On March 31, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Rose Mary Woods, Manolo Sanchez, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:13 am to 11:14 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 699-001 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
How was the death?
I was going to suggest that you get a... Chapel Hall.
You know, they've got a TV up there.
They've got one in all of them.
Well, where they have the famous room.
And to turn on that Julie thing for a minute.
I saw the last half of it last night.
Did you see it?
No, I thought I'd ask for it today if I could.
Well, it is really neat.
I've never seen her, you know, before.
And it is so good.
I can see now what issue he has.
is totally uninhibited.
That is exactly the word that someone used in describing that show.
She was so natural, you knew.
She bounced around there, and the fact that she was better than Diane Shorter.
Diane Shorter, of course, her greatness is that she's so fresh and natural, but Julie was better.
Okay.
Not just because she was younger.
She is really, really close.
There isn't any question.
One of the Negro leaders, you know, the guy with the mustache is always laughing at the beard.
I mean, it's a little weird to find him.
His husband, Mr.
Pleasant, said she was really good.
She said she bought two beers.
She said she could do a showroom.
And she was.
Also, she made the same points that I made with her very first one.
I was walking toward a couple of chairs.
And what she's done though, she also knows, she wants to be a people too.
What is it?
The whole thing.
What I mean is the style is unbelievably good.
And I don't think the people around here, you know, realize how good she really is.
Well, I think she doesn't have the one.
She doesn't have the one.
She's got the classic.
She's got the classic.
This girl had to come forth and make notions of Jesus Christ, and I was just amazed to see it all.
So I wanted to get her to see it all.
Well, I wanted to ask you, did you ever meet those folks?
Yes, Dr. Pat had said that she would give, but I don't think she did, did she?
That was not Churchill's wife, you know, Churchill's mother.
You said you might browse through them.
Oh, yeah.
Why, did you send them up there, would you please?
No, I had written about it a couple other things later, you have a minute, but I'll bring it up.
Oh, yeah, sure, I'll be here.
Okay.
And I wanted to give that to her, but she can't do it, I don't know how she's going to do it.
This is going to be a little hard to do.
Yeah, let it sit.
Just set it up.
Have them see it around about 30 feet or something.
I'm trying to hold it in his hand.
I'm going to hand it around.
Yeah.
It's really worth it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh, what is the dough for?
Uh, it's still...
too early to tell that they haven't gone beyond those five fire bases that they pretend that they've been attacking.
And we've got another, we've intercepted another directive for the general offensive, but their problem may be that they issue these directives and they can't get them off the ground.
We have pretty good evidence now that in February, when they were supposed to go, their local people just said, you're crazy, you can't do it.
They never met in February, that's what happened.
Yeah.
We may, however, I think we ought to consider going after the Sams in the belt within 25 miles of the frontiers.
Let me suggest that in terms of going to go after them,
Unless there's a good military reason why the Air Force is so awful anyway.
I didn't go after them the day after Easter.
I wouldn't have a hell of a lot of big war to lose on Easter or something.
It's just not a good thing.
I mean, understand that it's necessary.
But you know, the way these bastards are, frankly, they could go three years from now and it wouldn't make any difference.
You know what I mean?
We told them time and again to go one day or another, and they don't go to it.
But so far, we haven't ordered them to do anything.
So right now, up to now, they have no orders to do anything.
Well, except they have a permit, I see.
But I think... What do you think you ought to do?
I think we ought to go after Earl Sands in a felt 25 miles from the frontier.
That absolutely makes a lot of...
I see that Giffens was on the state show.
Yeah.
Actually... No, Giffens is going to support you in the election.
Is he?
Yeah, he's a pretty good guy.
He...
He made a mistake in repeating what they said, but he checked with me before he went.
He hasn't given us any trouble since, and basically he's a thug.
But he's a tough guy.
I see.
Why campaign, government, and so forth?
Well...
The campaign for McGovern is going to feel a hell of a lot of good.
Could I ask you about the Rogers thing, the announcement?
I was thinking that, uh...
It would be good to get that out of the way, coming on the heels of your going to Japan.
You know what I mean?
I don't mean to sound like Roger, but from the standpoint of Europe, that we were, how does that sound to you?
The year of announcement leaves, apparently.
No, no, it was supposed to leave.
Oh, all right.
The other thing I was thinking is that I probably should send messages to the heads of state who are involved in the ones that we wanted to see.
The things you were paying attention to in Europe at the time, we met with them, but we also met with Japanese, and I'm quite sure it was impossible.
My feeling is that the best time to do it would be towards the end of next week, or around the 7th or 10th, so that it isn't too far ahead.
But sometimes the light next to me would be good.
You wouldn't do it this way, kid.
You wouldn't do it this way.
Literally describe it.
I wouldn't do it today or tomorrow.
The Europeans are restless.
Okay.
Why don't you do this so that you can give, so the bribery's gonna have a good feel in the participation, you know.
God damn, there's a difference when it comes to this announcement.
Oh yeah, I'll ask just a minute.
You just say that we were talking about it, and then why don't you say that, put it in the basis that I asked about this announcement, so I'll be there because I sent a few talks about what I...
send letters to the, or messages to the LeBron, Pompidou?
Well, I'll send anybody he's going to visit, don't you think?
Yes.
To any country, but particularly to those that I might compare to.
But the point was that I had that question I raised as whether in view of the fact that when he wants to, when he thinks it should be time, I keep asking that, that I don't want to send the letters
before we know what the timing is.
Why don't you say this?
He dictated some rough drafts and letters to these people.
And I didn't want to send them.
So I just wanted to get the timing right on it.
And also, he's got an issue.
Well, I'll figure out what it is.
But how did you see the one I wrote at your area?
Yes.
That'll be helpful.
All of them you can, David, will be the biggest thing.
All of the connections, yeah.
Yeah.
That, uh, that was, that let me know of his amount today.
And I asked you also whether or not we did send letters to Tito and Francesco about the Chinese visit.
Yes.
They were on that list.
I didn't look at the list.
Well, why don't you ask Bill to tell you what it's up to you, uh, who to, uh...
Oh, it says about Stennis here, did you see him?
Yes.
And Stennis says he will vote to oppose the administration of Mr. Reed in that more partisan crap around.
But he said this before, and I saw that.
But how did your conversation go?
How did you get out of that?
Well, I went out of the way.
I said, I want you to know.
that the President never moves anywhere without meticulous preparation.
He's at this moment in direct contact with the President.
And they're going over a whole range of issues.
And it would be very unfortunate that he muffled something about troop cuts, and I said, well, that's exactly one of the topics that they are exploring.
I said the President has protected our sole position in a way that only you who have to listen to the testimonies of these people can appreciate.
And therefore we can't have anything that weakens his position.
So on the troop cuts, he is willing to, he says he just wants just a token one, eight or ten thousand, he says, and the whole military establishment would meet his needs.
And apparently, he says, Laird screwed him last year.
How?
Well, they agreed to cut out 50,000 men out of support places.
And Laird took them all out of combat.
And didn't touch the support things.
Then he said he wants us to cut bases and...
And support structure, and he recognizes we can't do that until after the election, but if I tell him that you're looking at a careful election, I said, I'm sure you can have a complete review of that situation.
On the War Powers thing, he says he wants something, but he's not going to put his name to any particular bill.
And if we have a reasonable proposal to make, he'd be very sympathetic to it.
So I told this to McGregor, and McGregor is going to follow it up.
What is the reason, Henry, for the total negativism of people in the intellectual community?
What is the reason for it?
May I ask one?
Do you know these people?
I know them very well.
I'm very worried about them.
Not to the negative, to the basically conservative attitudes which I am.
I do not go along with the fact that education, the more you have, the more good people have, and then the societies become perfect.
Societies are not perfect because man is not perfect and never will be.
Rich men are imperfect and poor men are imperfect.
And that's what, of course, the whole communist philosophy, the socialists, the Marxists, the Benthamites, and so forth, that's where they're wrong.
But, on the other hand, these people never find, never miss an opportunity to run down the goddamn United States and everything we're doing.
I just understand it.
Jesus Christ, they're smart people, Henry.
Well, they're smart.
And they're living very well.
But it's, academic life is a depressing experience.
Why is it depressing?
Well, first of all, because you're spending your life with a group of teenagers, Mr. President.
And it is, after all, instead of helping the teenagers grow up, they become almost as irresponsible as the people with whom they meet day in and day out.
Secondly, it's an insecure-making profession, not for the top people who've got a national reputation, like Arthur Schlesinger or myself, but even the average Harvard professor has a terrible time because he goes through ten years of maddening insecurity before he ever gets tenured.
And if he doesn't make it in a good place, it isn't like in a law school where in your second year you know whether you're good enough.
And you can't fake it.
And you can pretty well predict where you're going to be in terms of the availability of law firms.
In academic life, you're entirely dependent on the personal recommendation of some ecomaniac.
Nobody knows how good you are.
Hell, I at Harvard, in 54 at Harvard,
I was always an art ball.
I was always, in that sense, an outsider.
I had one hell of a time.
Then in 55, I wrote a bestseller.
The next year, then, they fought over me like crazy.
But if I hadn't written a bestseller, and how many people...
I wrote a bestseller because I wrote about contemporary men.
My first book was a better book than Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy.
But it was about 19th century diplomacy, and the average person wasn't that interested in it.
So, it was a very thoughtful book.
It was about how peace was made in 1815.
That was a thoughtful book.
It was a very insecure book.
then they're very influenced by socialist theory.
Now, why?
That's the point I'm making.
Why?
They always have been.
Did they believe in government by a power of leadership?
They believe in manipulation, Mr. President.
And therefore, it grades on them.
In this society, intellectuals are not, as a class, highly respected.
That gets them.
Secondly, they love to manipulate.
That's why they like the Kennedys, because the Kennedys flattered them, gave them a sense of power.
And I think when you are elected, Mr. President, we ought to make an effort, not because they can contribute a goddamn cent, but simply because for the sake of the country, it's dangerous to have all the rough people who ride nickling away at the country.
to give them the illusion that they're participating in something.
Because it doesn't take many of them to... Well, Henry didn't leave for our leftists.
Well, there were a number of years it couldn't work.
Because of the war.
One, the war was second.
They hoped that they could knock you out in 72.
See, after you are re-elected, they know...
Everyone above 50 knows he's through unless he integrates himself into this new structure somehow.
I mean, all the Kennedy types will be too old for any new administration.
In 76.
Yeah.
And they can all be bought cheaply.
Can they be bought cheaply?
Yes.
Not now.
Now they exploit us.
Now anything we tell them, they use against us.
But if you get re-elected, as I think, my instinct tells me that you may get elected by a very large vote.
It all depends on the defense between now and then.
And it'll go up and down.
Between now and the conventions, the press will have to be almost fanatical, particularly the Russians, who are coming up to knock us down.
And then...
But they can?
Well, they're building up.
They're trying to build a Democrat.
You see, after Wisconsin primary, they will decide.
When I say they, there is a group.
They've got to decide, Henry, which Democrat to go for.
Now...
It must be, my evaluation is, runs third in the Wisconsin primary.
It's very likely that then the elite, you know, by the elite I mean in terms of media, it's the networks, Time, U.S. News, I don't know if U.S. News, Time, Newsweek, and Washington Post, New York Times, you know, there's a little group.
They had to decide at that point whether they were still going to ride the muskie horse.
They'd been riding him and protecting him up to a point.
And Florida began to wonder.
And just like a bunch of cattle, if you remember in the early 1960s, 80s, all these people were talking to Romney.
And Romney didn't have a chance to be nominated.
He never had a chance to be nominated.
Never.
Not with regard to that.
But the polls, everything played him out.
And it was a blip.
After that,
And in the spring, when Rockefeller made his move, they talked about Rockefeller.
Hell, I had to ask him if I was worried about him.
Rockefeller had most of their dollars.
He had never put one dollar in his wallet.
Well, I was always, I worked for Rockefeller at the time, as you know, but he kept his substance and his politics very separated.
So, when I got to Miami,
I suddenly realized he didn't have any delegates.
No.
I couldn't imagine that he had spent $10 million without getting delegates.
Spent all that money, ran.
Remember, he went out.
Oh, yeah.
And Iowa and all the rest of it.
Everybody said, it's great.
Rocky's really moving.
We just sat there and smiled.
Hell, we knew he didn't have anything.
Well, now this is a thing better.
On the other hand...
They've got to decide.
The big labor guys have got to decide, too.
And the thing that we've got to do is to just ride it through and not worry about who's on first at this moment.
My guess is, I don't know, my guess is that after Wisconsin, they may decide to go for Huberton.
That's what I think.
But if they do,
Henry, the Democratic Convention will be torn apart by Hubert Humphrey.
They cannot vote for Hubert.
Mr. President, even I cannot see who would vote for Humphrey that didn't vote for him last time.
I mean, take the absolute maximum.
Well, the other side, the other side, we've got to figure, is the Teddy thing.
And they may decide, and this may put the Teddy much sooner than he wants to have it put to him, because he really wants to be drafted.
I mean, he wants to, in other words, he wants to make the choice at the last possible time, see.
And only on the basis... That's right.
And he'll actually only make that when we see how we're doing, because he wants to wait a little after.
He wants to know what we're doing in Vietnam and what we're doing in Moscow.
Teddy wants to know whether you can get... Well, that, my point is, if you're in Vietnam and Moscow, and what the economy is in July, he would like to wait until then to determine it, but the establishment may not let him.
They don't have a horse now.
You see what I mean?
And frankly, who is that horse now?
It can't be Wallace.
It can't be McGutter.
It can't be Lindsey.
All those people are dead.
So the horse has got to be, well, it's got to be one of two, of three.
It's always got to be either Humphrey or Muskie or Tate.
Now, I think Muskie, after Wisconsin, may have suffered a fatal blow.
I doubt he can recover after Wisconsin.
If he, unless he, if he can win Wisconsin, he'll probably go on to be nominated.
Because I don't know.
But there's no sign of that.
No sign that you never know.
It's all scattered, very scattered.
And you never can tell about those comrades in Wisconsin.
I think Muskie would be the easiest for you to defeat, no matter what anyone says.
Because of his blandness, you mean?
Because of his stupidity, weakness.
Hell, if he blows in New Hampshire, why won't he blow in the national campaign?
But I think they're all, I have felt from the beginning that as soon as the Democrats started becoming visible, that your polls were misleading because they were really on the issue, do you like conditions as they are?
No one likes conditions exactly as they are.
It's when they have a choice that it crystallizes and these Democratic candidates are such sad sacks.
I think Kennedy could run a hell of a campaign and get his strength beaten out.
I mean, it could be a tremendous campaign, and when people get into the voting booths, they won't be able to bring themselves to pull that lever.
I mean, Paul Carson, if they have, frankly, I would tend to move to Colorado.
Wouldn't you?
If he wins?
Yeah.
That's unimaginable.
It would really not.
It could scare you, you know.
Look at this little boy getting involved in Ireland.
He would have made the wrong decision there.
He would have made the wrong decision in India.
He'd be wrong about the Soviet.
And he would tend to react emotionally to every goddamn thing there is.
And he'd have left wingers in here running among them.
We have to accept that the Kennedys were a national disaster.
They ran the presidency as if it were a personal possession.
They ran it like this.
They still think of that way, too.
They ran it like Napoleon ran his court.
They're border parties.
They parcel out the country.
And they're the same sort of mentality.
Then, if Kennedy had lived, Brazil would be communist today.
Indonesia would be communist today.
And it would have been a total collapse of our position.
Here's, for example, where Humphrey won a victory in Colton.
That's the CIO.
Four-state stronghold.
When he delivered 80 votes, 40 of them must be 35 that never changed.
So, Kennedy, Humphrey is moving back.
Teddy must be very tempted to let Humphrey act in underage.
If Humphrey gets beaten, who will be left except Teddy in 76?
Here's McCluskey saying he won, urging Wisconsin to give people orders to vote for Lindsey as a clear signal to the nation to stop the massive bombing.
What the hell is the matter with him, McCluskey?
McCluskey, the goddamn guy is a damn fool to me.
But this perhaps caused the tension of the fact that we shouldn't bomb before Tuesday.
That's my point.
So not even Monday.
Well, I agree.
Oh, I hadn't thought of that.
I see what you mean.
I figured that day is through to Wisconsin, but it doesn't.
Why bomb Monday?
I started bombing Tuesday night.
Don't forget the carrier of change.
What do you think?
Why attack the front of Wisconsin primary?
I think it's a mistake.
And that way, also, if we bomb Tuesday night, it will take it.
It will be submerged in the news on Wednesday.
Everyone will be speculating on Wednesday.
on the outcome of Felix.
Oh, sure, they'll be talking about who won.
That's right.
That's right.
Bomb Tuesday night, actually.
We do tell them to have a plan.
But I think we ought to do it and hurry up.
Would you make sure that they give us something more than a half?
Half an hour this time?
Yes.
The old Gabriel Heater said that the reason he used to say that was good news to me.
He said bad news was so overwhelming that I thought someone had to come back.
So I would search the news and stash it or get one and leave it alone.
Remember Gabriel Heater?
I definitely need somebody if I come to that idea.
Yeah.
During World War II.
You know what?
I think the copy-picker that did come out with...
I personally believe, Mr. President, that the man that...
The criticism I would make of us is that we are too gentle to our opponents.
I think the man who affirms...
The decision in 1970 was strong.
We just took it too early.
and perhaps a little bit too long to fight for Americanism.
We got them all to where they had it.
It's like if the economy had... Not bad.
The economy of 1878 wasn't anything less.
It wasn't the so-called Phoenix Week.
That wasn't good.
I mean, that was a terrible thing for Sapphire.
That was...
It wasn't his fault, but they just got a bad take and ran and they shouldn't.
But nevertheless...
We were right.
If we hadn't campaigned, we would have lost some more because the economy was getting the hell out of us.
And we perhaps started a little bit too early, not you, but I, so that the Democrats could react to the issue.
But I think if we affirm the basic American values and attack the others on that ground, I think...
I intend to.
That's what the country is waiting for.
I intend to.
I don't want to do it too early, you know, now.
Oh, now is the coolest.
You see, I'm going to wait until after the elections, frankly, after the Democratic Convention, and they will have a whole montage of bitter, negative, you know, sloppy stuff.
You should be a president.
That's what I'm going to start.
But I may have to tell you a little bit of this.
I'm taking on the negatives, you see what I mean?
Oh, yeah.
Don't you think so?
Absolutely.
Well, I don't think you need to do much during the summer, but right after the Republican convention, I... Well, as a matter of fact, we're going to have to command the news.
I think the time that this is over in the summer, rather than staying here and fighting with the miserable Congress, I think right then that I will start moving through the country, and not on a too heavy a basis, but on the basis of just giving the people some reassurance.
And maybe three days a week.
God damn, you know, we'll get help.
The president gets receptions.
Oh, God, yes.
And after all, you have come off what is almost guaranteed to be a big success in Moscow.
And I can just tell.
And they're playing these negotiations beautifully.
Yeah.
You'll bring it to set with me, as they said.
He went to see Rogers.
And they talked for 30 seconds about solving the state, put out a long flip.
how Rajas had put it into him on salt.
You know, Rajas had said to him, we want SLBMs in salt, one way or the other.
So, to bring and ask him, well, what do you mean?
Rajas said, well, I don't know anything, I'm just telling you.
And to bring and tell him the details that I had told him, our position,
But at any rate, they're playing it in such a way that it's all going to surface at the summit.
It's just as well that the peer states and defense are hitting on SOBMs and that the summit,
that an arms control thing is hard, is hard, and then what we will do is to make an agreement on the other things, and then simply say, and now we have instructed our negotiators to go to work on SLVM.
That's the way to end it.
I'm inclined to think the SLVM should be included.
No, we'll get them included now.
Do we want them included?
Frankly, I don't think we do, but I don't see how we can go against it.
She's so sad.
I think we're going to get it, but I think it's in our interest not to let the Democrats think a hell of a lot is going to come out of Moscow.
Because then they'll... Or make it seem that it's a topic of negotiation.
Because then they think, right now no one has raised any expectations about Moscow.
And the more low-key we can hold it, the better off we are.
Because we're going to have a lot of agreements.
Yeah, particularly keeping it scattered around the government.
And?
The state is aware of the fact that they aren't negotiating trade, I think.
Oh, yeah.
Well, the state frankly doesn't even know trade thing is being negotiated.
Really?
The way that I've said it.
The agriculture must know well.
Yeah, agriculture, they know.
But they aren't negotiating.
No, but it's going over on April 8th.
You see, the thing we have to bear in mind
The state has got this theory that the ambassador negotiates everything.
I have learned from my discontent that the ambassadors are not capable of negotiating most things in these areas.
Now, I've also learned that our agencies are not capable of it.
At least we can control the region.
I may not be able to control the ambassadors.
UK, for example, doesn't give you one.
Drugs.
We're having one hell of a time because the state wants all the things on drugs handled by ambassadors in various countries.
Now, Connolly, of course, wants his regulators to be sort of there on their own, and Mitchell's got some, or Miami's got some justices and so forth.
You know what I mean?
They don't trust the ambassadors in some instances.
Now, in some cases, like Bunker in Vietnam, I want it all under the ambassador.
But in other cases,
Frankly, he's a bastard.
Made me on drugs.
You see my points?
The state is basically oriented as a service agency to the countries to which they are accredited.
You don't defend the nationalists.
Well, you see, you weren't here for the revolution.
I heard when you were out.
I sat there.
Oh, I could see Conley glaring at me.
You know how he feels?
Boo!
Only with the people who kept on chatting and had some, like, some body and kept the owner, you know.
How did you get along?
Oh, very well.
You know, you've seen, you know, maybe you don't have to tell us.
I, uh, it all came up when, first I, I gave him a general rundown of some of the foreign policy things.
Yeah.
Uh.
This is very important for you.
He wanted to do it every week or every two weeks of testing, if he would have, every two weeks.
And I like him.
I honestly do not believe he understands a damn thing about foreign policy.
Who does?
You do.
Oh, no, you understand.
No, no, you have a real instinct for it.
But do you think he's too... Well, I think...
You think about it.
It was interesting, though.
The other night, it was, of course, vitally important to have a little dinner to eat me on stage for a while.
So I put him on.
I put him on.
I put him on.
But nevertheless, his point...
His point is an interesting one to make.
No, his analysis is right.
His solution, how he would do it, he probably wouldn't have, we wouldn't have a friend in the world.
But what I mean is, he says we need a block that stretches from here to Argentina to Japan, Canada, Indonesia.
How would you put these all together?
I mean, the Europeans at least have a common culture.
We don't have a common interest.
Secondly, if that's what he wants to do, it's hard to understand why he brutalizes the Canadians so much.
And if he wants the Canadians as part of our bloc, the policies he's pushing, they absolutely are beside themselves about this.
Now, you have the tactic that when you show the Iron Fist, first of all, you always have a velvet glove over it.
Secondly, when you move, you don't fight with people until you're ready to kill.
And then the thing is done quickly.
He can only argue.
Arthur Croft used to say to me, well, he would go to the war, but if he made a point about McCarthy,
Back in the time that McCartney was doing on Eisenhower, he said, McCartney did a fatal mistake.
He said, you never strike a king unless you kill him.
Of course, that's not the original authority, but that's true of so many people in politics, and it's true of so many people in foreign affairs.
They strike a king and don't kill him, and then the king kills him.
That's the thing that the economy has to have in mind.
And also, why strike anybody unless...
But what do you think...
I mean, right now... Of course, he's got this view, Henry, that it's popular out in Texas and in the country to be anti-American, anti-coronavirus.
But it's popular, though, to win.
And he, after we saved him in the Air Force, he had no...
He was in a total hopeless dreadlock.
I mean, we didn't pay any credit for it.
I think he was.
But... That night, we even had a pump to the ceiling.
Well, but you were talking to Pompidou about the political framework doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether the margin is two and a quarter percent or two and a half or two.
That's only technicians are interested in that.
That wasn't the way.
The fact that you set it in a big framework of cooperation between us and Europe, that gave him the incentive then to settle it.
That enabled me in the night meeting.
And what was my appeal to him?
I said, we have only two choices to work with you or to work with the Germans against you.
That was actually a tougher threat than any country was making.
And I said, we don't want to work with the Germans against you.
And he understood that.
He's scared.
Right now, I take our policy to be to move into a posture from which we can squeeze the Israelis.
But the thing that Roger meant was to get into a big role with them before we were ready to hit.
When we get through with these railways... Also, it's a mistake that he made, that we in the system are very good at living, but the whole bureaucratic state...
I was talking to George Bush about this a minute ago.
The mistake they all make is to look at the tactical situation, put on a big play when they don't know where they know the play is going to come out.
As a result, they not only, they not only eliminate the people they're trying to beat with the play to whip the Israelis, but they lose the confidence of those that they're trying to win for to whip the UAR in Jordan.
I don't like Jordan's reaction.
Jordan should be 100% mistaken.
Jordan knows damn well that I am stronger for the Israelis than Rogers has.
And yet the King of Jordan listens to me.
That is, that to me...
That's the most ridiculous thing we've heard.
The average person, he said, foreign policy is like a play which unfolds inevitably once the curtain is raised.
The average person watches the play.
The thoughtful person realizes that the big decision is whether to raise the curtain.
And that, I think, is a very profound observation.
And it's also a matter of nature.
and wonders what's going to happen next.
He says once the curtain is raised, the plague will unfold inevitably.
It's better for the curtain to be raised than above all else.
And I think that's a very profound observation, and that's been your style in foreign policy.
We have, I really can't think of an initiative we have taken out of here that has failed.
No.
Yes, I think it was useful to have that team talk with the pastor, and how he's got the message.
And he'll go back to the Chinese.
He'll go back to the Chinese.
He knows where they are.
He knows him with the Russians.
And we've got his, now we've got his agreement that we should get along with the Indians, get along with Bangladesh and the rest.
And we, now we can go, we may have pleased knowing that... Well, I'm not doing any trouble.
No, but...
You know, the important point that you made, and I think here's one thing that plays a component, right?
I don't think this is being studied on the animal in the state.
On the bilateral.
The bilateral.
I want a real study of that to get the hell out of these multilaterals.
I want to make clear, Conway is a strong man.
Yeah.
And he's a good man.
So I like that.
His analysis is also right, I think.
His analysis of the common market and of capitalism is right.
His tactics, he has no feel for fun.
Well, he thinks that you can treat foreigners like you treat the average American politician, and if you have enough that he will blow them away.
They don't blow away.
He has some conviction.
I think he's coming back at you.
Well, I'm glad you saw him, because he's got the right instincts.
His employees are dedicated, and the manager, American.
God damn it, there's... Well, you know, another thing, too, Henry.
Like last week, I had somebody put his neck out on food pressures.
Well, for Christ's sakes, I mean, others would probably have been willing, but...
He was... Run, Spell, Schultz, I mean, they're all wonderful guys.
But they would have been a, it would have been like a little drop of water on a hard stone.
Just one drop.
In turn, and when colony hits, it's like a, like a power-driven sledgehammer.
You know, I was thinking, for example, I was thinking of the time since this damn China trip.
Bill, if he had any damn sense,
would have done it.
Marshal Green did it on the, when I, after I talked to Marshal, on that main base on Ancient River.
Bill, to the four weeks in Chicago, should have been out publicly saying what a hell of a great thing it was, instead of really whimpering in his tent, because Stuart Alston, I would have called him, he didn't like it.
You see what I mean?
Where the hell's he been?
He went on for a course before the Board of Regents and the Board of Affairs.
But he was talking more about himself again than about himself.
The point is, rather than that, he should have been out in the country.
He's the Secretary of State.
Mr. President, one has to be careful.
I found out yesterday he was going to go up to the council.
Is he going to the council?
And he insisted on speaking on the record, which is two reasons why it's tough for you to go there now.
because Sandy can have a presence, but he is not in presence before elite groups.
The advertising council people came in and said that it was really awful.
Did he speak for them?
Yes.
How about Hayes?
Well, Hayes did, but a number of them called up and said, thank God we could hear Hayes.
And you know that because we would have been in despair if we had been dependent on the State Department of God.
Is that right?
They said Haig was good.
He always did.
Always impressive.
But they said the writers didn't go.
Why doesn't he get across?
On television, when he comes across, they tell me quite well.
That's true.
I don't see television so many.
I can't judge how he hits the average, but he just doesn't know the subject as it comes across.
Is it convictions?
He doesn't have conviction.
He doesn't have conviction.
He gives this horrible impression of fatuous optimism.
I agree.
Fatuous optimism.
We're doing great all over the world.
We're not the... You see, there's where...
He's the typical liberal, in a sense.
And he shouldn't be.
I don't think he'll even know that.
But the typical liberal is a fatuous optimist.
He really is.
the typical conservative, which I am, and you are.
We're both conservative.
I mean, we would admit it, because why else oppose the liberals?
But my point is, we're conservative in the sense that we know that human nature, and what is the name of the combination of a lot of human natures?
is basically not good at evil.
So what the hell?
If you've got to appeal to men's interests rather than their ideals.
Well, he put a little crap about idealism.
But Henry, you know the reason for the success of the meetings we've had with foreign people is that, I think, I think this is true.
and all the communists.
I think it's true of some of the others.
I don't give them any bullshit about the fact that, look, we love you and all that.
I admit it.
I think the thing that Joe, that we brought up in that little dinner with Mrs. Allen, and if Joe wasn't too much, too tired, he would have gotten enormous support.
So the most important thing that I said
And the entire time that this was when I turned to the old man, which right after that he grabbed my hand and said, I said, look, this is, you don't know me and you shouldn't trust me.
I'm not joking.
He called me yesterday.
He said this was one of the most significant dinners he's attended in Washington.
He must see me immediately because he wants to know what he can ride and what he can't ride.
And he said it was an unbelievable experience.
He said he'd never seen you have so much fire.
Don't you agree now that I can't do the four commissions?
I'm not going to call Robertson.
No, you'd make him look bad, but you can't do it.
I can do it the way I just want him to, with a vehicle up.
And I can prepare, similar to what I did at the Bohemian Grove in 1967, in 1963, yeah, in 1967.
And what I could do with any group of that sort, well, I had my Kansas City briefing in the press, you know.
That Kansas City speech was off the cuff.
You don't know off the cuff, Dave, but you should know that repercussions are on the work of the lieutenant.
It was well done.
Well done.
I don't know why you're objecting, he always tells them, he says, because Bill, we're doing everything you want.
You shouldn't tell Bill Fulbright that.
And you shouldn't tell Mike Mansfield that, because God damn it, we're not doing what they want.
I never told him that.
We are doing what is right, and it happens to be great, and you've got to look them right in the eye and tell them, now look, you do know this, you know how many times I've, during the course, and you do the same thing, but during the course of that meeting with the Chinese, how many times I would start to show them, I said, now, I know you cannot support this position.
I know you disagree with this position, but this is our position, and this is your position.
Instead of like, where I just took on the foreman and just said, well, you haven't been around much.
Well, and also to say, how can you speak about American presence in Asia when you're getting out?
Exactly the wrong thing to say.
It's a cheap debating point and strategically wrong.
You started the session by getting them head on.
These minutes are now coming up.
And I must tell you, they look even more impressive when you read them.
Just as...
Of course, I hadn't realized how much and how well you had talked with Mal, because what you had said was more familiar, and I was more focused on what Mal was going to do.
The same is true of Cho.
I'm going to send these minutes in to you just to glance through and then put them in your book.
The important thing about Henry is that this whole thing was suggested to me.
The reason Tito afterwards apparently had sex
It's so that he goes, you know I gave him no crap.
It was cold steel all the way, wasn't it?
Absolutely.
They were very friendly.
Very friendly.
I used to talk about his cigars and Churchill and how he liked scotch.
Churchill had to drink doctors.
We did a little of that.
We knew that.
But the point is, and here's where our lips come in.
You know, the lips really believe
that human nature, do they really believe that all that, frankly, malarkey changes people?
They must believe it.
See, that's the Roger's approach.
But Rogers, if the Washington Post, if Rogers had any confidence at all,
I know this always sounds as if there is no rivalry because we've got to get through this year now.
We've done already enough for a generation, China.
Russia will be enough for another generation.
And then we lose the election.
We've done our best.
That's what we did.
I'm very close.
But if the Washington Post could do it, they would build rather than the Clark-Leppard administration.
And he played a role.
And it was a pleasure.
In fact, he's tried on a number of occasions.
But he doesn't do his homework.
He's too lazy.
I don't think it's this.
I don't think he likes to sit and concentrate that long.
Well, that's what I'm saying.
And he doesn't read, and he's sort of living about on the surface of everything.
But you take the idea back.
I think you're absolutely right, exactly.
that is coming, sir, and we thought, I think the Indians and the Bangladeshis are hanging after us.
Do you agree or not?
Oh, God, yes.
I've got the Indian ambassador coming in at 1 today.
Thank you.
Yeah.
At his request, I'm having lunch with him.
Well, would you...
I'm going to slam him about that story in Newsweek that they were putting out the Anders and stuff.
That's right.
That's right.
That we're not going to have that.
Now, they need our aid.
You know it.
As a president, by next October, people will say, what India-Pakistan crisis, if the Democrats want to make an issue of it.
It's never been an issue.
Believe me.
I never was worried about it.
I never was worried about it.
I don't think people give a damn about it.
When the history is written, this will look like one of our better maneuvers.
It's the right thing to do.
I mean, you talked to the Chinese.
We were in peace then.
And it shook the Russians.
That is what, for three weeks, it was again where all the liberals told us we were annoying the Russians.
There were two big shocks we gave them, one going to China,
the second going right to the brink over something as trivial as India-Pakistan.
Early in Jordan.
Early in Jordan, but this shock, I mean in the last year.
Right.
From then on, when that, I told you, remember I told you when the Minister of Culture came up to me and said, you really, that's when I was convinced we had won the deeper battle on India-Pakistan.
Yes.
That they were going even more energetically towards us.
Yes.
And, I'll get somebody.
All right.
My point is this.
Coming back first, I can't create a problem.
You better not do it before Tuesday.
I know.
Let's just wait until Tuesday.
But wait, the point is to tell the military that the president doesn't want a response for anything.
He wants a plan on his desk Tuesday to approve.
He might want that so they don't get around that he would delay it for a reason.
I think no more than I want a plan.
That's right.
I cannot, we won't even mention the election.
No, that's the point.
Can't you tell them that I'd like to see a plan?
Well, I think what we have to do is get the plan Monday morning.
Wow.
Approve it Monday afternoon.
That gives them plenty for us.
Would you do that and say that I want to know?
What I have in mind is I particularly want to knock the hell out of those signs that brought down the country.
Well, that's what I, that's how it goes.
And take everything out and our DMC, right?
That part of the DMC, right?
Now, that's near the La Ocean Corridor.
Is that all the same area?
Yes.
Well, we've never hit no three numbers B-52.
What the hell is the reason we can't?
Well, partly now, but... All right.
That's a good reason.
I think that's a good reason.
Thank you.