Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on National Catholic Education Association

5:17in my view, was, uh, Rosio.
5:20It's too bad that his party was so small.
5:22But if Rosio, Rosio was the kind of a man Italy needed in the 60s, and, uh, but he was, you know, the Secretary General, but if he could have gone back, but they never had that strong power figures.
5:36Don't you think he would have done it then?
5:39Well, they don't have any party, really, that is strong enough to govern.
5:43or any personality that .
5:45The other one I think could have run the thing.
5:50Of course, if he had had the power of a surrogate, he was a strong man.
6:11But, you know, the French president, the Italian president has called.
6:15Yes, he's not much forward, not hard, not hard.
6:18A little more of an influence.
6:20He talks to everybody.
6:22But Sargent was a strong man, a good man, a good man.
6:30But, well, maybe you can go down there.
6:31Seriously, I don't know.
6:33I don't know.
6:34I don't know.
6:35I don't know.
6:37Seriously, I don't know.
6:39I'm not sure.
6:42I know him well.
6:44Well, I suppose the question is whether, at this point, take another language.
6:51Nobody trusts him.
6:52Nobody trusts him?
6:54Not at this point.
6:55That's what we hear from the Italians.
6:58Yes, I said because I read these things, because I don't know enough of which Italian police, and I have to learn the language.
7:05I know some Italian, but very little.
7:09So at the time I was a siesta, I tried to brush up my Italian.
7:12Yeah, yeah.
7:15Well, you're a... Yeah.
7:16I was thinking about your residence.
7:22Oh, that's a wonderful place, Mr. President.
7:24It's called Palazzo Farnese.
7:27It was Pope's residence at the Renaissance time.
7:30It was built by Michelangelo.
7:33One of the things about it...
7:37It's a beautiful place.
7:41That's what you forget about my wife.
7:43Yes, yes.
7:44This is twice or three times as large as I remember seeing this.
7:49But anyway.
7:51Charles has been a good friend of the United States.
7:54Yeah, well I want you to know that we are aware of that.
7:57We are aware that through the crises we've had, we've been abused.
7:59I've been here before, of course.
8:02But that you haven't.
8:04We're very grateful for that.
8:09We're grateful for your friendship.
8:10And I'm also very glad that after the period that I was here, we got the French-American relationship reestablished on a proper basis.
8:20We did it really by grasping it early, you know, that it's a visit from President de Gaulle that he came and turned the thing around.
8:29And also the opportunity of a very good relationship.
8:34I'm sure he will be going back in time.
8:36Yes, let's see.
8:38My very best wishes.
8:40I'm very close.
8:41As you know, we have very close contact with him.
8:45Well, yes.
8:45And he's been extremely helpful to us on our diplomatic ventures and other matters as well.
8:52And we appreciate that.
8:54And we think it's very important to continue to
9:01But it changed completely when you sued De Gaulle.
9:06It was a complete change.
9:10Remember at the airport, I'll never forget, he said, I accept, I will go.
9:17And everybody was so thrilled about the possibility of his visit to this country.
9:21And then came, of course, his election, which was the right thing for him.
9:25Very clever and very much a sense of destiny.
9:31And then he knew he probably was dead.
9:34And that was all.
9:37I remember flying from Florida over to the General.
9:40A great moment there was one that I, that many will not forget because there was so much shuffling around and so forth, but it was, we were leaving the cathedral, and I was leaving, and of course we were milking and pushing and everything, and walking down, a great organ struck up in the March of May.
9:58It was a great feeling, you know.
10:01The French people have been deeply moved by the President when he went to Paris for this occasion.
10:08I must say, if I dare to say so, they have great admiration for the foreign policy.
10:27Which is your trade to China as well, you see.
10:31But we'll charge very much of it.
10:35Well, no, we have now, we have another problem with Vietnam.
10:41We will act accordingly, very strongly.
10:47Yes.
10:47And I think we will slip through.
10:49And then comes the Russian trip, which will also be important.
10:56This whole period is one where great opportunities must be seized because we allow things to drift.
11:06The time will pass in which we can do anything about the course of world events.
11:16I know the Secretary of State is going to .
11:18We want to be sure that prior to the Russian trip, that the major European, we can't see them all.
11:28I, of course, have seen them in January, December, January.
11:34He will go, I guess, to the major capitals, the four major capitals.
11:46Henry, as you know, is going to Japan.
11:50He may be taking some other trips, too.
11:55We never know.
11:56I never know where he is.
11:57I can't keep track of it.
11:59I never know he's there.
12:01Be sure he gets some good telephone numbers before I go wrong.
12:06I hope, by the way, when you come to Rome, if it's not too secret, you will let me know.
12:12Unfortunately, there's never anything political going on in Rome.
12:15I'd like to go see the Pope.
12:17Yes, I'd like to go.
12:18Yes.
12:19Well, I tell you one thing.
12:24We are all working in the same cause.
12:26Yes.
12:27I think I was reading last night some of the accounts of the poor Orgo and the terrible, terrible sacrifices
12:40made by the French and the Germans.
12:45That's right.
12:46And for nothing.
12:47I mean, there was no real issue in 1914.
12:48There was no issue.
13:10Well, Frank wanted us to...
13:10Yes, he wanted us to do it.
13:11He wanted us to do it.
13:36He wanted us to do
13:38Let's think a little country, you know, nice people, but, you know, here they are, and somebody, some crazy fellow shoots the Archduke, and then... Well, actually, after the assassination of the Archduke, everybody went on vacation.
13:52The French president went on a ship to St. Petersburg.
13:57Yes, one government was in St. Petersburg.
13:58One government went to St. Petersburg, the German emperor went to Norway, and to the Fjords.
14:04The German chief of the general staff went to Karlsbad.
14:10In other words, there were no leaders available until July 20th.
14:15The only ones whose leaders were available were the Austrians, unfortunately.
14:19They used it to give an ultimatum to Serbia.
14:24It was a fatality.
14:26It was a fatality.
14:31Well, we will, as a matter of fact, Henry, you will be able to, when you do get over, I make a decision.
14:37But if we do, you can be sure to remember you're there.
14:42And I would appreciate your keeping in close touch, if you would, with our ambassador.
14:46Yes, sir.
14:47I don't know any person in the person who will be my...
14:50He's a very intelligent fellow.
14:52Not a very great social fellow, but he's very intelligent, knows things.
14:57And I think that you...
14:59Because we all have an interest in a strong village.
15:03I mean, we really have, keeping that country from...
15:07I mean, they're such fine people, but just that lack of leadership is what they need.
15:11And there might be a coup there if this chaos continues.
15:16Either the right or the left.
15:19Let's hope the guy is the right.
15:20Yes, I have a man called Almirante.
15:22He was the former minister of Mississippi.
15:33I want to give you, bring on one of those little ashtrays.
15:45This is just a treatment for this.
15:46We have little loss of the little ashtrays of the presidential sealant that you put in your drawing.
15:55But we, this is the
16:03We are very proud to have known you over these years.
16:06We will meet again.
16:08This is what it is.
16:09See, it's a little, it's just not, it's very interesting.
16:12See, that's the President's seal, which is their signature.
16:17Oh, you got it done.
16:19Oh, wait a minute.
16:23We'll send you the picture, too.
16:26We'll send a picture to the ambassador.
16:28On the way back.
16:41Well, their only place is Tehran.
16:44And beyond that, not in Europe.
16:45Probably not in Europe.
16:47Because Rogers will see it will be a tornado.
16:49Yes, of course it will be a tornado.
16:53I can't get involved with that.
16:54That's our only plan present there.
16:56Of course, there are all sorts of invitations out there.
16:59We won't even know where it's going to go.
17:06Thank you.
17:07And our best wishes to you.
19:40Uh, well, I will, uh, see if I can get this out of your head.
19:54Just a second, Mr. Maxwell.
19:55This is Mason, Mr. Maxwell.
19:57He's here to see you.
19:58We're waiting on issues.
19:59Wait a minute.
20:59Yes, how are you?
21:00Good, how are you?
21:04How have you been?
21:29Are you living in Mississauga?
21:31Yes, I'm still living in Mississauga.
21:33Yeah, yeah.
21:35And I remember the last time I saw you, you were at least on the left from some of the streets in New York.
21:42Yes, yes.
21:43And about 61 was the front of it there.
21:45That was just before you started your campaign.
21:48Yeah, around 67, I think.
21:5187 or 68.
21:53Well, I wanted to say that I had just...
21:55I don't know how many times...
21:59I'd like somebody, would you like some coffee, tea, Coca-Cola?
22:04Coffee would be nice.
22:05Yeah, fine, coffee.
22:09I'll just invite somebody.
22:12Not for the purpose of interviewing, that sort of thing.
22:16You can't, obviously you wouldn't catch that anyway.
22:24But I've been very interested in rereading
22:31which I sent around to some of the staff, because I thought it was quite relevant to some of our modern problems.
22:39But the, which was your second little audit, you know, I say little, but very, you know, certainly my program, the Conservatives.
22:52And I, I wondered how relevant you think it is
23:00I realized how, even though that was, well, it was in the early years of the Eisenhower regime, after the period was over, the recession on the large came before and first, but it was by a very narrow margin.
23:24But you were able to see there some of the problems that were coming up.
23:37But I'd like to hear Tommy just kind of talk on the top of your head, if you will, as to how you see .
23:59Mr. Kirk is a very rare person.
24:02Very rare.
24:03He is a newspaper man, but conservative.
24:09Can you believe it?
24:10I just said it.
24:11I said, listen, I believe it.
24:24But I think perhaps of all the things that I've read the
24:30Your analysis of the modern American education, particularly college education, the critique is the most devastating.
24:52The trend away from excellence.
24:57I suppose that you
25:00We, as I, in this connection, there isn't anybody that has any answers.
25:02I was getting this busting message out and I had to put in something under compensatory education and I have to show this to Richard and the rest of us because of their work.
25:19And that's what we can't prove.
25:21And I said, well, I don't think it will.
25:23I said, I don't think, I'm not sure that it will.
25:25They said, the only problem is we're not sure.
25:27We're sure what we have won't, so we've got to try.
25:33But talk a little about the education and what you, are you a little more hopeful now?
25:40Is there any good happening in the educational front these days?
25:43The college, the campus accrues some, but is that just a temporary?
25:49Let me start it off by saying my daughter is married to a Harvard Law school student.
25:55She makes an interesting observation that the Students for a Democratic Society had a convention here last weekend.
26:14She said they had come full circle.
26:17It was on racism.
26:19And that's where they all came in in 1963 and 64.
26:22And then they went through the war and all that business.
26:24And then the environment.
26:26Now it's racism again.
26:28You know, this kid and the other.
26:31But go ahead.
26:32Give me some of your feelings.
26:35Well, Jeff, let's go keep breaking in.
26:38Sanguine by temperament, I suppose, although customary to that principle.
26:42But in the, in education, and I thought it was the chief, the chair of the Sanguine Church, but the chief cause of chervilness is the, there are a great many people now concerned about it.
26:52And one of the studies we had 20 years ago, that they didn't know something was wrong.
26:59And the beginning to think in terms of something other than quantity, if we all love terms of quantity, until very recently, we've seen that all it means is more money, more books, more money in the balance.
27:12So, of course, the more quantity there was, the worse things got in terms of quality.
27:18So, in terms of paid quality, quantity automatically would solve the question.
27:22So, I find this a response to the columns of my writing of education.
27:26I doubt it's of very large interest in the
27:30In vocational, graduate education, the question might go in a rather unhealthy way.
27:38That interest might simply be inclined equal toward the virtual abolition of liberal education and the substitution of .
27:48In one sense it's needed.
27:50In one sense it's needed.
27:52It doesn't make any sense to take .
28:01who are black, who are white, et cetera, et cetera, people of modest mental capabilities, and tell them, one, you should be sitting behind the desk.
28:12And also, it just makes sense to not at least give them the training to make some reasonable contribution to society, and also so that they can be reasonably happy in whatever they do.
28:24I've often said some of the, and I said, you know,
28:29I want somebody that can change tires, because I used to change tires when I was working in service stations.
28:35I can't do it now, but I'm very happy.
28:37I'm always going to need a good tire changer or a plumber or a fellow that can fix the car or a fellow that can repair the damn television or something of that sort.
28:47You know, these things are all important.
28:49We must, of course, allow education to become so pragmatic and oriented toward the material that loses its
28:57It could do that, but I don't.
29:07I think the problem we have at the present time is the establishment.
29:13When I look at the NEA, when I see these squads come in here, and I hear them, and I talk to the public education, it's a frightening thing.
29:22Yeah, well, they talk about it.
29:23More money.
29:24They never talk about how.
29:25They never talk about what they're going to change.
29:28They never talk about how they're going to improve this or that or the other thing.
29:30They just want more dough, and none of it.
29:34There is the misconception, doesn't it?
29:38This year, I've been invited to speak at two different state conventions of elementary school principals.
29:46And these people are... School principals.
29:49They tend to be more sensible.
29:51They realize that you need some kind of ethical instruction on campus.
29:57This is the first time I've seen in my life, in all the writing about education, they've invited me.
30:01And they ask me to look for alternatives to what they get from the ADA.
30:07some side note there.
30:10But again, what can be done in the way of occasional training?
30:14That's what really has to be done, mostly outside of the school, or something inside of it.
30:22Those students who want to get out, and ones who are about to be allowed to get out, it's part-time, in apprenticeship programs.
30:29That's where it comes, and it operates at another level, at college, too.
30:34Many are in college,
30:36We need to want some kind of training, but there's not a particular training in college, or at least not a full-time college.
30:41You need to have at least time in college to get some kind of apprenticeship or in-service training program.
30:47But of course, there are all the artificial obstacles in the way.
30:51There's the regulations, and of course,
30:54post-retendance laws in the present form, and all that sort of thing, and the need to release time from school.
31:03What we have now is a special account, there's a great mass of young people who were there.
31:07I haven't finished reading some of them.
31:09I'll write it there, except that's not the thing to do.
31:15They had no leader.
31:17It'll actually work on vocational, technical, and college.
31:20Therefore, they're out on the board.
31:21Therefore, they'll follow anybody.
31:23Any company that comes out over here says they're ready for the board.
31:25That's what it all amounts to.
31:27The ideology is superficial.
31:28They'll follow anybody.
31:31They don't get anything in the classroom.
31:32They get nothing from the spires and so forth.
31:35So they've got to find something to go out and do to make it all relevant.
31:39The only way to be relevant is to go out and burn a bank, right?
31:42That's relevant.
31:44Or go to a march in the White House or something for $6,500 to, I don't know, 30,000 or $4,000 or something like that.
31:53I used to be a consultant, first of all.
31:55For the time being, I was really troubled by the virtual abolition of the draft.
32:00That was the only real practical agreement that they had.
32:04They were really very excited to move up in the NFL.
32:07Boy, that was what they talked about.
32:09It was a personal concern.
32:11A personal sense of guilt, perhaps, of the draft.
32:15And we all understand that.
32:16Some of them were too, but there's been a great number of people who have been critical of that.
32:27My point is that, who wants to go and shout at me, my point is that when only a few go, they don't want it to be one of that few that say, what about these other people who are studying here?
32:38And I, we all understand that.
32:40But you're, you feel there are some glimmers of hope in education then.
32:44What about higher education?
32:45What about the colleges and universities and the rest of it?
32:49What concerns me there are not the
32:52not the old blind profs in the rest, and not those in the hard sciences, although some of the most miserable types of people are some of the physicists in the rest who are opposed to doing what is necessary to maintain adequate defense in the rest.
33:09In other words, when they get out of their field, they are totally without morals, principle, or anything else.
33:16But what really concerns me the most are the associate professors and the assistants in the rest.
33:20Kissinger often speaks about them.
33:22in very brutal terms.
33:28It's a greed, probably, that went into him.
33:33And came out of a certain generation, from the 50s and so forth.

Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on National Catholic Education Association

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 4, 1972

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