Conversation 683-009

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You know, there has to be an intelligent man who's got to see the terrible irresponsibility

him, who would tear down and have nothing to offer, his place, or have a double standard, receive power and so on and so on.

He's just one of those factors.

And he's quite an impressive guy, my friend.

Gale, that's your copy, your autographed copy.

It won't sell much, but it'll have a .

There's a lot of good reference stuff in it.

I've read it.

I've gone through it pretty much, getting a lot of examples that really scoop things up.

Some good songs and a lot of good stuff on how the President writes his own speeches.

Right.

He's got a chapter titled, Over Their Heads to the People.

Which we're going to start a little more of now.

Talks about that.

He's got some great historical stuff too.

Doesn't he?

He's very ancient of all.

Great Jefferson quote.

Either way, he's got a few.

Could I suggest that for any of our people's hope, hope is fine.

We can't afford that.

I don't know if I could send a few around, no.

But we're getting some.

I hope somebody would give it to you as a present.

You know, people do ask, what can I do to help?

Well, I'm going to, you know, they all write this thing, they're building this big thing about how to heat the earth.

And I'm going to make the point.

Any questions?

I don't hate the press at all.

I just understand them.

I'll be glad to talk with anybody about the press after they've read the Keough book and the Akron book.

But I have no interest in talking to anybody about the press until they've read both books.

Because obviously we're not talking in the same wavelength until they've read these.

Then if they want to discuss the whole press question, there might be some merit to it.

But if they haven't read these two books, they don't know what I'm talking about.

Thomas Jefferson, who makes a point, was very well treated by the press, wrote in a letter to James Monroe,

40 years of experience of the wretched guesswork of the newspapers, of what is not done in open daylight, and of their falsehoods even as to that, I rarely think them worth reading and almost never worth notice.

James Polk.

During the Mexican War, he sent a secret emissary to Mexico to try to negotiate a settlement, try to keep it a deep secret, but the press found out about it.

And so Polk wrote, the success of the mission I knew in the beginning must depend mainly on keeping it a secret from that portion of the Federal Trust and leading men in the country who, since the commencement of the war with Mexico, have been giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

That's the President of the United States.

In a role, you know, a funny version of the president.

Oh, he talked about the journalist's narrow bigotry, the most envious malignity, the most base, vulgar, sordid, fickle-mouthed scurrility, the most palpable lies.

He said he's the worst at it now.

He said his successors would find that the regulation of the press is the most difficult, dangerous, and important problem they have to resolve.

Yeah.

And of course, everybody uses a long-term period to run that.

Yeah, but...

Yeah, instead of just hanging on link links, you pick naturally, you pick some of the others.

Everybody uses link links.

He was bad at reading and so forth and so on.

What Cameron probably didn't have, and it's because of the computer, it's not our fault, but I just haven't had time to do research on this.

It's totally vicious and I'm suppressing it.

That was maybe long before I had any budget.

I'm glad he wrote the book.

Throughout Richard Nixon's public career, he had faced hostility from most of the men in the major media.

While this problem for him was in many ways much more complex than that which John Adams had faced,

He would not quite agree that it was the most difficult, dangerous, and important problem of all.

But he knew it was a problem, and he set about to deal with it in a characteristically pragmatic way.

That's his lead into Over the Heads to the People, and got after it.

And he was going to get all the way to New England.

He's into the Cambodia thing and the campus bombs.

He has the whole story of the bumps and how they blew that up, quoting each other.

He has the whole chapter on how they told it like it wasn't.

He has that straight up Rumsfeld's office where the, you know, Drew Pearson said he had almost stepped in.

He's got a lot of good stuff, and it's all solidly .

And he hits Hurd and all those people on a chapter title reverence for .

got a chapter called Breakfast in the Jungle, which is he knocks the guy, Christopher Irwin, breakfast.

Now that's distorted.

And he quotes the Vice President's thing, then runs all the commentary.

He has your November 3rd speech in the appendix, and then the commentary on each of the three networks following your November 3rd speech.

He has the transcripts of all of the commentary.

And then he's got the Vice President's Des Moines speech on that.

That's over here.

It's a good piece of work with some usable stuff people can pick up.

That's all that we have here.

A lot of the science .

That's why I didn't go to the Great Iron.

I didn't mention this to you, but I thought I'd make one of them this year, so it didn't appear.

I was just totally out.

I'm going to the Great Iron.

It's the most prestigious trade.

I'll never go to the White House for a response.

At that time, the end of April would be perfect.

April 30th is a Sunday night, and that would be good if you wanted to do that.

He'd like to do this thing in the evening.

Good.

And it would be an evening party, and then he'd love to have you stay at the house overnight.

Yeah, we should.

Come back to Washington the next day.

Right.

So you can do that if that works out.

Right.

I disagree with that date, frankly, in terms of that.

And then I'll see if we can't work the California thing out.

We'll just go ahead and do the county thing anyway.

Because I think on Texas, I'd like to shoot it in and out rather than do, if you see my point, the idea of doing several things when you're in a state is ridiculous.

It's a waste.

And I'm inclined to think that we ought to go to Texas two or three times, perhaps, and set a road.

Yeah.

I don't know.

You told me that probably we can't do San Angelo.

I told them we couldn't because that was the Canada trip.

Yeah, I told them that before.

That's all right.

Let's agree on the 30 days of the date and say we'd like for him to go forward.

That's a good time for us.

Well, either we, at the end of that, we'd like to stay overnight and he could come with Ivery and, you know, if they want him.

And let us come back with us on the plane.

Let's drop that.

No, I didn't want that.

What did he say from his viewpoint on China?

Did he have any reaction to it in any way, or did he just generally speak what he wanted to?

Because he got what you could tell when that was part of it.

And I, if I could look back, whatever the city wants to make of that finance thing, it's like the debate, right?

We have to just say, hell, I'm not going to, I mean, we'll do what the law requires, nothing more.

We're not going to go to that contest.

That's like, that's, I think, that's, right, we've got to sort of take our own ground and hold it, regardless of what the opposition wants to play with it.

Okay.

The law, we put it on it.

And I guess the figures say that's all being handled, which stands to do.

But all that, all the requirements, we have nothing to hide.

And he puts out a hell of a big, long list at some point, or at least so many contributors.

He counted that musketeers, they leave alone very much.

The Jews, their pornographic stuff, they leave terribly alone.

He's here, you know.

I haven't talked to him either, so I'm just buzzing.

I can't be able to speak.

And to Jess go, you know, I know this is a problem.

He must be thinking about it, too.

I hope he can.

It's quite clear.

Don't call him out on lunch, though, if he's having a lunch.

Just let us know where he is.

And I think it's another, I mean, the third, we've got Jess Henry.

But, you know, Robin Poole,

Because Bill was beaten to death.

Henry's under more, Bill's under more attack.

Henry's been under very severe attack.

I didn't see anybody come to his defense.

Do you remember the Anderson papers?

Yes.

Henry was under pretty brutal attack then, Bob.

We forget that now.

No, I remember it because Henry is very much aware of the crime.

You know, there's whole Indian policies.

Henry's here.

And he would say, I'm going to get ready, you know, to challenge that if you're called.

Because nobody was defending him, you know.

Did anybody take the time in there?

No.

No?

They didn't.

You just can't have a breakup, can you, Bob?

And yet, how the hell can you live with it?

With Bill just looking over your shoulder every minute of the time.

I'm not going to spoil it, baby.

I don't know.

I think we've just got to keep it in Bill.

Incidentally, I keep the Grinner thing.

I don't want cabin officers that have turned it down for their own reasons to change their mind because I'm there.

I think they look sort of silly.

I think we have one problem with Bill's case.

His failure to be there would be noticeable to them.

Plus, we've got a little problem with him.

He thinks he's going to California with you.

I kind of think I've got to tell him you want to tell him.

You say that I couldn't work it out.

We had a project.

I had to do that.

I've got to stay with him.

I'm stuck with the damn thing.

Oh, Mark, how's the dentist?

Hey, Mark.

Hi.

I had some gum surgery this morning.

Holy Jesus, that's tough.

But, uh, you've still got to see, uh, Joe Lowe came to see you again.

I seem to be able to talk, all right, as far as I know.

My mental processes, I hope, are not dull.

But, uh, no, I guess I have the same thing about the finish.

I have to, you know, hold on.

Good Lord.

Don't cure it the way Mitch did.

Well, maybe I'm mistaken.

I don't know just what he had.

He had all this teeth taken out.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I think 100%.

Oh, I didn't know that.

All I've got is teeth.

That may not be wrong.

He has a lot of teeth.

No, I'm not that big.

Periodontists, I think is what they call it.

That's a gradual deterioration of the gums.

That might be true.

Look, I'd like to talk to you a little about this flap between Rogers and Kissinger.

I mean, this is sort of one of those things, but it does seem to me that Doc Hart would want to be there.

It does do.

I think he should be there, but I think the way it's got to be handled is, is it still that he can't come on Wednesday?

Yes, that's true.

I just verified that with Dick Cook, and I- And it's important that you, or that they tell Henry that you have talked with the community, the people that they feel very strongly admire, may not be down to do that.

But Bob Hart, because he's been our strongest supporter, has got to be there, and it would be wise of him not to because we haven't even found him to be there.

I will, Mr. President.

I've called Dr. Morgan's office.

I haven't spoken to him in person.

He has a lot of teeth.

No, I'm not that big.

Periodontist, I think is what they call it, and that's a gradual deterioration of the gum.

Look, I'd like to talk to you a little about this flap between Rogers and Kissinger.

but it does seem to be that Doc Hart would want to be there.

It does do.

I think he should be there, but I think the way it's got to be handled is, is it still that he can't come on Wednesday?

Yes, that's true.

I just heard about that with Dick Cook.

It's important that you, or that they tell Henry that you have talked with the community, the people that they feel very strongly admire, may not be down with you.

But Bob Martin, because he's been our strongest supporter, has got to be there, and it would be wise of him not to because we have to meet him about his being there.

I will, Mr. President.

I've called Dr. Morgan's office.

I haven't spoken to him personally, but I requested an appointment to go up and talk with Dr. Morgan.

I should go up and visit with him, and I don't have to.

I would also like to have you invite Dr. Morgan, Dr. Morgan, Dr. Morgan, Dr. Morgan, Dr. Morgan, Dr. Morgan, Dr. Morgan,

That gets it away from Henry's Rogers and so on and so forth and so on.

I think Rogers is wrong about this.

As I understand it, you have his man present with you there.

Yes, sir.

And it is actually a difference.

We've done these things with Henry and the Foreign Relations Committee members at Blair House on two occasions and once at...

before I was on your staff, sir, either at Fulbright's home or at John Truman Cooper's home, I can't remember just what, but Dave Avschar has been president on each of those occasions, and he's the head of congressional relations at the state.

Which I said the bill at our home last night, and I emphasized to him again on that.

on the phone this morning, and I said, Henry called me to keep this game a week ago Friday and emphasized that he, Henry, wished to do nothing to undermine, diminish, or in any way detract from the position of the Secretary of State.

And it was Henry who insisted that these informal sessions be scheduled only after the Secretary of State had appeared before each of the committees to make his report.

Bill Rogers, Mr. President, responded by saying, well, I meet with the committees in public and then Henry meets with them in private.

And he said, I don't think that's helping.

Well, I...

He wanted to make sure he was in public.

You can't just say, I didn't notice that.

You also know that probably when you've got a category that's not equal, then you are going to have a constitutional crisis, are you not?

They're going to demand, because that's what we're trying to do as our church, and the purpose of this is to undercut that.

What is the bill where they can have a God damn, have to straight arm them and say that this and this and your man, nobody can see?

No.

He can't do it.

He's not being very rational, is he?

No, sir.

I fear that Stuart Alsop probably called the Secretary of State to advise him in advance of the story that appears in the Newsweek this week, which is a bit of medicine, I expect, from Bill.

Of course it is.

Totally.

I said to both of them...

I said to both Bill Rydman and Henry Kissinger that, you know, couldn't they get together in my office this afternoon?

And I was sure that, you know, I'll be in any further trouble.

I didn't get a, let me put it this way, I didn't get an affirmative response from either one.

I got a non-response.

What'd they say?

I didn't push it.

You can't push it.

Although I can say this, that

Why don't you try to put him on a day later and leave this week?

You could do that this year.

L.A. just came in this June and said we're going to reschedule it.

And I tell Bill Rogers that we are going to reschedule it.

Because part of Bill's complaint was that

He thought, no, it'll be, he thought, part of us that it wasn't, he thought that we'd be scheduled to deliver it.

Well, this is not true.

We asked him deliberately to be after his schedule.

We waited for him.

So that he would be the first one out.

And so Henry would back him up on every point, which he has always done.

Mr. President, Bill said to me last night and again this morning, I thought we had an agreement that you and Henry would advise me or consult with me before you set one of these things up.

And I never thought we had such an understanding, and I so told him, and he said, well, it's my recollection.

Well, anyway.

Well.

But was Bill's man present when you were setting up or something?

Bill, the State Department guy was at that meeting on Friday.

Friday afternoon.

Why didn't he go tell him?

Well, he's... You should have told him.

Is that what he means?

That's right.

He said you or Henry should have consulted with me on the timing of everything.

Okay, so the answer to that is, yeah, you're right, Bill, we should have.

But now, you know, so we did.

And we told your guy.

What the hell difference does it make?

I've also, Mr. President, tried with Bill Rogers, again, both last night at my home and this morning, to say...

You know, how the House members feel that the Senators have been given something that they haven't enjoyed.

And our House members support us, and we need them to support us on war powers and a lot of tough things that are coming along that may sail through the Senate.

We've got to stop them in the House.

And he told me that the conversation at your house last night was all to the point that the House members said they wouldn't go, that they would boycott Henry's hearing, that they were on Bill's side.

If that was said to the Secretary of State, it was not said in my presence.

He said it's a block, he said he wouldn't go, and then this was in the afternoon, and just the men were sitting around.

Well, I imagine one would have said that.

And then Wayne Hayes said, no, sir, he wouldn't.

But Hayes said...

to John Sherman Cooper.

You'll have to take care of the Simonton award thing all by yourself because I'm going to be at the warehouse.

ASIC?

Yes.

They'll also maybe start reading things into it.

Bill should not allow them to stay.

He should have said, you're a damn fool.

You should go.

That's what he should say.

I should.

Why doesn't he speak up and take, whether it's all part of the game or all that?

For Christ's sakes.

He doesn't want to do this damn thing.

I should say.

He's busy.

He's busy as hell.

I should say, Mr. President, that during the dinner, we had three tables of eight each.

Bill Rogers was seated to my wife's right, and Clem Zablocki was at that table, and Clem brought up the whole question of the Kissinger-Rogers thing, and Bill knocked it down.

Bill...

Barbara said he very affirmatively just said why there isn't anything to that.

I have the best relationship with Henry.

We're both working for the president.

Barbara said he was very effective during the visit in knocking it down.

Well, that all happened after what the hell happened.

Well, all I can conclude, Bob, is that...

He found out about the briefing, which he didn't know about.

He called it his own match of a total joke.

Yeah.

And, Mr. President,

Perhaps I should have, you know, taken control of it.

No, I don't think you've got to.

You know, we do so much.

But so much is, why do we have to call our own people if we have a guy there about us?

You know.

I know.

Well, that's the point.

You figure you notify him that you have this staff man.

And also, what you've got is therefore not intentional.

If you have this man, you're not trying to hide very... No, and we've had to reschedule the session with the House, which...

The last schedule was Wednesday.

We had to reschedule it three times.

And I am of the opinion that I said to Dave Abshaw, now we've got to reschedule this thing with Henry, so knock it off your calendar for whatever the original date was.

I can't prove that I said that, but it's my recollection, Mr. President, that I did.

Do you think Abshaw knew about it as well as the other guys?

Well, you're not right.

Oh, God.

If he did this, it was purely oversight, not intent.

And they retired me at the very best.

It's a problem, and Bill is extremely sensitive, and rightly so, about these damage attacks.

He's got to realize the impact's real here, not the level of the impact.

I mean, it's a little bit hard for Paul.

Everybody's got a share of vanity for him.

He's not realizing it.

You remember.

I didn't see Bill in here say, what can I do to defend Henry when Henry was under enormous detachment and he had vanished in that.

Do you remember that?

Yes, sir.

They tore his living for Jesus.

He dug himself, you know, practically.

He was under enormous detachment.

Did anybody call him and say, what can we do to help Henry?

No, sir.

In fairness, we have to realize that I've never seen Henry come to the state, but I've never heard what Bill said in the presence of your wife.

Barbara said Bill handled it very skillfully and just sort of said, why?

Glenn presented too bad.

That's just a bunch of newspaper talk.

But you see, the whole purpose of our influence is to create the impression that the administration is divided.

It's, and also every, I thought like Bill should know better, he's been around in Washington a lot longer than Henry.

But Clark, you know very well, it's par for the course.

You always have to talk about who's gonna be thrown out, who's gonna stay in.

Somebody is here for a little while.

Somebody's a disfavor, somebody's an invader.

And 90% of it's great.

Isn't this true?

It's just not true.

And another thing, Mr. President,

Nobody cares much about it except a small circle around Washington, D.C. or out of Minneapolis and I dare say Whittier and elsewhere.

It doesn't matter.

Sir, we don't know Whittier.

We don't know who the hell they are.

John Powell, a rock star.

I'm a soda pop.

Oh, that's sure true.

It's like that Stuart Alsop column, you know, this be a...

So even though there's a lot of turmoil in Washington, even though it's agreed it's about Congress, it doesn't change anything.

Of course, the problem is these folks move in these social circles.

Bill has written something in which there was also written that they're lacking in the Secretary of State.

And so forth.

Bill believes this.

And to give a last laugh after the press,

And that is not true either.

I don't think they are either.

Well, some of them in that incestuous little group, some of them probably are.

Because they need a lot of diplomats.

They just don't know about the diplomats.

Well, they matter.

He's Secretary of State.

They are a whole different matter.

I could see last night that George and Lola Akin and Johnny Truman and Lorraine Cooper are very respectful of the Secretary of State and Mrs. Rogers.

I'm not sure.

I didn't see any indication

Anybody who was there last night, Bill Meyer and his wife were there.

They know the game.

They know what this is all about.

This is it.

The only way you can lose to that kind of thing is if you react as a back.

It's the only way.

I guess we'll put out a story in the effect of Robert's insistence.

It's Doc Morgan's inability to be there.

I will say that on my own initiative, I rescheduled it because it wouldn't be right, I know this from 10 years of experience now, to have a session when the chairman of the committee could not be present because they're having a discussion about it.

So they can hear.

Let me ask you one other thing.

Bob was, I was talking about

all the work that he's done and so forth.

Do you think as we get further along, we're going to run into some problems with some parts of the flags and so forth?

I'm wondering.

I'm wondering, you know, you've got it right in there.

Maybe I think you may have to sort of reduce it to your Republicans.

I think we will.

You see my point?

I thought...

I thought it was going to happen.

I said, I don't think so.

I don't think so.

I said, you're pressing on a piece of it.

No, I think you're right.

Right.

You know, the basic idea was sound.

But I think you're right.

And what we looked at was the...

We look at war powers and we look at this business and all the things that are going through the Senate and we're going to say to the House Foreign Affairs Committee, you know, you've got to stand up for the Senate.

You've got to do it differently.

I think in terms of the future, you've got to realize that we're a part of the game.

Does he really, to the letter, he's fighting like hell all these months to get the picture in?

I don't require, I wouldn't let any of your people get into it.

He stirred up his courage and his hearts and said, Jesus Christ, it's going to get a lot rougher.

I mean, you take this whole idea, and I agree with you on that.

But once you look at it from the merits,

So, in everything we've said, we've gone very far.

Heidi and Pete's stock goes down 12 points today, and the announcement was made.

They might have a $2 billion investment.

They didn't like the sentiment.

Janine bitched about the goddamn sentiment.

So the second, they both testified and are honorable guys, and for sure they had different ideas.

The third one, though, is the most important, is that in terms of the

because of the contribution.

Let us assume that this works, that we were unbanking, banking, and all that stuff.

Does anybody in the joint mind think that the Justice Department would make a settlement because of a stinking little contribution made by the shared hotels?

We went to four hotels in San Diego for your identification.

They wouldn't even, because God, they can get that money from any place.

You know, it's the way it is.

So you've got to just ride it through.

It's too bad, isn't it?

That's the game.

It sure is today.

We have tried to...

I should say I have tried to determine some strategy to bring hearings to an early termination.

No way.

Because whereas Jim Eastland likes conservative judges that you appoint and has been helpful in the Justice Department in other ways, he is, after all, a Democrat and one...

I...

and say to him, we ought to try and terminate these hearings before the end of next week.

He said, well, I've got four senators on my committee who've asked me for these witnesses.

And he said, I can't very well say no.

So he is not going to be helpful to us in this country.

Thank you very much, Chris.

You're welcome, Bob.

Well, I'll let your teeth on you.

No, I regret this.

Do you have any proof?

No, I don't.

I haven't gotten any more since we talked.

Hopefully we can get some today.

Mitchell this morning said they were eating bait.

He thought they were getting some.

He didn't ask me that.

He said it's...

But he had that in his report.

Do you think we're going to be...

I don't think you accomplish anything there.

You throw maybe to the wolves that the wolves just take the order.

They're going to run right out and buy it.

Their interest is in claims at this point.

I'm interested in the bill.

I'm glad we have Clark in.

He did speak up that it was a blocking thing.

But he does.

But then what in the hell is he talking about?

Is he playing two level games at it?

He does.

In his interviews, he does a good job on that.

He answers that question very well.

And he keeps going back to the, we've got a good one policy and it's working.

That's the test of whether the setup is right or not.

No problem.

See, he has to, for his own public interest,

His public posture has got to be that everything is just fine.

His people drop all their believable things, etc.

And then he believes that as well as being pushed by that.

So he gets all disturbed internally.

The people saw the speech, saw your speech.

Over the edge, that's what I'm hearing.

They didn't say what the people thought.

The people were out ahead of the commentators.

Hmm.

Yeah, which is why I get the speech going.

Listening ears, or accepting ears.

Why not all of you, starting down?

Just about right.

I mean...

to start on our auditory programs.

And I guess there's really not a better thing to do than a press conference.

I've just thought it all through.

It's better than a speech.

And it's better than a parade.

We talked about those other kinds of Q&As.

And you just, nobody else asks the questions, right?

And also, if you have a problem, you can't even carry it.

You're going to be bound in Detroit.

That was so good, but it wasn't as good as the press conference.

It wasn't.

No, we didn't have a spark.

It also couldn't carry it.

Remember?

Yeah, just wanted to say that.

Regional.

I think the main thing to do is to go right ahead and try to bust one out of there about every three weeks.

Is that correct?

Yep.

And do it on TV.

And let them carry it.

Because they will.

As soon as you go back on TV, they'll start streaming the TV and television.

That's the plan.

Good.

Then when you're not on, then they'll say, oh, I thought you had the television.

That's been sold out for them.

They're asking to hear about a localized press conference.

Yeah.

All right.

They're going to get them out.

Right, Nick?

Right.

Good choice.

Correct.

I can see this.

He's a fighter, too.

And it just burned to his ass, and it was a little squeal as we changed the date of this meeting, and that's it.

Yeah.

That's about it.

Thank you for your statement.

You know, and because he... Yeah.

He's worried about being placed.

I don't miss it at all.

It's all about it.

Oh, why not?

It's going to be quite an hour.

Is it?

One of us is going to get so near to that door.

Where is it?