Conversation 679-008

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It would have been hard to get back in gear and keep going.

started a bunch of people got cold sometimes uh jim i just wanted to know that they're talking around the boys

that you do a lot of talking and you deserve a, I don't know, a Purple Heart, we can't give you that, but for 48 days in China, that must be a record to live there.

So we want you to know we appreciate it and we hope you recover.

Yeah.

Well, you had a great experience and they tell me that the Chinese all think you're half Chinese and that proves you did the right job.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's possible under certain circumstances.

Thank you a lot, Guy.

The problem here is such a terribly personal thing to me.

I don't know if I'd still be in a position to be in that kind of situation.

Can he, can he only put it in terms of... Jesus Christ.

You know, I'm pretty impressed.

I, I still love this position.

When I returned, remember, I had lived into the speech the fact the Secretary of State was at a meeting with his people.

What do I think of Christ?

And what can you do about it?

Why don't you just say, yes, I did.

And he thinks that we should have stopped the cars and waited for the secondaries to take them to the runway.

Which I don't understand.

I mean, well, plus Joe made it damn clear that it was only you.

The personal requirement.

And later we have another meeting.

They didn't have it.

The guy's supposed to have it.

No, he didn't.

We ended it that way.

He was down on the left side of the edge.

He can't eat everything in terms of food.

I must say, all these articles he's talking about, I haven't seen.

I think he's going back to the ones that ran while we were gone.

I think he's looking at the clippings, you know, from that.

When we were waiting on the dollar, they marked it up.

Sure.

You want to take a couple of hours for that?

No, I mean with time.

of the economy, make sure you get more than I am.

And I'm just trying to think of those four things.

You can just say that I am being an economic guy.

That's what I'm trying to do.

I'm an economic guy.

Ways to build up a way to be economic.

Wage, price bullet, and so on and so on.

It starts at 3 o'clock and I open it at 4.30.

We'll call him since he's cleared at 4.30.

When I go to the last hour and a half, I will take the initiative and grab the object and call him.

How's that sound?

Okay.

I think that the best thing, if you agree, is for you to sit down and have a dream.

I think you've pretty much got to have somebody sit down and if you want me to, I'll stay with this hard line.

I mean, you'll raise these problems.

I can go right back to what the answers ought to be.

I think you've got to make it real life, Tom, that he doesn't have it.

he may realize the reason they aren't.

He's smart enough to see that.

And that may be what he wants to be looked up to, really.

I think that's a, something that, or, or is it, or is it just his passion, his interest, his interest.

I think that's more a, his interest.

Well, Paul, you can't blame his interest on this, on anything.

Sir Henry has just, in his background, he made himself subservient to Rogers.

He said, I got instructions regularly from the President and Secretary of State.

But also, I felt that it was a little bit breaching for me when I had Rogers urging

I don't really think anybody's going to be very excited about why he wasn't in the Mount meeting.

First of all, there's no money in the budget.

There's no money in the bill.

There's no question that they just set the course.

But I mean, it wasn't a subsidy.

It didn't, I mean, that's a question that, you know, always in the story, whatever they are, are being fed on the state.

I mean, sure, they're being fed.

The state is being downgraded.

The county is being downgraded.

I think he's not the world record on that.

They are putting up, they did put out this one, that Alstom had, that Secretary of State could have done all this.

Well, it was all really done by, no, it's more that it was done by Dissinger, and the state had warned you of the dangers if you were going, and sure enough, the dangers were very real.

The state was right that maybe it would have been better for you not to have gone, but then he goes into the things that may have come out of this, do come out of it, then it would have been well worth having gone.

Yeah, he had a much worse problem when he called Henry.

He said he still had lunch with him, but he was going to write a bad column.

I understand the point.

Well, that's the attack on Sunderland and so forth.

Yeah.

The comms generally knew that it's awfully hard to attend this meeting.

There's no way this could have been done without Mr. Conrad.

So, they don't understand the totalitarian system.

The totalitarian system, not from the Secretary of State.

Period.

That's all there is to it.

And that's proof that it's where they put their Foreign Minister, and they have proof of that.

So they, therefore, .

Of course, there is a tendency, too, for this is because of the anger zone.

I told him about this, and the one thing that has not come through here is the fact that the president has done the thing when he was there, and it's just a vision.

We know he handled these and all that stuff, and you've got to realize that's a problem, because it's one of the lines above.

It's basically a, you know, it's not going to be on time, and this is the question.

I know he lends it, you know.

Yes he does.

He knows what happens.

But it's hard for him to

Just say it, unless he just gets cranked into it.

Then he says it very well.

He just says it in his position.

And he was, you know, how he can do the best job for you when he's on the hill.

He'll want to tell you what a great job you did at this restaurant.

And he wants to make it be, you know, he doesn't...

He wants to be able to say that he was talking with the president.

I've just been a little tired of the business of coming in every time.

And you're the crazy guy who wants to advise you something, but not me.

I don't call everybody every time.

It's like Bryce Harlow's business.

You don't do that, Bob.

Bill expects it, doesn't he?

Very well.

Or I, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't,

All three networks led with ITT.

Yeah.

Pretty good, because when the doctor started on that, Deidre Beard didn't mean what she said in the memo.

She told him that that wasn't the case and told her she had to go through channels.

He refused to talk to her and told her to quit lobbying.

Essentially the story, yesterday's story was, was shooting down Nita Beard's family.

And then of course he also said that she was having, had some heavy drinking and took tranquilizers and was on and off mental state.

So the doctor that's treating her in Colorado said that he's her doctor now and he wouldn't say that was true at all.

That's good.

And we checked on that.

None of those things, as far as I can check, was the Democrats.

It's overruled because there wasn't one in Florida that made that charge.

We have separate funds for that.

Whether we have it or not, I can't talk to John.

In Florida, there is no writing.

So you can't do anything in Wisconsin.

There's native.

So we'll have a order from our own golf.

I don't know where it's coming from right now.

I think we've got to, where you can write it, we've got to get a push for getting some.

And so that, I mean this campaign's been, let's say we're in a procedure right now where we put the heat on Democratic candidates for not reporting on the campaign.

You know this bill is very complicated and all that sort of periodism and thinking to the faculty, rather than waiting for them to talk about court money standards, I mean, you've got to have somebody ready to demand and so forth before they're carrying out the lawsuit.

All of that could have all been a big deal in the last

I don't know if you can answer that.

I don't know if you can.

That's probably one thing that the free press didn't want to do.

You saw the free press didn't want it, no?

I didn't think you did, but I just wanted to be sure.

That little town, yeah.

You swept it.

Yeah.

Well, we built it, yeah.

Well, it's funny though, you'd think that made some difference.

That's on every newscast this morning.

There are no Democrats voting?

Yeah, there are.

And no, the Democrats, there were some Democrats, the Democrats voted, must be most of them, the government got several or something, they were split, but Nixon got the entire vote.

What's your thoughts now on whether we want to or if we want to pursue that ABC News documentary on Mrs. Nixon in China, which they wanted to do?

I think shooting without us is a possibility.

We said we wouldn't commit to it, you know, before the chair, but we were favorably on it.

I mean, I can think of a whole lot of names here.

He's talking about now doing his thing the last week in March, which seems to me might be a pretty good idea, which sort of revives the general debt problem, and so it's not reviving it.

We've got this down problem to build, and that's going to make that work system.

And also, Kissinger and Ewa, they will spend most of this time on Kissinger and the communicating.

That's not going to work.

I wonder...

Maybe some, I don't think that people would attend to, but I don't think that you can avoid that kind of thing.

And if it has the effect of your building up messages, which you can if you're very involved, that not only, not only does it fix it in a variety of ways, but also it does not help us.

We don't need to build up messages.

That's right.

That's the point.

You see, you've got to analyze it in terms of, does it help the president?

Right?

Well, it would if that's the only way it goes, and maybe that's the only way it can go.

You think that's the only way?

Yeah, because I think Scali can help with Calc to begin with, and I think Scali can help with that, yeah.

I don't know.

Why don't you ask Scali if he can let us pass over a few things?

more of these things they like to be asked.

And what they have to understand, they have a lot of information.

They reported this idea that they were going to have a school district for the purpose, a school district for the purpose of extradition because

and all that related to the experiences are, are, are education is enhanced by multiracial experience.

But that certainty, that's present in their lives.

It's there, that's why you're going to find, well,

If there's a natural multiracial discrepancy, I think that's probably, I think it probably is better for kids.

Now those are some blacks and some Mexicans in our life.

As contrast to going to a pure white school where you have no exposure to any other, you know, you're exposed to Jews and things like that, you know, Catholic, Christian, Christian scientists and all that, but

But I sure as hell don't think you should artificially create that.

I think that maybe this is the artificiality to override the positives of the mix.

So far, I don't think very much.

I think there's a possibility that

keep it riding long enough that they can keep tying the White House in, which they haven't.

They've gone very far, and they don't glorify them, and that's why.

Well, there'll be more of them before there's less of them.

It's part of the campaign.

Chris.

You bet that I thought it was from somebody who was supposed to be your friend.

You're very dedicated to the Father.

I can't tell you the Father.

And it appeared, actually, the memo she wrote is

is exactly what you said it's exactly what you what a lobbyist does right because they always it's like our congressional type people when the vote's going to go right they always rush in to make it look like they did the thing to make it go right i don't mean that they always do that but it's often they do make it go right lobbyists prove that they can contest whatever gets done whether they did it or not

Coming back to facts with you, you can also discuss that.

But that's looking frankly at her evidence or whatever you want to call it.

I don't see how you can do anything but maybe downgrade it a bit by having her go on a documentary.

I wouldn't have a seat, yeah.

If they want to do one without her, we can't stop them.

You know, without her going on, I don't think she means anything by going on.

I think that she has been off, has been in arms, told her something.

I rather think that it just shouldn't be done.

It looks like they're trying to milk it.

I agree.

Don't worry, they'll try to say we've been trying to milk it anyway.

We haven't.

We've really been god damn good about it.

Right.

We made a report to the nation.

We're better off not knocking into it.

Sure.

Like a report to the nation.

They could just say, why don't you report to the nation?

Well, that's the game.

Well, they said it's going to knock it.

Yeah.

They didn't say anything.

Sure.

It's my idea.

He just can't.

They haven't even noticed how to do it.

Well, he's got a problem.

He wants to know how to do it.

What's your argument for it?

First, it's a little hell of an impressive job.

What will he sell that we need to have sold?

What will he sell that will assist it?

Is it going to build up the enemy that Rogers is?

Second, it will in a million times, but it won't really.

The center will do a good job of building a barrier.

Let's put it that way.

And the second point,

It has the possibility of doing a good job of building up the president.

And that's the only way it's going to be done on television.

Nobody else can.

Nobody else is there.

We forget the kind of audience we need, right?

Yeah.

and doing it on television, if he would do it.

It would be good.

It would depend.

Calc zeroed in and stayed on substance and Henry isn't, there's no question Henry won't turn a question, won't twist the question as he should.

I'm not lying.

Yeah.

If Henry were to do it like Lyman, he'd fly it in there and give the answers regardless of what the question is.

If I have an image too much of a professor on that, he'll answer the question in total detail.

On the other hand, it will also, to the extent that there is any feeling of, you know, what was done, was it worth it and all that, it'll sure answer that.

The other plus to it, especially because of that last week in March, is that by then the China trip is basically going to be pretty dead in level of consciousness.

And it's not at all a bad thing to remind people of once in a while.

And it would get several million people who would be reminded.

It can only be positive.

Henry won't do anything negative.

he might not do as much in the direction we would want positively.

On that, you come out with everything.

The only argument against it is that Bill won't like it.

And that would be an overriding argument if there were no positives.

It seems to me there are some positives.

There are potentially some very good positives and there are certainly some, at least, middle level positives.

Bill can't tell the story of what a great child the person is, and he can do it agreeably, but not with any great believability.

And in the original exploration arc, there's some

One, Bill's thing of his being down there, he has been in the eyes of the intelligentsia, but not in any way that was avoidable.

He has been because they see him for what he is.

They tried to get him on the Sunday talk shows this Sunday and none of them would take him.

Now, a good part of the reason for that was the New Hampshire primary.

That was this past Sunday.

And I think that's the reason.

But Turner was a big guy.

I would bet you if we tried to get Henry on, we would have gotten him on.

I don't know.

I won't have a way to get him on.

Well, I don't intend to.

We did try to get him on.

But we thought it might be a good idea to have Bill on.

To talk about the sort of personal impression stuff.

And to build Bill's ego up.

He doesn't know we tried.

And he doesn't know we failed.

But you see, they had...

One of them, Edwin Boskey and Ashford Vaughn.

They had to do that.

That's a dead story after last Sunday.

I don't think they ever said that they were Italian.

The good thing is that you are able to talk to Bill as frankly as you are.

You are his equal, and that's what you should do.

Unfortunately, I think he knows who you are.

You're not unfriendly to him.

You're not bullshitting him.

He's getting straight.

And Bill, he's a hero.

He is a man who, of course, just revels.

And I flattered him plenty over the time I worked with him and all that, but...

He walked right into that room yesterday, and I just happened to call because I was reading an Alstock article, so it was right in front of me on my desk, and I just picked it up and read it.

He was saying, we're getting some bad stuff, and I said, we sure are.

This kind of crap doesn't help a bit.

It started through this thing.

It just doesn't add a lot to the luster of the president's trip for your department to be telling the world that it shouldn't have gone.

I don't think it hurts the trip.

One, I owe it to the chief.

No.

I, because Colin's not hurt.

I don't think it makes one drop's worth of difference.

But it was a way to point to Bill that they could be helping the dance band.

Henry's right.

And Bill himself, if he would just take the positive side of himself and make it look like he was a part of it, then who the hell's...

Instead of apologizing, saying, geez, I spent 27 minutes with Joe in line on the train going through the bathroom or something,

Instead of that, he'd say, we accomplished these great things here.

He doesn't have to say, I did this.

We all worked together.

He should say, we.

He should say, this was a great accomplishment.

And he should feel the presence.

I wanted to say, the State Department warned against this last year.

That is pure crime.

You know they didn't.

That's right.

No, this thing implies that there was a big opus from the State Department itemizing all the pitfalls that would be in, which, you know, is so pathetically obvious that how it ended up.

Obviously, they're pitfalls.

Obviously, it's going to disturb the Taiwanese that you're going to... Part of that.

And all this stuff upsets our Asian allies a little bit.

Well, that's Tommy's point on all these things.

The whole State Department thinks don't upset anybody ever.

And that's exactly the way never to make any progress.

Well, Tom totally disagrees.

Totally disagrees.

His whole point is you've got to upset them.

We've got to look to our interests on some of these things.

We've got to play the power where the power is.

If he goes too far, he gets probably, I'm sure he does for some of them.

Because he just, he has a deep-seated hatred for foreigners.

He does.

But he's a patriot in a too limited sense, and that's something that he's ever going to move up.

He's got to rise above somehow.

He's got to open his blinders a little bit.

The other thing is that Bilbo is going to, especially he's going to want to be in the planning sessions.

He's going to push himself.

I think Henry Charter is concerned about

How Bill's going to push himself to bring in the preliminary visions, all that sort of thing.

He's now obsessed with not letting himself get put in the background.

He's going to overreact because he doesn't handle it in the right way.

You know, you tried to get him in the sessions on time, and Bill wouldn't come.

When these other people come to me and sit in and waste my time listening to Marshall Grizzly, which was a disaster.

Well, he must know that.

Well, he doesn't, because he didn't see the other person.

Another thing, too, is that he's always wanting me to go over this street, that thing, or what they've done, and all that.

And I'm not going to do it, Bob.

That's too goddamn critical.

He said, critical is critical.

I'm not going to that damn recession or that biological war.

I'm just going to go over to the state department.

Yeah, they're not for him.

They're just used for him.

He had to take a little march on by then or into war.

There wouldn't be any of them with him.

I don't think they would.

There's a certain loyalty to the Secretary to where they feel they can play the department against the White House.

Uh, John, you got a minute?

Do you want to come down?

I wonder...

I'm rather pleased the way you began that question.

I was thinking again about our strategy.

I think it was more important that any of us could do it, but we would not be able to.

I think it was very important that we packed it away.

I was very excited by not going and saying, Pat, why don't you stay?

Let me say what it was I thought.

I wish you well.

He didn't lie, it started with him.

He put that, Shelly had obviously worked on it too.

Shelly, she had said, look, for Christ's sake, you have no, I'm sure she said exactly what I thought, which is you have no goddamn right to leave.

Because that's the way I feel very deeply.

You can't do this in this world except as it is associated with Richard Nixon.

That's the thing.

When Henry and John and I were talking, each of the three of us, in a minor way, but each in his own way, had established himself somehow.

I mean, each of us was something, you know, had gotten somewhere in our own right, not based on our association lawyer, business man, professor.

And Patrick Hannon had not.

He was a number one happy candidate.

He had civility, there's no question about that.

And he saw the singularity and developed it.

He might still be an editorial writer for the Sunday Post, a little better at staffing, I think, for us to believe.

Or he might have moved up to the Chicago Tribune by now.

But who the hell is the editorial writer?

Yeah, who will ever know?

Or can?

and that is where you get into a question of whether you really i guess have the right to use what what that is for some other purpose and that's good any of these young guys that we've had you know blumenthal who was here before some of the others that we've talked about the buchanan thing the question is right to to utilize

a position that he holds only because of his association.

He has done so in this world, except as he is tied to rigidness.

This doesn't mean he's not an able guy.

This doesn't mean he hasn't done anything with his ability for rigidness to develop.

Yeah, we give them

We get a tranqus already leveraged.

Well, I shook him yesterday.

Can I tell you something?

Yeah.

You told President I was here.

It really started when I said, well, I'm going to go there and President Suguchi should go.

Got that.

Backwater.

You couldn't believe it.

It was on the show that we were coming.

I'm sure she had heard it.

And...

Yeah, well, it's interesting how, uh, the day is coming.

Again, I wanted to tell you that, uh, I didn't mean to ridicule you, but I guess you, you knew this guy was going to be the bomb, and the night went down.

You don't want to see it.

Rather than begging him, we just told him it's okay to go.

And she said, well, we'll provide them all with everybody.

You agree?

Yeah, that's great.

Everybody now that says, well, look, I understand.

But she said, we finally appreciate what you've done very much.

And we think you're doing exactly the right thing.

Thank you very much.

Goodbye.

Here's your watch.

Appreciate it.

I don't think that we, I don't think that you can put ourselves in a position of saying, well, you're indispensable, we're making a mistake, and so forth.

But the worst thing we can make is thinking in our own minds that that's the case, because nobody really is.

I agree with you, it would have been harmful for Pat to leave.

Yeah, it would have been harmful.

But, I'm not at all sure it would have been more harmful for him to stay under a condition where he had the wood panel.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, we had been down on our knees saying, Jesus, Pat, we need you so bad.

The other point that was raised, that I wanted to raise with both of you, is that you were able to look after the boss, because he's the only one.

One of Pat's real errors, I think it's a deep doubt, was that he wasn't brought in and consulted all the way along the lines for a lot of communication.

The writing was not made available to him.

Because of his lack of experience in this field, there was no discredits on him.

It was not that he prepared for the post, etc., etc.

I mean, everything, including the kickoff in Hawaii, the kickoff in Guam, the early days of the post, and so forth, all that brought together was his return statement.

Remember for the landing in Alaska or something, where you said it's good to be back.

It was good to be back on American soil and off to those dirty, concrete streets.

That's what I said.

It wasn't me.

It wasn't Daddy Elijah.

But basically, it was just not good diplomatic writing.

He doesn't have it.

But before that, he's got an enormous ability in other areas that diplomatic writers don't have.

but down in concentration.

So we just did the same thing in a different way by saying I flew over this great country and started flying.

I got into Iraq.

There is a feeling in the department, we build up our young guys and it's fine, that they should sit in and consult and participate and so forth.

Now, you can't do that, John.

You can consult with them and the rest, but they can't sit with me.

I mean, I find you've got to get to the point where I work with somebody who gives me reviews and we get them wrong.

And I think that really was the big one.

Most of our young guys take that because his suggestions are all wrong.

I've worked that way, but that...

Plus, he has, in his belt, a couple years of

of sitting next to you in the airplane on the way to somewhere, writing a speech, and working it all out, and deciding with you what the strategy would be, and in the press when you got there, explaining what you said and why, and the background afterwards, and all that.

It's a difficult conversation.

You see, he was going to leave last September.

This is related to other people as well, because he felt that he wasn't being used enough on such as well.

Well, great.

What greater influence, what man would have had the potential opportunity to influence this office more than the man who supervised the news summary and prepared the briefing for press conference?

What, in the name of God?

Well, plus, if I can, I'd be proud to lose him and say this is all he did.

You noted how I changed him quite a lot.

That's the other point.

He's always been, and I told him this, that he has always had a role.

as an anchor to the right in here, where he's had the privilege of submitting outrageous memoranda to you on various subjects that have always been seriously considered.

They've gone to John in the wrong.

All right, the difference points that have been worded, worded, useful in our own point of view is, and it's been waiting with that whole outline.

I didn't want to dig one buggy.

No, no, no.

I don't want to dig that off to a doctor.

I'd have a, like I said, I'd give him a good deep account, and particularly give him the feel of the personal view.

You don't get into what the community says so much, you don't get into much of that, but if he does use Brian quickly, yeah.

But you'd give him the inside of the, that kind of thing, that he enjoys hearing.

Now, the second part is, I think, hang on a second, it's a good chance for you

to have a candid talk with Connolly about the Rodgers problem.

Now, I don't know how it can be raised, but Bob, how do you think you can raise it?

I wanted to do it before you, C. Donnelly, you know, because about, not that he's going to do anything about it, but Rodgers, but Connolly's terribly important to us in terms of keeping this thing from getting out of hand.

Well, I'll just tell him, I'll give him a little description of what happened.

Tell him the question.

I think you might say, now look, the only sovereign over here is, as you probably know, there's a way the State Department people are creating pressure on us.

They warned us against the trip.

We didn't think they were right, which, of course, is bullshit.

They never made any warnings against us.

The second point is, you can say, and now the way they're saying it,

The Secretary of State should have been in more and he wouldn't have made all these mistakes.

And third, that we downgraded the Secretary of State.

Now, let me tell you how it works in the Secretary of State.

First, they don't always go on trips.

Second, and Robert's been on whenever he wanted to be, but he has never yet participated in a meeting when they had a statement.

Mr. President, let's take the difference.

John knows that.

He was that before some of the meetings.

That's right.

I, in effect, negotiated Connolly's business alone, even without you.

He never complained about it.

He stayed up with me till 3.30 in the morning working out the position, and then got behind it totally enthusiastically.

You never heard that anyone else did anything.

But you can also find out that...

So it's not how you do it in the case of totalitarians.

It is a totally different case.

Rodgers gave it away himself when he said that the foreign minister was stiff and they were going to call this.

That shows why sending the Secretary of State over to talk to Joe in line would not have worked.

See, my friend, they wouldn't have worked for so many reasons.

Well, Mark, we know what I meant.

Assuming that he was qualified.

But the reason he wouldn't have worked is that they do not consider secretaries to state as being negotiating people.

You know what I mean?

Politicians with responsibility.

Gromitio has more power than most.

Is he here with Politico?

Yeah.

Even Gromitio?

You see, Bill ought to study the company's systems.

He's not even studying the members of Politico.

Not even Gromitio is studying Politico, but...

with the Chinese where everything significant has to be done in the future.

The only man who could guarantee it was you.

They don't give a damn about Rogers.

They don't give a damn about me.

The only significance I had was that I was speaking for you, but they had to hear it from you.

That hour and a half speech you made at the opening session with Joe was worth more than any 50 visits by any subordinates.

You might point out, too, the difference in approach.

When Rogers was fighting a property that we had in the foreign ministry and said he was in the foreign ministry of tech, on the ground, we were saying, you should secure all the people.

We're doing everything now that we can.

It was a good debating point.

Yeah.

Before I got there.

You know, it's a good thing I made that speech at the outset.

That's right.

If you had warned me that he'd pass that on back to Joe, I certainly would have done that afterwards.

I kept telling him, no, we're going to stay.

It's in your interest.

The president opened the first session with Joe by practically going...

beyond what I thought was wise and beyond what I had written in my suggestions for the president.

But I wanted him to counterpunch.

He said what I had recommended as a counterpunch, as his opening statement before he was here, and very toughly said we're going to stay in Asia.

It's in our interest and what's more important, it's also in your interest.

and then let me explain to you why, and then went around the periphery and did it for an hour and a half.

But I thought this was getting awfully close, but remember, in every previous session I had with him, I told Mr. President before we got there, there'll be one day when they'll hit you, and that's when I recommend that you hit back, but they never hit him, because he preempted it.

There was never...

Now, Rogers, they gave him the same speech about getting out of Asia.

Rogers said, if you travel more, you'll understand us better.

Because, because we are getting out.

So, he insulted him first, but then told him what it is.

And then what did he tell you?

I didn't tell him.

The footnote to that is that he told us the same thing out in the hall, out in the cabin.

While we were waiting to come in here to see him.

We were getting out of his car again.

No, but these, you know, these silly people had never been anywhere.

They didn't understand.

They didn't know.

They didn't realize they were getting out.

And never been to Africa.

He'd been to Africa.

Oh, yeah.

The Africans had their revolution.

They don't want a revolution.

They want peace.

Don't happen to be ready with some kind of peace at home.

Well, you're a man of confidence.

Well, we gave the people who have to write the memcons, we gave them a four day

Because they've been working on it for two weeks.

I'm sure they'll have it by the end of this week, but it is a massive tiring job.

But the guy that's got to do the basic work on that is, well, Muldridge and... Muldridge is traffic with green.

Muldridge is with green, and Lord is... Well, we gave him some time off.

The poor guy was standing there dead.

So, we have a massive trucking day all tired.

But, uh, because after all you have about 20 hours of conversation there, but, uh... Well, you're not going to give all that to him.

No, no, but first we've got to get it... We've got to get the verbatim.

And then, that's what's taking the time.

Then we've got to distill the verbatim so that they can't leak it to the Japanese.

One other problem we have is that they have the Japanese penetrated or the Japanese leaked to them.

The Chinese?

The Chinese.

So the Chinese told us things

which they had gotten from the Japanese, which the Japanese had gotten from the State Department.

And they told it to the President.

And they could have done only that way, because one was their officer and one was for the President.

The existence of which they didn't know, I mean, couldn't have known.

And we didn't know the Japanese, so we had a

But almost everything that was done for Rogers, the president got him an hour and a half with Joe on the plane.

I had three times to Joe until he finally agreed to call on him.

Well, the president did it just by trapping Joe.

They got everybody sitting in the compartment and the president got up and walked out.

Just left Joe sitting there with Rogers.

In Joe's airplane, so there was nothing he could do about it.

And then the state recognized the fact that the Chinese were puzzled by our treatment of rioters.

They wanted to talk to them, but they wouldn't lie.

Is that right?

That was 10-foot-9, I believe, sir.

That's right, that's right.

Now, that's an outrage too, sir.

That's something I don't know, but it is such an outrage to lie because I, for example, tried to get Marshall Greene into the traffic session so we could communicate.

It was in our interest to see how fast they were.

They refused.

And see how it ended up such that there was no...

Well, those are the State Department guys sitting in our meetings, in your meetings, and that isn't going to happen ever.

They never do, and they never will.

But the reason that I can never break that, I have never had a State Department person sit in a residence with somebody from Latin America on any other meetings.

And I'm not going to have a ballot, and I'm not going to do it for a very long amount of reason.

They leak.

That's all there is to it.

Well, there's a lot of things you can get, things you want to talk about, but you don't want them there.

That's right.

And especially there, they really think that the highest sensitivity is the people.

Well, they don't talk freely.

It's like a person is sitting here, they don't trust you or actually want to leave.

But the fact of the matter is that the President and I have made certain exceptions to give them visibility.

I know.

It isn't true that we kept him down.

The opposite is true.

That's for sure.

The overriding thing was the damn non-meeting, and that was just, that was too bad.

That was how it started.

The damn meeting could have done about that, and at the time it happened, you thought there was going to be another one.

That's right.

Andrew thought it was a ten-minute greeting ceremony.

And they said they didn't want to tell us.

Well, they didn't want to.

We saw why when we were there.

It's something we can't tell.

But anyway, we can't go that we were going to have the same damn thing in the Russian thing.

I just kind of want to go through it.

I've got to find a way to deal with it before then.

That's the real problem.

I think we're going to have to set the groundwork for that this afternoon.

I think just you'll start to embrace the Russian thing.

We've got to handle it differently.

That means we've got to say, well, we've got to handle it the same.

He's got to understand that.

Then he'll live with what he understands.

I think he will.

I think he ought to get into his head that his people are predicting him more than us.

That all these stories they're putting out about his downgrading is not in his interest.

I think there's nobody over here putting out any stories about his downgrading.

What the hell?

Has anybody talked to Nicole Turkey about this?

I did yesterday afternoon.

He walked right into it.

I had a good opportunity.

He dragged through again.

Here's the point.

Bill's

It seems to be so totally solid in another light.

He must know.

And, of course, I guess all candidates are saying, you're only here on the job.

But for Christ's sake, sure, the foreign policy is a major problem.

Mine's like, it's got a bussing problem now.

I had to listen to the welfare report this morning.

And the rest would be nothing about the priority for the Congress.

In the name of God, will you also give me an hour and a half with Secretary of State Jeremy Gladstone?

You're up for re-election today.

I've got to worry about the strategy in IT&T, what the crisis we're doing all the time.

You see what I mean, Harry?

Well, and also for the human in China, where you have to be up for these meetings, since this guy is the ablest man and the most persistent guy we've ever met.

The goal was to make these long spaces, but this guy's like a cobra.

He was just on all sides of the train.

Whenever we're in a conversation, there'd be some mob, and he'd slip in a word or something.

Of course, I'd use the same tactic on him.

Yeah, but it takes a lot of nervous energy.

Sure.

That, then there's that emotional self on top of it, the emotional pressure of this endless nitpicking and wailing instead of coming in to help us.

And he could have come to thought, okay, who knows what danger will be in a few days.

We're all in this together.

Never did.

Instead of driving us all to run out of time.

That's, that's, that's... You could call Turkey.

Well, the objective is to be engaged, so he called me.

And he said, we've got terrible trouble with this communicator.

We have a real problem with all this stuff.

I said, well, did you go out and cover this with him?

No.

I've got to talk to the president about it.

But as the war followed up, he did then go over it with Henry.

Henry did.

Henry incorporated all the changes, including damn near blowing the whole thing, because the Chinese started getting approved by the Politburo in the end of the war.

Now, there'll be a check to happen on any candidate with 10 significant factors, like transiguous, faded, distressed.

Instead of saying leave Chinese, say all, they said check all Chinese and should say leave Japanese.

One single one of his poems that I thought was pure, but it was self-anointing.

Pure bullshit.

It was pure bullshit.

On the other hand, the Josh and Michael lawyer, you heard about him, very like his speech.

That's the way to charge a client.

They both made little improvements.

You said so at the time.

You made the thing know Henry better.

I think the original draft that you had Henry, you thought he would have put out a damn chance.

It took the only thing that I think he did improve on from the standpoint of the way

My point is, John, my point is that we

We went through this thing, and when we talked about it, of course I worked on all the things that mattered.

And also, frankly, I had read a whole lot of that team today for him.

It was not always like that.

But from there, if you look at the October document, it's pretty good.

But you compare it to this one.

This is an enormous improvement from our standpoint, right?

Every procession while we were in China was made like that.

Every single one.

We didn't make any changes.

They gave us things in Taiwan which I thought were totally impossible, which I just put in.

The president said, we need running room.

It's not in your interest to undermine us.

That's when they gave the ground.

I said that out of show.

I let the others work.

We kept the ground.

Our little union played back and forth.

If you look at this, I think it's fine.

With the Russian thing in mind, doesn't there have to be just a flat-out understanding that foreign policy is made here, and the State Department has a role in this, but that

It's just intolerable to have these stations of your attention.

If he made himself part of it, if he went around saying, this is the proudest week of my life.

He was speaking about not getting enough recognition of his role.

If he said, never have I been more proud of your president, if his guys were running around, what you never see is, in the press or in the news media,

Officials say this was the greatest week in American diplomacy.

They can say it.

We can't say it.

When it's the president, it's absolutely true.

We can't bring up...

In this case, I mean, it's recognized that way at all.

What's the matter with these damn people?

Hell, after India-Pakistan, you heard a lot about what officials were thinking.

Yeah, that's right.

So they know how to get it out.

We know that.

It is strange.

He's missing the opportunity.

All he has to do is tie himself to the kite because it's soaring.

Well, if he made himself an ally...

He says, why can't I get aboard?

If he made himself an ally instead of a competitor... Well, for example, John, it's a mistake that you might make in your garage in a press conference, isn't it?

It's a mistake, this one.

It's a mistake because there's a goddamn thing he can add except to up his own harm for these people and he ain't gonna settle with them.

He is gonna... and she's liable because he forced her to some more statements about Taiwan and he should admit it.

We made that point.

He can only do damage.

He cannot do any good.

And we sent him the little memorandum.

Oh yeah?

Oh, he's got it, exactly.

But still, he's put himself in a position where he can only lose and not win.

And he's putting out a report on foreign policy to that.

Basically, that document also shouldn't exist because... Well, the purpose of it is fine.

It's competitive.

But... Well, he puts it on.

He puts it on.

It's...

You know, it's much less good than ours now.

I know that sounds self-serving, but it's typical State Department garbage.

Every country in the world has two paragraphs.

What can you say about it?

And a picture.

That's right.

And every picture has a minute, but that I don't mind.

Really?

Yeah.

But that's the line, that's the video censorship.

Basically, nothing can be said in that way.

But if he wants to do it, so it's people, it's not as good as ours, he'll again do it.

What I wanted to do, Henry, was to, with Connie, though, I think it's good to have a, he needs his counsel.

He doesn't bitch about the inside thing.

And he's very interested in this subject.

I think you should ask him what the hell he provides.

You see, Bob, I think it would be better if Henry asked you in a few days.

Or you agree.

I do.

Much better.

You were there.

I haven't.

And, you know, he suffered the lead problem, you know.

You put it on your cabinet secretary.

Let me ask you, as a cabinet secretary, how should, how should, how can we resolve this problem that we've got with a different cabinet secretary?

Because he had the same problem as yours.

I know.

He was confronted with a finished document, which you had done.

The other thing I was going to say, John, go ahead and bring that.

I think we have the Constitutional Amendment as far as our leaders in certain organizations.

Yeah, because they're not all of them, huh?

That's about fair.

All of the organizations have said that the Constitutional Amendment will not do anything about the bottom this year.

Right?

Well, Pop said it was not right, I think, when he was talking about the short range and the long range.

Well, we can indicate that that's a big gun that can be packed later.

Sure.

But the guys are...

It was good to hear their views.

Now I've heard the views and read all the blacks.

I was planning on having to hear from some others before then, and I couldn't say I was... Well, that makes quite a good answer.

I'm glad to be here.

Yes, sir.

Well, here he comes.

How are you?

Good to see you.

You got a channel?

Oh, we got a little star on the air.

I suppose that's what you're talking about.

Here it is.

I guess I should show you my name.

Ha, ha, ha.

No, I'm kidding.

I'll just read it out loud.

You know, Mrs. Payne, we'll go back to her at the same time.

It'll be all right.

She's starting to find the most serious.

You know, all of that stuff.

Yeah.

Great.

Very good, sir.

Congratulations.

This is a sign of a gentleman.

That's not very good.

I understand.

Now let's try it on the back of this one.

You've got such a sleigh driver here.

This is a better race.

He's only the second star of the party yet.

He says, I'm good.

Hold on a little bit.

Yeah.

Well, you've got a smaller party yet.

I noticed that you've got this little diva here.

But she apparently has a little party yet.

Yes, sir.

I don't know if you've read that talk.

He's got some of these.

The fine set is with alcohol.

I don't recommend either, for the moment.

I'll hold that.

That's right.

You've got another pair of socks.

These old men, you already have them.

You gave them to one of your friends.

Goodbye.

Just, uh, right back out here and just, you know, let's see what we have for you.

No, sir.

No, thank you.

Thank you.

Now we move on to the next question.

First, her husband and wife, Sarah, and the two boys, and Craig, and the three daughters, and the five of them, and the one and two, and the one and two, and the one and two.

And we started doing this.

So, uh...

Oh, that one.

That's it.

All right.

Now, everybody, set, go.

Sorry, I had to wait.

I didn't hear you say anything.

You're all right, so we got it.

We got it.

Well, thank you for the congratulations.

You're going to get it in a month or something.

You deserve more than that after all of these.

You're all going to get very successful.

All right.

Now we're going to get a fan.

We're going to get a fan.

I don't know if you can see that.

I want you to come over here to my right.

And I think the cleaning crate usually stands over the front.

So you see this building, not quite as tall.

There we have the tall one on each side.

Look out at the big gap.

Wow.

And how are we getting by?

We're officially happy.

Yeah.

Well, good, good.

I didn't want to do this, but you've got to just ask Al Hayes, the other woman president.

She said, she said, John, what do you want to talk about?

I said, I'd rather not see any of my wife there.

You know, they always used to say, you know, the chicken kernel was really something.

That's why I'm being a, let me see, that's why I'm being a councilman today.

It's real big, you know, right?

I'll say this, you're not really taking care of it, you're not really taking care of it.

Let's see, the board is a very tough one, if you've got one, that gives you two.

What were you doing there?

Thank you.

Well, anyway, our sole business is the operation.

We cannot have a situation, Bob, on the Russian side.

Somebody's got to be consoled.

You can't.

Sapphire knows that he can't.

He can't pick another person.

But the words and the stuff that...

The problem is, when you're dealing at the highest level, it is impossible to have consultation at any length.

You've got to get everything in advance.

You've got to have all the views and all that sort of thing.

But you start nitpicking the thing around, you've got to realize that other guy isn't going to have to do that.

And it can.

And it's just a tough deal.

Also, you can't get people in who don't know anything about it.

We also have this problem, and John has said it already.

He thinks he's sold to people because he's one of those guys who thinks it's necessary to eat their spirit.

And then it's all legal.

The moratorium is legal.

The president's not going to support a constitutional amendment.

That's legal.

You know John had to come from a meeting, didn't he?

Well, I don't think...

I don't mean one of the people in the meeting stuff, but I mean anyone from the debriefing process.

The process is... My deal is that, you see, I know that the whole deal is that we've got to keep up a debriefing with God.

I'd love to do it in my life.

Call in Buchanan, Price, Sapphire, or Al.

eat and rest and tell them every day, gee, these are the things that happen.

I know everyone's one.

But as sure as the devil, it would leak.

Do you agree with me or not?

We've proved that over and over.

And then there's another thing, especially this year, it's the tendency of the department, especially at the State Department,

to talk to the president so that anything good that happens is not to get extorted from him.

So that they claim the credit for the good things and shove all the bad things into here.

That's an intolerable position in the election year.

It's always an intolerable position.

That's a particularly bad one this year.

I think the department needs some melancholy on that.

They all do.

I'm more conscious in this day and age.

I can realize that.

I just don't like to have to think of my own people.

I don't mind criticism.

And by the way, we've taken a lot.

We've learned a lot.

But you can have your own people for petty personal reasons this time.

My theory is he's in here only when things are extremely good or extremely bad.

He's never here when you need him.

And he goes in to congratulate you, and it's marvelous, and he's proud, and you know, and he's a boy.

All right.

I mean, things aren't real, so I'm conscious of, I don't think it's circulated to the public at all.

I think the Rogers thing did during the trip because the networks played it very hard.

They off the mountain.

Off the mountain, primarily, but also.

See, I think that's what Rogers is reading, is this stuff from back on the trip.

Because there isn't anything out now.

He was hitting me on, did you read all these articles?

And I can't find any articles.

about it now, I think he must be, you know, they make him up a scrapbook of all the bad clippings or something that he's sitting there, or the whole quarry of that during the trip, as those roads allow me, and then also, it was kind of a continuing thing.

It was like the, uh, it was like the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh,

And Henry didn't show up somewhere.

And then the speculation was that Henry was having secret meetings with Miles and Harris-Rogers, and he wasn't there.

You know, that kind of stuff.

And because they didn't have anything else to talk about, I wasn't as far off as you could go either, because that's the exact reason I got to be here tonight, or not, because I wanted to be there with you.

Now, that's not the point.

I had a session at a meeting.

I'm going to meet with the, on the other hand, July ministers, and on the other hand, Ms. Conner, the president.

I'm going to tell you how I've studied this.

It does not hurt any president not to have a good relationship with this Capitol.

Probably one thing to do.

Well, you know, it's interesting.

I can't think of any in the last 20 or 25 years who had been in relations with their captain, really, in the eyes of pirates.

Well...

The Eisenhower relations with Dulles were excellent, but Dulles was superbly loyal, and Eisenhower trusted him.

So Dulles was the secretary of state, and that's how it was publicly perceived as having good cabinet relations, primarily because he didn't have any except the formal relationship of the regular meeting and all that super-sac system of memos.

They started cutting each other up.

Johnson started cutting each other up.

was seen as as they were not perceived to be uh there wasn't a strong man

Oh, incredible.

Adults would never ask us.

We never asked if everybody was.

Never said if the blood was in any situation.

But he, adults never asked to go on trips.

He went on most, on some, not all of them.

When I got to his ranch, I swear I was where adults would go.

And we just have a situation here in Washington State sort of a vanity, you know what I mean?

I'm so grateful that I lost an eye.

But I'm not going to be, I just can't, I cannot get the process through that, though.

The idea, for example, of having the State Department man sit in on our meetings, first, it adds an extra minute.

The second, I thought, well, I'm not going to have the State Department be able to make a record of the meeting in which I participate, and then dedicate it, and then win it.

And that's what they'll do.

That's what he's there for.

If he isn't going to do that, then why is he there?

They'll say, oh, just for me.

I saw him every morning.

I gave him a full run.

That's what they're going to talk.

They're going to tell him what to do with it.

Another reason, except to be mad, because the other thing is so ridiculous, I have to spend all the time for it.

There are a few great things.

Okay, uh, John, first of all, about the situation.

You think we're going to follow by on this, but I'm glad it's happening.

Improve, uh...

I just want you to be sure that Ray's paper is

I don't want to have this gas in the wall.

I don't know that I'm going to be doing this good.

I like the idea where you said the daycare center should be optional for parents.

On the other hand, don't write in this, do not write in this paper, and that we should all recognize that we are, that school districts should be re-arguing for the purposes of mixing racial groups because mixed education enhances the development of the child.

I do not believe that's a sound proposition.

As a matter of fact, we're going to challenge that proposition today.

Now, we're marching around the country disputing that and raising the issue.

But George Schultz, the reason I remember him, he told me that his kids had gone to this school, and it's also the governor of Virginia who told me the same thing.

It's been a wonderful experience for them, because they learned about black people in Christ.

Look, let me say, I'm just like Bob, if I could turn a few words closer.

It was a fine experience for me, and I named George, and

also go wrong, and you can't get any closer together than when you're on a football team, when you travel on the same train, bus, you know, and so forth.

I remember the same club, and it was good for me to know them, and it was damn good for them to know us, and read all the people there.

But the idea that what you want to do, that education is inferior unless it's matched, is not correct.

It's mind-boggling.

Well, that's the line we're taking, is that that Cohen thesis is now subject to serious questions, and that we should not put the burden on schools, trying to affect that social experiment.

The question I had is whether you did want to raise, because I don't want to get in on the topic, so...

Jerry Porter was sort of in the discussion of the district over here.

I assume that the reason Pop should change the letter was important, though.

No, I didn't.

I assume so, but I don't know if Pop could write about it or something.

He is, and he tracks well.

Well, then, well, I guess what happened is there was a lawyer under Pop, I doubt it, and he signed the date out, and I don't think he dealt with it.

I left word over at Ed Dawson to give us the details on it, but that one caught me flat-footed.

I just don't know the ins and outs of that case.

Is there anything that really can be done to clean up this, to simplify this campaign spending?

That was an interesting conversation, but what I meant is the regulations we put out about that student elder response, you know, are better if we're not.

See, the problem is, he says he needs 85 more men before he can write the regulations.

The damn regulations won't be out by the time the law's offered it.

What would have been fun in there is to ask for a show of hands of who had voted for that damn thing.

And I'll bet you that the very guys that were bitching about it were the guys that voted for it.

Well, and the reason that they had to sign it is that the damn Republicans all voted for it.

It would have been perfectly ideal act.

On the social security increase, let's not get into the box where the story is that they're opposing 20%, which of course should have been in your favor or something less, and eventually I signed something.

On others, I'm willing to oppose, John, but not necessarily to be well over the effect of the political period.

Well, we are, but we want to move something to you on this, as Dirk said, and let you call a shot on it.

I agree it's the final priority of the legislation for the restitution.

It seems to me that our own people do live with guidance about this.

It gives a greater chance to, you know, put them all together.

And I have a quote about two people who say, if you show us, and then maybe you can carry it forward.

I don't believe it.

They're gonna leave or something.

They sure are.

I'll tell you in the name of God.

He's serious.

I mean, he was running for vice president, but the crisis is small.

It's really weird.

He must be crazy.

It's really weird.

How much money that he doesn't get more.

If he gets 80%, I'll be surprised.

He's apparently running an incredible advertising campaign.

Oh, nothing but bucks.

Well, that's a good point.

They say you can't turn on the radio in New Mexico without your income.

But the fellows who are close to him, who are students at Wilbur now, say this is a guy like they never saw before.

He is a hell.

Now it's just on two things.

Clark, when I talked to him the other day about...

You know what the interesting thing here is, you realize that he has a

He's 62.

He's almost 2.

Right.

He's almost 2.

Yeah.

He's 62.

They say he runs 11.

He might run, for example, 64.

That's the other one.

The other one is Christ the Christ.

I don't know about those.

Or first year.

He's 64.

Mm-hmm.

and that's not coming out that nobody is developing but it's it is throwing an eccentricity into the whole houseways means thing that uh because he'll go before a group and say any damn thing and that's revenue sharing we don't know where we're at from one day to the next that allows for the massachusetts and rhode island primary

Everybody in sight.

Connelly's theory is that the milk producers have cut him off.

in that resolution they had, you know, that we managed to install.

Some of these not-a-fetish volunteers, they've got a lot of them.

But he's got, you know, he's got bankers and stuff, but all these tax associations.

He's got plenty of money services.

Oh, boy.

Rice producers.

You see, he's gone two ways.

Yeah, and they have a system, you know, where he puts bills in by unanimous consent that have not had any public hearing, that are so-called technical changes.

And, uh, a whole, uh, he'll go into a tie-in and he'll

put them up when nobody's in the chamber and there's a box there and those can mean millions of dollars to a taxpayer.

Yeah, through one taxpayer.

What are you ready for?

It's, it's big medicine.

Some guy frustrated him up there the other day and objected.

And he was standing there with 15 bills in his hand.

And he couldn't get it out of his hands.

That's all right.

It throws a lot of... No, but English and Mankiewicz had a thing going, these two campaign organizations.

And they've been cutting each other up around the country several places.

This kind of thing.

That's good.

Well, Frank keeps at it.

He invited me to dinner the other night, and I wasn't able to make it.

Well, that's all.

Okay.

That's it.

I believe those are the General Motors.

He's doing half past, so I imagine he's here.

It shows that you might want to just kind of draw a library handshake and sit and say, all right.

That's how we library handshake.

I don't know if I want to sit down.