Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on ITT case and Richard Kleindienst

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So that can't be canceled.

He is a friend of a friend with a senator.

All he should know is he's a guy that wants to, that is supporting you and has never met you.

Simply wants to shake hands.

There are some other people involved who will not be there or anything else.

It's a very big event, isn't it?

Yeah.

Kind of a strange thing.

Yeah.

It's a shame, because he's working the campaign.

He isn't working.

He's a very large contributor.

And we don't want to set him up for any kind of a meeting here.

He knows that?

Yeah.

Uh... Jackson obviously wants a job.

Why the hell do you need one?

I'll give you the best job you can get.

He says he doesn't want another job, but when he's leaving, have a look.

Sure.

yeah and this was going to be and this is part of the reason we did it was going to be joan crocker

But she's sick or something now, so Ann Landers is coming instead.

Let's do it with the...

I think it's just so I... Oh, I suppose then she's... That just ties you to the cancer, right?

That's the only reason?

That's the only reason.

Well, there's another thing we can do.

They cannot hurry.

There's a thing that we can add that I don't think you want to miss.

The whole drug store that you said is in San Diego.

That's terrible.

But I don't think we need to.

I think, well, I don't know.

Maybe I'm not.

It's a little shaky right now.

I think we don't have any gas.

We don't want to overdo it.

Okay.

Good.

Going back to the scientific teaching, I had a session with a acquaintance, John McGregor, last night somewhere, and said, I'm too gracious, so I've got you out of this.

And he said, thank you.

And I got McGregor to start me a coffee, and I don't know what happened, so I wanted to anyway, but I went to the coast this morning, reviewed the bidding, this is where we stand now, and the point of our...

agreement that Clint Eastwood .

We now get into the other subsurface of McGregor is deeply distressed by that.

He wants to deal with it.

Well, he points out, and Colson, of course, is totally in agreement with him, that, in the first place, Claims doesn't know anything about what's happening on this case.

He has, as he said, stayed out of it.

The lawyer is saying he is leisure, not AFL, and claims to be no leisure existed.

Okay, but Eastland is calling McGregor on a continuing basis, asking about the Republican counts.

Do we have the times?

Is Vaughn going to be back?

He called yesterday afternoon to reconfirm his commitment to vote with us on closing hearings next Thursday.

I can call a vote.

No problem on that.

And Clark says, I don't know how I'd turn off that kind of contact with Eastman.

He said the other thing that you're not being told the full story on is that Eastland's real plan here is to go for an acting attorney general, not to go for a confirmation.

Eastland asked McGregor yesterday or the day before for assurance on behalf of the president that the president would keep calling Eastland on as acting attorney general if they were not able to get to a floor vote.

Hart makes the point that if we turn the Eastland contact over to Kleindienst, you've got a battle between these two.

Martin has said to Eastland that Kleindienst's presence made the pitch about the serious philosophical differences between McGregor and Kleindienst, that you need not be concerned about that when McGregor's motives in this are perfectly clear.

Martin said to Colson,

in other people's presence, that they should not bring McGregor in on this because obviously he wants to sink Plunkett because he wants the job.

So you see this factor is in there on their side.

McGregor's concern on our side is that in trying to get the confirmation, which is what he's after,

Mitchell, Kleindienst, and Martin have pretty conclusively proven in their track record that they aren't as smart as Eastland.

They have misjudged every

that the Eastlands told them so far.

Well, you had an impression that we were leaving the confirmation matter at Compton Line Eastman.

No, sir.

I told them that that was the only thing you left at Compton Line Eastman was a contract with Eastman because he drank so then they saw us with him and we needed a commitment from him.

We're working every other damn thing the way we want to.

Well, but part of the reason they want to pay the Compton Line Eastman

They don't object to Kleenex talking to Eastland, they object to being closed off from contact with Eastland.

On the basis, well, that's what we pretty much agreed to yesterday, and that's exactly what Kleenex actually agreed to, and told, remember Kleenex flatly said, you've got to keep Mark McGregor away from Eastland.

Back to the fact, you see, there is a McGregor-Eastland problem also, because in the campaign against Humphrey,

McGregor argued we need to change it in the Senate so that we won't have all those Southern Territories dominating the committees.

And Eastland apparently has that in all of his paper ads.

But McGregor doesn't like it.

But McGregor's gotten around to that with a lot of other things.

And thinks he has a good relationship.

Yeah.

The other thing is that

Klein each now and then said you can't talk to Eastland after 5 o'clock, meaning that was a direct reference to a meeting Marty and McGregor had with Eastland at 6 o'clock the day before.

And that's when, among other things, Eastland got back to the point of the way we've got to set this up is to keep Klein in his acting attorney general.

And Klein being seen that you weren't going to buy that, he now knows that you won't buy that.

He knows it, but Eastland doesn't.

was trying to conquer, oh, I should make a point there that, well, this is all, a lot of this is all, this, you know, some of it is the usual thing that goes on in spats, but the thing to do is to use everyone, everybody you can.

I certainly think that it turns into a relationship with Eastland, that Mike East is a good man to talk to.

was on the Justice Court?

Let us see what he can do.

Let us see if he can get a commitment.

But when we talked to Mike, he said this morning, when he talked about the commitment, he said the one thing that I think is important is that we've got to declare a greater, it's got to continue to talk to all the Republicans, you know, on his count, and we'll do so.

or you got another thing there's no reason why economy spot shouldn't get the fan to work on the urban problem maybe there's a way to get it urban that we don't know about do you agree i agree that maybe there is part of it part incidentally the other side of all this that comes out of it

public stuff to a certain degree is that they're they aren't going to get a clean cut vote on stopping hearings which is the let's do maybe the principal problem what they're going to get is a compromise thing of hearing x number of moral witnesses of course worse setting up a subcommittee with teddy kennedy to continue the

as chairman to continue the, is that what the Republicans are going to vote for?

They may.

That may be what all this spot stuff is coming up with.

But that's what Teddy is voting for.

And McGregor and Colson are both convinced to claim each view that we only lose three votes on the committee is wrong, way off.

Probably.

I have doubts about that, too.

But also McGregor and Coulson could be off on the other side, too.

Sure.

But they're, as McGregor always has done, and I think it's the right way to do it, they count doubtfuls as negatives.

They only go, they try to go solid on grounds.

So they know what they've got, so I think that's probably right.

I think that's probably all.

This gets back to the department versus White House, initial versus White House, and all that kind of stuff.

And you'll have the same problem.

You talked to me earlier about who's going to be the cop in San Diego.

But there I know we're not going to be the cops in San Diego.

I'm going to keep that one step away from us, even though we'll be money.

I just want one step away from the White House.

Do you agree with that?

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I just think it's...

This one, I must confess, I have no confidence in finding these things, much less in Martin, in terms of what they can do, what they know, and how to work.

And they're single-minded.

What they want is to help.

It's a little different than what you want.

Although, ultimately, the best for everybody would be for funding to be confirmed.

Yeah.

Well, at least we made it this much partners.

In our own thinking, we know that we cannot have client expecting attorney general to come to that present convention.

Correct.

I just wonder, I guess it's counterproductive, whether funding suddenly back there is.

so that we wouldn't be forced to bring people home.

We're trying to.

Clint Eastwood wouldn't have to say the president won't do it.

Clint Eastwood said he's not the one.

I clearly understood that there is not a question here of Mike continuing his acting attorney general for anything other than another month or so in time, another time.

In other words, sir, it's all the name of an unpersonal racist in Eastland.

The other thing that disturbs McGregor is that last week he came to McGregor and said, you've got to get in this thing and pull it together.

We know that the resources are here to work with these people.

Well, I hope you didn't overstate it because it was a flying biker.

We didn't.

Only said McGregor should get out of the Eastman drill.

He didn't talk about anybody else.

That's right.

He just had a relationship with Eastman.

That's right.

McGregor's point is you can't run this thing on two tracks.

You can't have...

Marty, what you're talking about is Marty.

It's Marty who we'll be working with, not Clindy.

As Clindy's pointed out, Marty is my representative.

He speaks for me.

Marty doesn't track with anybody, and all our people have said that all along.

The way he tracked with Mitchell.

Probably if you can.

But there's one thing I do know that I'm right on, on Eastland.

Eastland is tricky, untrustworthy, and does things from highly personal motives.

Now,

Eastland has never done anything, we talk about the votes and all the rest, he has never done anything with potential or fine deeds that is strictly or untrustworthy.

Yeah, on the judges and so forth, he kept his word on that.

He worked all the way through it.

I don't think in Clark's case that he does that, that he would have, that he just run Taylor from Clark Pencil, because he considered him to be an ardent liberal.

That's what I feel is the problem.

That's right.

Eastman hasn't been tricky with it, but they have relied on Eastman, and Eastman hasn't been able to deliver.

Well, and isn't that contrary to thinking that we're relying on Eastland at all?

I'm just trying to get Eastland's commitment that he himself will bring the thing up to a vote on Thursday and vote with us.

And then, well, we've got that.

Well, Clark says that we have that.

Yeah.

And vote with us.

Well, then, why do they think Eastland are quite a subcommittee?

Is that a thing that they can vote?

Because they may not get it.

See, what Clark disagrees with me is how the vote will go.

That's in my opinion, because it didn't get put easily in the column.

And Republican, bygone, didn't get...

I mean, I haven't figured it through, but I think it seems to me it got in the organ.

Except for the pressures of the publication.

Not necessarily a subcommittee, but a few more witnesses are a little bit here, a little bit there.

Mikey's working on it.

Everybody else is working on it.

Scott, et al.

What's your recommendation?

I don't believe, in other words, when I could set it up between you and the client, I would set it up with you and Marty.

I said, my need is to talk to you.

You're not going to talk to Marty at all.

And my need is to get his own counsel.

Didn't it seem to you that Conley did rather well?

Right.

All of that's

Because he did lose.

I can give you a big story, and then focus on him, and our environments will continue caring.

You know, he's been out all the time.

You're going to help end the election, I assume, on contributions.

You must even contribute.

Yes, I will.

— 2 min 54 s with no transcribed speech —

What are you going to do about that?

Do our people have any thoughts still about planning?

They don't want to write a letter now or anything.

They want to talk to her.

Yes, sir.

If that makes any difference, sir.

They don't want to go beyond that.

They want to go beyond an off-the-record conversation.

Well, finally, a personal conversation.

I thought that you were really tremendously present yesterday in your conversation about China.

Mrs. Elsa, I've never heard you, you know,

I was in the Houston party afterwards.

I thought to myself, we're going to have to do that every night.

Oh, no, but you really, you did it with so much fire and so much deception.

And they never heard it before.

Oh, she was absolutely flabbergasted.

And I said, well, I hear that every day.

I called on him to get a little talk, and I called on him.

Yeah, but you did 95% of it on China.

I really... No.

It wasn't...

I mean, I picked it up from you.

Here's all of it.

And it was really done with great force and also how you compared them to other leaders.

Too bad we can't do it anymore.

i thought that was exciting you know one thing about joe i hadn't realized he's becoming very very old what is this raw that's what i'm concerned about

I don't know what that's about at all.

Well, got it.

You may recall, I have said for some time, with the major thing you have to have here, if you have this straight up and down partisan vote, there's no problem.

I mean, it's ridiculous.

If you count on every Republican running off, see, they've got to call this thing partisan.

It was interesting that

They didn't comment on a very good point.

Yeah.

Sure did.

Ended exactly the way we wanted.

We couldn't squeeze in.

I've worked out the right kind of people.

I worked out with Connolly going down to Texas with him to talk in Houston.

We asked him.

I asked him about that.

Good.

Well, how about Dallas?

He thinks Dallas, too, and he thinks that it's better to hear answers in Dallas than tap driver.

Oh, well, yes.

There's no question about that.

Oh, yes, yes, I know.

That's correct, yes.

I know you did it.

I'm just supporting what you're saying.

The point is that...

He says he can get the key people that Tack wants, he can put into his crew.

Exactly.

And so the way we'll do is do lunch in one town and dinner in the other.

That's great.

And so?

And he'll go down with me.

What did you, you know, Joe was telling Bob, I'll suck his weed with Pat.

That's where I'm at.

Because he's poor.

He polls for left-wing liberal organizations like he polls for anyone.

And always told them what they want.

Well, he does a phone call, he's the guy that does all the phone calls in the heavens of no time, where they both say to, well, they go around in these stories, and they finish, and Dave Grover works with them some, too, where they talk to 17 people in the state, and then they say that, you know, the results are such and such.

Yes.

McGregor thinks that Blair is probably behind the Senate's cancellation then.

I think so, too.

That's right.

Yeah, but McGregor thinks last probably 40 months would be... Well, he may have.

No, what would he...

Senator said it, I put it for a writer of his work, I don't know anything about it.

I said to him, he said, look, he said, you know, I just greatly appreciated this long talk we've had tonight and the chance to hear reviews and all so forth.

And he said, I don't think there's any real need unless you want me to come down today.

That's what he said.

The one thing that I'm curious.

I see once that Laird has gotten in to get out of it because he doesn't want to be put on the spot in front of the presidential powers.

Question, and the only thing I want to get, that, that, that, that, oh.

Because Senator doesn't want to be put on the spot.

On the other hand, I can't have Senators come because they want to come, right?

But if you're self-departing and you've got to make them come, then he's setting up a red party.

We better watch what's happening here.

Because Senators point that he is prepared to talk to you and wants to hear some more.

That's a lot of bullshit because he's prepared to give a long speech on the Senate floor.

Nobody can't make them come.

You didn't talk about that feature at all.

I think what is going on, I wasn't even focusing on the war powers.

I think that Laird is pulling a deal with Senate to cut troops in Europe.

And I don't think we need that prior to the summit.

So what I would...

I wanted to ask you a question.

I was going to say, if you go down and say, look, Senator, you're not going to, we're not going to see, you're not going to have a meeting.

There's one thing the President could have mentioned in that group last night.

And that is, before we go to the summit, there must be nothing which undercuts the President's bargaining policy, so to speak.

Nothing.

And, for example, there can be nothing on war crimes, and then after the debate is all we want, there must be nothing on troops.

And that's what I want to be telling them.

I didn't want to do it with the district.

I'll stop listening.

and others, but he must know that this is terribly important to the Justice Summit.

And then get it a little doubly good.

You know, there's some things that Senator and Secretary Laird and others don't even know about, and Secretary of State doesn't know about, that the President is working on directly with Brezhnev.

You see what I mean?

Absolutely.

Let me call him first and...

Well, you understand that you think it'll panic, don't you?

I'll say, Senator, I'll let you know.

Oh, yes.

Good.

Fine.

That would be good.

I'd like for him to drop down and see you.

He'll be calling.

I appreciate you giving him a few minutes.

That would be very helpful.

See, that's so that he doesn't think you're in trouble.

No, that would be more than helpful, right?

Senator Sanders, please.

I didn't know that it was... Actually, you know, it's pretty good.

It was really a good night.

It was a nice, uh, awful night.

You didn't get to enjoy it, did you?

Uh, but, uh, your father was, uh...

I was hoping you wouldn't know this.

He thought he was seeking out and not getting to it.

I thought he realized the crisis.

He had a little paper in my hand.

Well, I told him.

I told him for an hour.

I was gonna say, we get very moved a little closer, right?

Sometimes some of us only go, there it goes.

Yeah, the supper, it was very, it wasn't really, but it was the way it was done.

Yeah.

It's a very, and also, also the fact that we needed two rooms, we received a room when we served George Washington, our father was my mother, and they certainly say, save your family, save this country.

We can't say that the king was the father of this country, but certainly the one who knows the history of Europe knows that he is the savior of Europe.

Mr. President, I think that the level of the toes...

They're all about a damn toe, but you're not...

It's...

They are...

almost without exception, very subtle, and the standard of them is so high that if somebody put them together and looked at them.

But the treasure's not looking for ways to make it look.

Let me ask you a couple of things, Henry.

Sure.

When will you get to Texas?

I want you to get this before the time thing cools off.

I hope you can do it within the next week or so.

Your conservatives went well.

Did Billy Graham come?

Oh, yes.

He called me.

Did he call you?

No.

He just called me.

It's not self-serving, but I just called him.

He said, he said, you will not be able to tell the impact of that.

It's so enormous.

He said, Howard Lentzel, I don't know who he is, Christianity Today.

He said it was turned around completely.

He was turned around completely.

He called him afterwards and said he's got an entirely new perspective.

And the result of this, he said, it wasn't just good, it was overwhelming.

And the thing, the greatest mistake he made about this damn trip, well, it wasn't great.

A big mistake was he took the cannon along.

Because he took the cannon along, he wasn't going to be sold.

And he pisses on it since he comes back, you know.

He has no, no, no, but...

in his own mind, among our staff people.

He said it out of something.

Now, who the hell is out of something?

Well, that's what a scallion is.

I've got to say a scallion, a real scallion, and in the right way.

You know what made him a Christian?

Pardon me, what made him a Jew?

But what made him a Christian or a Jew or whatever he is was when he saw that, and that fight with Rogers.

You know, you remember that?

Yeah.

He couldn't believe it, could he?

No, I don't know, when did he run, when did he reach back?

The next morning.

I just went to him on Sunday morning, and started pissing on the communique.

While we were in China, while the thing was still.

And then Skelly asked for the money.

And put it in.

Skelly's smart enough to reach for it.

And incidentally, Bob would be involved in seven or nine examinations.

Not one of them.

Good morning, John.

How are you?

Good to talk to you.

Well, listen, that was fun to have you there, and I just wish we could have heard you talk more at all.

Henry and I sort of, and Mrs. Nix and John and I sort of took it over with that.

But we listened to you up near the floor.

I guess I, sorry, Mrs. Nix wasn't there.

She's one of my favorites.

I have one thing I'd like to say.

And I would like Henry, if it's all right with you, he'll give you a call sometime.

If you could get him just a few minutes and he'll tell you that it's a...

what what happens in the senate after the summit is the that's okay but before the summit there is a great necessity for a reason that he will tell you for us to play a very strong game and i think you ought to know that and then you're you're welcome to have the information

And then you can use it your own way, you know, but it's like, you know, there's some things that we just can't tell everybody.

And so if he'll come down and he'll call you, John, will you be here all day or are you going out?

He'll call you this morning around 11 o'clock.

Okay.

Fine.

Right.

Well, he'll just tell you that we will appreciate your help on that, on that line.

Or, well, I guess I assume that would you, you know, would you prefer not to today?

Or...

Why don't we just make the two of us, or each other, set it up when you want at a later time and not have any cabin officers.

Because I have some things that we don't want to get around.

I'll be glad to do that.

Whenever you're ready.

Oh yeah, this is another matter.

Good.

I think he's all right.

He says, I'd like to talk to you alone, just the two of us.

He says, possibly with Henry there.

It's the other way around.

This fellow says, look, he says, I just want to be home.

He says, I just want to be home.

And you see, he's got to know.

Now, Laird is so tricky.

You see there, Laird got the right information because he trusts Laird.

You see, Laird's wrong on this one.

Larry Trump, I think, I think Trump.

I don't think Spence trusts Larry, that's my, I don't think Clark trusts Larry.

I think Spence is President-oriented.

That's right.

Not Captain.

No, no, the way I would handle him, Henry, is that I would go down and I would say, look, Senator first on assault, fighting like a tiger against the unilateralist armies.

Second,

The President is greatly impressed by your view that the Defense Department, and here's what he did very hard to do last night, that the Defense Department is extremely wasteful in many areas.

He said he's got a lot of contracts.

That's what I think is going to happen.

He's going to start some investigation on some of the overruns and all that sort of thing.

He said, and his view, of course, is that we ought to put the money in hardware type of thing, which will impress the Russians and impress the Chinese, rather than a hell of a lot of personnel that costs us money.

This is Spanish talking.

So you can tell him that we're impressed with that.

The third thing is that our views with the Russians are that we're in this position that

that we must not give an inch with regard to Europe.

We can't give an inch that we can't indicate that we're going to cut our defense expenditures in any way prior to the summit because I'm going to drive as hard a bargain as I can after the summit

then we may be able to take a look at some things and we'll keep in a close touch with the whole thing.

That's not what you would say, exactly.

And you wouldn't say, I wouldn't even say, no, Senator, nothing.

What is not relevant, even for the Secretary of State or the Secretary of Defense, is the President's impression and personal communication with my letter.

And you can't say that this is not the President's narrative.

It's no expression.

You know what I mean?

You're not going to see him a little bit, right?

It's true.

That is true.

And your conversation with Cabrinha, deliberately, on his part, he has one personal mistake.

All right.

Then, maybe it'll give you the stroke, so that when you can call him a senator, he gets the word of heart and say, look here, we just can't handle this.

Correct.

That's right.

He's a great patriot.

He doesn't have the strength.

He has the same decency and orientation.

And when he knows what you want, he fights for it.

I liked that they were a little suspicious about the Charm Apology, but they shared a standing ovation at the end.

Oh yeah, we had to shut them off because they all wanted to get up and say they were now for us.

Well that's their thing, that they come to the cross.

They wanted to be a witness or testimony, whatever they called it, one after the other.

Billy Graham just said it's now 1130.

He said it's 1130, I think already.

But it was...

No, you've done it right.

It's very good.

Well, I'll go to Dallas and use my code, John, to find out.

Well, you went to Chicago with you.

That's the other place I'm going.

That's Chicago.

No, but he gives me the list.

Now, who lives in Dallas?

The West Coast, I thought I'd say... Yeah, but that's soon enough.

That's after Russia.

But here, this time, I wanted to get it different.

I wanted to get it more into the media area, the media there, and use the television on the West Coast.

Regional television in Los Angeles has more impact than one television national show.

George Button has gone into a new format now where he has a half hour of his newscasts into a different kind of thing that might be worth even more than Button.

Oh, he's got a huge audience.

Huge audience.

Well, it comes to another thing.

I think I want Henry to do a San Francisco crime.

Yeah.

He's never done a San Francisco crime.

And what I would get there is get the P.U.

called.

Well, I'll pick a man.

He's got, well, what we're going to use is Big Coon.

We're just a week ahead of the crime event.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

Dave Parker.

I'm sure Dave Parker was put together.

There's another one.

Well, yeah.

Coon, he gets more...

Well, now that you get to say it, Cooley is a top scientist, and I've had a two, and I've had a two, and it's got the shape.

Cooley and Packard could be the, could be the joint hosts.

Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley, Packard, Cooley.

But this is in Syracuse.

It's a very elite, small club.

It's an old house.

Near the Markup, yeah.

Yeah, right.

Well, you see, you can sit in, you can sit with 30 people, and that is the power of the New San Francisco, you know.

They're 10 grand decent, but liberal.

They'll buy it, I should say.

Should I take a special trip out there?

Should I do it when we're out there anyway?

Well, to tell you the truth, I think this question would be very useful.

If you went to Texas and could go on, when you're halfway across anyway, and then could go on to do San Francisco, I think it would be good.

We need to touch on San Francisco.

We really do.

And July is a long time.

Maybe you ought to do it on a swing basis, anyway.

You do Texas, then out to San Francisco, then to Chicago, and then back on it.

You could do it all in four days.

The westerns.

Well, they're not going to pick it up fast.

Okay.

I've got the trip to Japan that screws everything up.

What do you do for the trip to Japan?

You have a marvelous time in San Francisco.

When is it?

The 50s?

Yeah, doing it all the way back.

What do you mean, all the way to Japan?

I don't want those sunless bitches up there to say they're downgrading them.

Well, can I say, if that's the case, a very good thing to do would be to stop in San Francisco and overnight there on the way back, you know, from Japan.

How would that be, Bob?

I'll look at the schedule.

But I'd like to get San Francisco.

Los Angeles should be hit afterwards.

I'd like to get an Orange County crowd.

Los Angeles, that's... Really, he's done Los Angeles.

How about the Orange County crowd?

Well, he's done the key ones in that.

They were at the Los Angeles thing.

Wow.

Okay.

Thank you.

He's done the Jack Schreiber part of it a couple of times.

He's done the conservative part of it.

Maybe it's that we ought to look at it as more of the establishment group.

It's not just the conservative.

That's right.

Well, I'm the only conservative.

Mrs. Chandler once said that anytime I want to, she wants to get together.

The Pasadena in Glendale Group, I don't know who that is.

Strong.

And she said, that's very important for you.

It is.

If I could meet with her.

She makes it self-serving.

Don't worry.

We want her.

I think I got through pretty well.

That's very funny.

You know, I'm going to say about that interesting thing.

I don't know whether it's worth doing it or not.

It goes against my principles, but did he tell you about my

of how I almost puked after the meeting with the arms control committee to keep silent.

Well, look, I have never seen Pete be so soft, so completely out of touch.

Well, I asked him when he thought he could just shut his head after this.

And, you know, McCoy is a senile.

Norrstedt is a... Norrstedt is the most revolting guy.

No, no.

And, of course, Bill Scranton, and so on and so forth.

This bearded guy from Harvard M.I.T.

said, well, when you go over there, as we were, just as I raised you, and I talked to him about the problems and all the other things and so forth, they came down and did nothing on the soft side of everything.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

And then they came.

He said, well, couldn't you, don't you think that what you're there you could read in the book of your testimony?

I said, well, you know, we're checking into a re-verification.

It's kind of a problem.

Well, the ruina is a menace.

And he's on that commission.

Yeah.

Well, that whole project, it's supposed to watch the arms control agency.

Instead, it's to the left of the arms control agency.

Right.

Here's what I had in mind.

I wonder sometimes if I can go to, I mean, I'm thinking of the New York dispatch, recognizing the problems, recognizing when they get down to it, they'll disagree on the economy and a lot of other things, but deep down they will have to fear assuming that it's Teddy Kennedy or us.

They're going to have to give to the country.

I wonder if I should perhaps go in and do the Council on Foreign Relations.

I think you should.

And get just about what I need these people.

I could be free, you know what I mean, and not pay too much.

I think you should.

Because the Bachelors are, as you know, I know they're against us when I say they, for the most part.

But the point is that I really have not, I'm not being, that is totally off the record means.

Yes.

They have enforced it pretty well.

I've agreed to they have a big meeting in June.

Yeah, that's their 100th anniversary.

But that's public.

It's a public speech.

I think that's a whole thing.

I don't want to make that a constant foreign question.

What I'm thinking of is something entirely.

I'm thinking of a way that it gets across to the power group, not because they like it, but they got to understand that I know what they need.

Mr. President, they'll arrange a dinner for you literally any time, and they'll get the 200 or 100 or whatever number you give them.

Key council members say it.

The only thing wrong with the 5 o'clock thing, Mr. President, is...

When the president meets with the council, it should be a somewhat more solemn occasion than the one they have where businessmen on the way home stop in.

I mean, they owe you a special occasion.

I think what you just do

You cannot impress them by reading a prepared speech.

They've heard all of that.

The thing that would make a tremendous impression, and I know the council well, I worked there for a year, and I know all these people.

If you went in there and spoke with that force and conviction and simplicity you did yesterday, so that they, because they all got the image of you of the 50s.

I mean, whenever I tell one of this group what you're like, it's an absolutely astonishing, you can't hear enough of it.

It sounds incredible to them.

As a matter of fact, I'd like to do this with a group of congressmen and senators, but I can't.

I mean, I can't tell them, you know, the...

But if you did this... Give off an impression of the kind of things that I talked about, so that I can remember from the first time.

Well, first of all, what was very impressive, in addition to the substance,

was the simplicity and conviction with which he presented it.

And that it was just pouring out, first, the analogies of the key people.

The analogies of the key people in relation to other world leaders.

It was a very acute summit of each of them.

Second, the

analysis of the world situation in which we find ourselves, and why the United States has to act as it does, what we are trying to do, what the real meaning of the China initiative is, what the real purpose of the summit is.

Joanne, who's a sophisticated guy, came to me when we, after we were downstairs, she said, God, Russian summit, I never thought of it as a serious enterprise.

And, you know, even outside, now he begins to see it.

And then certainly, division of America, what we need as a country in order to be able to do all these things.

When you said, these people didn't talk to me because they liked me, they didn't talk to me because I impressed them as such.

They talk to me because of what we represent, and we don't represent a dynamic economy and a purposeful country.

And some seem like this, and presented with the vision that you did it yesterday, and sometimes you present it in an excessively modest way.

But if you present it with that vision, first of all, it will turn around so many opinions about you as a person.

And these people at the council do have, they probably don't affect any vote, both of them do, they don't affect any vote.

But they help with the mood, and I'm sure that they'd arrange a dinner anytime you wanted.

And now the attack that he's pressured to release, that the establishment is starting, is...

We are playing a pure balance of power game.

George Ball and all that.

George Ball, now they're having a series of lectures at the council.

The balance of power is one of the crappiest I can see.

But what do they think?

What in the name of God did they think their NATO was?

What balance of power?

Well, I hit it with that group yesterday with a search in the house.

I said, I know you gentlemen.

before they were a balance of power.

But we had hegemony and we threw it away.

Now we have to survive in a world where we are no longer all powerful and the only possible policy is to balance the various power factors.

And

What is the argument?

The argument is that this means giving up alliances, which shows the total misunderstanding.

The balance of power is in no sense inconsistent with alliances.

In fact, the way you get power in a balance of power situation, it's through alliances.

The British played balance of power and had plenty of alliances.

They say it makes our allies uncertain.

They want to go back to the situation of the 50s where we could run everything, where we could organize the world.

But that period is past.

But for that reason, it's important.

It would be useful to that group if you come up there and you show up any possible other leader.

I mean, that was so impressive yesterday evening.

I mean, obviously,

You couldn't have rehearsed this.

This came welling out.

Everyone had the sense you could have talked another two hours if you had wanted to.

And I didn't talk to Hopart Lewis in detail, but he too, he was on our side.

But I think they were all not just impressed, but moved.

I consider it very serious.

It's a good group.

If you do it in the right setting, a bit forwards.

I'm not sure I'm going to ask him any questions simply because... You have to do it in the right... Yeah.

Something to be said about it.

No, you can handle the questions easily enough.

I just wondered whether it's compatible with the authors for the president, you know.

No, I do it other times.

You do it other times.

You may get something smart out of it.

Yeah, there is a whole lot of money.

What time do you see the brain today?

1 o'clock.

1.15.

Well, try to cut me if you can.

Oh, yeah.

I would love to.

Do your best.

When will you see the Chinese?

Did Bob have a chance to tell you?

I had just started on this trip when the Chinese notified.

I have an arrangement with Watson.

that whenever he gets notified, then he tells me, and then I tell him to put it in the channel.

Now, Watson, unfortunately, was on vacation.

So, they notified Scott that they gave him the day already.

So, they notified us in Paris.

That April 16th is today, and that son of a bitch there that was on vacation called Mansfield and Scott directly.

Didn't even know if I'd say it.

And... Now it's going to be tougher.

I'll try, but it's going to be tougher.

You know, if this guy had notified me first, we could have sat on it.

God damn it.

What in the hell is the matter with Watson being so stupid not to tell his opposite, his subsidiary, that he's supposed to do this?

What in the hell is the matter with the foolish, silly fool?

He knew that he was supposed to inform us in advance of these things.

But Watson, uh, Watson mattered then.

That's nice, but why didn't he tell his support?

Because it's too dangerous if he tells his support and everything.

Yeah, because they have put out an order from Syria that they are not permitted to use back channels.

They must do it all through the secondary.

And we are circumventing it with our own imperative.

I see.

It looks like they are attacking now.

They have not.

That was the gunner?

Yeah.

The driver of the DMZ had some sort of pitch at the gunner, made them check whether the, of course, the weather is too bad for us to bomb.

We must have the world's worst air force.

What's the situation, eh?

Is this, uh, this is an attack on broad front?

It looks that way.

It's, uh,

They have attacked eight fire support bases, which is usually the way these things are.

And they're attacking within range of the Sands and North Florida.

It says they're doing fairly well.

You know, the first six hours of an attack, you know, they can tell.

That's what they say.

They say they're reacting well, but I think you can't say it's decent.

I think if this is a real attack, we should hit the sands in North Vietnam.

Sure.

Without protecting.

And we told them we were going to do it.

Right.

Well, I don't see why we don't do it right now.

It's sweating.

Let's wait until the end of the day to see whether it's a real attack or just a play.

And also knock off the...

I wouldn't have Porter go second back in comparison.

No.

If there's an attack, we can't do that.

That's right.

Remember you told them that.

No.

And then I won't go to the ex-offensive player meeting, either.

That's right.

We can't do that.

Play it very tough.

We can't delay it.

So we're stuck with Scott going on April 16th, then?

I think so.

I'm going to see whether...

I'll talk to the Chinese ambassador in New York today to see whether... On the phone?

Oh, I'll send a message.

I'm afraid that... that we are in... Vietnam.

About two weeks before you leave.

But I will really lay it into them about Vietnam.

Yep.

That doesn't bother me as much.

I mean, what he does with Shearer, I mean, your buddy knows he's with Shearer, but if they play around with him on Vietnam, he comes back with some goddamn half-assed piece of things.

But now, let me ask, what the hell is the situation here?

Well, I, Mr. President, I think it is infinitely better for us that the attack is coming down.

My nightmare was that they do it in September and October.

That's right.

If, we'll either win or lose.

And I don't think we'll lose because if I watch them in Laos, for example,

There's no reason why they haven't been able to take Long Chien yet.

They haven't.

Except the fact that they're a lot weaker than they used to be.

And if we, they'll use up their supplies this way and we know when this is over there's going to be anything the rest of the year.

I think if this attack continues 24 hours, then we should hit them by Sunday or Monday.

I think a 48-hour attack.

48-hour attack, right.

And that... Don't scatter it around in ways that are going to affect this thing.

That's right.

If I'm just north of the DMZ, is that where it is?

Yes.

Like the B3 strike there, is that what you said?

Yes, sir.

And that would get rid of the... We could take out the sands, the plots, the supplies, and then they can go in with gunships against us again.

Is that right?

Yes.

Well, that's...

of course, Dennis, and I think, I think, I'm also related to the reading that your friend had wrote you a letter this week, which is very, very conciliatory.

He says he's got it.

The salt will be settled.

If I were you to tell the brain that he will, first of all, it would be your best to cut the deal and pull it.

But the second thing, and you can point out that he could be not concerned about what I say and pull it.

He could be very sure that there's no problem on that and we would be totally discreet.

But that I think we're going to be in a terrible position if we turn it down.

The second point is, I think he should tell the brain that.

We're rather surprised by this attack.

I don't like this attack.

And you could say, look, you don't know it.

The president said he wants to make the best possible arrangement with the freshmen.

We're all out.

We're on the same track.

But an attack in North Vietnam may make it impossible.

It may spoil it.

Well, I play very hard with him.

In fact, at the end of his letter, he had a rather mild expression of hope that we wouldn't bomb the Mosque at night.

I can just say, well, we can't.

That's right.

We've shown great, great strength.

Great strength.

Since this, now, he says, we're going to have to do it.

And it's only because they're attacking.

And you've just got to keep, have them knock off this attack, or we're going to bomb it.

But I tell him, now, look, Mr.

Ambassador, I cannot vouch for what he won't do.

I mean, don't think that it's going to be limited to what we have done before.

Throw that in again.

These facts continue.

I believe I owe it to you to say that don't assume that it will not be, that it will be limited to the time that the bombing has done before.

The effort is not to be to be trying to get them to attack in February, in March, in December, by then it's back.

No, October, November, the weather was bad.

I don't know when they came in then.

Maybe in July, or was it...

Thank you, Harry.

You know, it's incredible that that Scotch man, that Scotch man, still went forward that way.

Show you little shit asses in the State Department building.

Those little god damn bastards, you know, calling them direct, not even the Department of the Secretary of State, if you know what I mean.

Yeah.

Trying to leave big shots across every little channel.

And of course Bill is like, says, who did you came here to?

I'm telling these people that all the messages must come through the State Department channel.

Now Bill knows they leave.

You know, he knows it damn well.

Well, we don't.

Don't we?

Don't we know?

Sure.

I said that when I saw him.

He was a little flabby about it.

He was a little flabby about it

We're not going to do it.

They were there.

They got to hear everything they want.

They're not going to bring any goddamn reporters in.

They're going to have to bring us to remember everything that's been invented.

Make their notes.

i don't think so

that decision coming back to idt and uh and i hope let me say this um

But I've got to get somewhat away from the damn thing.

And I can't be in a day-to-day deal about who talks to whom and all that sort of thing.

But I've got to do it.

Would you agree or not?

Yeah.

And I think they ought to get away from it, too, sometimes.

I guess they can't.

I think they can.

Can I suggest one thing that I think would be very good?

In the case of Colson, he hasn't been working his bottom line until he's, you know, works till midnight.

High after night, he's up in the morning.

Why don't you tell him that this is now Thursday, and that this is my room, because he ought to take off Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

He wants you to go to camp too.

What do you think?

Isn't that a good idea?

Take a span.

Take time off.

You won't go up there, you'll go south, and that's what the other day.

Would you urge him, and maybe urge him this afternoon to go together?

He needs time off.

He'll come back with a different perspective too.

Now, you've got to keep the internecine border between the White House and the Department.

I know that usually the Department is more than that.

I also know that the White House is always right, too.

Where there is a tendency when you get over here,

Everybody, you have to believe that we have all the balls in play.

You know, Henry isn't always right, despite his state.

He hits about 75% of the time.

But goddammit, you can't just assume that the other 25% is right, too.

He isn't.

Right?

Sure.

And that's about the record we have on the domestic side.

I don't care who he is, you know, what age or girl, anybody.

I mean, nobody's right more than about 75% of the time.

So all the brains aren't here.

Right?

Now, on this thing, you play the role, you say, and you tell the client, he says, oh, you called, I guess, he doesn't call, you called him, and you say, now, look, we've got, now, just so we, I agree a little about what he said to my brother, and I said, now, my brother has got the responsibility to get those votes, and he's going to get them, and he said, we want you, and the president wants you to work together on this thing.

Excuse me.

Now, as far as the old man is concerned, the President wants you to deal with it directly and not Marty.

Put it that way.

Put it to him straight.

But I don't want this spread around too much.

I prefer that he do it directly.

He.

This thing is so sensitive that it's mine.

See, Marty didn't know about that damn lawyer either, Bob.

Sir.

I didn't believe that you would bring your coat in, sir.

and didn't get the thing turned off, even Mitchell told us that he argued with Mitchell, and didn't do it.

You did.

What else do you think you could tell him?

Well, I think I also raised the question of him, of these modifying factors, having me into this, turning off the hearing, and he's got to raise that question.

He ought to, I'd like to start before he talks to Eastland, saying he ought to raise that question with Eastland.

We've got a, we've got all these other maneuvers, how are we going to turn those off?

I mean, Clinton's just finally said either the hearings will be ended.

The point is, I'm very much into that.

He's got to prevent to you that the hearings are going to be ended.

That means to clean into the hearings.

It doesn't mean shifting to a subcommittee of Teddy Kennedy or a deal to take 10 more witnesses over the next three weeks or something like that.

It means, what he said was they'll close them off on Thursday.

Well, let's see if they really are going to do that.

Are they really going to close them and then move to the floor?

Or have they got to drag on?

If he wants to handle Eastland, then he ought to take the same objective that the other guys that are handling Eastland are taking, which is try to end it.

Okay.

Clark's view is let me handle it.

I'll have the hearings turned off.

Clark says it's not quite Eastland's game.

He won't get it turned off.

I will.

It would be helpful.

I don't think so.

I think I should, unless you think so.

Well, I just, I didn't talk about that.

The argument for it would be his, he's got to know he's working, you know, as your man and all.

That's, he's shook, which surprised me.

And I think it's probably, because he finds he's just kind of a chef the way he deals, you know, he's an arrogant guy.

He is arrogant.

He probably hit Clark.

Go ahead.

I talked to the president.

I bet this all worked out.

I'd be able to stay out of it.

It worked out.

Clark was obviously shook by that, because when he called me last night, I told him to cut it out this morning.

He didn't cut it out.

But where did he meet him, too?

I think I know what they want with the audience.

Clark is a, is also, you know, I mean, he was honored and stuff.

He's concerned that he wasn't in the meeting with the client.

He's in that response.

See, he sees it.

I'm responsible for getting that nomination confirmed.

I'm responsible for the president for doing it, and I'm going to do it.

You know, I'll listen to Clark, because I don't have a goddamn mind if he thinks he should be in the meeting with the client.

Do you think that I would talk in front of Clark?

Why do we have a meeting with the plaintiffs for the purpose of getting sued for our monies?

Huh?

No, it makes the point that the plaintiffs have to get out, which I won't even tell Clark.

See, I can't tell Clark and Colson what our plan is on that.

I'm not going to.

You know what?

I can't.

I can't solve it.

I told the Attorney General that was $8 for a settlement.

Don't ever assume that...

Colson's office has leaked a bit.

You know, it has from time to time.

And just as any question, something leaks out of here.

And we've got to be more careful on that point.

That's why I saw Kleine's alone.

Kleine's is going to leak it.

Yeah.

That's why we saw Kleine's.

Well, you couldn't tell us about that, President.

I had to prepare him for what would happen to you at a later time.

Correct.

Sure.

I don't think you've ever seen a scene like that.

You want to do that?

I'll see what the best thing is.

You want to clear away something that's in the garage?

Clear away everything.

Well, no, let me try to claim it.

Let's wait a minute.

Let's see if we can get it.

I'd be glad to meet with you.

You see, what makes you, why do you, because you're talking to Clive, you said I was just trying to think.

What do you have in mind that I'd say to Clive or something like that?

Say, of course, did you know I talked to the plaintiffs last night?

He said, by the way, I'd like to get your run down now.

Let me stub this behind you.

I don't want none of that.

I don't want to get into that.

I don't want to get into the votes and who's this and that.

He's giving me that.

And I'm not going to say a damn thing.

I'm just going to refuse the whole thing.

We know what it is.

Some things we can.

Some things we don't.

Some things are going to be one vote.

Some things are going to be none.

But you know, that's the point.

The point is, how do we get every goddamn vote we can?

What he would want to tell you is his concern about where the committee is going to end up.

I'm not used to it.

You said perfect.

I don't want to.

Bob, there's one in your meeting this morning.

I just want you to know where this stands.

I've told him, he said, I don't have to be responsible for the dealings, dealing with Eastman on this because of the relationship he's got with Eastman.

That no way interferes or gets into the other things, and that doesn't.

Well, the thing is, dude, and see, we've told Clint, I think I've got to back up and have him clean.

We've told Clint to keep the trip away from Eastman.

I think I've got to say to Clint, do you mean McGregor is to decline to take Eastman's calls?

No, no, no, no, no.

McGregor is to inform Eastman, not only take his calls, but inform Eastman on the counts that he's getting up there on the Republican side.

You see what I mean?

Clint's purpose is to make the deal with Eastman, but he's going to do the next one.

Why does every person think that he has to handle everything by his confident self?

Because why don't people like help?

They do if the help will work with them.

But the problem he's got here is the help.

The people, they don't get together and work it out together.

Well, one guy's going off doing one thing, another guy just as yesterday.

Our guys are having to have more of a fight with Marty than they do with Eastman.

How did you work out the gridiron?

Ron's talked it through.

Work it out.

It's all done.

Now you're supposed to be in Florida, right?

What about Rodgers?

Who's going to do the response to the toast?

Herbert is what we suggested.

That's what he's doing.

I don't know if he's talking.

Would it be a gesture for you to, without having him, without taking him with us, as well as, apparently, those with us are not, because they're not staying with me, to have Rogers go to Florida?

I think he was going to make his own plans for being gone for the weekend.

Good.

All right.

Just be sure he's informed.

I will be away until then.

And he should be away until he's all right.

That's the way that's left.

That's good.

So we know that he understands.

Let me say this.

I think in regard to Clark, I think what I would do, you should talk to the client and tell the client, now let's understand that we've got everybody working on this thing and we're going to have to have the prayers even on it.

You know, Ryan heard these Republicans because tell him about, for example, what has developed that he doesn't know about and that we didn't know about last night.

Tell him, for example, that some of the Republicans are going off half-assed on this drill of having a subcommittee contend to the Higgins.

You understand?

And tell them also that Eastland is talking about enacting the Attorney General during the election.

And he says, you know, Eastland knows very well we can't re-elect politically.

I think we've got to keep sticking that knife right in the heart.

Yeah, I think the attorney general for the election.

Do you have any doubts on that, sir, or are you telling me?

Or, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but, you know, Mitch was the same way, but I think both Mitch and one of these were thinking in terms of the attorney general rather than in terms of the election.

Yeah.

Not meeting you, but actually they're there, and I think your Justice Department is very important.

Correct?

Also, you know, it's a hell of a problem to get anybody else to confirm.

You'll have a damn can of worms.

Question, you also wrote this.

Client needs to be right.

Or shall we say, sure, client needs to be closer right than client.

Client needs cannot be confirmed.

And I said, Chuck, you're making a judgment statement, not a factual statement.

You don't know that he can be confirmed.

You just don't think he can be.

He thinks he can be.

He thinks a filibuster will die.

You think a filibuster will last forever.

You may be wrong.

Also, we've got to, we've got the first agenda to go to.

We clear out the first agenda.

We've got to pull the plug on it.

And pulling the plug on it could be done at any time.

It should only be done against, even Chuck gives this, against a provocation.

You don't have the provocation now.

You would have if the filibuster wasn't there, right?

And then you force it, close your boat, and lose it.

We're going to get back in two or three minutes.

You get Colston, and he's going to go out of town.

We're going to prepare to talk to Goldstein.

We're going to talk to Goldstein.

Do you think so?

There was lots of things, but those grew.

And he's extremely valuable to us.

He's worked like hell in this food thing.

He's been doing work in many fields where the ball's been dropped by others.

And God, we've just got to get him well.

It's like Henry.

It's the same thing.

Chuck has just got to be able to get him well.

He'll work.

Next week's not going to be hard for him.

And you'll talk, and I suggest you talk to Clark again, and then come in.

Well, you talk to the plaintiffs and work it out again.

And then you come in to Clark and tell him, say, look, this is the understanding we have.

We want to be sure that this is what you want.

How about doing it that way again?

How does that sound to you?

This is a good answer.

And I'll say exactly that.

I'll say we want everybody, I mean we know where the votes have to be done.

It's the responsibility of the treasurer.

But there are, incidentally, I think you ought to handle with him why I have to seek my peace alone.

How can you do that?

Well, I think that really already happened.

Yeah.

That I should be in it.

And I said, this was not a thing to deal with.

This was a matter of the President arriving at an understanding of Plunkett's, on how, what his views on the various alternatives that might come up.

And he doesn't feel anybody else should know.

And obviously, it was a, you know, this wasn't a local kind of thing.

Now, he said, yeah, but you've got to have these on the relationship.

I said, that's right.

Plunkett's great stuff.

Had to sit down with him.

Plunkett said, told him that.

I think he and Chuck, in a sense, kind of beat on each other, too, in that they both think Blankey's his mislead, as he and Mitchell, they thought Blankey's Mitchell and Martin.

Yeah.

As they did on the Chief Justice, or on the Supreme Court.

Right.

They could always be a giant on their right.

Can't decide they're wrong, just because their track record has some blood issues in it.

It has some successes to it.

What does it matter the fact they have?

We have better than them right here.

Look, I have an idea.

I'd like for you to get Clark in and say, look, I just want to tell you that there's absolutely no total confidence.

that people need to know what he's talking about.

Because you shouldn't know, and it's best that you not know.

Just put it to him that way.

As far as the other thing is concerned, we've got to play every shot in this tournament.

And you're going to be in charge of this vote here and so forth.

But can I say one thing?

I would like to keep Colson through a little bit further away than that.

I think, Bob, that they intend to get into trying to get a little bit too involved, you know what I mean, and get the White House too involved.

And it leaks.

Or if you don't agree with me, I don't think it leaks from there.

I think what does happen, though, is Colson pushes hard on people who don't like it, and then they say they're being, you know, that Colson is doing this and that.

Senator's doing it.

The charts point it out.

He doesn't do it.

Nobody does it.

Nobody else will get in and fight to get this stuff done.

I think Clark is better than Colson at this point.

That's what I mean.

And he's supposed to be getting the votes.

Isn't that really the difference?

You tell Clark that, and then bring in Walter Johnson, working with him, who is also, you know, supposed to be with him, so you've got no problem there.

Yeah.

And then you bring, you come in with Clark, and you say, now, bless him, you see him.

It's not a good idea.

You ought to talk to him about it this year.

Not this one.

You should make the old man the other.

I hope I get it before he calls.

He'll say, like, hey, fine, get right at it.

Oh, okay

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on ITT case and Richard Kleindienst

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

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Also recorded on March 30, 1972

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Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on ITT case and Richard Kleindienst

AI Summary

Audio

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on March 30, 1972

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Cite this conversation