Conversation 700-007

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I don't know if you're gonna have a little discussion.

I think the, I am not familiar with the line.

I was more familiar with the stop range.

So that seems to have been on the stop range throughout the period of this semester.

So I didn't think it was gonna come up.

So I don't know if you're familiar with it.

I don't know if you're familiar with it.

He's going to scare you.

I think it's apparently what I need to figure out is more than that.

It's personal.

And it's all there, too.

I mean, they're talking around, you know, and fooling with numbers.

Well, I think Larry was personally manipulated.

Richard's very smart.

He's a beast, and he wants us to lose.

And it's a dangerous goddamn situation.

Well, he's smart, and he's also sneaky.

He's a pretty unprincipled type of guy, apparently.

could be saved.

I went over to the Propaganda Department and he said that he had talked to Scali and Ziegler and had told them that the line should be, and he's also going to get in the 1045, I mean at 11 o'clock,

and the others the line should be that that we we we predicts loss of territory and lines bendings we're using that whatever they want also said and so forth that this is the way that because of the enemy's concentrating and strength so that once it comes then we can handle it properly in another way now if you if you like what find you

I mean, the main thing is to be sure Skelly gets in on that.

You know what I mean?

Henry doesn't cut him off.

I don't think he will.

But I think if you want, you can just, you know, you can have Henry, force Henry to meet every day with sailors and scouts, as he went by.

And Klein, when he's around, you know, because Klein's got to go out and handle the line.

Fair enough.

But I want this, for the most part, not handled out of the goddamn White House.

That's the other shirt.

And Ryan's pushing the lines out so that Matt B. says it.

Defense doesn't.

I have no thought that there's lines to be handled at the White House.

I just don't think we have anybody in defense or in Henry's place who has any sense of what the prophet, they delude themselves of propaganda.

And Henry waves his magic wand and says, well, you know, they shouldn't think that.

Whatever it is they think, they should think something else.

That doesn't, you know, I don't keep saying it doesn't work that way.

And you can't...

It's fine, as long as we get some realists in there who are looking into it.

You can't just wish the press weren't there or they'd write it right.

And the press is going to write adverse stuff if we give them a chance.

Now, actually, this... You know, we're not reading college, believe me.

Henry is right in one respect.

Totally right.

This is the time for this to come.

This is the time, believe me.

And also, again, I'll be so honest, and also, it's good when you and I, and I think you've heard that from Henry Carter and another thing.

I don't know if he knows this.

I mean, we feel insuited about crossing the BNB rather than having Gord of the Two do it on Sunday or Saturday night and go down there and say, for Christ's sake, get Rogers and Laird to start yelling about that.

The crossing with the EMC is a violation, you know what I mean?

That's a violation of the understanding and testifies the bombing of an arm, Steve.

Sure.

And, Steve, do you recall about that?

Yes.

One of those so-called understanding concerns.

Now, they came across in force.

That's right.

Great stuff this morning.

That's what they say.

This is an opportunity.

Henry is not unreasonable in dealing with this.

He just doesn't think about it.

This kind of stuff doesn't get into his...

But I had that in mind.

I think the, but I think what you should do, and one of the things about having been through Cambodia, and also Cambodia we handled pretty well, and we finally got a man, we used to do it every morning, you know, and get those then counts of how many rockets, blah, blah, blah, and so on, are all interesting.

Laos, we didn't because we didn't keep on top of it.

Well, our business strategy on Laos was wrong.

It was conscious, really.

I mean, we thought we were doing, and I certainly agree with you, doing a good job in locating it.

We did do a good job in locating it.

The result was that weekend, the March 31st weekend, right?

Yeah.

Remember that one?

Yeah.

Okay.

Now...

This is a very different situation.

There are no Americans.

We're not going to have a significant increase in American losses.

not significant in the sense of going from, you know, an increase of 100 losses, but the multiple is going to be greater than it was in Cambodia or Laos.

And that passage would use that.

It won't get anywhere, maybe.

I don't think it's going to get anywhere.

All right.

But there's still...

But I agree it's a problem.

Let's take those from 20.

Let's say you get 20.

You might want to try it.

Which is not unlikely.

Well, there's 90 if you get those helicopters in there.

We have, it looks like we have eight now.

So, this week?

Well, over the weekend, as I understand it.

Yeah.

So, if you've done a bomber, and you've got the same, it's a bomber, you've got a problem.

So, your casualties go down to 20?

So, they go up to 20.

So, what's the difference?

Except that you'll get one of those ships on there that'll say, 10 times the speed inside of Vietnam this week than the last, which is a good measure of the progress of Vietnamization.

You know, we just gotta, they won't deny, they ain't get much farther than that.

But how it comes out is what matters.

And the main thing is to have it come out right.

Also, fight the propaganda battle as well as we can.

I think you, Kissinger, and don't have too many, if I can strongly urge you.

If you, Kissinger, Scali, Ziegler, and Ziegler and Klein, that's all.

Klein really doesn't have much.

Well, they don't have, I think it's you work it out and you cover it for them.

And that's how we're lying, because lying doesn't contribute.

Well, I just suggested that to Henry, saying he would raise some questions.

But his questions, it's really kind of pathetic.

His clients' questions weren't even correct to the subject.

That's not true.

He had one good question.

One very good question.

It's hard to break people down.

I don't know who are breaking them down.

Scallops.

Well, it's interesting what the press is going to get.

And as the...

That's right.

I'm not, in any way, I don't think we've got any problem, except what we've created for ourselves by wishing that it would go the way it ought to go.

I mean, right at the moment, the story, the story of how the Malibu was forgotten, it'd be fine.

The outcome could be fine.

But a lot of us didn't.

It sure was.

It wasn't what it should have been.

And we did get screwed militarily by our own people.

We had a hell of a struggle today.

This one has Bob Ellington pointed out.

Has Bob Ellington pointed it out?

But who reads Bob Ellington?

A few thousand people and a few million people see every night just crack one TV.

That's the only thing I know.

You're right.

Do you want me to tell Henry that I want to sit in on the VR group each weekday?

What do you call it?

Oh, yeah, if it comes up.

Well, if it comes up, hell, I've got to bring it up.

You know how it is with Henry.

So we ought to take a few minutes each day to review the propaganda.

Okay.

Offensive.

It's at least as important as the military one at this point.

I've been talking about this for a while.

Yeah.

The meat prices.

It's not bad either.

Do other things.

Borough policy area, Bob.

Even though we pick a whack, as we know, because of what happened to the models in the foreign policy area, we know that well.

We're a family.

I mean, there's nobody that can even lay a blow on us.

And we're going to go to Russia after this one.

That's something that we're going to have some good announcements.

The main thing is these people can't lose.

And, uh, Lawrence got to that point today.

I'd like to tell you, too, it's not that we haven't done our part of the piece, and the weather has been good about this point, but, uh, I also think that if they, if they can come in there and create pretty good blood, you know, but I know as an officer, it's always going to be our arranged thing.

And I'm not going to put you to the side.

But then, very fortunately, you just get out there and, uh, well, you can practically saturate the compound.

You know, really, I think with the... Yeah, it's almost incredible that they get away with moving tanks in, in tent columns and stuff like that, because that should be sitting up type stuff.

Yeah, nobody comes to that damn history thing anymore.

I think we've almost got a case for saying we're stopping it.

Who is it?

I've got thousands coming.

Oh, I don't know.

Maybe they get the nut in front of you.

It's dropped off.

I think it's all there.

I don't know.

It's a hell of a lot of work, you know, big houses.

I didn't know there was a building, a band center, that army band playing out there.

There's a couple other kids.

There aren't as many kids as there are band members.

And now here comes a Marine band head to take over.

Where in the name of God are they?

I'm just kind of...

You know, part of the reason maybe it's a damn cold.

I'm sure that is part of it.

But another part is that it is...

I've been talking about this for a while.

Yeah.

Remember the meat prices.

It's not bad either.

Do other things.

The borer policy area, Bob.

Even though we pick a whack, as we know, because of what happened to the models, the foreign policy area, we know that well.

We're apprehending.

I mean, there's nobody that can even lay a blow on us.

And we're going to go to Russia after this one.

It's something that we're going to have some good announcements.

The main thing is these people can't lose.

And, uh, Lawrence got to that point today.

I'd like to tell you, too, it's not that we haven't done our bit of these, and the weather had been a little up to this point, but, uh, I've also come back to different states, and they can come in there and create pretty good blood.

I know those bombs are always going to be on a rampage thing.

They're going to knock them, but you just have to be very fortunate and just get out there and, uh, well, you can practically saturate the company.

You know, really, I think with the... Yeah, it's almost incredible that they get away with moving tanks and tent columns and stuff like that, because that should be sitting up type stuff.

You know, nobody comes to that dance or anything anymore.

I think we've almost got a case for saying we're stopping it.

We've got thousands coming, don't we?

Oh, I don't know.

Maybe they do, but not in front of me.

It's dropped off.

I think it's all there.

I don't know.

There's a hell of a lot of work, you know, big houses.

I know there's a building, a band center, an army band playing out there.

There's a couple other kids.

There aren't as many kids as there are band members.

And now here comes a Marine band head to take over.

Where in the name of God are they?

I'm just kind of...

You know, part of the reason maybe it's a damn cold.

I'm not sure about this part of it.

But another part is that it isn't really that much of a deal.

Yeah.

When I had this team, I remember we talked about it before, didn't you bring the people together?

I'm just thinking of the pattern of establishing these things.

Did you go before, or how did you go to Henry's office?

Well, a lot of us, I went down to the Wesleyan meetings.

Oh, yeah.

I wasn't going to do that.

That was a disaster.

That doesn't sound any useful.

I wasn't going to do that because that irritates him, but that's his little thing.

Well, he wanted me to then.

That was kind of his game plan.

But that didn't serve our purpose.

It doesn't matter what gets into it.

There just ought to be somebody who is an operational understand what the story is.

Well, actually, I think you could be on it.

And the main thing is that you and Henry won't listen to Ziegler and Scallion enough.

But you can just ride the hell out of them.

And, of course, I'll be riding them.

I'm digging the PR things all the time.

I gave Henry about four things yesterday that haven't occurred to him.

The press out of the goddamn area and a few other things, you know.

Yeah, but... Well, you're sure, right?

I've got to look at the workers up there with their cans, because they're still there.

They're up.

Well, there's some of them.

They're gonna... You can't keep them out of everything, though.

God, now they're running a revolutionary event.

You know, Bob, in a sense, crisis, crisis, crisis.

What the hell?

All the office really is.

I don't know if we didn't have this, how Schultz would be here this morning saying the supplemental for 1973.

This is a very, very great crisis.

It's really the goddamn truth.

If you don't have one, they're going to create it, isn't it?

People have to live by battles.

And that's particularly true of our time.

I think we have lived in a time when, because of the media and the rest, everything has blown up out of all portions.

You know, one good thing about this, in a sense, is that it could precipitate a settlement.

Oh, boy.

We've got the best of all worlds, because, uh, I'm just, uh, I'm just, uh, I'm South Vietnam, best of this planet, and I just want to keep, basically, the Delta, the Saigon, and the rest.

They want to precipitate a good settlement to get the goddamn thing down over to the finish.

I don't know that we'd be that lucky.

Well, that's at least a chance at this point.

Well, I think there is some chance.

I have very little confidence, frankly, and I think Haight agrees with me on anything.

But anyway, I have very little confidence that Henry's, you know, rolling over to Paris again.

Did you?

I think Haight does agree with me on that.

But I just thought, oh, here he goes again, you know, starting them off, and he thinks everything's going to matter.

Yeah, we know about life.

That's what I did for the weekend Saturday.

He was saying, well, we mustn't do it.

We want to hold off any bombing in the DMZ area until after he had a chance to see the Chinese on Tuesday and so forth.

He said, because of our...

This whole site.

was understandable.

He just holding onto his left one, thinking maybe this is the one where they're going to negotiate.

They are going to negotiate at this point.

I mean, they weren't.

Now, they may because of the fact that we're getting close to the point, but how many times have you heard, not over the last year, not over the last two years, but the last two and a half years, said, we've got them coming?

It's like running for the wire.

We're almost there.

This is the last three and a half years.

Because he was saying in April, three years ago, the last three years, in 1969, he was talking about, you know, if he's obsessed by it, I really think we're going to pull this together in a negotiation.

And, of course, it's always the excuse from the Congress to Rodgers.

Rodgers got the State Department and the State Department said, I believe, and this and that and the other thing.

On the other hand, on the plus side, we handled the goddamn war extremely well.

You'd think that we would handle it in a way that we haven't in a way that it would rob you.

And, you know, goddamn Americans the hell out.

You're going to decide you've got a chance to survive.

It's an amazing thing.

For sure.

So we'll keep out of the day.

We'll get ahead of it all day and all night.

We've got to calm down.

That's the only certainty.

If we have any such, we'll do it.

He can't go.

We just won't send anybody.

They were going to have the thing anyway.

So we'll just do what's out there.

Alert for them.

And rockets for them.

And peace.

Okay, we'll see what he comes up with next week.

It's a, it's really a Jewish day, you know, it's a pretty sick, not a bad thing.

The way I have to do it, and I just can't bring myself to do it, is to all in it.

You know, I've done it every time.

Say, look, Ross, what do you think about this?

I just don't think I'll do it this time.

What do you think?

You shouldn't have to do that, Scott.

I mean, they should be having some ideas.

It's kind of ridiculous.

You know, you think we should have tried to get Rodgers and Laird in the North Office and so forth, but...

God, they never had anything.

They never do.

They just muttered that what we're really trying to do is run it.

I mean, they really do, you know, they do.

But then, I can't say, and a lot of this, you know, is going to have a press conference.

This is going to go on for a while for the purpose of announcing the State Department, the State Department announced the recognition of Invisash, and a lot of, and how much we've been doing for them.

Well, for Christ's sakes, I mean, does he want to set the State Department off against the White House on that issue?

You notice that that's why Lieberman got me out?

On the order to leave?

The State does that to us all the time.

I think it was the Negro who had to do the same to us.

He's done.

giving up money to other people.

So we're going to recognize that.

I don't know how many people want to hear a damn about it.

But at least we've got just a minute.

Rather than having it played as, well, the State Department finally won out, which they would play over and over again.

That's right.

You've got to use, you've got to use leaks a little more often.

It's a very effective device.

Yeah?

Our enemies, you know, they leak this and that.

Get one out of that.

Well, if you can get the, if you can get the, and let me know as soon as you can, if we can get some good general statements made about Catholic education,

I need that right of hand.

I've already been stuck in the forest.

Then we could do it on Thursday.

And I can't do it on Thursday.

We can't.

We can do it any time this week, up to three o'clock on Thursday.

If I did it, I would do it by dribbling around in the morning.

Because I don't have to go to Florida.

If I go, I would not go thirsty, that's for sure.

But what I would do then would be to go out there and do that and then come back here and do the... spend the morning here.

And I, as I think of it at the moment, I must do the, we'll, we'll, we'll just play it without getting, not noticing anybody, don't even breathe, just say we're telling, tell us everyone we can't take it, that's it, we're telling them.

For this week?

Yeah, yeah, these years, we just said it on this one.

So let's let that be the current line so that everybody can fill it up.

And I can check it.

I find the weather's good there and everything.

And about Friday at noon, I'll go down.

I'll give you the rest of Friday and Saturday and Sunday.

And that, I don't think will present any particular problem unless the situation out there is much worse.

That sort of a crisis atmosphere.

You see, if it is, then I've got to stay here.

You should read it.

Yeah.

Well, I don't even read that, but I see the point.

I don't think you do that.

You have a clear-cut communication system.

Well, unless you're in the, you know, everything's going up in flames, when it does actually, that isn't going to happen.

I think you've got such a clearly established position that you can run things from where you are, and especially in the corner of California where you've got bases, that whether you're here or not is inherent.

Well, it's Friday, and also that you don't go down to the Situation Room and call every bum shot.

Tell me.

But Friday could be the day to do it.

I don't think I should go on Thursday.

I don't want to do that.

I know I can't do it.

I should try to get up.

The mall's easy.

I'm just... At this point, it doesn't fit.

But I think I can do it Friday.

Friday at noon.

Pretty well, pretty easily.

That's a pretty good part of the day that I've got there, too.

We've got Henry's put back and I've turned down twice now.

Another four?

No, he's not.

Ambassador Ingersoll.

And I saw him.

Yeah, but seeing him again.

Well, what they say is that when you saw him in January, you said you wanted to sit down and talk with him for an hour and an hour and a half before he departed.

Oh, for Christ's sake, that was never the truth.

He said talk to him.

I'm not going to talk to him for an hour and a half, Christ's sake.

What are they recommending then?

They want...

Well, they wanted an hour to an hour and a half.

No, I don't know, sir.

That's absolutely not wrong.

And what they're suggesting, though, is to reconsider the basis of the 30-minute appointment.

They also wanted Rodgers and Marshall Green to accompany him.

They're now arguing that it's a... because of Henry's trip to Japan, this is now all the more important.

I don't know why.

So put it on the basis that he sits down and he's had his hour and hour in hand with Rogers and Green, history and all that.

He's done that, he's had his consequences.

And I don't see any reason for Rogers and Green to come here.

I'd rather see him alone.

I prefer to do it that way, he is the ambassador.

And he can come in with Henry.

But it's got to be 30 minutes, okay?

Explanation.

I'm very involved in this, you know, getting on situations with him.

He's had his consultation.

Yeah, he's covered that, and this is... Has he covered Henry?

Good.

I'm willing just to build him up with my own arm, build him up symbolically with doing the arms of the Force and everybody else like that.

That's all I have to say.

But I hope there are no more archmasters.

But we're not fighting anymore, thank God.

We've got one.

U.S. with him?

Uh, Butts, yeah, I don't know.

No, that's because he's going to sell the union before he leaves today.

No, I don't see any point in that.

No point in that.

Plus, besides our efforts to boost U.S. exports, but... No.

You got, yeah.

Butts is, Butts is really, really doing everything he can.

I, I see nothing to be gained by that.

And it's a bet.

Sure, yeah.

It's a bad story in terms of who prices Bob.

I want to check this with Mitchell.

I think J.D.

is resigning.

He wants to pay a farewell calling and I'm in for that.

I want to be sure Mitchell agrees to our motion.

I think we want to do that, but I don't know what you mean because it gets us a call on the trail.

I just want to be sure there's no, no, that J.D.

and J.D.

have been involved since the century.

And I guess there's no primary problem there, is there?

No, there's no primary problem.

If there is, I'd be for him anyway.

Okay, so we should go.

He's the only one in this chamber.

Just call Mitchell.

Always on the most with farming.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Pull him into the fire, too.

Okay.

Now, we're ready to move on the Federal Reserve appointment, and we're going to have to do the exercise of Arthur coming in with the others.

With the others.

That's right.

And he's here now.

It's down to two people.

Everybody wants one guy, except Arthur who wants the other, but Arthur has said the popular choice is acceptable to him, but it's not his first choice.

He's going to have to come up with his thing.

The guy he wants is an old guy who is malleable.

The guy our guys want is a young guy.

He's too hot for that.

We put him in disrupt things for a while and then move him to something else in the administration.

So you're going to have to let Arthur go through his exercise, and Conley agrees this should be done.

Conley agrees, okay.

Yes.

Good.

Show that to Mark, too.

Get that over with.

And then...

But, but Dinger saw last, so that by the end of the day, so by 12, so I, if I do happen to go over to the head of army and put him at 12, so that he can, and I can get rid of him at 12, or if I can use him in case, in case, I don't know, I don't know how long he may have to live, but I know that between him and having me, I can solve this matter perfectly.

I'll give you what he needs.

Okay.

Fine.

Let's get all that stuff out of the way for a while, till we can.

Sorry to cut you off.

Okay, let's do the other way, right here.

And that'll be how it ends.

Anything else?

I don't know, I haven't had a chance to look yet, but let's see what we got here.

National Forest Explorers, we won't do.

What?

Explorer Scouts National Presidents to give you a gavel.

No, sir, thank you.

Presentation of your first environmental awards.

Oh, I guess I shouldn't say it.

You can't do those.

I think maybe these are the ones you want to do.

No, no, no, I understand.

I understand.

I understand the deal is that, you know, I know everybody says I should do more in the environment, so maybe I do it.

Okay.

But on the other hand, Bob, you know what you can run into with environmentalists?

Eaters.

Yeah, he's certain.

And I've just got to be all goddamn sure that I don't have some goddamn decent guy come in and say, I wish you'd stop defoliating me.

I'm not going to risk it.

This is a thing Julie's involved in.

Maybe we'll just have Julie deal with it.

I really feel I should stay out of it.

I just think I'm very much afraid of that.

Julie's the ad hoc chairman of the advisory committee.

Oh, I see they're going to bring them.

Or they're going to announce the membership of the advisory committee at the same time, which is a good idea.

The only thing I'm concerned about is if environmentalists do have a problem now.

They do, they really do.

They're going to bring their school principal and their science teacher.

That's a good one for Julie to do.

Except it's your awards program, then.

I'll be looking into it.

That's what I want to announce this year.

Why the hell couldn't she do it here at this office?

in a condition we've never been in.

That's perfectly all right.

My father's been, uh, in Philadelphia today.

It's next week, not this week.

Well, let's see what at the end of next week, sir.

Okay.

I want to show out there more actors than there are audiences.

Still.

What's up?

I've got another idea out there.

You know, there ought to be 10,000 out there.

It's a hell of a show.

There aren't very many out there.

What the hell's the matter with Washington?

There's a lot of people coming.

Maybe the afternoon is a big deal.

You know, the real iron that we can't let it out of the top of the IT&T thing is this, and it's certainly true.

Justice, and I mean Mitchell, Clint East, and obviously Leclerc, they were the ones that were taking the harder line on IT&T all the time.

It was only here that the pressures came in, you know, when John and all the fellows met here, and they were doing exactly what they should have.

Connelly, Ed, you know, and Plattigan, etc.

They got over it early and said, we've got to get these people in line.

But the pressure was reduced from here, so we've got to remember that it isn't justice.

in response to all the responsibility in that respect.

No, not on the Tony Gannon.

No, sir.

Well, what I meant is, it was a good sentence, but my point is, the irony is that Justice Hands is totally blaming this.

Justice wanted to be tougher and had a trust in the administration.

That's frankly the truth.

Tougher than our policy, that our policy was determined.

They wanted to go harder than that policy.

McLaren, well it was really McLaren wanted to, and McLaren was sitting by the way, and frankly Mitchell, one of these were backing him.

So that's what it came down to.

And frankly there was a hell of a fight.

You recall, Connelly led it.

Connelly was fighting it, not leading it.

Stantz was fighting it.

Peterson, I must say, in his office was fighting it.

Flanagan, of course, was the main one because it was his job.

I guess the main one, but he was, yeah, I think so.

Earl, of course, had to take it because it was a legal matter.

But they were excited.

There wasn't any damn question about it.

And they were right.

I can't figure out what the hell governor McGovern on that, what he was saying about it.

Do you think he just had bad information?

Someone must have given him a thumbs up.

But to retract it with a hand thugger, he must have, do you think he just got emotional and overstated the damn thing?

He knows they have, well, no major corporation didn't pay taxes.

That's the most ridiculous goddamn thing you could ever imagine.

An individual money.

But he apparently felt he had some leak.

He must have had some.

He said it was in the file.

It might mean a Kennedy people plan.

He said there must be an interlocking between Kennedy's McGovern staff.

So, they said this was in the SCC file.

Maybe they're trying to blow that one.

Maybe that's what they're trying to do.

You know they want to get that file out?

Yeah.

And maybe, uh, that was, it might have been a device.

Could be.

I don't know, they might have been shooting or something else.

There's a candidate looking to pick it up.

Boy, would I come to the show if I didn't get here.

Of course, this isn't just Washington.

This is Manhattan.

Kids.

Yeah.

Oh, there's not many out there now.

Oh, yeah, there are.

They ought to be building up now.

Or they seem to be moving from various places to places.

They ought to change the show, you know, the Easter Bunny and the bands and the marching boys.

It's getting a little windy now.

You'll need an hour.

Go down here.