Conversation 705-002

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Well, we have very good reports from Military Region 1 today.

There's been a ditch-ditching tank battle that I mentioned to you.

And in near Park Street, south of East Lane, they've knocked out 78 tanks and have killed 1,100 people.

Now, the only thing that makes me believe that something big happened is that there's another circumstantial detail, for example,

Our advisors say that the North Vietnamese are very bad in coordinating infantry, tank, and artillery.

Now, that sounds plausible to me, because they've never done it before.

And why should they be to commend at the good times?

They do a big offensive.

They do everything right.

Well, as you know, that's a very tricky business.

Exactly.

Coordination of infantry.

You mean tanks?

There are even many attack tanks that have got out too goddamn far in front and almost got shoot out.

That's right.

Now, in fact, they give a circumstantial detail.

For example, I mention it only to you, not because you want to bother with it, but they have used their tanks so badly that the South Vietnamese have been able to use 105 howitzers to shoot directly at the tanks.

a point blank, and you know how it says, are designed to shoot in an arc and filter.

And when they shoot with this tremendous velocity, which is supposed to produce an arc, point blank, the tank just is integrated.

Then, you remember those heavy tanks you ordered in there?

Well, they're now using them up there.

And they have...

uh they have been very effective against these the other the tanks of the other side so in in military region one now even if you cut all of these casualties in half the fact is that even uh the speaking press this morning uh seems to be a little leery about claiming too much military maybe one of our communist friends that's right

Incidentally, I have come to the view very strongly that you should not give a television speech, Mr. President.

It isn't that much of a crisis.

I don't see what we gain by it.

Are you going to talk about it?

No, but I will.

I'll be all for it.

Mr. President.

I'll tell you the point that concerns me about it.

Well, of course, let me go over a few details, and then we'll come to the speech.

All right.

Now, in Military Region 2, it's quiet.

We are hitting a service.

Can I, before...

Would you, would it be all right if his head was here?

Would you mind if he steps down a little bit?

I mean, I want to try to come up with military ideas.

I'll see if you've heard the name of him.

While we're talking.

But I want to talk to him about the speech.

I got an idea last night.

I think it'll work.

But I want to see if it's very relevant.

Well, I was wondering about that.

I thought you said we had behaved restarted.

Uh, that you'd said we've not never used B-52s in our... That's what I thought you said.

I said this morning that the Virgin Islands had 68 used B-52s.

Well, that's the only time I've heard about it.

Mr. President, the signal is getting across to them.

We've got the Russians nervous now.

Which is one reason, Mr. Edly, why I don't think you should give this speech.

I think anything you say, even if it's very tough by our standards, is softer than what they think you may do.

The difficulty is that whatever we say, we have to realize that from a foreign policy standpoint, whatever we say will have to be conquered.

The view of the domestic situation here to this extent, it will have to indicate that we are willing to negotiate

and and and he has found progress that we are for peace and we are not going to commit ground forces and so forth i don't want to i don't like to say those things now domestically those things should be said we are going to take some attrition i know that and my view is that i have the reason

I'm going to spend a few minutes where you work with each other, Henry, on some military things.

First, with regard to military region one, he was giving me a report.

Now, the usual thing your boys do in the military in such a situation is to say, gee, isn't that great?

And then do nothing and follow up.

Now, I'm wondering this.

First, is the weather still bad in military region one?

Yes.

It's going to clear by tonight, though.

Can I suggest this?

Can I suggest that Abrams and Bolton, I think you'll agree, Henry, with this.

They will think that, and of course we'll use a lot, they'll think that since we seem to have blooded their attack there, we'll concentrate where we will make a problem.

It's not very true either, I'm sorry, but then we should, we must let it go.

But if this is one third true,

there should be a massive strike in military region one tonight.

Because if they are hurt, Henry, that's the time to bomb the bastions again.

Don't you agree with that?

See, the whole theory of any successful military operation I ever read about has been that when you get an area of breakthrough or an area holding the enemy, what you do then is not say, gee, that's great, and then hold.

You kick the shit out of it there.

and then do the other two.

Do we have the forces to do that Henry, do you know?

Oh yes, they're planning.

You know what I mean, we have enough air force that if there is a, if it clears tonight, I think we ought to kick it.

They've heard Henry, they think you've heard more than you think in the military if you want.

That's right, but I think we have no bomb damage assessment from the T-52s at all, and they are being brought to bear there in an area ten miles wide.

so even if they have no we can't do that none of the people who are hitting now involving well all that i would like to do before you go all i want to be sure is

We don't fight it like we used to.

We believe we ought to fight wars.

Do you agree?

We have certainly never

You never follow a little math that lay in a book of books.

You just find every place along the whole front.

The way to win, of course, is not quite along the whole front.

The way to win, of course, is give a little here and take the shit out of them there.

Correct, Alan?

Isn't that what you learned at the Moore College?

Isn't it true?

Yes, sir.

It is true.

Maybe it isn't true, but...

It was the only, it was the theory behind that B-3 strike, and I think most people thought that was pretty good.

But I think if we could just find some ways to do, that's all I want you to look into.

You go over and study it with your Pentagon mates, and then let, you know, let us know.

And then I'm not going to try to pick, at least, I'm easier than Johnson.

Johnson picked the goddamn targets.

I'm not doing that.

But at least the strategy's got to be better than it is.

The second point is, what is the situation with regard to that

surrounded division now and you you said is the division surrounded and locked or whatever it is no but what about a surrounded division is there one or is there not i uh

That's the division headquarters there.

They are surrounded in the sense that they are moving in other words.

But they don't have a whole mass of people.

The other thing is, there's large Harvard protections.

This is something the New York Times has all written from the sky that's over it.

and Paris.

Do we have anything from large art of perfection, Henry, do we?

But Al, you told me that you didn't think there was, didn't you?

Only that one, uh... Yeah, yeah, okay.

The second one, I just want to be sure that the things we go first are from Craig's.

They have, I can't tell me the truth, I don't know.

But, on that lock, uh, oh, on 52s, were they used against North Vietnam on page 68?

I don't think we ever used it.

What the hell does that say?

I think Mr. President... Do you think it went well?

Yes.

It went very well.

The thing I'm mostly curious about, though, is that the victories of the North have been...

Not aircraft.

They're being done by ground forces.

Oh, I agree.

I think it's great.

If that is true, if that is true.

The other thing is, can't he get a reporter in there on that one?

In other words, that's the time.

Do you want to give a little credit?

If we could get some credit for what they're doing, what do you think?

I think absolutely.

Oh, it's so dangerous to get a reporter in there.

What do you think?

I think, Mr. President, I think the basic issue now is not PR or anything else, whether we win or lose, and that's going to be evident.

PRs can sometimes affect language.

But you see what I mean.

What's your, but wouldn't it make sense, though, if they had knocked out a ranch with ground horses and the rest, that now was the time to give them a hell of a wallop in the air as well?

You might demoralize that front up there.

Is this making sense or not?

That's right.

What a big point.

Seven days, 28 days in the one battle.

You see what I mean?

You demoralize that.

And that sweeps the whole front of you, you know,

It appears that your left is gone, the right worries, and the center worries.

Anyway, it has to be like that.

Your evaluation says pretty good.

I think that's the most encouraging thing I've heard.

It's what the mission did.

This is the middle of the game.

Yes, it is.

And the 1st Division is fighting around.

That's going away.

That's all I wanted to say.

Check out that one thing.

It makes any sense.

Let me ask you another thing.

What about the destroyers that we hit?

They said two destroyers.

One destroyer was hit.

No casualties.

By a sewer battery.

It was a lucky hit.

What the hell?

We're not worried about that, sir.

No casualties, Mr. President.

And I think if we, if this situation continues like this another two weeks, we will have scored.

The North Vietnamese have sharply worked.

Secondly, I'm very impressed by Mr. Breeden.

All right.

Now, first, let me give a brief report on the wind strike.

They checked it with radar.

They got accuracies of 150 feet.

Now, when you drop this much, there was a lot of overcast.

So they couldn't take pictures, but they had four secondary explosions that came up over 2,000 feet high through the overcast.

And

What I find interesting is that the North Vietnamese, who usually scream immediately, are saying nothing, which means they... that normally means they're heard.

Certainly, because if they had not... when they... when they scream, they don't know what's coming next.

So that wind strike, I think it was effective, and it made it... it got its message across directly, I think.

Are you glad we did it?

It's like everything else.

I think we had to do it for, I didn't think it was just psychology either.

After all, men is a major.

I think it is essential, I think, to other things.

We now have a chance of really breaking this thing, and after that the politics and everything is going to be over.

I can just smell this, unless the South Vietnamese collapse on us, which I'm now getting more and more optimistic about.

I would walk a B-52 strike a little further north later this week.

And I...

Yes.

And then secondly, I co-ed those truck trucks.

But they'll be back tomorrow morning.

Then we'll know.

And I keep porting the ships out there.

I think there are...

Speaking of ships, how about telling the border here to send some more ships to the territory where there are blockades?

And put them up around...

We must be careful, Mr. President, because I look back, we made one mistake in these blockade exercises.

Once you deploy in there and then don't do it.

That's one threat we didn't carry out this time of night.

But this time, by the important crash relief, this 24th, incidentally, I think that private meeting is coming up.

I think the Russians are going to drive them there.

Well, the thing is, the thing that concerns me about...

Like I said, I don't think we've got to keep all this stuff in balance.

The thing that kind of concerns me about your father and the brand is that it may be the same malarkey that they've given us since we started private talks over two years ago.

We've had 12.

They use these damn talks.

for the purpose of sort of scaring us along.

And on the private talk, and I encourage, if you're going to see the ring again, you've got to tell them that they've got to, not that they have to talk seriously, say they've got to settle.

no yeah i told you you see what i'm afraid of is that they're going to get into this thing again we're going to handle it around again about eight points 10 points 14 points six points and so forth and we don't have time we've got time for two more meetings and that's all but the point is after all this

We are using them now.

We get more out of the 24th meeting even if we sit there playing cricket.

The fact of the matter is, that's another reason I'm against the speech now.

The mere fact that there are talks going on is going to shut up Fulbright.

What can he say?

Yeah, but he isn't in over two weeks.

But it is bad now.

We're not under bad pressure.

I think if you go on television, you force Humphrey, Muskie, everybody else to take you on, and there'll be more debate.

Yes, and mobilize.

Let me give the case on the other side.

They're going to go on anyway because they will read some of the stories and get in line.

And Tony Lewis writes in Times this morning that most people say, for God's sake, it's going on.

Well, Saturday.

Huh?

Saturday.

You don't want to do it.

You have a bad master, meaning it's a left-wing son of a bitch.

But anyway, the point is, that is one view.

Now, what we have to anticipate underneath is, even though we don't take them on, they will seize this as a great opportunity to take us on and may mobilize public opinion.

I don't believe that.

I don't.

For example, just to play the thing, I'm going to try to knock off Philadelphia Sunday, but...

We will run into a good gaggle of cat demonstrators in Ottawa, and that will be greatly played by this lousy South American press.

If I, of course, go to Philadelphia Sunday night, which I may have to do because of some fiddle, they'll really get out a crowd in my group, and that will, of course, be badly played.

That hurts his bananae.

No.

Okay.

Real big.

What did I do?

I told the briefing yesterday, I said, the president is determined.

We've stood demonstrations here time and again.

We'll withstand any demonstration.

And the more pressure is put on us, the faster we'll act.

Because they're just tricks to time.

This is not President Johnson.

Under no circumstance, I was brutal with him.

My concern is, Mr. President, right now when you read the newspaper, we are very sensitive.

This new summary, this new summary worries me anyway, because... Too long?

Yes, because the whole, for example, the Abrams interview was really a damn good thing.

Well, I know.

The funny thing to give you is the reaction of Elaine Bee, who hates the press so that we hardly ever read her anything.

But he says, that was a goddamn thing Abrams said.

What does he say?

So in Paris, it's getting across the summit, and it gets on two inches in the air, and

Well, it got two inches, they're on two inches.

It said that Abrams, they just printed the alarmist part of Abrams.

They didn't say that he said it was their biggest mistake, that he defeated, and so forth.

I believe, Mr. President, if we lose, it won't make any difference whether you feel on television, you just make the defeat worse.

If we win, you're calm, and so forth, we can then crow about the success of Vietnamization.

Uh, and smash, uh, out of, uh... Well, I'll tell you the thing that concerns me about the television is, of course, the thing we were talking about last night.

But I can rectify it.

I worked with it for a long time.

The last time I tried to rectify it, I tried to figure it out.

I... Oh, we can... You cannot.

That's just...

The kind of speech that's been prepared just won't float.

Uh, that speech is awful.

But you see, my worry about this...

But my worry is, Mr. President, that a good speech...

I'm thinking of a Churchillian speech.

But even a Churchillian speech, first, why is it going on television?

It's a major crisis.

Secondly, it's an American crisis.

Thirdly, right now, it isn't yet at the forefront of people's minds.

Well, I'm not sure that...

And the news is so... Well, I think Haldeman is also wrong in part about Laos.

I started out being with them.

If we had run in Laos...

If we had won, I could have washed it out.

If we'd reverted at home... Everybody was saying we were doing well.

That's right.

So, there's only one yard safe.

And that's when?

Now.

And therefore, I would not now...

But how do you understand that we're going to take something else...

As a result of this, we'll get a tax.

And, you know, one of the things that helped us in China was that we had good polls before we went.

We'll get a tax.

We will suffer a public opinion.

And that will hurt us in our right hand.

No, that's just a small thing.

On the other hand, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference due to the fact that it's far from our concern.

By the time the Russian summit comes off, we will know how this thing's come off, one way or another.

And if we've lost the hell of it, if we won in Vietnam, I don't even know what the polls show for that.

The Russian summit's here.

I'm just pointing out what that's hard to call a mid-shield.

I know, but polls won't help you in Russia or mid-shield politics.

The fact is, if this succeeds,

that Soviet arms will have overturned the balance of the Indian subcontinent and will have run us out of Southeast Asia.

I don't care what your polls are.

You see, what I was going to say, the remarks that I had,

I was going to get right to it right off the bat.

I said, I'll tell you what's happened.

I mean, I'm not going to lie to you.

Report briefly on the situation in Vietnam.

The North Vietnamese communists have launched a major attack, offensive, which has for its purpose completely conquered South Vietnam.

This attack is being supported massively by the newest Soviet technical equipment, tanks, armored cars, artillery, etc.

The South Vietnamese are fighting well, fighting against the communist takeover of their country.

The United States role is limited to, and will continue to be limited to, the use of our air power and of our naval power to support South Vietnamese in their attempt to avoid a communist takeover of their country.

If this succeeds, if this succeeds, if this succeeds, it will mean that there will be, that no continent, that all over the world, this same tactic

may well be tried again.

If, for example, a communist country with the support, or any country with the support of Soviet arms is allowed to take over a neighboring country, to conquer a neighboring country, and it does not stop, then that tactic will be used.

all over the world.

It will be used in the Middle East.

It will be used in the Americas.

It could even be used in Europe.

Therefore, what we are talking about is the critical time in order to stop now.

That's what this game is about.

You see, the crap that

that Sapphire and all the rest of these people, right, it's all too, it doesn't go to the heart of it.

The state stuff has never gone to the heart of it.

As Pava said to me yesterday, when I was talking along these lines, he said, the difficulty is you're the first one that's been present, and since that's got to have a word started, who has seen it in the correct

sense of its being, of the Russian role.

You see, he said, they all took the Harriman line, the Russians.

I remember Lodge, Henry, I was in Vietnam seven different times, more than two words, Lodge was there five of those different times.

And on five different occasions, on the other occasion, Taylor told me, and on the other occasion, Ms. Paul Porter told me, because it was the line, told me, now the Russians really don't want this.

The Russians really want peace out here.

The Russians don't want the Chinese to move in on it.

I think that's all bullshit.

I think the Russians, it isn't a question that the Russians aren't thinking that much.

The Russians just want to win.

They are supporting them, and they'll go as far as they can go.

The difficulty, and that's what the Indian thing showed us.

I mean, the reason Rogers and all those State Department people made the mistake on Indian Henry was that they did not see, properly estimate, what the Russians wanted to do with the Russians.

were willing to take great risks to knock over Pakistan and support India because of every pressure around the world.

The Russians were doing that every place.

That's what was involved in Jordan.

It was a Russian move, not a Syrian move.

You knew that.

I knew it.

And this is a Russian move.

Whatever you get it done, I've talked around with them.

At that point in the day,

Mr. President, I believe it's premature to do this now.

I agree completely with your analysis.

I believe, first of all, I think, and we are rewriting it now, at the CPW signing today, you should, well,

If I may suggest, Mr. President, I would say three or four sentences that the Russians will understand as being relevant to the situation.

You can wrap it up.

Two sentences.

I think it's terribly important.

But I believe very strongly, Mr. President, I don't usually urge you strongly, that we have this Vietnam War where we will either win it or lose it.

A speech at this time is not necessary.

It will not help.

I can see some marginal advantages from it, but to be plausible to the American people, as you yourself pointed out, you have to say something about negotiation.

you have to say something about what we will not do.

That's right.

What will help us with Hanoi and Russia is the feeling that, Jesus Christ, this guy is going crazy.

Right.

And therefore, since we are not yet up, and another disadvantage is, the most brilliant thing we've always said, we'd rather have...

bad news on page, or good news on page 50 than bad news on page one.

It doesn't help us to have the most brilliant speech on Vietnam on the front page.

I mean, take the point you made.

Immediately we start an attack on the domino theory.

It broadens it into Soviet things, all of which is true.

I think right now people

I was at that gridiron reception yesterday to take my parents there.

And I just don't have the sense that these newsmen are zeroing in on us yet.

I think the politicians are.

are careful.

Now when this news of these victories in the military is one kind of...

They dug it out.

Oh yes, they're coming out.

But some of it is already out.

More of it is beyond...

It was certainly blown down in the stores at times.

Folks, I had to turn the fold.

Well, the fact though is, if you remember last week, they had these big headlocks, blitzkrieg and so forth.

What's all this shooting about?

They've advanced ten miles.

That's a good reason why.

Now, in three, it's going to go the same way.

They're going to... What's happening in three?

Well, my frank opinion is that the division that's fighting in AMLOC, the division is not that good.

I've been watching it for two years.

Yeah.

It fought in Cambodia.

It's a disaster.

Yeah.

It will probably lose.

This is my judgment.

AMLOC will fall.

Maybe AMLOC will fall.

It's been long before, isn't it?

No, but still, we can do this.

Literally, I am a person who has supported the fuckday yesterday for a real time.

That's it.

Uh, I don't know what you want me to say.

Here's the situation.

The military region, this is a joint assessment that we do as part of the assessment later today.

Do you believe that the military situation is now essentialized?

Both in the name of the Marine Division and the Raid Battalion Constituted Division have been performing well.

The third division is being reconstituted and brought up to strength.

Separations are being made.

Uh,

to organize a conference at Vietnamese, uh, uh, tank, Air Force and anti-tank veterans have been most effective.

Forty-seven tanks were destroyed yesterday.

That's all one.

And the total is now nearly a hundred.

Military Region 2, the situation is wider than Military Region 1.

POW, uh, interrogation indicates that the 320th Division has been ordered to withdraw into Laos.

to reorganize.

They have apparently taken heavy losses from massive airstrikes.

I believe that.

That's you.

That's what I get a little credit for.

You get all the credit for it.

Uh, let me ask, uh, did the military grudgingly admit that that was the correct thing to do and finally just do it there?

Oh, yeah.

Now they are.

You mean three strikes?

They did?

Oh, yeah.

They're doing it now all the time.

But they liked it.

I'm not aware.

Military Region 3, the 21st Division is moving from the Delta to reinforce Military Region 3.

That's an excellent one.

That's the one they talk about as moving 100 miles?

That's the one that cleared out the human part.

You believe that these reinforcements, together with the Air Force Brigade, will give adequate forces to clear bin long.

That's the area that it is.

Within the space of three or four days, I think this is overly optimistic.

Military force, more unit action had been taking place, and these had been handled largely by the territorial forces.

Now, Hugh believes that the enemy is unable to sustain the offensive for much more than a month.

I agree with him.

He said that recent interrogations of POWs indicated the operation was to be limited in duration to that period.

This, I believe, because of the summit.

One month.

One month from now, or one month from when it began?

I think, Mr. President, by April, by May 1st, it will wind up.

This is my judgment.

The enemy has lost nearly 100 tanks in military legion, one alone, and has taken heavy casualties.

Jupiter said after this period, three enemy divisions upgrading in or near the border areas of MR3, that is, the 5th, 7th, and 9th, will probably withdraw again into Cambodia.

The 320th and the 8th Division indicator is already

withdrawing to the border areas.

As noted, we have no confirmation that this has occurred.

The 308th Division, he thinks, will probably return to North Vietnam, while the 304th and the 324B will return to the mountain areas of MR1.

All of this, I believe, took.

The enemy will then take some time to reorganize the equipment recruits and may then try some offensive operations by mid-July, August.

But few beliefs with less momentum than displayed at the present level.

If you were with him to the period of, say, six weeks, for the man to reconfigure his forces, to bring them up to strength, at which time they should be ready to go, with 12 of you his forces, he's prepared to have another announcement, right?

And he thinks he can handle it.

He wants air support under Alexis.

His manner was calm, confident.

He seems to feel that he has the situation well in hand.

Uh, the Chivian forces are probably organized in a short period of time to anticipate mounting counter-attacks against the enemy within a short period of time.

Colonel Abrams and I will try to give you an illustration of that as we see it, this address to you.

But I thought in the meantime, you would be interested in knowing something of Hugh's resolution.

Isn't it important to have an important meeting with them?

You see, the point is, I know they've got something else they want to speak about.

Cameron, when you force your supporters to make reports, at least the vast extent of the problem... Mr. President, your handling of this crisis has been heroic, and you have saved the country.

Because all you had to do is waffle a little bit last Monday, and the panic would have been on.

You were sure pushing to waffle, weren't you?

Everything was basically set up for you to say, it's now a South Vietnamese war.

We'll do our bombing.

Do the bombing by the way.

That's right.

Do it by the numbers.

It's a massive movement.

Now, now... On the massive movement, you're... Can I come back?

First, you think the fleet movement had some effect on the...

I believe... That's right.

I believe, Mr. President, that we are...

I'm sure they're using these talks

But as long as we farm the diseases out of them in the meantime, they're not keeping us from doing one thing that we should be doing, not one.

I'm not recommending that we stop one military operation.

We now have to bring them back.

The only thing I've become very weary about is your speech or any public appearance by you now.

Well, I have to say, Mr. Warren,

I think incidentally I should cancel my trip to Japan for this reason.

The Russians will never believe that you're planning a blockade if I'm in Japan.

That's what I mean.

The reader said he was.

Well, he said.

What do you want?

No, no, he didn't give me the usual malarkey, we're not interested.

He said, give me something concrete we can do.

Yeah.

I said, I said.

You said, step down and fight it.

She said, well, they can't do that.

No, he didn't say that.

He said, can't you talk and fight it at the same time?

I said, no.

You said, this president won't do that.

I said, this president isn't trying.

He won't do it.

Now it's got to be settled.

He said, well, can't you wait with settling until the 24th?

Must you take irrevocable steps before the 24th?

Mr. President, since you and I know they're not going to do any irrevocable steps before the 21st, but I didn't even promise them that.

I said it depends entirely on how this develops.

It is now going to end.

We are not going to put up with any more.

They've turned this crew one too many.

You have gone too far.

uh what you now have to decide is you let him know that we were aware of the fact that they were putting in russian tanks and russian does he know that i'm that that's what i'm looking at the russian they're all russian tanks and russian guns and that's why i think just one or two sentences which they'll understand in your speech because this is on worldwide would help good if you could give me

That's something very brief.

I have the feeling anyway that at times like this, also at all times, you know the stuff that is written for this international stuff is so gooey, you know, it's the kind of stuff about, I must say that we all have engaged in those, and people I guess have to hear it,

You know, brother, Christ is the face of the world.

Brother, God damn it.

There was one sentence in there, and I know it was put in for a reason that I find interesting.

I just kind of burped over it.

You said that too far in Russia and China is concerned.

We know that our long-term interests are compatible.

The thing we have to do is to find a way to talk about our short-term interests in a way that we can talk about that and find other short-term interests.

That is such a naive, inaccurate description that it would bring us only to 10 from Russians and Chinese.

Our long-term interests are incompatible.

Exactly.

The opposite is true.

Our short-term interests may be lacking.

But you see, it's the whole line.

I mean, I don't know you, but you're over here.

On the CPW?

No, we're on the CPW.

speech yesterday.

No, the speech in Canada.

Oh, the speech in Canada.

It's a nice little talk, but the point is, it slides into that mushy sentimentality that just...

Most of the U.S. Senate think that they should write the peace speech.

But what they don't understand is that you're not McGovern.

They don't put it with the peace theme of the steel.

I had a long talk with Phil Buckley yesterday and Jim Buckley.

Jim called me last night.

He said, you write my speeches now.

You program it.

I'm your soldier.

He's all for us.

He said, thank the president.

Did you talk to your Obama?

Oh, yes.

I said, we have a response with P-52s.

He said...

I feel a little bit ashamed now.

He said, I'm behind you.

I'll be on the telephone.

He said, he has a program today in Albany.

This is Jim or Bill?

Jim.

Bill called Jim.

When I talked to Bill, he was in Vancouver, British Columbia.

He said he would get his brother Jim.

I said, I'll call Jim.

He said, no, no, no.

I'm doing the calling.

He called Jim.

Jim said,

You are my commanding officer now.

You tell me what you want done.

But Bill really didn't get any truth.

He's a hater.

And he probably still receives these around here because he's seen all horrible things that didn't happen.

So Bill said this, started mumbling a few things.

I said, listen, Bill, for once, just for once, let the conservatives not tell us where we are 10% wrong and start attacking the people who are 100% wrong.

What did he say?

I said, for once now, get all the conservatives together, and then the president will listen to you.

But you can't expect to be listened to when you nag at us every time we don't do what you want, and you never support us when the country is in danger.

Well, he said he'd spend the day on the telephone.

Well, that'll help.

Charge up a few of these people.

You weren't able to get to the library before you got here.

Oh, yes.

Was he all right?

Oh, God, yes.

He said, he's praying for you.

It's 100% right.

I told Billy Graham, look, I said, I said, oh, yeah, I said, look, look at all the people who've written me these greatest notes that were in the theater.

That's the good part of the policy, but what we're trying to do cannot work if we don't fall on our faith in Vietnam.

What do you say?

He agrees.

He'd get on the telephone and call them.

He was saying a year ago, he says the people who are sick of the war are sick of the war.

Everybody's sick of the war.

But that's why they get the idea.

That's another reason not to go in trouble.

That's right.

If they ever get the idea that, to be fair, they get the idea that...

we uh we'll pay a price because of the election for peace schools up and that's the thing that you've told the person you're right and it's my idea i mean this is the trouble with our whole writing staff christ and all that much they all are so goddamn soft

I could see it with that fire.

He really was pleading.

He just didn't want to do that.

He didn't want to use the word invasion in the city.

He didn't want to use it.

Well, what's in the name of good Christ?

He was fighting this speech.

I worked with him all day.

He said I could.

He's a good man.

He's a fine man.

But he doesn't believe in what we're saying.

He's a beast.

But you see, Mr. President, if we don't... Well, really, it means a small thing, always.

But...

And to answer the guns of April, we held the argument.

Now, for Christ's sakes, there may be, out of that great speaking audience, 100,000 that read her book.

I was one of them.

And maybe 1,000 that remember what the guns of August were all about.

But that kind of crap, I can't say.

It's cute.

It's meaningless.

But I...

He tried hard, but his fighting speech wasn't...

I could tell.

There was nothing in it.

And the same with Drew.

That's why he's surprised.

He's surprised that he's merged, because once Sapphire understands that...

He'll do it.

Price so deeply believes that he has trouble.

But we have the same problem.

We had it with the military all last week.

It took us six days of beating and testing.

You know, last week was almost a bad dream, sir.

We did beat them, didn't we?

You saved the honor of America, yes, last week, Mr. President.

Well, yes, I was.

if we lose it we have a lot we lose a little honor if we lose it at least we have shown that it is in america that's back down but we won't lose it i know i think we'll win i think we can win i have a second that's the ground sign i have a little i've been that was i don't think for a moment i have a little feeling from reading the press even the new summer

I think some of those non-speakers, oh, they're panicked.

They argue and lose.

They're a little jittery.

They're afraid, maybe, that the argument may not lose.

I get a little laugh.

Look, take a situation that could easily exist on Mayfair.

No provincial capital of any consequence has fallen, or maybe one.

The North and the Mesa have withdrawn on all fronts.

All of this can happen.

Uh, they can't hold that lock.

Of that I'm sure they can take it, but they may, they could conceivably hold the rock tree if they take it, but they cannot hold that lock.

Consume they might be, no, they can't hold that either.

You take, you let the First League of Maine come and then go on television and say, now I want to tell you what happened.

That's what we did.

And that you can be proud of them, and the Vietnamization has succeeded.

Of course, they made an all-out attack.

And it's a success of the Nixon Doctrine, a success of the Vietnamization.

That's when I was...

foreign policy-wise is all that thing foreign policy-wise is the only advantage of society

is that it might hold, and it very well could, more American vengeance during the next three weeks.

We will avoid the eroding, which another wave is going to come.

On the other hand, the deficits for it, policy-wise, it would require me to say things that were softer than I want the enemy to think I would do.

And that is not helpful.

So the thing to do is to say nothing and not to give any impression.

I'm really sorry to give you the impression that I need somebody to...

I think ominous silence is right now the best policy.

That's the real question I want to get to, and I'll bite down on all of them.

He has the best motive.

And you know I started out on all sides, so I...

But if your judgment is...

Or policy-wise, we are going to hold more of our silence than we'll be silent.

And I'll take whatever he says.

That is my strong judgment.

And we'll try to get some of our talks out to get shit out of the other side.

That's exactly right, Mr. President.

And I don't think the doubts have yet rallied enough.

And if this mood keeps flowing like this for a week, I think they may have feet.

Because if they were that weird now,

We are going to kick the shit out of them in military region one.

Are we?

Oh, yes.

But that's all the country is.

That's right.

And we've got to get them now.

Now, that will win the battle.

But what we should now do is go for broke.

Go for broke.

Oh, I see.

Go for broke, win the battle, and force them to negotiate now.

And settle.

You said exactly that.

We don't want to negotiate.

We want a settlement.

And...

And I think if we are ominous enough and tough enough, and under those conditions, if you agree, it would be a mistake for me to go to Japan, because that would make clear that nothing serious is going to be planned, because you wouldn't have me running around.

So I keep my mind clear and do what I need to do.

But I think, Mr. President, if this thing works, even if they don't settle on, assuming I've had the secret talk on the 24th, by that time the battle will have gone one way or the other.

Then you throw in the secret talk in your report, too.

Can I ask you just this?

Is there any way, looking at the second level, that we could use Porter today?

He's coming in.

Is there any way that you could have

He hadn't disclosed what he had offered in the way of the public and in talks or something, if you get my mind.

Let's think about it just a moment.

That we can have done.

But let's do it Tuesday or Wednesday.

Michael Kennedy, you say, but why not have Porter?

He comes in the same evening, or you wait for him, or wait until Thursday.

In other words, when he gets back to Paris, he might just say, it's trivial, it's nonsense.

You see the point?

The only argument that Kennedy and the rest are making that has any validity to the American people is that we have broken off talks and refused to talk.

Porter could say, if we could figure out something he could say, where he could say, that's just nonsense.

How does that sound to you?

That's right.

The only trouble with it is that the others know it's true, but the other side is going to reply and say, all right, we're still ready to talk, and force us to turn it down again.

Well, then you should say, they answered our agreement to talk with an offensive.

We will not talk with a non-Arab.

They'll be glad to when they stop the offensive.

How about you say that?

That we could say.

Is that a bad position to be in?

Something that isn't.

Mr. Baldwin's son says we should open talks, even while the offensive is going on.

The stupid bastards.

But, Mr. President, that...

Uh, you see, we can, whenever that screaming gets bad enough, we can always just disclose things.

So I don't think we are vulnerable.

I don't, I mean, the screaming, the explosion never catches up.

But that's all right.

But anyway, with that statement, what, if anything, do you want Porter to say?

I would say, I wouldn't say it on the defensive necessarily, on the talk side.

I don't want to say anything about being on the air.

Porter.

Porter could, when he comes back, just say, this is outrageous nonsense.

The other side, no.

I'd like to have him say it as late as possible so that they don't offer a meeting this week again.

Say it Wednesday or Thursday.

Thursday.

Let him say it Thursday.

I like Porter's posture of being the tough guy, and that's another interesting thing, that Raposo, as I said, actually won't be doing anything.

He said that, you know what, most people like the best when Porter's over there, they know a lot of those talks.

I agree with you, Mr. President.

But I like order to take a strong posture and say it's our British nonsense.

They broke all the talks while they were attached.

That's right.

They knew we were ready to resume on the 13th.

Let's look on the day.

In the meantime, the present area of action is the side out front, right?

Right.

Mr. President, they'll always go back.

I mean, the president's 25 miles from Cyprus.

Well, that's nonsense.

The only other thing is that the North Vietnamese say they're now going to launch attacks on the Americans that are there.

Now, they're probably saying that there's no way to do that.

I remember they all support people way back then.

Well, I suppose they could do it, but that would be very risky for them.

Then I think we should really blockade them.

I will.

But they won't do that.

I think they, uh, I think they'll do it now.

They may win, but they'll win like an exhausted marathon runner in the last hundred yards.

They can't win.

They can't win in South Vietnam with all we've got on our side.

They can't win with the air bar we've got and all the rest of it.

They're throwing everything in.

They can't sustain it.

But it isn't enough that what we must let them do, Mr. President, is to stop their defenses now.

And we've done it.

Now that we've got all our forces out there, we should keep clobbering them.

Now we should at least give them a two or three week shot, day after day, so that they can come back so fast.

Now is the time to take the heat.

Take it just before the Russian trip.

Because the Russian trip will take off the heat.

They've just made up a say.

They have on that.

I think they're on a say, assuming that it is through repeal of the state.

frankly, that they believe that the Arabs are pushovers, and that they are wrong.

And that you were so political.

Well, I also think that they believe the Arabs, and I think the Arabs like a lot of this, and Clifford, too.

They probably, how about you, have been in direct contact with them and say, look, get Nixon now, because our Democrats are in trouble, and so forth.

And I think the Arabs and the Clippers underestimate me.

They don't realize that I won't cave like their man did.

You won't cave?

You're a great patriot.

You're willing to act alone.

You haven't had 20 advisors come in here from all over the country telling you what to do now.

You know that if you had just flicked an eyelid, you didn't even have to give an order.

Rather, the player would have had a zygon on the... Yeah, where did that elephant come from today?

I don't know.

You don't want to know anything, do you?

No, no, he'll screw it up.

He'll really screw it up.

Laird did all right, huh?

Laird did all right.

But I think we should keep it quiet.

I don't know if Eason had his say.

Now, Laird is at least tough, but every step along... Let's be sure Ziegler gets down the idea.

I was concerned about one thing that you said there, that Bob Semple was an excellent source within the White House.

I think the White House advisers were deeply concerned about this because it would risk the generation of peace and rest.

You didn't get that from me.

You can be sure.

Of course not.

I didn't tell you that.

That's what I mean.

He's got it from me.

I'm sure the research droughts, you know, because he wouldn't have got it considered.

But you know how they are over there.

They probably lie.

I can't crackle that stuff about the peace talks.

You see, we do have, we've got to face it, we do have very wonderful White House advisors.

who didn't talk, as they should not do, even if God is decent and simple, and who said, gee, we are worried about the next generation of beasts, and this risks it all.

We wish you wouldn't do this.

And if they all want to shut up, that's what gets beat on.

Our White House people should shut up.

Of course, we had it before.

I can't believe it was that way.

Laos was that way.

Although they're pretty good, they're pretty good, but the trouble is, you know, when you talk about standing alone, do you realize, except for you, Baldwin, of course, by the way, he's on the top ranks, Colson, you, Baldwin, and Colson, that there's really nobody else on the White House staff who would stand firm in this?

What, Erdman?

Oh, no.

Erdman's not, Schultz was not.

Price, again, of course, would be on top of it.

Price wouldn't stand.

But your enormous credit, Mr. President, is I know no president in the modern period who, without cabinet support, in effect with no real staff support, would take the full responsibility for these decisions.

There wouldn't have been one play move last week.

No planes?

No.

I guess not.

No, we had the B-52s out there.

Remember, they gave us all the excuses, half the load, I should get them out there.

That's right, B-52s.

And we wouldn't move the Navy either.

The Navy, they didn't even think of now, it's the first thing they report.

Yeah.

They're firing so much that they've worn out some of the guns and they're pulling them back to Manila to put in new guns and shipping them out again.

Great.

Well, the name's probably Dan Crowder, no?

See what I mean?

Well, you see, when they know what the president wants, then they all think up things to do.

I'm not doing that anymore.

Yeah, they've now found an 8-inch destroyer on the east coast.

An 8-inch cruiser, together with 8 destroyers that's coming through the Panama Canal.

That's great stuff.

The Russians will pick that up.

I've got to go get these.

I'll get you these in time.

Yeah.

Well, all I need is a brief...

Well, what you want to do is what you're going to put down is what you want me to have happening inside of you.