Conversation 702-007

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

And what happened was he would agree and he wouldn't have killed him because of that.

You see the horror around that, what you described.

But the leader class, there's where people have to concentrate.

People talk about the masses.

My study of history tells me that civilizations do not deteriorate.

They do not become decadent because of what happens to the masses.

That's a false, I don't know if you agree with me, but I think what happens is the leader class goes to hell.

And what it does, I mean, someone's got to lead it, that's all there is to it.

But you see, that is one of the first things.

The radicalized, hella students, 5% or so, who are real ideologues and ferocious, these are always complaining about moral decadence and so on.

and the lack of leadership.

Well, they are themselves class, because these are the young people who come from families of Afro, that's almost all of them, who haven't had expensive educations, bad ones, who have all kinds of opportunities, and who will instead turn to a violent romanticism

moral nihilism where their own lives are concerned, and hypocrisy and political demands, these are the decadent classes.

These are the young decadents.

Those who are complaining about decadence and immorality are themselves the decadent and immoral.

It's the destruction of a class.

And of course,

That class, people will be, well, think of society, some will take the place, and it's the Poles, the Czechs, some will come in and take out their information, and some of the Negroes, many of the Negroes arise, and go have a new class, it's plentiful, and they're going at it very fast.

That's where you had to get it.

That's what saved this country, of course, through the years.

The influx of the new people, when they kind of came in and they gave, they intermarried and so forth, instead of becoming incestuous, but inbred like the British and the French.

And that's what's happened to them.

Let's face it.

And it has not yet happened to us.

Of course, we're big enough.

Well, I asked these questions to see how you would evaluate the current city.

I'd like to remind myself of the phrase of Jim Adams, the funnest of the process.

Adams was always kind of pessimistic.

He said, the funnest of the process, and we're flying, we're going to put it into this world, as into an arena, and it's our duty to keep on fighting whether we think we're going to win or not.

And, of course, if you play hard enough and believe you will, then you probably will.

On the other hand, if one believes the prophets of doom, well, those become prophecies that work their own way, don't they?

All those pieces.

Yesterday, on the small scale, I said, when they grew up in schools, if they really believe they're going to pull nothing out, then they will pull nothing.

If they're willing to fight, then they're going to get help from you and other people, and something will be done for them.

They can't sit there and say, well, they're going to hold up unless somebody helps us.

They've got to say, we've got to fight, and we're going to do it, and we're going to go out and talk, and we're going to get the contributions, and we're going to continue to work, and we're going to accelerate the pay rise.

It's a tough deal.

But I couldn't agree more.

When the will to live goes, there's no chance.

There's no way.

And that's what's happening in lots of institutions.

The will to live just goes.

It's a...

It's an interesting point for us to consider at the present time, because as you look around the world today, I mean, no one could have less illusions than I have about the terror, the desolates, the dreads, the dehumanizing effect of the social systems, all social systems, and the consciousness systems that I saw in Russia.

And for a situation like Romania, you have a strong outbreak of all kinds of

And, of course, you see it in China.

It's in a very different form than the West, but I'm just saying.

The difficulty, however, when you look at those terrible systems, and what concerns them, and I know I'm going to put a couple other people in there, is that when you look at the Chinese as people, you look at the Russians as people,

because of the Germans as people and the Japanese as people, and you have four people that still have drive, that still, oh, I don't mean that they're all, that they're doing perfect, that they don't have their share of everything, immoral people and thieves, addicts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but they've got drive, sense of destiny, et cetera, et cetera.

Now, when you have,

peoples like that in the world, the United States, rich as it is, with a superior society, certainly materialistically sensitive, with all of our power, and also with all of our, well, let's face it, with a system of government which is infinitely better than any of those.

But if the United States, and particularly its leader class,

loses its drive, sense of destiny, and sort of isn't driven any longer, then we are in very serious trouble.

Because there are other people around who are willing.

Would you not agree with that?

They're willing to pay the price.

They're willing to sacrifice and so forth.

Now, they will build, certainly, the Russians and the Chinese will build a kind of a world that will be horrifying as far as we're concerned.

who knows what the Japanese returns would do.

But at any rate, the spark of greatness that has made this country what it is is something that's got to be kept alive by people who have

I had a chance to talk to you, and they said I followed your columns, but I re-read that little program from the Conservatives, and it reads well, and as time goes on, you ought to read it again sometime.

I took up last night's final passage, and I don't have any quotes from the piece that I was writing.

Yes, but I'm told that it holds up, and it's relevant.

There's an article in the column, you know.

It holds up.

You must know what you meant when you took up that point in this book.

It's very important.

Well, you know, the way you break it down in simple terms, the problem of loyalty and all, uh, tradition, et cetera, et cetera, and people don't understand those things, and, uh, we, uh, we have, you know, the double don'ts that are supposed to say these profound things, but it's the slightest idea what it's all about, and it's, it's got to be, it's got to be raised.

Who do you think, if you had to pick a book to read,

Except for Bert, what would you read today?

Of all the books that you've read, what's a social thought in that area, or history, or biography?

What's the most interesting book you've picked to read?

How do you do them?

Well, that's a tough question to answer today.

I often ask my name in Kissinger, and they're great.

Maybe ten.

But one of my favorites of the books in the century is

Uh, T.S.

Eliot, uh, notes, uh, towards the definition of technology.

I don't see a yearbook about that.

Yes.

A yearbook that's about that.

Yes, about that, yes.

I'll have to talk about it with anybody else who's ever been to the Pentagon, I don't see anything.

Right, right, right.

You want to go back and speak to that, do you want to try to read all the dark sections, especially the other part of the culture?

Yeah, I'll scan it.

Tell them to go to the parts and see what they have, right?

Well, good to see you.

I wish you well.

Tell me, did you say, is your wife here?

Yes, she's helping me.

I'm the employer.

Oh, I'll have her come in and focus.

She's been captain of the employer since 1960.

Where is she also?

Well she is in Chief of Mission also in Wisconsin.

I'll call you when she's here.

No, this is Kirk.

Oh, this is Kirk.

She's out in reception hall.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right.

We'll get a couple of little trinkets here.

We'll get a couple of trinkets.

You're not a golfer.

I'm not a golfer.

Silly man.

I just, you know, you've heard of him.

So you're just here before the height of the season.

What happens out here, you see these?

And beyond that are flower and crown trees.

They'll break out in about three days.

It's terribly cold.

It's been cold.

And right beneath are tulips.

This whole thing breaks out in tulips.

Flower and crown.

Something to see.

President's here.

Well, how are you?

Nice to see you.

Yes, very well.

Yes, yes.

If you want to take a picture of you, come on up here.

Pretty girl here with the... Hi.

Hi.

Oh, listen.

Listen, anybody with brains has got to have hair to turn around.

I do a lot.

And so I understand you are from New York?

Yes, Long Island.

We met on the street one day.

I walked with you.

Did you bring, let's see, for Mrs. Kirk a little compact and then an x-ray of those?

That's all you got.

I walked with you in 1960.

I heard about it.

In 1960?

Yes, I was in college at the time.

Where were you?

I was at Deloitte College around the center.

It's a small little Catholic college.

And Russell was a specialty mentor in New York County.

I was there, and so I was very active.

Are you Catholic?

Oh, yes, I'm Catholic.

And Russell was a convert.

Are you Catholic?

Yes.

Oh, I didn't know you were a Catholic.

I wasn't when I wrote the book.

You weren't at the time you wrote the book.

No.

Well, the Catholics have worked.

I didn't know that.

This is not just my story, but it's rather pleasant.

It has a presidential seal, which you see in the card, which is the signature.

We have children, too.

We have three babies.

Two-year-olds, three-and-a-half, four-and-a-half.

Boys and girls.

Girls and girls.

Half of the church is girls.

That's great.

That's a good girl.

Children are appreciated.

Well, we just...

I was telling your husband that I had re-read his program for conservatives, and he said, you know, I pick up things now.

Yeah, right.

And how do you have time to read?

Well, I don't very much.

No, I sit in the evening, you know.

Yes.

And I don't look at television, unfortunately.

That's very good.

Except for Game Club.

I'll go in and I'll have to.

But it's a miserable thing.

But, you know, you can sit and look at it.

We know, did you tell me, Elliot?

Yes, we talked about such things as kind of indulgence.

Oh, yes.

Elliot, I believe his statement in literature was to remind us of politics.

I think that, in fact, as far as prose goes, I think it's actually probably better.

No, I, well, in a sense, in a sense, yes.

I proofread it.

I used to teach English.

I went there on a scholarship because it was free, and I went to St. John's.

I do feel on the defensive about Columbia Teachers.

I get an A in linguistics, which I didn't know what they were talking about.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, completely a waste of time.

Oh, yeah.

Completely.

Yes.

Right.

Not a bad thing to do.

I think you'll enjoy the Elliot.

Oh, I will.

I sure will.

Someday I'll have an Oscar.

Right.

Well, give the little girls my best.

Yes, I will.

Enjoy them when they grow up.

Oh, yeah.

Before they know it, there they are.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

I appreciate it.

I was listening to that video about California.

I'm going to keep the baby.

Right.

No surrender.

Right.

Sir, should I?

No, I can't.

No, he just came in to chat about it.

He's got a new book.

Oh, I, uh...

I had a quote that I was asking.

We talked about anything about the HP.

I just don't think, well, I had to see.

There was no question about it.

Well, they took him.

Man, what an out there.

It was 4 or 8 o'clock.

Boy, this is one time when we are ready for those bastards.

We have got more.

We need to do very, very well.

81 of them, and so forth, just perched.

And they just opened up.

And they were stretched out.

And see, that's a different from the air, I mean, the other area, because it's smaller.

And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then,

A lot of people are getting the idea.

Maybe we'll do something about it.

Star Earth.

Headless.

Like Blitzkrieg.

Blitzkrieg?

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, ours is pending or theirs is coming out.

Sure, but that's all right.

Today, we finally, after three and a half years from the foreign policy thing, all water service leagues coming out of defense, coming out of state, coming out of here,

focus on the massive invasion across the DMZ in violation of 54 and 68 understandings, conventional sophisticated weapons being used, supplied by the Soviet Union, different, you know, than previous .

All right.

Well, I'm going to start squealing.

to tie it together, but I wouldn't say that because the convention costs more, we're going to go with that.

I don't think it's IT&T.

I think we should simply put it if we can, if we can stretch the point.

I mean, not such a hell of a lot of it is that, isn't it?

They can't get the convention costs such a time at any cost that we can afford.

Henry just came in with a speaking request that I think he ought to accept, and that's Frank Stanton asked him to do the CBS station owners.

Oh, yes.

In California, 200.

Yes, sir.

Owners of all their affiliates, off the record or on any basis he wants.

They're from California?

No.

They're from all over the country.

It's every station, every CBS affiliate.

How?

To what extent does the CBS affiliate have the right to program?

Well, they have their local news.

They have a complete right to program it.

They have the right to accept the network news.

They all accept it.

Yeah.

But they have the right to put pressure on the network news.

Plus the station affiliates, they run editorials now.

All correct.

And most of these affiliates are on our side.

Most of these station affiliates are probably all correct.

Damn right.

But that's one I think he ought to do.

I'm all for it.

How did you...

Mitchell seems to be feeling pretty good, doesn't he?

He's feeling good.

He's on top of, you know, what's going on.

He's got his kind of strings in hand, and he has the feeling he's in the cycle.

And he said to me, you know, I quit wasting so much time worrying about IT&T to get to winning an auction, which is a little more important.

You know.

No, I haven't been.

He's in very good condition.

And it's interesting, this time about the money thing.

I talked about the concern on that whole thing.

He said, Father, there's nothing you can do about it.

You just gotta play this one cool.

close to the vest, is what they say.

We will, Congress has laid down what they expect to be done, and we will do it.

We're going to be guided by that, period.

And we're going to give a shit what John McGarvey wants to hear.

If we have nothing to add, we'll do everything we can.

He's not sure about that, so I may be wrong on that, but we may not be listening in 3D.

I won't listen.

Well, we may not be able to.

Be careful of that.

But the other thing they're doing is that we will not have this money on hand, so we won't have to report it.

They're doing this prepaying, prepaying for their mailing stuff and all that kind of thing.

They're prepaying the advertising group, which we own anyway, so that they'll have the money already out, and those people won't have to report it.

So you get it out of the reporting area.

So he, he, they've been working on this and all of those things.

You know, I'm just anticipating what we, the questions we're going to have.

Yep.

How to handle it.

I suppose that used to be an issue.

What the hell?

Well, it's not a question you should handle because you're on the, I'm not handling political stuff at all.

Well, I'm not going to handle it.

John said if the president's worried about it, tell the directors to release the names and we just won't get around to it.

Blame it on us.

That would take 200 hours.

Nobody would buy that.

No, I think if I get a question, I might get something to say about it.

No, we've got to stay damn cool, sort of, about the battle.

I think, in a sense, and I've been hit harder with some issues.

But to be president here is the thing to do.

And in one sense, let me say, well, it's, of course, not very dandy to go through.

They never are.

But having my kids around in Vietnam has its pluses as well as its minuses at this point.

Do you see what I mean?

Sure.

Especially when you follow it out, it works.

Well, it's got to work.

It doesn't work.

Oh, Henry, he sure is ecstatic.

You know, ecstatic because he always likes the war.

Yeah.

The point is, we...

He thinks we've got it all.

But this convinces him that he's got a negotiation coming.

Yeah.

Well, he may have.

I won't for the first time say so, but we've got to get a chance to bomb.

Or...

Or it could be a negotiation to suck up the peace.

We can't do that.

We cannot lose this war.

People can talk all they want.

The United States will not have a viable foreign policy ever after this if they lose this war.

No way.

No way they can win.

Nobody will believe us.

Nobody will think we're strong enough.

Nobody will be there with guts.

Nothing.

I'll work on the Catholic education thing.

John is trying to get a look at it, sending up a copy, maybe a copy.

But I'll have him send it.

Well, Senator says he's got a reworked copy.

I would like to have a reworked copy, if I could, by, say,

If I could have one of the people up tonight.

Okay.

I'll go over and I'll go over to the EOB and just drop over to the EOB.

And if I could have a reviewer come, then I'll leave the apartment tonight.

It's pretty much, it's pretty hard to say when you've got the report.

Maybe that's all that we can say at this time.

No, that's all Crowe feels he should say.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Chuck's talked to Crowe about other, with him, he's...

How long?

Yeah.

was pretty confident with me.

Is he worried so much about that?

He'd probably not be much.

What do you think about it?

We didn't even get into it.

Good to see you.

As it is now, have you informed Philadelphia?

No.

I want to be sure we've got it.

I don't want to get another clap, but that's no problem.

Well, sure.

Tomorrow.

I think we'll get a good reception up there.

That's right.