Nixon, Connally & Bull on Vietnam War and Treasury Department

59:50He's got a... We, uh... We had to do a... We're not doing anything in Hanoi and Haifa.
1:00:04Are we ready for that?
1:00:18We've got another very good song there.
1:00:19I think it was a great show.
1:00:22You gave some reaction from the Hill, from the Congress.
1:00:26I'm going to send an invitation to the professors
1:00:30But the reaction to the country, I don't think Congress is reflecting the reaction to the country.
1:00:37The reaction to the country, pretty much.
1:00:39Well, as a matter of fact, John, Congress is not all that sure of itself either.
1:00:47You've got people, for example, obviously we've got Stennis and others standing strongly.
1:00:55And they're a little bit gingerly because they don't know what the hell
1:01:01See, they're going to paint themselves into a very bad corner here.
1:01:08You remember back in the period before the 1950 elections.
1:01:17Well, frankly, when the Democratic Party had its great stunt between Jimmy Burns and Wallace, and Wallace, and so many Democrats, including and others, went off that mark and joined with them.
1:01:32And virtually every time that came up on the side of the communists, in other words, never.
1:01:38Now, the, when a fellow like Jenner, and he was the one who used the term 20 years of treason and that sort of thing, it was certainly a gross libel and understatement.
1:01:52Nevertheless, the Democratic does, at the present time,
1:01:59after a massive invasion of South Vietnam, condemning the United States, Vermont, and not condemning the enemy, are going to run into a very, very serious problem of, now we're sending you on part of that subject.
1:02:15I don't know what he's talking about, but you took it on yesterday, I understood, in answer to a question or a speech.
1:02:24What'd you say?
1:02:26I just said it's unbelievable to me that we could have in Congress, and we could have the Secretary of State of the United States appear in full form in relation to cleaning the Congress for two hours and hear nothing from both sides of the aisle, both parties, senators from both parties, and the election of the United States in the face of a massive Congress invasion of South Vietnam.
1:02:47And I said those who criticize it the most are those who are most approved of it in the middle 60s.
1:02:54And I just hit it very hard.
1:02:59And I think it is an outrage.
1:03:01And I just think, well, it is.
1:03:03Well, as a matter of fact, we have to realize that let's face it, the war, people are sick of it.
1:03:11People want to get out and so forth.
1:03:16There's a narrow, narrow gauge there where people don't want to get out.
1:03:20They don't want to be kicked out.
1:03:22That's right.
1:03:22We don't want to be kicked out.
1:03:25I will never believe the majority of the American people want to leave humanity or be run out.
1:03:32And I was going to say, I said, this president has said he's going to withdraw the troops.
1:03:37He has withdrawn 500,000 troops.
1:03:39And he has said he's not going to take an aggressive position except to protect the remaining troops, to protect the withdrawal of our troops, and to permit
1:03:49contingent Vietnamization program to function.
1:03:52And I just obviously can't do that in the face of a massive communist invasion or invasion of the North Vietnamese without taking some action.
1:04:02And he's taken that action.
1:04:03All he's got is criticism.
1:04:04And I just, I think he can make that speech and I think he can get the majority of the people for it.
1:04:10And I must say, of course, I've said a lot of things.
1:04:14I've covered a lot of ground.
1:04:16But the response was,
1:04:19Very, very good.
1:04:20I thought it was a very good response.
1:04:24So I can't say it was all that one thing, but you talked about it.
1:04:29Where did you speak?
1:04:31The American Society of Newspapers.
1:04:34Oh, yeah.
1:04:35I was speaking at the big auditorium.
1:04:37I was speaking at the big auditorium.
1:04:39Up at the damn place.
1:04:40It was crowded.
1:04:42I did a terrible thing.
1:04:47I misread my watch.
1:04:50And I thought, and Rick, I was an hour off.
1:04:52I didn't speak that long.
1:04:54I was supposed to be about 15 minutes, which I did.
1:04:55I spoke for about 17 minutes.
1:04:57And we were going to have questions for about 30 minutes.
1:05:02And I thought I'd say about 40 minutes for questions.
1:05:06And hell, we were already, we already went out of time when I got to, we started later.
1:05:10I just did not want to watch.
1:05:12But anyway, we had 20 minutes of questions.
1:05:14That's why, that's why.
1:05:18Well,
1:05:20Well, Mr. President, I guess Bob has told you of our conversations.
1:05:22Yeah, and I, let me say that I understand the situation.
1:05:26You know, I mean, I, we talked about it on the 1st of January, and the, you, needless to say, the, you know, how strong I feel about how many
1:05:48in both what you're doing, your indispensability, et cetera, and what you can mean.
1:05:54And yet, of course, there are other considerations, too.
1:05:57I really, I mean, what you weigh, you have to weigh so forth.
1:06:07Well, I think it comes really down to what you just included, that you really have to believe that that's the way you should move for a number of reasons and so forth.
1:06:26And I think our real problem here, which I think we do have to consider, and which you will recognize better than anybody,
1:06:37is to recognize that you are considered to be the strong man, the captain.
1:06:39You are the one in terms of the economic policy that instills confidence.
1:06:44There's nobody else that instills it to the extent that you do.
1:06:47You are the one in terms of our international policy that we consider to be the strong man standing up for America.
1:06:57There's nobody else that we have in that category.
1:07:00And also looking at co-ledgering in political terms, you obviously are wondering, but if you watch it and see what it's going to do and all that sort of thing, is he leaving because he thinks the policies are wrong or because the campaign is coming or because of political pressures and all the rest of it?
1:07:24But I think that those problems could be solved.
1:07:28The only other thing I would say is this, that I would hope that we could work it out.
1:07:33I mean, if we could work it out in a way that stated properly, roughly, which we could.
1:07:43And so I think that the indication, just before I go to Moscow, is that
1:07:49What everybody, I mean, let's face it, people are not dumb.
1:07:53Everybody considers it to be the strong man in the cabinet, the left in the cabinet.
1:07:59It sort of weakens the position, you know, and all that sort of thing.
1:08:03If it appears that it's the breakup that usually occurs in the administration and it's last year, you know, it happens for all of us, you know.
1:08:12People leave for a variety of reasons.
1:08:17And I...
1:08:18I think, really, it's a question of how it's done.
1:08:21And after that, I think, too, that one thing that did it to me is some of my reassurance that afterwards, that you, wherever you are, you might be able to serve a very important advisory role, which even, you know what I mean, which even might be the way you weren't tied down
1:08:48What we know is the crap that you've got to handle, which is very important crap, like tax reform and a few things like that.
1:08:53But where you look at the broad picture, the broad political picture is not going to determine the elections this fall.
1:09:01There's no question.
1:09:02Not any of this.
1:09:04Not any of these things.
1:09:06But I feel that way.
1:09:07And also, I must say that in fairness, we have to realize that when you did come, you pointed out that you had no desire to be secretary of the trade union.
1:09:15You had no desire to stay in Washington or live in Washington.
1:09:18and so forth, and I know our team, and I'm perfectly aware of that, and you've actually stayed more than you agreed to stay.
1:09:27And so, you know, you see, that's part of it.
1:09:29On the other hand, I have to be quite honest and say that I actually regret it.
1:09:34But you, we really get it.
1:09:36I think you've got to just, you've just got to make your own.
1:09:39I regret that I called.
1:09:40I regret it, Mr. Perkins.
1:09:41I really do.
1:09:42But on the other hand, I look at it.
1:09:44And I think there are only, I've been, I was completely honest with Bob about it, and it seems to me there are only three alternatives, and none of them are really acceptable.
1:09:55And I readily admitted that a good part of it was my fault.
1:10:00I'm not trying to blame anybody else, and I recognize that I ought to be more tolerant and more resilient and more flexible in putting up with all these damn things.
1:10:12They're so irritating.
1:10:14But I reached a point where I'm not, and I don't know what I can do about it.
1:10:20And it's just not important to me.
1:10:22I have a constant running confrontation with the staff here, and it's not important.
1:10:28And by the same token, I'm not going to come crying to you at the bar all the time.
1:10:34I can't do that.
1:10:35And the third thing, I'm not just going to roll over and
1:10:38and let them roll me like they do everybody else in town.
1:10:41So none of these three things are exactly, and I don't fall out of it, but I don't fall out of it.
1:10:46And I don't leave here with you unhappy with me, because I have nothing but the greatest admiration for you.
1:10:53And I'm gonna help you, and I'm gonna help you in every way that I can.
1:10:55And I just frankly think that the best thing for me to do is go home and get out.
1:11:02And I think it has some,
1:11:05downside but uh i think we handle it right if i make the announcement right and just tell the truth just have to say i'm not telling you in terms of the problems
1:11:15I came for an indefinite time.
1:11:18I really had in mind to say about a year, I overstayed that year, that we've done the principle things that I think should be done.
1:11:27The economy's, in my judgment, is in excellent shape.
1:11:31We've still got a continuing battle on inflation, but the mechanism that's here to solve that, to pay more for the price commission, and the cost of living council,
1:11:41the international field we obviously can't look toward the solution for that this year anyway but we're making all the progress that i think we can make and uh i guess i think that's a logical time for me to for me to come here and just say that and not respond to anybody because i need more excuse than that and everybody's going to speculate on it but i can't i can't yeah now whatever i give you
1:24:28Well, I think that there's... Let me ask you this question about the successor.
1:24:33Bob said he threw out the Schultz man.
1:24:36Is that it?
1:24:37I don't know anybody else, frankly.
1:24:39George would be excellent.
1:24:41You see, I can't pick Walker or Volker because they're not close enough to me.
1:24:45And I have to have somebody that has been part of the policy.
1:24:50Also somebody that's a standard target.
1:24:53George would be excellent from every standpoint, seems to me.
1:24:57He knows the issues.
1:24:59He'd stand up to Arthur.
1:25:00He knows the international thing.
1:25:02He has very definite views about the international monetary thing.
1:25:06He could guide it.
1:25:09It would, frankly, give
1:25:12which he deserves.
1:25:13And I think you told Bob, Bob said you thought he'd do better than George.
1:25:19Well, he's just, he said the more I spoke to him, he had to give you two men of that caliber.
1:25:25And George sitting there would not, he's got obviously great influence, probably dominant influence outside of Bob, with the staff.
1:25:34Oh, no problem there.
1:25:35And so you have no problem there.
1:25:37You have no problem with the CDA or the cost of the council or the pay board or the price commission.
1:25:42So he could operate from that side.
1:25:44And he's not in the State Department's pocket here.
1:25:47And he's not there.
1:25:49He sure is not.
1:25:50No, he's not.
1:25:52I need to know that.
1:25:53No, I talked to him yesterday.
1:25:54Obviously not about that.
1:25:56We were talking about just general things.
1:25:59And he was quite critical of the State Department just on a voluntary basis.
1:26:02George, you see, beneath that very kind exterior, Professor, is a stronger man than you think.
1:26:10Yes, he is.
1:26:10Is he freer?
1:26:11Yes, sir.
1:26:12Because he's a strong man, Secretary of Trade.
1:26:14That was the problem.
1:26:16Kennedy was a fine man, but not strong.
1:26:19George didn't have any stamina.
1:26:20George has a lot of stamina.
1:26:22He's got a lot of stamina.
1:26:23He's got a lot of strength.
1:26:24And he's tenacious.
1:26:26He's tenacious and he's smart.
1:26:29Smart in the sense of knowing how to operate, and he understands his bureaucracy.
1:26:34How would you handle physically the announcement thing?
1:26:41I suppose that what should happen is that I would walk out with you and do the reverse of what we did before.
1:26:49We'd walk out, I guess, with Lee and have George stand back there and just say, we've announced it.
1:26:55You'd have to have kept to it.
1:26:57You'd have to have kept to it.
1:26:58I mean, you'd have to make, and then you would go on.
1:27:02And I just said, I'm here to tell you, Secretary of Commerce, leave it to Kevin.
1:27:07Say whatever you want to say about it.
1:27:08And just say it.
1:27:10And then you'd make a statement to it.
1:27:12And I'll make a statement.
1:27:13That's true.
1:27:15Should I leave at that point?
1:27:17No.
1:27:17No, I should stand while you make a statement.
1:27:20Well, you ought to, and I'm just thinking out loud now, you ought to, you see, anything you say with regard to supporting me, I probably shouldn't be around.
1:27:29No.
1:27:29Well, what you might do then, you might say, he's leaving, and I'm going to present to you his successor.
1:27:35And I'm going to present to you his successor.
1:27:37And then you can say what you want to about each of us.
1:27:44And I'm sorry to go there, but I agree with most of the questions you might have.
1:27:49I think that knows us sometimes.
1:27:53That's fine.
1:27:57That's fine.
1:28:00And I don't...
1:28:00I think that it'll be a...
1:28:03It'd be quite a shock.
1:28:05It's going to be a shock.
1:28:07It'll be a shock.
1:28:08Well, you know, John, you're not...
1:28:13but you know it damn well, and you're considered to be a strong man in this country.
1:28:19Hell is true.
1:28:20It's not going to rule.
1:28:21It's just damn true.
1:28:22On the other hand, it would be great with a sire to lead in a lot of quarters, too, so not in the courts.
1:28:28Well, that may be, but I swear, I don't care about it.
1:28:36But it will go.
1:28:38Now, as a practical matter,
1:28:44I need it to be sharp for a few days, maybe a day, or most of the week.
1:28:50I would make it be that on, I think, for two or three days.
1:28:57And then there'd be speculation and stories about it.
1:28:59Right.
1:29:00That's not bad either.
1:29:01But that isn't bad.
1:29:04And frankly, it'll have quite a shock in Texas.
1:29:06Yes.
1:29:06But that's all right.
1:29:07You can handle that.
1:29:09I'm not worried about that.
1:29:11I'm not worried about that.
1:29:12That's all right.
1:29:15And let me, you know, I just say, they said, well, does this mean you're out of public life?
1:29:25I said, no, it doesn't mean that at all.
1:29:27They said, no, it doesn't mean that.
1:29:30I said, it just means that I, you know, they push me.
1:29:33I'm going to say, look, my coming was a very unexpected thing.
1:29:38I had been out of it.
1:29:39public life in less than two years.
1:29:41I didn't expect to come.
1:29:42I didn't expect to come.
1:29:43I didn't want to come.
1:29:44I didn't plan to come.
1:29:45I came to try to help the president.
1:29:47And I came at a very great personal sacrifice.
1:29:50Since then, there have been some family, I'm not talking about out here, but at follow-up service, if I say it.
1:29:56I just say it.
1:29:58It makes me very impressed that you can say that out here.
1:30:01Well, there have been some changes in my family.
1:30:05But I have some family commitments and family problems.
1:30:09and personal problems, and I don't have to devote some attention to them.
1:30:13And I think it's going to mean that I'm proud that you've accomplished the goal that the President asked you to accomplish, and that others will carry on, and that you'll be available.
1:30:23You might say, the President is, that you will be available for some assignment in the future.
1:30:29You might say some assignment in the future, full-time.
1:30:33That's a good thing to hang out there, too.
1:30:35Sure, I'd just love to speculate on that, too.
1:30:37But I don't, and frankly, I would like to go into this, Paul.
1:30:41Part of this is, well, and I'd like to be in a position where my advice to you is not subject to being questioned in terms of a parochial interest of the Treasury or any particular problem or personalities.
1:31:00Now, and inevitably, when we get in this, let me say that I would quote, I don't want to get into your personal plans, but I would quote that, you know, let's say,
1:33:05I feel very good about what's happening.
1:33:11On the international monetary front, we can do more than lay the groundwork this year anyway.
1:33:18China has an election.
1:33:19We have an election.
1:33:20Canada has an election.
1:33:23Great Britain's going in.
1:33:25Europe's in trouble.
1:33:25Great Britain's going in the common market.
1:33:27So that will happen through January, finally.
1:33:30So then this is a year to hold our government.
1:33:32This is a year just where we're not going to do anything except lay the precedent for it.
1:33:37That's all.
1:33:37You can't get an agreement.
1:33:39So I'm just not needed for that.
1:33:42I'm just, now, and George Schultz can do that equally as well or better than I could.
1:33:48Well, I'm not sure that he couldn't do it.
1:33:50He couldn't have done it.
1:33:52It's what you did.
1:33:54Well, it's all right, but that's over.
1:33:55And you're not going to have that day.
1:33:57You got it.
1:33:58I see.
1:33:58George can understand the problem.
1:34:00But, you know, the inability to bring those bastards together, Mr. Armstrong, or like Barbara told me, he says, nobody could have done it.
1:34:06He's right.
1:34:08But we're not going to have that day.
1:34:09You don't have anything like that in the shop.
1:34:12Because we can't get that far.
1:34:14Now, on the domestic front, I think you're in great shape.
1:34:17I think you've got one real problem coming up.
1:34:20And this is basically spending in the deficit.
1:34:23I've got to get on the hook.
1:34:25I'm talking to somebody who's been through a lot of trouble.
1:34:30George is here to memorandum.
1:34:32To me, he's probably the wrong guy.
1:34:34But my point is, if you just memorandum and say, looking ahead, it looks pretty bad.
1:34:40well i think that's my point is let me tell you about it that's my idea either way if you lose the election of course you always submit a budget you win the election the difference is that when you win when you lose it you just put something else up for the other guy to shoot at but in my view john
1:35:10We're going to drop off family assistance, flush it, the whole welfare crap.
1:35:15We're going to drop that revenue sharing, flush it, let it go.
1:35:19Defense is going to be harder depending on what we give to the Soviet and the Sun.
1:35:23Well, you ought to put a lot of base flows into it.
1:35:27Well, we could have some base flows that you're going to get away with.
1:35:30What I meant is we could do it then.
1:35:31I don't think we should do it for now.
1:35:32Oh, I agree with that.
1:35:33But I've got to get that plan laid, and then we're going to talk about it.
1:35:38Oh, we can close the basis of contact.
1:35:39We can trim that.
1:35:41And also, get the damn Air Force on the side, the goddamn Air Forces.
1:35:44The whole main flight, I mean, missiles are going to be taken in.
1:35:48And there isn't going to be another war in Vietnam.
1:35:51You know that.
1:35:52The United States is not going to be involved in any other war like that.
1:35:55The only thing that you can't compromise on is the Navy.
1:35:58The Navy, we've got to keep it.
1:35:59Do you agree with that issue?
1:36:01and you have to keep your missile capability wherever it is.
1:36:07With regard to other things, I think we ought to cut back on the government education budget, particularly higher education.
1:36:14I think we ought to act frank as far as the other departments.
1:36:19There isn't a hell of a lot in them, you know, considering what you can get back.
1:36:24Agriculture.
1:36:27but basically this is the time for a hell of a prosperity budget yes it is and you really want to sell because you're going to be served you have to live with it that's right and you realize that either way if we should lose the election
1:36:48If we put one out there, we'd be proud of it.
1:36:50If we wouldn't, we've got to live with it.
1:36:52And we are going to put it down to them.
1:36:54That's all.
1:36:54I've got everything that's to that.
1:36:58Let me ask one.
1:36:58Yeah, go ahead.
1:37:00On the economic front, I read the papers of SmartPak at this time.
1:37:06I read the New York Times and the GNP and I read the Post.
1:37:11And I look back and I thought, Christ, I'm not reading the same story.
1:37:15The goddamn Washington Post made it appear as if it was a very bad first quarter.
1:37:19Those sons of bitches can twist anything they can.
1:37:21They really can.
1:37:22And do.
1:37:23They are awful.
1:37:25But at the time, it was still a good story.
1:37:28The inflation was not good.
1:37:29But we all knew that.
1:37:30Sure.
1:37:32Well, this was the bull that we knew was coming.
1:37:34Both in prices and wages.
1:37:37But the whole set of price index last 10 days ago, if you recall, went up one tenth of one percent.
1:37:44Now this indicates that CPI ought to be down this way.
1:37:49So anyway, I think as the year goes along, you can take whatever steps are necessary.
1:37:55That's the whole point.
1:37:56You have the mechanism.
1:37:57What I think we ought to do, and what Grayson ought to do, is to announce in the value of the corporate profits, zero price increases.
1:38:06Period.
1:38:07Zero.
1:38:08Right away after the month.
1:38:10Maybe right away.
1:38:12Zero price increases except in hardship cases and so forth, which they have to come in for anyway.
1:38:17Cut out all the price options for them and ask for what the profits are going to be.
1:38:23How is that going to keep them offended?
1:38:25But anyway, the point is that the mechanism is there.
1:38:28And the momentum is there.
1:38:30You're going to have my fall and my death.
1:38:33You're going to have a hell of a boom.
1:38:38your problem actually is going to be inflation.
1:38:40And you can handle it.
1:38:42And you have to go through this budget you were talking about and the spending programs you were talking about.
1:38:47But now, we've had in the last year two and a half million new jobs created in this country.
1:38:53And no diminution in the number of unemployed, but that has to stop sometime.
1:38:57These people have to quit entering the labor force sometime.
1:39:00And then you're going to begin to pick that up.
1:39:03Pick it up fast.
1:39:04But we're beginning to get companies saying, we're closing our plants in England, we're going to produce at home.
1:39:10Are they?
1:39:10Oh, sure.
1:39:11And I've called all the automobile manufacturers, and they say, well, we've done expanding in Canada, but we're not going to expand in the United States.
1:39:19We're not going to expand anymore, and so forth.
1:39:22So this over the next year or two, I've accumulated the fact, I think by fall, that this whole economy is moving.
1:39:29And I really mean that.
1:39:31And you're going to have to take this thing to the toughest one who's going to be on this tax reform thing.
1:39:38I told him basically that I thought that you ought to be for tax reform, that you ought to basically be for simplification of taxes, without trying to be too specific.
1:39:49Just be for simplification.
1:39:51Part of what the problem is is it's damn complex.
1:39:55People can't figure it out.
1:39:58but that you ought to be for tax reform next year, not this year.
1:40:01And just frankly say that you're not going to be for tax reform in a political year.
1:40:06Now, on the property tax thing, let me tell you what I thought I had that occurred to me.
1:40:10I think we ought to flush revenue sharing.
1:40:13The money we do is confused.
1:40:19whatever part of that money.
1:40:24Now listen, the revenue share in that space is a good idea.
1:40:30It basically, there isn't a goddamn vote in it.
1:40:34And frankly, these cities and states will be better off to get off their ass and cut their own budgets.
1:40:38Do you agree with that?
1:40:40I think we ought to just give the money to the folks.
1:40:43Does that make any sense?
1:40:44I should, if you could, get it down to it.
1:40:47But, of course, the welfare reform, I'm sure, doesn't displease you.
1:40:50I'm not happy about it anyway.
1:40:52I think bandages was a pretty good idea, but at the present time, I'm greatly concerned about adding anyone into welfare roles.
1:41:00You know, and I think of my own parents, and I think probably of yours.
1:42:55We don't have enough people to think that way.
1:42:57I mean, people today think it's a matter of the right.
1:43:00You know, they sure do.
1:43:01Now, I must admit, during the Depression, a hell of a lot of people had to, you know, take public welfare.
1:43:08I understand that.
1:43:10But that's one thing.
1:43:11But where, on the other hand, a person is able to work, and he can keep off, thank God, they ought to live on much less, rather than go in on the damn welfare.
1:43:21That's why I decided that this family assistance,
1:43:24I mean, Russell Long talks about it, but I feel more determined.
1:43:26He doesn't say, I just can't turn on my own door right away.
1:43:31But I feel that way.
1:43:32I feel that the character of this country requires us not to put another dead person on the welfare rolls, unless they're blind, sick, or disabled.
1:43:41Do you agree with this?
1:43:43I think we just have to really start over.
1:43:49And now is the time.
1:43:50And this fall will be the time.
1:43:52Our next year, really.
1:43:54Well, the next poach, as you say.
1:43:55That's what I mean.
1:43:56It's the do it when we're trying to do it.
1:43:58Now you're going to have to start really at cap.
1:44:00You see, Cap can do a lot of this without any exposure.
1:44:04Because he's not that well known.
1:44:06And he can be doing a lot of that work in the next several months.
1:44:10So after your election, he can have some ideas for you about where he can get this cut.
1:44:16Because it's going to take months to ferry a lot of it out.
1:44:19Every year we try.
1:44:20We try all the time.
1:44:23It's not going to be easy, but we're going to have to do it.
1:44:27Of course, I think in your next administration, as you well know, I think you have to
1:44:35really makes a very fundamental decision.
1:44:38You've got to make some tough decisions.
1:44:41They all have to go.
1:44:42How are you going to run this?
1:44:44I may keep one or two, but we're probably going to have to go.
1:44:51For example, we've got to change state, we've got to change defense.
1:44:54If Clank needs to survive, I'll keep him.
1:44:58I think he owe it to him.
1:45:00But you go down the rest of them.
1:45:02Ron has to go.
1:45:04Wolfie has to go.
1:45:06Richardson you might keep in some capacity.
1:45:08Richardson is so bright that he'd be a rock star.
1:45:11Raj Martin, not bad, but he hasn't been here long, but I'd say
1:45:18What do you think?
1:45:19He's probably...
1:45:20He's neither here nor there.
1:45:22I just don't know that much.
1:45:24He isn't much, but I know what I want to say.
1:45:27I mean, he's a hell of a politician, but he isn't much of an administrator.
1:45:31No.
1:45:31If you go down to the other line, Hodgson, nobody could be a good secretary of labor or else.
1:45:40So he's probably at it if he wants to stay, but he probably doesn't.
1:45:44And Peterson, well, I'm going to test Peterson.
1:45:48I'm going to have, in my view, the only exception would be Richardson.
1:45:55It's got to be a cabinet of total loyalists, and they've got to be, in my way of it, they've got to be conservative.
1:46:02Because I cannot have people around him.
1:46:04And then it depends on the state.
1:46:07It's another game.
1:46:08That's going to be the toughest thing to do.
1:46:10And sure, there isn't going to be crack around anymore.
1:46:13You're not going to have to beg people to do what they need to do.
1:46:15The truth of the matter is, looking at it, and this is one of the reasons why I won't look at it from the outside, you've got to make a very basic decision this year, before the first of the year, about how you're going to conduct foreign economic policy matters.
1:46:28Oh, yes.
1:46:29And I doubt that you're going to change the State Department.
1:46:31Yes, I think that's right.
1:46:33And I think you probably ought to be in state.
1:46:35But you can't put it straight in the way that it's not.
1:46:37So you've got to change that.
1:46:39You've really got to change that.
1:46:42So here's the thing that I was going to say.
1:46:49Let me talk a minute about what I sort of have in the future.
1:47:00First, let me tell you what is
1:47:06Probably the best-kept secret.
1:47:07Next to the channel crew.
1:47:17What has happened this week is... You must forget you've ever heard this.
1:47:25It'll be forgotten.
1:47:26Well, that's why I told you before.
1:47:32You should know, since we've done this,
1:48:03The exact opposite has occurred.
1:48:07Your brother has been over here.
1:48:08Rogers is not aware of the relative department at home.
1:48:13I did not see him.
1:48:15He's been over here.
1:48:15He's been in Henry's house at night.
1:48:20Everything has happened except he was in the hotline.
1:48:28And for the first time, they
1:48:32you know, for six years, first Kennedy and then Johnson, begged, squealed, arrogant, all the rest, urging the Soviet to take a role in de-escalating Vietnam, and they refused.
1:48:45They wouldn't even pass messages.
1:48:49So they sent messages saying, Russia realizes that
1:48:57We must not have a confrontation.
1:48:58They stopped all the Soviet ships because of their fear of Lockheed.
1:49:02We've had a lot of experience with them for up to a day.
1:49:07We, in turn, told them that until they meet on this kind of ground, this kind of thing occurs, that we will not bomb Heisman and Hanover or other places in North Vietnam.
1:49:26We have also told them
1:49:29You'd rather be known in a private way.
1:49:31And where it is.
1:49:32That I'm prepared to go to a blockade.
1:49:36And it's that way.
1:49:37It's not shooting blinds.
1:49:41That's exactly where you left it out.
1:49:43And this may be fleets since World War II out there.
1:49:48Now, so, Monday this week, I got the message from Frank.
1:49:54He was submitting to me.
1:49:59And I approved Kissinger going to Moscow to meet with Russia.
1:50:09The story, as you will see over the weekend, then came to the mandate of the government and Holland and me.
1:50:18Actually, he left last night.
1:50:23He will see Gershner tomorrow morning.
1:50:26Well, basically, it's, uh, that'll be tonight.
1:50:29He runs an eight-hour time difference.
1:50:32He will spend, I don't think it's hours, but we can see when he will return one day.
1:50:40He will return Sunday night.
1:50:42And possibly, if it doesn't freeze before then, and I doubt it will, he will announce the death of the monster.
1:50:49Now,
1:50:52What we have done, in order to have a sign at all that we have to have some significant progress with Vietnam, and secondly, that if there is a sign that Vietnam, of course, still will be going on, that Vietnam must be a top priority item and some progress has to be made on it.
1:51:18The President cannot go to Vietnam, go to Moscow,
1:51:22uh with russian tanks and russian guns fueling an armistice and invasion of south vietnam and the president is prepared to risk the sun for this so that's the deal now that's going to have quite an impact on these goddamn doves we announced that on sunday monday if we do
1:51:47Because right at the time, you see, he's gone over there and talking.
1:51:50I thought we'd get out, but I don't know.
1:51:52They were going to be tough as hell, I guess, to do the long amaranthic thing.
1:51:56That's what I was doing here.
1:51:58I dictated the last time at 3 o'clock, because I wasn't satisfied with his talking points.
1:52:02They were too long.
1:52:04I said, be direct, be blunt, and say it out loud.
1:52:06You can do everything you want at the time.
1:52:08The president will meet you halfway, but we can't do anything unless you do something.
1:52:11I'll give none of them.
1:52:13So it's going to be very tricky, and we're going to find out.
1:52:15Now, if they don't do anything in Vietnam, if they full-blast you, they don't do anything, then we're going to be up against the hard spot.
1:52:25The hard spot will be that we may have to go to a blockade, because we cannot bluff on this and not carry it out, no.
1:52:37And if we go to the blockade, there will be all the hell to pay around here.
1:52:42But we will, you know what I mean, rioters and all that sort of thing.
1:52:46But we'll put them on the bases that we're going to retain until they withdraw their forces to South Vietnam and return our people to others.
1:52:58Now that's going to be, that's the game we're playing now.
1:53:01It's an enormously tough game, it's true.
1:53:03Because you see, the thing where the South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese misjudge, and where Moscow misjudge,
1:53:11is that they thought that because of the political situation that I came from, Ms. Johnson did, and they were even on the political side and they were quite correct, but what they didn't realize is that I know that nobody can be president of this country and have a viable foreign policy if the United States suffers a defeat
1:53:36fighting a miserable little communist country fueled by Soviet arms, and that the world is going to be a very dangerous place to live if the Soviets succeeds here, if it tries the Mideast, if it tries everywhere else, and the United States will roll over by death.
1:53:53So therefore, this is the supreme test.
1:53:56The difference in my approach, however, to Johnson's Johnson first wouldn't say this, you know, he never did the Soviet arm, but the difference in my approach is that you should know
1:54:06is that I just made a decision.
1:54:06I made it actually.
1:54:07I made it when I ordered the bombing of Anaheim.
1:54:09Henry was sitting there and he was saying, I must warn you.
1:54:15I would talk to Mr. President.
1:54:17He said, this is a disposition of this government.
1:54:20He says, win or lose.
1:54:23I said, now look, forget win or lose.
1:54:25I said, we're going to win.
1:54:26I said, I didn't lose.
1:54:28But I said, this country's going to win.
1:54:31That's the decision I made.
1:54:32That's why I bought it.
1:54:34And I decided that I don't give a damn.
1:54:39If I win the election at the cost of losing the war, then it's a worry to me.
1:54:48Because I don't believe in anybody who serves as president after he lost this war, and before he lost it.
1:54:54That's my belief.
1:54:56If, on the other hand, I lose the election,
1:54:58Because what I've done to win the war, at least there'll be a chance that whoever succeeds will have a chance.
1:55:03And that's as cold-blooded as that part.
1:55:06So that's my attitude, and that's what we're going to do.
1:55:12Well, I think it's very courageous.
1:55:14Well, it's the position that you've taken.
1:55:16It's right.
1:55:17I think it is right.
1:55:18I think it's absolutely right.
1:55:21And I believe that it'll be political to your advantage and not to your detriment.
1:55:29There is a reward for courage alone, even though there may not be support or even taking a position.
1:55:36But obviously, people recognize that you're not doing this
1:55:42Because you think it's politically interesting.
1:55:44Well, it's easier to write better things than to run out and say, look, I don't want to jeopardize the Soviets.
1:55:48I don't want to jeopardize them.
1:55:50Marcos trip to Peking.
1:55:51That's right.
1:55:51So we'll just let South Vietnam fall and not let us be pushed, you know.
1:55:57And everybody needs to see about Korea.
1:55:58But people have an amazing ability to perceive things.
1:56:02Do you think they do?
1:56:04Oh, absolutely.
1:56:04I absolutely do.
1:56:06And they are, in my judgment, they're going to interpret this the way it ought to be interpreted.
1:56:11And I don't have any fear.
1:56:12I don't care what you'll grab for these columns, right?
1:56:14American people have an incredible ability to look through and to see things and to reach the right decision for themselves over time.
1:56:22Now, they make mistakes in the short run at times.
1:56:26But over the long run, they've had a long time to think about this.
1:56:29And when you take the actions that you do,
1:56:32Their reaction is going to be, it can't be in your personal interest, that you're doing it in the interest of this country, that you're doing it in the interest of bringing peace, because you've convinced everybody that you're trying to bring peace to this world.
1:56:41Too much.
1:56:42Too much.
1:56:44And I think it's going to be down to your political benefit, very frankly.
1:56:47Now that we've come to the point I was going to make, that seems to be far afield from that one, which is directionally related,
1:56:58You know, having made this decision, and I'm not talking too much about this, but I think you should know because we once talked about this before.
1:57:11I have to think in terms, John, of who will be here in case I fail.
1:57:16And I've got to think in terms of both Republicans and Democrats and so on.
1:57:21Now we've got to put it in pretty culture.
1:57:28Well, let me start.
2:18:43You see, the thing is, the presidency requires, as this decision I just made, although it's all been horrific, but, you know, in a sense, it's more difficult than the World War II decisions.
2:18:56Then, the United States knew goddamn well we were going to win.
2:18:59We had no other choice.
2:19:01We put everything in.
2:19:02You notice the number of sorties, and Henry was saying, you know, we're going to have 800 sorties over the Vietnam area.
2:19:08And he says, that's three times what we had before I wrote this decision.
2:19:13And I said, Henry, don't tell me that's so goddamn much.
2:19:18I said, you know how many they had on D-Day?
2:19:2214,000 sorties.
2:19:23He said, yes.
2:19:25And he said, we dropped more bombs.
2:19:29And I said, all right, just remember, if the United States gets going, we can do a lot.
2:19:31But my point about the whole thing is that I think that at the present time,
2:19:42the likes of Rush, who was a brutal thug, and knows what he wants.
2:19:48And you're up against a Joe Imani in 1973, and he'll be succeeding the rest of the way, probably as clever.
2:19:55I'm also telling you, he'll pass, he said to you.
2:19:59But who is brilliant, sophisticated, and clever in the rest.
2:20:03And if John, who cannot risk putting a foe into this position, who is not a strong man,
2:20:10This country needs a strong president.
2:20:12That's my view.
2:20:12You can't take a weak president.
2:20:16God, I think that's particularly true now.
2:25:16I mean, I'll tell you, you're a key when you say you're going to blockade High Palm until the prisoners return.
2:25:23Yeah, that's a real key.
2:25:25When we get to that point, let me say, we'll do it.
2:25:28And it's that only if we don't get satisfaction.
2:25:35If we don't get satisfaction.
2:25:36You see, we may get a cooling if the son of the bailiff and the intruder arrest one another and ask for the ransom.
2:25:43And the prisoner issue begins with involvement.
2:25:53Thank you.
2:25:54Oh, is that meeting in there?
2:25:55Yes, sir.
2:25:56You're supposed to be in it, you know.
2:26:00You know what it is?
2:26:01That's a catalog.
2:26:03Yes, I'm told I'm not going to be there.
2:26:05Don't bother.
2:26:06It's a 15-minute meeting.
2:26:07Yes, sir.
2:26:08Walter is just going to deliver his report to you.
2:26:11I think you're doing the best in 15 minutes.
2:26:14The group is small enough so that you can have them in here if you'd like.
2:26:17However, they're already set up.
2:26:19Well, it's a little more difficult to get them.
2:26:23Yeah, yeah, well, fine, fine, I'll walk over and see him.
2:26:26Thank you, President.
2:26:27Well, why don't we leave it this way?
2:26:29If you would, I'll, he's got problems with notification and all that sort of thing, you know, he's got a little on our, and not until, as far as Schultz is concerned, I'm not going to draw him to the day before, but not until the day before.

Nixon, Connally & Bull on Vietnam War and Treasury Department

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