Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 697 › Conversation 697-029

Nixon, Haldeman & Colson on ITT scandal and Labor unions

Thursday, March 30, 1972 · 12:47 PM–2:32 PM ET · Oval Office

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob"); Colson, Charles W.; Sanchez, ManoloConversation697-029 on Tape 697 (tape position 03:14:47–05:01:53)StartThursday, March 30, 1972 at 12:47 PMEndThursday, March 30, 1972 at 2:32 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 697-029 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon met with H. R. Haldeman and Charles Colson to discuss a wide range of political strategies, focusing heavily on managing the ongoing International Telephone and Telegraph (ITT) investigation, avoiding an anti-labor legislative trap, and finalizing the President's stance on busing and aid to parochial schools. Nixon emphasized the need for his staff to remain focused on key political issues—the cost of living, busing, and the Vietnam War—while insulating the White House from the fallout of the ITT hearings. The participants strategized on how to handle Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman James Eastland to bring the ITT investigation to a close, balancing the desire to end the hearings with the need to avoid appearing as if they are orchestrating a cover-up.

Audio

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This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 03:14:47 into the tape and ends around 05:01:53.

Transcript (AI-generated)

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3:15:44Yes, I, uh, I know where you are.
3:15:47I was trying to say that I just, uh, read the, uh, morning brief, and, uh, uh, as you said, Robert, at the point that I'm very much concerned by what I think is a breach of, uh, what was understood by the activity there, and I think you need to know that, uh, as far as I'm concerned, uh,
3:16:13the reaction must be swift and it's going to be
3:16:17uh very uh it has to be it's going to be protect and uh i i think that that has to be very clearly understood what i thought was
3:16:47Well, we're getting to the more important thing, purpose, etc.
3:17:09I thought to call him, and I checked back and said, I've got to get one of your offers in ten days, and I think you ought to take off three days.
3:17:20And this week, so...
3:17:25uh i don't know
3:17:42Well, you go wherever you want.
3:17:43My own feeling is you can get a plane to Florida if you want to do that.
3:17:46If you'd like to see or so forth, you might go to Florida.
3:17:50The difficulty with Florida that I see at this point is the hellish problem of reservations.
3:17:58If you want to, he's got a pussy.
3:18:00Yeah.
3:18:01But my point is that instead of like seeing Clark at all a couple of days, he's been burning a candle at both ends.
3:18:11Because our guys around here, see earlier this week Kissinger's taken off.
3:18:16And I don't think you've had two days off or three days off that I can remember in the last six months.
3:18:26I do hope you'll do that because you know my family and the rest, they count too.
3:18:34And the main thing, the only other thing is that we all got to be in shape for these big values to come.
3:18:40And, uh, in other words, we've got to allow them to value this thing in the 1980s.
3:18:48We're still close to it, and so forth.
3:18:52And there isn't a hell of a lot that we can really do about it right at this point.
3:18:57I mean, that's one of the good things about having a week off.
3:19:00I don't know what the hell Kennedy's screwing around.
3:19:03But it's on the way.
3:19:06What about if you want to do that?
3:19:07I was thinking, for example, if we might get off.
3:19:15Thank you.
3:19:25Go back and assess how many problems we have with this beyond this one.
3:19:29Just let him sit for a moment.
3:19:31Well, I know there are many things.
3:19:34Remember I talked to you about some sports where you've got too many problems.
3:19:39You remember I said, this is all a matter of time.
3:19:42This is all we will if we get some time.
3:19:45But all this time I've looked to the staff too, but many of them have been too overworked.
3:19:50It needs to really be a time to leave the public members and keeping our people in shape.
3:19:56We are, fortunately, our staff is relatively young and relatively healthy and relatively sober.
3:20:02On the other hand,
3:20:06I've seen people, not you, but there are others around my district who are ready to pop a piece.
3:20:14I'd say 50% better, because it's a wild one.
3:20:17Brown told me that he was going to give this back to me soon.
3:20:21Save his life.
3:20:22Really?
3:20:22Well, it's got a big difference.
3:20:24Henry goes out every week to see that.
3:20:26He works all day.
3:20:28He's living with problems all the time.
3:20:30He loves it.
3:20:31Sure.
3:20:31But what's the problem?
3:20:33Well, physically, the problem is not physically.
3:20:37The system will work on life.
3:20:39You've got to see.
3:20:41So that's solely the key.
3:20:43That's my safety.
3:20:45That's my warning, though.
3:20:46That's the key.
3:20:47That's the key.
3:20:47That's the key.
3:20:50But I think the trouble with all of us also, Mr. President, is that we're really more relaxed when we're accomplishing things than we are when we're sitting worrying.
3:21:01I went to Florida for
3:21:03Five days later in China than the first four days I was in, I just couldn't take it.
3:21:09I kept thinking about it.
3:21:10Why don't you go to Boston, or go back to your old home, and get around, maybe like a Christmas holiday, walk around and talk to folks.
3:21:23Get the view that isn't Washington, believe me.
3:21:25Like Tommy was saying to me a minute ago.
3:21:28He says, God damn it, let's just get out of this damn city.
3:21:31And he says, we're all going to lose this time.
3:21:33Wasn't that a very good movie when you guys did it?
3:21:36He says, yeah, it was a very, very good one.
3:21:38Now we're, well, there is, by just spending a little time on it, which I should have done earlier, we finally got him out there, charged him with an action.
3:21:48Then he made the moves, and he's placed the drugs so he didn't make the moves.
3:21:53I mean, there ain't nobody else that can do it.
3:21:56Butz couldn't make that move, so Conley could.
3:21:59Butz may make it this weekend because he's got a very unique forum.
3:22:03He and Hodgson are going on TV together, which will be expected to be a debate, but will not be.
3:22:10They're both going to take a very similar line with respect to the fact that the rising meat prices are more a responsibility of labor than a responsibility of power.
3:22:21As a matter of fact, isn't it the political issue?
3:22:23That means, that means what?
3:22:25are causing its food prices to fall.
3:22:27Oh, that's all right.
3:22:28That's a witness view of what's happening.
3:22:31The only problem is, Juset is one of the new unions for us.
3:22:35Juset is, couldn't be more wrong.
3:22:38That's Gorman Union, which has, the only fellow in here in Philadelphia, I'll tell you, who is here with me on Vietnam, consistently is Gorman.
3:22:46Wow.
3:22:46They are wild, I keep, wild revelations.
3:22:49Let me ask you this.
3:22:50What was the stomachache of that baby?
3:22:53At the dinner, or the singing?
3:22:55We invited four labor leaders, and she said not to show it, which is unreasonable, or maybe I don't know.
3:23:06I don't know.
3:23:06I mean, I would think that the labor leaders would invite a few more.
3:23:10I said some of the stuff that they had, the construction trade, you said, you know, this is going to be centralized.
3:23:15I don't know who it was.
3:23:17I don't remember.
3:23:18I didn't wonder if it was a boycott.
3:23:25The ones we invited are friends.
3:23:26They may have been afraid to come because they're AFL-CIO.
3:23:30We invited building graders to do things, yeah.
3:23:34But those are AFL-CIO too.
3:23:36That's what it means.
3:23:37They may have been afraid to come.
3:23:40They may have been afraid to come.
3:23:43That wouldn't be the reason, Mr. President, because we had five of them at your church service on Sunday.
3:23:47We had Joe Power.
3:23:49Yes, I know.
3:23:50They were very proud.
3:23:51And they were all AFL-CIO.
3:23:53So I think it's...
3:23:54it's it's more likely that but for some reason i couldn't i don't remember no because if that were the case i know it would have come to the church service last sunday and we had a
3:24:24of a picture now we had five four or five building trades presence the craft presence and in fact we didn't i don't think we got a turn down from a labor development yes he said he wanted to and i said i don't think he has to i mean i don't think he cares
3:24:53I just wonder if that isn't really going to cut in.
3:25:00You see, Hodgson's got a position, Schultz is a farmer, secretary of labor.
3:25:05Is there some reason why, you know, if you think this is what we want to talk about, I'll talk a little more frankly with Dishy and me.
3:25:11I mean, or whatever we're going to talk about.
3:25:16He's got a very good relationship with us.
3:25:18I just want to be sure.
3:25:21Don't ever have anybody come to a meeting with a guy like that.
3:25:24It's going to make him uncomfortable.
3:25:27It's pretty hard to restrict this one.
3:25:31He calls it just the way he sees it.
3:25:34Is it great?
3:25:35Yes.
3:25:36Not with us.
3:25:37Not with him.
3:25:39It's all right with us, but it's not what it is with Schultz or me.
3:25:41All right.
3:25:42Well, I know that's good with you.
3:25:45So I was wondering if we were... No, we'd be all right.
3:25:49And he'll talk freely.
3:25:50Schultz and I have had lunch with him a couple of times together, and he's talked awfully freely.
3:25:55Well, that's fine.
3:25:56Schultz is an extra in this field, and Schultz is probably going to have to...
3:26:02Well, he's more intimate with the nuances of the West Coast travel than I am.
3:26:10Well, I've got that pretty cool.
3:26:12We're all right on that.
3:26:13The paperwork doesn't really have jurisdiction over this, does it?
3:26:19By the roll of the dice, the way in which Fitz set up his contract year, completely the roll of the dice, he gets two races in one calendar year, but it's two teamship contract years.
3:26:30So the play board is even from his race, his way above the guidelines.
3:26:37It's spread out over two years, he said.
3:26:41But the relationship between Fitz and the West Coast is terrible, too.
3:26:46So long as he continues to tell Bridges to go to hell, which he is doing, Bridges may not be able to, couldn't sustain it, sir.
3:26:57So Fitz is a very key guy to us in that, and Schultz understands the beginner's nuances of that paradigm.
3:27:08Schultz, Conley, and I have talked about that, and we believe, Mr. President, that it is best to use only occasions when he provokes it.
3:27:21The Price Commission members did a beautiful job.
3:27:26I believe, watching the television, that he came off distinctly second best in his confrontation with the Price Commission.
3:27:34He looked, he looked boorish and arrogant and public behaved.
3:27:38He said, he, he, he answered one question at a time.
3:27:41He had a problem with that matzo bowl.
3:27:43He had a problem with that matzo bowl.
3:27:48Four months ago, three matzo bowls and four matzo bowls.
3:27:51I think that's disgusting.
3:27:54Well, he was all right till the morning.
3:27:56You know, that's Jews cheating Jews.
3:27:58Now, who the hell cares?
3:28:00The Jews are getting cheated.
3:28:03Max was bald.
3:28:04It's true.
3:28:05Of course it is.
3:28:06It's a religious business, good God.
3:28:08They can't police themselves.
3:28:10I couldn't care less if a waiter goes off to the wrong side.
3:28:15I told him to go to hell.
3:28:22My God, three mounds of balsam.
3:28:24They only have four mounds of balsam here.
3:28:27So what the hell?
3:28:28Who makes mounds of balsam?
3:28:30Well, we got one of them.
3:28:33Sure, you know, that's pretty much it.
3:28:36But see, that's a, that's been going on for so long, everybody knows we don't get a big candy bar anymore.
3:28:46he was on the right tack when he was talking about food prices but he overdid it when he got in questioning and three of the networks carried it one of them carried it in a way that did a real disservice to him by clipping off his reply at a point that this made him look like an absolute jackass when in effect he said i don't care
3:29:07I mean, I don't care what you do.
3:29:08I don't give a damn.
3:29:09I don't give a damn.
3:29:10This isn't my problem.
3:29:11This is yours.
3:29:11Did that go on?
3:29:12Yes, sir.
3:29:13All through.
3:29:14But then he had a chance on two of them to kind of bring it back into focus.
3:29:17But the third time, it got him off at that point.
3:29:20Well, one of the senators.
3:29:21And it was devastating.
3:29:22One of the first senators.
3:29:23One of the commissioners said that you may not give a damn.
3:29:26but the public does.
3:29:28But the point I was making was that Conway Schultz and I believe that
3:29:45We should take an opportunity like that.
3:29:47Grayson should crack them.
3:29:50But that's what I mean.
3:29:50What do you tell the members of the House and the Senate and all the other cons that are out there?
3:29:56They ought to know.
3:29:57I suppose none of them I trust are going to be tempted about this thing.
3:30:00Oh, no.
3:30:01This is a great issue for us.
3:30:02That's correct.
3:30:03We do have a major problem, which I wanted to ask you about.
3:30:09Big business is mobilizing now and is about to launch a major legislative effort this year.
3:30:15The Kerr Union?
3:30:16The Kerr Union.
3:30:17That's stupid.
3:30:17That's the truth.
3:30:18It's Roger Lowe.
3:30:19No, it's part of Roger Lowe and Bush, and it's now joined in by Archibald from the chamber and by the NAM votes, and they're... Well, it then includes various attempts at a snowball in hell to get any labor legislation through this Congress.
3:30:34Now, in fact, this Congress isn't even under the Buster legislation, true?
3:30:38What they want to do is get the issue into the debate this year.
3:30:42And from our standpoint, I think it is catastrophic, because it sustains getting the right to work on a state ballot.
3:30:48And this is what happened in 1958.
3:30:51You just put that on a ballot, and you are going to mobilize... Oh, they have a... Now they've allocated half a million dollars for openness to start an advertising campaign.
3:31:04Uh...
3:31:05come in with 22 proposals for restricting... Well, how many in our test camp won't be one that's not open?
3:31:11That's just, that's the opening.
3:31:13But the thing is, the thing is that, uh, what should the judge, what do you think we ought to do?
3:31:18Oh, I want to, I learned about it, and I heard about it Monday, and I confirmed it yesterday.
3:31:23I want to launch, uh, whatever resources we have with the business community to say, way off, bring it up.
3:31:32If you want to bring it up next year, great.
3:31:34But to do it in the first round of election year, you're simply going to galvanize the labor vote, turn them out in droves.
3:31:40Yeah, you are going to be able to defeat members of Congress.
3:31:44Well, you could defeat a Jerry Ford.
3:31:46That's right.
3:31:47You're going to don't mow, don't stir up the labor vote.
3:31:51The idea is you've got to don't stir up the labor vote this year.
3:31:55You only hurt your friends as you did in 1958.
3:31:58Now, God damn it, they've got to get that through their cotton-picking heads.
3:32:02Well, just let us let them in, get as many people as we can in that Congress, and then we'll come in when we're ready for a labor thing.
3:32:11I've been... Who is it?
3:32:12Some lawyer down there?
3:32:14Well, it started with Fred Borch, basically.
3:32:16Fred is a nice guy.
3:32:17He's made sense.
3:32:20Fred Borch... Schultz talked to Borch.
3:32:23He was talking about something else, and he raised this to Schultz's footer board, and...
3:32:30He evaluates for just not being a nice guy.
3:32:34Ronald, son of a bet you, has only one interest in the world, which is General Electric.
3:32:39Well, I...
3:33:07Connolly and I complete a course.
3:33:09Does Connolly agree with this?
3:33:10And then he's the one to tell.
3:33:13I think that if between Connolly, Flanagan, Schultz, and I. .
3:33:16.
3:33:16.
3:33:16.
3:33:16.
3:33:16.
3:33:16.
3:33:16.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17.
3:33:17. .
3:33:37And if Connolly tells him, you've got to keep planning out, he's wonderful, except you do know, right now, let's not have him in a position where he's in anything where that businessman, those sons of bitches who go out and say, Peter, plan it, and the whole White House called them.
3:33:54You know, we've got to remember that he is somewhat in a position, in a curious way, that Adams was for the wrong reasons, of course.
3:34:03The fact that, ironically, he's attacked for being a friend of the business.
3:34:11You and I know that Pete Flanagan is the anatomy of most of the business, then, because he took some hard ones and handled them right.
3:34:19Remember the oil man?
3:34:21Everybody's squealing about Pete Flanagan.
3:34:23Damn right.
3:34:24Jesus Christ, Pete Flanagan has a hell of a business.
3:34:27Our little problem is what we did with his clients.
3:34:30Clients are a little racist, and we were racist.
3:34:34Now, I think it's much better, and I think you have a hell of a lot more influence than Congress can take.
3:34:41I think you can take it, too.
3:34:42You can do it, because you can put it on straight blood for toleration.
3:34:48Well, I think also Ford and some of the House members could get into this force and help.
3:34:53Would they?
3:34:54Oh, my God.
3:34:54I think they would both be...
3:34:59Why do these guys want to put everybody on the spot and pull over against such legislation?
3:35:04They think that they've got labor where they want them now because of this mean walkout and everything.
3:35:08They think this is a godsend opportunity.
3:35:10So the laborers made a mistake and they've got to strike while the engine's on.
3:35:14Well, they don't want to strike while it's on.
3:35:15Strike later.
3:35:16Well, it's bad.
3:35:18It's in bad public favor that they've got a presidential campaign, which is a way to escalate the issue and be heard where they wouldn't be heard.
3:35:27Yeah, I'm not...
3:35:28It's a typical, naive business.
3:35:31The way they go at it, you know, they screw it up every time.
3:35:36They've read the ORC poll, which says the labor is very, very small.
3:35:43And they also see, you know, us being now aggressively attacking me.
3:35:49And so they just think we've got to...
3:35:53The pendulum has swung for the first time in 20 years.
3:35:55I love the moment.
3:35:57They've got to rerun.
3:35:58I was here as the elect on the eve of Congress.
3:36:01I can tell you, Chuck, I know the guys that were elected in that Congress.
3:36:05I can't name one that was elected running on an anti-Labor platform.
3:36:11I can name two-thirds of that Congress that voted to override Truman's veto in the toughest anti-Labor bill that's ever been passed, particularly anti-Labor.
3:36:22Now, how did it all happen?
3:36:24We got in on other issues.
3:36:26Had or not, meat prices, communism, and the rest.
3:36:29You remember?
3:36:30Yeah, sure do.
3:36:31These crazy guys, you don't know.
3:36:32The way that, like, labor is fighting, they don't fight in front of them.
3:36:36You don't get an entertainment division and then fight it in the left.
3:36:39Well, the biggest thing, the biggest argument of all is that labor is so fractured right now that they will not mobilize unless we mobilize them.
3:36:48And we can mobilize them if we're not, we can keep them apathetic and pick off groups for ourselves.
3:36:56Yesterday I started to turn it off and George suggested that I ask you first to be sure you agree.
3:37:03I couldn't imagine you not agreeing.
3:37:07Well, I just can't imagine them being so damn stupid.
3:37:09That's all.
3:37:10They can't.
3:37:11Yeah, yeah, I can't.
3:37:13I can't.
3:37:13It's not exactly what you'd expect.
3:37:14I expect, or I guess suggest, that Connelly would admit three or four thousand votes.
3:37:18Yes, sir.
3:37:19And say that it's not in our interest.
3:37:21Look, folks, we know exactly what we're doing.
3:37:23But we've got some legislation here.
3:37:25For example, if they never brought Tom Schrader, we'll pass that damn Tom Bill.
3:37:30You know what I'm saying?
3:37:31Right, sir.
3:37:31And that'll be the beginning.
3:37:33That's the way to fight these bastards.
3:37:35Well, that's the biggest...
3:37:36put in the door that business would have ever had.
3:37:39It's an urgency, you know.
3:37:42You've got to keep quiet.
3:37:44I will, or you're not going to get that.
3:37:50We'll crank up to that one.
3:37:51How about the house?
3:37:53Well, the ringer said he thought he'd done a good job with the house members.
3:37:58Yes.
3:37:58His reports back from that were very good.
3:38:00And the
3:38:02The Detroit case, in a sense, is a break for us because it demonstrates the need for legislation.
3:38:10Who are supposed to be turned the other way.
3:38:13That's the number one.
3:38:16That's what Bob Griffin says on it.
3:38:32It sure as hell would indicate that from the way that... No, I don't believe so.
3:38:41The Detroit News is.
3:38:43Provost?
3:38:44Provost.
3:38:44The pre-first is not.
3:38:46I'm curious as far as he...
3:38:49I got it.
3:38:50I got it with Griffin.
3:38:51Martin Hayden has three friends, you see, at night, at night in Miami.
3:38:57You know, they've got that old type of Jewish group.
3:38:59I think it's that.
3:39:00It is.
3:39:00Yes, it is.
3:39:01It's Martin Hayden who has been beating the drums on Griffin's Constitutional Order.
3:39:12Would you think that's where you're going with Washington?
3:39:15Well, no, we're not.
3:39:18My opinion of this issue is that the prime importance is to get to the affected communities and let them realize that our bill is the answer.
3:39:29And that will slowly feed back.
3:39:34And while we're doing it, it's
3:39:37It's tough to cover it as fast as we would like because there are only a few people that can really do this well.
3:39:41Well, let me say to you, we don't have to cover it as fast as all that either.
3:39:45No.
3:39:45The main thing is to get it covered before November.
3:39:48That's right.
3:39:48The other thing is to get the Democratic candidate on the other side, which she will be.
3:39:53Right.
3:39:54They're stuck now.
3:39:55Except for Jackson.
3:39:56Except for Jackson.
3:39:58Right.
3:39:59The other thing is to get that damn hard moratorium in some way passed.
3:40:06That's right.
3:40:06And to make the Democratic congressmen and senators move up or down.
3:40:11Would you agree on that as a tactic?
3:40:13Providing it doesn't come so fast that the court tests don't come before November.
3:40:17Shit, it won't.
3:40:19I don't think the moratorium has ever been true until probably back to the Democratic Convention.
3:40:24That'll please me just right, because that hopefully will keep our court from having to rule on it before November.
3:40:31The worst... Tell me, do you think they might approve?
3:40:34Well, it is procedurally possible to get it to the full term and get it on a priority basis.
3:40:43And that's why... Well, whether you want it passed, let's get this worked out, because we should be pressing some right now.
3:40:49I would like to see the moratorium...
3:40:51I'd like to see the moratorium passed any time after July 15th.
3:40:54So if you could...
3:40:56If you...
3:40:57Even on an injunctive proceeding... Well, then at the price of time, if you know of ever trying to get rid of the emergency... Let's hear it.
3:41:05I've read this with my two friends, and I think he agreed with me.
3:41:08He said that if it passed...
3:41:12say, before Jim first, you could get to the lower courts fast enough so that the Supreme Court conceivably could be confronted.
3:41:21He heard of the, you can go directly to the Supreme Court on a constitutional question.
3:41:27You see, we can't, I'm afraid we can't, Bob, because we're going to look like we won't.
3:41:36Well, you can hang it up in the lower courts, but that's the only place you can get your delays, kind of.
3:41:43And if they don't start proceedings in a lower court until mid-summer, you are right, because the length of time that it would take to get to the appeal of the Supreme Court would probably take you past November.
3:41:58The other thing is, if you claim to the July 15th delay, you run the risk of losing it.
3:42:05In the Congress.
3:42:06Oh, yeah.
3:42:06That's very true.
3:42:08The cleanest way is to get it to an housing act, if you...
3:42:12If we can, but that almost assures a court test before the election.
3:42:16And I just don't know how our court will rule.
3:42:18I know that Rehnquist has to slow up on himself.
3:42:21He has to.
3:42:23Well, in all, I think he would...
3:42:26But that ultimately has to be proven.
3:42:28Yeah.
3:42:29For Christ's sakes.
3:42:30What does that prove?
3:42:32Well, he wrote an opinion that you had to have a constitutional amendment.
3:42:35By implication, his opinion was...
3:42:39You couldn't do it any other way other than through the Constitution.
3:42:42That puts him in a very difficult position to rule our way.
3:42:46Well, it does work that way in our court, but as Randquist has been disqualified himself, we haven't lost everything.
3:42:53We've just come out with a constitutional amendment.
3:42:55That's right.
3:42:56And let the Democratic candidate be against it.
3:42:59That's right.
3:42:59Just pull right in front of you and I and tell you we're going to fight this battle.
3:43:02We're going to fight it after those clowns braided around the White House here the other day.
3:43:06Jesus Christ, wasn't that a horrible thing?
3:43:09What do you think of that?
3:43:12Yes.
3:43:12It was all right.
3:43:14You're...
3:43:15You're also, all right, Mr. President, if Rehnquist disqualifies himself, you're providing some of our appointees both our way.
3:43:24That's another thing.
3:43:25Because then they realize that we wouldn't want to give it back.
3:43:28If we had an absolute fix on it.
3:43:30I don't know what Powell would want.
3:43:31I don't know what Berg would want.
3:43:34Berg is the one I care about.
3:43:37Powell, I think, would be.
3:43:41How are you doing?
3:43:42Paul might not have met over at Baxter's to prove that he's not racist.
3:43:46You know what I mean?
3:43:48I still think he likes to get on the rich.
3:43:50In that particular case.
3:43:57Who's the integrationist?
3:43:59Oh, I know, but he's part of that.
3:44:00Part of the establishment.
3:44:04Yeah, sure as hell is.
3:44:05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:44:07It's a great, I mean, you can argue that constitutionality that either way, it's,
3:44:14i would imagine that a cow or a request probably not so much burger would realize the implications if they turn it down
3:44:31Well, the point I would make, Mr. President, is that the President has an obligation to do that, to go to the Supreme Court before he can seek to amend the Constitution.
3:44:51Remember, this comes back to Scanlon's analogy with the income tax.
3:44:54He wasn't sure he was historically correct, and I haven't checked it yet.
3:44:58But it's the duty to try to do it within the framework of the Constitution.
3:45:02If that goes where it can, if that fails, then you seek to amend it.
3:45:05That goes so that the Constitution will not allow it.
3:45:08that you must try.
3:45:10Having so tried and failed, then we must demand the Constitution to have the public will reflected.
3:45:17I think the public will in those districts that are involved is overwhelming the land.
3:45:23I noticed that, did you notice that Buffalo came to that situation the other day?
3:45:27I knew something.
3:45:29Christ, they're reasonably hell up there about something.
3:45:32Boston, my God.
3:45:33But Boston is wide.
3:45:34It's 3%, but the idea of busting is just to get the whole goddamn city up in arms, particularly the Irish capital, Canada.
3:45:47Really?
3:45:47Yeah.
3:45:47Well, they've got to take the Irish guys.
3:45:49They're our leader.
3:45:50We're not going to put that on you.
3:45:52We're not going to.
3:45:54I don't know.
3:45:55I've got no idea.
3:45:57We have to decide.
3:45:57Somebody's got to give speech.
3:46:02Oh, the NCEA?
3:46:04Yeah.
3:46:07Is Cole working on questions?
3:46:10Yeah.
3:46:12Whether we can be ready to, I don't know what to say out there, but I've got to know whether we should drop the issue.
3:46:21Let me start at 1230 in Schultz's office.
3:46:24I wish to admit it.
3:46:26Oh, when was that at?
3:46:28But it's a little late.
3:46:29My view is to prevail on this one.
3:46:32Well, it's awful easy right now because the whole stage is set and Conley's on board and we've got a vehicle in a bill that Mills has already filed.
3:46:44And what's it cost?
3:46:46I think, Mr. President, it's a billion four or a billion...
3:46:53Our plant was $1.4 billion, and I think the mill still is either $1.4 billion or $1.7 billion, but they're not running.
3:46:59I suppose the only argument against your department is the argument that one hundred percent.
3:47:07One hundred percent.
3:47:08Well, you have a whole problem.
3:47:10He's the person that does it.
3:47:12I'm for it because I'm for Catholic schools, period.
3:47:14That's the difference.
3:47:31And I'm not just for political reasons.
3:47:33I don't think the public school system is worth a good god damn.
3:47:36I don't think the Catholic school system is worth a good god damn, except at least they've got some religion in it.
3:47:41It's class-minded.
3:47:42It's class-minded.
3:47:44Well, the point is that there needs to be some religion someplace in this country.
3:47:48Well, this is just religion.
3:47:49It's discipline, too.
3:47:50Catholic schools tend to be better-run schools.
3:47:53Well, they make the little bastards, you know, shave off a bit.
3:47:57Where do you go for it?
3:47:58Yeah.
3:47:59And I just feel here I was strongly about this.
3:48:01You see, I am basically extremely concerned about this whole issue.
3:48:05I always have been, and I'm going to be able to hold down that domestic counsel stand where I have several times.
3:48:10Well, you have, you have right now, Mr. President, a position that Flanagan, myself, Connolly, agreed in, Schultz has made up his mind, and your domestic counsel opposed it.
3:48:26The best argument of all for it, in cold, raw, hard political terms, is that there are five million Capra families who have children in parochial schools.
3:48:52would get a direct benefit of three to four hundred well it's partially that especially the percentage of the catholic community
3:49:21that have children in parochial schools is relatively small in terms of the whole Catholic community.
3:49:27I see.
3:49:28And on the other hand, .
3:49:30So that's not, that shows the rest of the Catholic community.
3:49:34But the Catholic isn't a small percentage of the Catholic community.
3:49:39It's like 20%.
3:49:40Yeah.
3:49:4020.
3:49:41See, the Catholics are about 30%.
3:49:45There aren't 25% of the Catholic community.
3:49:48Well, I think there would be.
3:49:50If you think about it, 30% of this country is Catholic.
3:49:54That 30% up to 200 million, that's 60 million people.
3:49:5960 million people, and that's 20 million families.
3:50:02Catholic families.
3:50:06Well, you have a credibility issue also, because they said you were going to do it.
3:50:29Before, you could fend it off, but now you have a report from the non-public panel, which is a beautiful report, contributed to by constitutional lawyers, eminent constitutional lawyers, and you have a bill in the Congress that we're going to have to say yea or nay to, so it isn't as if you had to initiate something.
3:50:50The Mills bill puts us in the position of having to commit, and having said what you did in August,
3:50:56And now we need to commit, yes or no, it's a very tough job.
3:51:01One of the other things, and I guess the one, the only one that really is capable of writing this feature is as much as you can.
3:51:08But it's, I think, an ideal place to...
3:51:12to kick that Population Commission in the ass.
3:51:15I noticed this morning that a big bunch of them started to take off on urging the President to adopt his recommendations.
3:51:23Well, I'm not going to do it.
3:51:24I'm not going to do it.
3:51:26I may be wrong in deciding.
3:51:28Probably, I suppose, the Michigan majority.
3:51:30Strangely enough, let me put it this way.
3:51:34The majority of people in Colorado voted for abortion.
3:51:38I think the majority of people in Michigan voted for abortion.
3:51:42I think in both cases, while certainly in Michigan they will vote for it because they think that what's going to be aborted generally are the little black bastards.
3:51:50Now, the point that I make, however, on all of this is more fundamental.
3:51:55Those that vote for abortion, except for a few fanatical lips, are not going to vote
3:52:05for Nixon because he comes out for abortion.
3:52:11Those who are against abortion, however, feel so strongly about it from a moral standpoint that they sure as hell will vote against Nixon because of that issue.
3:52:23Is that a proper analysis?
3:52:24We're going to have to vote for Nixon.
3:52:27But what I'm getting at is that I'm speaking and following up the line that, again, our domestic counsel will recommend signed abortion.
3:52:33I'm against it.
3:52:35I'm against it as a, well, frankly, I just don't believe in screwing around.
3:52:41I couldn't agree with you more.
3:52:43Politically and on the merits, the people that are pushing for zero population growth, like the Sierra Club and others,
3:52:54are never going to be perfect.
3:52:56The people who are offended by abortion can be one of them.
3:53:19They're all asking me why they're supposed to read it.
3:53:21Because they ought to get their damn philosophy straight.
3:53:24Get me a copy in here, too.
3:53:28I've got to send one to, uh...
3:53:29I want you to send one to John Collins.
3:53:34I already did.
3:53:36He was on the notes.
3:53:37He was on the notes.
3:53:41Well, you have a nice group of people.
3:53:45But maybe we can't do that thing on Monday.
3:53:47That's not true.
3:53:48We might have to do it.
3:53:49Maybe we will.
3:53:50So we're waiting to hear.
3:53:51Shut it off for Tuesday, maybe.
3:53:53We can do it on Tuesday.
3:53:54We don't have to do it on Monday.
3:53:56We can do it any day of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or anything.
3:54:00But now we can't do it Thursday.
3:54:02Thursday, where I know it's on the sales account.
3:54:06How many first air ones?
3:54:07Absolutely.
3:54:08One hundred.
3:54:11Well, you could do it Tuesday or Wednesday, if you don't do it Monday.
3:54:15Monday would be better, in a way, you could go right to Camp David over there.
3:54:19Yeah.
3:54:20Which would be good.
3:54:20Yeah.
3:54:23Could be, if we could get it ready.
3:54:26But it isn't essential.
3:54:28We should go to Camp David over there, I mean, it's a matter of time.
3:54:33No, but it's a little closer, that's the way to say it, Camp David and Saturday or Monday morning.
3:54:38No, it would be easier to go over there.
3:54:40Actually, that audience, that group I know well, we had them in there one day when we started this whole thing on Catholic education.
3:54:50They will tend to be much more responsive to the aid to parochial school issues than the abortion issue.
3:54:58These are professional Catholic educators which
3:55:02I think you know there's an old Roosevelt analogy here.
3:55:04You've got 15,000
3:55:27people who would be screaming Nixon zealots if you ever gave them your aid to parochial school decision there.
3:55:40Boy, that wouldn't stop, and I go back to all parts of the country.
3:55:44Now, it's pretty blatant, and that's the argument against it, but so was San Diego, and it was one of the best things that he could have done when he went to that shipyard.
3:55:56the people who will oppose your position will scream at you just as loudly
3:56:22Whether you make it quietly here or whether you make it with a hell of a...
3:56:25The reaction up there would be to send that whole place...
3:56:27I mean, they'll make the Knights of Columbus look... look weak.
3:56:31I can't tell.
3:56:34But I...
3:56:35If we can get it ready, that's where I want to go.
3:56:37I mean, that's my view.
3:56:39This is all the rule of God and the rest of the Council, so that might bother them.
3:56:43Some of the things I don't believe in, God damn it, I've got to do something I believe in once in a while.
3:56:49That damned H.R. 1.
3:56:54But you have Mitchell and Conway also with you on this issue.
3:56:58Mitchell?
3:57:00I talked to him.
3:57:00The last time I talked to him, you were strong with him.
3:57:05Conway?
3:57:06Yes, sir.
3:57:08It was a big switch for Mitchell because he was against it before, but the last time I discussed it with him, which was three months ago, he was pushing hard for it.
3:57:26I'm in the United States.
3:57:28I'm in the United States.
3:57:29I'm in the United States.
4:14:45Well, we'll do that next week, Chuck, in terms of the, uh, news thing.
4:14:48I think if we get the Catholic thing ready, I'll just go over it on Monday, okay?
4:14:52Because if we can't do it, we'll do it Tuesday.
4:14:54And I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be late, so I'll have to do it.
4:14:58If I was political, I was bussing.
4:14:59And everybody said I was political, right?
4:15:02All right, that's too goddamn bad.
4:15:05uh they say you're politically in the arts and that doesn't cost you any support i mean people who like your position it may cost you support but great prices you know
4:15:22the image of the president as a fine leader in the noose of man never gets in any fights not if you're saying what you believe well god never i believe this hey never go down there see the other side i said only one thing about that trip that laid on through the first year we may be in the middle of a very strong offensive at that time
4:15:45Because I think it's begun now.
4:15:47And we, we, we, we, of course, have been unwanted all over the country because we want to, we've got to go out in September.
4:15:54But there may be a very good offensive in the high quarter and so forth.
4:15:59But I don't think it's, that America's going to be lost.
4:16:03No, our casualties will not go out.
4:16:05But we'll be bombing how long?
4:16:07Does that bother you?
4:16:08No, you're still, you're still bringing the boys home.
4:16:10It's just like that place.
4:16:12It's a good...
4:16:14Good juxtaposition to be in.
4:16:16And then my thought, Chuck, was to do the press conference the following week.
4:16:20You see, this week, I don't want to do anything in terms of a press conference, which, well, the leading ITT, which we already discussed, too, I don't want to do any press conference that takes away from the aftermath of the Wisconsin thing.
4:16:35Don't you think that that's a good story for us to have run through a little while?
4:16:39You see my point?
4:16:41I mean, Wisconsin is not like that.
4:16:44And let the Democrat commentators talk about Wisconsin for a couple of minutes.
4:16:47With what it's done to the Democrats.
4:16:49Well, that's what I mean.
4:16:50Who's going to be the Democratic nominee?
4:16:52Just like after Florida.
4:16:54Let them talk about that.
4:16:56yeah that'll play that'll play for a couple of days but i think that on this case that i think i want to stick it off yeah
4:17:22That's a good time.
4:17:23Maybe the IT team will be behind us.
4:17:26I don't know.
4:17:28On that, the main thing is that you talked to Chuck Toad, and Chuck talked about your conversations with, uh, and it has, uh, like he's talking to Easton today, and I don't hear back, so I don't know.
4:17:39You don't know what, what is, what he's gonna say.
4:17:42If you want to double-check him, just be damn sure that he's not misleading us all the time.
4:17:48Yeah.
4:17:53One thing I want to do is to get it.
4:18:01I'm telling Bob this morning.
4:18:03I think I should step back a little bit.
4:18:06I've been deeply, you know, I mean, as I should have been involved, but without telling you what is involved, I don't think you should know.
4:18:16I have a talent set up that I can do what needs to be done.
4:18:22Do you understand what I mean?
4:18:23Yes, sir.
4:18:23Now, one thing you have to understand, as always, is that
4:18:37For the play to work that I have in mind, I have my delusions about what I think will happen.
4:18:45But I could be wrong.
4:18:46We could all be wrong.
4:18:47I don't think so.
4:18:49But I have my delusions right now.
4:18:50But for the play to work, we must all prepare for the next two free weeks to be made as much of an effort as possible
4:19:06We must appear to be doing that.
4:19:13If we do not appear to be doing that, we're going to have a hell of a problem.
4:19:22not only in terms of not solving the ITD case, because Clandy's getting out of it, don't worry.
4:19:29Teddy will find other ways to keep the gunman alive.
4:19:32It'll help something.
4:19:34But the other problem is, the other problem is that we have the worst of both worlds.
4:19:39In other words, the Clandy's problem, Chuck, cannot be solved.
4:19:45I've done a lot of thinking about it since all of us have talked.
4:19:48And you remember, I was the one that raised the point
4:19:52in this office, and I said, why not fight the bullet now?
4:19:56Why not make a name for it?
4:19:57We all have to act.
4:19:58And I, the rest of you were right when you said, no, you've got to have a provocation.
4:20:03The reason you've got to have a provocation is not, incidentally, so much in my view, that the public will say that's an invasion of guilt that withdraws me.
4:20:14They're going to say that anyway.
4:20:16But the reason is much more fundamental.
4:20:17The Clintons have got friends.
4:20:21You've got the Mitchell problem, you've got the Easton problem, and you have the Clintons problem.
4:20:26You've got people around the country that say, what the hell?
4:20:30Now, whenever anything happens here, Judge, it's got to be done in such a way that they are on board.
4:20:38You know what I mean?
4:20:39Quincy's got to be on board.
4:20:41I said that Mitchell's got to be on board.
4:20:43And Easton's got to be on board for another reason.
4:20:47Because you're never going to get anybody else confirmed unless he's on board.
4:20:50That's correct.
4:20:51You may not be able to get confirmed anyway.
4:20:54That I get.
4:20:54And of course, I hear Barry taking their problems too.
4:20:57It's just too goddamn bad.
4:20:59I suppose if Clint East had been able to withdraw us, is there any way we could handle this damn thing without sending another man?
4:21:06No.
4:21:07I guess we've got to make an effort to get another man, don't you think?
4:21:11I'm sure.
4:21:12You'd have no choice, Simon.
4:21:13I think if Clint East goes down...
4:21:17Well, I'd love them to turn down the second name if the guy was completely clean.
4:21:25Well, not as good as I became.
4:21:27But who's completely clean?
4:21:35No, but what I meant is, it has nothing to do with this case.
4:21:38That's right.
4:21:39That's the main thing.
4:21:40Had nothing to do with it.
4:21:41Had nothing to do with it.
4:21:42Had nothing to do with it.
4:21:42Had nothing to do with it.
4:21:43It would be Justice Department, period.
4:21:45Yeah.
4:21:45So then if it turned out that way, I don't know.
4:21:47Then he'd get a hell of a... Then the issue could be in the way.
4:21:50They won't be that...
4:21:51They wouldn't be that stupid.
4:21:53Now...
4:21:54the game we have to play between now and the next, and I won't be talking any more about it.
4:22:00You take your day, so I forget it.
4:22:02You forget it.
4:22:03What I want you to do, what I want to do, is that I want you
4:22:08to concentrate your efforts and your staff's efforts and so forth on the three big issues.
4:22:15In other words, one issue is the cost of living, the second, food prices and cost of living.
4:22:21The second issue is the issue of
4:22:26We've already discussed the bussing.
4:22:28The bussing, well, meaning is related to what the president said, meaning I put as a separate issue, meaning bussing.
4:22:36And then the other thing, of course, is our greatest strength, which we are not playing back with, and that is next in the man piece.
4:22:43That's the enormous punch.
4:22:45Those four issues are what we all employ, and so it runs out of the copy-picking ears.
4:22:51As long as I have noted my thought,
4:22:55and you were building your car.
4:22:58McGregor's a big chemical fish.
4:23:00McGregor's sold jobs to get this goddamn thing through.
4:23:06And he's got a purity truck.
4:23:09But I think up to this point, the role we have all played has been wrong.
4:23:16It would have been very much in our interest
4:23:18to discredit the whole thing.
4:23:21And incidentally, I don't want, I don't think you should be discouraged about what you accomplished.
4:23:27You know, when you were saying that we should have cut it off two weeks ago, I'm sure.
4:23:33As a matter of fact, the developments of the last two weeks
4:23:37Sure, you've got the $600,000 and the White House and the rest, but also you've got Dita Beard's, you know, testimony.
4:23:46You've got the denials.
4:23:49You've got the typewriter thing.
4:23:52In other words, I think a cloud of confusion
4:23:57has to a certain extent been raised about this case.
4:24:01I don't think we've been heard the last two weeks.
4:24:05We haven't been heard this week, really.
4:24:07I don't know about last week.
4:24:09This week we have not been heard.
4:24:10Interestingly, as a matter of fact, I think the media in the last three days has been less anti-administration.
4:24:22Is that right?
4:24:23Well, I've watched it.
4:24:24It's beginning to change.
4:24:25Walters is a star who's been just
4:24:28yesterday's piece was quite balanced.
4:24:30This morning's piece in the Times was a very balanced piece and went into the authenticity of the memo in depth of how Macron and Teitel had found this.
4:24:40Yes, sir.
4:24:42Well, they delivered the report of the Macron and Teitel committee.
4:24:47The report got progressively stronger as the week went on.
4:24:51And as of yesterday, both Macron and Teitel's report said it was tight in January.
4:24:57They did?
4:24:58Yes.
4:24:59And the Times is one, and Graham has been hostile.
4:25:04His piece was relatively balanced and didn't mention any conflict with the FBI, but anybody reading it would have some doubts about that.
4:25:11The TV has changed.
4:25:12Ruskell last night got more time than Tunney, and he was more effective, and they used the best portion of what Ruskell said.
4:25:22That's the first time that's happened.
4:25:23The night before, Tuesday night,
4:25:26We got Scott on one of the three networks, and no anti-IDP stuff, anti-administrative stuff, on any of the networks.
4:25:34Monday night, we began to get a break on one of the networks that Scott announced his press conference, and that was ABC.
4:25:42Yeah, ABC.
4:25:43So there has been an evolution, Mr. President, that last week they were just dumping on us, just everything that's happening.
4:25:50We're beginning to get a little bit...
4:25:52When I spoke the last two times, I had many times to pretend to get the data here.
4:25:57Yeah, about 12 were the last two.
4:25:59But maybe this, maybe it's a week.
4:26:03But nevertheless, it was worth it.
4:26:05It's been worth it.
4:26:07I now think we're in a position where there isn't a hell of a lot more that we can really do.
4:26:15When I say that, there isn't a hell of a lot harder to do as I look at the game.
4:26:21First of all, our efforts should be all out in trying to get an up or down vote on a total close-off of the hearings next Thursday with no compromise.
4:26:32My understanding is the division here, apparently, the fire doesn't think you can get that.
4:26:39The majority of the interviewer doesn't think so.
4:26:42You don't know.
4:26:43Skeptical about it.
4:26:44Skeptical about Eastland's position.
4:26:46Skeptical about how firm our Republicans want to be.
4:26:48Right.
4:26:49Well, it will be Clark's position to get those Republicans as firm as he can.
4:26:53And it will be, it will be Blaine's responsibility, and how Mitchell gets back, I'm going to blame him on it.
4:27:00Because Mitchell's ass is involved in this now, too, you see, as he's well aware, and on Eastland.
4:27:06Mm-hmm.
4:27:07they've got to get Eastman braced to the extent nowadays Eastman owes them a lot.
4:27:14He owes them one hell of a lot.
4:27:16Now, if he doesn't get Eastman, you're going to lose him, aren't you?
4:27:20Yes, sir.
4:27:22unless they could get an agreement to limit it to four or five people would get over within a week
4:27:44Okay, don't do that.
4:27:46Well, except they did a Duranquist case, and that's one of the other options that was going to be just before you came in here.
4:27:53What does that mean?
4:27:54Well, if that would head off any other subcommittee investigation, it would continue the ITT case regardless.
4:28:00Do you want to leave it on?
4:28:01No, no, no.
4:28:03I've never wanted to leave it on.
4:28:06If you could limit it to three or four or five people.
4:28:11Well, only if you had an absolute commitment that they would not continue it in a subcommittee investigation.
4:28:18And I'd let them go another week.
4:28:22Well, if the other option was to turn it off cold here and start it up in one of the subcommittees here.
4:28:30Because he could count these subcommittees so it doesn't have, doesn't the subcommittee operate in any group of the full committee?
4:28:35Yes, sir.
4:28:36And that's where Eastland is critically important.
4:28:39That's right.
4:28:41Well, he's, it's got to be cold turkey.
4:28:43And so that is one of the reasons why everybody's got to do it.
4:28:46But that's the only thing that I think is important here is that we've got to call in the chips on Eastland.
4:28:52Now, I have a little game.
4:28:54Do you get to play with him, too?
4:28:56I'm going to tell you either Clark or Bobby.
4:28:58But it's got to be done.
4:29:02Well, the best of all worlds would be to close off this hearing and not spurn any others on next Thursday.
4:29:10That's... Not what?
4:29:11Not creating... Oh, God.
4:29:14I've got to close these off and have another one.
4:29:15My wrist is going to have to go on a full thing.
4:29:19Really?
4:29:20Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
4:29:20If you could then get it clear... You're right.
4:29:22You've got to get it clear to the chairman of Jesus Christ.
4:29:26The chairman would suddenly kill you.
4:29:28That's right.
4:29:29I know.
4:29:33Now, you will determine that plant Thursday.
4:29:37You'll know Thursday morning.
4:29:41Well, we don't need to speculate about it.
4:29:43We don't need to worry about it.
4:29:45I don't think that sitting around worrying and speculating about it is a bad thing.
4:29:50We've all been beating our brains about this, and for good reason.
4:29:54I know, I mean, I think that you said we came very close on several occasions.
4:29:59If we had completely destroyed the authenticity of that metal, and if the goddamn Bureau had not gotten that crazy, nobody there is in there.
4:30:09Then we would have shifted Kennedy to his ID and discouraged that in future stuff.
4:30:16But at the present time, Chuck, you've just got to figure that they're going to investigate this in all fields.
4:30:24All right, good.
4:30:25Trying to find out.
4:30:47I don't want you to discuss it among yourselves so much.
4:30:52I really think that at this point,
4:31:09At this point, we've got a lot of other games to try.
4:31:12And my point is, I just think in terms of, you know, here we are all.
4:31:18We all know this is important.
4:31:19We know it's important for the future.
4:31:21We want to win this battle.
4:31:23But when we're fighting this battle, we can't fight other battles.
4:31:27And that's what I'm concerned about.
4:31:28And I'd like to have you, with all your bright guys, the rest, I'd like to have us sort of, at this point, just sort of say, well,
4:31:39rave is inevitable, and so you just have to remind us, what are you, are you disagreeing?
4:31:46What the hell, what the hell more could you do by, you know, by, by, by concentrating on this standing this time, other than, other than an all-out attempt on Easter, an all-out attempt on the part of a very good history to hold the Senators in line.
4:32:00And if you have a leak, they knock that off.
4:32:02Then it goes to the Senate floor, as I suppose it does, and you have the inevitable delay.
4:32:09And there will come a time then when we will have to make a decision as to how long it can delay.
4:32:14Now that I won't tell you about, but we know what we're going to do.
4:32:20But my point is,
4:32:22You've got to make, you've got to be sure that the case is made in a public mind and in the minds of the men that are deeply involved in this.
4:32:34that we have made an effort that we didn't go around.
4:32:38Nobody up until this point could argue that we haven't made a superhuman effort.
4:32:43I agree.
4:32:44What I think is involved is not up to this point.
4:32:50What I'm saying is, at this point,
4:32:54their judgment, and I speak now of Mitchell's and Planky's judgment as to what will happen with regard to confirmation, and my view is probably wrong.
4:33:03On the other hand,
4:33:05We cannot say, look, you're wrong, and get the hell out of it.
4:33:10That we cannot say.
4:33:12What we can do is to demonstrate they're wrong.
4:33:16It won't take too long, but it'll come.
4:33:18And once that's demonstrated, then everybody should get it.
4:33:22You see my point?
4:33:24I do.
4:33:25I have no doubts.
4:33:26I do not know a little bit about election time in this case.
4:33:30I have none at all.
4:33:32I know what the Democrats are up to.
4:33:35And I think the people who have the findings to be determined are probably wrong.
4:33:43I'm not sure.
4:33:45I mean, I can't be sure.
4:33:47But I think they're probably wrong.
4:33:48I think the probabilities are very, very high.
4:33:54But I do know that, see, that isn't my problem.
4:33:57What we've got to do, we've got to convince them that they're wrong by showing them, like Leifertown.
4:34:07Well, I think he said some tells us that Old Eastman's going to be with him.
4:34:11He even thinks, uh, literally he thought it was going to be with Mervick.
4:34:16Mervick?
4:34:17Mervick?
4:34:17He says, I've got Mervick.
4:34:19Mervick?
4:34:19I don't think he'll ever have Mervick.
4:34:21Huh?
4:34:22Mervick.
4:34:23He thinks that... Mervick?
4:34:24He'll get Mervick.
4:34:25He thinks they're all of them.
4:34:26He thinks that Hart... Yeah.
4:34:28He thinks Hart is down for Kennedy and, and, uh, Coney or Kennedy.
4:34:31I don't know.
4:34:32Five would be against if he were there, but he's gone.
4:34:35Now, coming to that, on the other hand, you see the fact we faced Chuck is not whether he tried or wrong, but that he thinks that.
4:34:44Now, what we have to do is to give him that one chance.
4:34:49In other words, when a guy, I drove him, he was nominated for attorney general.
4:34:53He's got to have a chance to have him run.
4:34:56I agree.
4:34:56And if he can't make it,
4:34:58The whole attitude is what I said at the press conference.
4:35:04The client needs to have confidence in the client.
4:35:20That he can be and should be confirmed.
4:35:23That should be the decision.
4:35:25Now, we may change our mind at a certain time.
4:35:29And it's magic.
4:35:31We know what the probabilities are.
4:35:33All of us, each in his own way, has a different view of that.
4:35:35That's what we're planning now and so forth.
4:35:38That's the weather campaign.
4:35:39You know what I mean.
4:35:40I have perhaps, I'm more realistic about any of the rest of you because I perhaps will get it much sooner.
4:35:47But the point is, have you come this far?
4:35:50Now we're in a position where we cannot rule and then have Mitchell, Black, Eastland, and a considerable body of their friends say what we really could have made.
4:36:07Oh, I agree.
4:36:08I understand that completely and believe really, Mr. President, that there isn't anything
4:36:15that we can do between now and next season.
4:36:18You've got to .
4:36:18Well, that would be the only thing you could do if we could eat for Christ's sake.
4:36:23MR.
4:36:24The biggest difficulty is that I have not been able to tell findings
4:36:46or Mitchell, what the political goals are and what I know, because either one of them could be called back as a witness.
4:36:54I could merely say to you that I've looked at every shred of paper, and... You've seen it all.
4:37:00I've seen it all.
4:37:02And it scares a living daylights out of me.
4:37:05That's right.
4:37:06Well, that's the point, sir.
4:37:08Well, that's what did... Am I wrong about it?
4:37:11Isn't that what Mr. Mitchell did?
4:37:13Yeah, but... Yeah, but...
4:37:14He was on a little beat, which is what we here were going to say.
4:37:18Mitchell does not know of memos that were sent to him, because I refuse to count.
4:37:21I have to look at it.
4:37:22I don't think he... Memos that were sent to him from...
4:37:25Yes, sir.
4:37:25Yes, sir.
4:37:26At the most damaging time.
4:37:39I mean, the memo is a...
4:37:41They have nothing to do with the sheriff's hotel, sir.
4:37:44Well, why don't you have a chance to do it?
4:37:46Well, it was our general.
4:37:47I think that's possible.
4:37:48That's right.
4:37:49Well, or it was the chairman of that, or the, uh, well, Brian was, I think.
4:37:53The most dangerous, the most dangerous one, we don't know how many copies were made of, which is, which is our problem.
4:38:01We have all of our copies, I say, but we don't know what happened to them in the justice suppression.
4:38:07They can't find all the copies in justice.
4:38:10And that's a May 5, 1971 memo from Relickman to the Attorney General in which he talks about discussions between you and the Attorney General on this case and on the quote, agreed upon ends in the resolution of the ITT litigation.
4:38:25Well, that memo, if that came out in that committee, would be pretty tough right now because I would lay it right in the ear.
4:38:33And we think we've got control.
4:38:35The point that I made this morning, and I discussed some of these when it was very valid, that with or without these hearings, if these goddamn things leak out now, they're going to be just as big as it's supposed to be.
4:38:46If someone's got a copy of that memo, it's going to be used.
4:38:49Whether the hearings are done.
4:38:50Whether the hearings are done, whether Klein needs to stay here or goes off to the moon.
4:38:55I see.
4:38:57But I would argue that getting the hearings...
4:38:59I would argue that if somebody had copies of those, we'd know it by then.
4:39:02I'm not sure.
4:39:04They can think of a way to respond, if they want to.
4:39:08Depends.
4:39:08Well, somebody has copies, you mean, somebody in an ID, an ID, but somebody in justice.
4:39:13Yeah.
4:39:13It makes no sense.
4:39:16Well, somewhere in the world, hell no, there's none of those.
4:39:19Aquarium is on all of those numbers.
4:39:22If this doesn't happen, it just goes out the window.
4:39:24You're peeping.
4:39:26There's none of those according to that.
4:39:29So that's been my biggest concern, and the whole guy...
4:39:31The earlier one.
4:39:32Yeah, the earlier one.
4:39:35the earthman that talks with me, and, uh, Andrew Mitchell, that when I talk is quite a decent man, involved.
4:39:49As I recall, earlier than Plantinga, apparently they talked about this matter.
4:39:55Plantinga didn't understand the situation.
4:39:57I think that's the whole problem with Plantinga.
4:39:59Plantinga was, well, you really have to get in here with Connelly and Plantinga and all the rest.
4:40:05Plantinga was supposed to follow.
4:40:07Plantinga got deep, really.
4:40:10And he said, you've got to do something about justice.
4:40:17I'm having problems with justice on this thing.
4:40:20And I said, fine, let's get the goddamn thing settled.
4:40:23We didn't discuss the case.
4:40:24I mean, we didn't discuss what, or anything of that sort.
4:40:28And that's all there was to it.
4:40:30yeah we all know the details of this i mean i say we all but several people understood but
4:40:55no but who where in the white house was this matter discussed i'd like to know myself because all i know is that eric became in the office one day and he said i've got a problem with the justice
4:41:16I said, what is the problem?
4:41:18He said, the problem today, man, I trust them.
4:41:20They're not following, McLaren does not follow the things that you lay down in the hangar.
4:41:25That's right.
4:41:26That's exactly right.
4:41:27You know what, that was the time, wasn't that when this all came about?
4:41:31Did Erdman ask me to call mine?
4:41:33I did.
4:41:34There were two times that it came up.
4:41:36One was in the fall of 71.
4:41:37One was in the spring of 71.
4:41:38Yeah.
4:41:39But...
4:41:44The reason that it kept coming up in the latest— What did it come up with?
4:41:47What error did it bring into being?
4:41:48Oh, hell, the reason it kept coming up is because every time that IT&D went anywhere, they would—they saw the vice president, Connolly, Peterson, and those fellows would feed back to Erling.
4:41:59What I can't answer is—what I can't answer is that what happened is that Erling was simply reflecting what people throughout the administration were telling him, so he didn't know anything.
4:42:10But you had a philosophical difference.
4:42:12You had an antitrust chief who was obsessed with destroying things and lawless for their own reasons.
4:42:19The policy was that bigness per se was not the reason for disproving.
4:42:24And that was our conversation that I had with Eric at the time you had the language.
4:42:28That's all.
4:42:29I said, you started that.
4:42:30We didn't get anything.
4:42:31We didn't get anything.
4:42:32We just said, no, we made a philosophical determination.
4:42:35That's not this thing.
4:42:37And what the hell is happening?
4:42:39Is Justice carrying out?
4:42:40Which reading did you learn about?
4:42:41I heard he was supposed to be disciplined in justice.
4:42:45I don't know.
4:42:46Wasn't he?
4:42:48That's right.
4:42:49That's exactly right.
4:42:50I don't ever remember finding him in justice.
4:42:55I don't think he did.
4:42:57John ran it.
4:42:58So does John's problem with McLaren?
4:43:01But your enrollment,
4:43:11On the merits, there's no problem.
4:43:14But on the merits, it's a hell of a problem because of what they testified to.
4:43:18They testified that it was not a problem.
4:43:20That's right.
4:43:22And you weren't in the case, but that's a fine line that's going to be very difficult to... Well, the documentation doesn't distinguish the policy from the case.
4:43:31That's the problem.
4:43:33The substance of the discussions here were policy.
4:43:35They're proper and they're appropriate that they take place here.
4:43:39But in the transmittal...
4:43:41Nobody on the surface would distinguish the fallacy from the case.
4:43:44And there was no need to in the transcript.
4:43:47And literally now you wish you had, but then there was no point in it.
4:43:51No, it was a perfectly appropriate thing.
4:43:53In fact, some of the memos weren't even classified because we weren't embarrassed to be concerned with this problem.
4:43:59We ought to be.
4:44:00Well, is it your point that you view this memorandum as something we don't get on ourselves?
4:44:05Oh, no, no.
4:44:06I think no.
4:44:09We don't know that's out.
4:44:10If we knew it was out, I would agree we should get it out ourselves.
4:44:15If it doesn't happen, go out and sell one letter for it not to.
4:44:18Yeah, much better.
4:44:19I mean, that's a game board that has to be run, I think.
4:44:25You could argue a basic strategy.
4:44:27You said earlier we'll send a copy of this to IT&T.
4:44:29That's what worries me.
4:44:30Oh, no.
4:44:31Jesus Christ.
4:44:32Go back to the beginning.
4:44:33Are you sure?
4:44:33Yes, sir.
4:44:34I will be.
4:44:34Send a copy to Lannigan.
4:44:35Yeah.
4:44:36What's up?
4:44:37Lannigan wants to send to IT&T.
4:44:38Mm-hmm.
4:44:40He got an answer, I don't think he would.
4:44:42We've done that.
4:44:43And they've done a hell of a job.
4:44:45See, that's what, remember, I told you way back at the beginning, you said, why is something happening?
4:44:49I kept saying, they're trying to get the papers from us.
4:44:51I was, I wanted to be very careful to see every piece of paper.
4:44:55We had one guy assigned.
4:44:57And it took us a week to get it all together.
4:44:59It was a little unnerving.
4:45:00I came in here one night at
4:45:09two in the morning had them open Central Files and went down and physically took the files out because all of these things were in our Central File.
4:45:16That memo that I'm talking about was in the basement of E.L.B.
4:45:19and Central File Center.
4:45:21We had them open it up in the middle of one night and just brought it into the file collection.
4:45:26And what did she say about it?
4:45:31I don't have the whole text.
4:45:33The excerpt, the pertinent excerpt is that
4:45:38Ehrlichman to Mitchell.
4:45:40Now there are four.
4:45:41The difficulty of this one is Griswold testified that he didn't bring the case because
4:46:08It wasn't a good enough case.
4:46:09The memos and all the files indicate to the contrary that Griswold didn't bring the case because he was being pressured not to.
4:46:18And for good reasons.
4:46:20We objected to the policy.
4:46:22Policy reasons.
4:46:23Because of IT&T.
4:46:24And why did Griswold play such a good game?
4:46:27Well, he's got his own professional reputation as well as does McLaren.
4:46:30But McLaren and Griswold were quite aware of it.
4:46:35the only files we do not have under control are the igt files which are in the s which have been subpoenaed and delivered to the sec those at some point i think we have to anticipate are going to come out
4:47:04They're damaging.
4:47:05They're not as damaging as our own internal cells.
4:47:08I've read them all.
4:47:08Yes, sir.
4:47:09What do they say?
4:47:11Do you know anything from earlier when you're finding them?
4:47:15No.
4:47:15All you have are files that are letters that were written and memoranda prepared.
4:47:24Either letters written to people in the administration or memoranda prepared after meetings with people in the administration.
4:47:31And they contradict testimony that we've given so far.
4:47:35And they're very self-serving.
4:47:37I mean, they're very, they puff it up.
4:47:39Thank Tony for delaying the filing of the petition in the Supreme Court.
4:47:45You know, that's the reason.
4:47:50Thank Ed Newport.
4:47:51Isn't that typical of him?
4:47:55Sure.
4:47:55He knows that the SEC has those files.
4:47:58He does.
4:47:59Exactly.
4:48:02Well, Bill Casey says he's got it under control.
4:48:04Yesterday in the committee... No, he's good.
4:48:11Yesterday in the committee, they talked about subpoenaing the same records directly to MIT, which they probably could get.
4:48:19So that, to me, is one of the areas that I still expect to shoot a draft, but that isn't.
4:48:25I mean, that's not a big deal.
4:48:27Well, the point is, though, that getting this all out of the line of fire isn't something that's... Well, in my opinion, the whole... That's the only thing that I'm thinking about.
4:48:38You know, that's why I said, well, if you did surgery, if you cut it off, Jesus, we'd just take the heat of saying, well, we were wrong.
4:48:44But I don't think you can.
4:48:45You don't think so?
4:48:46I don't.
4:48:47Yeah.
4:48:49The answer that I...
4:48:50It's not safe for me to do it.
4:48:51No.
4:48:52You just call up and say, Dick, I'm sorry, there's just too much in here.
4:48:57No, the only reason I... You see it won't stop?
4:48:59The only reason I even mention it, Mr. President, is because...
4:49:02Except it remains to sell, right?
4:49:04No, it might have, the other way.
4:49:05Go ahead.
4:49:06The only reason I mention it is that neither Mitchell nor Quintings know what is in the files, and I have deliberately kept it from them.
4:49:13Sure.
4:49:14Because if they have to testify, it's best that they don't know.
4:49:17I told Mitchell certain things not to say when he testified.
4:49:22Based on my knowledge of these things.
4:49:24But I didn't tell him why I told him.
4:49:25And the local indies know that there are things in the files that they don't know what they are.
4:49:29That's correct.
4:49:29They know that.
4:49:30And I told him, I warned John.
4:49:32I said, I'm telling you not to say certain things because I know why you shouldn't say anything specifically.
4:49:38I've got you.
4:49:38He did say one thing he shouldn't have said.
4:49:40What was that?
4:49:41That he hadn't talked to Ryan Keith?
4:49:45No.
4:49:46He said that in his meeting with Janine initially, he didn't talk to anyone else afterwards, which he didn't.
4:49:54Who did he talk to?
4:49:57A client.
4:50:01which he should have just passed it off.
4:50:03Nothing at the top was wrong.
4:50:06Nothing at the top was wrong.
4:50:08Nothing at the top was wrong.
4:50:10Nothing at the top was wrong.
4:50:19And then I remember, I'm an expert on this, but I remember very graphically the whole thing that says I didn't get into these things.
4:50:26But Erwin got one day to get in here.
4:50:30So I got in front of him and said, you know, he never brings things up unless he has to.
4:50:34And I said, I've met with the staff.
4:50:37But he didn't mention you except for anything.
4:50:39I thought, I think that's what he said he met with.
4:50:42That's why I've been worried about finding him for this.
4:50:44I don't mean that he shouldn't have done it.
4:50:48What the hell was, what the hell was finding in the main contact of I.T.
4:50:54and T. when that one comes out?
4:50:55No.
4:50:55Then why would everybody come inside of that?
4:50:59Because Flanagan was assigned to ride dirt on some of this, and he was given it from others.
4:51:03It wasn't just IT&T.
4:51:04I don't know about earlier, but it came down on this occasion.
4:51:08Talk about IT&T.
4:51:09And I had a trust in General.
4:51:12That's right.
4:51:12And he said, you've got to get McLaren in line, which was a pet subject of mine.
4:51:17Because I said, fire this son of a bitch.
4:51:18That's right.
4:51:19And I called and I said, either get some line or you fire me.
4:51:23That's what I mean about the general policy.
4:51:25I didn't even know what the case was until today.
4:51:29And I don't know whether Gerland reflects that in his spiral on the IPD.
4:51:34He may have overstepped what he says.
4:51:37We discussed the candidate results from a season.
4:51:40The phrase, the precise phrase is the agreed upon ends in the IPD case.
4:51:45What?
4:51:46The agreed upon ends in the IPD case.
4:51:53What else is he talking about?
4:51:54Well, he's talking about the policy issue, but...
4:51:56He's talking about what we agreed upon together.
4:51:59Yeah, that's right.
4:52:00It's perfectly, it's fine, except that we want to keep the thing out of discussion.
4:52:06Except that we did not have any agreement on that.
4:52:10He did not discuss the IET&T case with me.
4:52:13He didn't say what it was at all.
4:52:15No, no.
4:52:16Not a word.
4:52:16I was with him one day, Mr. President, when we talked to you about this, and it was...
4:52:20strictly the policy question that's all well he didn't say what it was about anything but we're going to want to appeal this off or do that or else the question was whether business in itself should be a cause for an antitrust action and my answer was no that was all we ever discussed so what's he mean with agreed upon ends i wonder it doesn't seem like john's just required
4:52:45Maybe he had some agreed upon ideas to send him to the White House.
4:52:48Did he ever try to tell justice how to serve his case?
4:52:52Well, you would gather that from IP&T's correspondence, but not from them.
4:52:57Actually, I think they did, too.
4:53:00Yeah, I think so.
4:53:01And you decided what the hell they should appeal on?
4:53:03No, no, no.
4:53:05In effect, we... We told them to settle rather than to carry it through, and to settle on the basis of dropping... See, another factor came into this, which was the question of general economic interest.
4:53:17Oh, hell, a big, big deal.
4:53:18And the harm that would be done to the economy if you brought in the part of steel.
4:53:27Oh, that's right.
4:53:27They were afraid of, of the effect of the stock market and all that crap, wasn't that it?
4:53:34Yeah, you've got to remember this was last summer when people were real worried about doing anything that would rock the boat on the economy.
4:53:40And that's why Peterson was so involved.
4:53:43but it'd be the no the only thing the white earth is what they should have been doing where you've got a little bit of that but you've discussed it's just that even there
4:53:59I don't think that's going to be too bad, and if it comes out, it comes out.
4:54:08I think you just have to say that Ervin's going to say what we heard, that he was only reflecting what occurred in a cabinet meeting.
4:54:20with regard to the with regard to the policy you know the committee on economic policy well i think that's what it was the cabinet committee economic policy in addition to which the very appropriate area to be concerned with you know the previous administration johnson had made the decision that that he needed legislation to stop the conglomerate movement mcgrath came down there and sold early in april of 1969
4:54:48on the idea that you could do it in court.
4:54:50And Erlichman said, fine.
4:54:52Then you've got two years down the road, and the thing began to become a huge issue.
4:54:57And that case represented our policy.
4:55:00And it was absolutely appropriate that we say that we wanted to settle it.
4:55:06Well, the firm has held that for going to court to establish a legal base on which he was going to then move on all the other stuff.
4:55:13That's right.
4:55:17they're not perhaps as sensitive to what
4:55:37what could happen by continuing this.
4:55:39Well, they want, I don't know, I think, in fairness to you, Clive, there's no way to say this, if you're Clive Easton, but you don't want to knock this damn thing off Thursday.
4:55:48There's no question, I don't know about Mitchell, but there's no question of Clive Easton, but that it's stuck directly to him that this has to be knocked off clean with no compromise on Thursday.
4:56:03That's right.
4:56:04That's the only reason I even mentioned it.
4:56:07if there isn't anything else we can do other than that because that's what i told you and i reiterated it today and it was absolutely clear that's fine it was confirmed as be thirsty is it and i can't knock it off period and i don't even think you ought to have four lovers i'm afraid that all right i'd like not to i'd like to knock it off totally
4:56:31or whatever they want to do.
4:56:33Do you think that if they knock it off, the county might come in and say, look, this is what they tried to cover up?
4:56:37No.
4:56:39I think if I were given my choice, Mr. Pritzker, of a two-month candidate subcommittee investigation or four or five more days before the bulk of that, that's all I'm saying is if you brought out of there with a definite termination on the hearings and a limit to what else they were going to do,
4:56:59that that would be better than a pre-running subcommittee for any length of time that might go thereafter.
4:57:05Sure.
4:57:05So that's a variation on the altogether cutoff.
4:57:08That's a variation you go to if you don't need it.
4:57:11No, no, you only go to that if you're stuck with the Hobbs and Schultz, and that choice is... And so that's the final one.
4:57:17Very, very strong, as you may recall, or Ant Spanning's.
4:57:23very very strong to uh against this whole uh antitrust policy oh yeah everybody yeah the whole administration except for except for except for justice except for mcclaren remember we had that house was it not found right now remember john mitchell came in and said the confederates are terrible and jennifer mitchell's on the other side uh but then finally
4:57:52Well, I just don't think there's anything else between now and next issue we can do other than Clark McGregor and Dick with Eastland making a massive effort to turn this thing off.
4:58:04And if that fails, then I think you have to reassess the options at that time.
4:58:08But if that, if that, if that, if that succeeds, then that would, that's, could be a better state.
4:58:18I'd love to say that I would rather either have it cut off
4:58:25I'd rather lose the boat to cut off, up or down.
4:58:42And then have it, well, we cut it off, but we're going to continue for an indefinite period of time.
4:58:50And then have another vote to cut off in three or four weeks.
4:58:55That's the worst of all the rules.
4:58:56Because, you see, if you lose a vote to cut off, then you can act on that.
4:59:00Then you can act on claims.
4:59:02And must.
4:59:04If you lose a vote to cut off.
4:59:05Oh, yeah.
4:59:05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:59:07You win the votes, Carly.
4:59:10That's a little bit of sand for her, and they have a reasonable time to see whether the Senate's going to act.
4:59:21You'll know.
4:59:21You'll know quite rapidly when Manseil gets the first request from the Policy Committee for a hold.
4:59:29And how long he puts the hold on.
4:59:31You'll know in a matter of a few weeks.
4:59:32Of course, you have the other delay of
4:59:36the committee reports.
4:59:37Yeah, I'm sorry.
4:59:39Yeah, that doesn't matter.
4:59:41Matter of fact, those reports I want to see.
4:59:45Sure.
4:59:45Well, no, because the majority of reports should close it off.
4:59:48It may be a vindication, which would be fine.
4:59:54The issues, guys.
4:59:55It's good to have a committee report.
4:59:56That's what I mean.
4:59:58I want to see it.
4:59:59I don't know if there would be a committee report.
5:00:02Let's get the majority of the Senate Judiciary Committee to sign a report, if they will, saying that they think this whole goddamn thing is flimsy and an inhonorable man.
5:00:13Now, that's what we're aiming for, yes.
5:00:15The interesting thing, Mr. President, and I think that
5:00:21most significant is that my checks with people who count... McGregor's gotten some feelings from some of the congressmen that it's beginning to have an impact.
5:00:33But I took, for example, to Bradshaw, Dave Bradshaw.
5:00:35Yeah, you're in Chicago.
5:00:37He said this, he said, there's no effect.
5:00:39He said, forget it.
5:00:40He said, it's unimportant.
5:00:42Lou Harris said, don't under any circumstances
5:00:47back down and withdraw our client duty.
5:00:49Not now.
5:00:50It's not hurting you.
5:00:50And he made a very interesting point, which I haven't gone back to check.
5:00:54He said that after Carswell and Ainsworth, we did not decline in the polls at all.
5:01:01I haven't gone back to looking to see if that was true.
5:01:04He said those kind of defeats don't hurt you.
5:01:05People sort of take them as followers.
5:01:08The Washington politics is right.
5:01:10We talked to Bryce Harlow.
5:01:11He said, don't worry about it.
5:01:12He said, I've just come back from Ohio, and this ain't very big in the provinces.
5:01:17He said, it's a big story around here, but you haven't been heard yet in the provinces.
5:01:37Let's go to the other end.
5:01:38On the other end, the one thing that you can't have.
5:01:43You can't have a situation where you can't be a senator again.
5:01:47You can't have a situation where you can't be a senator again.
5:01:53You can't have a situation where you can't be a senator again.

NARA Description

On March 30, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Charles W. Colson, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:47 pm to 2:32 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 697-029 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 697-29

Date: March 30, 1972
Time: 12:47 pm - 2:32 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and Charles W. Colson.

     Schedules
          -Haldeman
          -Henry A. Kissinger
          -Colson
               -Workload
               -Vacation

                 -Florida
                       -Reservation problems
     -Clark MacGregor
     -John D. Ehrlichman
     -Kissinger
     -Staff workload
           -International Telephone and Telegraph [ITT] case
                 -Edward M. Kennedy
     -Colson's vacation
     -White House staff
     -Kissinger
           -Health
                 -Dr. W. Kenneth Riland
           -Workload
     -Colson
           -Florida
                 -The President’s trip to the People’s Republic of China [PRC]
           -Boston
           -John B. Connally

Connally
    -Press relations
    -Donald H. Rumsfeld

Television
     -Earl L. Butz and James D. Hodgson
           -Debate
                -Meat prices
                      -Labor
                -George Meany
                      -Hugh Scott
                      -American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial Organizations
                           [AFL-CIO]
                           -Patrick E. Gorman
                                 -Vietnam

Hussein ibn Talal [Hussein, King Jordan]
     -Dinner guests
          -Rose Mary Woods
          -Labor leaders
                -Frank E. Fitzsimmons
                -Construction trades

                -AFL-CIO
                     -Building trades presidents
                          -Church service
                -Jews

The President’s forthcoming meeting with Fitzsimmons
     -Colson
     -George P. Shultz
     -Hodgson
     -Shultz
          -Relationship with Fitzsimmons
          -West Coast situation

Pay Board
     -Fitzsimmons
           -International Brotherhood of Teamsters pay increase
           -West Coast situation
                 -Harry Bridges
     -Shultz, Connally, Colson meeting
     -Price Commission members
     -Meany
           -Confrontation with the President
                 -Television
                       -Herbert G. Klein
                            -Matzoh balls
                       -Food prices
                       -Commission members statements
           -C. Jackson Grayson, Jr.
     -House and Senate

Unions
    -Curbing power
         -Big business
              -Roger M. Blough
              -Fred J. Borch
              -Arch N. Booth
              -US Chamber of Commerce
              -National Association of Manufacturers [NAM]
         -Congress
              -Busing
         -Advertising campaign
    -White House position

      -Business
            -Curbing power of unions
                  -Timing
                       -Election year
                             -Labor votes
                                  -Gerald R. Ford
                                  -1958 comparison
            -Shultz
                  -Talk with Borch
                       -General Electric [GE]
-Congressmen and Senators
-Connally
-Flanigan
-Shultz
-Colson
-Flanigan
-Peter G. Peterson
-Connally
-Flanigan
      -Sherman Adams
      -Oil business
-Connally
-Colson
-Ford
-Legislation
      -Timing
            -Meany walkout
            -Opinion Research Corporation [ORC]
-Unknown person
-80th Congress
      -Anti-labor platform
            -Harry S. Truman's veto of Taft-Hartley Bill
      -Other issues
            -Meat prices
            -Commission
-Labor
      -Disorganization
-Shultz
-Connally
      -Possible telephone calls
-Dock strike
      -Legislation

Busing issue
     -MacGregor
           -House of Representatives
     -Michigan
           -Judge Steven J. Roth
           -Congressmen
                -Turnabout
                       -James G. O’Hara
           -Robert P. Griffin
           -Detroit News
           -Detroit Free Press
                -Knight-Ridder
                       -Miami
                       -Jews
           -Constitutional amendment
                -Martin S. Hayden
     -Democratic candidates
           -Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
     -Moratorium
           -Congress
                -Democratic candidates
           -Court tests
           -Passage
                -Timing
                       -Democratic National Convention
                       -Colson's conversation with Ehrlichman
                -Lower courts
                -Supreme Court
                -Lower courts
                       -Delays
                -Supreme Court
                       -Appeal
           -Housing Act
           -Court test
                -Election
                -William H. Rehnquist
                       -Constitutional amendment
                       -Self-disqualification
                -Constitutional amendment
                       -Democratic candidates
                -White House demonstration

                -Rehnquist
                -Lewis F. Powell, Jr.
                -Warren E. Burger
                -Powell
                      -Racism
                           -Richmond, Virginia
     -Constitutional amendment
          -Richard M. Scammon's analogy
                -Income tax
     -Buffalo
          -News summary
     -Boston
          -Irish Catholic community

Federal aid to parochial education
     -Possible speech at the National Catholic Educational Association [NCEA]
           convention
     -Kenneth R. Cole, Jr.
     -Meeting
           -Shultz's office
     -Connally
     -Wilbur D. Mills
           -Bill
                 -Compared to White House legislation
     -Domestic Council staff
           -Ehrlichman
           -Edwin L. Harper
           -Ehrlichman
           -Cole
     -Parochial schools compared to public school system
           -Religion
           -Discipline
           -Uniforms
     -Domestic Council staff
     -Views
           -The President
           -Flanigan
           -Colson
           -Connally
           -Shultz
           -Domestic Council
           -Shultz

     -Catholic families
     -Domestic Council
           -Poll
                 -Catholic vote
     -Catholic communities
           -Percentage of children in parochial schools compared with total of Catholic
                 children
           -Total population in the US
                 -Percentage
     -Elliot L. Richardson
           -Public schools
     -Credibility issue
     -Report
     -Legislation
           -Mills's bill
     -Speech
           -Patrick J. Buchanan
           -Population Commission

Abortion
     -NCEA speech
           -Population Commission
                 -Recommendations
     -Politics
           -Colorado compared to Michigan
                 -Votes
                      -Blacks
                      -Support for the President from anti-abortion segment of population
           -Domestic Council
           -Sierra Club
                 -Zero population growth
                      -Support for Nixon

Book by Russell A. Kirk
    -Colson
    -Connally
    -Mrs. Joseph W. Alsop

Federal aid to parochial education
     -NCEA speech
           -The President's schedule
                 -101st Airborne

                     -Camp David
                     -Easter egg roll
          -NCEA
               -Abortion issue
          -NCEA speech
               -Possible political effect
                    -Franklin D. Roosevelt
               -San Diego
                    -The President's speech
                          -Ship yard
               -Effect
               -Compared to Knights of Columbus
          -Domestic Council
               -House Resolution [HR] 1
          -Mitchell
          -Connally

     The President’s schedule

**********************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
[Personal Returnable]
[Duration: 16m 40s ]

Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 12:47 pm.

Sanchez left at an unknown time before 2:32 pm.

Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 12:47 pm.

Sanchez left at an unknown time before 2:32 pm.

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1

**********************************************************************

     Issues

           -Parochial education
           -Busing
                -Politics
                -Raymond K. Price, Jr.
                -Leonard Garment
           -Public image of the President

     Vietnam
          -The President’s possible visit to the 101st Airborne
          -Offensive
               -Timing
                     -Withdrawal
               -I Corps
               -US casualties
               -Bombing
               -Withdrawal

     The President's schedule
          -Press conference
               -Timing
                      -ITT
                      -Wisconsin primary
                           -Commentators
                                 -Democratic nominee
                           -Florida primary
                                 -News coverage
                           -Political questions
                      -ITT issue

[Transcript #2: A transcript of the following portion of the conversation may be found in RG
460, Box 58, pp 1-42.]

                           -Bradshaw response
                                [Forename unknown] Walker

     The President's schedule
          -Meeting
               -Fitzsimmons
                      -Health

     Colson's schedule
          -Vacation

Haldeman and Colson left at 2:32 pm.

Also recorded on March 30, 1972

  • 697-022 12:30 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:30 pm to 12:31 pm.
  • 697-023 12:31 PM · 11 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Mike Finamore, Ann Landers, A. Hamblin Letton, Mrs. A. Hamblin Letton, Charles R. Ebersol, Mrs. Charles R. Ebersol, Lane W. Adams, Mrs. Lane W. Adams, Irving I. Rimer, Alan Davis, John Finamore, Mrs. John Finamore, Deborah Finamore, Alice Letton, Kenneth R. Cole, Jr., James H. Cavanaugh, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:31 pm to 12:39 pm.
  • 697-024 12:39 PM · 21 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:39 pm and 12:45 pm.
  • 697-025 12:39 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:39 pm and 12:45 pm.
  • 697-026 12:39 PM · 37 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:39 pm and 12:45 pm.
  • 697-027 12:39 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:39 pm and 12:45 pm.
  • 022-053 12:45 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 12:45 pm to 12:47 pm.
  • 697-028 12:45 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:45 pm to 12:47 pm.

All 48 conversations from March 30, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 697-029, March 30, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/697-029 (accessed October 12, 2026).