Conversation 683-020

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But there's an old strain.

I can go tomorrow or later this afternoon.

Mr. James Keele.

He was barred off by our staff.

That's him, Mr. President.

Hi, how are you?

Mr. President, this is Ken Foster.

Yeah, sure.

Mr. Lee, you've met him.

Yeah, I've met him, sir.

See you.

Thank you.

Well, I find it was very easy to make the transition from Mrs. Graham to over here.

You know, I was just thinking, I just got a call from Jim Keele, somebody.

He said he'd come in very, very late.

I tell you, Don, you know, it's like Thomas Wolfe's, you know, I'm convinced that we can't go home again.

Right.

We can't go home again, for sure.

I figured by April 11th, they might, they might.

The real problem, I think, that our national press have, and I mean, I don't all have, but it's a, we all know that everybody in government is too damn sensitive about press criticism and any other kind of criticism.

But I think perhaps some of the press have to learn to be

I'm not so sensitive about criticism, and I'm just assuming that every time somebody says anything, they're trying to repress them.

That's what it is.

They're trying to repress them.

I mean, obviously guys and freshmen make mistakes, just like these guys.

Hello?

Yeah.

Hello?

Jim, I wanted you to know that they just brought me in an autographed copy of your book.

I can't tell you that I read it, but I just looked at the titles, and I imagine it's very good reading.

I hope that some people have the good sense to buy it.

If they don't get that, I'm going to see that some of my friends receive copies of it.

But don't give it, let me tell you, we're going to buy it.

And it sounds extremely interesting.

Is it going to, do you think anybody will review it, or will they black you out?

Well, they sort of sank that effort, but I don't think they could review it much.

But in your case, I guess they really have to review yours because of the position you held, don't you think?

Right.

Well, boy, I hope they do.

And as I say, I'm just sitting here with Cam Glossman, who's come with us now.

He used to be in one of the publications here in town.

And I just said, you can't go home again now.

That's your problem.

Yeah, I hope you enjoy it.

And I hope your other opus is coming along well, too.

Right.

Yeah, I talked to them, and I got ahold of them.

I tried to get the kids, me and others, I'm trying to recall them.

I just, you know, things of that sort are so hard to recall, but I think they've probably given you a little flavor.

Yeah, right.

Right.

This is on a personal stuff, yeah.

Close.

Oh, shame.

Boy, those are the hardest things to find.

Well, okay.

Well, we mentioned, I'll see that I talk your book up without ever having read it.

Don't, but don't, but assume I never read it.

You see, I would knock down my credentials as being an only thing if I read a book.

Yeah, it ought to.

Okay.

Well, I give our best to you.

Bye.

Well, let's go.

Where did you, uh, you, uh, you, uh,

That's where Ben Bradley recruited me.

That's right.

And then you, before that, were you looking close to... No, I worked for Paul Block Jr. Cools.

Toledo?

Toledo, Pittsburgh, Monterey, California.

Monterey, what a wonderful place.

Have you ever been to that?

I made one quick visit with Paul Block.

I used to know the fellow that used to have that picture.

He's a farmer guy, and A.I.D., and a black farmer.

But I'd like to know.

That's like the Philadelphia Bulletin people bought the Santa Barbara Free Press.

There's only one reason to buy it.

That is because it's a nice place to go to.

Monterey is a wonderful place to go to visit.

Oh, and I should ask you for a mention on the bill.

Oh, yes, it does.

Because it's in an area where...

or people who know about that.

And actually, there are just an awful lot of papers in smaller towns, suburban towns, and just on my campus.

I think that's good.

Return on the investment is much, much higher.

That's very good.

Yeah.

I was originally a labor reporter out of the southern state of Michigan.

You were from Detroit?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

I hear Mr. Hoppe, when he was only president of Local 299, he tried... You know, I feel a little bit, uh, a little bit, uh, denied that I was one of the few people in the government that never met Jack Motto.

One time, somebody told me, after I got off the plane, I think when I was vice president, we didn't have any, I don't even know if it was the government, I'm not sure, I didn't know if it was a direct commercial,

In fact, before her and I drove back, it was almost sitting across from the next, that was Jimmy Hoffa.

They say he's quite a guy.

I knew him, I knew Dave Beck, who was quite a guy, too.

I mean, he may have been pregnant, but maybe Hoffa was.

But I'll tell you, there was nothing wrong with his backbone.

because of God, which often impresses me.

I mean, I don't mean it simply because a person has guts that he has the right to the credit, but nevertheless, these spineless morals that run around, they don't send me none at all.

It was very true.

Hypocrisy and sanctimonious softness, and they aren't the kind of things that make countries

When Jimmy gave his word at the bargaining table, you could count on it for the duration of that conversation.

The same is true of Dave Beckham.

All the people up there in Seattle swore by him right back.

They said to Jim, I mean, you know, God, they have the old man.

Of course, we didn't know him.

He was a test driver.

But Beckham was a follower of the command.

I don't know.

I watched Jimmy go through issues and answers with the president about three weeks ago, four weeks ago.

I mean, look.

He did.

He put out one of the most impressive performances.

Did he?

I've seen a man on television do it.

He was spurring.

He was crisp.

His words were well-chosen.

He asked quick with his answers.

And he gave that impression of real guts.

I mean, he gave the impression of a strong, determined character.

It's quite interesting to hear that.

And as Chuck and I said to each other later, we couldn't have written a better script.

Oh, that's right.

Oh, he was just great.

He really was.

He was asked who he would endorse this year, and he said he wouldn't endorse anyone.

At this point, he wasn't good.

And then he said, he was asked, who do you think is the best qualified man in the prison?

And he said, well, Melvin Wilcox.

And he said, well, he asked if I'd been here now, and I think it's, I think Richard Henson's the only man.

I have tea.

Would you like tea or coffee?

He called us all up seven years ago.

Yes, sir.

He called me.

He's got a heart that's strong.

Sure does.

He's so strong.

And he said he's the only man who's as well as I do.

that you will find as a former member of the press, at least on sabbatical and the

But it's pretty difficult, you know what I mean?

I mean, it was difficult for Clark and all of us.

He was a proud, decent guy for the press to get.

I'm sure he enjoyed it, but he was laughing it back.

I'm sure you may find the same thing.

I think it's good, however, for those who have been honest members of the press to be in the administration for a while, to see the other side of the living glass, and to realize that

You know, I found that the trouble with Charlie and I is that we're so much alike that the rumors

See, he's a Marine.

That's why he finds all his problems.

Well, maybe not so.

Go ahead.

No, I think that I tried to, when I was writing for the Post and covering you, which, by the way, the three trips to California in 1970 made a Republican out of my wife, we covered you on all three of those California trips.

Yeah.

But we tried to write fairly about you, and that's how I got to know Charlie and Fred Malick and some of the other people.

You got to know Malick.

He's a great fellow.

And I was one of the temptations of joining you was the caliber of person you had working for you.

They are.

They're good men.

They call us like we call them.

Because we pay them.

Well, it's too bad you had to step right into something like, what is it, IT?

Thank goodness he stepped into it, Mr. President.

He's so... Well, it's one of those things where I mean, I was looking for...

And your name ditched him.

He was never recovered.

His side was never recovered.

His name ditched him.

They had to spin off, which was apparently the best one.

Of course, he was a big loser.

I don't know what the others were.

Davis, Davis, Davis was pretty funny.

The second part of the settlement, now the point was that even though it was not a settlement, it was a much more ambitious country, was the settlement lineup was a fix.

Well, Griswold, let's leave out McClain.

Griswold was a man we inherited from the Graves' administration, a paragon of virtue, a folly that everybody thinks is above the law.

People who was raving about him, he continued in the solicitor general, he's just very conceited.

He knew that he'd get his ass beat in the Supreme Court.

Griswold didn't like to lose cases.

It's like he didn't like to lose the Pentagon papers case.

Although he argued, well,

So, there's that, and all the lyrics, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the,

Well, because the Sheraton Hotels gave $100,000 to the San Diego host committee.

Now, is anybody in his right mind thinking that would be a consideration in particular in case of any influence on the White House?

My God, I might even get money for a convention.

It's easy as possible, but I can't get the day out.

That's easy.

I don't need more than going to San Diego.

My choice was Chicago.

That was where Robin and I stayed out.

And I was for Chicago first, San Diego second, Miami third, those were mine.

But I said, take any one of the three.

But nevertheless, there's your problem.

Now, obviously, you've got the case.

And I must say, though you do get reasonable credit, it's very uncultured.

What's the latest in today?

Well, a few things have been crystal-spread.

The Crooks letter I employed reasonably well.

We didn't get more time to give a special break.

The Post carried it.

CBS had it last night.

But more importantly than that, it's created a little bit of a stir for people that began to ask questions.

leaking out some bits and pieces of information that may come out tomorrow that is going to get to some real questions of credibility in the memorandum.

How long, really, can the thing that I think is important is that, having been an old investigator, just keep it going.

Are they going to keep it going so long?

I don't think there's any way you can stop it.

Somebody was saying, for example, well, if Clandy's just withdraw his name and stop everything else,

Well, they just continued to get a little blood.

Do you agree?

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.

I mean, I thought somebody came in here and got me through a lot of the office.

I said, well, it's not very false or wrong.

I mean, I mean, quite a decent and honest man.

So true.

The second point, what you're trying to do is you're all about to do something.

You're going to say, well, I'm going to see something here.

I mean, I'm all for it.

If anything is wrong, I'll go.

I mean, I'd be the person to be ruthless as it can be.

Well, I'll tell you, when something like this, which is open, I understand, a legitimate matter is questioned.

But this memorandum,

In my view, looking as an old investigator, it's false in its face.

I mean, it's obviously an exposed fact.

We don't mind.

That's what I mean.

I don't mind.

I mean, you can guess it.

But that is my own reasoning.

I'm like, it's false.

It is.

People get it.

Maybe I should investigate it.

In this case, I don't know what else.

As they have reported back today, what I have been absolutely convinced of for a week, can I say to my right, was not written by Lita Beard.

It's not what you get from the second.

Not written by her.

That's what we know about that.

They're working on ATT&CK, and they believe it might have been someone else inside of IT&T, or it may indeed have been inspired by Jack Anderson's secretary.

His name is Opal Ginn.

Have you ever thought of getting her on?

I haven't thought of getting her.

I remember I said to her, I understand.

Which I like very much.

They won't call her.

Well, Eastland is playing a very cute game.

On the one hand, he's trying to help find these, because he's going to be smart.

And he wants to get the hearings over with and get findings confirmed.

On the other hand, he is not going like this.

He's not going on his way to cut down Teddy.

Now, there are two things that are happening tomorrow.

We discovered that Mr. Turner, who was the anti-crush chief under Johnson, proceeded in the choir, was presented with a prosecuted memorandum in the

I.T.P.

case.

They're calling us.

And the idea of getting some other law school professors and American Bar Association people who will say in testimony, and I think this would have to be covered, that this was the biggest settlement ever, among other things, which you can't find in print, is the agreement that

that IT&T couldn't acquire any other company for 10 years without the permission of the Justice Department.

That just kind of .

And acquisitions is the way your stock goes.

That's right.

We've got some of that in the works.

We've got some other people that come in and support us.

And we're putting top pressure on two areas,

are people on the hill with a sitar because every one you have to educate from scratch.

The first one already there, I guess I'm gonna try to exploit the

Lack of authenticity.

On that story, though, what about Dina?

Is she in or out or sideways?

She's sideways at the moment.

Her lawyers have been talking to her, and we've been getting third-hand reports.

And she herself says she doesn't remember preparing this memo.

That's her latest story.

But she's holding something back, because I'm convinced she knows who did prepare it.

I'm convinced that it was a memo that she wrote, and someone took it and rewrote it to add four damaging sentences, because they're non-exceptives of another four damaging sentences.

Well, I'm just reviewing that with confidence.

The memorandum talks strictly about...

I thought we had an understanding that we would only be talking to certain people about this case.

about this contribution to the city of San Diego.

And now I understand that Ned Garrity and you, the administrator, are upset about the fact that the commitment is in services.

And then she says, believe me, this is not what Hal said just after I talked to Ned.

Wilson called me to report on his meeting with Hal.

Hal at no time told Wilson that our definition would be in services only.

In fact, quite to the contrary, the divers will cash you more, and certainly some.

Then comes... That's good.

Yeah, then comes essence.

I am convinced, because of several conversations with Louie, Louie Nunn, Ray Mitchell, that our noble commitment has gone a long way toward a negotiation of mergers eventually coming out as Al wants it.

Certainly the President has told Michigan to see if things have worked out fairly.

It is still only McClaren's victory, though, so we are suffering.

Right in the next sentence, which says, we only know how, we all know how in this big mud, but this is one time you cannot tell you and Ed one thing and Wilson and me another.

The business of a commitment and the emergency negotiations that you and the Attorney General is interposed in between one logical thought, which is,

We all agreed what this was for.

Now the signals are being changed.

God damn it, you can't tell me one thing and somebody else something else.

And in the middle of that comes the only damaging sentence in the whole damn letter, which says, I am convinced that our noble commitment has gone a long way toward our negotiation.

The merge is eventually coming out as hell wants it to.

Certainly, the president is still official to see the things we worked at.

Fairly, it is still only the point in time.

It looks as if I was sitting here worrying about a $400,000 or a goddamn convention.

I couldn't care less.

But, in fact, I did care about this settlement.

Only because I was watching John.

I had a crush on John.

And I figured, where are you getting some of the money from?

Nothing to do with settlements here in this office.

They know it.

That is the trouble.

That is the trouble they can't have.

But this fellow was a phony.

That sentence, those sentences, do you think those sentences... Well, of course you can't get a person who's on the booties or a family who's likely to put in an irrational

I know, Mr. President.

The whole thing... Not in the middle of it.

The only damaging material in the memo is out of context with the rest of the memo, and that's why I'm saying... Out of context.

Out of context.

It's one complete thought with a damaging paragraph interposed in the middle of that thought, which just doesn't make sense.

And even in an inebriated condition, I don't think that you... You might put the damaging paragraph at the end of the letter, actually, but you wouldn't interrupt your thought to include this in there.

And that's what it is.

It's an out-of-context paragraph that is most damaging.

And it is.

It's right in the middle of the book.

You see, it's just a book.

It's thrown in there.

Because the first amount they probably did get was...

So when are they going to have her or anything?

Is there any chance to get her deposition or anything?

Or what's going to happen?

Well, what we have now, Mr. President, are depositions of sorts that her own lawyer has taken.

extensive notes and she's initialed, but so that we're protected and if she should die, there's some record being kept.

But the committee investigators are there and the two members of the committee that are to be appointed may be able to interview her by Wednesday or Thursday in her hospital room.

And I am not sure that we want that to happen until we see what happens tomorrow in the executive session.

If they have an executive session, then there's a possibility of impeaching Anderson's testimony or holding him in contempt on this charge that Cook made yesterday, which, by the way, has them very upset that we can't anticipate a return.

Having given it to Ted Kennedy, he's going to say, well, I'm sorry.

It doesn't make him look great.

Well, he answered right away.

He should have told him right away, no.

But he answered, he said, I've just got to get them back.

Why the rest of you do it?

Well, the rest of them were asking for it, so they wouldn't give it.

From a public relations standpoint, the problem that we're facing here is a very interesting one, in which Anderson, Kennedy, and Kennedy's staff, and the general news media covering this, are indeed comparing notes and sharing information all around.

We've had several instances in which we've talked to a newspaper reporter only to find Kennedy's man talking later on and bringing up that.

So we're really in difficult shape.

The very reporters who are covering the hearings and reporting the hearings are working with Anderson and with Kennedy.

And that's the real problem that we're facing.

So you have to be investigators.

That's why, for example, when the Marlowe-Cook letter went out on Saturday for release at 6 p.m. on Sunday, Anderson immediately had it, Kennedy immediately had it, even though no reporter actually sat down and wrote the story until Sunday afternoon, which has led me to tell everyone concerned, let's hand-deliver these things at the last minute whenever we want to put out some sort of a release.

Because the intelligence that Anderson and Kennedy have is so good that we're just not going to be able to have something in a report that stands for three or four hours.

Jimmy Flug and Mike Epstein are out of the Justice Department, and they're the two staff people who are honcho out of the Justice Department.

And that's a real problem.

Kennedy has decided he's going to rule.

He's going to stay with it.

That's, that's a double incentive for us to prove this memo fake and bloated.

I don't think you, you really think you have a chance to prove it?

Yes, sir.

How?

What happened?

She said, you've got to, you've got to get Anderson's secretary.

How the hell?

She's not, she's not alive.

But you don't need a bearded secretary who says, yes, I remember the memo, but there's something funny about it, because it never referred to President Nixon or the Attorney General.

If it had, I would have remembered that, and I know it didn't.

Well, she's helping Canada.

And we may be able to get her.

We do have a statement from her.

We know that's what she said.

Yes, sir.

How people would say she's fixed.

Maybe.

We also have this one out today that's her testimony of every employee of IT&T that they've ever served.

We also know that Jack Anderson turned over the original to the committee, which means they got that security statement.

Oh, well, there are about six elements of it that are very curious, including the fact that in the way in which it reads, I must say.

And then, of course, the blow would be if Dina Veer will tell really who did it.

I still think she's covered.

I think she's involved in making this story.

And she's... Who do you think she's leading?

I think Jack Anderson's secretary.