Conversation 687-003

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way to go this is

$40 Santa Claus for the drink.

He would give the drink.

When he traveled with Rockefeller, one of the girls from the party told me he touched that.

I mean... Just $40?

No, no, he offered them $300.

He put $300 in their shoes.

For what purpose?

He's a sleeper then.

I was told that three years ago.

On the airplane?

I guess that they put the shoes in front of their doors there to get them signed, and he put little notes on them.

We are not going to let a guy chase after girls.

I mean, the goddamn State Department is full of fairies.

And still is.

And we say nothing about it.

You know what I mean?

Because that's the way the goddamn outfit is.

Are we going to persecute a guy because he chases girls?

And he has to be really very loyal and has got to talk about it.

Good job.

I didn't think much of him when he got the job because of those stories, but he's done a good job.

He didn't totally look like a goddamned...

I had to put a keeper on him, though.

I wouldn't let him do this again.

Well, I thought he...

I knew he had gone to a psychiatrist after that.

After the Rockefeller trip, he went to a psychiatrist.

That's his trouble.

He should never go to a psychiatrist.

I thought he was pure.

Apparently he had a drinking problem some years ago, and then he quit drinking.

The story is that he only drinks a little Dubonnet now, and doesn't drink otherwise.

I stayed at his house, and I've never seen him get poisoned.

When we were there on our trip, he had himself killed.

And I stayed there twice, just coming through Paris.

He's always been in class.

I mean, you know, you can privately meet and drink and get boys...

I think they have to cover themselves.

All the evidence we have is...

They are in positions from which they can jump off, but... Well, listen, will you consider whether or not we ought to have Larry in?

And I would take Larry Peterson and Buzz.

We're sending Buzz tonight.

I know, I know.

I wouldn't take them all with us, but I'd have them fly over.

You see the problem, John, we have here?

You don't know, probably, about the rock.

on the other hand it presents a problem i must say oh i can bring all the people in the area

But the problem we have with Rogers, I guess, is market cannibalism.

We just learn to have them, can't we?

I think we can.

That's it.

While we're talking, when are you going to make your plan?

No, I'm going tomorrow.

I just felt that I don't.

You may not know this.

I just felt that I don't go.

The point that I take is that go when you can, but go for 10 days.

All right.

Well, I'll go tomorrow noon, and I'll be back.

But I've got to be back no later than Monday evening.

Good.

Where are you going to go?

I'll go to Acapulco.

Is that a place?

Yeah.

That's a good place.

I hope so.

What do you mean?

Who's he got?

It's Warren.

I'll have to tell him.

I got it.

Oh, man.

It's a Mexican.

I'll have to talk to it, and I'll leave myself.

But the Mexicans sent me another plane.

There's a guy named who's about 65 years of age, who has an absolutely beautiful .

Well, that's great.

So you're leaving tomorrow?

Yeah.

Great.

Well, I'll tell you, the many we can do to make it better.

What do you think?

I'll work on the medley for you next week.

You know, the more I see of it, though, I think, Henry, that I've got to get to work at some point on the, uh, on the damn Moscow, uh... Oh, yeah.

Thank you.

You got a reading file for the president of Maryland?

I'm supposed to put it in the middle of the house.

But why have you got a reading file?

I have a reading file.

At this point, I do not have a reading file.

Do you think it's better if you draw a map of the agreement here?

I think it's probably better if you don't mind because that way people won't see it.

All right, good.

I'll be over in 10 or 15 minutes.

Have a great first, okay?

Good.

And it shouldn't take more than five minutes.

I'm glad he's going.

He needs the rest.

I told you he was fine.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, he's wearing out now.

He said, well, if he didn't go now, he wouldn't go.

And that's the best reason of all the way.

Well, I want to say to you, John, and this is telling Bob, that I want you to be more aggressive.

and these damn breathing things to step into it and do it now.

I mean, I love George Shultz, and I love Richardson, and I used to curse his mind on other things.

But when you're talking to a bunch of congressmen, I mean, you've got to lay it in and not sort of drone on and adapt that monotone.

And in fact, as you remember, you saw the reason I sent you those two notes.

I know these guys.

I know exactly what they're up to.

And I don't think it impresses them a bit to be responsible.

Do you agree or not?

I got your message.

Well, I don't know whether I got your message.

Here's the problem.

Our problem is that we know we're not going to get the left with this.

The main thing is not to lose the right.

That's the problem.

And so, for Christ's sake, say the right things.

I mean, our people, our parents, our parents, if this child voluntarily decides he wants to do this and that, I don't think, God damn, he'll leave most fast.

See my point?

That's fine.

That's it.

we uh but all but how did we go over here there were no major or no major troubles that they got

Well, I'd say it's hard work.

How many can you?

A room full.

Well, I'm glad to go.

Good.

Well, you've got a book.

Enjoy the trip.

You'll be sure to tie it off.

Hmm.

Not till next week.

I'm going, uh, I'll be away a week.

A week after the next.

Good.

Where are you going?

Well, I'll do some television.

I have a job for a day.

Good.

Well, how do you think of the Spaniards now?

How are we going?

This looks pretty good.

I read the first part of it, but then it says,

Mansfield said the busing issue is the most difficult and most perplexing issue to come before the Senate in his 20 years as a member, and that Congress has no choice but to act on it.

It appears to me that there is a great deal more that the courts can do, and perhaps in some instances they have gone entirely too far, he said.

He's still Mansfield.

Bobby Griffin backed the president's approach and predicted unless pro-busing senators initiated a filibuster, we ought to have a bill on his desk within a few weeks.

Griffin has proposed any busting that was similar to Nixon's approach last month, and Maryland lost 10 of both, so he also has encouraged the next Justice Department to intervene in the appropriate case to argue against busting.

The Constitutional Amendment may be the lead out of this arrest.

That we're against it?

Yeah.

No, no, no.

They told the leaders that if for any reason your legislation is unconstitutional, you go for a constitutional amendment.

That's right.

You got one problem.

McCulloch is with you for some reason.

He doesn't understand.

He says the president may have gone a long way towards solving this most difficult problem.

The interesting line in the leaders' group, the leaders, was that, well, even Jack said that last night we did, you know,

What do you say?

How?

Now?

The Javits?

They're going up.

Javits ranking Republican flesh immediately.

To do my utmost to see that that is done, that is to get the plan into the conference panel.

Here's what they understand.

They understand that people got to be used with ambition.

Well, I mean, you just toss them the hottest basketball they've ever caught, and they're all standing there going like this, and they don't know what to do.

Except for that.

The usual, the curse was the only one clever enough to set it down.

And what he even knew about this, of course, he didn't know he was on the Fox.

But we had a response to that.

In terms of constitutionality, I think he threw the ball in the back and said, go get a constitutional manager.

That's right.

Well, it's true.

And I think it was good.

You see, the reason, John, I was talking so hard like these guys is that I knew, you know, the picture I said at the last, now look here.

It sounds good.

You've got to stop this fussing.

I said, the court can't do it.

In fact, the courts are going to go too far.

A constitutional amendment won't do it.

The president can't do it.

You know what I believe?

I've gone as far as I can.

And I said, it's only up to the Congress.

So the question is, are you going to do it?

Now, that puts it in language that they damn well understand.

You see, they pick up these returns.

And that's the thing that people have got to do in leaders meetings is write the script for them, write the story for them.

You know what I mean?

I knew the intricacies of the goddamn legislation, but I'm not going to go into the question of the 402 versus 406 and all that stuff.

Well, it's off in Salem at this point, and I talked with Javis and Cui a little while afterwards, and they're going to try and get this more important than the conference.

Not because they want them on target as much as because they're hung up higher.

They can't get a degree in the conference otherwise because they've got to be house-instructed conferees on a tough puzzle.

As you notice, I played dumb as hell.

I knew exactly what they were stuck on.

Well, I came along a little bit in the press conference.

Good.

And I said that I'd been very involved in the conference.

Did you notice that I also, however,

I was hoping you saw what I was doing, my rather naive questions about what would a constitutional amendment have in a House of Representatives.

But I got Bobby Griffin to say, well, we just don't have the votes for him.

But that is the point with me, that we've now laid that foundation.

Because if Wallace and his crowd are going to yell out for constitutional amendment, they'll say, that's a demagogue.

He's got to be attacked.

That's fine.

But incidentally, I know that some of our lawyers don't like the idea of my saying, I'll do a constitutional amendment.

The legislation isn't passed.

But that's what I believe.

I'm for that.

And if the courts decide this is unconstitutional, or if the Congress fails to act, then John, I have a responsibility to say, all right, I'm for a constitutional deal.

You're not on record.

We put you on record.

That's right.

Well, I put myself on record on that one.

But we don't do it now.

I said the preferred approach is a legislative approach.

And we're very responsible.

See, the first, again, Billy Ray George at one point, he finally looked up and said, well, we don't have to desegregate everything now.

And that's why we'll be in court in a week.

Let me tell you, this stuff about this job didn't want to help the job.

It is a splendid job.

And Ray Price's message is a damn classic business.

It's a beautiful message.

It really is.

They have really done a job.

And we've taken the hottest particular here and everything.

And it's really just getting the moratorium.

I don't forget the legislation, not this year, but getting the moratorium.

It's an enormous thing.

We will stop the new blessing orders.

At least it means we won't make the cancer any worse.

Isn't that right?

Absolutely.

It's actually marked way up on the wall.

I'm not sure how many people really care about this issue in the country.

I agree that people know about it.

Well, everything indicates that they don't care, except where there is a bus stop problem.

And there they care like hell.

And if you ask anybody, he always is against busing, right?

But if you say, what are you concerned about?

Nobody says busing, except where there's a problem.

I think that what we had to do was to do this on television for other reasons.

Where they do care about it.

They have to hear me say it, or otherwise it would be introduced.

I know, for example, I met with these three women, there were 25 of them in the advisory room.

All they were talking about was China.

I met with the White House fellows this morning, and all they wanted to know was China.

One guy asked one question on busing, and then I started to do an answer, and they obviously didn't want to hear it.

I've just been with the EA for political reasons, and all they wanted to talk about was busing.

Yeah.

See, I referred the busing people to you.

She asked, it was the girl, Molly, and I didn't know what the hell she was talking about.

Well, that's probably

No, no.

I called him.

I never got it.

Uh, he wouldn't take the call.

He finally called me back after the speech.

So he knew I had tried, but he, uh, I didn't really get to him.

But I have an appointment with him today, and so I'll go over this and tell him what I would have told him if I got there.

Oh, I just wanted to be sure, you know, he said that, since he was out.

Yeah, yeah.

He certainly is able to know that we've taken the line.

Oh, yeah.

He certainly doesn't stand out.

I'll get him up.

I'll get him to run now.

Yeah, he said it was the purpose of the call was to run.

Yeah, some of that, you know, we did not win a hard fight with the vice president, I would say.

But he's a great thinker, of course.

What the hell?

He thought he was for a much harder line.

Well, God damn it.

He came up against the constitutional man.

He doesn't buy any of his money.

He's with you on the bus.

He's against the school.

Smart of our starting.

He's for cutting down the bus.

He said he should have left all the other crap out.

Well, then you would have had

Well, potentially.

Well, wouldn't you have the Blacks really up the wall?

Or would you?

They weren't going to be for us.

But you would have no contention in the goddamn speech at all.

We had 10 of them in there last night.

All Blacks.

I mean, they planned something.

Oh, did you?

Oh, they did.

All right.

I saw her after a few.

Who said I could settle this?

Or any of them could?

No.

Well, sure they did.

He is just a...

I wasn't there.

That was Buchanan, Morgan, and Schultz.

Well, let's do that.

Well, you had to deal with it.

Well, his whole attitude is one of just wanting...

complain about everything.

And that's the only thing he knows.

We've got to make him feel better.

And so his talk to me was, John, never.

Because he was in good spirits when I talked to him yesterday morning.

You know, because he had done so well in college.

Sure.

I know.

And I told him about your concern about his voting.

Well, he's got a thing about just the domestic side of things here.

What the hell is he domestically then?

I don't know.

He's where we ain't.

You know, let me say this.

I think the Pennsylvania education probably will work very well.

I like my hands.

Money and greed, we have to do it.

I do as you guys help.

Pat, incidentally said, he'd be around here Monday.

If there's anything he can say or do, he'll do it.

He thinks this is a great way to move.

So he's really bored.

Brock's going to talk to, he's all for it.

Yeah, about Reagan.

Well, I don't see any talk of Reagan.

I wonder, I don't know what the report was on Reagan, which opens in Israel.

You know, I'm glad that I took John to be part of that speech.

I'm glad we did, but it's a more related talk.

I think of the...

Well, the first sapphire drab was a disaster.

And the banana drab was a disaster.

But I think the final sapphire drab was just too thin, tinny.

The rest.

And I had a feeling that the Green Plain came up with what was somewhat credible.

Well, I've heard a lot of good things about it.

And Chuck came up afterwards and said he thought it was a damn good speech.

And it didn't happen.

Well, Chuck is just basically critical.

He pitches 90% of the time.

When he says it's good, it's because he thought it was.

Well, it was.

It was actually a damn well-written speech.

It really was, in terms of the issue.

Well-written and well-delivered.

It was good.

I thought you were rather relaxed.

And sort of.

What was the speech that required a portrayal of inner conviction?

No, it wasn't.

I think it certainly portrayed what I was really thinking of all the time was about the crisis.

And I said, there you go.

That speech felt something like Wallace on one side, but the crisis felt something like Muskie and Jackson and Lansing.

I think it certainly felt like they saw a damn different picture.

That's why it was very good.

I hadn't thought about it until you came on.

But just putting you on, the argument for putting you on television on the issue was good.

But an argument that I hadn't thought about was just, you've been watching on television all these guys in those goddamn grubby election headquarters crying and saying, I really won, and all this sort of crap.

And then to see the sealed

The camera came in on the Oval Office, the President sitting here telling people what he really believes, exercising some leadership, talking about the problem, making the point, the best point in the whole thing, the one that's really going to matter in the long haul, is that you don't have to be anti-black to be an adolescent.

Well, that was the question I had.

And I put in one action key there which I think is good to say that it's a vicious libel on people to say if you're anti-muslim you're anti-black because parents are concerned.

Isn't that the little section about parents want to send their kids to their own schools in the neighborhood?

many buy schools, buy, buy, buy their homes in certain neighborhoods because they have good schools.

But their life savings are in actual contact with, you know, a lot of people.

But he did, he did a beautiful, he had a social plan, and that was pretty interesting.

I figured it was.

It's good that all we saved up in this draft, we provided.

But we go step down a little bit.

You can't imagine.

You have to deflect over time.

I'm serious.

Now he says, he says to her, children, you've got to be used as guinea pigs.

Oh my, if I'd ever been a guinea pig, he'd be dead.

That's a pretty good line.

Oh, boy.

Give me one example.

of where a judge is forced bussing to a key person.

Now, just one example.

A lot of these are CBS guys.

That was so Morgan said.

Well, how about this one, or this one, or this one, or this one?

I've had him researched this last night.

All right.

He did it very hot and angry.

And then there was this so-and-so, and then there was this so-and-so, and so-and-so, to name a few.

They had him reeled up, but he was not.

He was just really loaded to go.

Yeah.

But, John, don't read the page.

Well, you know what these guys do.

You know what these guys do.

I'm respectful of the Senate and all of them.

I mean, I think if I never died, I'd love those guys.

But I'm not going to work with these guys every day.

So I have to kind of measure how far I can take over.

Let me pause here.

And if I can do it and still make a point.

Yeah.

Without breaking it off.

No, I've got to try and keep going.

Oh, no.

But I don't believe you're speaking my word.

But I, the reason I wrote you the note was that I wanted to be sure that you did the discussion there.

That's the reason.

Because you could see when they started to talk, they were losing them.

Oh, sure.

Did you listen?

No question.

I've got a chairman of a cabinet committee there.

I've got a kind of...

We're going to get them all.

I think everybody's got about one.

I don't think you guys did very well.

I think I'm probably .