Conversation 688-018

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What's up?

How are you, sir?

Hello, what do you think of my tea tea?

What do you think of the IPC case?

Well, Senator, I think that this is a big threat, and they look to put something to sink in the administration.

And whatever they can find, in any case, they make a big fan of the election.

Yes, sir.

Plus, there is the attack on the Soviet Union.

It's only able to be with fine pictures like the Rackley building.

Some should have some of those Cuban friends there in Miami that could see that he goes over to visit there and say, oh, I wish I can send others.

But this is a big, big do-so-thing.

It's a very, very interesting thing to know that they work on that.

What do you think, sir?

What does the, uh,

And I just wanted to tell you about this.

Actually, her statement is pretty fair play.

You have to remember that, however, in terms of discrediting Anderson, her statement, of course, won't do it.

You've got to have the hard thing.

I've had a lot of typewriter events.

There is however a different tactic that has to be used on that federal jurisdiction, and it burned the hell out of us each month, and also all the committee members, but I know the investigators, I'm afraid, don't present that to the committee.

Congress, I couldn't not...

The thing to do is, the way I worked in this case, I had to get back to that.

I always presented the case to the press before I went to the committee.

And I got my side.

And then the committee, the sons of bitches that covered the committee, were one job behind, you see.

Now, here's the thing that you do with that.

You get that evidence and have them call a press conference or do whatever you want or have a story and have the goddamn thing break and then let the committee hear it the next day.

The reporters covered the committee, Chuck, are devastating.

Oh, they're just...

They're passing notes to the committee members.

They're just 100% against it.

We have... Mr. President, do you think that you did a very good statement that's had some effect?

Oh, what's that?

Oh, it's got them all scared to death.

You really think so?

Yes, sir.

They think she's lying?

Or they think she's telling the truth?

They think now she's about ready to come clean.

They're scared to death of what she's going to say.

And why is she beginning to talk of this?

You know, their argument is it's so late and so forth.

I think I know.

My guess is that she's probably in bed with a lot of people.

I mean, in many ways.

Yes.

And that she's, you just never know.

When I heard about the pitch and the door and the bartender, I was wondering about the ICT people themselves.

Well, there's just something to hold them service here that we don't see.

There's so much to this, Mr. President, that it just...

Probably it doesn't help us so much.

Yeah.

Oh, sure.

But if I could get it all out, this thing would blow up and Vita Beard would be destroyed.

Oh, would she?

She's in the whole thing?

She has a...

Well, I'm sorry, but she's got a homosexual relationship with Jack Anderson's secretary.

Do you really think so?

Yes, sir.

I mean, you could apply that to one of the hell of a lot of producers.

Well, you can, except for the fact there's the incredible cover-up they've done.

It's incredible to protect it.

Yeah.

And they, who's they?

All of her friends.

Her friends.

Helped by Anderson, obviously.

I mean, greatly helped by Anderson.

They know this is because it's an homosexual relationship.

Yeah, that's the one thing you see that... That's the one thing that they know she'll never reveal.

And so they've always got her...

They're like that.

Sure.

Yeah.

Another one.

Bring me... Bring me that one of the... Bring me that one of the...

I got one of the best apparatus in the business.

Mr. President, nobody knows this.

I go to my grave claiming I never told you or anybody else.

One of the best apparatus in the business is work

with me for quite a while.

20 years.

Absolute genius.

Bring me that.

He wants to

He went to them to the sleep in a complete physical disguise, and he doesn't exist with full credentials.

He's evaporated from the face of the earth.

He no longer exists.

And he's been out of the theater.

One of his stocks of credit over the years has been psychological warfare.

And he's the fellow who broke all the stuff about Castro's

sex life, which they, when they were trying to smear him.

He's quite a guy.

And he captured it in the sex life.

Sure.

And he broke it.

But he walked in the room, and he said, I was in that room four minutes, and I diagnosed the problem.

He said, the woman, he'd appeared.

How'd he get in her bed?

I don't know.

It was quite a... That's his... All right.

No, he spent hours with her.

And he said, the first four minutes, he said, I...

Totally identified a homosexual relationship.

She's the male.

Opal Ginn is the female.

Yeah, I figured it would be the male, or she's a big horsey.

So is Opal Ginn.

No, but I mean her head.

I don't know Opal Ginn, but Dina Berg is that typical masculine.

She's had five children, but she's obviously... Well, she needs other...

There's lots of people who have children, but I have different kinds of relationships.

They just do what they can.

You know, they really do.

They can't get enough of the knowledge.

And they have a falling out, which leads to an intense hatred, which is, it presently exists.

Oh, they, oh, I thought they were showing it out.

We think, we think the other theory.

We think that it could be, but we think the other theory.

But neither one of them wants to reveal the test.

We have, we have firsthand evidence of this being together in a very close

relationships years ago.

In other words, the two of them crunching together and going out in the middle of the night in a cab together.

It goes back several years, but they're both steadfastly holding to the story.

I don't know anything about it.

I met each other for the first time on January 27th.

If the whole story ultimately comes out, Peter Deer did this.

He did it to get even with IT&T.

I'm convinced that I'm always a fraud.

Absolutely convinced that it was written for the purpose of embarrassing IP&T.

By D. De Beers?

By D. De Beers.

How would it be a fraud, then?

Well, it's a fraud insensitive.

Well, it's a red cap.

Yeah.

And the only thing that really has to go on is the substance.

The committee has struck with the June 25th date.

Oh, sure.

It was.

Not only that, Mr. President, but a couple of times during the course of the hearings...

The number of members of the committee have said, well, the only charge that we have here is what's in Dita Beard's memo.

When Cook and Gurney and Scott and others have said, let's call this guy and get him hearing off, it's ridiculous.

There's no charge.

Kennedy and Tunney would come back and say, yes, of course there's a charge.

The charge is in the June 25th memo by Dita Beard.

That's the complete, I mean, that's the whole case of the

He didn't hesitate a minute.

I talked to him at 4 o'clock, and he said, by God, you have those cameras here in a half hour.

And I said, Hugh, go outside.

Stand outside.

Take your time to get in.

He's been great.

Oh, sure.

We were getting nowhere with Cook, which is why we switched.

Hugh's value in this...

But Eastland, if the memo is proven a fraud, Eastland will close the hearings down.

And then... Well, that's right.

But let's get findings confirmed and the vindication of the administration, and then let them go after Anderson.

Yes, sir.

Well, I... Yeah, that's what I want to try to do.

But we've got to prove it's a fraud.

We've had a weird twist.

Like everything that has happened in this goddamn thing, for two weeks, we had the whole... What's the latest we heard from her?

Well, Mrs. Lytel, Tytel, the typewriter expert.

She is homosexual, too?

No, no, no, she's great.

I had her in the FCD for two hours, and I interrogated her up and down and backwards and forwards, and there was no way that I could break her story.

Her story is that, first of all, electric typewriters are very, very difficult to work with, as compared to manual, in terms of determining impressions and what that is.

The only thing you can work with is the ribbon.

And the ribbon does have distinctive characteristics when the type hits the ribbon and leaves a carbon impression on the paper.

The other thing that you have to work with is the age of the type and peculiarities of individual characters, which do occur in electric typewriters after a period of time.

She swears, will swear on her own,

except we're not going to go under oath.

We're going to put her in a press sentence, we hope.

She says that there isn't any doubt in her mind that the memo was typed on a ribbon that was in the typewriter based on an examination of contemporaneous documents in January of this year, not in June of last year.

And I took her over the coals.

I tried to figure every possible way to discredit that.

The press will ask questions.

Knowing that the press would tear her up on it.

Maybe the press will ask better questions.

That's right.

But she's cool.

She's been on the Hill.

She's been used as a witness for years, 20 years she's been on it, in every court.

And she's a very cool customer.

That's right.

She's also got a little flaw in her reputation in that a couple of times they tried to impeach her because the size of her fee was related to the size of the case, which is not good.

Then we made a suit.

IT&T, Russia.

That's right.

That was a bad break.

It was a bad break.

In hindsight, you know, they didn't know there was a committee investigation.

They thought they were just protecting against Jack Anderson and a leak in their office.

So anybody would go in and tear that file down.

I can understand how that happened.

I don't know why they did it, but I'm not sure.

Sure, they did.

It's too bad.

Somebody in their office said it was done.

Or a jackhunter.

No, I think they were requested to provide certain documents, and they filled it with money right at the beginning, I think.

I'm not sure how it came.

Anyway, the FBI sent the documents, and they looked at the tests, and they told us before, we can't tell you much except the stock of the paper.

They gave us a very poor report.

Incomplete.

We raised no money.

yesterday god damn we want you to prove we want you to run every test known to man and they did they worked all last night they called this morning and said that based on chemical analysis of the types the letter was typed last June not this June now chemical analysis of the type now we've now gotten in the former head of the FBI documents section

And he says, Christ, you can't tell anything by a chemical analysis.

That's no way to test this paper.

And his opinion, which I've just had him in the office this morning, he's a hell of a sharp thought.

He's the former head of their document analysis.

He now works for Marty and the Justice Department.

He says, well, the Bureau did it the wrong way.

They thought you were being helpful.

They thought you wanted to prove this thing was authentic.

He talked to his fellows, and God knows how they got that impression.

And what he is doing is taking Mrs. Teitel and the Bureau people and kind of bringing an independent lab, and over this weekend, flush it out.

Now, he says that Teitel's technique is the very latest one.

It's presently being discussed in all the scientific discussions.

And it is probably unimpeachable unless the damn chemical analysis the Bureau has made

is reliable, but as he says, it'll be the first time that you really can make that kind of a chemical analysis test.

That's right.

That's exactly right.

Well, I think the Bureau, I talked to the Bureau man myself also.

I don't think so.

No, I don't think so.

I don't think so.

Oh, God, what a passion.

I mean, if we told Anderson about that, if we told Hoover about this, I think he'd go that hero man.

But that's not the way.

I don't think J.F.

Hoover has any scruples at all in terms of getting Anderson.

Okay.

Now, so if you're doing this weekend, what's the latest?

What's going to be out in the air?

Well, that's a very interesting question.

Yes, sir.

She's in bad shape physically.

When my operative was out there on Thursday, he said that she was taking oxygen while he was talking to her.

No question she's in bad shape.

The best thing that could happen is if she bought the farm right now, that's why I got that deposition out, because there's a chance of that any day of the week.

Sure are.

And the reason that I decided to go that route yesterday was purely out of fear that she wouldn't make it.

Yeah.

I just want to have her out there.

I think it helps us, you know, somebody has said to me that

Not anybody in our office here would have a key with a gun.

And we didn't help because they said, I said, oh, you're kidding.

I said, for Christ's sakes, it was the whole strategy.

The whole strategy of the left wing in this Chambers case was not to defend his, but to attack Chambers.

The whole strategy that you should have in this case, that we should have, is not to defend IDD, but to attack the witness.

Attack the witness, not defend mine.

We should attack the witness.

Exactly.

The whole strategy.

It's all affirmative.

The Bureau's analysis, Mr. President, just so you understand the complexity of this, is one that is never relied upon to prove the age of a document.

It's usually a technique where they try to identify a particular document in relationship to a particular tape, where they can compare a tape with a document.

They're using it to compare contemporaneous documents.

Mrs. Lytel, Tytel, says that the chemical analysis has to support her, absolutely has to, because she's run it up on huge magnifying equipment and comes back with the conclusion that there are certain characteristics of certain letters with certain ribbons, which are distinctly different

And she said it visually with a magnifying glass, they are, on contemporaneous documents from January and last June.

And that the Peter Beard memo contains the same impressions as the January documents, not last June.

Now, the guy we had in this morning starts out with the knowledge that she says, yeah, and he understands he's trying to prove that.

So...

We just have to sweat it out over the weekend.

The unfortunate thing was ever getting the Bureau in.

And although the reason we did it... Well, the reason we did it was that we knew eventually when Mrs. Teitel had her press conference on Monday, which was all laid out... Sure, the committee would say the Bureau verified it or not.

So we decided to do it ourselves and protect it.

President Biden's present is to release, if we get it,

the affidavit of the secretary who was Peter Beard's secretary last June, who has consistently held to the position, I know somebody has gotten to, has consistently held to the position that yes, she remembers typing a memo.

The first paragraph seems to be the same one, but the rest of it's different.

That the names of Nixon, Mitchell, and others never were in that memo that she typed.

because she happens to be a Democrat, and if that statement had been in there about our commitment is going a long way to a successful conclusion in the antitrust case, she said she would have been so shocked that she would have remembered that for the rest of her life.

And she said it wasn't in what she said.

Precisely the De Beard story.

The two are absolutely... De Beard says that she had been a memo, but not with our names mentioned.

Right.

Now, that's not inconsistent with her going back in January, doctoring her own original memorandum, and leaking it to Jack Anderson, which is how I think it got out.

Who didn't type it?

Did she type it?

No.

Well... Do you think... No, that's another point that's very interesting.

She swears she doesn't type.

Mrs. Teitel has examined documents that Dita has typed and says she's a superb typist, an excellent typist, a very proficient typist.

Also, it turns out that on January 22nd, On January 22nd, Vita Beard went into her office from 7 to 9 at night.

Saturday night.

She'd never gone in on a weekend before.

They have an alarm system.

She took her secretary with her, her present secretary, to break the alarm system in order for her to get into the office.

Her present secretary denies that she ever went with her.

Peter Beard told our operative on Wednesday, who was out there, that she never went into the office.

And when he came back the next day and said, look, Mrs.

Beard, we have the evidence.

She said, oh, yes.

I remember now, there was a friend of mine from out of town who was here, and he needed to use my typewriter.

Because he's writing a book, and the typeface on mine is the same as the typeface on his.

Totally implausible.

And that's why I went in and we sat there for two hours.

He typed and I read a novel.

Now, Bia Beard hasn't read a novel in ten years.

She's at 7 o'clock on any Saturday night.

She's drunk.

That's when she went in and did it.

Now, Mrs. Teitel said that the typeface on the samples they have of January 25th, they don't have it on January 27th.

January 25th, are identical in all respects to the Dieter Beard memo.

So, except for this one wrinkle with the Bureau, this is how I'm sure the thing has happened.

The thing with the Bureau is very hard to explain, except for the unreliability of chemical analysis.

Chemical analysis, they say, takes it and shoots it.

It's a peculiar chemical analysis.

What they do is they take a

They take a letter off the page, and they dissolve it, and they determine the amount of dye in it, and then they compare it with the amount of dye in types that were done at different times.

And the expert this morning says that the dye test is very unreliable because the manufacturer can never control the amount of dye going into his ribbons as he's manufacturing them.

He can't maintain that type of tolerance.

So it may be that the Bureau test is not a good test.

At least... Well, at least you could say we can't tell.

The Bureau has all they have to say we can't tell.

The fellow we had there this morning, who's Marty's deputy and internal security justice, says he doesn't believe they could possibly tell by that test.

He headed the Bureau's section before.

The trouble is he's on the outskirts of the... Coming down to the...

Well, what we'll do is we'll put out two other affidavits Monday.

The affidavit of the gal in Canada.

And she is being interrogated right now.

By what American?

By the NHL people, the private investigators.

This morning's New York Daily News contained an article saying that private investigators were on their way to Canada to investigate and interrogate this girl.

God knows how that got out.

Because only three people know it.

Four, the most.

Well, we have had Secret Service on our phones all week just because we're concerned about Anderson.

I mean, Anderson is an unscrupulous son of a bitch, and he's got his whole life on the side.

I mean, he's...

Maybe somebody doesn't.

Maybe you've got no operatives in your office, Joe.

Nothing.

I don't think of mine, because I haven't dealt with any of my staff on this.

I've kept them all on me.

Did you have a chat?

Well, Secret Service checked and said no.

We had to do a complete look at that on Thursday for this very reason.

But we've done a number of things that haven't gotten out of the way, so I'm fairly secure that it's not going to happen.

Well, the only thing, the only concern is maybe somebody's gotten to it first.

Maybe that's how they know that the people are on the way.

I wouldn't think so.

Okay.

Assume we get that statement.

That goes Monday, along with an affidavit of Bill Merriam, to whom the memo was addressed.

That he never saw it in his life.

And those two go out Monday, which do corroborate Peter Beard.

Now, the committee really has a problem, because...

It was Kennedy, yesterday, who caused the committee not to go out Monday to interrogate Dieter Berg.

And I think Kennedy found out that her testimony was going to be damaging to their case.

And that he decided to play the rest of the string of witnesses before they got to Dieter Berg.

Oh, yes, you know.

Right.

Exactly right.

Hoping that we would be so smeared underneath them.

Busting this out was a good idea.

Because you had to do something.

And I'll be on the other side of the way.

Well, we were in a position yesterday morning where Eastland and Rusker told us that the committee goes, and that was at 11 o'clock yesterday morning.

We knew through my source what Peter Bigg was going to testify to.

The committee didn't.

We didn't tell anybody, obviously.

Then you got... At 12 o'clock, Kennedy went onto the floor and talked to Mansfield, and Mansfield reversed himself on the unanimous consent agreement that there would not be a vote on Monday.

No, for Kennedy's purposes.

For Kennedy's purposes.

So why was Kennedy sawing and didn't want the committee to go out there?

I think he knew that Peter Baird's testimony might...

do with the case, and that she might put on an emotional scene.

Now, Kennedy's... What about the... What about Ervin was saying that Tunney was reacting in a curious way.

Tunney was sort of backing off a bit.

Well, they're scared.

Tunney and Kennedy were overheard Thursday night saying...

If we don't get the documents by tomorrow, we're dead.

Well, we think what they're talking about are, they know there are ITT files that are very damaging.

They've been trying like hell to get them.

Oh, yeah, we know.

In ITT's hands.

Well, the SEC has subpoenaed them.

The SEC has subpoenaed them.

And Kennedy is applying to the SEC

through the staff.

But the minute those documents arrive, they'll be fed to him.

And... What are the bad productions damaging the file?

Well, the damage...

In this case?

Yes.

Memorandum.

How the hell could they be?

Memorandum to the file by Janine and others.

About what conversations with Mitchell?

Well, no, not with Mitchell.

Conversations with Peterson, Conley, Ehrlichman, me,

that these fellows are trying to help us in effect.

That's the worst part of it.

I mean, they're not dead.

Oh, no, no.

No, they're not dead.

I just think that it's a miracle that Janine, of course, one of the things I just think, you know,

Flanagan's always here and he gets me to drop by these little things at Blair House and these things he has in the cabin.

I decided that the first of this year, never to do any more.

Absolutely.

Do you realize that Virginia is one of those?

I'd have been in there.

He undoubtedly would have mentioned the damn case tonight.

He said, well, where's the connection?

Do you realize that?

Well, the case was settled this year.

Well, whenever it was.

I mean, last year.

I haven't done one for a whole year.

I mean, this calendar year.

Last year, after the 1970 election.

That's right.

I haven't done a business group.

I've refused to go to them.

I've had dinners, but I've never consulted them because I don't know what these people are up to.

Oh, hell, Janine.

Yeah, sure.

Janine came in here.

If he ever had to testify that he talked to you about this, it'd be horrible.

Right now, there ain't a wind in the wind.

There's nothing wrong with talking to you about it.

Really, there's a mess.

You can say anything.

I'll say it loudly.

I never talked to you about this.

I thought it was Steve who was having fun with a specific case.

No, never.

I would see everybody talk to you when I, uh...

I called my addition to get off his ass and get the name.

Get the Justice Department in line with my philosophy, which is, Ignis is not enough reason for an antitrust.

That's all what he said.

It isn't.

It's not.

It isn't.

It was a dumb case that we brought up.

It was not the law.

I'm all that surprised you got that much of a great set-up.

Many so, well, they just wanted to get rid of it.

Many so held hearings on this for six months and concluded that

There was no legal way to get at McLaren's.

And the predecessor of McLaren concluded that bigness was not an issue.

McLaren's still going on.

Tomorrow.

Yes, sir.

He's being very well briefed.

He's a decent man.

Total believer in what he tried to do.

Oh, yes.

And totally honest.

He knows damn well that, frankly, he didn't have to do anything.

It was honest.

He was honest.

That's where he had a lousy case.

He will fight this one.

I mean, for a city judge to want to face a nation is pretty unusual.

I don't think they've ever had one.

They haven't had one in a hell of a long time.

And he didn't bat an eye.

He said, hey, he'll do anything we ask him to do.

He just, he'd rather play.

Our other strategy here is once we have done all we can this week, Scott and Ruskin have decided, and I think Eastland is in,

accord with this, that they will just take it.

He played in both, what?

And we have a problem.

The first thing you said to me, I...

Couldn't agree with more if it did not do this in the committee, but do it in public.

And we had the hotel right to vote, really.

And don't let anybody tell you it was wrong.

You'll have some of the press now squealing about not going through the committee and the rest.

Chuck, the best thing you've done up to date was to blow the Nina Beard thing down.

You had to force the hand.

First, you let it out.

Second, if you got it before the committee, the man killed her.

Right.

But you see what they've done, Mr. President.

They were going to put her off for weeks.

And by putting this statement out, they're now forced to go out there.

And this morning's radio said that they're reconsidering and they go out on Wednesday, which from our standpoint is fine, because she's in very good condition to stick to one story.

It's a good story, and it just fortifies yesterday.

She's a salty girl, you know.

Oh, and it's tough.

And she'll collapse at the right time.

What about the... Are they going to call the game, Gerald?

Well, we're trying like hell to get them to.

And we'll put her under oath.

And Kennedy and Teddy are fighting it like titans.

Oh, my God.

We can lie.

Why are they fighting it?

Well, I think they, they, uh, what they're saying is that we've already had it, so we don't need it.

I have the same.

No, that's not what I mean.

Do you mind if I say something first of all?

The capital that we've got ahead is findings from the Justice Department, of course, have one desire, and that is to find the capital.

And we want to get crime to be examined, but we want to turn public opinion around.

And the boys at Justice do not want press conferences.

They want to put before the committee now.

I overruled them yesterday and just ran through the whole thing at the end of the hour.

Oh, no, no.

We have to play this game.

No, we did not want to do it.

Definitely not.

He knows what will happen.

What will happen is that they will get an emotional denial from this girl.

She's sully as hell.

She will say this is a goddamn smear.

dirtiest politics I've ever seen anywhere.

She doesn't care at this point.

And you people are discrediting decent people, and it's horrible, and this whole thing is a fraud.

And I'm steering on the road that's a fraud.

And then when they start getting into questioning, she'll pass out.

And that'll make one hell of an emotional scene.

Here's Teddy Kennedy.

He doesn't want to risk a woman dying.

Oh, gee.

Ha, ha, ha.

He's scared to death of it.

So I think you may find that they'll keep thinking.

We, conceivably, if our boy works on Monday, they may decide they've had enough of it.

You know what's in those files?

Well, let's... Those files.

Yep.

Right.

Peterson, sir.

Conley, sir.

The only damaging one.

Peterson's got the most damaging one.

All right.

What do you say?

Well, after a meeting with him, they said that Peterson understood that it was essential for us to get a delay in the filing of the complaints in the case.

That's the only place that we've got a problem.

In order to give us time to do certain things.

Well,

It was a balance of payments issue because they're a big, huge, multinational corporation.

You know, very legitimate.

Oh, he was, Peterson was absolutely right, but it looked bad.

And the timing of those numbers is rather bad.

On top of which, Felix Roy, who was a key figure in this thing, was the trustee of Peterson's account, which turned out to be not such a boring trust after all.

You mean Peterson had that TV stock?

Well, no.

No, he was found out, but Royland, who was the key director of IT&T, was also the trustee for Peterson.

And I'm sure they'd love to open that one.

Nothing wrong.

Purely.

It's strictly coincidence.

I'm sure Pete never even knew it.

Oh, God.

You know what's so asinine is that somebody who's made money on the outside...

You know, it's too easy to make it honestly.

You don't have to come in here and... Well, I... That is one of the most frustrating aspects of government, that... Well, the poor are a decent man.

It's a totally double standard.

I don't know if you've got mine.

I've told all of them about it.

I've told them I want them to try the cameras.

We've got to get somebody to run a call or a editorial pointing out the double standard regarding the committee investigations that I've investigated.

And it's just true of the party and all of us.

It's been a long day.

should have standards of procedure, which are the same as the courts.

This was the case when we were investigating the charge of subversive activities.

And we got out of there, and I had my investigation to my son, who was a procedure that I did for the president, and it required, because I don't know, they weren't against how we were investigating, they were in for one year.

That's right.

Now, this case proves it.

Here we have business and the President of the United States under attack, and not one editorial or a column on the right or the left has been written.

What about the procedures?

Now, why can't somebody write that very simple double standard?

There have been a couple, Mr. President.

I saw one just yesterday.

That's what I'll get around to.

and I decided to circulate it because it was so damn good.

I can't remember what paper it was.

Well, it was one.

I haven't really...

I've had one of my fellows studying all the press on this, and he told me it's been largely negative, but he pulled out a couple of them.

One on this point, that the committee was abusing the process.

And, you know, an interesting thing about it is that it is not, in my opinion, I think you're hearing about this, it's not in some way...

That's true.

Harris said that this morning.

Dr. Harris this morning invited me.

Yes, sir.

And he's in the field now with a huge survey.

Yes, sir.

Yes, that's coming out next week.

A week from Monday will be the trial.

Which is 4735.

I guess it's been since last September.

Did you notice, did you notice, what's the number you were looking for?

48-35, almost the same.

What about the others?

58-22 over Lindsay, 53-28 over McEwen.

Now this, of course, only caught the tail end.

His tail end of his bull car, ITT, only one weekend.

ITT, he was in the field that whole weekend, right?

He started a price every Sunday.

That's right.

Well, that's right.

He was through with a deal on Monday.

He caught four days.

It was big, those four days.

Very big.

It was the chart.

That's when they were running seven or eight minutes.

You asked me to do that analysis of coverage.

That's appalling.

But that's when they were running seven or eight minutes.

We have a patent for running that coverage.

It was so simple in the coverage we did in China.

Well, if it's a hoax, if we could build that line, then you'd really get them for playing night after night.

But do you realize that all the press

but they have a vested interest in proving that this case can stand up.

I imagine the press must be worried that they're not.

Do you think this thing worries the press?

Oh, hell yes.

I mean, you read the various comments that are trying to say the White House is behind the counterattack.

It was one of the posts this morning.

They're desperate to find some means that scare us off.

And yesterday, some of the volunteers said, well, let's stay out of this thing now.

And I said, come on.

That's what they're trying to get us to do.

Yeah.

We have every right to defend this.

His view is not to stay out of it.

But his view is not to get the president involved.

Oh, I agree with that completely.

Keep it away from the president.

Oh, sure.

But then you have to realize how many white-out people are involved.

Ziegler doesn't know any of the facts, because I would refuse to tell him he's asking, and I don't want him to know, frankly.

I mean, I don't think there's any pressure on him.

Plus the fact that the minute you tell Ron stuff like that, he gets defensive in his briefings, and I don't want him to be defensive in his briefings.

I told him yesterday, if you're asking if the White House is involved, I should suggest to these reporters that they go track down that photograph that Jack Anderson signed to the source of the White House papers.

Who writes?

Well, it ain't a joke.

Jack Anderson has no sense of humor.

And he said in his affidavit that he'd never met this waiter, that he was just stopping by as a friendly gesture to his secretary who knew him well.

And he writes in big type to the source of the White House papers, Jack Hanson, this waiter who's been there 35 years, who's befriended many high government officials.

Everybody knows it's at least a legitimate inquiry.

If the press had any interest at all, they'd go after it.

They'd certainly do some interviews.

Why did he sign it this way?

Not one of them has asked.

No.

No, in this case, they won't.

But the impact in the country, Mr. President, Harris' view is that they haven't touched it, because it hasn't... To refuse?

Well, no, they haven't established anything.

It's politicians charging them against politicians, and people are used to that.

It's also focused on this woman who's in the hospital, and...

There isn't, except for the brief thing with Biden, there isn't anybody in the White House or in the government that they've really, day in and day out, zeroed in on.

It's been all, did IT&T do this?

Did the corporate records, were they shredded?

Did we do $100,000?

Well, yeah, but people are used to large amounts of campaign contributions being made, and they expect it, and they think that's what's happening.

And that's not happening.

Is Jackson refused to disclose his contributors?

You know what?

Sure.

He's got a hell of a lot of the same people that contributed to us.

He's got, I'll bet he's got labor unions in my house, eyeballs.

He's got about 50,000 from Henry Ford.

Is he?

Yes, sir.

Henry Ford hit him very big, and then came in and gave us the same amount.

He's got it from a lot of people.

He can't, he can't disclose it.

He's just saying, he, he just can't.

Yeah, he just said, I'm not going to do it.

Oh, no.

Muskie was hurt.

I'm inclined to think, in view of that Gallup poll, that Muskie, which came out before, what you're saying, before the mansion, which should have been removed in the end, Muskie probably was hurt, Chuck.

The real blow to him was the damn crime.

Yeah, that was it.

You agree?

Yes, sir.

Salmon is the one who, I didn't,

Get that from Harrison, that Muskie is going out of sight.

Of course, I know his management observers said that Muskie has three-fourths of the, uh, and three-fourths of the state that it's all here, and it seems impossible for him to lose the nomination.

Okay.

That's crazy.

He's got 33 and a half delegates.

I know.

In other states, you see, he's got the Ohio crowd, he's got the Illinois crowd.

He's got to go and fight for that Ohio crowd.

He's got to play like hell for that Ohio crowd.

It's got to fight like Illinois to get the delegates, not to get the popularity.

How will the delegates win?

I believe it's a district selection and then statewide slates.

Oh, he does.

That's been his big fight.

The fight in Chicago is not musty in McGovern.

The fight is an uncommitted slate versus a McGovern slate.

That's the Cook County problem.

No, every state delegation is going to be fragmented.

Tuskegee got none in Georgia, for example.

Zero.

And he put a hell of a lot of effort into getting delegates there.

You've got the Texas sort of using a precinct convention system.

And I imagine Wallace is going to get a fair amount of that.

Every state has this year such a complicated system.

But there's no way that anybody can say that.

They can say that Musk is ahead three-quarters of the states, but I think that's old information.

But Harris is saying that he's going to print these, Charlie.

He's not going to print the approval.

No.

He's re-figured the approval.

He's done some re-analysis of it.

And it's only just where it was before.

But he's going to point out that the X to 5544

No, it's just, I think it was 54-45 or 55-44.

He's going to leave it alone.

Is that correct?

Is that right?

Yes, sir.

So it was not affected by the challenge?

Well, no, he's going to say that it's been riding at your highest level in two years, and it's saving it.

The trial means so.

Does he believe those trials?

No, he's absolutely convinced.

47-35, 48-35.

With everybody else, it's a total runaway.

He's done an interesting analysis, though, Mr. President.

The number of people, you know, he's got four categories.

The number of people who ratio is excellent as compared to pretty good, and the excellent and the pretty good make up the puzzle.

One up on this poll from 18 to 23, which means that

which is very high.

He had it last summer as low as 7%.

And 23% of the people say excellent.

That is the main effect of the China trip.

It really solidified our own people and got in among intelligent people with big deception.

What he said is that what it really did for you was to intensify your support.

He said that 23% of the people say excellent.

That's a hard base that you have to work with.

You're just not going to turn those people off.

I mean, that's

That's very, very solid, and the highest you've had in that category.

The pretty goods went down, and the only fairs stayed the same.

They went up a little bit, and the poor declined.

So that it's a, across the spectrum, it's an intensifying of support.

That's what I thought it would show.

Yeah.

Also, there was a little upshift in the personal confidence factor, not big.

Not as big as he thought.

Well, yes, it was.

But the negatives was 56% negative before, and it's now 51%.

So it was a five-point drop.

That's significant.

On the positive side, it went up from 33% to 35%.

He expected that to be better.

That's the one area that, on his poll, and I think it's partially the way he asked the question, we've just never been able to move that one very much.

The others will roll over the line.

Well, that's right.

There's a question.

That's the institutional problem today.

Cameron had a fascinating...

I called him after your busing speech Thursday night, and we talked at very great length about that, but then we got into a little bit of politics, and Cameron said that in all the time he's been...

He thinks your speech was superb Thursday night.

which is probably tell us.

And I said, and now the speech, everybody's heard that, and the next bag comes later, and we'll turn the next bag to him.

We got exactly what you would expect in the liberal symposium.

The Southerners who don't understand that we can reopen cases symposium, but you can turn them in a period of time.

You don't want them outrooting too hard for us right now.

We don't need it there.

I frankly think, Mr. President, you get it exactly right.

And I

We're working like hell right now.

We've got editors in the border states and the south.

But that'll help very big.

And what we're also doing is calling community leaders and saying, look, we've solved you.

This will solve your problem.

Get behind it.

And that'll help because that'll also help us.

We have to do a better job.

They've got to vote on this thing.

They're going to vote on this, Mark.

Oh, yeah.

They're going to vote for it.

I should agree.

Yes, I do.

And I think Mussie's going to vote against it.

I'm just excited to hear that.

I'm going to vote against it.

Can't you?

Yeah.

I'm free to have that hell of a vote.

Well, I'm free to.

I think you'll vote for it.

No, I think you'll vote for it.

Gee.

Yeah.

See what he said, man?

See what he said yesterday?

Well, he said it.

Thank goodness the President finally put his finger up to the wind, decided the way public attitudes were doing, and has now decided to do something that some of us have been trying to do something about for a long time.

I got our photos this morning to write a speech, but they'll go after you with that.

That's just, I mean, that's even happier.

Do you think you were a scum to the primary?

Well, first of all, you're a scammer, Paul.

He doesn't really think Humphrey ought to be the candidate, but he was a classmate of his in college.

They're very close personal friends.

Dick Shannon wants to see you re-elected president.

I know in his heart he does, but he...

He'd like to see Humphrey, but he doesn't think he could get this idea.

No, I don't think he'd like to see Humphrey as president.

But he's got a personal friendship with him.

And he's a Democrat.

He's a Democrat, but he's not like most Democrats.

But he said something that I thought was fascinating, and I didn't draw him out of it.

He said the majority of the American people are no longer with the Democratic Party.

He said what the Democrats have is...

weight of the majority of the people.

But they don't stand for the majority of the people.

Honestly, Julie was saying to you, the Democrats are just out of step.

The people are sick with Democratic elitism.

And he told me Thursday night, by the way, he said, he said, he said, he told me Thursday night, he said,

Social plan.

How'd you like that?

Social plan.

That's the one I loved, and it was the first one Scanlon mentioned to me.

When I called Scanlon, I expected he was going to say to me, oh, you crapped the ball and you didn't go for a constitutional amendment.

Well, I couldn't do that at all.

And he said, well, he thinks...

He also doesn't do the job right now.

He thinks it's going to lead to a constitutional amendment.

He said that...

He said that this is like...

He said this is like...

He said it's like the income tax.

They tried to do it through the Congress, couldn't, and overwhelmingly went through with the Constitution.

Did he point out the fact about the social plan?

He jumped right on that phrase.

In my head, social plan is in quotes.

That was the beautiful phrase.

That's what the Democrats have listed both.

People of America are sick with elitism, and that's elitism.

And that's what must be misleading.

The majority of the American people just aren't in sympathy with that.

He also told me Thursday night, he said, Gallup is going to have a poll out this weekend.

So nobody here knew that.

It's obvious that it's kind of good ties into Gallup.

I'm going to start using it.

He said the Gallup poll, which will come out this weekend, is going to blow the Democratic Party apart because it puts Humphrey well ahead of Muskie, and it was taken before New Hampshire.

We got it.

Well, we didn't get it until after.

We got it as a result of Scammer.

Okay.

He said the president is very, very strong.

Don't pay any attention to Wisconsin.

He said the success in New Hampshire and Florida means there's no Republican contest.

Hence, more than even normal, there will be a crossover into the Democratic Party, particularly because there are no state contests in Wisconsin.

So there'll be a Halloween Democratic.

Yes, what he said is...

They're all the same.

There is no incentive for... You know that in 1960, for example, and 1968, the Democratic vote was bigger in Wisconsin than the Republican vote in the primary.

But we want to pull the ears.

I'm not sure we see this year.

Well, what he said is, and he's going to comment on this, and he will be out there doing the NBC analysis, and he'll comment...

He assured me that...

If you could get to him, those facts with regard to 1968, those little stories, yes, they don't count.

And in 1960, I'm confident you'll find that that's right.

Oh, I like it, yeah.

And I think in 68, that was also the case, even though we didn't have an opposition in 68.

Well, his thing is that the lack of any state countenance.

He said there isn't a single

Republican contest.

The only person who would win a vote in Franklin is someone who wants to get up, get out of the polls, and mark Nixon.

And he said that's, in Wisconsin, where there's a great tradition of crossing the river, where you don't affect your party affiliation, where there's a hot contest on the other side, he said it'll be a huge Democratic vote, very small vote.

Don't get all ridiculous.

Well, he said that in all of his time observing politics, 40 years, he said that

The fascinating story of 1968 never has a star been as bright, nor has it declined so fast as Muskie.

And he said, Muskie is not going to do well in Illinois.

Really?

Yeah.

He said that he's going to lose a third of the vote.

And I said, Dick, do you think that's big?

He said, yeah.

Oh.

Yeah.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Oh, no, I'll be able to pretend.

I'm just working here in the office today.

I'm not going to be able to.

Well, as a matter of fact, if you could, if you want to share with me lunch, six o'clock is fine.

That's not too late.

And then we might see a movie tonight.

Where are they, how are they going to go?

Is it necessary for me to come home and sleep in the car?

Yeah, because I'm working here today, so they don't know that.

They had a good time last night, too, didn't they?

Right.

Great.

All right, then.

Go ahead.

Well, he said I'm not the greatest predictor.

He said it must be.

It does not pull a dramatic turnaround.

He said once you get the momentum...

going the way it is.

He said, he's just gone.

He said, there's no way.

Humphrey is the strongest, now the strongest opponent, the strongest contender this year, and gained, and with momentum, and Muskie's got it in reverse.

He said, Muskie's money is drying up.

The next day, Muskie announced his staff was playing on tape.

Thick's intelligence is incredible.

He said, Muskie's out of money.

The very next day, Muskie announced it.

I don't know where he gets his stuff, but

The announcement is that it's going to be tough.

Untated.

Until Wisconsin.

No money.

Captain, you can't pay anything.

They all say it.

Well, you can feel loyalists that are working for nothing, but not for nothing.

Most of them can't afford it.

Well, Chris, the big point is that Muskie just has missed it.

How'd he miss it?

He missed the move of the people.

He, uh...

totally missed the sentiment of the people, which Scammon said, you caught.

And he said, you made the point twice in your speech about I'm speaking for the vast majority of the American people.

And he said, the president is.

And he said, those guys are.

And it's that simple.

And Dick said in the phone, he said, if you just get the economy up, he said, you have no problem.

Yeah, because Scammon raised that one.

I mean, he's right.

Well, he thinks you're right.

He basically is.

Because some people can't do anything about it.

There's a lot of reasons for what's going on.

Stein keeps bringing in revised figures every week.

And all the revised figures are now being revised up.

And now even he questions the accuracy of the retail sales figures, which I told him two weeks ago I felt were wrong.

And that's the only source.

I mean, my God, housing at $2.6 million a year is incredible.

Housing is a very strong job.

It keeps going up, and it's never been this up.

We said it too late.

People have money.

People have a lot of money.

Housing is a damn good thing.

The value is solid.

That's right.

Well, I'll tell you, it's quite a deal.

I am inclined to think, sir, that whatever the bull show, I think, may have been a smart move to be realized in terms of just respect for the offices over there.

I mean, they have the confidence factor.

That's right.

It's had an incredible impact.

I don't agree with Scanlon.

Scanlon's theory is that domestic issues control elections.

I just don't think he's right.

And I think that times are different, too, Mr. President.

Times change very rapidly, and people...

But our Moscow summit is going to be extremely, we want to play a bet on this, if we have any enormous problems, so that people are going to think that in terms of substance, it's going to be enormously important to create people.

Scanlon's theory is the Rousseau theory.

He says you go into Tennessee, and you tell them you're going to build them a dam.

And he said you go up to the Catholic educators, and you tell them you're going to put aid in brokial schools.

Well, that's what Humphrey's doing.

And Humphrey's doing it.

He said, I want everybody what they want to hear.

Yep.

It's the old style.

Of course, Harrison's the one, not Harrison.

It's a fascist.

He said, if you run against Humphrey, he said, you want to take him as the old politician.

The old politician.

It's a tired old slogan.

It's the past.

Which occurred with these Democrats.

Yep.

In the trial, he and Humphrey were assassinated.

Well, you're the wave of the future, China.

Bold, dramatic initiatives, and Humphrey is just an old foe.

I think they can.

I think Teddy's a hell of a lot weaker than...

If you could read those letters.

He couldn't be very good, but at least the guy's got a good emotional man.

He's a man.

Do you agree or not?

I absolutely agree.

And I don't agree with you on it.

Neither does Muskie.

Muskie's not an evil man.

No, Muskie's just a bland...

He's nothing.

Teddy Kennedy, I just cannot conceive him being present.

Whether he would be assassinated on the way... You read those answers.

People wrote, final replies.

Final.

Don't you ever write me another letter about this son of a bitch...

He's the worst influence in America.

He killed a girl.

I mean, what he does is he arouses such fierce passions of opposition.

And I think he knows it.

I think he wants to seize them and get away from Chappaquiddick.

Especially if these polls continue, if we keep this on that, I mean, you're running very hard for us to continue at this level, as you know.

We're going to continue.

You generally go up to the slot for a while, and then Moscow, then.

But you've got to remember that we just can't do a spectacular remount.

I don't think you need one.

We are going to have one after Moscow.

The Democrats will have their convention.

The thing we have to guard against as a president, and it's the toughest thing of all, is the kind of thing they're doing in IPT right now.

They are going to use the committee forums to smear and attack and get the headlines, and the media have a legitimate reason to carry it.

I mean, of course... And that's where they're going to... That's where they're just going to keep hitting us all year long.

There's no place else they can lay a glove on us.

And they know they're in terrible trouble.

I mean...

But coming back to that, do you think it did shape the press?

No.

Sir?

Oh, no.

They've now written a couple of articles saying he's the new White House hatchet man.

I'm delighted.

He's taking the heat instead of the...

The... Yeah, that's right.

Neiman Phillips.

Of course, he's tough as nails.

He just loves to give right back to them.

The interesting thing that we did yesterday, which was one of the cleverer moves we made, I think, was that we didn't let the Dita Beard thing go out early in the afternoon.

Ah, so they didn't have a chance to screw it up.

What they did, well, we notified the network four times.

which was the last possible moment that they could be notified and still get it on the networks.

And as a result, they went out.

They didn't have time to edit their tapes.

They filmed Scott reading the whole thing.

All three carried the entire text.

They didn't have time to edit it.

We knew it was so hot that if we waited until the last moment that they would go out and film it, we wouldn't have any time for processing.

Scally advices me.

Very good advice.

Yeah, they ran it back and just put it right on camera, as was.

I'm sure they regretted it.

On the 11 o'clock news, it was all clipped up.

When 40 million people watched it at 7 o'clock, the whole thing had run.

Oh, is there an umbrella in the stand?

Yes.

And I think she'll do all right when they go out there.

She'll be pretty persuasive.

Well, I've got the report in full of the man who spent some hours with her.

Cut her in the right frame of mind for this.

I've talked to her since by phone.

She's fighting that.

She wants her day in court.

She wants to vindicate herself.

She's had a terrible thing done to her.

She did, actually?

Oh, yeah.

Good.

With a pen.

And so you think she's broken off with the girl around her?

Now, I think what happened is that she thought this would be a one-day story, that somebody at IT&T would get fired for leaking her memo.

Because she could blame someone in the office, which she tried to do and failed.

And it would all blow over.

I don't think she ever saw this coming.

And now she feels paranoid that she's been made the victim of it all.

Also, she's basically on our side.

She's a reactionary.

Is she?

Yeah, she is.

She is just so loyal to the party.

That was a thing that my friend kept getting from her.

By God, what a terrible thing this is to the Republican Party.

I've been a Republican, and I worked for Nixon in 1952.

She goes on about all the years and all the money she's raised.

She now feels a vested interest in seeing her party first, and that's helpful.

And I don't think they can break it in.

Well, I know it'll happen.

If they start to break it in, she'll reach for oxygen.

Yeah, obviously.

Because he's told her to do that.

Yeah.

She knows.

The Secretary's empathy, of course, will also shake them up, because then they'll realize that there's a pattern here, and maybe

Hey, just maybe this is a thing.

Of course, if the Kuiper analysis does it, then you'll never get to be the group.

The Kuiper analysis probably took a long shot to do the damn FBI thing, but let's see.

Let's see what they can do.

Well, you know, what was so, so unfortunate was that after two hours of interrogating Mrs. Teitel, she was so firm in her opinion and so good that we felt then we were safe to get a corroborating analysis.

The cop can't get behind her.

Yeah, she doesn't.

Just like every... Yeah, that's the way the excuses are.

No, well, it was a bad call because we shouldn't have done it.

But we figured the committee would do it.

I think probably the committee would have done it.

They would have asked for it.

They changed their mind.

Yep.

Or they may write a typical FBI letter.

Their typical letter is so fudged that it doesn't say anything.

We are unable to say that it was written...

We can't categorically determine, because eye tests are not that accurate, but go on with a million caveats, which is what they always write.

And I think they now understand what they're trying to show, so we'll hope.

You should just think how the firecracker could break it.

It could, because it's such so reminiscent of history.

the typewriter broke the case that's right i was uh bouncing up and down yesterday i don't think she's been discredited publicly you know i don't think the public they

Most of the stuff about her has not been that dirty.

Drinks, yeah, heavy drinks, that's bad.

Yeah, he built her up.

Oh, God, he gave her a hell of a build.

That was another break we got when she put up the first statement.

The same night at 5 o'clock, just before Shore went on with this tough job.

My God, fine woman, most dedicated to it.

Most important thing in her life is her five children and how hard she's worked for them to support them.

And their father was, oh, God, it was a tear-jerker.

But I don't think she did.

The only thing that hurt her was the drinking.

I think that's gone out publicly that she's a drunk.

Speaking of drinking, we've got a little problem with our ambassador.

Now, do you see where Senator Church wants to go on relations committee hearings into his fitness now?

See, they're going to use this technique.

Anderson will throw these things up, and they'll go into committee hearings and play them up, and then the general press picks it up.

And they'll just use every possible opportunity this year to do that.

Maybe we ought to have a committee, and then we're going to open that up, call in some state department career people, and see whether they're homosexual.

I can tell you two degrees are.

I wouldn't be so sure.

I don't know.

Menopee would certainly see that one.

And you've got to face this, this drinking problem.

For Christ's sakes.

Russell Long.

We know they all got drinking problems for Christ's sakes.

So this guy went off on his way to Paris.

Too bad.

But he's drunk over there.

I've seen him.

I've never seen him drunk in the past.

He should have been drunk in the past.

Yeah.

I mean, if you want to get drunk and relax, that's one thing.

Never in public.

Yeah.

Terrible thing.

I have a rule on that.

This broke Christ Arnold's heart.

He always used to come to me.

there's several senators down there, Russell Long, you could call them, couldn't drink it, I don't know.

And I have never been to drink with a senator.

That's a good, that's a good, good point.

I give them a drink sometimes, but I'll sit there and drink with, you know, they know it's maybe some gluten or some damn thing, but they're never going to be able to go out and say I was drinking.

Because, you know, whatever you say to them, they say he was drunk when he said it.

That's one thing they're having a hell of a time.

They have a hell of a hard time with me, because then I think it kills the press, because they'd love to be able to say that I'm a traitor to the press and help.

You know, Johnson did.

That's never been a single opportunity for them.

Oh, that's the worst of all.

You can be damn sure that they'd play that back.

Well, that's the only thing they've got on Peter's, is booze.

The rest of it, she's a lobbyist.

So what?

Good mother, interested in her children, cares about her children.

Feels now that she's been put above, she can build some sympathy.

And she might die, Charlie.

And she might well, Mr. President.

Is she really that sad?

Oh, yeah.

She's got a punctured valve in her heart.

She's got advanced stages of arterial sclerosis, which is the booze.

I haven't had a report on that, but her doctor says that her arteries have hardened, and that affects her mind.

She isn't able to think clearly, and at times she lapses off into a loss of memory.

But she's very welcome to, which, of course, is another reason to get the damn thing out.

She's something that didn't go out there, and she's going to get pummeled or...

And you can be sure he's going to be careful.

Oh.

Well, I think this would...

I think he knows that would do him in.

I think even the collapsible would be harmful to him.

She calls for oxygen and the doctors rush her.

Rush oxygen, too.

Senators are standing there feeling awful ghoulish.

God.

We didn't want to hear it Tuesday.

Well, we're hoping that we won't hear anybody Tuesday.

We're hoping that we can stick to the line that until you interview Dieter Berg, why continue?

Because if indeed now, as he says it is a fake, he's got no basis to continue to hear.

And Scott and I still feel pretty strongly about this.

Eastland, I just don't know.

Eastland is all over the line.

One day you're convinced he's playing with us, and the next day you're convinced he's playing against us.

All right?

I have no confidence in what Eastland will do.

But if our boys really dig in and get mad, and they're mad.

They are mad.

They feel...

They believe her.

Of course, I've confided a little bit into Hugh Scott.

Just a little.

Not much.

Not a hell of a lot.

So he feels he's on to it, right?

Yep.

I've confided a little more to Marlo Cook and...

I haven't done it.

Instead of calling him, I wrote him a handwritten note.

I think it's much better.

I'll get him a phone when he's gone.

I'm going to talk about a lot of things.

I don't think I should be calling anybody about this case.

Oh, that's true.

I, uh, yeah.

I just, I'm just over here tomorrow.

Since you've been doing the brief, I'm going to be here.

I have a lot to worry about.

Many things.

All right.

That's better.

Huh?

That's better, because it's something he can show his grandchildren.

He'd rather have that than the book.

I don't write anything, you know, which makes it worth something, but I thought that was much better.

Yeah, I do.

I think that is better.

And he's a guy who would get, if he got your ear, he...

I'm here talking to her tomorrow, and you can say whatever it is.

I'm here, you know, working on social security and everything, and you're coming back to me.

That's very encouraging.

No, no, that's a good one.

Probably doesn't have it.

I'm sorry.

I really appreciate what you've done.

He's fallen, but he naturally wants to stay away from the agency ship.

He's the rest of the rest.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Well, I wish I could remember the scent.

You wish what?

I wish I could remember the scent of all that.

Oh, I wake up in the middle of the night.

I'm wishing I could get on that stuff behind that bench and go after it.

All right.

Yeah.

Anderson.

Anderson, sir.

Oh.

You know, we deserve, Mr. President, all the luck that the

We can get from any place we can get it.

And probably we get our just reward in heaven because we are so goddamn pure and honest.

And our fellow sat there that day that I was briefing him on Anderson.

And they said to Chuck, we have a rule of relevancy in this committee.

We have a rule of germaneness.

And I said, have you watched Eddie Kennedy and Tony?

Are they observant?

Well, now, Rusty said, well, now, we believe in the rules.

God almighty.

It's awful.

Our guys are just so gany.

It is wrong.

It is wrong, always, to attack the credibility of a witness.

In a court of law, you could do it, couldn't you?

Oh, absolutely.

You'd have them out of there nothing flat in a court.

He's slippery.

He's very, he's very clever, yeah.

Unless, Brigham is, Brigham is coming right along in his footsteps.

He's going to be, he's going to be great.

You know, I, as you know, I, I called old Albert Boggs.

You mentioned that.

What's that for?

After their attacks.

I understand Boggs is very lyrical about his, his mind-setting of what he's done.

Jerry Ford talked to them both to try to get them to speak out this week against Anderson.

He didn't.

They didn't, but he said they were very appreciative.

I didn't tell Jerry that he'd call them.

Did they tell Jerry?

Must have, because he said they were very, very pleased.

I just assumed it.

I guess he did.

They must have told him.

Neither one of them wanted to talk about it publicly.

No, I don't.

They know the Democratic Party didn't tell them.

It really is.

It really is a mess of the way they were working around this.

The money was precious.

Where did they get the money?

I don't know what the hell it was.

Why does Lindsey get 6% of the vote and the son of a bitch is doing great?

$300,000, 1% of the vote.

Well, but who in his right mind would give Jonathan anything in order to avoid some kind of payoff in New York or something like that?

Well, I think he's got dirty money.

You think so?

Yeah.

I've had a man trying to check it, but we haven't had a hell of a lot.

He covers it beautifully.

He has names of several thousand people, and I just think he tags 75 beside him, 50 beside one, and he gets under the $100 rule also.

but somewhere there's some big lumps going into that campaign.

Accident.

He's not able to race that.

You know, it's been a good fun race.

Rockefeller had a help in the first few times, yeah.

Well, let's let Lindsey keep on the race, though.

He'll start.

Well, Wisconsin is where a few are going to drop out.

Somebody's going to have to go out of Wisconsin.

You think so?

Yeah, I don't know if they can sustain it.

Hasbro up there now.

Yes, he is, but he's already announced that he will concentrate his campaign in California.

But he feels that that's the state that he will make his mark in.

So, in California, you know it's winter tape at all?

That's right.

He's not going to hurt himself.

But in California, for you, I think he'd get 25%.

No, and if he gets beaten badly in California, then he's got no constituency at all, because if he's going to get in any place, he's going to get a case.

Well, Buchanan and I were planning to make another go at them this week, but I just, I got so sunk into this thing, I couldn't.

Let it go, let them

going to screw around.

Well, I think we... And that's another way.

It's just as well to have a little interest in our primary.

Yeah, that's true, too.

Just a little interest to me.

It was good.

There was no way to report we got anything in Florida.

We kind of had no fashion down there, so we got something.

That's right.

187% didn't mean a goddamn thing.

I should get 95% of the public interest.

See my point?

Mm-hmm.

And you're correct.

The scam that the board was showing was very, very strong.

Of course, he said that publicly, but he said to me on the phone that it was a phenomenal show.

Phenomenal.

He thought if Ashford had any place where he would score, it would be in Florida, where there is a hell of a conservative element in the party.

You know, Ashford spent all of his time going around the state and spent money in the media talking about Buston.

Did he?

Oh, he was saying the Constitution will happen on Buston.

And yet the Republicans turned it up 87%.

Supporting you and 9% across the country.

Well, I certainly, even though we're forgetting some of our southerners that are saying we haven't gone far on this and that kind of thing, the mark on the busing has been made as a letting John Irving well realizes.

And the mark has been made due to the fact that we will be under a rather severe attack from the liberals.

Absolutely.

That's the key.

And everybody was upset last night at the

Television coverage that gave so much time to the Democrats.

That's fine.

They were all attacking you for being for busing.

They were doing exactly what Scanlon said that they were doing wrong.

Attacking you to be against busing.

Yeah, right.

That's fine.

Mort Allen called me up and he was all upset.

He said, my God, CBS just gave them eight minutes.

And I said, well, Mort, if they're saying what I think they're saying, leave mine for half an hour because they're running again.

President came out and staked out a position that is unequivocal.

He is opposed to busing.

And they want to get rid of it.

Oh, hell yes.

And it had a lot more impact.

Their credibility is being hurt by always being critical and negative.

You didn't do that in 1968.

No, I didn't.

I just can't think.

Wow.

Now, it's a big difference.

They can go too far in this business of criticizing everything.

They can.

Yes, sir.

Definitely.

But the more they want to come out and criticize your busing position as being an abrogation of the Constitution, I'm just delighted.

They're appealing to their elitists when they do that.

I mean, McGovern just, it's marvellous.

I'm delighted.

He should take that position.

That's where he has to go.

He has to.

He's stuck.

He said it's a

Bussing is, nonetheless, it may not be very desirable, but it's one of the tools that has to be used.

He's sticking to that line.

And I don't think he can change.

One thing that will hurt him is if he continues to appear to be waffling.

You know, I won't release my finances, and yes, I will release them.

What did they show?

I haven't seen them.

I don't think he... Matter of fact, I don't think they're out yet.

It should be hard to get a lot of people supporting us around here.

Well, because when he was the frontrunner in December, he looked so strong.

I'm sure a lot of money... Well, then we'll put a little on both horses.

Across the board.

We're going to be talking about our national contributions.

I'm not going to throw down that name.

It's not required by law.

Why should I?

I don't think you should.

Well, I don't think...

I think, first of all, that our position should be in touch with the committee.

We're not talking much of it.

And you're staying out of it?

The committee will comply with all.

No way to criticize that.

Very soon, we will be in some states where expenditures have to be disclosed.

Anyway, that's fine.

It'll come out.

In Hampshire and Florida, they did not have to be.

Our fellows wanted to put out in Hampshire and Florida, and I said, my God, don't do it.

And then if you start to press it, then he can't stick to that one consistent position.

I think on the economic side, Mr. President, I don't know whether you've talked to him or not, but he...

I don't agree with you on that one.

Well, a couple of times this week at the 15th meeting, he said,

And they're now steadily moving up.

We've got about eight months in a row, seven months, don't run it.

If we hold unemployment this month, just hold it, then we're in shape.

If it doesn't this month, then we know if it just holds at 5-7, we know we're doing very, very well.

And the next few months will tell us a hell of a lot on what will happen the rest of the year on the plane.

Thus far, the insured planes have continually declined, which has been the bellwether sign that we started getting in November.

So the only area we really worry about is the retail sales, and there are some huge discrepancies in the figures.

The monthly figures kind of tally with the weekly figures, and the private sewers kind of tally with the overall.

I just think we're going to find that that new system they put in in September of last year just isn't working right.

It isn't getting the right information.

Heard, said that a lot of economists are now saying that our figures aren't acting.

And if we find those are in error, then because that's the only lagging thing in the economy, the only thing that doesn't look up to what we expected when we predicted the GNP.

Our fellows have made fairly good use of the smear line this week.

They've been getting a little bit of it out.

It's just a goddamn axe curtain.

They scrapped a conspiracy, uh, well, it's a, uh...

It's censorship.

It's censored, yeah.

The press, frankly, is petrified of the thought that we might win.

That's what it is.

Yeah.

We've got a hell of a...

But we also are in a hell of a campaign.

That's why we have our book.

Jim Keele's a little healthy, too.

That's what we're getting around.

Plus the monitoring system that we're setting up.

Dick Sage is setting up now.

where they're going to be watching the broadcasts, and they have a natives raider type operation here.

Good.

Taking lawsuits into the FCC, charging them fairness.

We will be in control of it.

Using the Simpson tapes at Vanderbilt.

That couldn't have been different.

It will be set up around the first of May, and we'll be in touch with them.

And that may have just shaken up a little bit.

We should move on, basically.

Well, I haven't.

It's a hell of a speech.

It needs more polish and agonizing.

Michael, I think we should do it after we know precisely how far we're going to get with our attack, if it's a hoax.

Yes, they are.

And he's got it in here, just agonized in a way that just devastates.

by D&D, conferring a vigilance before he tested it.

If it was an honest error, it was a stand-up, unfortunately.

but that the Marion name had been up awful, and that he asked someone who it was, and he said Mr. Marty, and he thought they said Marion.

Probably the target was made by the state.

Yeah, I think so.

I think that the target was the target.

No, he's got to be the target.

That's not his job to be.

How about UBI?

Oh, yeah, they personally wrote a letter of apology that was refused, and they put that out to the press.

They're all saying it was a...

I would imagine...

And he said, they asked him a question about the contribution to the Republican Party.

And he said, now, wait a minute.

He said, wait a minute.

I've been listening to that.

I've been listening to you fellas say that.

He said, that contribution was made to civic interest in San Diego, and it was a sound business investment.

And one of the reporters started to cut him off for asking another question.

He said, wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

I'm telling you that was a sound business investment.

That was not.

He couldn't not carry that.

He was so mad when he was, when the reporter tried to cut it, he said, now you wait a minute.

He's a very forceful fellow.

I think he did well.

I think he was a plus.

And, uh, you're right, though.

You've got to, I suppose, there be hope to get the memorandum from IT&T.

New revelation.

Yeah, then you see, what they have then, if they do, is not just eat a deer, it's memoranda for a while.

They've got other evidence.

Right now, they've got nothing except that.

And if they feel that we're beginning to undercut that, then they're desperate to get their hands on any other piece of paper.

And those memoranda now are in the hands of the SEC.

They're under subpoena to the SEC, but they haven't been delivered.

We've already gotten two weeks, and I was going to talk to Casey about the sanctity of the SEC files.

I think we're selling.

The lawyer was supposed to get in yesterday, and he got sick.

So we're trying to buy enough time to first discredit the beer general and then hope the campaign is still going.

If you want to get coin deems out of there, then they have to have a new reason to open that inquiry.

In other words, if those acumen came out two weeks from now, they'll make a new state pursuer, but they won't make this kind of a hearing.

And we, today, have no idea what it is.

Well, we've learned one thing, that we've got to crack him right out of the box the next time.

If we get another one of these, we've just got to land on him.

And if this one is a hoax, we just charge hoax the next time before he ever

gets his licks in.

That's why I think this one is, that's why I've spent so much effort on this, because if we could establish a hope, if it's him in the future, he can't stay here.

I didn't want to get caught by somebody, but I wanted to come in and see this.

Yeah, he's a little wet.

He's very, very hot in here.

Out.

Out of the boat.

And then, he's rubbed off.

See you after.

Yes!

Oh, thanks.

How are you?

Nice to see you.

Nice to meet you.

Nice to see you.

Come on, let's bounce back and tell him.

Oh, really?

Oh, look at this one.

Oh, look at that.

Isn't this gorgeous?

Oh, look at this.

Isn't this gorgeous?

But isn't that beauty?

Oh, I gave her no one for her age.

That was the first thing.

Oh, this is a star.

That's very good.

He showed it to my husband when he was living there, and we had had ten different sketches made before our food event.

And then he said, what is this?

You know, it's just absolutely handsome.

But he had two beds.

You know, they made all these different designs, and he didn't like them.

He really doesn't like them.

I tell him he shouldn't do a designer first.

Do they?

He really does.

And he just catches every single one of them right.

Hi.

Did he have a birthday?

Yeah.

He's going to have all the things.

Do you know, Mr. Brownsburg showed us this when we were there in London, and we were off there, and she had had 10 different successes.

No.

Oh, no, he said they didn't.

But they wanted it.

You know, can you have the best painting of anybody?

Oh, I know.

That's one of those rare things.

There's one of them coming to the world.

No.

Daddy, your dog is going to serve you.

Yeah.

I know.

He was dirtying up the rug, so I wrote it down for him.

Where did he go, down in the pool?

Listen, now, and I suggest that you take a walk down and look at all the pictures that he has.

Another thing you might enjoy if you manage to go over to the EOB, because there's some other pictures of him.

The big thing right now, if you want to see them, or if you haven't seen them,

No, not recently.

You mean you changed him?

I think there's some news.

Okay, we're leaving.

Yeah, I know.

I will be.

Just go over.

The door's open.

Just go over.

Yeah, okay.

See you later.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

Yeah, okay.

Well, thanks for everything.

The difficulty with all this is that these Democrats, and I believe, of course, that they're wallowing around all this stuff.

And, of course, we're in the middle of a busing thing that took a week out of my life.

But it was worth it.

That price statement, he did a beautiful statement.

I mean, it's a balanced mind.

Even your speech?

No, I did the speech.

The speech was excellent.

The speech was something that was really good.

The price statement is 15,000 words.

For people that are really interested in a fair thing, we cover everything, base it in there, and it's written.

Good style.

Let it rise.

I think it's certain.

There's no way to win on it.

It's a loser issue in terms of the voter restraints.

There's no question about it.

You can't just say to the blacks, look, you're going to stay.

You're going to stay in black areas.

Now, they are.

But you can't say that to them.

Well, you hit the right note, Mr. President.

I think it's untellable for the Bush.

Even if it doesn't help us, it hurts the other side.

Oh, God.

All right.

You know, when you look at the Paris and another breakdown, which is fascinating, I thought, among those who oppose Muskie, you leave Muskie 49 to 27.

That says something very interesting in terms of

and in addition, Humphries.

Thank you.

What it says is that their constituency is made up very heavily of pro-busing people.

And they know that they can't get off that wicket.

And yet the American public, by 73 to 20, in Harris's poll, are opposed to busing, school busing, at any count.

If you just took out the people who were for it, the election would be two to one.

So that says that all the pro-busting constituency, they simply have to have it.

They can't reverse themselves on that issue.

No, they've got to have it.

They're stuck with it.

I always thought that was a...

He broke the figures down that way just to make that point that they're stuck with it.

All right.

Well...

One thing you went up in dramatically in Harris' poll was the public reaction to your TV speeches and press conferences.

It was 45-51 negative.

It is now 49-45 positive, which is quite a switch.

That's China.

No, but they're referring to TV and press conferences.

That's China.

People really, that obviously had an impact.

You know that positive and negative is still not a very good index in a way.

It is in one way or another.

But when you say only fair, a lot of that's really positive.

Now, the average person's not only fair.

Depends on the part of the country.

Up in Maine, that's a hell of a country.

Yeah, but what I mean is a lot of people just don't... Well, it's the reason that his positive and negative has never kept...

any kind of relationship to the trial heat because a lot of people oh yeah a lot of people will say only fair and we'll then we'll then pick you over a lot of people will say you're doing pretty good but they're democrats and they'll go back the other way so those the two are not related he does make one point harris is very very concerned over the lack of public confidence in the price and wage board

Yeah, I know.

He thinks we're...

In fact, he thinks it's holding down our whole attitudes on public confidence and our handling of the economy.

He said if it went for that, you'd be...

They don't think it's working.

They don't think it's working?

Well, because prices go up.

On the other hand, Grayson made a tough statement today.

The long, short thing was a tough one.

I hated to do it, but, you know, what we're doing, we're buying trouble with labor.

Schultz called me this morning and asked to sit me on it.

He said we've got a hell of a problem.

And he wants me to help him.

Well, we have to... We won't have trouble with Fitzsimmons.

We're all right.

Fitz... Well, that's the damn payboard screws, the team screws.

I don't care.

I don't think so.

This has got to be with us solidly.

He came in the same week before last, and he outlined his plan.

And one by which his people are passing the word.

George Bell went out to Ohio, and he was the business agent for one of the eastern Ohio unions.

To a man, the Teamsters came up to him afterwards and said, there is a Teamster in the United States who will not vote for Richard Nixon.

That word's gone all through that organization.

We couldn't signal to that one.

Oh, yeah.

And the heat we got on that was worth a day.

Well, it was zero.

We got some.

Oh, well, I mean, very, very little.

A few editorials here and there.

Some mail.

A few hundred letters.

And it's forgotten.

And I'm not sure that the big public outcry that a lot of people thought we would get just wasn't there.

Where we go to on that pricing, it's just tough, Chuck.

It just can't work.

They will not work.

They never have.

One of the reasons that I was not too keen on it at the time, I said, well, it would be a good flip, but I said, well, what's going to be when the damn thing breaks down?

See, it shows all the same way.

I think that's going to be a problem, period.

The posture that we were in, Mr. President, when you did it, was that the train was going over the cliff.

You had to do it when you did it.

And it was the beginning, August 15th, was the beginning of the turnaround in all polls.

And we've sustained it ever since.

And we can continue to sustain it.

The only thing that we have to do, and I've talked to Schultz and I've talked to Conley about this, they

I think they agree with me that they don't feel quite as strong at the key points of the next couple of months.

I think you've got to jawbone your own apparatus a couple of times.

And you've got to get a little bit angry once or twice at the price and weight points.

And that's all it will take for the public to say, well, no, the President's on our side.

I mean, that's independent machinery.

And if they had, for example, had they approved the

Longshore, I had recommended to Schultz that he commentate on it.

The longshore was a good move.

Oh, that's true.

I think he had to do it.

They had no choice.

They had to do that.

He would have just destroyed confidence in the machinery.

But we need to do a little job of it.

The food prices, the CPI may go wild this week, you know, the food prices.

sign is predicting a terrible CPI figure.

And it's all food prices.

It comes out Wednesday.

It could be one of the biggest ones ever.

When does it come out?

Wednesday.

We've been thinking of ways to override it on Wednesday.

We don't know what it is yet, Pete.

Earth always predicts it on the bad side and comes out of it too.

The way to do it, well, you can't separate out the food prices, but the food price then is also going to return.

If it does, it is going to continue to go.

No.

It won't continue.

And once that one's out of the way, it is.

Once that one stabilizes, the others are only fine.

The others are doing beautiful.

So we just have to kind of weather that.

Maybe if we do a little more like this, we'll want to do it more visibly.

That was good, yes.

Yes, one seal, maybe.

CPR.

We'll have the McElroy report that day.

We'll have the marijuana commission.

I think we need to knock down the population commission, knock down the marijuana commission.

That's the elitist again.

That's what Scammon is saying.

People just don't feel like it.

God, if that was ever approved anywhere in Florida, I mean, it's all well and good to say Florida's the southern state, but anybody in a crowded field who gets 42%, better take a good hard look at the issues he's using, because let's say his border's safe, not southern.

It's in the Sunshine Quarter.

It's not like the nation as a whole, but it isn't that much different either.

My plan probably is to go to the office rather than the television.

Because I don't think I should go on that television.

A week after I've been on it.

And I'm always a good person.

I don't want to see the television too high.

I've got to fight to bring it down.

I've got to order everybody to do it.

I've told the Coastal Living Council that, by God, they're going to reach our targets.

And we'll take whatever steps are needed to see that they did.

We can't tolerate this continued rise.

This should be the last bang of the CPI going up, because that means the bulge that we expected for three months, and then I think there's a sign to read it next month.

In fact, if it's really bad this month, it could decline next month, because you pick up a big increase in one month, and a lot of things are going to compensate down with the next month.

In other words, it's an inordinate increase, he believes.

It will be an inordinate increase.

If it is, you may actually

Take it all in one month, and then get a few helpful breaks in the next few months.

You've got to remember, you can't live and die with a lump in your face.

We've been doing that to you too much.

Yeah, they don't mean no harm.

And people hear it, and it doesn't help us or hurt us all that much.

Either way, it's a funny thing.

No, it's a human as a person.

That's right.

And the other aspect, the only negative aspect of this is that the media just

It gives them that excuse, I don't think, to ever give them an opportunity.

I think that Wednesday might be a day that will, if they go out Wednesday.

I told Bob ten days ago that I did not think you should have a press conference, that the safety IDP case was in.

I think now you can't very well.

is that I'm not going to comment on it.

I'm going to follow up.

I'll say, what about the ITT investigation?

I'll say that's under the...

I said, this is a hearing by a subcommittee on the confirmation of the Attorney General of the United States.

I have confidence in my inquiry.

My confidence is not that it should.

I believe it will be.

It should be proved.

And I will comment on the hearing following the process.

I know nothing that would in any way affect my coverage.

Nothing in these hearings is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is,

appeared before the committee and stated... What he said is the truth.

What he said is the truth, and I would refer you to that statement, period.

I want to...

I want to stay out of the...

If I open up for any questions, if I start commenting even on positive things that I think that can appear as justifying... No, no.

You see, if I get into that, I'm just not going to say, well, what do you think?

No.

It'd be one way or the other.

No, but it may be an area that you want to think about in relying on what Mitchell said.

Mitchell's statement and testimony was excellent.

He said, hell, we didn't have anything.

You know, he hit our points just beautifully.

Well, I could say that.

He stated the position.

He stated the facts.

When he stated it was the truth, beyond that, I'm not going to comment on it.

The other stuff the questioner has is a planning question, which is,

which would be one question once again uh your assistant mr clark has been involved in unexplained has had an unexplained involvement well we

We were going to, Mr. President, have them make a statement voluntarily.

And then every member of the committee that we've been dealing with said, if you do that, it isn't going to satisfy them.

And all you're going to do is re-raise the issue, and it's now quieted down, so stay away from it.

And Ervin feels so strongly about it that he will not vote for Kleinbein if Kleinbein exerts executive privilege, or the President does on behalf of Kleinbein.

And if you, if, they said if you send a voluntary statement in, that's better for you.

So all it will do is keep the issue going.

This was on Thursday.

And they said it's now quiet in that funding.

So let it stay quiet.

Your answer to the funding is he hasn't been requested to appear.

But maybe he will request it by that time.

Then I have to just go on any second.

Sure.

And the long-standing tradition and the reasons for it, the separation of powers, the need for advice to the present.

No, you...

I'm going to be completely honest.

You can.

I talked about that before, and it's a good answer.

I'm going to be very brief, though.

I don't want to... You don't want any long answers on things that are detrimental to us.

I think it's safe to say that...

They'll be a little long.

We've got a report and stuff occurring in the next few days.

And they're probably going to ask the CBI a few questions.

They'll ask political questions.

I don't want to turn all those off.

My usual answer won't come.

Bussing will be.

Bussing, they'll go into that.

The constitutionality of the moratorium.

And it's a C-150.

I'm glad you considered all these questions.

But I've reached that conclusion.

I believe this Constitution will be sold out.

And if it isn't through remedies that lie beyond it?

It is proved that it is not a constitutional approach.

And so I'm in favor of a constitutional amendment.

Well, the silly argument that makes me know that you're trying to challenge the Constitution

That's the point.

We're trying to do it through the legislative process.

If the courts determine, we've had excellent legal advice that it is constitutional.

Should the courts determine it is not, then obviously there's a succeeding step to be taken.

But this is the orderly process.

Propose the legislation, let the courts interpret it.

And if the courts interpret it as constitutional, then we will have to use the constitutional process.

Exactly.

Very right.

be arguing as they are that your legislation is

But you're going through the legislative process, and then if the courts strike it down, then there's the constitutional process.

The 14th Amendment provides that the Congress shall have authority in this field of action.

The Congress is using that authority.

That's correct.

Now, the court cannot determine that this action is not constitutional.

But if the court does determine that, then we shall have to amend the Constitution and accomplish our goal.

I agree with that.

I think that totally answers the critics effectively on both sides those who say that this is the point he said he wasn't sure of his facts but he thinks that income tax went the same way that it's perfectly proper to go through the legislative process first and in this case very desirable because of the need for speed if it doesn't succeed

And it's perfectly proper to try it.

You're not prejudging what the constitutional interpretation will be.

If it does succeed, then naturally you will seek the constitutional process that is necessary to bring about what you believe the policy should be and what the majority of American people want the policy to be.

But that answers the critics who say you're going for a constitutional amendment, therefore you're not going to solve the problem immediately.

It also answers the ones on the left who say that you're trying to undercut the transition.

Hell, we fully expect it to be interpreted.

The ones on the left are probably in bed.

Yeah, I have to lighten the bed when they squeal about it.

That's fine.

This makes the point that we're trying to do something about it.

I don't think there are any issues here.

They've gone too damn far in their social life, that sort of thing.

That's the best phrase.

That just caught it all, wrapped it all up.

You can't express it that much better than that.

I had to put it down quite a bit.

He wrote, and I said, what did you want to say?

And he wrote something out.

He says, I do not believe the children of America should be used as guinea pigs by social planning.

No, no.

And I said, I've used them to, it'll be the guinea pig speech.

It shows you how.

That's the kind of thing that creeps in the head who's not on what you can and who you know works on.

And it's the kind that you've just got to avoid.

That would have been a utter disaster.

Well, the person has to avoid it.

Some of those can use that kind of thing.

Yeah, that's something to learn and talk about.

Wallace can talk about it.

You can't.

I can't say.

Kenny Diggs.

They say, which man?

Black Kenny Diggs.

I can't say.

Well, Pat has a way of making a point very poignantly.

Yeah, well, if it sticks in there and you put it that way, then I, of course, in three hours, I think, got across the same point, but without music.

I was interested.

We concentrated our phone calls that night on labor people and ethnics, because that's where your bussing practice happened.

And they were just enthusiastic as hell.

They caught the message.

They got that.

The pitch, the Brennan's, the Peter Brennan's, that's just great.

100% with him.

We know what he's doing.

It is tough.

If I had found a constitutional amendment that I was satisfied with, I'd have been to the Constitutional Amendment.

It's clean, clear, interesting.

But it would have been irresponsible to do so and would not have moved on the problem now.

All it would have done would have been to have it inflamed.

polarized situation between now and the election, which would not be of any interest, our interest either.

Maybe, well, not certainly of any interest to the country.

Now, at least we keep some blacks.

A few, you know what I mean, in our own list, we say, well, what the hell are we not?

We're looking at the extremists.

The polls, you know, with the blacks, show that they're a hell of a large percentage of that, of course, of us.

Yes, sir.

National history.

Oh, I think that's it.

That's where the hypocrisy lies.

That's where Muskie and... Another line I took, which I'm sure it ringed Muskie good, was when I said, which I worked in, the idea that everybody who was opposed to busking was anti-black.

I said, this is a vicious libel.

What?

That was a great phrase.

Vicious libel.

Parents who oppose busking because they're against segregation, because they're for better education.

They're talking about buying homes in neighborhoods because their schools are good, and having to bust their kids away.

Hell, that is threatening to people.

Yes, it is.

I think they are the person who should have those two points in speech.

That's what they need to understand.

That's just libel or something that the editors might... That's just libel.

I mean, look, 75% of the people in this country are bullshittering.

Exactly 75% of them are racist.

That's a vicious line.

And one that a lot of people do right.

Well, I suspect this weekend won't be much different than last.

This weekend won't be much different than last with investigators, phone calls.

Oh, lab tests.

I must say, it's unbelievable.

I just wish that it was.

I had the opportunity.

What was it?

I just wish I had the opportunity.

What?

The private life test.

Battle.

He's a damn fool to go down.

You know, any newspaper man is a fool to go forward with any, you know, he should, you know, they post them all.

No, post them all.

He's a very slick fellow.

So is he.

That's, you know, well, they should, but...

I just don't know whether their questions were good enough.

Oh, their questions were good enough.

They asked a question, but you can't anticipate all the possible problems in advance.

And instead of keeping hitting, it's going to be a very good question.

I'm just going to keep repeating that question.

And actually, the thought of the incident, maybe he knows something.

I don't know.

The only one who did it was Marlowe Cook.

Marlowe Cook.

Yeah, he's telling.

Yeah, he kept warning the entire time.

But finally, Perkin made the only mistake they made, which was to say, well, he gave the papers to him.

And that, we were able to turn in last weekend for a little bit of an issue.

It's going on all the networks.

And we've got the private agents.

We'll keep at it.

We'll leave it on this week.

We'll get it on before it's over.

I want Dad to pretend this will happen because I think it will discourage him in the future.

Well, even if you can hold it about where it is, it'll discourage him some.

It's going to keep him loose.

Oh, I think if we... Oh, sure, if we...

If we doubt about the authenticity of the memo, if that's taken in by the Senate, if it's been taken in by a hoax, that could be a...

It could have one hell of a...

It would make them think very wrong, Eric, before they did it again.

On an Anderson story.

Yes, sir.

That's it.

That's what we've got to do.

They all know he's alive, but he's going to be caught.

Amazing, the skill with which I pose a new one.

But if we turn this, Mr. President, or even if we leave a lot of devs about it, I mean, Peter Beard, she's not going to change.

She's on that line yesterday.

And that has to leave some devs, even if we miss on the paper.

And they've got to get it over at some point.

And if we keep handling this, if we get any corroboration, which we know what it's on, they've got to think about it.

Kennedy's come in last night.

I just thought it was choice.

The reporter got to him immediately when it was on the wires.

And he said, well, when have we been having all these hearings?

If they really, if they do start having deaths, they're going to.

Be awful careful about pushing this kind of a thing too far.

Yeah, you know, maybe.

Be certain to lose.

The thing I want to go after is if I can find one honest reporter.

Oh, boy.

And I'm sorry, it's why Anderson signed that photograph that way.

I just, it's another one I have a sneaky feeling about.

Anyone?

Do you think it was Martin Luther?

Yes.

Joe?

Yes.

What do you think?

What's your judgment?

My wildest suspicion would be that the bartender in the lounge at the cocktail lounge across the street from Anderson's office, close friend of Anderson's secretary,

Very congenial little fellow.

Has known cabinet members who dropped in there, high government officials, congressmen, senators.

That's kind of a collecting place.

Could damn well be a fellow who overhears conversations and feeds them to Anderson.

Gives him leads.

Could have been on his payroll.

That could have been a joke, but Anderson is known for something, you know.

And he was awful jumpy about it.

You know, the minute Cook said that, he, within an hour, gave an affidavit up on the hill.

So we knew he had something sensitive.

He doesn't react that way.

But that's one who will pursue that and will find somebody who's talented, of course.

But we'll stay with the time.