Conversation 711-014

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Okay, I can push you off of that.

Yeah, the Kogel Hall thing, although they had a demonstration against the Chinese.

No, the point is the demonstration here was against her, and that's not good.

You know what I mean?

You don't put her, you don't put the family in situations where they have to take on antagonistic groups.

I mean, I don't believe in, you know, going to the... Do you remember I mentioned to you before, I expressed concern, but...

I just don't want to get her gun-shy.

And also, it isn't a good idea.

No, it isn't.

It doesn't serve any useful purpose.

Was there some reason for picking this thing for them to go to?

Didn't anybody think that the University of Maryland was not a good place to go?

Well, if we hadn't had the bombing thing, I don't think we would have had a problem there.

Well, most of the security on that Chinese demonstration ship.

It wasn't apparently related to the...

to look over the incursions they have and just gracefully, you know, let it cool just a little bit before you send them out when it's,

I think what I'm getting at is

Well, what I mean is, don't think that it's for you to hear.

It's going to be a hell of a lot of demonstrations.

In real fact, if they make such a huge assailant, it's a good demonstration of friendship between the American people and the Chinese people.

Yeah, but you can be sure this was approved in Beijing.

They wouldn't say good day to you.

Well, they were very friendly and personal.

Oh, they were.

If you think that 48 hours have to be found, I know in my farm they speak of the great American and the great Chinese people.

I thought you said they were going to cancel it.

Well, when I got that message that they had something to deliver at 1 o'clock in the morning, it happened.

Did he?

Of course.

He gets excited about things.

He sure does.

Well, it's amazing that you're bombing their ally.

Yeah.

We don't recognize them when they keep running around the country.

You know, it's really something other than that press corps.

They just hated this event.

They're not fit to live in this country.

They're not the pro-American.

They're for our enemies.

Well, they're worse than that.

They're for the enemies.

And it's just wrong.

I mean, I...

You've got some senators just like it.

Blair's still on.

Oh, did I?

Yeah, stood up for two and a half hours.

But he's on television.

Yeah, rolling in real life.

That's right.

The first government senators are just as good.

Blair's good, too.

Wow, he had one exchange report by a starter.

You know, he was obviously going to one of the

I don't know where they get their legitimacy from because the public opinion, I don't have the answers.

Another thing that Senator Hamilton said to me yesterday, he for the first time watched a news show and he said

did, who would do what Cronkite did last night, I don't know what he did, to editorialize how much of the presentation of the news would be thrown on BBC.

What was Cronkite on last night?

I don't know.

It was probably no worse than we used to do.

Yeah, I was going to say, it was part of the course.

It was normal.

Because they do, they do, they all editorialize all the time.

They talk about, you know, did you ever

The British made a good statement supporting us.

But this is a good story to happen this week.

Oh yeah, it puts it to the right place.

It's a very nasty situation.

Correct.

It's one we've always followed.

Of course, we've changed it with you some and it works pretty well.

But me, hell, I can go as far as I can go.

But you know, we're not for two years.

I haven't done a football game.

No, no.

I mean, we went to a couple of ball games and took that one football game.

Yeah, that was two years ago.

I've got to tell the Chinese today.

I've seen them in front of the TV.

That's the whole international situation.

This is an example of the distortions we have now introduced into everything we said to them is reaffirmed.

And as soon as I'm back from Moscow, I'll see him and give him a prefrontal.

Yeah, and also you could tell them that you will come.

That we will come to Moscow.

That reaffirms that we will come there.

You're not going to be quite as chosen then.

It doesn't do it.

We have to play stuff with them as we're playing with Moscow.

No, the Russians, I'm going to forget them in advance.

But it's amazing that they're not playing the game that the Russians played with them.

They're not needling the Russians with that lack of support for Vietnam.

They're beginning to feel annoyed with ambiguous references that fly, we told you so.

About the...

CIA made an analysis of Cho's statement, and since they don't know what we know, they said it almost one would think that he was telling them, I told you so.

He speaks about the unprecedented American filter, which went beyond what anyone had projected.

Three?

Yeah.

Well, three's fine with me, except I'll have to fix it.

You couldn't do the fixing without us taking that?

Yeah.

All right.

Is that right or not?

I don't know.

I put two 30s back.

Oh, these three do the three.

It's three, and then we've got to cut all the way.

Because we've, mainly because we're more experienced, let me put it only because of that.

I mean, we know where they move, Bob.

We know what campus, we know.

Also, we know that the situation in the present time is going to be a little rough for a while.

So we should just stay out of the public eye.

And I found the capitol yesterday.

I made the point to watch the crowd, and I stopped it.

They played that damn well, too, said they were.

Shouted at you and you appeared not to have heard them.

They did what I never did.

They were wrong.

They quoted somebody, you know, why don't you stop the bombing.

That was up in the campus.

Not where I was.

But you see, we don't throw somebody in the eye of the earth.

It isn't that bad.

Well, as we get into the campaign, I'm sure we're going to hit some of that.

There's just no point in setting one up and walking into it.

Yeah, just sort of trying to recognize that your live audience is irrelevant.

That's the point.

We've all got to realize that the live audience, its size,

I mean, the fact that it's a picked audience doesn't, I don't think, has any...

When are they supposed to have their big march here in Washington?

Well, he said it was very small.

Yeah, they arrested a couple hundred because they didn't have a permit.

They just did it at the last minute.

He said they were the most horrible looking people out in the car.

Really?

I don't know.

They came down to the White House and told them to move and they didn't notice it.

It wasn't good.

What's the riot that's scheduled this Saturday?

Same thing.

This Saturday is all over the country.

other cities and so far the indications are not much of a build-up.

And then they're moving on this national student strike on Friday.

What do you think people think about when you've got a pretty college student strike?

Well, not much, first of all.

Secondly, I don't think they're going to be on the strike.

I really don't think college students are very

They say they have to redo the picture and the certificate so they won't be ready on Wednesday.

Well, the three, the rest of them are ready at the end of the week.

What three is that?

The three that you wanted to present.

But it's so late now, why don't we just let it go, let them all go at the end of the week?

Right.

But we'll still have you doing what you want.

Okay.

Then we had Wilson, Capo, and Helen Thomas.

So anyway, we should have done this week.

If there are any of these little farts that are not going to court, and they're not being drafted or anything now, it's really down to nothing.

And squeal about it.

You know, we are fortunate, though, that we had rockets on yesterday and later on.

Very good.

That's a good line.

And now we'll get a good, about to say, he's not so long now in any space.

There you go.

He's standing hard.

That's ridiculous to have to go sit through that crap in the hospital.

About three of the girls looked okay, and there was a Korean kid who was looked by.

They didn't have the one really bad guy, the super hippie guy that wears overalls instead of gloves.

I think the Chinese love it.

It's very easy in any sport, but particularly in that sport, you just miss one shot.

A lot of it is playing your hard shots, but always practice the shots that are

They're all much more impressive looking than ours.

Well, frankly, you've got to say this.

These kids that I saw, the Chinese kids, they were thin, lean, tough.

They looked you square in the eye.

They were pleasant, the rest.

And ours were, frankly, a motley crowd.

I don't like that you tell the truth.

Jesus Christ can't beat any people that are free and still look decent.

Well, we've got a lot that we, you know, not in this one, in that particular group.

So, of course, we've got a lot.

Well, you know, I mean, you don't like them, but our tennis teams are, again, sharp-looking.

Most of our basketball teams are basketball.

I suppose they are.

Most of them, I don't know, you know, other blocks and everything.

But they're mostly black on the one.

We wanted to be thoughtful.

We wanted to be, shall we say, rational.

Those are the things that appealed to the vice president.

I know, that's it.

He's got a new speech already that's doing beautifully for him.

That's right.

That speech yesterday in Houston just occurred.

Nobody's talking about it there.

Food prices.

Oh yeah, I heard about it.

And he did very well.

Yeah, right.

You're concentrating this week on...

Oh, he's great.

He's a lot of the fighting.

Yes, sir.

He's as hard as they come.

Well, you've got him.

And he was very up about it.

He's briefing senators today, which he readily agreed to do.

He was kind of feeling .

That's right.

But he's got .

He's got Goldwater cranked up today with a resolution which he's drafted.

Great.

I'll just tell all the others that I hope you were thinking of.

I just assume that you're doing most of these things.

Yes, sir.

We are.

All I have to do is chart from time to time as I was in the middle of the night.

I didn't think of something.

I'll just send a memorandum.

Yes, sir.

And then you'll kick the shit out of me.

It wouldn't matter.

This is more fun than... Let me tell you, you're going to look awful good to me.

Well, I think we have an enormous length that...

It's just going to be a delight to saw them off.

Let me say this.

They're all women in one sense.

It's very dangerous for anybody to be against this country in war if this country wins.

That's right.

And we are going to win.

We ain't going to lose.

Now, that's the thing.

They don't realize.

These fascists think that we're going to crawl out of there.

agrees to negotiate a peace.

What in the name of Christ is he talking about?

Well, these muskies should be murdered on that.

And you see, I think they ought to be given as giving any comfort to them.

I'd use it.

I'd use the treason line.

Well, so I'd recommend quite that.

Just so that it's, you say, well, that's the lines of the Constitution.

But you see, one of the favorite things I've solved before, it's still got home.

But use lines that come very close to the goal line.

I'd say,

They're giving their...

They're condoning North Vietnam at the same time.

Well, they're defending the enemy rather than defending the United States.

Defending the enemy.

And they're attacking the policies of the United States rather than the policies of the enemy.

I mean, I think a lot of Americans...

Casualties aren't like that.

I mean, you've got 12, 13, that's all.

Second, more important, we've withdrawn half of it.

We've made a peace offer.

We've rid the China.

We've done everything we can to these bastards.

Now we're trying to humiliate the United States.

Who's the word?

The United States will not surrender.

The United States will not be humiliated.

We cannot play the role of peace in the world.

But you know what I mean?

This is something for you.

You've got all of your...

I'd like to see Muskie, Humphrey, and Terry come out there.

Right in the chunks.

I'm not quite sure, Chuck.

I don't know.

Oh, I agree fully.

I'm not sure it would leave Montgomery out, though.

I think by the amount you heard him, I think we want to help him.

That's right.

We want to lump him in.

He's been front-headed both ways, and he can't do it.

The President is tickled by that, and he says, guys, you can just knock the bejesus out of him on that stupid U.N. thing.

The U.N. thing.

Why do you have to understand what the U.N. and the Soviet Union are both members of the Security Council?

And why do you have to think a little bit?

I think that there was...

Mr. President, it's six years too late.

What on the Christ is he doing?

Who the hell is he here?

Democrats, Mr. President, are, in my opinion, completely misreading the move of the country.

I don't know what the move of the country is, but the main thing is I'm not going to be moved by a total win.

I'm going to give a goddamn what the polls are saying.

We're not going to change.

We're not going to be worried about it.

We're not going to be worried about race.

We're going to do the right thing, and it will come out all right if we do the right thing.

But it doesn't make any difference if the country is totally against it at this point.

If we go that way and do the wrong thing, we're down too.

So we're going to do the right thing, and the country then will appreciate it if it doesn't have to goddamn happen.

But I think that's a very good thing to pound on.

I mean, I think a few who get to the point, which it is, we're putting all the chairs on the line.

We're risking the Moscow summit, we're risking the election, the generational peace that I've made, the prices I've made.

and his Irish rages and everything.

The Colas got that decision, never been made.

Or we did the Cola liberation and brought Laird and Rogers taking the screening to support it, but they finally supported it Monday.

I think Rogers is the person that by supporting it, he's come out.

Well, he definitely more, let me say, the only time Rogers has ever been billed is when he didn't.

I'll tell you something, Chuck.

I'll tell you something.

I called him last night to congratulate him and everybody did.

I called him, too, and I called him this morning.

I did not even call cabin officers for doing what they ought to do.

But I had an argument that said to me,

Charlie Wilson, 1953, we were riding back on one of the few times we were talking about this generalism for a word to the president.

Charlie Wilson talked about, well, it was John Hanna of all people, what a great job John Hanna was doing to see a man talk and so forth.

And this is definitely one of the real events.

did it for his position.

Because he said, he said, I completely agree with that.

But I said, I do not believe that the mayor should have to commend you for doing your duty.

And not that he's right.

The man that does his duty should get enough satisfaction.

He was going to stay with it and back off of it.

He was scared.

I gave him the Sendlinger Pro Results last night.

And that just sent him up the door to me.

Sendlinger, as he knows, is not a very active bolster.

He's active for that moment, but he doesn't...

He reflects the mood of the day and...

So there was no build-up?

No build-up.

I told him about the Huck Ascendant Rising and that he...

He couldn't wait to tell me that he had appeared on television where he had said to the committee, who's going to condemn North Vietnam?

The case very weakly said, well, I had said something, and Fulbright just said they're looking king.

But as of last night, he had his point.

I think he's trying.

the way Americans are risking their lives to prevent a communist invasion, a takeover of 70 million people, a communist, but use the word communist, use the word enemy, use the words, you know, assassins, barbarians, killing civilians.

Three years.

He had kisses with you.

He never asked me to get them.

They all do the very same speeches for me.

The other side.

And the press only refers to the other side.

And Rogers did that.

That's where Porter was forced to respond.

and killing our men.

Now, God damn it, somebody's got to get their little guts around here and start talking that way.

And I need to talk ruthlessly and talk meanly about these people.

You see, I feel the reason we haven't been getting through is it hasn't been wrong.

The idea that their predictions were wrong is not.

The press therefore

I want you to work on this.

I'm here to help us.

We need a number of workers.

We've got a number of issues to make.

We've got to get the only right over there to the right time.

We're getting good substance, but it's tough stuff that's going on.

You see my point?

This guy writes good stuff.

No, maybe the other guy does no stuff.

Noah Cook.

Oh, yeah.

He writes very cutting stuff.

He's basically a painter.

lost my intelligence you need this right now we're up against a mean bunch of masters aren't we yes sir but you told robert you thought the center of the country was he was excited because he got you know my daughter he got booed out of the ground yesterday so i said well

I saw that on television last night.

I didn't think it was a...

It was a pocket of it, but...

Forget it.

You've got to take it with you.

Well, the ironic part of it is that the government's probably helping him in Massachusetts enormously, which is just delightful from our side.

Yeah.

Terrific.

And it's given him... That's right.

He must be going all out that way.

That's right.

He must be going that way.

much better politically than they did yesterday.

I don't know if you saw that.

I saw it a couple of days ago.

I don't want to...

I don't know if last night he was on CBS or NBC.

I had a lot of war.

A lot of war.

It was a bit marvelous, but...

I know you tried to mean that.

I tried to force it with that.

Well, now you could have said something.

You could have said something.

We had to build the CDs in for the FW press conference this morning.

I had not gotten the outcome of it yet.

We wrote it, and it's like Greenwood used to say.

He's talking to critics.

They're selling out their country.

He's willing to keep talking about your irresponsible rhetoric.

He'll toss anything he wants.

His basic line was that most of the press and all of the Democratic presidential candidates, he says, I speak as a lifelong Democrat.

want to see North Vietnam win the war.

That's the basic problem.

Let's call a state a state.

They want to see North Vietnam win the war.

They can't afford to see North Vietnam win.

But we have a resolution going tomorrow, or going today, it'll be filed tomorrow by Goldwater, and it condemns North Vietnam, and he's going to use this tomorrow as a vehicle to ask every Democratic speaker, will you endorse this resolution before you speak?

A lot of them won't, because we put a couple of hooker phrases in, they can't endorse it.

How about getting a House resolution?

If somebody could just run through that House like a dose of salt, starting with, of course, Mayhem, and if you want to put it in terms of condemning the enemy.

Remember I told you guys we'd like this House yesterday?

Get one over in the House.

The point is, you're likely to get them.

See, the House loves to piss on the Senate.

And maybe you get the House guys to run it around and

Well, we made it just so that Kennedy and McGovern couldn't sign it because we don't want them to go sign it.

This is one the White House president could hit on Friday in a speech.

It's a shocking thing that they will support all of these amendments trying to cripple our government, the United States' ability to fight, and they will not even sign a simple resolution concerning the county

That's the kind of language that you can be very irresponsible at this point.

Remember, you've been warned off.

And to kick the shit out of them.

They ought to banter.

be on their feet throughout that debate, back to the Democratic speakers, we would condemn our freedom.

We had, we, we're set up then also.

That's all laid out on our shoulders.

It may have had a wild, vicious debate.

It has all the makings of it, that's all.

It may need to jump to get across the line.

The other thing that I suggest, did you think of the idea, did you think well of the idea of trying to add or anything?

Yes, sir.

Maybe not.

Well, I think so.

The draft of that will be in my office mid-afternoon.

The other thing is, I do think you should start the network, abandoning the networks.

In other words, raising hell away from Coyote and all those sons of bitches, you know, screaming about it.

Actually, you can get the virtues on the loose on this one.

You can find it in the apps and the human events and all that.

Human events is kind of, Buckley has been superior.

I hear that.

The government conservatives really cranked up on this, and Goldwater is the happiest bullet in the side.

Is he?

Oh, he's taken everything.

He recommended it.

That's right.

He's taken everything we have sent to him and used it literally, which is a sign that he's very much on board because he usually fixes these things.

But now they're gonna get to, what's your judgment is that the, you see the public side of it.

is that the public before have always thought that we were the ones that provoked some kind of action.

And in this case, it is absolutely clear to the vast majority of the people that this was not the enemies.

Invasion.

Remember, don't let them forget it.

Coupled with your January 25th speech, where people, there's a great deal of sympathy where people are saying, all that man is trying to do to end this war

And those dirty concepts would do this.

We've withdrawn 500,000.

We've made an offer of January 1 to be the peace offer, along with the South Vietnamese, which Jews are the reason.

And it could cease firing throughout the nation.

And a remedial exchange of all .

And total withdrawal of all American forces and all this.

And their response is a massive invasion.

Now, what can the United States do under such circumstances?

Well, all we can do is assault them.

That's exactly what Sinlinger says is the public reaction he is getting.

As of last night, the percentage of people who feel we should go out and win the war is up to 40%.

That there are angry comments, that people are mad at the North Vietnamese, and that they are very sympathetic

to bring the water in and what a terrible thing they have done now by this act of aggression.

And he concepts them too very, very strongly.

He also points out, for whatever value this poll is, that Humphrey and Muskie have declined dramatically in the last five days in this political poll.

And he held very high that the food price issue is not being mentioned

Faded under the back burner.

Well, this is what's the fact.

What's the fact that people have been diggling down?

Yeah.

The public psychology now is that food prices are going down, so everybody's relaxed about it.

And that Humphrey and Muskie in particular have declined and Wallace gone up largely because of the hawkishness.

What line did Wallace bring up?

Oh, hell.

He said, I want to see our boys come home, but I want to see them come home alive.

And whatever he was on, I thought he was as effective.

In effect, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that was the effect of it.

He was asked about the doctor.

He said, I want to see the boys come home, but I don't want to see them come home alive.

And whatever we have to do to bring them home alive, that's what we have to do.

I thought it was as good a statement as I've seen him make.

He doesn't direct him on, say, I support the president on his job.

But he doesn't depart from it either.

It's Jackson, Jackson.

Jackson, yeah, but he says you're doing the right thing.

He just doesn't understand the time.

He doesn't understand why he waited.

Well, he's not making really that much impact.

Jackson doesn't make any impact.

Wallace does.

Lewis Beaton has his analysis in the paper this morning.

He's making the point that everybody's saying that Muskie's and Humphrey have dropped.

He says that that's not the significant thing.

The significant thing is that Wallace is game.

He says that, yeah.

Yeah, and that's come through.

Being in person is not going to vary a lot on the whole story.

He's not going in his fold.

He's an analyst.

I thought he was doing his full analysis.

Yeah, the view is that Wallace is an issue.

Well, it's the Gallup.

He's picking up the Gallup data.

I think you're right.

Wallace is taking it from Hewitt.

He's showing it's up a little.

And Wallace, I mean, Humphrey or Muskie down a lot, and Wallace up apparently.

The latest Harris polls will show Humphrey up a little bit, and Kennedy and Muskie both way up.

God, he's picking up delegates all over the place.

He sure is.

Incredible.

Is he?

Yes, sir.

He's stealing them, right?

Oh, he has a real opportunity to have 1,000 delegates coming to that convention.

That's correct.

And that's a third of the chariots.

He always polls at the wrong time.

Well, he polled just before it.

Of course, we were pretty active then.

The invasion was well underway at that point.

The Vietnam was back on the front pages of some sort of thing.

to me it's shocking that

And they can even think about going as far as they can and get away with it.

And the whole damn country should be outraged at them.

It's a sign of the times that the United States Senator can talk the way Kennedy did.

And people say, well, that's Kennedy.

You know, if there's some way you could get word, I'm trying to get some stuff planted, that the effect of public opinion is against these suspicions.

two days.

Thursday.

Is that right?

We're sending that up to, well, not here, but we'll give them an assist in getting some press out.

All right.

That line has moved pretty well across the board this weekend.

Newsweek carried it.

I thought they had, and he worked hard, particularly hard, that they had the line that, here's what all the critics are saying, but oddly enough, the people seem to be with the president.

They kind of gave us a grudging nod.

I think even Sebrae did, to my astonishment.

Yeah, he did.

He was critical in saying a terrible thing.

And that's it.

But oddly enough, that's what the people want done.

The idea that the people are behind you is...

I'm just concerned that he's got this.

Yeah, but I think it's come through a hell of a lot stronger than any previous Vietnam...

Well, it was somewhat that way in Cambodia.

Despite it there, it wasn't there in the presence.

The press was almost apoplectic in their opposition.

And hammering us even harder, they don't listen.

They're not hammering us harder.

They're afraid.

On the other hand, what sustained us in Cambodia was the fact we were running.

And the people didn't.

They have a sense.

That's part of it.

Yeah.

And if there's a great outcry, they don't sense any, even the, you know, the bureau chiefs and stuff that are under arrest.

The ward, the ward, Mr. President, has been depersonalized, which was the... You mean because of the fact that you had draft calls.

You had draft calls, casualties, and a number of families who had...

sons in Vietnam or going to Vietnam has become very, very small.

The people that do have children there know that a lot of them are not anywhere near a combat center.

So the war does not have the personal involvement that it did in Cambodia, where you had a hell of a lot of American troops.

Very much as well.

It's different today, and the mood of the country is different.

Cambodia got highly inflamed with Kent State.

I can't say that a lot of other... Laos, too, was bad because of the horror pictures of the defeat.

Laos wasn't bad.

The fascinating difference here...

It didn't go as well as it should.

That's right.

The fascinating difference here, which I must say to South Vietnamese must be doing a hell of a job in the field because the press, the country coming back from Vietnam on television,

It shows them in a very, very good light.

Yes.

And if they're showing them in good light, they must be doing well.

Because you know, if they could find it.

Yeah, they could.

I heard one of the police telling me some strange thing.

Wasn't that an AP report or something?

So they reported that there was one in North Carolina and he was chained.

Yes, that's right.

It was yesterday.

Unbelievable.

They found the body.

They found the bodies of the...

Not the officers, but the elicitants who were chained to their seats and to the tanks.

Fantastic.

Maybe they were just seatbelts.

No, these were steel chains.

They had them locked in so they wouldn't leave their tank in the night.

What good could they do with chocolate if they were chained?

They scared the seat of the tank.

The idea is that they won't get out of the tank and leave it.

if it's under fire.

In other words, what they're trying to do is to keep them in the tank so that they, if they lose the tank, they lose the tank.

That's horrible.

They become pretty hot on the inside.

Well, I wish you luck.

What is the news?

Any burger news on the side?

On ITT, they told Spartan they're out.

Well, the Flanagan letter was delivered, and they went into open session.

They didn't go into executive session, although they will this afternoon.

The morning is shot.

The morning, they fooled around the first half hour arguing over the Flanagan letter and what it meant.

In open session?

In open session.

Urban stuck by his guns and said, well, I'm satisfied.

This is all we need.

Kennedy and Tunney were obviously upstaged by it and very angry.

I think they recognized a ploy, and they also recognized that Irvin had been brought in.

And they both said, both Kennedy and Tunney said, well, we're not going to agree to it under any circumstances.

And then they were pressed, well, if the committee votes, that's a committee decision.

And Kennedy said, well, if the committee votes and it's a committee decision, I'm still a free agent.

I'm going to ask any question I want.

Connie said, I will never agree to this until we have Kauai, and Timmons, and Ehrlichman, and Colson, and went through the whole way, I said.

The Republican position in the executive committee, which I cleared with Mitchell this afternoon, is if they delegate an ironclad agreement that the Democrats are going to respect the decision of the committee, then we don't agree, which throws the Flanagan testimony right out the window.

But we still get the plus of the fact that we offered it, and we still got her.

Well, let's see how it turns out.

Well, if the Republicans do, I'd quit it with Mitchell so that we wouldn't have any problem with Marty.

He agrees that Gurney, Lester, and Cook this afternoon say, we want, once we vote, I'm pointing him coming to testify on the basis on which he has to testify.

then we want every member of this committee to say that he will honor the decision of the committee.

Kennedy's already said he won't.

nothing that's the point that's exactly why we're on sound ground but we could come out of today with no agreement on flanagan with the democrats having blocked flanagan's volunteering to appear and with flanagan having made a very point coming off in a testifying everything that has anything to do with findings and that might be the first senator it conceivably could be the first day that we get a bounce in our favor if it's

works that way.

The initial press is running, the wires are running, just like we wrote them, because they've got Irvin speaking out for us, the Flanagan offer being very forthcoming, and Kennedy and Tunney sounding like a couple of spoiled kids who are screaming.

The point is just... Those guys get to Irvin, that would be, I don't think they will.

They'll get to Irvin.

I think he's made it pretty solid.

Well, he's made it to the Southern Green pretty good, by the way.

He's made it to Clark McGregor as your representative.

With Phantom President.

Which makes it the club.

Yeah.

Closing in also.

So we may be all right on that.

And from there, how do you screw up Wednesday then?

So how do you keep policing that off?

Right.

Are they all in memorial services?

No, they weren't invited.

The fellow that's on that now is the U.S. Attorney from San Diego.

Very well finished with him.

Uh, he'll be a really... Oh, sure.

Who the hell recommended him for that job?

Uh, did he really want it?

Oh, I really want to know.

I don't know what he said.

Well, I'll be damned if he didn't.

Is he a lawyer for Smith or something?

He goes over to the morrow and says, we have some other stalls which might be employed to try to keep police in love.

And then the theory would be that the point is- He doesn't have a property.

Why doesn't he go ahead and police when he comes in?

No, I can't.

I haven't been able to sell that to his lawyer.

I just like to get him the hell out of here.

He was available today and I didn't tell him.

So did he.

We'll take a look again at the end of the day because we may have more of our options.

Well, I'd give you to keep them busy all day today.

Well, that looks now pretty good.

Don't some of them have to be on the Senate floor for the debate tomorrow, too?

Tomorrow they will be.

The Senate isn't in today, so they've got a free afternoon, unfortunately.

So tomorrow morning they will be in, and then they have to go to the Senate floor for the debate.

Yes, sir.

That starts tomorrow morning, actually, but the Senate goes in here.

So they could object to a committee sitting as well.

Well, let's do that.

That's a very simple thing.

One senator can object to a committee, say one senator's in session, and it's done.

Does anybody have the guts to do that?

A lot has to do it on the basis that he wants to be in the committee.

Except you just carried hearings the next few days.

I thought they agreed.

They did.

There's a kicker in that, which is they agreed to nine days of testimony.

As well as... All right, that's fine.

But Thursday will be the last day of it.

But they can just as short a day as possible.

The way to do that is to object halfway through the debate.

Another start, then interrupt.

When they've only had a couple of... We lost this a day, then closed it.

This debate's only three hours.

They can go back for 20 hours or so.

We're using all the tricks there are right now.

But we keep going.

We should.

I think we're going to come out looking better as a result of the finding.

I think we're offering it.

It hasn't been done.

I never thought we should have done it before.

We've now worked out a deal where we can appear to be boycotting and don't give about anything.

Well, before it wouldn't have bought us anything.

Now, this time it bought us something.

So it was a correct time to do it.

What is your judgment on Massachusetts?

When is that?

Is that next Tuesday?

Yes, sir.

Who's going to win?

Well, McGovern has gone ahead in the Becker poll by 11 points.

11 points?

He's been close to those guys by the Becker poll.

Hasn't missed too many times.

Yeah.

He's pretty good.

11 points over Muskie.

It's a two-way race.

No, that's when the whole field opens with Humphrey getting fifth.

Wallace and not Olson.

He'll pick up some.

He'll pick up five, ten percent.

McGovern will win it.

The one thing that Muskie has going for him, very, very strong in Massachusetts, which the press has not picked up, is that every officeholder, Democratic officeholder in the state, is for him.

And they're all kind of...

They have to be clear.

Well, if they want to run as delegates, they want to be going against the convention.

A lot of them are on the slate.

So they are campaigning like hell for themselves, not necessarily for Muskie, but that will rub off on him.

You don't think Muskie would win this?

No.

He's got the same thing going for him in Pennsylvania.

Yeah, that's right.

He's got the all-out opposition.

up a fundraising dinner for Muskie and $125 a plate, and it was entirely attended by state employees.

It was apparently like a tomb.

They expect that in Pennsylvania.

That's right.

And they open the yard too.

And the public eye is expected to get $100.

You imagine asking a California state worker to go to a dinner.

Jesus Christ, he took it against my ass.

I'll go to the Democratic dinner.

And then all of a sudden,

and all over the papers is a great scandal.

Go ahead.

The governor will not get the runaway that the press are now building him up for.

I think he's going to have a closer race than he thinks because of the local political opposition.

What about the next police in Pennsylvania?

All of the smart money is on Humphrey.

I think he could win.

I think if he just eked it out, it would be welcome.

I think if he and Humphrey carved each other up and both get about the same, with Muskie maybe just pulling it out, it wouldn't help him much.

I think if he takes a decisive defeat in Massachusetts to McGovern and a decisive defeat to Humphrey in Pennsylvania, he's finished.

He might not get out, but he'd be a pretty weak...

I saw that.

God, he looked horrible Sunday.

I...

He was on issues and answers, and he was... Well, I think what they did, I think they gave him some tranquilizers so that he wouldn't do what he did on Meet the Press.

On Meet the Press, he'd get mad.

Exactly.

I heard about that.

Do you mean he looked like he was an old man?

Yeah, I'm just surprised.

I mean, I don't know.

But he just was so...

He just couldn't get very...

He was insipid.

He was just...

He was so weak, and he talked

He nailed him on a column this week.

He talked almost entirely about his image himself.

And the politics.

Very little about issues.

And he talks about the mechanics of his process, his navigating process.

You haven't talked about why he should be president.

I'm just dragging on.

And the press started to blame him.

He just said that it looked so foolish.

What is the situation then that you want to see him?

Well, there's no question that Hocker is failing at the end.

Oh, I think he's in a little, all up, oh, up here with Steve.

Okay.

McGovern, will he stay in or will he get a cop out for, I don't know.

Okay.

No, we'll see.

You know, Kissinger believes he's going to stay in, too.

He says McGovern's people are too fanatic with him.

That's right.

I don't think he's going to be until Miami.

That's right.

The difficulty is that McGovern has got all those damn tiny people working for him.

I don't see how much of that will put the screws on him.

What do you think?

No, but McGovern will never get out until he sees that he can't be nominated.

As long as he thinks there's a chance to be nominated, he is going to hang in there very hard.

If he goes in with anything approaching $1,000, he's got to think he has a chance to be nominated.

Which, indeed, he does.

How many delegates do they have?

They have a number of delegates.

What do we have?

1,400.

We have 1,800.

It's just about that.

Anyway, let's come again.

3,100.

Does it look like McGovern might have 1,000?

Yes.

How are they holding on again?

In all the convention states and the district states and all that, he's got his agents, these zealots, working district by district.

They're playing the game the smart way.

To be perfectly frank, I'm 68.

We didn't make any bust out of it.

Nobody knew what we were doing.

McClindy's was walking around there picking up delegates all over wherever he was riding, sticking them in his pocket.

That's right.

And he would have... That's all the way to Oahu.

He had hundreds of delegates that nobody even knew were going to the convention.

McClindy's had stuck away.

That's exactly what McClindy's did.

And McClindy is no less a viable candidate for the Democratic Party than, let's call it what it was, the Republican Party.

If he would ever win California, I don't know how they would send him.

And he can win California.

And he can win.

Is that right?

He could well be the nominee.

He could be the nominee.

And see, California is his winner-take-all.

It's the primary where the delegates go.

There ain't no voter out there.

Except they've got a non-game in the Democratic ballot there, which is their unity move, which is they leave 33 delegates faces blank on each delegation.

But the understanding that the winner will appoint, as a harmony move, some of the delegates from the opponents' slates to fund his delegation.

So that this is the winner take all in that sense.

But of course he controls who he puts on.

He can point out where to close.

Take the weak ones out of the opponents.

But at least try to deal with their fighting.

Good fighting.

Oh, they're saying...

They are.

They're thinking each other around.

Are they?

Yes.

Not as much as they'd be nice to have.

Well, they did in Wisconsin.

They were getting down to the wire in Wisconsin, and they'll start doing it again.

In California, they'll have to.

That's always a better fight.

In Oregon, they will, too.

Oregon will be entirely a better fight.

You said you were the only one.

Probably the only one who still would not like to see Muskie, but not in the general election.

But I'm now...

The more I've watched him operate, I don't see how he can get the nomination.

Even though if he got it, I think he could pull together a tough national campaign.

Well, government is my candidate.

Yeah, I agree.

Do you think so?

Yep.

You think of all the young captains.

That's right.

He's a captain.

No.

He's not a Catholic.

He'd get all the yellow.

He's not a Catholic.

Blacks.

And he'd get some of the blacks.

Get the Jews.

Huh?

Jews?

Maybe.

The Jews want New York, though.

Yeah.

And he'll respect that.

But he would.

He's going to be so damn mad.

If McGovern gets it, you're going to have a hell of a lot worse situation than we had when Goldwater got it.

He would lose millions of conservative Democrats.

We only had one walkout on the Goldwater convention.

They'd have...

Javits.

Well, he would run.

Javits.

And Keating walked out.

Keating.

Keating walked out.

It wasn't Javits.

It was Keating.

Well, both of them did.

Did Javits go too?

But when they hit Rockefeller, you know, I mentioned.

When they hit Rockefeller.

Yeah.

Well, that was a miserable time.

That's what it sounds like.

I'll never forget that.

Oh.

The way they go around people.

You know, they're a little loitered around.

They're walking, talking.

So they did, they did.

But see, the McGovern people do too.

Do you think they can win?

The McGovern people?

Oh, absolutely.

They're convinced that if you get a guy in the way, this is a good thing.

If you get a true left candidate who doesn't equivocate on all these things, that the people around him aren't.

Since you've been worrying about much more important things, you have, and you should, the situation on the Democratic side has just continued to deteriorate.

It is worse today than it was yesterday.

And it's getting bad.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, yeah.

The only ones that have tried to apologize for them have taken the line that, well, the primaries don't need anything.

That's been the big hue and cry of the whole company.

Well, that's Musty's line, of course.

It's Musty's line.

What is he saying?

Yeah, he's saying the delegates are all going to come.

Well, but he's not doing so well there.

He's doing better there than he is in the primaries.

He's in the primaries and mad at one hell of a lot of folks.

See, you guys got a problem there.

Hubert isn't doing anything.

I'm telling you this.

Oh, isn't he?

No.

And the nice part about this is that this next Harris poll will show him as the strongest Democrat running against you.

Hubert?

Yep.

Which knocks the judge, knocks the Jesus out of anything Muskie had left to argue, which was that he ran the strongest in the trial.

This shows Kennedy and Muskie down by 11 points, Hubert down by 6.

So it will give him a little lift right after we convince him.

He will be very happy about that.

Let me say, though, in terms of the candidates, I agree it must be because of his blindness, which still will be probably the touchdown.

I don't have to talk about it.

I think Teddy would probably be the strongest candidate.

Must be a close second to him.

Then, I think McGovern, I agree, is terribly vulnerable.

I think Hubert is very vulnerable.

I think Hubert would have a problem, despite all of his God, not God, you know, Ray, Ray, Ray, and all that sort of thing, that he just becomes, that he could be pointed out to be rather a foolish fellow.

What's your opinion on Hubert?

My feeling is that he would be tougher.

I would think Kennedy would be easier to beat than Humphrey.

You do?

Yes, sir.

But we would beat him, Humphrey, on the defections he would take from the left.

The fact that the kids will not vote for him.

They'll vote for you ahead of Humphrey.

College kids?

Yes, sir.

Or not at all.

But he's the old politics to the young people.

Yeah, that's why I think Teddy would be a much stronger candidate.

Teddy has the advantage of uniting.

You've got his personal disadvantage, but you've got a monumental institutional advantage.

That's right.

Because the guy unites all of what the Democratic Party has got to put together to win.

Well, he also divides.

He unites the blacks.

He unites a whole lot of Catholics and Jews.

And the Jews and the press.

Pretty good combination.

That's Teddy.

Not enough to win.

The press would be God, they would have.

The alienates, or I guess, the people the alienates are the people that are ours.

He would make our, the people that are, the Nixon people would become so solid, Nixon, he'd never be able to jar them loose.

No matter what.

There were a lot of people in the middle, like we had said.

People in the middle, that's one thing.

Teddy would enable you to move way over to the left, because you could totally ignore your right then.

That's what you want to do.

You would own the middle.

He is so extreme.

I still say he's too far over on all of the issues.

And Chappaquiddick just cuts a hell of a lot deeper than we think.

I think that's the personal side, but the institutional side is still there.

And what categories?

Just the labor unions?

No, the interesting thing, Mr. President, the Catholics have not been voted from us yet.

And more significantly, the Polish Catholics have not been voting for Muskie.

I think the age of Catholics voting for Catholics, or Poles voting for Poles, or Irish voting for Irish, is going in a hell of a hurry.

Just those Poles turned out to be lucky to vote for Wallace.

And they are voting the issues.

Well, can I ask one other thing?

What about Ford Partizan?

Partizan is still a big one.

Nobody seems to think that.

He's fizzling.

He just

He created it as a lark, and he's getting the kind of results that would be expected.

He's even nuttier than he has been before.

He just doesn't even have moments of rationality.

He's just laughing.

But you have no chance for a quarter party.

Well, you also have the possibility of a governor.

If they deny him a nomination, he just might.

His supporters might pull him up.

Well, of course, it's one way to view it.

I'm afraid we are.

It can't be Kennedy.

Sure.

No reason why not.

Then you really, you really,

Send yourself off into a left-wing orbit.

You have no contact with the middle stream of people.

I do not think the Democrats will go for any of the so-called clean Southerners.

I think the Democrats are going to right themselves off.

And if they have, then we'll continue to continue.

I was still planning to ask you.

Ask you.

He's not strong.

No, no, absolutely not.

He's already broken.

He's been in the bussing plane.

The only thing he could get with the whole Texas was for John Connery.

Yeah, I think they're going to have one hell of an Englishman convention.

I think the bad, the weak spot in our whole strategy is on the inability, which is

I think we possibly could be brought back, especially if Humphrey would have made it.

He despises Humphrey.

That is correct.

Just some states, you don't have to, I mean, it would do it.

It is a few key northern states, I'm sure.

New York.

California, New York.

Ohio.

Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania, that's right.

I'm curious, I just saw Bradshaw this morning.

contends we're in great shape in Illinois next week.

He says there are also private feelers between Daley and Ogilvy that Daley wants to dump Walker.

Daley will never take Walker.

He can't take a lot of water.

So he'll be smart enough to make a deal with Daley?

No, Dave is in the middle of it.

and he was just with him recently, speaks in the same kind of terms as I hear that Rizzo does.

He just likes you as a man.

And of course, I... Well, we've heard that from other folks as well.

And I think it back today that Willa Crescent and Faith Staley is one of the great, great of our...

I've said it many times.

I'm the best mayor in the country.

Got to quit saying that.

Yes, that's... Not with Rizzo.

The old Rizzo was elected.

Rizzo was on television last night, and he just... Yeah, that was a marvelous little piece.

What did he have?

He was asked if he would take Barton, and he said, I'm standing back because we have the greatest president in history, Richard Nixon.

And we did it with a very inspiring voice.

He says Richard Nixon is the greatest president he's ever had.

And that kind of leaves you.

Well, I've got to get back to chores.

Robin, you get there, you don't mind, I just hope you can keep working with these guys.

Nothing less than a jug

This whole business of playing the patriotic bird.

Play the hog line hog.

You can't play the middle on this kind of issue.

You can't be too damn responsible.

I don't think you can get much more out of Rogers than if you just keep him from backing off.