Nixon, Haldeman & Woods on Vietnam War and Henry Kissinger

2:08He's planning to, but he's waiting for confirmation.
2:22I think, uh, yeah, I think so.
2:44Could you check Connolly's office and ask him if he could call at 9.30?
2:54We had a good meeting with Roger last night.
3:08Uh, we went to, we got there about nine, I guess.
3:11Was he not out?
3:12Not out with him?
3:13No.
3:13He was at home?
3:14He was sitting at home, reading or something.
3:17Your text line, he was sitting before you.
3:19It really was.
3:19Well, it's the right thing to do.
3:21Well, and it, it, uh, I think it paid off, because I think if we'd been out running up at this point, he would have been pissed off.
3:28And we went out last night, and Al made the pitch, and he, he put it very correctly, that we did for, we got this, and Bill, uh,
3:39He said, how was the message delivered?
3:44He said, the second guy brought it over.
3:47The other one is the message.
4:18I'll take a picture on it off the switch if you can.
4:21Bring it in to me.
4:24Do it.
4:25File together.
4:27I'll correct it.
4:28I don't think it needs much correction.
4:30It's probably just kind of an issue.
4:34It's a fine farm.
4:36Okay.
4:36Bill said, well, what exactly did the message say?
4:39I hate you to hell for not being with me.
4:44He didn't try to verbatim it, but he made the points that it said and how it said it.
4:49So what form was it in?
4:52House said the same thing as they did on something or other, a little sheet of paper, a white piece of paper, which is apparently the way they do secret things and all.
5:05And he hinted at the possibility of North Vietnamese participation.
5:08And Phil said, well, did the message mention that?
5:11And Haig said, no, the message did not.
5:13But Barranzo made the point that, of course, there was a third party.
5:19involved and they wanted to talk to us about Vietnam and of course there was a third party involved and we got the impression that maybe that's what they were saying but Henry doesn't feel that that's a possibility.
5:28He doesn't think the Russians can produce but it's a possibility that they may.
5:33So he did, Al did a damn good job and he sat there and he didn't flinch.
5:39It scared me a little because he
5:43Bill zeroed right in on specifics, and Al hit the specifics right back.
5:47Just damn neat.
5:48And you told him that we were just covering the camp digger.
5:52Yeah.
5:52And he said, fine.
5:54And he said, gee, that's great.
5:55And he said, I have a very good feeling about the way all of this is going.
6:03And I chimed in about the hard line he had taken and your comments at the State Department.
6:08And he said, yes, the Canadian problem.
6:11He picked that up right away, and he said, I think it may be working.
6:16Then he got it this morning.
6:21He got through that quite neatly.
6:24He didn't even say, is he going to talk about the trail?
6:29He didn't say anything like that.
6:31He didn't raise any question of that kind.
6:34He just went to the specifics.
6:36As soon as he had satisfied himself on that, he asked Al to give him a film on how things were in Vietnam.
6:44And he asked quite a number of very specific questions about the kind of tanks they were using and how many troops they had and two corps and all this sort of thing.
6:55chatted for a while about that.
6:57We were there about a half an hour.
6:59Couldn't have been more impressive.
7:04Well, I started to say it and he laughed and he said, you know,
7:10I wish I didn't have to be told that.
7:12And I said, well, there's no point, not the thought that you have to be told, but just to make sure that you understand what we are doing on this, which is that nobody is being informed, including Secretary Lerner.
7:24And I just want to be sure you do that, because you might assume that somebody knew about this.
7:29Nobody does.
7:31Well, that's good.
7:33That's all in my mind.
7:34Then he went back onto the thing of
7:36You know, I've never told a secret in all these years, and I've never told anybody what, uh, Herb Brownell and I did on certain things, and I never will.
7:43Yeah.
7:44He's a good man that way.
7:47Better than Henry.
7:49I think that's true.
7:49I think- Oh, yeah?
7:50I think- Henry Henry talked about pretending to.
7:53Yeah.
7:53But Bill- And Henry's interested in history.
7:55See, Bill doesn't give a shit about history.
7:57He's only interested in headlines.
7:59And a guy interested in headlines, if you don't tell it today, it doesn't do any good to tell it later.
8:05So he has no motivation to tell me that.
8:08Now, with Conway, I sort of agree.
8:10I think maybe I should just talk to him alone.
8:13I kind of think so, too.
8:13And the way I will do is to just say I'd like for him to work on the details with you and his statement and so forth.
8:19I think it's best.
8:22And I just say that, well, I regret it, of course, but I understand it.
8:25And I hope for the best.
9:02I told them that, too.
9:04We'll have to be a hell of a lot of people to inform us before we tell you.
9:12We can do that, and I'll work out a good scenario for you.
9:16Al is a very evil man.
9:19He's icy.
9:19He did a good job.
9:21But he's also smart, too.
9:23He knows all these moves.
9:24He's been in that defense bureaucracy long enough to know how to handle them.
9:35Well, that's a...
9:41Okay, well, we've got it.
9:42We're set on 8-15.
9:43Right.
9:44That's the date.
9:44Yeah.
9:46That's the basic approach.
9:47I'd definitely like to do the press conference on that.
9:52Thursday.
9:54Thursday's the best day if we should...
9:57It would be a good idea to change the...
10:10right on time.
10:12See you next week.
10:39We came out and argued all evening.
10:44The goddamn gilding lawyers did a hell of a job yesterday.
10:47The first five completely lost his temper.
10:51Half the gilding lawyers just blew up.
10:53Why?
10:55Well, because they were given evasive answers on some stuff and all that.
11:02By at one point said, well, Mr. Gillenwater, you at that time were Mr.
11:06Lieutenant Governor Reinecke's administrative assistant.
11:08Is that right?
11:08And Gillenwater said, yes, and I still am.
11:11And By said, well, by God, if somebody in my office, in my administrative assistant, had screwed things up the way you screwed things up, I can tell you that he wouldn't be sitting by my side at that table like you're sitting by the lieutenant governor's side right now.
11:25And Gillenwater looked at him and said, well, Senator, that's the difference between politics and statesmanship.
11:36And then a little later he said, well, Mr. Gilmour, your credibility has gone from 100 to just about zero during the course of this hearing.
11:47And Gilmour said, well, Senator, if my credibility has taken that direction with you, it's certainly gone up with some other people.
11:57It's great because he doesn't give a shit about the Senators.
11:59Not like our people who don't want to suck around because we have to live with them.
12:02He doesn't really, he couldn't care less, so he just kicked it back.
12:05Excellent, excellent.
12:07And I guess had some fun.
12:09Tell me, did, uh, did, uh, uh, I'll have to ask John, I don't know if I'll ask you, did his, did his police think of anything?
12:20Yeah.
12:21Nothing on television, but I got a very, very big radio network ride with, carrying your, your, uh, Jeeps thing.
12:31I don't think there was anything.
12:34It wasn't local, but I mean, I don't think there was anything.
12:37I posted it.
12:39Big story.
12:40I think you have a front page story.
12:44I don't care about the post though.
12:47I know.
12:47But nevertheless, we broke through a little.
12:51I think probably so.
12:53Also, on that one, there is some plus.
12:58It's obviously not worth very much time.
13:01Just to do it with Wilson and the message he gets the policemen around.
13:05That's right.
13:06Half-eyed Spartan cops.
13:08Oh.
13:08You know, I was going to say another thing.
13:10I don't know whether you noticed.
13:13I read the Post and the Times this morning on our TV.
13:16And me, sorry.
13:16And I thought I heard a few different stories.
13:18The same thing that we get all the time.
13:20And you got the damn Post.
13:23It's unbelievable.
13:23I mean, I read the damn Post.
13:25I mean, of course they talk about that.
13:27But I read it says it was even less than that, this and that, and the Times said it was...
13:34you know, played it fairly, pointing out there was inflation, but it was a big, it is a big thing.
13:39Well, the wire play and the network was that it was a huge increase in GMP.
13:45This month we're going to get the inflation, but the post, I swear to Christ, I thought I would read two different papers.
13:56See, that's why you shouldn't worry about that post.
14:01I must say that I hope
14:04John's statement.
14:05John has an idea, which I think is good, that once or twice a week he'll go out on the record and take these son's pictures online.
14:13Well, it goes with your thing.
14:15It did discuss, but nevertheless, John can scrape away a lot of underbrush documents.
14:20You see, he has distinguished himself there.
14:23is an expert.
14:25Ziegler will do it just as well, but he as an expert can go out there and handle those questions.
14:30I'll say, well, if I see Mr. Ziegler go out, I'll say, well, Mr. Gurley can handle that question.
14:35Like I say, it was Dr. Kister who answered that in his briefing.
14:38What do you think of the idea?
14:40I like it.
14:41Also, I think John's awfully good.
14:43Now, he would get a TV last night.
14:45He will come on.
14:46I've got a great theory of that.
14:50I think next time around, when we get past the election, I think early pressure should be made director of communications and press secretary and, you know, he should take on that whole thing and move out of the domestic business and run the thing on a basis that run.
15:09Never can.
15:10I think you need to change anyway.
15:13I don't think you should keep the same.
15:17But I think you can move to a different level and kind of... Ron also is a young man.
15:23He ought to get out and, you know, do something else.
15:27Yep.
15:28Well, we can move Ron out to a very big network job or something, you know, where he can do a lot of good, too.
15:42Well, sir?
15:45I think it's important to inform somebody to get to the Pope, cook and roll about this problem.
15:57Flanagan, maybe talk to Denuncio.
16:02I don't think Denuncio will be my Pope.
16:06I'm scared of her.
16:07Or have Hayes on.
16:07I think Hayes is better.
16:14And let Flanagan talk and cook.
16:17and let Colson talk to Kroll.
16:18Do you understand?
16:21Yeah.
16:22I just want to be sure they don't get tired of it.
16:27Cleary, what about the 301 on or off?
16:31We haven't had it confirmed, I don't think.
16:34Well, let me say, there's no real problem on it, because my view is we don't do the 301, I just do an hour's press conference.
16:42Yeah, I sure do.
16:44But I think that for that, if we can do it, I think the three-on-one board is a better format for us.
16:49It is because they'll have to be more thoughtful about what it's over and less plan-based.
16:57And that's a time when a lot of you do it on the common thing.
17:00There's going to be a massive problem in farming.
17:04You know, people who've got to do it in the morning of the announcement.
17:08You set it up, you see, you've got to keep this supposed to be, oh, I don't want this spread in the span.
17:14God, I was, you know, I stopped by Mel Yates' desk and said, it's all, wait a minute, my general, and I, she said, what is it?
17:20She said, it's your schedule.
17:21Of course, it's only the public schedule.
17:24I laughed at my, God, don't tell that many people what I'm doing.
17:29Oh, yes, we sent 120 of these every day.
17:32And they have to give it, they're two different schedules.
17:34I know that.
17:35I know, but I'm just, what I'm just suggesting is that
17:41Yes, of course.
17:42And they can decide that.
17:45Like, for example, one that needs to be informed is Billy Graham.
17:48He seems very disappointed.
17:50You're going to inform him, but don't inform him until that morning, either.
17:55Tonight, the thing that I suggest that we could have a year's scheme of 10 people around, if they could.
18:03Are they invited to this event tonight?
18:06You can see my point.
18:08I think getting people around, celebrities, to let editors shake their hands and so forth is a good one, don't you think so?
18:15Yeah.
18:17And a lot of it will have appeared, so it would be good.
18:22To the extent their schedule will permit it, we would like for them to be in the rooms so that they can talk to the various editors and so forth as they're around.
18:31You know, that's a much better place.
18:36If any, if we have any problems with the OEO or over at AGW and so forth on war protests, I want some fire at this time.
18:41Do you understand?
18:43I don't know what you've had yet, but if you do.
18:46Finally, I've got to tell you, last night I had my head banged.
18:51I told you I knew today I had to have it on my desk.
19:00Now we're going to cut the MIT subject.
19:07I mean, that's been three years.
19:08Well, I know, I know.
19:10And Schultz has killed him.
19:12Schultz.
19:12Because Schultz went there, and Schultz is an educator, and so forth.
19:16But I'll tell you, I'm going to cut the subsidy to higher education, Bob.
19:19I mean, the next budget, believe me, if you think it's...
19:23I mean, I'm going to cut the subsidy.
19:25You should.
19:26It's wrong.
19:27It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong.
19:29And I mean for the nuclear reactor to never ever go down there.
19:38I told him, you know, I said, there's no appeal.
19:42I said, I want it on my desk.
19:45I don't know Schultz and the others won't, but they'll come up with it.
19:50They'll probably say we can't do it, but I'm going to get that message through to these sons of bitches one way or another.
19:58Although I must say, I thought there was a pit of grease.
20:02They're just obviously trying to get out of hand with their suits here.
20:05Do you agree or not?
20:07It's a thing that obviously is a strategy.
20:09Do you mind if I leave the truth of the story?
20:13The truth of the story?
20:18You mean about the demonstrations?
20:19Yes, sir.
20:20Yeah.
20:20That's underway.
21:18But the great mistake in Patricia's case was my own.
21:20And I should have insisted.
21:22And I had that intuition.
21:24I said, in Jesus Christ, don't go to that goddamn university.
21:26And also, basically, the income crowd is a tennis crowd.
21:31Just no question about it.
21:33They're the same kind of shit asses that play tennis and ping pong.
21:38And there are some good people.
21:40But most of them are in the social country.
21:43You know what I mean?
21:43That kind of people.
21:44You were never going to go in front of them.
21:47Curious, a very great difference there.
21:50The golfers are more of my people.
21:53I go to the golf clubs and so forth, and it's very different.
21:55But the tennis grounds, bad news, bad news, always.
22:01You know, I don't think I've ever seen a golfer who was a fairy.
22:05And I've seldom seen a tennis player who wasn't a fairy.
22:08You know, it's very true.
22:10There's a strange, strange business about this thing.
22:15And that's unkind of tennis players.
22:17They're a lot of them aren't, you know.
22:18Yeah, but today it's going to learn to play tennis a lot.
22:20But it's really true.
22:22They play with that.
22:23You make a tennis-like game, it's going to play.
22:25It's nothing to do with the tennis-like game.
22:27Yeah.
22:29Well, they're not very leaders in the NBA.
22:30It's a rough game.
22:33But that's not how tennis is played anyway.
22:39I'm so glad you're handling it.
22:49I was amazed that it was as easy as it was because he just, I think part of it is his own, his frame of mind.
22:56He isn't in this shitty attitude of trying to defend himself.
23:00Well, basically he realized he did well.
23:02That's right.
23:03And then the new comment, how pleased, oh yeah, he went in.
23:07And we all are.
23:08I talk about how he used his, his, you know, and that, the company got a big flood.
23:17It did not compose the Times.
23:19No, it did on the TV.
23:21Radio.
23:23Radio.
23:23I think they had some of it on TV.
23:26And he also hit the press, being the editors on Wild.
23:34The need to stand up for the country.
23:38Good for him.
23:39The point that it needed to be positive a little bit.
23:45because I intend, you know, to have another one before I go to Moscow.
23:51I mean, no reason not to, you know, have this one and then have another one.
23:56Okay, well, try the sunfishes.
23:59Now, this one, I'll do it at 7.30, though.
24:01I'm not going to do it at the prime time.
24:04I don't think it's, I think 7.30 is a safer time.
24:07The only question I have with regard to, well, even then, since we haven't had one for a long time, I just might go for an hour this time.
24:16I wouldn't because I don't think you gain anything from it.
24:20No, but you only gain from it.
24:21You should ask the press.
24:23They're going to say, well, can't we have more time or something?
24:26An hour is busy.
24:27You've given them the time in here.
24:29Yeah.
24:30Well, it's true.
24:31I don't think it makes any difference.
24:33I was quite worried about what the press needs.
24:36I think a half an hour on a general press conference is long enough.
24:40I think on your summit drop-off, you shouldn't use an hour because you should give long answers.
24:52It's expensive, but this suit is awesome.
24:55Did you talk to Andy about going to the church yet?
25:11I'm just going to go to Los Angeles, you know.
25:15Whether you did or not, my view is don't get no great things.
25:17I mean, after all, it's a religious matter with me.
25:20And I'm just going to Sunday.
25:22I don't want to make a big thing out of it.
25:25I just don't want to raise it with him on Sunday.
25:28I want something scheduled Sunday morning.
25:29And I'm just going to go to the church.
25:31Because, you know, we love the food.
25:36Tell me that...
25:39I think that they talked about it.
25:40I don't think it did.
25:42It did.
25:45We should purchase some.
25:46How could he say no to that?
25:50I mean, if the question was put broadly, if he said, obviously, it would change for us the objective.
25:57But then, if the question was not germane, the chairman's rule could have lost.
26:01Oh, then he didn't answer the question about whether he contributed.
26:06All right.
26:07Whether I didn't contribute will have to be germane.
26:13And then they got into the Kennedy that had objected to the objection.
26:16And the chairman ruled that that whole matter would have to be discussed in the executive session.
26:21It couldn't be discussed in the office session.
26:24And at the end of the police's testimony, they questioned whether the police would come back or not.
26:30And I don't know if I've ever written about that.
26:32And in the middle of that, the chairman of the bank of Yeltsin wrote through this witness and will adjourn.
26:38Chairman, at that point, was about eight glasses into his bottle of Chilisery, who apparently had steaming no pain.
26:53That's crazy.
26:54McGregor said he was at a dinner last night, sat next to Birch Bay or something.
26:59Bay said, what do you got us with?
27:02Clark said, what do you mean?
27:03He said, we've only got five boats, the most six.
27:07in order to try and continue anything or screw it up today and Thursday.
27:11So, uh, it'll end up with us.
27:19We'll do well today.
27:20We have no problem with them.
27:23And then we can proceed with matters when they finish with him.
27:28So I think we're all free.
27:30Well, let me say that they may not.
27:34So I don't say we're all free on that.
27:36We've got eight more hurdles to get over on that.
27:39They'll have a long debate, parted around.
27:41And then if it goes on and then it gets out, I think that's all right.
27:46Okay, but he'll be, see, he will be in the process.
27:48He'll be acquitted.
27:50Acquitted, that's right, by the committee.
27:55And the committee will report out a favorable date.
28:02Then we say that the Senate's own committee has recommended its approval.
28:07I want you to make a note of it.
28:09Well, Colson, I guess, they should have a vicious attack now, all on the civilization.
28:20Don't you think so?
28:21Oh, well, wait until we get it done.
28:23Because you've got to be careful about getting crosswise with Irvin and all that.
28:33See, now they've got a week in which to file a report.
28:38They don't vote.
28:39Do they vote today?
28:40Well, they can take the picket.
28:43They don't think so.
28:44Oh, I see.
28:46But we don't know what the opposition will do.
28:48Our plan is not to vote today.
28:50Our plan is to terminate the hearings and go home.
28:53But when do they vote?
28:55Well, they vote Thursday.
28:56That's my point.
28:57Next Thursday they may.
29:00Good to do.
29:01I like to have it out of the way.
29:03Well, they're committed to filing to reporting back to the Senate to the jury leader by not later than next Thursday.
29:20So I think it will have a vote by something.
29:24They may vote today.
29:27But I would guess the opposition won't because they know they don't have them right now.
29:30They may take the lead to try and erode Irvin and Byrd again on the party lines.
29:36I think we've got Irvin.
29:37What is the situation with regard to Breitling?
29:41With regard to the...
29:42I don't know if there's some time to try and build up that yet.
29:52But you've got to make a note to Colson.
29:56But the war, the debate was breaking on party lines.
30:00And I'll come down to it.
30:04That we've got Spanish in there, we've got the draft in there.
30:07That was just the debate yesterday, which was on party lines.
30:12I know, but what I meant is that these were stories that weren't even talking about at the time.
30:17You can see what I mean?
30:18Yeah.
30:18Let's be sure we get a few Democrats.
30:21Yeah.
30:21Well, I think the Democratic caucus will not, it'll split wide open on this.
30:24They will carry it, but they won't in the caucus, but that's not surprising.
30:28I think it's just as well that they voted, they tried to put aside Goldwater and then North Vietnam, I'm not sure.
30:40Yeah, but we're trying to get them out.
30:43They refused to condemn them.
30:46That's what I mean.
30:47Oh, I want to really slap the shit out of them on that.
30:56Or you can see any other strategy.
30:57Well, that's good.
30:59That's good.
31:00And that's starting to take over.
31:01Take over.
31:02See, I don't want to do this.
31:06There's a good cartoon today that makes that point.
31:10It shows a communist tank roaring across.
31:14It says, not one word of condemnation, nor the enemy's invasion.
31:17And then it shows all Muskie and all the people saying, oh dear, we should stop the bombing kind of stuff.
31:24But all of the...
31:27We've got to keep it up front and center because otherwise the war, it's our fault, you know, people forget and all that.
31:35No, it is front and center.
31:36You're right, we have to keep it there, but we have to.
31:38We're fighting it all the time.
31:40We're doing a good job on this one.
31:44And the wedding, you know, it's good.
31:46And the Watchers, Flair, Cotton, Agnew, you know, we've had a good week.
31:53And they'll have a good week next week, but it's, we can't get anything to say.
31:56And if we haven't, we could have some.
31:57We may not.
31:57I can't tell what they'll agree to.
32:04I'm writing.
32:04I woke up early, 3 o'clock this morning, and I written a memorandum to Henry.
32:10I didn't want to say it while he was here, because you know, he was so uptight.
32:14He worked so hard.
32:16But he had a very, very long, long, long statement.
32:19He was going to make an opening.
32:21He calls it an opening speech.
32:23He's always got this fetish for making an opening speech.
32:26He does it to the beat.
32:27I mean, he's not going to do a depression.
32:30With the Chinese, I think it was all right.
32:32With the Communists, the Soviets, it is not all right.
32:36He's writing for history.
32:37See, that's his mind.
32:40And I put the thing, and I'll let you see the memorandum in size only after I finish it.
32:45I had a cable time tonight, a couple hours.
32:49I put it to him this way.
32:51I said, well, you have to realize that Brezhnev's and Gromyko's purpose will be
33:01to filibuster about Vietnam and talk about the summit.
33:05Your purpose is to talk about Vietnam.
33:07In other words, their desire is to talk about the summit.
33:11Your desire is to talk about Vietnam.
33:13I'm saying that for two reasons.
33:14One, because Henry wants to talk about the summit.
33:17He just loves this excuse for going over there.
33:23He can't run.
33:24You see, he's bleeding now that he's getting to do what he's always wanted to do, to set up the summit.
33:29So I'm putting this brutally to him, very properly.
33:32And I can also say that I read his statement again, and I hold him very good on the substance, but he didn't agree that Gresham was, as distinguished as Joe Mines, was a simple, direct, brutal man, and that he should be very simple and very direct after a few courteous remarks at the beginning.
33:59You see, Henry is fine in negotiation after, when you get down to the specifics of the record.
34:07He doesn't have, well, he gets so wound up
34:21writing for history when arrested sometimes he misses the point that you just don't have to beat the goddamn subject to death sometimes you should go at it you flick it you come back so you see what i mean is it that sign is what i don't think i'll ever get it so you go on this if i have to be on the specific he's got to get it simple and he's got to be direct he's got to get that one
34:48And he'll spend the day with Brezhnev.
34:49And I know the communists.
34:52And Henry has a lot of philosophical stuff in there about how the Cold War had changed.
34:57Obviously, the old days thought of the war communists as being mild and things were true.
35:03And they thought that the United States was being a threat to them, which is not true.
35:07He's dead wrong on that decision to go to Harvard.
35:10And I'm confident that the Soviets, as Donaldson said to me, the Soviets don't believe Bruce Brown.
35:17And then a lot of stuff about a way that Joe and I would enjoy in our school.
35:42You see, if you go into that kind of subject, let me tell you why the danger of it is.
35:46The danger is if you go into that kind of subject, Brescian will immediately seize on that and pick you up and point at her, point at her, point at her.
35:55And Henry will be involved in that debate all day long.
35:58And at about 5 o'clock, Brescian said, well, I have to go.
36:01And Henry said, well, just a minute, Mr. Chairman.
36:03We talked about Vietnam.
36:06That's exactly what they'll do.
36:08That's exactly what they'll do, I predict.
36:11Well.
36:12So my way would be to go ahead and say, Mr. Chairman, I first want to say on the summit, it's going well.
36:24I've been talking to Mr. Brennan and the President.
36:27Everything is possible.
36:28The President will meet you halfway on every major issue.
36:34And I want to talk about that, actually.
36:42Robert said to me, there's going to be no successful son.
36:46There may not even be a son, because I have to be very direct with you.
36:49And I want you to know that.
36:50I said, I know you're a direct man, and the President is a direct man.
36:53And you like to straighten the shoulder, and here he is.
36:56And I think we ought to talk about him and see what we can work out.
37:02And get right into the start of that, and about the first narrative.
37:04Well, Henry said, he gave in.
37:06He belabored this.
37:13I'm getting ready to go.
37:16But he had a, with translation, one would have taken about an hour and 15 minutes, or an hour and a half.
37:27general stuff before he ever got to Vietnam.
37:30He got to Vietnam.
37:31He said, I'm doing this in order to sort of pave the way for Vietnam.
37:34But he talked about all the summit issues.
37:37He talked about all the philosophical issues, and then came to Vietnam and said, no, we'd better talk about Vietnam.
37:43That ain't no way to do it.
37:45You see?
37:46Well, I know it's not the way, because I know these bastards, these people are too smart.
37:52Henry would get his pants taken off.
37:54Look,
37:56He ends up playing everything instead of our job.
37:59His date meetings with the North Vietnamese are not examples of good negotiating.
38:06They were in terms of a little nitpick crap, you know, that he got through if they didn't give him anything of substance.
38:10I mean, you know, he farted around this and that the other day.
38:14But the point is that Henry, when he gets into this, he spends hours and hours and hours on philosophical bullshit, see?
38:25and argue with it.
38:27And that is totally irrelevant to the whole thing.
38:31Now, Rogers goes too much the other way.
38:33Rogers solely goes to what we read on, see?
38:35Yeah.
38:36And that's to put it, you've got to put a little subtlety around it, you know?
38:40You've got to make it appear that you're talking philosophically.
38:43But very, very early in the game, you've got to get the, right in the solar plexus, you've got to get their attention.
38:50Stick that knife in deep and turn it.
38:58But it's important anyway.
39:04I'm reading from Churchill to the man of seven years old, I don't know, in 44, 469, 70.
39:08And God damn it, he used to send cables off four or five a day.
39:20He did it all.
39:22Yet he lived a quite different life.
39:24He was in the battle.
39:26He always had his lunch every day.
39:28He died at night.
39:30He napped in the afternoon.
39:31And he went just, in the middle of the visit, he says, we went for a bathe there and a bathe there.
39:38What I'm getting at is that didn't he sort of float along clipping the peaks that he wanted to clip and letting other people pick up some pieces from him?
39:51He didn't have, well, he had an interesting thing.
39:54He may raise this with you.
39:56He said there are two things about the President that on a personal basis.
40:04One, I am very concerned
40:22He said, you can't lose.
40:23You're in perfect shape now unless you lose it, unless you make a mistake.
40:28He said, everybody has the most possibility of making a mistake.
40:30And the only danger of a mistake I see is in overreacting, is in hitting back too hard on too short a basis.
40:39He said, basically, you shouldn't react.
40:41You shouldn't be worried about the critics.
40:43You shouldn't hit back.
40:46And he went through that a little extra.
40:49And I said, well, John, that criticism, it may be valid.
40:52But if it is, it seems to me it must be a characteristic of the breed.
40:56Because you're much more inclined to hit back harder, faster than the president is.
41:01And he laughed.
41:03And he said, boy, you're absolutely right.
41:04And he said, I agree with you.
41:07It's a bigger problem with me than it is with him.
41:10Then he turned the other way.
41:11And he turned the other way and said,
41:15The thing that most impresses me now about the president is something that is not important as far as the public is concerned.
41:21It's not a point to make, but it's terribly important if you understand the problems.
41:25And that is, he is the only man I know in public life at a high level, or I've ever seen, who has the ability to do thinking and to force himself
41:41not to bog down in everything to the degree that prohibits his thinking.
41:45He said, when I was governor, I never, and all the time I was in office, never thought about anything.
41:52I just did things.
41:53And I realized now that I was wrong.
41:55He said, I'm doing the same thing.
41:56The rest of the time I do.
42:00All right, for the last 10 days, and we're going to go more elephant than you can.
42:05I just looked at that loose hammer.
42:07But I have thought much more clearly about what to do with these problems than I would otherwise.
42:13And I really believe, now on the new summary thing, you know, I, it's a , I didn't know they'd be able to not send the gosh damn name to them like another 80 total.
42:23Yeah, we weren't, then the question came up and we did it.
42:28Yeah, I would have signed the form for, I'm not going to,
42:40this weekend, you know what I mean?
42:44So let's not set it up, okay?
42:45Okay.
42:46In other words, when things are sort of hanging, I would just sort of knock it off for a while.
42:50I don't know how you can get away with it, but they'll notice it one day.
42:56Yeah, but that's just not done, too.
43:02It's a problem.
43:03You get used to that.
43:04You get up in the morning, you've got to have it like you've got a cup of coffee.
43:09The point is, it's not just the news summary, but it's refusing, and it's brutal to talk to cabinet officers, to staff members, and the rest, when there's something very important that I've got to be thinking about.
43:23I don't think all the time, but sometimes you've got to let your mind rest.
43:28You just gotta let it rest, you know what I mean?
43:30Well, you gotta let it go and overdrive the coast because that's when some of your good things...
43:34But even sometimes when it's flying, it's good for it.
43:37You just have to come back to it.
43:39But you see, if you're pushing it all the time, you over-strain it many times and you don't think, well, if you pop off too soon, it's over with me anyway.
43:49But at this point, that's why I...
43:55You know, in the 60 campaign, in the real sense that has distinguished from 68, that Madison and Klein were disastrous.
44:10Due to the fact that they had to come up.
44:16The fact that the person was not there.
44:20But it could be 60 months, but in 60, you know, everybody worried me about things.
44:26Screw it.
44:26There's nothing to do about it.
44:28There's nothing to do about anything.
44:31I don't think you should keep away things that you should, but this business of being obsessed with every story, every up and down and hold and all the rest.
44:43Somebody's going to come out this Sunday with this or that or the other thing, and somebody's going to have a blast when somebody isn't for it.
44:50That is what really disturbs people, and you've got to stay away from that.
44:53You've got to stay away from it.
44:54Very important that you've got somebody, someone who is watching and doing what you're doing.
44:59Because other people, if you can't just let those things run their course, because other people, it's true, will be paying attention to all those things.
45:07Not to the degree that we think they do, though.
45:11Maybe you're right.
45:13Maybe you're right.
45:14You know, you think of the time.
45:19Nervous, straining, man out of the event, put in that ITT thing.
45:23I just don't... Well, I don't think... Rose a little, but, you know, passes made that much connection, I think, or something else.
45:39Henry has, I think, one error here.
45:54He's thinking of this, that his trip, you know, like he did about his world report, his trip, it isn't quite the same because this is more newsworthy than his world report.
46:02But his trip to Moscow, it's going to be horrible to think, you know, he puts it all the way to something else.
46:11It's natural.
46:15You know.
46:17Not true.
46:18Not true because,
46:21He's done this sort of thing before, to begin with.
46:23The second thing is that, unless...
46:30Unless there's a clear...
46:34This is like, it's a loser.
46:38Do you agree?
46:38I don't think it's a loser, in any event.
46:42Because, just the very fact that he goes, I'll mark this tough.
47:08The thing was not on.
47:10Well, I hope you can retype it for one sentence.
47:15Well, I would say the way I started it, as I recall, was after reflection on your briefing book, I believe the opening statement should be much deeper.
47:30See, that's what I intended to say.
47:32I apparently turned the damn thing on.
47:35Sometimes it does happen.
47:36The electricity doesn't go on.
47:37I'll get this.
47:49Okay.
47:49I'll, I'll, if you put that one cent, that's not a cent.
47:54Is there any other cost?
47:56When you, when you, when I finish with this,
48:00I want you to take it over to Haig and tell him he should transmit it to Henry.
48:07Now, the one thing you should know is that, as you, of course, have gathered, you are in on something that nobody knows about.
48:16Totally.
48:17And that's nobody in your office or stuff.
48:19But the only person in that other office who knows about it is Haig.
48:23So you take it over and take it to Haig and tell them to transmit it wherever Henry is.
48:27Okay?
48:28Okay?
48:29And then forget that you heard it.
48:30Oh, I would do.
48:31Well, I know, but I have to .
48:34Oh, there.
48:35Oh, I know, but there are occasions.
48:36This is something I don't want.
48:38Marshall, for example.
48:39Yeah.
48:39Nobody.
48:40Nobody.
48:41OK. See, the general, the opening should all be mentioned.
48:47But I think we have to have in mind the character of the man we are meeting, fresh and simple, direct, blunt, and brutal.
48:54The sophisticated roast meat of the Chinese is either necessary or wise with that.
48:59On the contrary, while you should, of course, be gracious and forthcoming, particularly to be ending your statement, I think you should very quickly get to the heart of the matter.
49:08You will find that his interest period of talking to him will be to filibuster and spend relatively little time on Vietnam.
49:13Our goal of talking to him is solely to get action on Vietnam.
49:16I can put it with a demerit heart there.
49:19And it ain't even accomplished with him on the summit.
49:20He could have accomplished it as well with the brand.
49:23In other words, you should approach these dogs recognizing the fresh neck and popular mingo as well.
49:28What happens to their crying hearing?
49:32Their crying hearing.
49:33Getting used to their crying hearing.
49:40Getting used to talking about the sun.
49:48Your crying hearing, just in fact,
49:54but I think it would be well not to spend too much time on the general philosophy questions.
49:59My general philosophy is quite kind of a man, having in mind the fact that he may pick you up,
50:26I'll let you know when I'm ready.
50:27Having in mind the fact that he may pick you up.
50:43On those subjects, I'm delighted digressing in those fields.
50:46I think you can get across to him and his side as a kind of a man of residence, but I think the most effective way you can get it across is that he has top of his nails and insists on talking about Vietnam first and not letting him get away with discussions of philosophy and personalities or other some of them that night until you agree to some sort of understanding of Vietnam.
51:13I believe you're gonna have to play this pretty much while you're at it, as long as you have the most composition you can make in the spot.
51:18I agree.
52:26Vietnam, the Vietnam message, you know, having proved a strike, you know, we'll understand that.
52:33We'll stay in silence.
55:22He needs to hear it.
55:28Don't you agree?
55:37I think you're right.

Nixon, Haldeman & Woods on Vietnam War and Henry Kissinger

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Also recorded on April 20, 1972

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