't think anybody even says the problem that you have is that Kleine's is not likely to be confirmed for the rest of the time.
2:27:18But what the hell is he going to do?
2:27:22Now John disagrees with that.
2:27:24John says he'll get confirmed.
2:27:26He says all we have to do is get that woman on the stand
2:27:29And once we have her testify, then that'll be the end of it.
2:27:32We're going to blow over.
2:27:33You know who she is?
2:27:35Rose finally uncovered the mystery.
2:27:38She is that incredible follow-on to Rod, who was Ted Rodgers' secretary in the 60 campaign.
2:27:46Remember that Steven Beard did it?
2:27:48Well, now I do.
2:27:49That's Steven Beard.
2:27:51Remember who he is?
2:27:52Shut up, you sons of bitches.
2:27:55Who else?
2:27:57Well, what was she doing there?
2:27:59She worked for Ted Rogers in the campaign, and afterwards she became a Washington lobbyist, apparently.
2:28:04She's done very well.
2:28:05She was sort of Ted's mother.
2:28:07Yeah.
2:28:08Superior.
2:28:09Yeah.
2:28:09I think there's more there than meets the eye, too.
2:28:12She's quite a person to sit with people.
2:28:15Is she?
2:28:17That's what I heard.
2:28:19I mean, I was already going to talk to him about how that could be possible, but not with him.
2:28:22But I was trying to say, I don't want to pretend.
2:28:24I wasn't the type to talk to what happens in Washington, D. You know, you're just being around the campaign and finding people to be interested.
2:28:29Yes, but I would imagine that you would find a couple of Jim Bassett duets.
2:28:38I'm going to tell you a few stories.
2:28:42You know, Ted Rogers' novel.
2:28:46And a long section about how the guy who was Ted Rogers was sleeping with some gay.
2:28:52And his wife found out about it and all that.
2:28:55Yeah, but he also had a long, slinky, blonde secretary around.
2:29:01Did he?
2:29:02Don't you remember?
2:29:03The one that looked like an airline stewardess?
2:29:06She was sort of an office manager type, wasn't she?
2:29:08She wasn't really a secretary.
2:29:09She wasn't.
2:29:09She wasn't a secretary.
2:29:10She was a, you know, she was...
2:29:14There was always one that brought you a drink who was about six foot nine, long, blonde hair.
2:29:19And Ted, oh, usually he's a small man, very tall, and it was quite common that he, his wife was tall.
2:29:30Martian is due to leave the Justice Department pretty much at our pleasure, as far as John's concerned.
2:29:38Would we please do that?
2:29:39Well, he's got one interesting point.
2:29:41He says, if Martian leaves, who's left?
2:29:43And you start to think about it, there ain't nobody left.
2:29:47And so I said, well, maybe we work out a system so that Wally Johnson can run both ends.
2:29:53And he said, yeah, that would work.
2:29:55He buys Wally Johnson being the manager?
2:29:57No problem.
2:29:58No problem.
2:29:59That's good.
2:29:59Well, we just have to survive it.
2:30:04It's an amazing thing, Mother Taker.
2:30:09I mean, if we were going to fix the goddamn case, why the hell are we going to fix it so that the city of San Diego host committee gets $100,000 or $200,000?
2:30:18I don't give a goddamn where the convention's held.
2:30:20I mean, of course, the engine line would have been burning around about $150,000.
2:30:26I mean, I can give a shit.
2:30:28We could have had it in Dallas or, you know.
2:30:31Wilson is now demanding that he be permitted to testify.
2:30:36He'll testify that Finch came to him and said that the President wanted the convention in San Diego, and that the way to get this was for San Diego to put up $800,000.
2:30:49That is a food-perfect lie.
2:30:52That's probably true.
2:30:57Oh, that Finch told him that, sir.
2:30:59But I didn't tell Finch that.
2:31:00But it's true that Finch told him that.
2:31:02Yes, Finch was, if you remember, was very interested in being late here.
2:31:05Yes, he was.
2:31:07By bringing the convention.
2:31:08You remember about how scrupulous I was about it.
2:31:10I apparently filmed one in Chicago a year ago.
2:31:13Well, you did very well.
2:31:14That's right.
2:31:15You frustrated the hell out of Bill.
2:31:17No, no.
2:31:18Bill.
2:31:18In Kansas City and all that.
2:31:20I would have taken anything, but I thought San Diego was not a good bet.
2:31:25That was it.
2:31:25Well, hell.
2:31:27They're going to say that he hasn't had the $800,000, so that's why he went out and got the $800,000.
2:31:32Well, he didn't quite.
2:31:33He only got $400,000, which is now only $100,000.
2:31:36Well, that's there.
2:31:40Yeah, but Wilson says he can establish the separateness of these two transactions.
2:31:47And that nobody... Well, there's a little tiny problem there with Finch.
2:31:53Yes, indeed.
2:31:54And then you get Finch called up.
2:31:56What do you got there?
2:31:57Hot dog.
2:31:58You mentioned Finch up before the committee?
2:32:01Well, it would be good, but the police...
2:32:06The absurdity, I mean, in case any honest columnist can say the absurdity of the convention, we don't have a convention, is that if we run into a big white crisis, we can do what we were elected to have done with the metal producers.
2:32:20Have I heard the campaign?
2:32:21We didn't get to the campaign, to go out there, as far as I know.
2:32:27Isn't that true?
2:32:27That's correct.
2:32:28All that negotiation was about the host committee.
2:32:31Yeah.
2:32:32Business for what San Diego would bid against Miami and Chicago.
2:32:37But let me be very clear, I did not pick San Diego and make sure that Kench knows that.
2:32:43I didn't do it.
2:32:44You remember, I said, he called Doe in and Doe wanted you to say San Diego so that he could sort of back it up.
2:32:50He said, I don't care what city you have in.
2:32:53So you're looking at, you know, I told him, I said, he used to say that, and I think it went on, I said, three cities.
2:32:58It could be San Diego, Chicago, or Miami.
2:33:02Those were the things, and I said, that was, and Mitchell moved out of Chicago.
2:33:05Huh?
2:33:06Mitchell moved out of Chicago.
2:33:07That's all right, but I didn't.
2:33:09No, you didn't.
2:33:10I didn't, and I told him, you were pushing for Chicago.
2:33:13Because we just, we are here.
2:33:14We're all out there, and that's the thing we've got to get across.
2:33:17And Finch and his own, he gets around parts of the thing.
2:33:20But you can't blame them.
2:33:22They wanted it there, and what people make for drop names and so forth.
2:33:26Well, that's sort of the cougar California hoax and all that.
2:33:35So Mitchell thinks he was right in asking for the hearing, probably because Mitchell advised him to.
2:33:39Well, he said there was going to be a hearing anyway.
2:33:42He said that Eastland was bound to reopen the hearing because he always rolls for Hart, Kennedy, and Byatt.
2:33:52That's what Wally Johnson seemed to think, too.
2:33:55And that really, we're in a better posture for having asked for it than if we'd been dragged into it.
2:34:02which would argue for the president to reiterate the points he has to ask for.
2:34:06That's fine.
2:34:07That's fine.
2:34:07It's an issue I'm still getting raised.
2:34:09We don't want there to be any question about the man that's going to be the chief law enforcement officer of this country.
2:34:15And consequently, the hearings are being held.
2:34:17I'm not going to comment upon that.
2:34:20I've said that earlier that he asked for it.
2:34:23And I'm sure that the hearings would actually be...
2:34:29it will be held fairly, and that this, any impropriety will be cleared up.
2:34:40So I think we could say that progress, something that, what I mean is, make it shorter, right?
2:34:45I mean, we're in this day and age at this point, while they are in certain progress.
2:34:50And I, I, I invite, I urge, I invite the committee to conduct a full investigation.
2:34:55I should take that on.
2:34:56Full investigation, just as I agree with the attorney, with the acting attorney general, that there should be no cloud over this, over the high, high-advocacy name that, that of course I would name if I didn't accomplish them.
2:35:13And I think that, therefore, I think that the hearing should go forward.
2:35:16It should be, all the evidence should be presented.
2:35:19And I believe that those are the evidence to show that the committee will reaffirm its support after the conclusion.
2:35:29I don't believe, but it's up to them.
2:35:33It's up to them.
2:35:34I'm not going to comment on the progress.
2:35:36I think that's not a bad job.
2:35:39They did the white-out.
2:35:40They did the white-out.
2:35:41What about Mr. Flanagan?
2:35:42Well, what about him testifying?
2:35:44What do I say?
2:35:45That's the one question I guess we have to answer.
2:35:50We can have that out of the way before there's a question.
2:35:56No.
2:35:56You mean the question of Flanagan?
2:35:58The question is testifying.
2:35:59No.
2:35:59Have they asked him what is the finding?
2:36:01They have not yet asked him.
2:36:03What have they asked him?
2:36:04What do I say?
2:36:07No, I think you'd say that from what you know about it, that would seem to fall within the general category of testimony as to which we have taken a consistent position throughout the administration.
2:36:31But however, the Justice Department, why don't you put it on the basis that for the Justice Department, they have all the information.
2:36:39We have a procedure that we follow, and that when we get requests, it's very, very short.
2:36:43I don't want the headline to be next to claims executive privilege.
2:36:47I'm behind it to see that's the trouble with me, unless you answer.
2:36:49Okay.
2:36:49There's ought to be more that the Justice Department has to do with all the information.
2:37:00Yeah, you could say my general philosophy in matters of this kind is to make sure that all of the evidence is brought out, one way or the other.
2:37:08And if it is impermissible for Mr. Lannington to testify, we'll make sure that whatever he knows is made available to the committee in some other way.
2:37:16That's good.
2:37:17That's good.
2:37:17If you write that down, I'll handle that.
2:37:21If you tell me you can't, you're referring me to that response.
2:37:25So they lift it off.
2:37:26These are other questions.
2:37:28These aren't actually sugar.
2:37:33I'll take all that lunch and I can do that.
2:37:39I was talking to Ron about the bussing thing.
2:37:42Ron has pretty good judgment.
2:37:43He thinks that the two-seater is a little too cool.
2:37:45He says, you know, first of all, it would be goddamn hard to hold the leak.
2:37:50You can't reveal it from the rear.
2:37:52You've got to breathe on it and everything like that.
2:38:03More importantly, he said, no matter how you did this, he said, it's run.
2:38:08The next day, the day the Florida primary, he said, the public would be confused in two stories.
2:38:14You'd have one hell of a time saying.
2:38:17His point would be, he said, he feels that the better course would be for us to not.
2:38:24I'm happy that the President has concluded it.
2:38:27He has made his decision.
2:38:29He, however, and is now preparing, is now completing the preparation for making a statement on this whole matter.
2:38:37He is, however, not going to release it today, even though he's made the decision he's going to do it, because he does not want to influence the Florida primary.
2:38:46And it will be issued the latter part of the week.
2:38:49He ought to hit it for around Thursday.
2:38:53I think it's a lot of, I think he makes, I mean, I've got to respect his judgment on matters because he knows he's clocked in the best way that we do.
2:39:01That gives us, too, a little bit more time to pull it together and do more of that and so forth.
2:39:04Thursday or Friday, as a matter of fact, be the day that we are able to communicate about Friday.
2:39:14So I think it, I don't think it bothers me too much to be worried about the fact that the Florida primary may show they vote for Wallace if they struggle with busing and deal with the fact that they're not going to be tackling the issue very fondly anyway.
2:39:28Well, maybe we argue with the moratorium.
2:39:29I had about a day, and Zegler was telling me at the end of it, I said, what did you get out of today?
2:39:34He said, well, they asked me about the moratorium.
2:39:36I said, who the hell is he about?
2:39:38He says, it was Lee before your meeting.
2:39:41And I was running on the wire early, early this night, and I just thought, doesn't that show why you can't talk to departments?
2:39:48Doesn't really show you.
2:39:49Now, so what happened?
2:39:51Either the Justice Department or H.E.W.
2:39:54went home and breathed a goddamn stab, and some son of a bitch called up the press and told them.
2:40:01Now, the blacks didn't know what the moratorium suggestion was.
2:40:04Who didn't?
2:40:05Morgan's best guess is that it came out of Civil Rights Division of Justice.
2:40:13All schedule C people and stuff.
2:40:18Not lawyers, not civil service.
2:40:23I don't imagine firing a whole goddamn bunch.
2:40:28Well, that's what we'd love to do.
2:40:31You've got to go through... Harlow told us to do this.
2:40:34We made a great article on it.
2:40:36He said, fire, change all the PR people.
2:40:40public information people, and changed all the lawyers.
2:40:43And we had to change a goddamn lawyer.
2:40:45I know of them.
2:40:47Except for the top ten congressional liaison people.
2:40:50But you know, the lawyers, John, are the snakes in the woodwork here.
2:40:54Time and again, the lawyers, after all, they're heavily Jewish, heavily liberal, heavily racist.
2:41:01And we're having items released on their time and again.
2:41:04Oh, we have just terrible trouble with these guys out on the field.
2:41:08Just awful.
2:41:10And I've sat in meeting after meeting after meeting with Mitchell and Morgan, where Morgan has pounded on Mitchell to get rid of these guys.
2:41:20Things have changed.
2:41:21We have the opportunity.
2:41:24We're around.
2:41:24We have the opportunity to do it.
2:41:27We are.
2:41:27By God, that's one thing I'm going to move on.
2:41:29Well, that'll be great.
2:41:30I want the whole list to believe that we can get together.
2:41:33We know.
2:41:33I don't just want to pick the one you think are bad.
2:41:35I understand.
2:41:37They've got government.
2:41:38Fire them all.
2:41:39Every goddamn one.
2:41:41Out.
2:41:42That's it.
2:41:43Not only do we know who they are, we've got specifications on what they've done that's wrong.
2:41:48And I'm not a den of it.
2:41:49If you start picking them up, if they are Schedule C people, so-called, they're out.
2:41:56You see, look, fellas, we appreciate it.
2:41:58We'll turn to the government.
2:41:59You're out on December 1st.
2:42:01It'll be Christmas.
2:42:05I said it's a great Christmas present.
2:42:09That would be a Christmas present to us.
2:42:11That would be great in our lives.
2:42:12That would be marvelous.
2:42:14Just marvelous.
2:42:15I want to give you time to change.
2:42:17Move.
2:42:17Head in through the end of the year.
2:42:19Be generous.
2:42:23As a matter of fact, it's occurred to me that we ought to pick up resignations from people all across this government before the election.
2:42:34Effective to January.
2:42:36We knew that before the election.
2:42:39No, they don't need to, John.
2:42:40Well... You just purged the hell out of them afterwards.
2:42:45Yeah, but it just occurred to me that the President ought to have the flexibility.
2:42:50Yeah, but you agreed to serve, did you?
2:42:52Or it may be after the election.
2:42:55All right.
2:42:55I suppose.
2:42:57That's Wednesday.
2:42:58On Monday morning, we'd like him in person.
2:43:01He's got to be gone for the weekend.
2:43:03If you don't get the resignation, so you didn't with the U.S. Attorney...
2:43:08Yeah, we are.
2:43:08If you don't get it, they're fired.
2:43:10I mean, you can either do it one way or the other.
2:43:13But we do that across the board.
2:43:15As a matter of policy, we'd like to hear the opposition of everybody who serves at the pleasure of the president.
2:43:20And try at every level.
2:43:21And we could say we want everyone, and we'll reappoint a few.
2:43:24But you understand what I mean?
2:43:25Sure.
2:43:25Then you take the good ones and promote them, the bad ones and fire them.
2:43:28Then go out on a massive band hunt and build a new staff.
2:43:35Well, I'd be all for that.
2:43:39Well, we'd be in a position to be able to do something about it this time, whereas last time we weren't.
2:43:55Yeah, but he based the work from it.
2:44:03It was nice.
2:44:06Very nice.
2:44:09Now that lead on this moratorium was playing on the radio at 6.30 this morning.
2:44:20That's where I wake up.
2:44:30All right, sir.
2:44:30Set the agenda for the day.
2:44:31I know it does.
2:44:32I know it does.
2:44:33But you've got to react to the incident.
2:44:35Screw it.
2:44:35What's news this morning may not be news this afternoon.
2:44:38Boy, if I was excited about the news this evening or this afternoon, I'd be trying to introduce you.
2:44:47I'd be trying to screw it up a little.
2:44:49I'd be a jittery idiot.
2:44:50I would not have ever seen it.
2:44:52I'd be like, there he is.
2:44:53There he is.
2:44:54There he is.
2:44:56I was in that oval office of his down in Austin the other day.
2:45:00That's an extraordinary phenomenon.
2:45:03He's got this model of this room, you know.
2:45:06It's like I saw it shrunk.
2:45:08It's weird.
2:45:09You step in that thing and you know something's wrong because the dimensions are all wrong.
2:45:13But he's got those two great big tickers and that television thing right smack there, you know.
2:45:18And the flight is over here somewhere.
2:45:19Yeah.
2:45:22He says that's the most popular room in this place.
2:45:25I wouldn't be surprised.
2:45:29I mean, it is nicely done.
2:45:30I mean, it is a good replica in scale.
2:45:34And he's got his office right through that wall on the other side, a little private office.
2:45:41It's a great dining room.
2:45:46That they, uh, the old ones, they, uh, he does everything subconsciously, I must say.
2:45:53One room we'll have, we'll have two rooms, but, uh, the weather library will have, will be a China room and a Soviet room.
2:46:05And he said, he said,
2:46:10The China Wing can be quite a thing.
2:46:11Something is something that can be quite a thing, too.
2:46:16But the China Wing is not going to get any of my papers or all of my pictures.
2:46:22That's the real thing.
2:46:23You know, those are really the most true.
2:46:27I would think so.
2:46:30I would think so.
2:46:30Those are really the most true.
2:46:31Well, he has a very funny perspective on what is important as displayed by that library.
2:46:38He has cartoons.
2:46:39He has that kind of stuff, huge cartoons and campaign stuff.
2:46:44But then he's got his daughter's two weddings in the most prominent location in the whole place.
2:46:51Wedding dresses and stuff.
2:46:55And you won't find anything about foreign affairs in the whole damn place.
2:46:59One little tiny case on Vietnam.
2:47:04and nothing about the rest of international relations.
2:47:07Are you glad there's some Glassboro pictures?
2:47:10Did you have Glassboro alone?
2:47:12Not when we were there.
2:47:13Really?
2:47:13Was that big picture blown?
2:47:15No.
2:47:23Now they've got a great, huge exhibit now on education.
2:47:26His major problem, can I urge you to instruct me on his major problem, is too goddamn big.
2:47:33Big, barking, filthy, just awesome.
2:47:36It looks like a damn mausoleum.
2:47:37Yeah.
2:47:38Or whatever a mausoleum looks like.
2:47:40That's it.
2:47:41But anyway, the pyramids, this is not, I don't like those ceilings, but I don't like something that is just unbelievably gauche.
2:47:53And the fellow at Middleton who's running it took us into that big area.
2:47:58As you come up the stairs, you know, there are those big murals.
2:48:01And then there's all kinds of space behind you.
2:48:04And he said, nobody will go back there.
2:48:05They've had all kinds of exhibits back there, but it's so barny.
2:48:09And so people look, and they walk over there and see what the exhibits are.
2:48:14So it's just been a failure.
2:48:16And that's where we had some interesting stuff, moving picture exhibits.
2:48:19Yep, that's a flop.
2:48:21It's closed now.
2:48:22Do you still think we can make the move regardless of the outcome of the election to get it out of place?
2:48:29Pendleton?
2:48:30Yeah.
2:48:30Or anything that Congress should base on?
2:48:32No, we think either way we've got a very strong chance of getting it.
2:48:38Well, it sure should.
2:48:38I think that's the best place.
2:48:41It could be no more.
2:48:42I don't know what the hell he was putting.
2:48:46He might put some documents.
2:48:49You knew about the Chinese library, right?
2:48:54No.
2:48:56There is an 800 volume, 800 volume, 800 volume history of the channel.
2:49:01And Joe and I arranged for one boy to go to the State Department for his library.
2:49:12He found another setting, which he's giving to me for the White House.
2:49:19And I said, well, it's for you and your choice.
2:49:23to place for everything in the United States, they would like most to have it.
2:49:30And so somebody was saying they would hire Tao very much and screw it and move it to the next library.
2:49:36It's very long.
2:49:36The focal point of the Chinese book is it's only for scholars.
2:49:39You understand this is all in Chinese, but it's scholars who can come in there and read those books.
2:49:46It's a great thing for that.
2:49:48It makes that library a major institution on the west coast.
2:49:52Now, the west coast is where it ought to be.
2:49:54You have the other ones for the State Department, so you've got an east coast.
2:50:00Well, let me, I asked around a little bit.
2:50:03Don't put it at any university, because you want to separate the universities.
2:50:11I think that's what to do, is endow a chair.
2:50:13They said to separate
2:50:15your documents is not really very workable because of the cataloging problem, because of the... Well, now, see, they have that School of Public Affairs in association with the Johnson Library.
2:50:42It just happens to be next door to it.
2:50:45But it doesn't have to be.
2:50:49You could call it a school of public affairs.
2:50:56International affairs or international politics or something.
2:51:00And something that's easier to learn.
2:51:03Oh, that's the peace lines.
2:51:05You could spell it the school of international...
2:51:10Affairs and what people can have the privilege of a library.
2:51:14It's an institute.
2:51:15Yeah, World Peace or something.
2:51:19They have old John Granowski down there.
2:51:22He's the dean of the School of Public Affairs.
2:51:25The old postmaster?
2:51:26Yeah.
2:51:28Maybe you could actually see the university there.
2:51:31Maybe you could get red blood to collapse in two years.
2:51:34Jesus Christ.
2:51:36Yeah, this luncheon that they had for us, they had Gronowski, Walt Rostow, Tom Johnson, Harry Middleton, and it looked like the off-camera retreaded Johnson White House staff, his secretary, you know who that is?
2:51:54People's Army Captain?
2:51:55No, the other one, the blonde.
2:52:00You know, the thing about David Johnson, one that I really do feel sorry for him, is that he differs from me in a very fundamental way by talking to the most about him.
2:52:04You know, I was telling proposal that I was going to write a new book, and I was going to make new speeches, and I was going to make new boards, and I was going to crash laws and that sort of thing.
2:52:19So that's the difference between me.
2:52:25He craved public attention.
2:52:27He craves company.
2:52:29And here's the poor son of a bitch that sits down there.
2:52:31He's not one Democratic candidate who comes to see me.
2:52:35When I finish, whether it's the end of this year or the five years, I don't want him to come see me.
2:52:40I don't want anything to do with it.
2:52:43Yeah, but they'll knock your door down.
2:52:44Never.
2:52:47I mean, if you lose the election, they don't bother.
2:52:52I'm not so sure about that.
2:52:56It is not really that kind of loss.
2:52:58My point is, whatever the case might be, the idea of...
2:53:04of a former president prostituting himself to practice law, to be on the board of even the Boys Clubs of America, or the YMCA.
2:53:15Who tells you to sit on the God damn board?
2:53:18It's the most horrible, horrible thing in the world.
2:53:21It's terrible.
2:53:23Johnson, I gather, has practically moved to Mexico.
2:53:27He was in Mexico when we were down there, and he had two...
2:53:32He's got a ranch, and he's got a house in Acapulco, apparently.
2:53:39You know what that would cost?
2:53:40He's got a huge ranch, and he uses... Did Hughes tell you any of the stories about aircraft and stuff?
2:53:47He showed me the hangar.
2:53:48Where they fly his fire equipment down and his cattle.
2:53:52What kind of... Hughes won't do it.
2:53:59Johnson's Secret Service man says, you know, the President's going down taking all his farm equipment and we ought to have a plane to put him on.
2:54:06They use government planes.
2:54:08They don't, but they wanted to.
2:54:09How does Johnson go when he goes to Florida?
2:54:11Does he go commercial or government plane?
2:54:13Government.
2:54:14Government.
2:54:16You mean Johnson comes from Washington, comes on a government plane?
2:54:21You see, we offered to send a Jetstar down for him, and he always says, oh, no, thank you.
2:54:24Then what he does is he orders up a Jetstar that he's already got down there and flies up in it.
2:54:29It's a great big hangar.
2:54:30Those are the same thing, because, see, you're under Secret Service protection, and they do it, they provide oil with the transportation, any amount of oil for it in the car.
2:54:41It also provides you with your world transportation, which is dang good, because you probably will want to travel somehow.
2:54:48I bet you will.
2:54:50I will see you in the world.
2:54:51I know you'll never go.
2:54:52Look, it was a pain in the ass to travel when I was a former vice president.
2:54:56I was a former president.
2:54:57There's no way.
2:54:58When you got as a man, you take the...
2:55:03The business of the guy that's really in a hell of a bad spot, actually, is the former vice president.
2:55:08Oh, yeah.
2:55:09The day he leaves office, he doesn't have a shoulder.
2:55:12He doesn't have a car.
2:55:13He doesn't have a Secret Service man.
2:55:15He doesn't have any staff, though.
2:55:16He doesn't have a pension.
2:55:17He doesn't have staff, though.
2:55:19He doesn't have any... No staff.
2:55:21Nothing.
2:55:21It's wrong.
2:55:22Well, I'll never forget that in 61.
2:55:24With all the staff and everything else he got, and all the money he had, because he was worth money himself,
2:55:32The National Committee, and you were out there with ten times the mail that Eisenhower had.
2:55:37Sure.
2:55:38The National Committee voted $65,000 a year to handle correspondence for President Eisenhower, and Donna Nicholfer, who's hired some writers and secretaries, and I did it all out of my own pocket.
2:55:51And you had to scrub around, do it out of your earnings, and a lot of people think Cliff Moser would...
2:55:58I put in an interview.
2:55:59They let me go to Cliff Bolger, we put each other in it.
2:56:02He sent me the money out, if you recall, by the postage.
2:56:05That was prior to the 1962 election.
2:56:07Before this, the hand of the editor-in-chief, Cliff, was marvelous.
2:56:10But after 1962, I did it on my own.
2:56:14Now, down to then, we had what Chicago has.
2:56:16All the money I earned in the argument.
2:56:18Rockets, perhaps, were 10 to 15 million, which you should have.
2:56:22You've got to get a hell of a lot out of Crisis and a lot of others.
2:56:48I don't know when we can tackle the problem, not now.
2:56:52But there should be something for the former vice president.
2:56:56Do you think so, Jim?
2:56:56Now there is at least some transition money available to the former vice president.
2:57:01Yeah.
2:57:02But it's just one year, one shot.
2:57:05But it's better than Houston.
2:57:07He did secret service for a little while.
2:57:10But we arranged that for company.
2:57:12Yeah.
2:57:12But I don't know if it will be done again.
2:57:15For only six months.
2:57:16It wasn't that long, as I recall.
2:57:20Well, maybe you know the difference.
2:57:22It is quite significant.
2:57:29A former vice president is always a live political animal.
2:57:33And therefore, it is a potential end of the day.
2:57:35And it is not there at the end of the day.
2:57:37And that's really the one thing that matters.
2:57:38The former president is finished in politics.
2:57:42You know what I mean?
2:57:43He's going to run.
2:57:44He's no longer going to pay.
2:57:46And therefore, I think those are the outcomes.
2:57:48You think that's the difference?
2:57:49Yeah.
2:57:49Well, there's quite a substantial difference in the two offices, too.
2:57:53Yeah, I'm sure about it.
2:57:54There is.
2:57:55I mean, the former president is in a totally different position.
2:58:00Although he was one of the first people to come in.
3:07:56Well, I'll tell you, there's no profit in those five-man debates like we saw last night.
3:08:01There aren't going to be any debates this time for another reason, is that they aren't going to... Well, I suppose you might pass that bill, or is that right?
3:08:12Can I pass it now, Mr. Marshall?
3:08:15The appeal of 315? 315?
3:08:17Yeah, they could.
3:08:18What the hell?
3:08:19Why not veto it?
3:08:20You don't like it?
3:08:20If they spelled it wrong, if they printed it upside down, any damn thing, just veto it.
3:08:25We'll figure out a reason.
3:08:26Yeah.
3:08:45But it'll be close, I would think.
3:08:47It's just Pastorico.
3:08:50And I would think that the vote will be along the partisan lines, and they'd sustain your veto.
3:08:55You can, I would bet you that, you know, well, they'll go down.
3:08:59The thing is, it's Pastorico.
3:09:01They'll cover the other jackasses, too.
3:09:04So we can say that the Congress has come in, and they come in and ask me to veto it.
3:09:08That's what I do, is say we urge you to veto this bad bill, and so forth, and so forth.
3:09:12Well, we can figure out why people care that much about it.
3:09:16I don't either.
3:09:16I don't either.
3:09:17I don't think the public would, I don't think they would support you in saying, in taking a position that the president should not debate.
3:09:23I don't know what the status of that is.
3:09:25There's too many things that you know that you can't discuss with somebody else.
3:09:32I can say I've changed my, basically, what Johnson would have debated with Goldwater.
3:09:37Kennedy said before he died that he would have debated first, but he didn't.
3:09:41And Bobby Kennedy, on the other hand, contradicted and said America has thousands of years.
3:09:45Of course, he was behind at the time.
3:09:47Or looked like he might be.
3:09:48He might be.
3:09:49But he always just said whatever pleased him.
3:09:52But the final matter is precisely what they say.
3:09:54What did you want to say?
3:09:55It was a good idea and so forth.
3:09:56And she said something like, you know, America doesn't exist.
3:10:00There are just too many matters that I would be only able to discuss with my little brother.
3:10:06Right?
3:10:06I'll be glad.
3:10:10And we're not going to go through that jackass exercise with Herb Clines, too, who mentioned questions in newspapers and so forth.
3:10:20Remember Herb's deal?
3:10:22He had to have done it without his fault.
3:10:25His A.D.s.
3:10:25U.D.
3:10:25and A.D.
3:10:26They all know where I stand.
3:10:27Give them the book.
3:10:28Given the state of the union, right?
3:10:31Given the world we're in.
3:10:32We've got books that thick now where you stand by every category and against the present debate.
3:10:38Your position is so clearly on there.
3:10:40My position is well known.
3:10:42There is no purpose in arguing with the contenders.
3:10:46You take five positions a week around here.
3:10:48We can begin a very different position, too, on that score as we go into the campaign.
3:10:51Can't we leave anything?
3:11:01We just can't look at this campaign the way we looked at any other.
3:11:09We're in a totally different kind of posture.
3:11:27John Mitchell disagrees with Johnson.
3:11:30He thinks they've made it for a client extent.
3:11:36Yeah.
3:11:37So he says, of course, he's betting that on this woman showing up as testifying.
3:11:45And she thinks that she's going to be a good witness?
3:11:47Yeah.
3:11:48Well, in what respect?
3:11:50To say that she didn't write it down, or that she was drunk, or what?
3:11:53Or that she did it for base and dishonest reasons, or some damn thing.
3:11:59What she was doing was writing the kind of memorandum that every stinking dirty lobbyist in this town writes.
3:12:04If you had a pair of glasses and one in front of you, you'd write a few.
3:12:08Not that they base this on us, but they do it, John.
3:12:12That's why we've got to be so careful for lunch, seeing them out, talking to all the pilots in the golf course, anything else.
3:12:20They use you, sir.
3:12:21It's a hell of a lesson, too.
3:12:22We've got to be a little tougher on all of our people in this respect.
3:12:31These sensitive areas...
3:12:34That's one of the reasons I just dumped all that Flannagan stuff over in Congress and whatnot.
3:12:41I'm sure they want to talk to people in the White House and say, fine, but it just isn't in your interest.
3:12:47Mr. Peterson handles this now.
3:12:50Keep him the hell out of it.
3:12:51Right now, particularly, don't get people into the seat of Flannagan.
3:12:56He's just going to hurt us.
3:12:59Great.
3:13:04I need you to look at the background.
3:13:06Work on your face.
3:15:04Well, I've held off talking to him in order to get my facts straight first.
3:15:09And he's a little tender with us about a problem that we've got in the Labor Department right now, and I want to let it cool off just a little bit.
3:15:22Well, I think we can turn that thing around, and it would be very good from the standpoint of Jim Buckley if we could.
3:15:31it would make some real points with him that he needs.
3:15:34And he has to change.
3:15:38But... Well, on the basis of the project which is now proposed is different than the one that was approved.
3:15:45They changed the plans over.
3:15:48And then we would have now to re-review the whole thing.
3:15:51We're going to set it aside and take a new look.
3:15:54I'd like to get Rockefeller in.
3:15:57Oh, we will.
3:15:58Rockefeller.
3:15:59To prove that line.
3:16:01But see, I didn't want to get him all excited about it.
3:16:03I didn't want to get him all excited about it.
3:16:06Let me suggest this.
3:16:08I will do that after the Lord's Prayer.
3:16:10Okay.
3:16:10So that it doesn't sound like we're screwing Lindsay.
3:16:13I gave that to you, didn't I?
3:17:43We'll have to.
3:17:46We'll have to.
3:17:49After April.
3:17:50After April, we'll print everything.
3:17:53We won't print anything before April.
3:17:59We made the law.
3:18:03I think you can say that we're just not geared up to do that.
3:18:12Now, Maury Sands has a whole hat full of problems with these reporting requirements.
3:18:19They're technical.
3:18:21problems of how to perform.
3:18:23They're horrendous.
3:18:24They're really horrendous.
3:18:28They're ridiculous law.
3:18:29And so if you're asked, you can fuzz the thing by saying, Maurice Sands says that the law is very, very difficult to comply with.
3:18:37You've got to reason with that.
3:18:38The problem is it's not in your status.
3:18:42Yes.
3:18:42You've got to supervise it.
3:18:46But I think you could just slide by the question of post-Hartman.
3:18:53or any kind of compliance and just say this is going to be a terribly difficult law to comply with.
3:19:00And we've got to set up special record keeping facilities and all that.
3:19:04And as to past contributions, we just haven't had those kind of records.
3:19:09They're going to have to set up a computer and say, I guess I'm just going to say you'll have to direct that question to Mr. Stans.
3:19:17He's told me that there are real difficulties.
3:19:19I just want you to direct that question to Mr. Stans.
3:19:21I haven't discussed it with him, but I know he will comply with the law.
3:19:25I'm going to stay away from it.
3:19:27That ain't a political question, sir.
3:19:31Well, he'll be able to measure it.
3:19:33how that may be the way that is, just to put it in your political bag, and just say, gentlemen, I told you, I insist on that.
3:19:40All questions on that should be directed to the political managers of my political campaign charities.
3:19:45I don't mean, I don't, yes, you can certainly go and answer any questions that you have on this matter, but I'm not familiar with it.
3:19:54I'm not in a position to answer it.
3:19:56You can ask a question here.
3:19:58I'll just say it that way.
3:20:03If you've established that you aren't going to answer any political questions, stay with that.
3:23:08I think you'll agree, John, that my decision, which this is another thing I was looking over at those news signs, and I mean, I was reading books, the first reading, which before I made the announcement about it, I wasn't paying attention to what happened after that.
3:23:26I was thinking about it.
3:23:28In fact, of course, the people were just practically on the wall then.
3:23:32I said, you've got to answer the question.
3:23:35the press pulling on it and so forth all along.
3:23:40Remember that?
3:23:41It's worked very well.
3:23:42It's great.
3:23:43I just said, now.
3:23:45He said, well, what do you mean?
3:23:46You are not going to talk to him?
3:23:47I said, no.
3:23:50What the hell can they say?
3:23:52So you cite it and you screw it around and it's a terrible thing and the President won't answer political questions.
3:23:59And if they write that, nothing could do any more good.
3:24:01What?
3:24:01What do people think?
3:24:02They want me to talk?
3:24:03Reduce the press competition?
3:24:04It's a terrible thing the President refuses to talk politics.
3:24:07Everybody in the country would say thank you.
3:24:09Hooray, hooray.
3:24:11You know, you pulled something the last time they were in here.
3:24:16It's intriguing.
3:24:17Some fella asked a question, and you said, I'm not going to take that question.
3:24:22I'm not going to answer that question.
3:24:24You went on to ask another.
3:24:26Yeah, I know what I'm getting at.
3:24:28It was a subject about that damn legal aid thing, which I didn't want to get into.
3:24:35And there was a ripple.
3:24:36There was a ripple.
3:24:37There was a ripple.
3:24:39Well, I'm going to use this again, something the press guys won't like.
3:24:44I'm going to use far more comments from now on.
3:24:50There's no comment.
3:24:51I don't know that.
3:24:51They have no right to do that.
3:24:52I'm not going to comment.
3:24:55But that one caught a flat foot.
3:24:57Especially on the in-office thing.
3:24:58It's a little hard.
3:25:00That's why you've got to appear to the answer area.
3:25:02I'm not going to comment.
3:25:03I have nothing to say about that.
3:25:08Well, you remember the days of the old press conferences.
3:25:12Truman's, about half of his answers were no comment.
3:25:17And he was right.
3:25:19Roosevelt, too, needed no comment.
3:25:21Because of the ball blocker asking him questions, no comment.
3:25:24He said, no comment.
3:25:24You just want to ask a question, you should say no comment.
3:25:28We have this phobia now that you must comment on every question.
3:25:33That it's bad to say no comment.
3:25:36So what do they write?
3:25:37They write, sir, he refused to comment, which is fine.
3:25:40Now, sometimes they're particular spies, and I've asked him to do that.
3:25:44He says, well, then they're going to write that the White House refused to comment, and somebody got us to do the White House field line.
3:25:51But that's better than giving them a quote.
3:25:54Isn't it better than giving them a quote?
3:25:56I think it is.
3:25:57It depends on what the quote is, but usually the quote's worse than the no comment.
3:26:01No comment.
3:26:03He usually doesn't get into any worse trouble than if you comment.
3:26:06If you comment, you build a story.
3:26:08If you don't comment, you don't like it.
3:26:10They'll ask me about it.
3:26:10They ask me about the Anderson column on my brother or something like that.
3:26:15I don't want to comment.
3:26:27I think they'll take it just like they did that other one.
3:26:55I mean, you know, and if they don't, they're just going to get a goddamn icy stare, huh?
3:27:01Because you see, I have one commandment to the press is this.
3:27:04They know that they have been unfair, sort of thing.
3:27:07They all know it deep down in their gut.
3:27:12And they also know that I know it.
3:27:13And third, they know I don't care.
3:27:15That, and a third is what kills him.
3:27:18Siding with a bitch named Henry, he said, you know, he said, I don't like that, I don't like that, I feel good about it, but I really feel bad.
3:27:28Sorry, I said, because Henry or somebody else said that President Evers called him, but he was very solid.
3:27:33He called me once, and something that I heard about somebody else, he thought it was nice.
3:27:43That's it.
3:27:44You understand?
3:27:46By the man in this office.
3:27:57Johnson went too far, because he made it so personal.
3:28:01But I know, anyhow, they know that I don't give a shit what they write, and I don't.
3:28:06I always have to know what they write, because I know that I have to counteract it.
3:28:10But if you ever let the press know that they're getting under your high, that they're going to write this thing,
3:28:17They didn't build up too big, John.
3:28:19They really had them.
3:28:20And also, they're not that decent people.
3:28:23They're not that good.
3:28:24I had a delicious moment the other night with Raleigh Evans.
3:28:28Oh, gosh.
3:28:29He started to apologize a little bit for being rough in his book.
3:28:36And I said, Raleigh, you know, I didn't read your book.
3:28:39And he was just totally dumbfounded.
3:28:42Hope you laughed right there.
3:28:43I did.
3:28:44I didn't read it.
3:28:46I didn't.
3:28:47I refused.
3:28:47Everybody said, I've got to read Raleigh.
3:28:50That's the other thing.
3:28:52I've got to read Evans and Noble.
3:28:55I've apparently got to do this letter.
3:29:00I've got to read everybody else.
3:29:03Screw it.
3:29:03I don't understand.
3:29:05Why should I?
3:29:09Well,
3:29:11I guess I hadn't either, as a matter of fact.
3:29:13I read a part of it.
3:29:14Well, there are all sorts of books and so forth and so on.
3:29:18Did any of the books come out that we were supposed to go out reading with?
3:29:22No, none of them came out.
3:29:25Do you see if Kissinger wants to come in now before I leave?
3:29:28If not, it's all right.
3:29:31I'll get him out at dinner.
3:29:32There's no hurry.
3:29:33They're out.
3:29:34Now we've still got Jeff Hart's book coming.
3:29:37We've got Keough's book coming.
3:29:39Keough's book's out.
3:29:40Is it?
3:29:41Yeah.
3:29:41I saw it on the airplane.
3:29:43Very good.
3:29:44Is it?
3:29:45Yeah.
3:29:45Good.
3:29:46Very good.
3:29:47And then we've got Lasky's book may or may not make it.
3:29:50I guess it's going to.
3:29:51It turned out to be a...
3:29:54It's a disaster.
3:29:56Sapphire is going back to it and rewriting it for him.
3:30:00Oh, that's what turned out.
3:30:03Lasky's book turned out to be about 7,000 pages.
3:30:05They transcribed the tapes.
3:30:07It just kind of wallows away.
3:30:12We actually have a good book.
3:30:13It's quite a good book.
3:30:16Keogh's book is really pretty good, and I overheard Capwell and Kirpoyne talking about it.
3:30:22Really?
3:30:22And Capwell was telling Kirpoyne about it.
3:30:26I don't mean we'll have it, but we'll sell it.
3:30:29I'll tell you what we'll sell is that little man on both sides of China.
3:30:33You think it'll sell?
3:30:34Their original old run for the first printing was 375,000.
3:30:41And they upped it to $450,000 before they started the run.
3:30:43Just on the basis of their own advance orders.
3:30:46And, you know, Bannon Books isn't about to run books that they have to throw away.
3:30:52So they expect to move a half a million of it on the first printing, and they'll move, I'm sure they'll move it on the second printing.
3:31:02That book is going to have great value.
3:31:05to have a great sale.
3:31:08Yes, because it's got good color pictures that people can keep, and it's got some story about it.
3:31:12It's a great souvenir kind of thing of an experience people went through themselves.
3:31:20Well, okay.
3:31:21You let me know in the morning.
3:31:23Is there nothing further that I can do?
3:31:26Well, we've got an answer.
3:31:28I'll do a draft answer.
3:31:31Who's in charge now?
3:31:32Wally Johnson.
3:31:33Wally Johnson.
3:31:34Yeah, under your direction.
3:31:34Right.
3:31:37Yeah, until it's bussing things out of the way, I can't very well do any more than just kind of keep track of it as it goes along.
3:31:45But you'll put all the backstopping as he needs it?
3:31:48Well, I don't want you to get into it, because for that reason, I knew that you were bussing, and that's more important.
3:31:55But let's figure the bussing for Thursday and Friday.
3:31:58I mean, I think that Tuesday was a little too hard to explain.
3:32:01Well, let's try to be precise toward the end of the week.
3:32:06Yeah, we'll think about it tomorrow.
3:32:08You talk to Rod.
3:32:09I will got the other half of the end.
3:32:15I'll do it if he feels the time.
3:32:18We got the military to meet us.
3:32:20They postponed the meeting until April 15th.
3:32:25I'm certain what the Chinese is.
3:32:28The Chinese, I'm sure, are going to let us know, because they said they had to deliver it before five tomorrow evening, that they were going to make a major blast and I'll send their paper somewhere.
3:32:41I'm sure that they are now behind the postponement because they only accepted it last Tuesday.
3:32:46Nothing happened between Tuesday and Sunday.
3:32:49The North Vietnamese accepted it on Tuesday.
3:32:53They reconfirmed it on Friday.
3:32:56And the only thing that could have happened is... We confirmed it on Friday, and the only thing that could have happened is that the Chinese told them, you cannot negotiate so close to us and give them additional reassurances.
3:33:13They had...
3:33:15I checked with Logan.
3:33:16We had told them that we would under no circumstances agree not to Taiwan.
3:33:22I think what you said they could have left with us
3:33:24because everyone knows Scott is a bad one.
3:33:28But when that got into the press, I'm sure they had an informant of a plan.
3:33:35Well, I didn't see what came out of the statement.
3:33:39Was there a State Department spokesman, or was it a politician?
3:33:43Bill Bray was asked at the press conference.
3:33:45Who?
3:33:46Bray, the Indian spokesman.
3:33:48They still have him?
3:33:50And he said flatly,
3:33:54When we're talking about withdrawal, we're talking about the Vietnam contention.
3:34:00I had stayed way away from that in Shanghai.
3:34:03I said it's related to conditions all over Asia and India, the whole world.
3:34:11Well, when I was with the leaders, I said I was in the way that I pointed out that we had only 8,000 there, that two-thirds of them were there as a result of that.
3:34:21I didn't indicate that we were going to take them out at that point.
3:34:25No, no, no, that was a little bit, you've got to get rid of Scott, Freddie.
3:34:28That's a legitimate interpretation.
3:34:31Yeah, of course, the leaders, nothing came out of the leaders.
3:34:35The Dow Jones close to 950.18 of 775, which is 21 million shares, which puts it only 68 cents behind, 64 cents behind the April of 71 high, which is 950.82.
3:34:52April of 71.
3:34:54April of last year was that high.
3:34:58That's good.
3:35:00So everybody owns two stocks.
3:35:02It's a strong line trust.
3:35:03It's a strong market size bond.
3:35:05It's a strong line trust.
3:35:09And it's getting rich, but it's getting tough.
3:35:15Well, that's part of the problem we have.
3:35:17We just have to live with it.
3:35:21It shows our timing of when it's done.
3:35:25Because it means we won't see the Vietnamese select of 15 to close to the Russian summit.
3:35:29Get it done before...
3:35:33So the Chinese put them off to this one.
3:35:35What did they say as a reason?
3:35:37They gave the reason aerial action over the weekend, which is nonsense.
3:35:43I couldn't understand why this morning they complained about it.
3:35:46And I checked at the Pentagon.
3:35:47There was nothing unusual this weekend.
3:35:51No, the two.
3:35:52I have heard what they said.
3:35:53Well, the Chinese invited us, you remember, for an aerial action, which we found not taking place.
3:35:57There was no aerial action.
3:35:59And while we were there, remember, he said, you're bombing for Vietnam right now.
3:36:05I said, you said no, we weren't.
3:36:07No, I am, well, I'll have it confirmed within the hour.
3:36:10I'll get the message from the Chinese, but I don't have to get it confirmed because it's so closely tied to the publication of their newspapers.
3:36:20that I know what it's got to be.
3:36:22Well, they had told us that they would respond to things in case they did.
3:36:28And they had told me that the reason they didn't want to break their sanctions diminished in the communique is because they were afraid it would be linked to Vietnam.
3:36:37And I told them it would never be linked by us to Vietnam.
3:36:40And...
3:36:41But what do you mean?
3:36:43Are they making up Maya's...
3:36:46I don't guarantee...
3:36:48If they attack that, they'll attack the state.
3:36:51They won't attack you.
3:36:54And that would be a good lesson to study.
3:37:01Why the hell would the state say that?
3:37:03They know it's true.
3:37:04It was totally, utterly gratuitous.
3:37:06And there's more.
3:37:07When you said it, I turned to Raj and I said, for God's sake, don't ever let them say this outside of this room.
3:37:15Uh, and, uh... What you said was, and I thought that wasn't played very big.
3:37:27That was just played very little at the time.
3:37:29Very little.
3:37:33In fact, that was before the...
3:37:40I guess on Tuesday.
3:37:41So they had money and tried to react to that earlier.
3:37:46The same thing was said Thursday, is that right?
3:37:49They won't attack you.
3:37:51That I'm sure of.
3:37:53That's true.
3:37:53They're not ready for that yet.
3:37:55And maybe I'm wrong, but the fact that they were both delivering their messages almost simultaneously.
3:38:04All right.
3:38:06I think we should push it back two days just to show them that, say, the 17th.
3:38:24Well, no, they said the 15th, so we can't do it before the 15th.
3:38:30Well, why not?
3:38:33so that you could cover that.
3:38:35Well, actually, on the 14th, I had promised Maxfield I'd give a speech at the University of Montana, so I could go out there and leave from there.
3:38:44Sure thing, because that's not bad.
3:38:47Go from the 16th area.
3:38:51You're a month away from Russia at that time.
3:38:55We won't get it settled anymore.
3:38:57It means we've lost momentum and we'll lose the impact.
3:39:01It would have been just a tense strike to have Lita Tosha over the next week.
3:39:07That's true.
3:39:08That would have just shut out everybody.
3:39:13And there's no sense worrying about that now, I understand.
3:39:20And it has to be this because
3:39:22They accepted it on Tuesday, and Walter said he's never been so well-received.
3:39:26Friday he went in to introduce his, his accession, and he's never been so well-received.
3:39:34So, I mean, they're driven, they're tough, but they're not crazy.
3:39:40I mean, they don't have to send a message on Tuesday to cancel it on Sunday, unless the Chinese can't come to them.
3:39:47The Chinese might have told them they
3:39:53They're blasting us, and they probably wanted that to sink in in our domestic opinion.
3:39:59Blasting us?
3:40:01The Chinese might just blast us for hitting our Vietnam.
3:40:06I think we've got to get the Chinese on our back on Vietnam now for a while.
3:40:11They have to clear themselves.
3:40:15And they could really turn things up here.
3:40:18Well, let's see.
3:40:19I don't think they're going to make deliberate trouble quickly.
3:40:24Well, we should see.
3:40:25It's one of the risks.
3:40:28Well, it is, but we have to get our people under control.
3:40:31It's just too dangerous, isn't it?
3:40:36But if we get a good message that I can send to State, I'll send it over to Bill.
3:40:42From that?
3:40:47Yeah.
3:40:47But in fact, he'll still have to show up around the 10th or 11th.
3:40:52We may need more than a few now.
3:40:55There are other sides to this, too.
3:40:56So we'll see.
3:40:59So it's only really three weeks, a little more than three weeks?
3:41:08My guess is that it might very well be that rather than just .
3:41:14But their objection, rather than being on that issue,
3:41:20might well be on the Taiwan.
3:41:23The fact that it's been reiterated so much is concerning me.
3:41:28That would help us.
3:41:29That would hurt us so much.
3:41:31And they can't get a big argument started in this country on that.
3:41:37Well, it wouldn't be bad if they started hitting on Vietnam.
3:41:40No, but what if they, I'm not so sure, on Vietnam, what if they say that they still are supporting the people's revolutionary movement?
3:41:50That we are blood-sucking warmongers, that we are bombing and there's no peace.
3:41:58They could just repeat the North Vietnamese line, which they've never done for six months.
3:42:06We have to learn to live with that.
3:42:08Of course, they didn't decide to do that and say that this... Nobody had pretended to communicate that our differences in Vietnam had changed.
3:42:19Yeah.
3:42:20Right?
3:42:20Right.
3:42:20Never eat from Vietnam anyway.
3:42:24For the weakness of this.
3:42:25Well, you, in your background, are making the point, didn't you, Trevor, strongly that Vietnam was not something that was...
3:42:34Oh, I have stayed way away from it.
3:42:37No, no, no, I don't mean about that.
3:42:38I meant in terms of this whole idea of setting us up for settlement in Vietnam.
3:42:45No, I made clear that we were settling in Thailand.
3:42:47And also that the whole thing was that their position hadn't changed in Vietnam.
3:42:52Oh, yeah, I made that clear.
3:42:55I don't think they have any complaints about my background unless that I gave a few tidbits of the negotiation, but they never got into the trend.
3:43:06But we'll know by age, so there's no sense worrying.
3:43:08It's always interesting to speculate about it.
3:43:12But my instinct is that it's Vietnam that they have to clear their score.
3:43:19And they did at least clear our score in Taiwan, clear that in my department.
3:43:25You know, a little quick pro quo.
3:43:28And my guess is, there's just, I find no other motive.
3:43:31I told Haig immediately when these two came and said it might
3:43:37At best, a postponement.
3:43:39It may be a cancellation of the March 20th meeting.
3:43:50Maybe they probably would have announced it as a cancellation.
3:43:55No.
3:43:55They may still want to have a meeting.
3:43:56Yeah, but they're not doing as much as long.
3:43:58It was in our interest to keep confused what happened in Peking and to keep Peking from not making a flat, all-out statement.
3:44:06because that undermined their psychological campaign to the extent that Beijing had never since my visit in July made a total unequivocal statement in support of Hanoi.
3:44:22They had gone nine-tenths of the way, but never completely.
3:44:29And so to the extent that they're getting that statement,
3:44:33They might just have decided to let that sink in and see what that could turn out to be.
3:44:44Their reason for calling the meeting before Peking was to give the impression that they were not affected by anything we might do in Peking.
3:44:53They had trusted Peking completely.
3:44:56They would have not asked for the meeting just before we went to Peking.
3:45:01So they wanted to show that they weren't pushed by anything we did.
3:45:05So to the extent that the meeting took place close to Peking, it showed their residual distrust of the Chinese.
3:45:12To the extent that they feel free to move it away, they must have received some reassurance.
3:45:20So maybe Peking doesn't even know the meeting will take place, but... We didn't tell them.
3:45:26We didn't tell them, but they may want to soften us up a bit.
3:45:34Segment at 7. Who do you sign up for, so to say?
3:45:40Well, I send up John Howell.
3:45:44Sorry.
3:45:45He can't defend it anyway.
3:45:47He just picked it up.
3:45:48But I think it must be of some importance, or their ambassador would not insist on delivering it personally.
3:45:58It has administrative stuff for number two people.
3:46:00I may be totally wrong.
3:46:01Maybe they're just telling me...
3:46:04I had a, I thought you knew, Buchanan was going to stay, so that's what he did.
3:46:10Well, he would have been childish, totally wrong.
3:46:13But he was totally able to, he's a, unbelievable, and he's a, he's a, he's a, doesn't just tie one thing, but he,
3:46:31I didn't think I should have toasted Joe and mine and also Tom.
3:46:37And, man, we shouldn't have followed their cousin and taken classes.
3:46:41Now, what if in the name of God, Melanie and I should not have sat in the ballad and clapped or reacted?
3:46:47What in the name of Christ would we do?
3:46:49Hell, when I saw Spartacus, which the Russians rewrote and had its slaves with, and then I cheered.
3:46:57What the hell do you do?
3:47:00But it does show you the mentality that is quite typical of the group.
3:47:07But it's a small group, Henry, in there.
3:47:10I just spoke to the board of directors of the VFW, and I got a standing ovation.
3:47:14I've got to go over there tomorrow and make an award to Dr. Martin.
3:47:23I'm going to talk about this.
3:47:24But I was thinking, of course,
3:47:29Well, we cannot expect, Henry, that the people in China that is going to be leeches and creaking.
3:47:35No.
3:47:35Anymore is Russia.
3:47:36Russia kicks us around out there.
3:47:38Oh, yeah.
3:47:39They kick us around virtually every day.
3:47:42We don't know that well.
3:47:43We're still going to have the Russians somewhere.
3:47:45Oh, yeah.
3:47:45That's no problem.
3:47:46But one of our great advantages was the Chinese ambiguity about the real North Vietnamese position.
3:47:55And...
3:47:56I don't care what they could say about Korea and Japan, what they want, they wouldn't do that.
3:47:59They may not.
3:47:59I knew what it was, and I told all of them that they showed up in the state of getting somebody along in the service.
3:48:22He was disturbed because
3:48:26He, uh, felt that he should have disappeared, and he did.
3:48:33I didn't use the study.
3:48:34When you saw the study, it was just impossible.
3:48:36It was impossible.
3:48:37Toast and so forth and so on was unbelievable.
3:48:39And then he thought about the community.
3:48:42He said he talked to you about it, that he thought we should have, that we could have had a stronger session in Japan.
3:48:48Apparently, you were used to it.
3:48:49It would be a nice time.
3:48:50We should have used the People's Republic of China and named China.
3:48:56I carried it to him.
3:48:58I said, Baba, for Christ's sakes,
3:49:01And it would just be a nice song.
3:49:02He says he fought the death and died there.
3:49:04He got that word in there.
3:49:06We always used the people's republic of China when we referred to it as a government.
3:49:09We used the word China when we referred to it as a place.
3:49:12And I did that in my own state because I was extremely careful.
3:49:15And you, in fact, are in the one place where I didn't have it where it said the leaders of China.
3:49:19Yeah.
3:49:20You made me put in the People's Republic of China, and we did it.
3:49:23The People's Republic of China.
3:49:26Which we did do.
3:49:27But he had sort of gotten this thing that's going on.
3:49:31And then the other thing was Japan.
3:49:33And he felt that he could have made that stronger by, yes, he said, well, if Henry had just, I was there, he was willing to work, he could have just given it to me.
3:49:44He said, I could have written it, you know, written it.
3:49:48much stronger.
3:49:48I thought, for Christ's sakes, you can't take somebody along here who doesn't know anything about it.
3:49:57And he didn't have no foreign policy experience.
3:50:00He couldn't help you with that communication.
3:50:03I thought you were close-legged.
3:50:05I said, the reason we didn't put up the defense treaty with Japan is that we then had to discuss the defense treaty with Taiwan.
3:50:13What we said about Japan was we have to
3:50:17We have, we play the greatest stress on the continuation of our foundation.
3:50:22We will develop the existing closure.
3:50:25You must have shown very great consideration for Pat because you, because all of a sudden Pat said that you had told him that these were good suggestions and you wished you'd worked them in or something like that.
3:50:39Well, I might have leaned over a little bit.
3:50:42Let me tell you, it's small things.
3:50:45He's, he's, he's
3:50:48He said, his head is wrong, but his heart is in the right place.
3:50:52Oh, yes.
3:50:53That's why I gave him so much time.
3:50:55But I also said to Homer, you know, you've got to remember now, where the hell was, frankly, our whole, the whole right wing, including the man in the restaurant, very funny.
3:51:10everything from Cambodia to ABM and all the rest.
3:51:14Telling them about beating the drums and so forth.
3:51:17You know, Henry Leeds carried the goddamn thing along.
3:51:22That's excellent.
3:51:23Instead of the Memorandum of Rogers, I just... No, I thought it was much better.
3:51:27It wasn't much better, but I mean, it sounds much better.
3:51:30I had just saw it over the weekend.
3:51:32But he laid it out there, and I think it's very clear.
3:51:36I thought it was much better.
3:51:37I said, it's true that bureaucracy...
3:51:43He's going to have an open press conference tomorrow.
3:51:47What the hell is the reason for an open press conference?
3:51:51It's ego, isn't it?
3:51:52There's no reason for him to have an open press conference.
3:51:55There was no reason for the bloody State Department to start holding forth on the communique last week.
3:52:02It was just to get even for my background.
3:52:06Was it actually your background?
3:52:08It was on the Thursday morning.
3:52:12As a delegate, if you do get this kind of a thing from them, I would get a message back immediately and hard and say, we told you not to pay attention to what Congress did.
3:52:22They'd say, I said it.
3:52:23But if they do say that, you could say, we told you this was a senator who reported any message that was inaccurate.
3:52:33Because they haven't got me on anything with the press.
3:52:36I consider it almost out of the question.
3:52:39But when this thing happened, I called Hogan with it.
3:52:42He called me.
3:52:44We both recognized that it was a disaster.
3:52:51But let's make sure that that's what it is.
3:52:53You mean it stays right back?
3:52:55You're talking about a floor that should be out.
3:52:57Yeah, because it was in the press on Friday morning.
3:53:00Friday morning.
3:53:01Oh, you were a little considerate.
3:53:03You just didn't express as great a concern.
3:53:06But I knew.
3:53:06No, because I saw no sense in worrying you.
3:53:08I knew it was back.
3:53:09I figured that would either break it, or we were so close to breaking it that...
3:53:16But maybe they're just yelling at the Taiwan thing, which in a way would be a blessing.
3:53:20If the two aren't in order.
3:53:24Well, if the defense treaty is not in order, then...
3:53:28Resignation.
3:53:30That wouldn't, that wouldn't hurt.
3:53:33Well, the only thing is, they cannot say, they can't say that they have a commitment from us that we will withdraw.
3:53:42Oh, that we deny it?
3:53:43Yeah.
3:53:44We just don't want to be in a public fight.
3:53:47They'll never, Mr. President, they will under no circumstances, they have too much investment, they will not take you on.
3:53:53That I do not believe.
3:53:55Within a week of leaving China, they will not get into a... Well, particularly because when they say...
3:54:02The world, obviously, on their side is goddamn good.
3:54:08No, I don't think they'll do that.
3:54:10Yeah.
3:54:11So I'm not concerned about that part of it.
3:54:14And the Russian attack is one they should enjoy.
3:54:18No, the Russian attack doesn't bother them.
3:54:20No, I don't think they mind this.
3:54:21No, what bothers them is tying you not to it.
3:54:24And it's become so much, every newspaper now picked up after the State Department.
3:54:30They didn't pick up yours very much.
3:54:32In fact, ISIL didn't see it in many respects at all, but they picked theirs out.
3:54:37It was just Scott that leaked it.
3:54:38Yeah, it was Scott.

Nixon, Kissinger & Haldeman on ITT controversy and 1972 election

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